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In this episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore one of Scripture's most fascinating puzzles: the parable of the lost sheep appears in both Luke 15 and Matthew 18, yet teaches dramatically different lessons depending on its context. In Luke, it defends Christ's mission to seek the lost and exposes Pharisaic self-righteousness. In Matthew, it becomes a pastoral manual for church discipline, humility, and restoration. This conversation challenges the common assumption that parables have only one meaning and demonstrates how the same story can illuminate multiple theological truths. The hosts unpack the scandalous grace woven throughout both accounts while wrestling with practical implications for church life, confrontation, and the celebration of repentance within the covenant community.
One of the most significant insights from this episode is the recognition that the parable of the lost sheep serves distinct theological purposes in Luke 15 and Matthew 18. In Luke, Jesus tells the parable to Pharisees and scribes who criticize Him for welcoming sinners—the lost sheep represents those outside the covenant community whom Christ seeks. In Matthew, however, Jesus addresses His disciples within the context of kingdom life, and the lost sheep represents a believer who has wandered from the fold. This contextual shift demonstrates that parables are not rigid allegories with single meanings but flexible teaching tools that illuminate different facets of divine truth. The hosts argue that this reality should free interpreters from overly narrow readings and encourage careful attention to literary setting, audience, and surrounding discourse when seeking to understand Jesus' teaching.
In Matthew 18, the parable of the lost sheep (vv. 12-14) is not an isolated story but a theological foundation for the church discipline instructions that immediately follow (vv. 15-20). By emphasizing the shepherd's joy in recovering the one lost sheep and stating that it is not God's will for any "little one" to perish, Jesus prepares His disciples to approach confrontation with a restorative rather than punitive mindset. The language of "gaining your brother" (v. 15) echoes the recovery theme of the parable—confrontation is rescue, not victory. This connection is often missed because English Bible headings create visual breaks between verses 14 and 15, obscuring their flow. When read together without interruption, the passage reveals that every step of church discipline—from private conversation to final excommunication—must be undertaken with the Father's heart, which longs for the wanderer's return rather than their expulsion.
The promise in Matthew 18:20—"where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them"—is frequently misapplied as a general encouragement for small prayer groups or house churches. While Christ's omnipresence certainly validates such gatherings, the primary context of this verse is judicial and ecclesiastical. The "two or three" echoes the Old Testament requirement for multiple witnesses in matters requiring serious judgment (Deuteronomy 19:15), and the phrase appears at the climax of Jesus' teaching on church discipline. Christ is promising His authorizing presence specifically during the church's most difficult and painful work: confronting sin, evaluating repentance, and when necessary, declaring someone outside the visible church. This is both sobering and comforting—sobering because it reminds us that church discipline carries divine weight, and comforting because Christ does not leave His church alone in this weighty task but stands in the midst of the assembly, confirming its righteous judgments and sustaining its members through heartbreak.
"This almost proves the idea that parables have one meaning just isn't really real...a single parable with the same words can have multiple, at the very least, can have multiple gradations of meaning." — Tony Arsenal
"The scandal here is that it's not God's will that any one of these little ones should be lost. And that sometimes, I think, in the midst of great conflict feels scandalous." — Jesse Schwamb
"Gaining your brother frames confrontation as rescue...discipline begins maybe actually all the way through as pastoral care. It's not public shaming." — Jesse Schwamb
[The complete, unedited transcript of the episode would be included here for reference and accessibility.]
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In a theological landscape that often softens sin into "brokenness," Episode 480 re-establishes the biblical category of sin as debt. Jesse Schwamb takes us into the house of Simon the Pharisee to analyze the Parable of the Two Debtors. The central argument is forensic: sin creates an objective liability against God’s justice that no amount of human currency—tears, works, or religious heritage—can satisfy. We explore the critical distinction between the cause of justification (God’s free grace) and the evidence of justification (love and repentance). This episode dismantles the self-righteous math of the Pharisee and points us to the only currency God accepts: the finished work of Christ.
To understand Luke 7, we must understand money. Money is a system of credit accounts and their clearing. When we apply this to theology, we realize that "religious effort" is a currency that God does not accept. We are like travelers trying to pay a US debt with Zimbabwean dollars. The Gospel is the news that Christ has entered the market with the only currency that satisfies the Father—His own righteousness—and has cleared the accounts of those who are spiritually bankrupt.
Simon the Pharisee wasn't condemned because he wasn't a sinner; he was condemned because he thought his debt was manageable. He believed he had "surplus righteousness." This is the deadly error of legalism. By assuming he owed little, he loved little. He treated Jesus as a guest to be evaluated rather than a Savior to be worshipped. A low view of our own sin inevitably leads to a low view of Christ’s glory.
The woman in the passage demonstrates what Reformed theologians call "evangelical obedience"—obedience that flows from faith and gratitude, not from a desire to earn merit. Her tears did not wash away her sins; the blood of Christ did that. Her tears were the overflow of a heart that realized the mortgage had been burned. We must never confuse the fruit of salvation with the root of salvation.
Tears don't cancel the ledger. Christ does that. Tears are what debtors do when Mercy lands.
Grace received produces love expressed.
A creditor doesn't need to be convinced you did harm. The ledger already stands.
[00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 480 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for those with ears to hear. Hey, brothers and sisters, how great is it that we have these incredible teachings of Jesus? Can we talk about that for a second? Tony and I have loved hanging out in these parables with you all, and Tony will be back next week.
Don't you worry. But in the meantime, I've got another parable for us to consider, and I figured we would just get. Straight to the points, but I have to let you in in a little secret first, and that is not even Tony knows until he hears this, which parable I've selected for us to chat about. And I knew that there might come a time where I would be able to sneak in with this parable because I love.
This parable, and I love it because it's so beautiful in communicating the full breadth and scope of the gospel of God's grace and his mercy for all of his children. And it just makes sense to me, and part of the reason why it makes so much sense to me is. The topic which is embedded in this is something that more or less I've kind of built my career around, and so it just resonates with me.
It makes complete sense. I understand it inside and out. I feel a connection to what Jesus is saying here very predominantly because the topic at hand means so much to me, and I've seen it play out in the world over and over and over again. So if that wasn't enough buildup and you're not ready, I have no idea what will get you prepared, but we're going to go hang out in Luke chapter seven, and before I even give you a hint as to what this amazing, the really brief parable is, it does take a little bit of setup, but rather than me doing the setup.
What do you say if we just go to the scriptures? Let's just let God's word set up the environment in which this parable is gonna unfold. And like a good movie or a good narrative, even as you hear this, you might be pulled in the direction of the topic that you know is coming. And so I say to you, wait for it.
Wait for it is coming.
[00:03:20] Jesse Schwamb: So this is Luke's book, his gospel chapter seven, beginning in verse 36. Now one of the Pharisees was asking Jesus to eat with him, and Jesus entered the Pharisees house and reclined at the table. And behold, there was a woman in the city who was a sinner, and when she learned that he was reclining at the table in the Pharisees house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume.
And standing behind him at his feet crying. She began to wet his feet with her tears, and she kept wiping them with her hair over her head and kissing his feet and anointing them with perfume. Now, in the Pharisee, who had invited him, saw this, he said to himself saying, if this man were, he would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching him, that she is a sinner.
Let's stop there for a second. So this incredible dinner party that Jesus attends and here is this woman. Well, all we're told is that she's a woman who's identified as a sinner. Clearly moved by the presence of Jesus clearly wanting to worship him in a very particular way. By the way, loved ones. Can we address the fact that this goes back to something Tony and I have been talking about, I dunno, for like seven episodes now, which is coming outta Luke chapter 15.
This idea that sinners, the marginalized, the outcasts, the down and out, they were drawn to Jesus. Something about him, his presence, the power of his teaching drew them in, but in a way that invited vulnerability, this kind of overwhelming response to who he was. And what his mission was. And so here maybe is like any other occurrence that happened in Jesus' day, maybe like a million other accounts that are not recorded in the scriptures.
But here's one for us to appreciate that. Here's this woman coming, and her response is to weep before him, and then with these tears, to use them to wash his feet and to anoint him with this precious perfume. Now, there's a lot of people at this dinner party. At least we're led to believe. There's many, and there's one Pharisee in particular whose home this was.
It was Simon. And so out of this particular little vignette, there's so much we could probably talk about. But of course what we see here is that the Pharisee who invited him, Simon, he sees this going on. He does not address it verbally, but he has his own opinions, he's got thoughts and he's thinking them.
And so out of all of that, then there's a pause. And I, I would imagine that if we were to find ourselves in that situation, maybe we'd be feeling the tension of this. It would be awkward, I think. And so here we have Jesus coming in and giving them this account, this parable, and I wanna read the parable in its entirety.
It's very, very short, but it gives us a full sense of both. Like what's happening here? It's both what's happening, what's not happening, what's being. Presented plain for us to see what's below the surface that Jesus is going to reveal, which is both a reflection on Simon and a reflection on us as well.
[00:06:18] Jesse Schwamb: So picking up in, in verse 40, and Jesus answered and said to him, Simon, I owe something to say to you. And he replied, say it, teacher a money lender had two debtors, one owned 500 in RI and the other 50. When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?
Simon answered and said, I suppose the one who he graciously forgave more, and he said to him, you have judged correctly and turning toward the woman. He said to Simon, do you see this woman? I entered your house? You gave me no water from my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
You gave me no kiss, but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she anointed my feet with perfume. For this reason, I say to you her sins, which are many have been forgiven for. She loved much, but he who is forgiven, little loves little. Then he said to her, your sins have been forgiven, and those were reclining at the table.
With him began to say to themselves, who is this man who even forgives sins? And he said to the woman, your faith has saved you. Go in peace.
[00:07:42] Jesse Schwamb: What a beautiful, tiny, deep, amazing instruction from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So in this just short 10 verses here, it's we're sitting inside. This dinner at Simon, the Pharisees house, and a woman known publicly only as a sinner, has shown some striking love toward Jesus, and Jesus explains her actions.
Then through this mini parable of debt, two debtors, one creditor, neither can pay. Both are freely forgiven. Love flows. Then from that forgiveness. And so there's a lot within the reform theological spectrum here that helps us to really understand. I think the essential principles of what's going on here, and I just wanna hit on some of those and chat with you about those and hopefully encourage you in those as I'm trying to encourage myself.
First, we get some sense about what sin really is like. We get a sense of the inability to cope with sin. We get the free forgiveness that's grounded in Christ, in Christ alone, and we get this idea of love and repentance as the fruit or the evidence, not the cause of justification. Now to set this whole thing up.
[00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: I do think it's so important for us to talk about money for a second, not money, like we're gonna have a budget talk, not what you spend on groceries or your vacation, not even what you do in terms of planning for your retirement or what you give to the church in way of tithe than offering none of that.
I'm actually more interested to talk to you about money itself. One of the things I love to ask people. Especially when I was teaching students in money and finance is the question, what is money? And I bet you if you and I were hanging out across the kitchen table and I asked you, what is money? I'm guessing you would go in one or two directions.
Either you would gimme examples of money, types of money. You might talk about the US dollar or the Zimbabwean dollar, or the Euro or the Yuan. That would be correct in a way, but really that's just symptomatic of money because that's just an example or a type of some money that you might use. And of course those definitions are not ubiquitous because if I take my US dollars and I go travel to see our Scott brothers and sisters, more than likely that money.
That currency, those dollars will not be accepted in kind. There'd have to be some kind of translation because they're not acceptable in that parts of the world. That's true of most types of money. Or you might go to talking about precious metals and the price of gold or silver and how somehow these seem to be above and beyond the different types of currency or paper, currency in our communities and around our world.
And of course, you'd be right as an example of a type of money, but. Gold itself, if you press on it, is not just money, it's describing as some kind of definition of what money is. The second direction you might take is you might describe for me all the things that money is like its attributes. Well, it must be accepted generally as a form of currency.
It might must be used to discharge debt or to pay taxes, or it must have a store of value and be able to be used as a medium of exchange. And you would be correct about all of those things as well because. Probably, whether you know it or not, you're an expert in money because you have to use it in some way to transact in this lifetime.
But even those are again, just attributes. It's not what money is in its essential first principle. So this is not like an economics lecture, I promise, but I think it is something that Jesus is actually truly drawing us to, and that is the best definition of money I can give, is money is a system of credit accounts and their clearing.
It's a whole system of credit accounts and their clearing. So think of it like this, every time you need something from somebody else. Anytime you wanna buy something or you wanna sell something, what's happening there is somebody is creating a claim. So let's say that I go to the grocery store and I fill up the cart with all kinds of fruits and vegetables and meats, and I'm at the counter to check out.
What I've just done is said that I have all of these things I would like to take from the grocery store, and now the grocery store has some kind of claim because they're handing them over to me and I need a way to settle that claim. And the way that I settle that claim is using money. It is the method that allows us to settle those transactions.
And in my particular instance, it's going to be the US dollar, or maybe it's just ones and zeros electronically, of course representing US dollars. But in this case, the way I settle it is with money and a particular type of money. But, and I want you to keep this in mind 'cause we're gonna come back to it.
This is my whole setup for this whole thing. The reason why this is important is because you have to have the type of money. That will settle the debt or settle the creditor. You have to have the thing itself that the creditor demands so that you can be a hundred percent released from the claim that they have on you.
If you do not have exactly a. The type of money that they desire, then the debt will not be released. The creditor will not be satisfied. You will not go free, and that it's so critically important.
[00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: I think it's just like this really plain backdrop to what's happening here When Jesus addresses Simon with this whole parable.
So he starts this whole idea by saying to Simon that he is something to say to him, which I think in a way is profound anyway, because Simon invites him to speak. But Jesus here is taking the initiative. Simon is the host. He socially, as it were, above this sinful woman. But Jesus becomes the true examiner of the heart in this parable.
What we have is. Christ's word interrupts self-justifying narratives, and clearly there was a self-justifying narrative going on in Simon's head. We know this because we're privy to his thoughts in the text here. The gospel does not wait here for the Pharisee to figure it out, the gospel lovingly correct.
Always goes in, always initiates, always intervenes as Christ intercedes. And here, before any accounting happens, Jesus sets the terms. God is the one who names the debt, not the debtor. And this really is probably the beating hearts, the center of gravity of this whole exchange. I love that Jesus goes to this parable.
Of a money lender, a money lender who had two debtors, one owned, 500, one owned 50. Now of course, I would argue that really, you can put this in any currency, you can translate into modern terms, you can adjust it for inflation. It doesn't really matter. What we have here is one relatively small debt, another debt 10 times the size.
So one small, one large, and that's the juxtaposition. That's the whole setup here. And I would submit to you something super important that Jesus does here, which flies in the face of a lot of kind of just general wishy-washy evangelicalism that teaches us somehow that sin is just not doing it quite right, or is just a little brokenness, or is just in some way just slightly suboptimal or missing the mark.
It is those things, but it is not the entirety of those things because what's clear here is that Jesus frames sin as debt. In other words, it's an objective liability. A liability is just simply something of value that you owe to somebody else. And I am going to presume that almost everybody within an earshot of my voice here all over the world has at some point incurred debt.
And I think there's, there's lots of great and productive reasons to incur debt. Debt itself is not pejorative. That would be a whole nother podcast. We could talk about. Maybe Tony and I sometime, but. What is true is that debt is an objective liability. The amounts differ, but both are genuinely in the red here.
And what's critical about this is that because debt is this objective reality, whenever you enter into an arrangement of debt, let's say that you borrow some money to purchase a car or home or simply to make some kind of purchase in your life, that's unsecured debt. In all of those cases, the. The one lending you the money, the creditor now has a claim on you.
What's important to understand here is that this kind of thing changes it. It provides way more color and contrast to really the effects of what sin is and what sin does in its natural accountability. And so in this way we have this nuance that there are differences in outward sin and its social consequences.
That is for sure that's how life works, but all sin is ultimately against God and makes us debtors to divine justice. That is now God has a claim against us. And this shouldn't make sense because unless we are able to satisfy that claim, all have that claim against them all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
And as a result of this, it's not just that we somehow have lived a way that is just slightly off the mark and suboptimal, but instead that we've heaped up or accumulated for ourselves an objective liability, which is truly. Owed to God and because it is truly owed him, he's the one who can only truly satisfy it.
This is why the scripture speak of God as being both just and justifier. That is a just creditor ensures that the debt is paid before it is released, and the one who is justifier is the one who pays that debt to ensure it will be released. God does both of these things through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Praise be to his name. So here we have a really true understanding. Of what sin is. There's no mincing of words here. There's a ubiquity in all of our worlds about money lending and borrowing, and Christ leans into that heavily. We know for a fact that the ancient Mesopotamians learned how to calculate interests before they figured out to put wheels on car.
And so this idea of lending and borrowing and indebtedness, this whole concept has an ancient pedigree, and Jesus leans into this. And so we have this really lovely and timeless example of drawing in the spiritual state into the very physical or financial state to help us understand truly what it means when we incur sin.
Sin is not easily discharged, and just like debt, it stands over us, has a claim on us, and we need somebody to satisfy that claim on our behalf. By the way, this gets me back to this reoccurring theme of we need the right currency, we need the right money, as it were to satisfy this debt only that which is acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Our Lord, by the power of the Holy Spirit is what will be acceptable in payment in full for this kind of debt. And so that's again, this whole setup, it's the spiritual realm being immediately kind of dragged into this corporal reality of the balance sheet, assets and liabilities, things of value that we owe to someone else.
[00:18:50] Jesse Schwamb: Notice in Luke verse 42, that the reason why it's important to understand the full ferocity, the ferocious of sin and the weight of the debt that it incurs upon us, is that it cannot be repaid no matter what. So look at both of these borrowers. Neither could repay. Neither could repay. So think about that for a second.
It doesn't even matter how much they owed. Both were way beyond their ability. It's not merely they didn't want to, but they didn't have the resources in the spiritual state. In other words, there was no surplus righteousness to pay God back and the creditor's action here is free cancellation grace, not a negotiated settlement, but free cancellation.
So whether it was 50 or 500, it was irrelevant to the fact that these borrowers just like you and I, have nothing within our means, our wherewithal to actually satisfy the this cosmic debt that we have rightfully incurred against God. And so you should be hearing this align so closely with justification By Grace, God doesn't forgive because we eventually scraped together payment.
He forgives because he's gracious and in the full biblical picture because Christ pays and bears that penalty. So this isn't, we have somehow, as you've heard, sometimes in kinda very again, wishy-washy, evangelical ways that we've somehow come forward at the right time. To receive from God some kind of gift or that we've somehow elevated ourself to the place of the deserving poor, or that we come with our own extended arms, empty, but outstretched so that we might receive something from God, in part because we make ourselves present before him, not loved ones.
It's far better than that. It's not being able to pay and Christ saying, come and buy. Not being able to put food on the table and him saying, come and eat. It's him saying, you who are thirsty, come and drink from the fountain of life freely and unreservedly. Not because you have some way deserved it, because in fact you desperately do not.
And because God has made a way in Christ a way that we could not make for ourselves, he's paid a debt that we just could not repay. It doesn't matter what it is that you think is outstanding against you. The fact of the matter is you cannot repay it. And so of course, that's why Paul writes in Ephesians, it's by grace through faith and not by works that you've been set free in the love of the Kingdom of Christ, that all of these things have been given to you by God because he loves you and because he's made a way for you.
You may remember that when Tony and I spent some time in the Lord's Prayer. That we really settled, we sunk down into what we thought was the best translation of that portion where we come to forgiving debts and forgiving debtors, and we settled on that one because we feel it's the most accurate representation of the actual language there in the text.
But two, because that language also comports with all this other teaching of Jesus, this teaching that. Emphasizes the debt nature of sin, and that when we think about the fact that we in fact have a giant loan or a lease or an outstanding obligation, something that has been that our souls ourselves in a way have been mortgaged.
And we need a freedom that breaks that mortgage, that wants to take that paper and to satisfy the payment and then to throw it into the fire so that it's gone and no more upon us. That because of all of that, it's appropriate for us to pray that we be forgiven our debts, and that, that we, when we understand that there's been a great debt upon us, that we are willing to look at others and forgive our debtors as well.
And so you'll see that in, I'd say it looks like verse 43 here, Simon answers. Jesus question appropriately. Jesus basically pegs him with this very simple, straightforward, and probably really only one answer question, which is, which one do you think loved the creditor more? Which of these borrowers was more ecstatic, which appreciated what had been done more?
And of course he says, well, the one with the larger debt, that that seems absolutely obvious. And Jesus essentially here gets Simon to pronounce judgment and then turns that judgment into a mirror. This is brilliantly what Jesus often does with these parables, and to be honest, loved ones. I think he still is doing that today with us.
Even those of us who are familiar with these parables, they're always being turned into a mirror so that when we look into the, the text we see ourselves, but like maybe whatever the opposite of like the picture of the Dorian Gray is like, well, maybe it's the same as the picture. You know, this idea that we're seeing the ugliness of ourselves in the beauty of Christ as he's presenting the gospel in this passage.
And the issue of course here is not whether you and I or Simon can do math. It's whether Simon will accept the implication and you and I as well, that we are a debtor who cannot repay. That. That's just the reality of the situation.
[00:23:44] Jesse Schwamb: And so Jesus turns then, and this is remarkable, he turns toward the woman and he compares her actions with Simon's lack of hospitality, speaking to Simon while he stares intently at the woman.
I mean, the drama unfolding in this quick small little passage is exceptional. It's extraordinary. And unlike some of the. Other teachings that we've already looked at here, there is something where Jesus is teaching and acting at the same time. That is the scripture is giving us some direct indication of his movements, of his direction, of his attentional focus.
And here there's an attentional focus on the woman while he speaks to Simon the Pharisee. And first what we find is Jesus dignifies the woman by addressing Simon about her while looking at her. He makes the sinner central and the respectable man answerable. That's wild. And there's an angle here that still leads us back to debt, which is Simon behaves like someone who thinks that he is little debt.
So he offers little love and the woman behaves like someone who knows she's been rescued from insolvency, and so she pours out gratitude. And then there's a whole host, a little list here, a litany of things that Jesus essentially accuses Simon of directly and pulls them back into this proper understanding of the outpouring of affection.
That is a fruit of justification exemplified in the woman's behavior. For instance, Simon gave no kiss, and yet here's this woman. She has not stopped kissing Jesus' feet and then wiping her feet, washing his feet with her tears.
[00:25:19] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, in that culture, Simon withheld this ordinary honor and the woman lavish is extraordinary affection.
You know, we would often call this an reformed theology, evangelical obedience. It's the kind that flows from faith and gratitude, not a plan to earn acceptance. And this is tough for us, loved ones because we want to conflate these two. It's easy to conflate these two, and we're well-meaning sometimes when we do that.
But we have to be careful in understanding that there is an appropriate response of loving worship to one who has set you free. While at the same time understanding that that loving worship never should spill over and, and into any kind of self-proclaimed pride or meritorious earning. And this woman apparently does this so exceptionally well that Jesus calls it out, that all of this is flowing from her faith and her gratitude.
Jesus says, Simon didn't anoint his head with oil and she anoints his feet with perfume again. Notice some really interesting juxtaposition in terms of the top and the bottom of the body here. Here's this woman's costly act, underscoring a pattern, grace received, produces love expressed. I love thinking of it that way.
Grace, perceived, excuse me, grace received produces love expressed.
[00:26:39] Jesse Schwamb: That is the point that Jesus is driving to here, that if we understand the gospel and the gospel tells us that there is a law. That we have transgressed and that this law has accumulated in all of this debt that we cannot pay. And so the weight of this means not just that, oh, it's, it's so hard to have debt in our lives.
Oh, it's so annoying and inconvenient. No, instead it's oppressive. This debt itself, this grand burden is over our heads, pushing down on our necks, weighting us down in every way, and especially in the spiritual realm. And because of this, we would be without hope, unless there was one who could come and release us from this debt.
And the releasing of this debt has to be, again, an A currency acceptable to the debtor, and it has to actually be paid. There's no wiping away. There's no just amnesty for the sake of absolve. Instead, it must be satisfied. And the woman here has received this kind of extraordinary grace has acknowledged, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, through opened eyes and unstopped ears and a clean heart, has been able to understand the severity of the situation.
And then this produces in her love expressed, which again is not the means of her justification, but certainly is one of the fruit of it. And Jesus explains then the reason for her response.
[00:27:58] Jesse Schwamb: The reason why Grace received produces love expressed is because she and her many sins have been forgiven. Hence, her love is great, love the one forgiven, little forgives little.
I think sometimes that verse is often misunderstood as if. Her love caused her forgiveness. But again, we want to hear clearly from Jesus on this. The logic he gives is forgiveness, leading to love. Love is evidence or fruits. And so her love is the sign that forgiveness has already been granted and is truly possessed, not the purchase price.
And Simon's Lovelessness exposes a heart still clinging to self-righteousness, acting like a small debtor who doesn't even need mercy, like one who doesn't understand that they will never, ever be able to repay the thing that is over them. You know, I love that John Val is often quoted along the lines of something like this.
Those forgiven much will love much. And in his writing to me, he captures so much of this moral psychology of grace and I think there is a psychology of grace here. There is a reasonable response. That moves us by the power of the Holy Spirit, from deep within this renewal of the man, such that we express our love to God in all kinds of ways.
I think especially in our age, on the Lord's day, in acts of singing through worship and meditation, through worship, and listening through worship and application, through worship, all of these means in particular as our expression of what it means to have been received, having received grace, producing a loving response.
[00:29:36] Jesse Schwamb: I love that all of this ends as it draws to a close. Jesus speaks these incredible words. He tells her that her sins are forgiven. You know, notice here that Christ speaks an authoritative verdict. This is justifying speech. It's God's court declaration. It's not some like mere the therapeutic. Like reassurance here.
It's not like whistling in the dark. It's Jesus himself saying This woman has been forgiven. Blessed is the one whose sins are forgiven. And of course, like so many other times in Jesus' ministry, and I have to imagine by the way, loved ones that this question got asked all the time, and not just on the occasion in which it was a court of us in scripture, but the other guests ask the right question and that question is.
Who is this? Who even forgives sins, and that is the right question. Only God can forgive sins against God. Jesus is implicitly claiming divine authority. Now, we finally arrived. This is God's currency. This is the currency or the money, so to speak, that is desperately needed, the only one acceptable to discharge the debt, the cosmic treason that has been done against God himself.
So because of that, here's Jesus making the claim that the way that you are led out, the way that you are set free is through me. So even here in the course of just this confronting Simon speaking about sin, he's also providing the way he's saying, I am this way, I am this truth. I am this life. Come through me.
[00:31:14] Jesse Schwamb: What I find amazing about this is in the beginning. With Adam and Eve, they transgress God's law. And from that day in all days forth, we have been building this massive sin, debt that we cannot repay. And part of the, the repercussions of that debt were for Adam and Eve to be driven to be Exodus as it were, out of the garden.
And ever since then, the grand narrative of the redemptive history of God's people has been an exodus instead. Not out of what is idyllic, not out of perfection, but instead. Out of sin, out of bondage, out of sin and death and the devil and the deaths that we have incurred. And so here we have Jesus representing.
He is the, the new and better Moses, he is the exodus, so to speak, who comes and grabs us by the hand almost as in the same way that the angelic representations in the story of la. And Sonor grabbed his hand to pull him, maybe even kicking him, screaming. Out of that sinful place, into the glorious light, into safety and security out from underneath this grand debt that we cannot repay.
I think of Jesus's acal meeting with Moses and Elijah on the mounts of transfiguration. That's also in Luke, right? And Luke tells us that they spoke of his deceased, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. And the word deceased there literally means Exodus. In Jesus, God would affect an infinitely greater deliverance than he had under Moses.
And then interestingly, we see that even in all the way back in Psalm 23, you know David, he's writing as a rescue sinner who has been brought out. Brought to the Heavenly Shepherd, into the security and freedom of a sheep hold in love ones I submit to you. That is what Jesus is after here. He's after it in your life and he's after in mind that there is death, and he wants to take us out from underneath that debt by paying it off that he is the rescuer, the one who is just and justifier that he's the greater Moses, and that he leads us into Exodus.
So we are transferred into the kingdom of a light. And that kingdom of light is also a kingdom of lightness in the sense that what was once a burden on our back, like it was for Pilgrim, has now been taken off. And so we are free. In that freedom, in that financial freedom, in that spiritual freedom as it were, to use both of the sides of this metaphor.
What we find is our response is appropriately one of worship, that we weep and we cry for who we were, that we rejoice for who God is, and that we come proudly into His kingdom because of what he has done. And this changes us. It messes us up. You know, I think we've said before that. The joy of the Christian life of Christian lives is that the transformation process that God undertakes in each of us is very different, and some honestly are more dramatic than others.
But what I think is always dramatic is one, the scripture tells us that it is a miracle. That even one would be saved. So hardhearted are we, and again, so great this debt against us that when God intervenes all get what they deserve. But some get mercy. And if we have been the ones who have received mercy, how joyful ought we to be toward the one who has granted it to us?
And so here we have Christ, the the one who delivers, the one who leads out, the one who pays off, the one who pays it all.
[00:34:45] Jesse Schwamb: I think what's clear is that the cross gives us this sense when we look upon it of just how deep and dark and heavy sin is, and that there is no easy way out of it. That what we find is that sin constantly wants to drag us down.
It constantly wants to take us farther than we wanted to go, and it certainly costs us way more than we were willing to pay. So I think if we come and we behold the wood, if we behold the nails, if we look on this crown pressed into the brow that knew no guilt or disobedience, if we, not in our mind's eye, but by faith, behold, the hands that open, the blind eyes now being opened by iron.
If we see the feet. Walked toward the hurting, now fixed in place for the healing of the world. If we look at the thirst of the one who is living water and the hunger of the one who is the bread of life, we ought to see the one who here, even in this passage, is just and justifier, and he invites us to say with him, come witness the death of death in the death of Jesus Christ.
That is the glorious mission, right? As as, um, Horatio Spafford said, my sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought. My sin not in part, but the whole is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. Oh my soul of ones. This is the beauty of, I think of what Jesus is, is teaching here.
It's the lamb. It's the one promise on the mountain provided in place of Isaac. It's the Passover marked with Crimson death passing over doors that were covered. Here's the suffering. Servant despised and rejected a man of sorrows. Who here is one who is truly well acquainted with grief? When we see Jesus lifted up, lifted up on the cross, lifted up between heaven and earth.
Here the instrument of exalted torment but also unexpected triumph, the perfect God man, lifted up between earth and heaven, lifted up in shame so that we might be lifted up in grace, lifted up in cursing. We might be lifted up in blessing lifted up in Forsakenness so that we might be lifted up in divine communion with God the father lifted up to be stared at as he presents himself here, so that we could finally see what sin costs and what love pays.
That is everything that he's teaching us in this passage, and I hope that you are as encouraged about this as I am because. When I think about the gospel framed in this way with the full severity of its repercussions, thinking about sin as debt objectively as a liability, that must be satisfied. My heart is instantly warmed, and I think the warming of that is not because this manufactured some kind of sentimentality around this, but there is something about this that's so resonant to me that in my professional career, in my business, I'm intimately familiar with, with debt and understanding how to manage it, but also the dangers of it.
And what a liability it truly is. And so when I hear that sin not just is like this, but is this way, it makes complete sense to me and I see that this is really the, the true way that we ought to understand, I think the gospel message.
[00:38:18] Jesse Schwamb: So here's what we should remember. Debt highlights objective guilt. I think I've said that a bunch of times and I just feel like it's, it bears repeating one last time.
Sin is not only damage, it is consequences, but it's also a liability. A creditor doesn't need to be convinced you did harm. The ledger already stands and the ledger against us is not on our side. Loved ones. We are deeply in the red, and it really doesn't matter what the balance is because we just cannot repay.
So it's really about our lack of ability, our inability, the no, we have no capability to pay this, and so it doesn't matter. We find ourselves in a place of hopelessness no matter what, and this debt highlights that inability none of these particular borrowers could repay. It's devastating to moral pride.
We lean on this in our reform theological perspective. Even our best works can't erase guilt or generate merit sufficient to square the accounts. It's impossible. It's impossible with two ways, and this is some, I think really like the beautiful nuance of what Jesus after here in the one way that we are enabled to do this.
Is because we just actually cannot earn enough. So in other words, the debt is too big. So think of the biggest number in your head that you could possibly think of, and that's at least minimally the outstanding debt. But then think about this. You don't even have the right currency. So you might find that you spend your entire lifetime working to the bone.
It's like finding out that you have a million dollar loan or lien against you, and you work hard all your life, 50, 60, 70 years. And finally, on your deathbed, you've assembled enough cash with all of your savings to put toward and finally satisfy. So you might die in peace with this $1 million free and clear from your account, and you turn over the money and the creditor says, what is this currency?
I won't accept this. I can't accept this. How debilitating. So it's not even the size of the debt. It's also that we don't have, we cannot earn the right currency. Only. God. God. I think this debt also highlights grace as cancellation. Forgiveness is not God pretending the debt doesn't exist. It is God releasing the debtor.
This is him in triumph, being the greater Moses who walks us out through the waters outside of the city into the glorious light and the broader New Testament explains how God can do that justly. The charge is dealt with through Christ. You can go check out Colossians two. Read the whole thing of Love it.
It's fantastic. I think lastly, this debt explains love, as shall we say, like a downstream effect. People love a little when they imagine that they have little needs and people love much when they were spiritually bankrupt and then freely pardoned freely in that it didn't cost you and I anything, but of course it cost our Lord and Savior everything, and so.
In this way, our hopes to frame the fact that our love should be an outpouring of gratitude, uh, for the grace that God has given us through Jesus Christ.
[00:41:28] Jesse Schwamb: Here's some things I would say that we should all walk away with to help us then both process what we've talked about here, and also put some of this into action.
First thing would be, don't measure your need by comparing debts horizontally. That's a fool's errand, whether 50 or 500. The point is we cannot pay. And this levels the Pharisee and the prostitute alike. That is like Tony talked about elsewhere in the previous Luke 15, where we're talking about the PR prodigal of the father, the prodigal of the two lost sons.
How there's like a great insult against the Pharisee there. And here's the insult, it's also a little bit cutting to us, and again, that the Pharisee and the prostitute are alike. Can't repay. It Doesn't matter what debt you think you have in the corporal sense, or again in this horizontal means, but you cannot repay it.
And so therefore, guess what? We're all like, we need to let forgiveness lead and we need to let love follow. If you reverse that order like I'll love so I can be forgiven. You crush assurance and you turn the gospel into wages and that's again exactly I think what Jesus is against in this. He's making that very clear.
The, the beauty of the gospel is this receiving that Christ has done all these things that we, uh, find ourselves by his arresting, by again, his intervening by his coming forward. He does all this on our behalf. You've heard me say before, I always like take that old phrase, what would Jesus do? That question that was on everybody's bracelets and everybody's minds and what, two decades ago?
And turn that answer into what would Jesus do? Everything And it's already done. We need to watch for Simon symptoms. That's my clever way of saying this, like low love, high judgment. A chilly heart toward Christ often signals a warm heart towards self justification. And so we wanna be about the kind of people that are closely king, clinging to Jesus Christ as all of our hope and stay that the strength for today and hope for tomorrow comes from what Christ has already accomplished on our behalf.
And therefore, there is a dutiful and meaningful and appropriate response for us. But that response again, is not obedience for merit. It is obedience out of warm heartedness for our savior. And for a sincere repentance because a sincere repentance is not payment. It's agreement with God about the debt.
Tears, don't cancel the ledger. Christ does that. Tears are what debtors do when Mercy lands, and I think in some way the challenge here is that have we really meditated on the life of this woman and then more personally on our own experiences on what it means to be saved? Well, I'm not asking you to get yourself worked up into an emotional state, but what I am asking all of us to do is.
Have we spent enough time recently meditating on what it means that Christ has set us free, that we are incredible debtors, and that Christ in our own ledger in this way hasn't just wiped out the debt, but he's filled up the account with righteousness. And so we can exchange these horrible soiled garments for garments of praise.
Now, have we thought about that recently? The call here is to be reminded. That sincere repentance is an agreement with God about the debt, and in that agreement we're sensing that weight. There should be a response.
[00:44:42] Jesse Schwamb: So I leave it to you loved ones, you've heard it here, or at least you've heard me talk for a little while about this parable.
And maybe one day, maybe there'll be an episode one day about Tony's perspective on this, which I can't imagine will be too much different. But again, I saw my opportunity, loved ones. I said, oh, I'm gonna sneak in hard on this one because this one is particularly meaningful and special to me, and I hope that even though it involved a little bit of economics and maybe a lot of finance, that it didn't lose its resonance with you.
I think this is the great weight of the way in which Jesus teaches that he's not just using practical means. But he's using these things to give greater weight and flesh, as it were, to these concepts of a spiritual nature that sometimes feel ephemeral. Instead, he wants them to sink in heaviness upon us.
And I wanna be clear that. This whole parable is both law and gospel. It is the weightiness and the sharp edge knife of the law which cuts against us. And Jesus throwing his weight around literally at this dinner party and in this parable, and you and I should feel that weight. It should knock us around a little bit.
And then. And then comes the reminder that there is good news and that good news, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ, is that he has made a way that the debt that was incurred against us, that we ourselves added to, that we continue to want to try to borrow against, that Jesus has, in fact paid that debt in full and that he's done so in the currency of his own flesh and blood and his own passive and active obedience so that it may be paid in full.
It's true what the hymn says. Jesus paid it all, all to him. I owe. So I hope loved ones that you'll be encouraged with that message that it is both law and gospel, but it ends in this high and elevated state, which is we have been made together alive with Christ for his own sake, for his glory, and for our good.
So now that you know that go out into the world and live that way, meditate on that, enjoy that. Talk about it with a family member or a brother and sister, or you can talk about it with us. You didn't think that we'd get this far without me even a plug for telegram, did you? So if you. Haven't listened to us before, or if this is your 480th time, I say welcome and also come hang, hang out with us online.
You can do that by going to your browser and putting in there. T me slash reformed brotherhood. T. Dummy slash reformed brotherhood, and that will take you to a little app called Telegram, which is just a messaging app. And we have a closed community in there, which you can preview and then become a part of.
And there's lots of lovely brothers, sisters from all over the world interacting, talking about the conversations we're having here, sharing prayer requests, sharing memes, talking about life tasting foods on video. It's really. Absolutely delightful, and I know you want to be a part of it, so come hang out.
It's one other thing you can do. If at any point you felt like this podcast, the conversations have been a blessing to you, may I ask a favor, something at least for you to consider, and that is there are all kinds of expenses to make sure that this thing keeps going on. Keeps going strong. And there are brothers and sisters who after they've satisfied their financial obligations, have said, I want to give a little bit to that.
So if you've been blessed, I'm what I can I boldly ask that you might consider that it's so many people giving so many tiny little gifts because all of these things compound for God's glory in the kingdom. And if you're interested in giving to us one time or reoccurring, here's a website for you to check out.
It's patreon.com. Reform Brotherhood, P-A-T-R-E-O n.com, reform slash reform brotherhood. Go check that out. Alright, that's it. Loved ones, you know what to do. Until next time, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.
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In this profound exploration of Luke 15, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb complete their examination of the Parable of the Prodigal Son by focusing on the often-overlooked central figure: the father. Rather than a sentimental character, the father serves as a revelatory figure who demonstrates God's nature toward returning prodigals and resentful religious people alike. This episode challenges common misinterpretations of the parable, particularly regarding the father's running to meet his son, and explores how the parable simultaneously confronts both antinomianism and legalism. The hosts demonstrate how the father's love—not the son's repentance—is the driving force of redemption, offering vital insights into God's character and the nature of grace that should transform how we understand salvation and our relationship with the Heavenly Father.
The parable reveals that the father's compassion is active before any condition is met by the returning son. When the text says "while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion," we witness divine initiative in action. This sequence matters tremendously for our understanding of grace. The son had prepared a speech—a negotiation for hired servant status—but the father's embrace interrupts the transaction. Grace is not extracted from God by human improvement or the quality of our repentance; it flows from God's own character and will.
This theological reality guards against both presumption and despair. We cannot presume upon grace as though sin doesn't matter—the father clearly identifies the son's condition as "death" and "lostness." Yet neither can we despair that our repentance might be insufficient to move God—his love precedes and enables our return. As Ephesians 1:4-6 declares, God chose us "before the foundation of the world...according to the pleasure of His goodwill." The father's running illustrates what was true before time began: God's saving disposition originates in himself, not in us.
Much scholarship has emphasized the supposed shame of a patriarch running, suggesting this represents God's willingness to be embarrassed for our sake. However, this interpretation may miss the mark. The running should be understood as condescension—God stooping to save—rather than a violation of decorum. Throughout Scripture, God is described as "bearing Israel up as a man carries his son" (Deuteronomy 1:31) and having compassion that "grows warm" (Hosea 11:8). These are images of condescension: the infinite God making himself accessible to finite creatures.
The distinction matters because it shapes how we understand God's character. If the father's running is primarily about embarrassment, the focus remains on cost to dignity. But if it's about condescension, the focus shifts to the nature of love that bridges distance. Any parent who has seen a long-lost child return understands this instinct—you don't calculate dignity; you simply run. The father's action isn't surprising or unusual given the circumstances; what's shocking is the older brother's refusal to share in the joy. This interpretation better fits the parable's context and Jesus's purpose in telling it to the Pharisees.
Perhaps the most crucial theological correction this parable offers concerns the relationship between the Father and the Son in the economy of salvation. Some theological circles wrongly pit "the wrathful Father" against "the loving Son," as though Jesus came to change the Father's mind about sinners. This parable demolishes that error. The father's love is the initiating force of the entire narrative. Before the son returns, the father is disposed to welcome him. Before the older son rejects the celebration, the father goes out to plead with him.
This reflects the biblical pattern consistently: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son" (John 3:16)—the Father's love gives the Son. The covenant of redemption originates in the Father's love for the elect. The incarnation, atonement, and application of redemption all flow from the Father's initiative. Wrath, while real and righteous, is God's "alien work"—not foreign to him, but not his primary disposition either. The father in the parable displays nothing but gracious intention toward both sons, never manipulated into love, never coerced into mercy, but freely extending restoration because it flows from who he is.
The love of God the Father is the motivating factor that drives the whole plan of redemption...So it's God the Father's love that drives the whole plan of salvation. The whole covenant of redemption is initiated in light of the Father's love. - Tony Arsenal
The father in this archway is the keystone. He's the load-bearing character in this whole parable. He's not just a sentimental figure, he's a revelatory figure. He shows us what God is like toward returning prodigals and toward resentful older brothers. - Jesse Schwamb
The point that the parable is making is that the love of this father drives him to exert himself and close that distance...There is never a point in the parable where there's anything shown by the father except for love for his people. - Tony Arsenal
[00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: In a lot of theological circles, this takes the form of pitting the son against the father, like God, the Son against God, the Father
the son placated the father. Because the father was wrathful and angry, so Jesus had to come down and die and now the Father can love us. The reality is the love of God the father, is the motivating factor that drives the plan of redemption,
and that's the same love of the Son and the same love of the spirit. In the most famous verse in the Bible, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that's God the Father
So it's God the Father's love that drives the whole plan of salvation. The whole covenant of redemption is initiated in light of the Father's love
[00:00:53] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 479 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:01:00] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear.
Hey brother.
[00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.
[00:01:06] Jesse Schwamb: We've been famously in the parable of the Lost Son or The Lost Sons. Or the father. Everybody knows this. And today on this episode, we're at least gonna close out our conversation about Luke Chapter 15. And I think everybody should just imagine that this parable is like a grand stone archway that's being constructed in such a way that it has to bear its own weight.
And the father in this archway is the keystone. He's the load-bearing character in this whole parable. He's not just like a sentimental figure, he's a revelatory figure. He shows us what God is like toward returning prodigals and toward resentful older brothers. And Jesus uses this to fire up our understanding of the kingdom and the gospel, and also to fire up the scribes and the Sadducees.
So we're talking about the Father on this episode, and he's rightfully the culminating character here. He's the keystone. So we're gonna get to arch building, keytones load bearing stuff, all the engineering that you wanted us to talk about in this parable. First we, we gotta do that thing. We just gotta do it, Tony.
[00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, we do.
[00:02:17] Jesse Schwamb: It's affirmations and denial. So are you, and your excitement is palpable. Are you affirming or are you denying against,
[00:02:24] Tony Arsenal: I'm denying something tonight? It's a little bit heavy.
[00:02:26] Tony Arsenal: Um, we haven't, and, and we don't typically wade into political discourse or what's going on in politics. Um, that's just not really our, our lane.
And that's not that there's anything wrong with shows that do, or that there's anything wrong with Christians who want to be involved in political discourse. It's just not really our thing. But, um, you know, I, I grew up in Minneapolis and I have family still in Minneapolis and I was texting with my sister the other day who, um, lives and works right in downtown Minneapolis.
And so I think, I think what I'm denying is not necessarily anything related directly to ICE or to the political positions. Um, what I see online. Is that there is a. Bifurcation. There are, there seems to be, and I think this is probably just the, like the nature of online discourse. So I don't think this is necessarily the way it is in the real world, but what I see online is there seems to be sort of progressive leaning Christians who are totally anti-ice.
This is the worst thing ever. Um, you know, nobody who's being arrested and deported deserves it and all of the ice people here, but that's one perspective. And then what I tend to see on the other side is ice is like God's righteous warriors and everyone who they scoop up it deserves it no matter what.
And they can do no wrong. And, uh. I am not making a commentary. Um, if you want to ask me directly in, in privately what I think about it, I, I'm happy to have a conversation. I'm not doing that right now. Um, I have no commentary on the legality of the, the deportations or the legality of the way they're conducting arrests.
That's just, I'm just not interested in talking about that on, on a podcast. But what I do think is challenging and what I think we need to think about as Christians is there is a real.
[00:04:24] Tony Arsenal: Human cost associated with what's going on, and there are lives, um, that are affected and there are people who are scared.
I, I think where this really hit me is I just texted my sister to, you know, to tell her that I was praying for her and, and get sort of a general check-in. And she shared with me, and I'm sure that this is not unique to her context. She shared with me that she has, uh, colleagues at, uh, her place of employment, um, who are, are American citizens born in the us, born to citizens.
Like there's no question about their citizenship. Um, and they are afraid to leave their home and afraid to go to work. Again, I'm not making any commentary on whether there's illegal things going on. I'm not even making any commentary on whether or not, um, I think it's reasonable for them to be afraid.
Um, the fact of the matter is they are afraid to to leave their homes, and some of those people are probably afraid to leave their homes because they feel like ice is going to harass them. Other people are probably afraid to leave their homes because there's a lot of violence and a lot of, uh, unrest going on.
But in, in either case, uh, I think we as Christians should look at this and see that there are a lot of hurting people who need Jesus. And there are a lot of people who are scared and there's a lot of people who are suffering real concrete arm all across the whole spectrum of this situations. So as Christians, I think we should be praying that God's will would be done and God does not delight in suffering for, you know, for suffering sake.
He doesn't delight in people being hurt or harmed or even emotionally scarred. Um. You know, we have sometimes this picture of God who's so abstract that those things he, that they don't bother him. And that's true from like a strictly theological sense, but we also have to reconcile what the scripture says and what it, what the picture it paints.
Um, at the very least, God, uh, reveals himself under the language of grieving, uh, injustice and grieving misery and grieving sorrow and suffering. So we should be a people that reflects that. Uh, although there are times when those things are necessary, both in the life of a Christian and then also as a result of sin in, we, we shouldn't be reveling in it and, and being excited about the fact that this is happening.
So I, I might get some heat for this and I guess I don't really care all that much. Um, but I think this polarized like. Every person who's scooped up by ice is, is a terrible, awful criminal. And it doesn't really matter what their story is. And then anyone who's scooped up by ice is just a total victim.
And it doesn't really matter what their story is like neither of those polls are true for most of the situations, um, to, you know, the story probably drift towards one side or another, and they're not all like right in the middle. But, um, the, the truth is that the world and life is complex and we shouldn't treat it as though it's, it's simple.
It really is not, in most cases,
[00:07:30] Jesse Schwamb: it's a good reminder that there are places that are not here. That there are people, as you said, that are experiencing a different kind of suffering and your rights. Of course, if we're to be the kind of people that even ourselves are taking on our lips that we want to follow our Lord Jesus Christ, then the example that he gives for us is to think about, to identify with.
To come alongside in prayer for those that are suffering. I think also for prayer for Christians in those communities to be strong and to exemplify the love of Christ in ways that they can. And so of course, I immediately go to Isaiah 53, and that's also about really the ubiquity of suffering in our world, but this massive desire on the part of God in an unreserved way to identify with that kind of suffering.
So in verse four, the famous verses, surely our griefs, he himself bore what? A statement, right? Yeah. Like the grief that we're talking about now, that we're not alone. The grief of those who in the midst of this kind of traumatic, uh, sorrow and our sorrows, he carried. We ourselves steamed him, stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.
But he was pierced through for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The chastising for our peace fell upon him, and by his wounds, we are healed. All of us, like sheep have gone astray. Each of us has turned to his own way, but Yahweh has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him. And who doesn't have iniquity?
All of us do. So this reminder that we serve a God who can parse out and understand the suffering the best, who is both just and justifier, and what is left to us then is to submit to him, to worship him, to pray that in that great grief, that our world experiences, that he himself would draw close as he has already promised to do, and that his spirit would come with both comforts and conviction to bring all his children onto himself, even in difficult situations like this.
[00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah.
[00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Well, on that note, Jesse, are you affirming or denying something? There's no good transition there.
[00:09:30] Jesse Schwamb: No, it, it's heavy. I hear you. And the problem is partly in our culture right now is you can't, I understand your all, all, both of our desires right now to be measured in what we say because maybe we have opinions, maybe we don't.
But the bottom line is I'm not sure that opinions even help that much in this type of situation because the complexities involved here. And all I think that's left to say is just that it's hard. And I wish there was more I could do. I, I wish this kind of thing wasn't happening. And I, I understand too.
I'm not naive enough to think that's not just happening here, but all over the world, these kind of things take place at any given day. And if, if we are so fortunate not to have to contend with them, then we are just very fortunate and we all take that as blessing. It doesn't mean that we don't have a responsibility to pray and to, I think in some ways try to identify with that suffering if only through our prayers, reminding ourselves that, like you said, we all need to save, we all do.
All of us, you and me and all those involved in this, it's absolutely necessary. It's part of what we're talking about tonight, right? We're saying like, Lord God as father, come. Come in your mercy, come quickly, come and heal. Come and restore. Come and make right. Come and judge, come in comfort. That's what we're asking the father to do.
So it's, it's heavy, but we need those kind of affirmations and denials from time to time. So I,
[00:10:43] Tony Arsenal: yeah,
[00:10:44] Jesse Schwamb: I appreciate you being willing to bring that into the chat.
[00:10:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:10:49] Jesse Schwamb: You want my affirmation into Yeah.
[00:10:51] Tony Arsenal: I feel like I can't, I, I mean, I'll be honest, like I, I think people might be surprised at my overall perspective on this.
And again, I'm not gonna get into it here, and, and I really am being honest when I say, like, if you wanna reach out to me privately, I'm, I'm not shy about my perspective on this. I'm happy to share it, but I think it's just heavy. And I felt the same way about this during the George Floyd riots. You know, like I grew up in Minneapolis and.
It's been a long time since I've been super familiar with Minneapolis, but, and I, like, I grew up on, on the east side of the cities, which is the St. Paul side. So even, even saying I grew up in Minneapolis is not super accurate, but there are times when I look at the news coverage and I can see I, I recognize the landmarks, I recognize, um, the street layout, and I go, I know what street that is.
And there's something, there's something heavier about watching this kind of news coverage and this kind of event when this is the place you grew up. And when, when there are people there that you know, that aren't just names, that they're people with a history, that you're part of their history and they're part of your history, right?
There's something heavy about that. And I think what's been impressed on me and maybe why I am, why I am reflective on this is. Even if those people are not a part of our history, they're part of someone's history. Right. They're, they're of
course,
that that person you saw, and, and I'll just say it like again, I'm not making commentary on the rightness or the wrongness or the justified ness or not justified of, uh, the most recent ice involved shooting.
Um, but that person had a family like that, that person that was killed was an image bearer and had a family, and he had perspectives and he had opinions, and he was a person who, um. Death is terrible. Like all of those things are true regardless of whether he made a good decision to go out that day or a foolish decision to go out that day, whether he was antagonizing ice or whether he wasn't like whatever the situation was, it's still true that he had a family who is mourning him, um, and he was an image bearer, and now that's done.
Like he's, I mean, he's still an image bearer, but like now he's gone and his, his life on earth and his history here is over. And that's a tragedy, like no matter how we slice it, that's a tragedy. And I guess I'm just really sick of people acting as though, and, and I think most people are doing this for.
Political posturing reasons. I think people who wanna paint this as though it's good versus evil and that there's only simple answers in this, they're doing it because it suits a political narrative. And I'm not even making a commentary on whether or not that's good or, or wise or bad. Like I, that that's not even the point.
But that's a lot of what's driving this. And I, I think as Christians we can be and should be political. I think we should be involved in politics in so far that God calls us to. There's nothing wrong with that. But we, we don't have the liberty to do politics the way the world does politics. If we're gonna be involved in political action, whether that's formally by seeking office or whether that's informally by.
Making commentary. We still have to be Christians while we do it. We still have to, we still have to follow God's law while we do it. And that includes both the sixth Commandment and the ninth commandment. All of those things are true. And I guess I'm just really frustrated seeing some Christians or some people who call themselves Christians.
I, the only reason I say that is not to necessarily call their salvation into question. It's people who are identifying as Christians. I just have no knowledge of, it's just random screen names on Twitter. Some of them are probably bots, right? But there are people who identify, who are identifying themselves as Christians who are.
Acting as though the death of an image bearer is not a tragedy. And, and I, I can't think of a situation even when a hardened criminal is, is executed, even when justice is served by the death of an individual, it's still a tragedy and like a cosmic sense. That's not how it was supposed to be. It's not God's design for humans to perish and to, to, you know, to cease to be like, that's, that's just not the way it's supposed to be.
So it's heavy. I do want you to save me and get us out of this. Hopefully you've got some light, fun affirmation to get us back on track, but I've just, just been weighing on me and, and I feel like, I feel like sometimes we do have a platform and we have a responsibility to use it to, to make some statements to, to force us to grapple with these things.
I mean, I not like, it's a huge platform. We have like four or 500 regular listeners. It's not like we have a big reach, but we have a reach and we think, I think that has means we have a responsibility too.
[00:15:52] Jesse Schwamb: Also, this is how you and I talk, isn't it?
[00:15:54] Tony Arsenal: It's true. That's also true.
[00:15:56] Jesse Schwamb: This, and we're being true to the fact that we talk about the things that come up, that grieve us, that hurt us, that help us to process our faith and also our struggles in the midst of that faith.
[00:16:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:16:08] Jesse Schwamb: To make sure that we're honoring the Lord Jesus Christ in like difficult times and difficult circumstances of which again, by some, in almost all relative comparison, it's not that difficult for us, for you and I except that we have to contend with these things. Everybody should. So I think when you bring it forward, you remind us of that.
And I, for one, I'm grateful. So in that spirit, I don't know how my. Affirmation or denial could be heavier than that. Like we would, this would take a really weird turn. If I had one that was like, well, hold on, because I wade into so, and part of maybe its lightness is I'm gonna just break the rules. I'm gonna do an affirmation in denial, which used to be the old school method, but the affirmation is like, dry by, you rarely notice it happens.
So I'm just gonna drop it real quickly. So I've spoken before about two great series by author Brandon Sanderson, who writes amazing fictions in the fantasy genre. Uh, those two are miss Born in Stormlight Archive. So in case you know him as an author and you've been living under a rock, I just wanna say in passing that Apple TV just picked up, uh, some rights to those two series and they're gonna be making movies and, uh, television series.
And I high host because it's Apple and apparently Sanderson is also going to write, produce, and consult and approve and all this stuff. So it's gonna be good. So if you're not into reading. But you've heard me talk about them before. You can just wait and if you are into reading, get super stoked. 'cause you're gonna see people like, you know, VIN and Ellen in person.
Apparently it's gonna be great. So that's news in passing. Nothing else. Say
[00:17:36] Tony Arsenal: Vin and Ellen. Like Vin Diesel and Ellen DeGeneres are starring in
[00:17:40] Jesse Schwamb: this show? No, no. Being the character in Ellen. Ellen,
[00:17:45] Tony Arsenal: you're on like a first name basis with Vin and Ellen.
[00:17:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. I mean, if you read, I mean, if you know, you know, if you know, you know, so you have time to read, read, miss, board, read Storm, like archive.
It's actually, there's a lot of books, but, but I'm super stoked that this is gonna happen. So that was just a, that's the drive by I, I gotta leave it there. We're gonna, I've already drawn like just sped past the house, so here's the real denial. I'm also going denial. It is lighter than yours, Tony, but I think that you'll agree with me, but I'm not entirely sure.
So we're gonna find out.
[00:18:13] Jesse Schwamb: So I think the best way I can summarize this denial is like the dislike or vitriol, that's too strong a word, but I'm denying against the, what I think is too much dislike against. The cold weather. So, so hear me out on this in lots of places of the world right now, it's cold, it's super cold, it's colder than average for many people.
And I get that that can be uncomfortable. But there's something for me where I've always found the cold to be kind of life giving. It makes you feel alive. Like you go outside, uh, to take out the trash on a cold night, you breathe in that air and yeah, maybe it burns your lungs a little bit. You look up at the clear sky.
There's something about a beauty of the cold that I don't find the same in winter. Also, you can't get comfy in the, or in the summer, rather, you can't get comfy in the summer. It just doesn't happen. So like even now in my makeshift bedroom studio, it's a nice 61 degrees. I got a sweatshirt on, like I, and I know what the temperature is in the room you're at.
It's definitely
[00:19:13] Tony Arsenal: older than 61 degrees probably.
[00:19:15] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's around that temp probably. So I, I know that it's like easy. I think it's just like easy to pick on the cold. But I think they, you know, of course there's something that people say about like, the fire is purifying. I don't know. I always kind of think that way about the cold.
It's, it's special. And I think there's something about leaning in and appreciating it, both like the joy then and, uh, appreciating the blessing of having someplace warm to be, but also this amazing juxtaposition of just being out in temperatures that cuts you a little bit, ah, I don't know. There's something about that.
I don't get that with the, the heat, but What's that? You, have I gone too far? Am I not?
[00:19:52] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. No, I think there's a sweet spot. Like, I think, I think there's a such thing as too cold. Um, you know, I think, uh,
[00:20:01] Jesse Schwamb: what, what's too cold? Fahrenheit style. Sorry. We, we can, we'll, we'll do the conversion of Celsius.
[00:20:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
I'm not gonna do the conversion of Celsius. This is a America. Um, I think probably like. 15 to 20 degrees is the sweet spot. I think if you get much colder than that for me. Oh, that's, I
[00:20:19] Jesse Schwamb: thought you'd say
[00:20:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I think if you get much colder than that, for me it, it becomes, and maybe this is 'cause I have kids and so like, it, it becomes a whole different game to try to get kids into the car when it's, it's colder than 15 degrees.
Um, you can get a, you know, you can get away with like rushing the kid out to the car and just wrapping the jacket around them. Something people who don't have toddlers don't realize is you can't put your toddler in the car seat in a winter jacket. So like, it gets to be cumbersome.
[00:20:49] Jesse Schwamb: Gotta do costume change.
[00:20:51] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I feel like, I feel like if it gets much colder than that, then the joy of being outside, I guess my, my threshold and maybe. It probably isn't a, like an a specific temperature, but when I take the dog out at night, if I feel like I have to put a jacket on to do that, that's when it's too cold. And, but I agree with you in principle that there's something refreshing about standing outside when it's crisp and cold.
Not just cool, but cold. Something about the, the, uh, the alertness of your nerves and like there's something that just like wakes you up in a really nice way, um, that you don't get in the heat. I feel like in. Converse heat. So like, I think maybe the equivalent of 15 degrees, if I was talking about when it's too hot, would be like 90, 95 degrees would feel the same, like, would be on the same end, end of the spectrum.
You don't walk out and go, ah, it's 95. Like, you walk out and you feel oppressed. You feel like it's heavy on your shoulders. It drains you of your life. Um, I feel like it's cold. There's a sweet spot. There is no sweet spot where like, it, it gets so hot that you feel great about it. So I think, I feel you in pr in principle.
I'm, I'm not sure, I guess maybe you have a, maybe there's a sweet spot for you two. Like I don't think you're, we're not talking like negative 60 degrees air temperature or something like that, but yeah, I think I'm with you.
[00:22:16] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, but I, but I am, I think talking about a little bit of like cold face slapping, if you know what I mean.
Yeah. I mean there's, there's something famously about the heats. Where you, once you get out in it, there's not much you can do if it is oppressive. Right. So, you know, if you're going out, you're exercising or just out and about. It's not like you can like strip down entirely and even then you might not be comfortable.
Right. Obviously where the cold is a little bit different. Hopefully you can prepare yourself. You can put a more clothes. I, I'm with you. I don't know what that temperature would be for me, but it's just funny around here. It's every, every kind of interaction ends with a stay warm out there. Will you? Yeah.
Like, I guess we do that in the heat as well, but I'm, sometimes I'm like, no, it's, it's okay to feel what you feel and it's nice to have, uh, the seasons of cold. I don't know if I would like living in a place where it didn't get at least a little bit once in a while, shockingly cold because there's so beautiful about that shock.
So I think 15 is fine. I'm with you. That's maybe the right for all of our like continental listeners, those out in the rest of the world that's negative nine degrees Celsius. So, you know, take that for what you will. But it's, it's okay. I guess I'm saying it's okay. We can, we can just be like, you know what, it's cold, but it might be good for us.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
[00:23:24] Tony Arsenal: I think on a, a totally different temperature related bit here, I think we should stop saying, uh, that it is 20 degrees and instead we should be, we should say, every time it's 12 degrees below the temperature at which saline freezes at sea level or whatever the, whatever the weird calculation is that makes 32 degrees freezing instead of zero degrees.
I joke about like this being America, but like the Fahrenheit scale is cr is whacked out and it's wild, crazy. It makes no sense. It's wild. It, it makes sense in the laboratory setting that it was created in, but like, it just doesn't make any sense from like a, just a logical human beings think this way.
Um, perspective. Um, but I think I'm with you. I think, I guess maybe where I'm, where my head is at is like. When it's like negative 10 degrees, and I'm not talking about windchill actually, I think negative 10 degrees air temperature when there's no wind is probably not all that uncomfortable. Like, really?
Right. Like I
agree.
I feel like I would not feel totally uncomfortable just walking out to the mail. Like I wouldn't put a jacket on to run out to the mailbox and grab the mail if it was 10 degrees below zero and there was no wind. Um, but whatever it is, like when you're at a low temperature and then you come back up a little bit, your body's like, ah, like you can tolerate that.
I feel like when it's 105 degrees and then it drops to 95 degrees, there's not that same effect where you're like,
[00:24:48] Jesse Schwamb: yes.
[00:24:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah. Like,
[00:24:50] Jesse Schwamb: right.
[00:24:50] Tony Arsenal: That, that, my favorite part of the season, this is like super nerdy total, like Northerner Yankee talk. My favorite part of the season is that first like. We had it in January this year, but like that first period of time where it pops back up into the mid twenties mm-hmm.
And everybody is like wearing shorts and a t-shirt for like two days. Yeah.
Right.
Um, or like people are driving all with their windows rolled down on their car because it like, or that's like when you open your house to get all the like winter stale air out. Um, that's my favorite part of the season.
Maybe that's what, maybe that's what I'm talking about with you, but I think I'm with you. I think the cold is refreshing in a really kind of organic way. It wakes you up in a good way.
[00:25:30] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. I think maybe it's okay and maybe we need it. And I've thought about that a lot. Isn't it strange, but also endearing that the way that we feel, the temperature, the way that we actually experience it, is relative to the season.
Yeah. Because you know, you might have, like, if it was like 61, 62 in your house and like the dead of August, you'd be like, man. So refreshing. But in winter you're prone to say, Ooh, there's a little nip in the air, you know? And it's like, what? Same temperature. It's just that like you're oriented, all of your experience is oriented right now to your seasonal reality and circumstances.
So I think I love temperature change. So I'm, I, and I also would say maybe it's just growing up in New England, I much prefer the cold than the heat. I mean,
[00:26:10] Tony Arsenal: yeah,
[00:26:10] Jesse Schwamb: oppressive heat where it feels like you're inside a dog's mouth to me is in no way preferable or has hegemony over going outside in the the minus 10.
So,
[00:26:21] Tony Arsenal: yeah, I
[00:26:22] Jesse Schwamb: agree. Enjoy it. Loved ones. Wherever you're at it, just enjoy it.
[00:26:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, I also think, um, it's funny how you talk about temperature being relative or exp experience of temperature being relative because, you know, we're, it's winter we're trying to save money. Like fuel oils is crazy expensive in New England and
Right.
Um, all of the fuel oil in this area comes from Canada. So there's all the tariff stuff going on. And so I'm trying to keep my, you know, trying to keep our thermostat down. And so I have it set to like 63 at night, which is lower than I, I think I would've set it in the past. And I remember like the other day, I was up in the middle of the night with one of the kids and I was like, oh man, it's so cold in here.
And I looked at the, the thermostat and I was like, wait a second. Like, I set my air conditioner to 63 in the summer,
right.
And I keep my room that, like, I keep our bedroom that cool, right? It's a small bedroom. We have a nice air conditioner, so we keep that a room that cool. But in the winter that feels cold and I'm trying to turn up the heat.
There's, there's something theological there too. Something about not being satisfied. Maybe there's like a, there's a, an argument. For dissatisfaction, like CS Lewis style, there's an argument that because we can never be comfortable with the temperature, there must therefore be a heaven where temperatures is perfect or something like that.
[00:27:35] Jesse Schwamb: I actually that's, that's pretty good. That's better than I always could come up with. I was gonna go the direction of like the rare jewel cont contentment, like, there
[00:27:42] Tony Arsenal: you go.
[00:27:42] Jesse Schwamb: Puritan style. Obviously that's the best segment We're gonna get into our conclusion of yes, chapter 15 and this rice baked parable of lostness.
[00:27:54] Jesse Schwamb: And we're, we're gonna talk about the father, so I'm just gonna take us right there. Ready? Everybody. We're speeding ahead. We're just gonna go right to verse 18 because I think it's good for us to put in our ears again just the end of this parable so we can see and hear this interaction of the father with his two sons.
And I'm gonna advance us to the point where the first son has gone away. He squandered all his living, he comes to himself and so then he has this little conversation while he's, uh, you know, presumably with the pigs looking at the pods that they eat, that he wishes he could as well. He says, I'll rise up and go to my father and I'll say to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son.
Make me as one of your hired. So he rose up and he came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son.
But the father said to his slaves, quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet and bring the fat in calf and slaughter it and let us eat and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and has come to life again. He was lost and he's been found and then began to celebrate.
Now, his older son was in the field and when he came and approached the house, he heard music at dancing and summoning one of the servants. He began inquiring what these things could be, and he said to him, your brother has come and your father has killed the fatten calf because he has received him back safe in sound.
But he became angry and was not wanting to go in, and his father came out and began pleading with him. He answered and said to his father, look, for so many years I've been serving you and never have I neglected a command of yours. And yet never have you given me a young goat so that I might celebrate with my friends.
But when this son of yours came who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fat and calf for him. And he said to him, child, you are always with me. And all that is mine is yours. But what we had to celebrate and rejoice for this brother of yours was dead and is alive and was lost and has been found.
[00:29:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think it's important, you know, we're kind of gonna jump in here and really focus on the father and we made, we made the point last week that this. This parable really probably is about the older son. Like the punchline of this parable is about the older son because it's a parable that's told in response to the Pharisees to shame them for acting like the older brother.
So even though the, the rest of the parable exists that the main point of the parable is probably found in. This lack of rejoicing over the lost brother who was, uh, found. And that lines up with the main point of the other two parables in this sort of triplet of parables is the rejoicing element, right?
There's the, there's the, the shepherd who rejoices when he finds his lost sheep, the angels in heaven that rejoice, you know, they're not part of the parable, but it's explained that the angels will rejoice. And then this woman who rejoices over her lost coin and invites all her friends over to do the same.
Um, the flip side of this, yes, the parable has a lot to say about how. The father rejoices how he throws this big feast, but the, the, the punchline of this parable is that the older son refused to come in. And so it's, it's painting this picture of like, there's these two parables where the only logical answer is to rejoice, and then there's this parable where it seems like, yeah, the only logical answer is to rejoice.
And then there's this totally irrational, insane reaction of the, the older brother to not rejoice, but all of that said. That only functions like that. Punchline only works if you also understand the setup. I don't know if you've ever had this, this happen, Jesse, where you're, you're trying to tell a story that has kind of a funny punchline or you're, you're telling a sort of a narrative joke and either you miss something in the setup or the, the person doesn't get something in the setup and so the joke just doesn't land, or the story just doesn't have the, the impact it's supposed to.
And I think like that's kind of where we're at on this is, yes, we've talked about the punchline and that is the punchline, but we can't fully understand the impact. The insanity of the older brother's response.
[00:32:12] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:32:12] Tony Arsenal: Um, if we don't understand the, just the grace that the father shows both to the younger son, which we've talked a lot about, and to the older son, which we've also talked a lot about, but understanding the nature of the father beyond just like his response, I think is, is really vital.
And that's where we're gonna go tonight.
[00:32:29] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I think that's really good setup. It, there's this posture of the father, this watchful mercy, which is for both of his children, for the son, that's away. Also for the son that's at home, he notices them both, one coming, one missing. And so I find it interesting that, like you said, the father's compassion is described even before the first son finishes his rehearsed confession.
And it's clear that we're seeing that God's mercy is, is not hired by repentance.
[00:32:56] Jesse Schwamb: Repentance is like this appointed pathway by which mercy is received and it's extended to both of the children in a way. And so in the first, the father's seeing and running really portrays clearly for us that divine initiative, not that the son is contributing some kind of merit, but that the father's already disposed to welcome.
The returning sinner, and he is already disposed to welcome his angry older son into the fray. It's almost a warning as if to say, you know, similar maybe to what Cain receives, like sin is crouching at the door, a desires to master over you. Don't go this way. Don't do this thing. Come and enjoy, come and celebrate.
But you're right, the whole setup is in the father's posture. And then of course, like coheres with that wider biblical portrait of God's fatherly compassion, that he's a father that shows compassion to his children, that the ones he loves, he shows, or the ones that love him. Rather, he shows grace and blessing and mercy to a thousand generations while only punishing the next several contiguous generations that he's a loved us with an everlasting kind of lavish love.
So there's this emphasis right from the beginning, which I think is setting up that punchline that the father's compassion is free. It's prior, it's rooted in God's character, not in the sinner's performance here and, and they're both sinners. That's clear. So you're right. It, it's almost like maybe we should see it coming.
Yeah, maybe they should have seen it coming. But that is all necessary to get to the end result where you get the like, you know, big kind of gotcha moment.
[00:34:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I think too, um. We rightfully look at the response of the father to the younger son's return, um, as sort of like the locust classicist of the father's character here, right.
The, the, the seminal moment in this, this interaction. But we, we, um, and we're even doing this tonight, right? We started at verse 18, but we start to see glimpses of the father's character earlier in the parable.
[00:34:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:34:45] Tony Arsenal: Right? Of course.
[00:34:45] Tony Arsenal: So first of all, the parable is, is, um, the punchline of the parable is about the older son and the older son's response.
But the parable starts out saying there was a man. The man is not one of the sons. There was a man who had two sons.
[00:34:59] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:34:59] Tony Arsenal: So this is a parable that starts by describing this father as one who had two sons.
[00:35:04] Tony Arsenal: And then we see in the response of the father to this, this younger son's request already, there's an act of grace.
Right. And you know, we've kind of made this comment that there's, this is sort of like a, a lesson in systematic theology, um, in soteriology baked into this parable. But like the fact that the father doesn't reject the son's request to divide up the inheritance early. Um, I I, I've read a lot of commentaries on this that would say like the request of the son was so audacious and disrespectful, that like in Israel, it would've been appropriate for this father to bring him up basically on like capital charges and have him executed, right?
Like, like Leviticus style and. I don't know whether that's all true or not. Like there's a lot of speculation that has to happen with those kinds of cultural, um, extrapolations. But in either case, this father would've been well within his rights. Um, and again, like we've, we've made the point, like this isn't necessarily a lesson in great parenting.
Um, but the father would've been well within his rights to laugh the sun out of his room and be like, of course I'm not dividing up your inheritance. Like, I'm still living, I still need this to live on. Uh, but he doesn't, he grants the request and, and this is a little bit of speculation, I think, but what motivation would there be to grant this request other than loving his son and not wanting to have this relational disruption?
Right. This father.
[00:36:36] Tony Arsenal: Starts off this parable by granting this son's request at, at great cost to himself, right? We've, we've mentioned it in the inheritance laws. Um, the older son gets two thirds of the estate, and so the younger son or the older son gets a double portion. So if we assume that there are only two sons, which it says he had two sons, we, we don't have any reason to think there's more in view, then the younger son is leaving with a full third of this, of this man's estate, um, and has to be a third of the estate that he can take with him.
So whatever he's granted in this request to, to give him his property, he's taking all, you know, at least a third of this man's liquid assets, probably more than a third of his liquid assets. Um, with him, that's a huge, huge amount of, uh, of your own personal, uh, assets that go with you that he, and he just does it.
He just does it. And I think this paints a picture for us of.
[00:37:36] Tony Arsenal: Again, we have to be theologically careful. God does not suffer loss when we depart from him. Right? It doesn't affect God in a, in a absolute proper sense when sinners, you know, are, are distant from him. Um, but there is a reality that this father in the parable grants his son's request a foolish request, right?
And I think he probably understood it was a foolish request. He grants him this request at great cost to himself. And how often do we depart from our father at great, great cost? I'm doing air quotes. If you're not watching this on the video, A great cost to our Heavenly Father in that we now breach communion with him.
Or if we're not, if we're not, uh, regener Christians and we persist in our sin, like the, his image is marred. His image is marred in creation. Uh, he, his glory is not proclaimed by an image bearer that still has the same chief end that all the rest of us do, which is to glorify God and, and enjoy him forever.
There's a, there's a, um, an accommodated language analog loss that the father suffers when that happens. That's a picture of what's going on in this parable as well.
[00:38:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that that's absolutely right on. I mean, there's, there's like, you're, you're drawing us something back to this. Juxtaposition between this kind of open, gratuitous rebellion of the first son without like us appropriate appreciating the more like subtle rebellion that's equally sinful of the second.
[00:39:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And
[00:39:14] Jesse Schwamb: that's a problem. And, and that's really what's God is addressing in here. He c he comes for both. The father comes for both in his own way.
[00:39:22] Jesse Schwamb: Can we, since we're talking about the father, can we talk about a pet peeve of mine? I have with some interpretation of this? Yeah. And you can tell me whether you agree, disagree.
Okay. So
[00:39:30] Tony Arsenal: it's peeve all the pets.
[00:39:31] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's so, it's, it's um, it's about the running. Yeah. There's a lot written about the running and I think a lot of it is good. Some of it might be like going too far, but I understand. Let's just put out there, we can all agree that in that culture, a dignified patriarch running is like socially beneath him.
I get all that right. What I find though interesting is I see a difference here in how we describe it. There's some, I think that would describe that as like undignified, right? I, I don't see it this way. It's not like David's style. Like, I'll become even more undignified than this. I will, you know, tie up my robe and I'll go running and I'll embarrass myself or my son.
What I think we ought to understand, or at least is I'm interpreting it, is a difference between like condescension and not decorum. So in this parable, uh, I don't think this is embarrassment. It is a condescending love. It's God's willingness to cross the distance that our sin has created and that that fits.
We know that I think we should pull in all the, all the Old Testament where God is, we're repeatedly describing as kind of like stooping to save. Whether that's he's boring Israel up as a man, carries his son, or God's compassion grows warm like from Hosea. But I don't see this as in decorum. I see it as condescension and I, I think that's worth mentioning.
[00:40:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. I think, I think whether it's this or. There are other parables where this happens, where like people extrapolate, and I guess maybe I did this just now just a little bit, so I'm not like bashing on people too much, but I think we can make way too much out of a, out of a, um, somewhat speculative point.
Sure. Like, like I, like I said, like, do we know for sure that this, uh, this request to divide the inheritance would've been a capital offense,
right?
I, I, I don't think so. Do we have a record of a child asking to have their inheritance early and then being put to I, I don't think so. None of the commentaries that I've read point to an actual account of that happening.
And I think this is probably like the same thing. Like, yeah, I guess like the head of a family and like, yes. All of the commentaries that I've read that make this point talk about how like you'd have to gird your loins and like
[00:41:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yep.
[00:41:43] Tony Arsenal: Like you, there's almost like a level of exposure, of course that happens when you have to do that, like,
[00:41:47] Jesse Schwamb: right.
[00:41:48] Tony Arsenal: Okay. But I, I think I'm with you that even if that's in play here, it's not, it's not really a point that the parable is making.
Right.
The point that the parable is making is that the love of this father drives him to exert himself and close that distance. Whether that's a condescension, like we might talk about it theologically, um, or whether it is a sort of like a self self-abasement or a self-effacement.
Um, I don't know, but I also don't know that it matters that much. That's not really the point. And I think, um. When I think about this as a dad, um, this makes so much sense to me too. Like my, um, my kid does something that is obnoxious and is so frustrating and I'm so angry. And then sometimes he looks at me and he goes, daddy, I'm sorry.
And it's all gone. Like, it's all gone in a second. Like, it, it really is most of the time. Like, and there is something about this that I have such, I guess, let me put it this way. I have such a tough time thinking that being a dad has emotionally changed so much in the last 2000 years that the, the, the, um.
Natural instincts of fatherhood that God gives us are so different now that any father would not run to their child who is returning like this man. I think when he says at, when it's said at the end that your brother who was dead is now alive, like I don't think that that is an exaggeration.
[00:43:28] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:43:29] Tony Arsenal: I think the assumption made in this family, in the context of this parable is that when this son left, they were never gonna see him again because this was a foolish decision.
Right. They knew what he was gonna do with the money. They knew he was gonna run out of the money. And in the, in the ancient world, when you're in a far country and you've got no money. You don't have a lot of prospects, even the men in the world, you know, all, all that's made about like the social difficulties of, uh, widowed and orphaned women in the ancient world.
Like yeah. But like a, a single dude out in some far country in the middle of a famine with no family support structure is gonna starve to death.
Right. So
I think, I think when I see this interpretations that make this running movement towards the sun to be somehow unexpected or unusual or something along those lines, um, they don't resonate with me.
[00:44:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, me neither.
[00:44:26] Tony Arsenal: I don't know that they really have ever have resonated with me, but. They just don't resonate with me. And I think this sort of like he com he committed this action. That's sort of semi shameful.
[00:44:38] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:44:38] Tony Arsenal: Right. That's almost like, right. I just don't, I just don't buy it. That doesn't seem like the shocking part of the parables usually have kind of a shocking element to them.
This does not seem like the shocking element to me.
[00:44:49] Jesse Schwamb: I, I agree. And if we take this and say, well he's done something really embarrassing and that's what shows the love. 'cause he's. He's so degraded himself. Then what are we really saying about God? If he's meant to be even in an emblematic way, a representation of God, like that's problematic.
I think though I'm with you in tracking with what you're saying though I don't have children myself. I'm just considering if you could put yourself in the place of that father, or just imagine yourself, like you're out carrying groceries in one day and at the end of your driveway you see a person you never thought you'd see again, or a friend you haven't seen in so long, or somebody in broken relationship that you really thought you'd never see.
I, I'm guessing what would happen is. You would just turn on your heels, get on your getaway sticks and you would run toward them. You, you went in that moment think like, uh, this is gonna be embarrassing, but the embarrassment is worth it. You would just go, you drop the groceries, you'd let the milk sit there, you would just take off.
[00:45:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and that's what shows this love. It is like a condescension to just move and to go because like you said, to your point, if he anticipated that his son might have been gone from this world, then I'm not sure if he was sitting by the window every day just kind of melancholy looking out, you know, with his hand resting on or his head resting on his, his hand, but still was probably doing something and turned and saw him and just went, and that was it.
And it was a reaction born out of the purest kind of love and condescension that would just go. I think then that's what flows into this whole response of like the kiss and the reconciliation before negotiation. You know, the son expects to bargain. Just make me like one of your Hy servants. But the fathers embrace, like interrupts the whole process.
And of course he just keeps showing us that this reconciliation for both the older and the younger son, it's not a wage for both of them. It's not a wage, it's a gift. And the father, what I find really interesting in both of their cases, he doesn't deny the sin like you're saying. He says, this son of mine was dead, which I think is both literal and figurative.
[00:46:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:46:44] Jesse Schwamb: The sense that he was, he was like cast outside. He, he was outside of himself, outside of the family, outside of the kingdom. But what he does deny is the son's proposed status. Downgrade. Yeah. You know, grace always restores sonship and so I, I think the parable here is resisting like two errors at once that you and I have talked about a lot, which would be kind of this like weird, like lukewarm omi and sentimental sentimentality.
Like sin doesn't matter, right. People like do what you want. It's all good. The father calls it death and lostness. Yeah. And
[00:47:15] Tony Arsenal: you
[00:47:15] Jesse Schwamb: kind of compare that against like legalism, like, well you have to earn your way back. It's good enough to, you know, have grace and mercy, but you have to do something to, to accept it.
You have to elevate yourself to the place deserving poor. You have to come forward with empty hands. The father restores before the son can even offer terms.
[00:47:32] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:47:32] Jesse Schwamb: So in both ways, the father is going out in one way. There's damage that's already been done through the youngest son, but in the other way I see it for the oldest son, the father's basically saying, don't do this, please don't do this.
And what I think is the most telling in that way. Is at the very end of this chapter in the we, the last phrase that we have, the father says, but we had to celebrate and rejoice not, but I not, but like me and the family, like he pulls him in inclusively already and says, you ought to be celebrating. Which of course is that?
Like we rock hard, sharp witted, like fiery tongue that's coming against the scribes in the Pharisees. But the father is condescending. He's not embarrassed by any of this.
[00:48:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:48:15] Jesse Schwamb: He's, he's condescending and proud, I think, to show his love. And again, I think any of one of us would get on our getaway sticks and run.
And like you're saying, that is just the shadow, that's the argument from the lesser to the greater. So how much more, again, do we see this father pushing us against antinomian behavior and also against legalism? It's all right there for us.
[00:48:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:48:34] Tony Arsenal: And you know what, I think too, maybe to just put a, an exclamation point on this whole little train of thought we have here.
Um, the father is not like. I think these, these interpretations that have this running out and embracing him to be some really unexpected, unusual semis shameful act. Mm-hmm. I think they just miss some of like the immediate context. Right. So the father arises, uh, well, the son was still a long way off. His father saw and felt compassion and ran and embraced him and kissed to him.
The son said, father, I have sinned against you before heaven and earth, and I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. The father said to his servants. Right. They didn't walk back to the village. They didn't walk back to the house. The, the picture is that like the servants ran right after the father, like right.
Everybody recognizes that this son is back and is alive when, when the, the son, the older son is coming in from the field. It's not the father that he asks what happened? The, the servant says, your brothers come home. He's been received back safe and, and sound. Everybody is celebrating. And it's not just that the servants are happy to have a free meal and, and a, you know, a better, some, some dancing and some wine like everybody is celebrating.
And so this idea that like the celebration, the running to the embracing element of this is somehow unusual. That totally contradicts the fact that the, the older son's, um, the older son's response is the only, is like, that's the insane response in the parable,
[00:50:08] Jesse Schwamb: right? Preach.
[00:50:08] Tony Arsenal: Right. The, the, the sane expected response that everybody has is overjoyed.
Um, just, uh, elation that this, this lost son has come home except this boneheaded older brother who refuses to come in and celebrate. So I think that, and, you know, we could even talk about the context of the father, like the fathers created this household with, with also with these servants where they're excited, they're happy, right?
And like, let's not put too fine a point on it. If these are slaves, which we have no reason to think, they're not like slavery was a reality in the ancient world. These are slaves. Their livelihood and their existence depends on the, the livelihood and existence of this, this father of this landowner, he gives away a third of it.
Their, their meals are getting leaner too. So they have every reason to be frustrated and angry with this older son as well, but they're not how, how amazing of a context of a family, of a household has this father created where even the servants who are there. Are rejoicing over the return of this son.
Right? The one person who doesn't rejoice, the one person who we're, we should be surprised is not excited, is the older son. And I think that in itself says a lot about this father and the other. The other point I wanted to make is there is an element, um, of. Almost like the older son's response. You know, I just talked about how that's the insane response.
It's almost like the father is surprised by it, right? And he goes out and he's like, what do you mean you're not exci? Like he's, he is, he's shock, sort of shocked that this son is not willing to come in and, and rejoice. And it, it's almost like it catches him off guard when his, his older son says, you've never even given me a young goat,
right?
Because he's like, what are you talking about? Everything I have is yours. Like, it, like it doesn't even register with him that he had to offer that a, a young goat like you, it's almost like you didn't even even have to ask. Like you didn't even have to ask, it's already yours. You wanted a young goat to have a party with your friends, like, the flock is yours.
Just take the young goat. There's this sense of, of sadness and surprise and. Um, betrayal almost in the words of the father of, I'm always with you. You are always with me, and all that's mine is yours. What do you mean you're not going to celebrate? Because all that's mine is yours, including this son who's come back.
He's also yours, and you're not willing to celebrate. So I think there's so much in this parable about God's nature too. We often, um. We often treat God as though he sort of grudgingly saved us. And I think in a lot of theological circles, this takes, takes the form of kind of like pitting the son against the father, like the, the God, the Son against God, the Father in, in the idea that like.
The son placated the father. And so like, because the father was wrathful and angry, and so Jesus had to come down and die and, and now the Father can love us. The reality is that the, the love of the Father, the love of God the father, um, is the motivating factor that, that drives the plan of redemption, right?
And that's the same love of the Son and the same love of the spirit. But in, in the most famous verse in the Bible, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that's God the Father it's talking about,
right?
So it's, it's God the Father's love that drives the whole plan of salvation. The whole covenant of redemption is initiated in light of the Father's love for, for the elect.
Um, it's not as though he was some frustrated, angry deity and his son somehow got the better of him and placated him. And that's exactly what we see in this parable. There is never a point in the parable where there's anything shown by the father except for love for his people. Including the servants. I mean, in a, in a real sense, the celebration is not like, all right, servants, get outta here.
I'm gonna have a fatted calf with my son who's come back.
Right.
The celebration is for the whole household. So this tells us so much about God's nature. Once that old, old quote, the par the puritans say is, you know, wrath is God's alien work. Yes. Right. It's, it's not to say that wrath is somehow outside of God or it, it's, it's contrary to God, but it, it is his alien work.
It's his work, but it's work that is sort of opposed to his natural inclination. I mean, that's a really risky way to talk about it, but it's sort of like. It's alien to God in a sense because it's alien to God's intention for the world, right? God's intention was, and again, it's so hard to even talk about this stuff, so I'm just gonna say people, we got 480 episodes of us, you
know,
us being really precise technical theology of, of impassability and inseparable operations.
Like just right. Hear this in that context, it, it is God's intention. It was God's intention, right? It was not the way it was supposed to be that Adam fell. God knew it was gonna happen. It was part of his decree, it as part of his plan, but it also was not the way it was supposed to be. And I know those two statements are co decree, but I think you guys understand what I'm getting at because humans fell and that was not the way they were intended to be.
God's wrath towards sin, which was never intended, is alien to his. Sort of inclinations. Again, it's really hard to talk about this stuff.
No,
but the father in this parable has no wrath to speak of, right? Like that's the, that's the crazy part about this parable. He has no wrath to speak of. He shows no wrath to the older son.
He shows no wrath to the younger son. He has nothing but gracious disposition and an intention to redeem and rescue his children. And that's amazing,
[00:55:59] Jesse Schwamb: right? It's not like wrath is foreign to God. I agree with you. I think what you said I think was fine because this is something we hold intention it, but we're all saying that it is like alien to his primary disposition.
It's not foreign to him. So like you said, the father is going out everywhere. It's all act of volitional love. He goes out to the younger, goes out to the elder. And in the, you know, former, the father's purpose is not only to just restore the prodigals, but also to unmasks the elder brothers slavery to wages, status, resentment.
And it's a good reminder for all of us that legalism is now obedience. Right? It's a different kind of lostness. But the great encouragement is in both of those lostness, is that Jesus comes running, he comes out, he comes to restore. He comes in mercy first. Just say, come it back into the kingdom. And that lostness of self-righteousness and distance from the father's heart is equally saveable.
Though it might look like it's some kind of respectable rebellion. It's not. And the point here, I, I think again, like when he gets to Jesus telling the story again, we gotta remember He's telling it when he says like, we had to celebrate. I wonder if he's looking in the eyes of the scribes of Pharisees because he basically, like we, all of us had to celebrate.
Are you not celebrating? Now, all I can think of is like gladiator when he is like, are you not entertained? Do you know what I mean? Like, are you, are we not celebrating, you know, what's happening here in the kingdom of God where sinners are being restored, where the down and out, the downtrodden and the marginalized and the priors are coming back in and finding relief and restoration and redemption.
Are we not celebrating? I think that's like the high calling, the exalted finale of this whole part of Luke 15. And there is an emphasis, especially in reform theology, which is right. Everything you just said. God's saving disposition is grounded in God's own will and love. It's not extracted some from kind of like human improvement or point of view or perspective, and that matters for Luke 15 because the parable can always be misread as God loves you once you come back.
Right. The father's running corrects this. He's going out to the elder son corrects us in this. Let me just read from Ephesians chapter one starting at verse four. Just as God chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be wholly and blameless before him in love by predestining us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, to himself according to the pleasure of His goodwill, to the praise and the glory of His grace, which he graciously bestowed on us in the beloved.
That's it.
[00:58:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I don't think there's anything better to say than that. This is, um. It's funny, we could continue. I mean, we make this joke all the time, but it's not even a joke here. Like, we could continue to talk about this parable for many more weeks.
[00:58:51] Tony Arsenal: We're not going to, I know like some people get a little bit of, uh, fatigue when we're going really deep diving in this, and I get that.
Um, but, but there's so much here to unpack. So we are gonna keep marching through the parables. We're not totally done with this little trio of parables. Because if, if you remember, I don't even remember when it was, if you remember way back, like four months ago, three months ago, we were working our way through Matthew.
We hadn't even got out of the first chapter of parables in Matthew,
right
when we had to jump over to Luke because of the way that it, it worked out. But Matthew uses these parables, not the parable of the, of the, um, father son, you know, whatever. Not this parable, but the parable of the lost sheep and the coins he uses.
For a different reason. So we're gonna come back to those a little bit. We're gonna talk about that a little bit next week. Um, and, and then we're gonna keep plugging along so you're not so far into this series that if you missed, if this is your first episode and you want to go back and catch up, um, you can do that.
There's not a huge, huge, huge amount of episodes, um, you know, set aside a work week worth of hours to, to go and listen to it. Um, you can trim that down if you can listen to a couple, couple times speed. Um, but we got a long way to go, so jump in with us. Grab your commentaries Next week we're gonna be back in Matthew 13, I think it was.
Um, we're gonna be talking about the lost, the lost sheep and the lost coin and why it is that Matthew positions it differently than Luke does. So I'm excited about that. This is actually something that's been bubbling up in my head for a long time, so I'm excited to get it out. Then we're gonna keep plugging along in the parables.
We're gonna keep going primarily in Matthew, but we'll jump in in other places when it's appropriate. Uh, and we're gonna keep going until we finish 'em all. It's like, it's like the Pokemon version of podcasting. You gotta catch 'em all and, and it's the parables instead of, you know, little Pokemon creatures.
[01:00:49] Jesse Schwamb: Catch 'em all. I'm not trying to be that guy honest, but just in case people are attracted with us. 'cause we, we don't want the commentary. It's Matthew 18. This will be. 18, I mean, the eight and the three look pretty close. So I, I think they're right on. Remember everybody's, I, I'm just picturing now like this is a game show.
You know, like game shows sometimes have that like al like there's a question up some point in the game show. I think everybody's gonna remember that. The question like, does it parallel? So we're gonna be going to not just like one version of this, but the different versions and the reason why I think we've been like pretty dutiful trying to set up what we think is like a groundwork by deliberately choosing one of the gospels to like kind of center us.
And then we're gonna be going around that because Matthew 18, while it is the same parallel like you and I were just talking about before we started recording, it does have some different perspective for us to take away from it. Yes. And so this is the beauty. We really can't get to the fun of the parallelism.
Like it's, it's no fun or it's not quite as good or effective to like do them side by side in real time. It's much better I think for us to sink in. A process and then to say like, okay, we just went through a lot of the great beautiful details here. What is this other version of the same thing? Tell us, or what are we picking up that even in, in its like perspective or approach that was slightly different from the first version that we looked at.
Yeah, that's the whole joy. So don't, don't like skip the next one. It's not gonna be the same conversation. It's actually gonna be a remarkably different conversation. And speaking of conversation.
[01:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: Tony people want to get in touch with you or they wanna get in touch with me if they wanna talk about what's going around in the world or converse us about the, the theology that we're speaking of here.
If you're new to reform theology and you think, you know, I might have to talk to somebody about that, uh, that we're not experts and not your pastor, what you should do is what, how can you find us?
[01:02:30] Tony Arsenal: You can join our telegram chat. Uh, we have a little corner of the internet that we've carved out. Uh, there's lots of great Christians in there, reform brothers and sisters, so it's not even just like, come talk to Jesse and Tony.
There's a whole group of people that love the Lord and love reform theology. Uh, you can go to, uh, t.me, the letter t.me/reformed brotherhood, and that will point you either to download a little app to use, or if you already have Telegram, which is the messaging app we use, it'll jump you right in there. Um, there's lots of prayer requests going on.
Um, conversations about books, people are reading. Um, you know, today there was a conversation about whether or not the first, uh, the things leading up to the eating of the forbidden fruit were, were actually thin, or whether they were some other category of, uh, sort of like moral neglect. Um, which was, is an interesting, you know, sort of theological conversation.
Um, but most of all, like it's just a place for us to, to. Fellowship with each other. It's not a replacement for your church. It can never be a replacement for your church, but it is a place where you can have some good, genuine, um, fellowship and some good fun times with other people who love the Lord.
[01:03:41] Jesse Schwamb: I love it.
So come hang out with us and if you don't, you can always come back here because as until the Lord comes, if he tarries another week, we will be back here talking about Matthew 18 and lostness all over again because there's some new stuff in there for us to explore and enjoy. So until next time, if you got it, go out in the cold.
And while you're there, honor everyone,
[01:04:05] Tony Arsenal: love that brotherhood.
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In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse continue their deep dive into the Parable of the Prodigal Son by examining the often-overlooked character of the elder brother. While the younger son's rebellion is obvious, the elder brother's self-righteous moralism represents a more subtle—and perhaps more dangerous—form of lostness. Through careful exegesis of Luke 15:25-32, the hosts explore how religious performance, resentment of grace, and merit-based thinking can keep us far from the Father's heart even while we remain close to the Father's house. This conversation challenges listeners to examine their own hearts for traces of elder brother theology and calls us to celebrate the scandalous grace that restores sinners to sonship.
The genius of Jesus' parable is that it exposes a form of lostness that religious people rarely recognize in themselves. The elder brother never left home, never squandered his inheritance, and never violated explicit commands. Yet his response to his brother's restoration reveals a heart fundamentally opposed to the father's character. His complaint—"I have served you all these years and never disobeyed your command"—demonstrates that he viewed his relationship with the father transactionally, as an employer-employee arrangement rather than a father-son bond. This is the essence of legalism: performing religious duties while remaining distant from God's heart. The tragedy is that the elder brother stood within reach of everything the father had to offer yet experienced none of the joy, fellowship, or security of sonship. This form of lostness is particularly dangerous because it wears the mask of righteousness and often goes undetected until grace is extended to someone we deem less deserving.
Just as the father ran to meet the returning younger son, he also went out to plead with the elder brother to come into the feast. This detail is theologically significant: God pursues both the openly rebellious and the self-righteous with the same gracious initiative. The father's response to the elder brother's complaint is not harsh correction but tender invitation: "Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours." This reveals that the problem was never scarcity or the father's favoritism—the elder brother had always possessed full access to the father's resources and affection. The barrier was entirely on the son's side: his inability to receive sonship as a gift rather than a wage. This mirrors the historical situation of the Pharisees and scribes who grumbled at Jesus for receiving sinners. They stood adjacent to the kingdom, surrounded by the promises and covenant blessings of God, yet remained outside because they could not accept grace as the principle of God's dealing with humanity. The invitation still stood, but it required them to abandon their merit-based system and enter the feast as recipients of unearned favor.
Luke deliberately leaves the parable unfinished—we never learn whether the elder brother eventually joined the celebration. This narrative technique places the reader in the position of the elder brother, forcing us to answer for ourselves: will we enter the feast or remain outside in bitter resentment? For the original audience of Pharisees and scribes, this unresolved ending was a direct challenge to their response to Jesus' ministry. Would they continue to grumble at God's grace toward tax collectors and sinners, or would they recognize their own need and join the celebration? For contemporary readers, the question remains equally pressing. When we hear of a notorious sinner coming to faith, do we genuinely rejoice, or do we scrutinize their repentance with suspicion? When churches extend membership to those with broken pasts, do we celebrate restoration or quietly question whether they deserve a place at the table? The parable's open ending is not a literary flaw but a pastoral strategy: it refuses to let us remain passive observers and demands that we examine whether we harbor elder brother theology in our own hearts.
The father's household is a place where grace produces joy, not just merely relief. The elder brother hears the joy before he sees it. That's often how resentment works, isn't it? We're alerted to the happiness of others and somehow there's this visceral response of wanting to be resentful toward that joy, toward that unmerited favor. — Jesse Schwamb
There is a way to be near the house, church adjacent, religiously active, yet to be really far from the father's heart. The elder brother is not portrayed as an atheist, but as a moralist. And moralism can be a more subtle distance than open rebellion. — Jesse Schwamb
God doesn't keep sinners from repenting. The reprobate are not prohibited or prevented by God from coming to faith. They're being kept out by their own stubborn refusal to come in. That's where this punchline hits so hard. — Tony Arsenal
[00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 477 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:51] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.
[00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.
[00:00:56] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, it struck me that this whole thing we've been doing all this parable talk is really after the manner of God's words.
And one of the things I've really grown to appreciate is how God speaks to the condition of those whom he addresses. He considers our ability, our capacity as his hearers to process what he's saying, and that leads into these amazing parables that we've been talking about. He doesn't speak as he is able to speak.
So to speak, but I didn't mean that to happen. But as we were able to hear, and that means he spoke in these lovely parables so that we might better understand him. And today we're gonna get into some of the drama of the best, like the crown jewel as we've been saying, of maybe all the parables. The Parable of the Lost Son.
We spoke a little bit about it in the last episode. Definitely want to hit that up because it's setting you up for this one, which is the definitive episode. But now we're gonna talk about this first, this younger lost son. Get into some of all of these like juicy details about what takes place, and really, again, see if we can find the heart of God.
Spoiler. We can and we'll,
[00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: yeah,
[00:02:04] Jesse Schwamb: but before we do both of those things, it's of course always time at this moment to do a little affirming with or denying against. Of course, if you haven't heard us before, that's where we take a moment to say, is there something that we think is undervalued that we wanna bring forward that we'd recommend or think is awesome?
Or conversely, is there something that's overvalued that's just, we're over it. The vibe is done. We're gonna deny against that. So I say to you, as I often do, Tony, are you affirming with or deny against?
[00:02:31] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming tonight. Um, I don't know how much the audience realizes of a giant ridiculous nerd I am, but we're about to go to entirely new giant nerd depths.
[00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: All right. I
[00:02:43] Tony Arsenal: think,
[00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: let's hear it.
[00:02:44] Tony Arsenal: So, um, I was a huge fan of Stranger Things. Some, there's some issues with the show, and I understand why some people might not, um, might not feel great about watching it. You know, I think it falls within Christian liberty. But one of the main themes of the show, this is not a spoiler, you learn about this in episode one, is the whole game.
The whole show frames itself around Dungeons and Dragons, right? It's kind of like a storytelling device within the show that the kids play, Dungeons and Dragons, and everything that happens in the Dungeons and Dragons game that they're playing, sort of like, um, foreshadows what's actually gonna happen in the show.
Which funny if, you know Dungeons and Dragons lore, you kind of learn the entire plot of the story like ahead of time. Um, but so I, stranger Things just finished up and I've kind of been like itching to get into Dungeons and Dragons. I used to play a little bit of tabletop when I was in high school, in early college and um, I just really like the idea of sort of this collaborative storytelling game.
Um, whether it's Dungeon Dragons or one of the other systems, um, Dungeons and Dragons is the most popular. It's the most well published. It's the most well established and it's probably the easiest to find a group to play with. Although it is very hard to find a group to play with, especially, uh, kind of out in the middle of nowhere where I live.
So this is where the ultra super nerdy part comes in.
[00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, here we
[00:04:03] Tony Arsenal: go. I have been painstakingly over the last week teaching Google Gemini. To be a dungeon master for me. So I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons more or less by myself with, uh, with Google Gemini, and I'm just having a lot of fun with it.
Um, you can get a free copy of the rules online if you, I think it's DND, the letter NDND beyond.com. They have a full suite of like tools to create your character. Access to a basic set of the core rules. Um, you can spend a lot of money on Dungeons and Dragons, uh, and if you want to like really get into it, the books are basically textbooks.
Like you're buying $300 or 300 page, $300, 300 page textbooks, um, that are not all that differently costs than like college textbooks. You'll buy a 300 page Dungeon master guide that's like $50 if you want a paper copy. So, but you can get into it for free. You can get the free rolls online, you can use their dungeon, the d and d Beyond app and do all your dice rolls for free.
Um, you, you can get a free dice roller online if you don't want to do their, their app. Um, but it's just a lot of fun. I've just been having a lot of fun and I found that the, I mean. When you play a couple sessions with it, you see that the, the um, the A IDM that I've created, like it follows the same story beats 'cause it's only got so much to work with in its language model.
Um, but I'm finding ways to sort of like break it out of that model by forcing it to refer to certain websites that are like Dungeons and Dragons lore websites and things like build your, build your campaign from this repository of Dungeons and Dragons stuff. So. I think you could do this with just about any sort of narrative storytelling game like this, whether you're playing a different system or d and d Pathfinders.
I mean, there's all sorts of different versions of it, but it's just been a lot of fun to see, see it going. I'm trying to get a group together. 'cause I think I would, I would probably rather play Dungeons and Dragons with people, um, and rather do it in person. But it's hard to do up here. It's hard to get a, get a group going.
So that's my super nerdy affirmation. I'm not just affirming Dungeons and Dragons, which would already be super nerdy. I'm affirming playing it by myself on my phone, on the bus with Google Gemini, AI acting like I'm not. Just this weird antisocial lunatic. So I'm having a lot of fun with it.
[00:06:20] Jesse Schwamb: So there are so many levels of inception there.
Yeah. Like the inception and everything you just said. I love it.
[00:06:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, what I'm learning is, um, you can give an, and, and this is something I didn't realize, what ai, I guess I probably should have, you know, it's not like an infinite thing. Um, you can give an AI instructions and if your chat gets long enough, it actually isn't referring back to the very beginning of the chat most of the time.
Right. There's a, there's like a win context window of about 30 responses. So like if you tell the AI, don't roll the dice for me, like, let me roll dices that are related to my actions, eventually it will forget that. So part of what I've been doing is basically building, I'm using Google Gemini when the AI does something I don't want it to do, I say, you just did something I don't want it to do.
Gimme a diagnostic report of why you did that. It will explain to me why it did what it did. Right. Why it didn't observe the rules. And then I'm feeding that into another. Prompt that is helping me generate better prompts that it refers back to. So it's kind of this weird iterative, um, yeah, I, I don't, I'm like, I maybe I'm gonna create the singularity.
I'm not sure. Maybe this is gonna be possible. We should sit over the edge. It's gonna, it's gonna learn how to cast magic spells and it's gonna fire bolt us in the face or something like that. Right. But, uh, again, high risk. I, I, for one, welcome our AO AI dungeon masters. So check it out. You should try it.
If you could do this with chat GPT, you could do it with any ai. Um, it, it, it is going to get a little, I have the benefit because I have a Google Workspace account. I have access to Google Pro or the Gemini Pro, which is a better model for this kind of thing. But you could do this with, with chat GPT or something like that.
And it's gonna be more or less the same experience, I think. But I'm having a, I'm having a ton of fun with it. Um. Again, I, I, there's something about just this, Dungeons and Dragons at its core is a, it's like a, an exercise in joint storytelling, which is really fascinating and interesting to me. Um, and that's what most tabletop RPGs are like.
I suppose you get into something like War Hammer and it's a little bit more like a board. It's a mixture of that plus a board game. But Dungeons and Dragons, the DM is creating the, I mean, not the entire world, but is creating the narrative. And then you as a player are an actor within that narrative. And then there's a certain element of chance that dice rolls play.
But for the most part, um, you're driving the story along. You're telling the story together. So it's, it's pretty interesting. I've also been watching live recordings of Dungeons and Dragon Sessions on YouTube. Oh,
[00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: wow.
[00:08:51] Tony Arsenal: Like, there's a, there's a channel called Critical Role. Like these sessions are like three and a half hours long.
So, wow. I just kinda have 'em on in the background when I'm, when I'm, uh, working or if I'm, you know, doing something else. Um, but it's really interesting stuff. It's, it's pretty cool. I think it's fun. I'm a super nerd. I'm, I'm no shame in that. Um, I'm just really enjoying it.
[00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, nerdery is great. That's like part of the zeitgeist now.
Listen to culture. It's cool to be a nerd. I don't know much about d and d. I've heard a lot about this idea of this community that forms around. Yeah. The story, correct me if I'm wrong, can't these things go on for like years, decades?
[00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, yeah. Like, you can do there. There, some of this has made its way into the official rule books, but basically you could do what's called a one shot, which is like a self-contained story.
Usually a single session, you know, like you get a Dungeon master, game master, whichever you wanna call the person. Three to four, maybe five characters, player characters. And one session is usually about two hours long. So it's not like you sit down for 20 minutes, 30 minutes at a time and play this right.
And you could do a one shot, which is a story that's designed to, to live all within that two hour session. Um, some people will do it where there isn't really any planned like, outcome of the story. The, the DM just kind of makes up things to do as they go. And then you can have campaigns, which is like, sometimes it's like a series of one shots, but more, it is more like a long term serialized period, you know, serialized campaign where you're doing many, um, many, many kinds of, uh, things all in one driving to like a big epic goal or battle at the end, right?
Um, some groups stay together for a really long time and they might do multiple campaigns, so there's a lot to it. Game's been going on for like 50, 60, 70 years, something like that. I don't remember exactly when it started, but
[00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: yeah.
[00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, it's an old game. It's kinda like the doctor who of of poor games and it's like the original tabletop role playing game, I think.
[00:10:47] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Again, there's something really appealing to me about not just that cooperative storytelling, but cooperative gameplay. Everybody's kind of in it together for the most part. Yeah. Those conquest, as I understand them, are joint in nature. You build solidarity, but if you're meeting with people and having fun together and telling stories and interacting with one another, there's a lot of good that comes out of that stuff there.
A lot of lovely common grace in those kind of building, those long-term interactions, relationships, entertainment built on being together and having good, clean, fun together.
[00:11:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, it's, um. It's an interesting exercise. It's it, in some ways it's very much like improv. Like you, you think of like an improv comedy like show I've been to somewhere.
Like, you know, you go to the show and it's an improv troupe, but they're like calling people from the crowd up and asking them for like different scenarios they might do. It's kind of like that in that like the GM can plan a whole, can plan a whole thing. But if I as a player character, um. And I've done this to the virtual one just to see what it does, and it's done some interesting things.
One of the campaigns I was playing, I had rescued a merchant from some giant spiders and I was helping, like, I was helping like navigate them through the woods to the next town. And we kept on getting attacked and just outta nowhere. I was like, what if I sort of act as though I'm suspicious of this merchant now because why are we getting attacked all the time?
And so I, I typed in sort of like a little. A mini role play of me accusing this guy. And it was something like, Randall, we get, we're getting attacked a lot for a simple merchant, Randall merchant. What happens if I cast a tech magic? What am I gonna find? And he's like, I don't know what I'm gonna find. I know I don't know anything.
And then I cast a tech magic and it shifted. I mean, I don't know where the campaign was gonna go before that, but it shifted the whole thing now where the person who gave him the package he was carrying had betrayed him. It was, so that happens in real life too in these games, real life in these games.
That happens in real, in-person sessions too, where a player or a group of players may just decide instead of talking to the contact person that is supposed to give them the clue to find the dungeon they're supposed to go to, instead they ambush them and murder them in gold blood. And now the, the dungeon master has to figure out, how do I get them back to this dungeon when this is the only person that was supposed to know where it is?
So it, it does end up really stretching your thinking skills and sort of your improvisational skills. There's an element of, um, you know, like chance with the dice, um, I guess like the dice falls in the lot, but the lot is in the handle. Or like, obviously that's all ordained as well too, but there is this element of chance where even the DM doesn't get to determine everything.
Um, if, if I say I want to, I want to try to sneak into this room, but I'm a giant barbarian who has, you know, is wearing like chain mail, there's still a chance I could do it, but the dice roll determines that. It's not like the, the GM just says you can't do that. Um, so it's, it's a, I, I like it. I'm, I'm really looking forward to trying to, getting into it.
It is hard to start a group and to get going and, um, there's a part of me that's a little bit. Gun shy of maybe like getting too invested with a group of non-Christians for something like this. 'cause it can get a little weird sometimes. But I think that, I think that'll work out. It'll be fun. I know there's actually some people in our telegram chat.
Bing, bing, bing segue. There we go. There's some people in our telegram chat actually, that we're already planning to do a campaign. Um, so we might even do like a virtual reform brotherhood, Dungeons and Dragons group. So that might be a new sub channel in the telegram at some point.
[00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. You could jump right in.
Go to t.me back slash reform brotherhood.
[00:14:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming since I just spent the last 15 minutes gushing about my nerdy hobby?
[00:14:23] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, no, that was great. Can I, can I just say two things? One is, so you're basically saying it's a bit like, like a troll shows up and everybody's like, yes. And yeah.
So I love that idea. Second thing, which is follow up question, very brief. What kind of merchant was Randall.
[00:14:39] Tony Arsenal: Uh, he was a spice trader actually.
[00:14:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I don't trust that.
[00:14:43] Tony Arsenal: And, and silk, silk and spices.
[00:14:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's double, that's too strict.
[00:14:47] Tony Arsenal: He was actually good guy in the, in the story that developed out of this campaign.
He actually became part of my family and like, like, like got adopted into the family because he lost everything on his own. Randy we're
[00:15:00] Jesse Schwamb: talking about Randy.
[00:15:01] Tony Arsenal: Randy Randall with one L. Yeah. The AI was very specific about
that.
[00:15:05] Jesse Schwamb: There's, there's nothing about this guy I trust. I, is this still ongoing? Because I think he's just trying to make his way deeper in,
[00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: uh, no, no.
It, I'll, I'll wait for next week to tell you how much, even more nerdy this thing gets. But there's a whole thing that ha there was a whole thing out of this That's a tease. Tease. There was a, there was a horse and the horse died and there was lots of tears and there was a wedding and a baby. It was, it's all sorts of stuff going on in this campaign.
[00:15:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I'm sure. Randy was somewhere near that horse when it happened. Right?
[00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: It was his horse.
[00:15:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly. That's
[00:15:35] Tony Arsenal: exactly, he didn't, he didn't kill the horse. He had no power to knock down the bridge The horse was standing on.
[00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, next week, I'm pretty sure that's what we're gonna learn is that it was all him.
[00:15:45] Tony Arsenal: Alright, Jesse, save us from this. Save us from this, please. Uh,
[00:15:49] Jesse Schwamb: no.
What
[00:15:50] Tony Arsenal: you affirming, this is
[00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: great.
[00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: It's possible that there is a crossover between yours and mine if we consider. That the church is like playing a d and d game in the dungeon Masters Christ, and the campaigns, the gospel. So I was thinking maybe is it possible, uh, maybe this is just the, the theology of the cross, but that sometimes, like you need the denial to get to the affirmation.
Have we talked about that kind of truth? Yeah,
[00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: yeah,
[00:16:15] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. So here's a little bit of that. I'll be very, very brief and I'm using this not as like just one thing that happened today, but what I know is for sure happening all over the world. And I mean that very literally, not just figuratively when it comes to the body of Christ, the local church.
So it snowed here overnight. This was, this is the Lord's Day. We're hanging out in the Lord's Day, which is always a beautiful day to talk about God. And overnight it snowed. The snow stopped relatively late in the morning around the time that everybody would be saying, Hey, it's time to go and worship the Lord.
So for those in my area, I got up, we did the whole clearing off the Kai thing. I went to church and I was there a little bit early for a practice for music. And when I pulled in, there weren't many there yet, but the whole parking lot unplowed. So there's like three inches of snow, unplowed parking lot. So I guess the denial is like the plow people decided like, not this time I, I don't think so.
They understood they were contracted with the church, but my understanding is that when one of the deacons called, they were like, Ooh, yeah, we're like 35 minutes away right now, so that's gonna be a problem. So when I pulled in, here's what I was. Like surprise to find, but in a totally unexpected way, even though I understand what a surprise is.
And that is that, uh, that first the elders and the deacons, everybody was just decided we're going to shovel an entire parking lot. And at some point big, I was a little bit early there, but at some point then this massive text change just started with everybody, which was, Hey, when you come to church, bring your shovel.
And I, I will tell you like when I got out of the car. I was so like somebody was immediately running to clear a path with me. One of those like snow pushers, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like one, those beastly kind of like blade things.
[00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: Those things are, those things are the best.
[00:17:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You just run. And so you have never met a group of people that was more happy to shovel an entire large asphalt area, which normally shouldn't even be required.
And. It just struck me, even in hindsight now thinking about it, it was this lovely confluence of people serving each other and serving God. It was as if they got up that morning and said, do you know what would be the best thing in the world for me to do is to shovel. And so everybody was coming out.
Everybody was shoveling it. It was to protect everyone and to allow one into elaborate, one access. It was just incredible. And so I started this because the affirmation is, I know this happens in, in all of our churches, every God fearing God, loving God serving church, something like this is happening, I think on almost every Lord's day or maybe every day of the week in various capacities.
And I just think this is God's people coming together because everybody, I think when we sat down for the message was exhausted, but. But there was so much joy in doing this. I think what you normally would find to be a mundane and annoying task, and the fact that it wasn't just, it was redeemed as if like we, we found a greater purpose in it.
But that's, everyone saw this as a way to love each other and to love God, and it became unexpected worship in the parking lot. That's really what it was, and it was fantastic. I really almost hope that we just get rid of the plow company and just do it this way from now on. Yeah, so I'm affirming, recognize people, recognize brothers and sisters that your, your church is doing this stuff all the time and, and be a part of it.
Jump in with the kinda stuff because I love how it brings forward the gospel.
[00:19:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great story. It's a great, uh, a great example of the body of Christ being, what the body of Christ is and just pulling together to get it done. Um, which, you know, we do on a spiritual level, I think, more often than a physical level these days.
Right, right. But, um, that's great. I'm sitting here going three inches of snow. I would've just pulled into the lot and then pulled out of the lot. But New Hampshire, it hits different in New Hampshire. Like we all d have snow tires and four wheel drive.
[00:20:02] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's enough snow where it was like pretty wet and heavy that it, if, you know, you pack that stuff down, it gets slick.
You can't see the people, like you can't have your elderly people just flying in, coming in hot and then trying to get outta the vehicle, like making their way into church.
[00:20:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:20:15] Jesse Schwamb: So there was, there was a lot more of that. But I think again, you would, one of the options would've been like, Hey, why don't we shovel out some sp spaces for the, for those who need it, for, you know, those who need to have access in a way that's a little bit less encumbered.
Oh, no, no. These people are like, I see your challenge and I am going to shovel the entire parking lots.
[00:20:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It used to happen once in a while, uh, at the last church, uh, at, um, your dad's church. We would, where the plow would just not come on a Sunday morning or, or more often than not. Um, you know, what happens a lot of times is the plows don't want to come more than once.
Right. If they don't have to. Or sometimes they won't come if they think it's gonna melt because they don't want to deal with, uh, with like customers who are mad that you plowed and that it all melts. But either way, once in a while. The plow wouldn't come or it wouldn't come in time. And what we would do is instead of trying to shovel an entire driveway thing, we would just went, the first couple people who would get there, the young guys in the church, there was only a couple of us, but the younger guys in the church would just, we would just be making trips, helping people into the, yeah.
Helping people into the building. So, um, it was a pretty, you know, it was a small church, so it was like six trips and we'd have everybody in, but um, we just kind of, that was the way we pulled together. Um, yeah, that's a great, it's a great story. I love, I love stuff like that. Yeah, me too. Whether it's, whether it's, you know, plowing a, a parking lot with shovels instead of a plow, or it's just watching, um, watching the tables and the chairs from the fellowship, you know, all just like disappear because everybody's just, uh, picks up after themselves and cleans and stuff.
That's, that's like the most concrete example of the body of Christ doing what the body of Christ does. Um, it's always nice, you know, we always hear jokes about like, who can carry the most, the most chairs,
[00:22:04] Jesse Schwamb: most
[00:22:04] Tony Arsenal: chairs. Uh, I think it's true. Like a lot of times I think like I could do like seven or eight sometimes.
[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, you, that's, so, one more thing I wanna say. I, I wanted to tell you this privately, Tony, 'cause it just cracked me up 'cause I, you'll appreciate this. But now I'm realizing I think the brothers and sisters who listened to us talk for any length of time and in the context of this conversation, but the church will appreciate this too.
On my way out, I, I happened because I was there early and the snow was crazy. I parked way further out, way on the edge of the lot to just allow for greater access because of all the shoveling that was happening. And by the way, I really hope there were a ton of visitors this morning because they were like, wow, this, this church is wild.
They love to shovel their own lot and they're the happiest people doing it. Some sweaty person just ushered me in while they were casting snow. Like,
[00:22:47] Tony Arsenal: is this some new version of snake handling? You shovel your own lot and your impervious to back injuries.
[00:22:53] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. So I was walking out and as I walked past, uh, there was a, uh, two young gentlemen who were congregating by this very large lifted pickup truck, which I don't have much experience with, but it looked super cool and it was started, it was warming up, and they were just like casually, like in the way that only like people with large beards wearing flannel and Carhartt kind of do, like casually leaning against the truck, talking in a way that you're like, wow, these guys are rugged.
And they sound, they're super cool, and they're probably like in their twenties. And all I hear as I pass by is one guy going, yeah, well, I mean that's, I was, I said to them too, but I said, listen, I'd rather go to a church with God-fearing women than anywhere else.
[00:23:36] Tony Arsenal: Nice.
[00:23:37] Jesse Schwamb: I was just like, yep. On the prowl and I love it.
And they're not wrong. This is the place to be.
[00:23:42] Tony Arsenal: It is.
[00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This is the place to be. Yeah. So all kinds of, all kinds of good things I think going on in that in the house of the Lord and where wherever you're at, I would say be happy and be joyful and look for those things and participate in, like you said, whether it's physical or not, but as soon as you said like the, our young men, our youth somehow have this competition of when we need to like pack up the sanctuary.
How many chairs can I take at one time? Yeah. It's like the classic and it just happens. Nobody says like, okay, everybody line up. We're about to embark on the competition now. Like the strong man usher competition. It's just like, it just happens and
[00:24:17] Tony Arsenal: it's
[00:24:17] Jesse Schwamb: incredible.
[00:24:18] Tony Arsenal: I mean, peacocks fan out their tail feathers.
Young Christian guys fan out. All of the table chairs, chairs they can carry. It's uh, it's a real phenomena. So I feel like if you watch after a men's gathering, everybody is like carrying one chair at a time because they don't wanna hurt their backs and their arms. Oh, that's
[00:24:36] Jesse Schwamb: true. That's
[00:24:37] Tony Arsenal: what I do. Yeah.
But it's when the women are around, that's when you see guys carrying like 19 chairs. Yeah. Putting themselves in the hospital.
[00:24:42] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I, listen, it comes for all of us. Like I, you know, I'm certainly not young anymore by almost any definition, but even when I'm in the mix, I'm like, oh, I see you guys.
You wanna play this game? Mm-hmm. Let's do this. And then, you know, I'm stacking chairs until I hurt myself. So it's great. That's, that is what we do for each other. It's
[00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: just, I hurt my neck getting outta bed the other day. So it happens. It's real.
[00:25:05] Jesse Schwamb: The struggle. Yeah, the struggle is real.
[00:25:07] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of struggle, speaking of family issues, speaking of all kinds of drama, let's get into Luke 15 and let me read just, I would say the first part of this parable, which as we've agreed to talk about, if we can even get this far, it's just the younger son.
[00:25:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:25:25] Jesse Schwamb: And again, don't worry, we're gonna get to all of it, but let me read beginning in, uh, verse 11 here. This is Luke chapter 15. Come follow along as you will accept if you're operating heavy machinery. And Jesus said, A man had two sons and the younger of them said to his father, father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.
So he divided his wealth between them. And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country. And there he squandered his estate living recklessly. Now, when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country and it began to be impoverished.
So he went and hired himself to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. So he went and as he was desiring to be fed with the pods that the swine were eating because no one was giving anything to him. But when he came to himself, he said, how many of my father's men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger.
I'll rise up and go to my father, and I'll say to him, father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired men. So he rose up, came to his father, but while he was still a long way off. His father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him.
And the son said to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his slaves, quickly, bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet and bring the fat in calf and slaughter it and let us celebrate.
For the son of mine was dead and has come to life again. He was lost and he has been found and they began to celebrate.
[00:27:09] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a, um, such a, I don't know, like pivotal seminal parable in the Ministry of Christ. Um, it's one of those parables and we, we mentioned this briefly last week that even most.
It, it hasn't passed out of the cultural zeitgeist yet. A lot of biblical teaching has, I mean, a lot, I think a lot of things that used to be common knowledge where, where you could make a reference to something in the Bible and people would just get it. Um, even if they weren't Christian or weren't believers, they would still know what you were talking about.
There's a lot of things in the Bible that have passed out of that cultural memory. The, the parable of the prodigal son, lost son, however you wanna phrase it, um, that's not one of them. Right. So I think it's really important for us, um, and especially since it is such a beautiful picture of the gospel and it has so many different theological touch points, it's really incumbent on us to spend time thinking about this because I would be willing to bet that if you weave.
Elements of this parable into your conversations with nonbelievers that you are praying for and, and, you know, witnessing to and sharing the gospel with, if you weave this in there, you're gonna help like plant some seeds that when it comes time to try to harvest, are gonna pay dividends. Right. So I think it's a really, it's a really great thing that we're gonna be able to spend, you know, a couple weeks really just digging into this.
[00:28:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and to define the beginning, maybe from the end, just slightly here, I like what you said about this cultural acknowledgement of this. I think one of the correctives we can provide, which is clear in the story, is in the general cultural sense. We speak of this prodigal as something that just returns comes back, was lost, but now is found.
And often maybe there is this component of, in the familial relationship, it's as if they've been restored. Here we're gonna of course find that this coming to one senses is in fact the work of God. That there is, again, a little bit of denial that has to bring forward the affirmation here that is the return.
And so again, from the beginning here, we're just talking about the younger son. We have more than youthful ambition.
[00:29:19] Jesse Schwamb: This heart of, give me the stuff now, like so many have said before, is really to say. Give me the gifts and not you, which is, I think, a common fault of all Christians. We think, for instance of heaven, and we think of all the blessings that come with it, but not necessarily of the joy of just being with our savior, being with Christ.
And I think there's something here right from the beginning, there's a little bit of this betrayal in showing idolatry, the ugliness of treating God's gifts as if there's something owed. And then this idea that of course. He receives these things and imme more or less immediately sometime after he goes and takes these things and squanderers them.
And sin and idolatry, I think tends to accelerate in this way. The distance from the father becomes distance from wisdom. We are pulled away from that, which is good. The father here being in his presence and being under his care and his wisdom and in his fear of influence and concern, desiring then to say, I don't want you just give me the gifts that you allegedly owe me.
And then you see how quickly like sin does everything you, we always say like, sin always costs more than you want to pay. And it always takes you further than you want to go. And that's exactly what we see here. Like encapsulated in an actual story of relationship and distance.
[00:30:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think, um.
It's interesting to me.
[00:30:39] Tony Arsenal: You know, I, I, I'm a big fan of saying you don't need to study Greek to understand your Bible, but I'm also a big fan of saying understanding a little bit of Greek is really helpful. And one of the things that I think is really intriguing, and I haven't quite parsed out exactly what I think this means, but the word property in this parable, it actually is two different Greek words that is translated as property, at least in the ESV.
And neither one of them really fit. What our normal understanding of property would be. And there are Greek words that refer to like all of your material possessions, but it says, father, give me the share of property. And he uses the word usia, which those of us who have heard anything about the trinity, which is all of us, um, know that that word means something about existence.
It's the core essence of a person. So it says, father, give me the share of usia that is coming to me. And then it says, and he divided his bias, his, his life between them. Then it says, not many days later, the younger son gathered all that he had took a journey into the far country. There he squandered his usia again.
So this, this parable, Christ is not using the ordinary words to refer to material, uh, material accumulation and property like. I think probably, you know, Christ isn't like randomly using these words. So there probably is an element that these were somehow figuratively used of one's life possessions. But the fact that he's using them in these particular ways, I think is significant.
[00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: And so the, the, the younger son here, and I don't even like calling this the prodigal sun parable because the word prodigal doesn't like the equivalent word in Greek doesn't appear in this passage. And prodigal doesn't mean like the lost in returned, like prodigal is a word that means like the one who spends lavishly, right?
So we call him the prodigal son because he went and he squandered all of his stuff and he spent all of his money. So it doesn't even really describe the main feature or the main point of why this, this parable is here. It's just sort of like a random adjective that gets attached to it. But all of that aside, um.
This parable starts off not just about wasting our property, like wasting our things, but it's a parable that even within the very embedded language of the parable itself is talking about squandering our very life, our very essence, our very existence is squandered and wasted as we depart from the Father.
Right? And this is so like, um, it's almost so on the head, on the on the nose that it's almost a little like, really Jesus. Like this is, this is so like, slap you in the face kind of stuff. This is right outta like Romans, uh, Romans one, like they did not give thanks to God. They did not show gratitude to God or acknowledge him as God.
This is what's happening in this parable. The son doesn't go to his father and say, father, I love you. I'm so happy to stay with you. I'm so happy to be here. He, he basically says like. Give me your very life essence, and I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go spend it on prostitutes. I'm gonna go waste your life, father, I'm gonna waste your life, your existence, your bias.
I'm gonna go take that and I'm gonna squander it on reckless living. And I guess we don't know for sure. He, it doesn't say he spends it on prostitutes. That's something his brother says later and assumes he did. So I, I don't know that we do that. But either way, I'm gonna take what's yours, your very life, your very essence.
And also that my life, my essence, the gift you've given me as my father, you've given me my life. In addition now to your life or a portion of your life. And I'm gonna go squander that on reckless living, right? Like, how much of a picture of sin is that, that we, we take what we've been given by God, our very life, our very essence, we owe him everything, and we squander that on sinful, reckless living.
That that's just a slap in the face in the best way right out of the gate here.
[00:34:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that, that's a great point because it's, it would be one thing to rebel over disobedience, another thing to use the very life essence that you've been given for destructive, self-destructive purposes. And then to use that very energy, which is not yours to begin with, but has been imbued in yours, external, all of these things.
And then to use that very thing as the force of your rebellion. So it's double insult all the way around. I'm with you in the use of Greek there. Thank you. Locus Bio software. Not a sponsor of the podcast, but could be. And I think that's why sometimes in translations you get the word like a state because it's like the closest thing we can have to understanding that it's property earned through someone's life more or less.
Yeah. And then is passed down, but as representative, not just of like, here's like 20 bucks of cash, but something that I spent all of me trying to earn and. And to your point, also emphasizing in the same way that this son felt it was owed him. So it's like really bad all around and I think we would really be doing ourselves a disservice if we didn't think that there's like a little bit of Paul washer saying in this, like I'm talking about you though.
So like just be like, look at how disrespectful the sun is. Yeah. Haven't we all done this? To God and bringing up the idea of prodigal being, so that, that is like the amazing juxtaposition, isn't it? Like Prodigal is, is spent recklessly, parsimonious would be like to, to save recklessly, so to speak. And then you have the love the father demonstrates coming against all of that in the same way with like a totally different kind of force.
So.
[00:36:02] Jesse Schwamb: What I find interesting, and I think this is like set up in exactly what you said, is that when you get to verse 14 and this famine comes, it's showing us, I think that like providence exposes what Sin conceals.
[00:36:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:36:16] Jesse Schwamb: And want arrives. Not just because like the money ran out, but because again, like these idols, what he's replaced the father with, they don't satisfy.
And repentance then often begins when God shows the emptiness of light apart life apart from him. That's like the affirmation being born out of the denial. And so I think that this also is evolving for us, this idea that God is going to use hardship, not as mere punishment, but as mercy that wakes us up and that the son here is being woken up, but not, of course, it's not as if he goes into the land, like you said, starts to spend, is like, whoa, hold on a second.
This seems like a bad idea. It's not until all of that sin ever, like the worship of false things collapses under its own weight before it, which is like the precursor of the antecedent, I think, to this grand repentance or this waking up.
[00:37:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I also think it's, um.
[00:37:08] Tony Arsenal: A feature of this that I haven't reflected on too deeply, but is, is worth thinking about is the famine that's described here only occurs in this far country that he's in.
[00:37:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:37:17] Tony Arsenal: Right. So even that's right. And this is like a multitude of foolish decisions. This is compounding foolish decisions that don't, don't make any sense. Like they don't really actually make any sense. Um. There's not a logic to this, this lost son's decision making. He takes the property. Okay. I guess maybe like you could be anxious to get your inheritance, but then like he takes it to a far country.
Like there's no reason for him to do that. If at any point through this sort of insane process he had stopped short, he would not have been in the situation he was in. Yes. And that, I love that phrase, that providence, you know, reveals, I don't know exactly how you said it, but like providence reveals what our sin can bring to us.
Like he first see sins against his father by sort of like demanding, demanding his inheritance early. Then he takes it and he leaves his country for no reason. He goes to this far country, then he spends everything and then the famine arises. Right? And the famine arises in this other country.
[00:38:13] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:38:13] Tony Arsenal: And that's, I think that is still again, like a picture of sin.
Like we. We don't just, we don't just take what the father has and, and like spend it like that would be bad enough if we weren't grateful for what we have and what we've been given, and we just waste it. But on top of that, now we also have taken ourselves to a far country. Like we've gone away from the good, the good land of the Lord, as those who are not regenerate.
We've gone away from the, the Lord into this far country. And it's not until we start to have this famine that we recognize what we've done. And again, this is, this is where I think we get a picture. There's so many theological, like points in this parable particular that it almost feels a little bit like a, like a.
Parable that's intended to teach some systematic theology about for sure, the oral salus, which I think there's probably a lot of like biblical theology people that are ready to just crawl through the screen and strangle me for saying that. But this is such a glorious picture of, of regeneration too.
[00:39:16] Tony Arsenal: Like he comes to himself, there's nothing, there's nothing in the story that's like, oh, and the servant that he was, the other servant he was talking to mentioned that the famine, like there's nothing here that should prompt him to want to go back to his home, to think that his father could or would do anything about it, except that he comes to himself.
He just comes to the realization that his father is a good man and is wise and has resources, and has takes care of his, of his servants on top of how he takes care of his sons. That is a picture of regeneration. There's no, yeah. Logical, like I'm thinking my way into it, he just one day realizes how much, how many of my father's servants have more than enough bread.
Right. But I'm perishing here in this, this foolish other country with nothing. Right. I can't even, and the, the pods that the pigs ate, we can even, we can get into the pods a little bit here, but like. He wants to eat the pods. The pods that he's giving the pigs are not something that's even edible to humans.
He's that destitute, that he's willing to eat these pods that are like, this is the leftover stuff that you throw to the pigs because no, no, nobody and nothing else can actually eat it. And that's the state he's in at the very bottom, in the very end of himself where he realizes my father is good and he loves me, and even if I can never be his son again, surely he'll take care of me.
I mentioned it last week, like he wasn't going back thinking that this was gonna be a failing proposition. He went back because he knew or he, he was confident that his father was going to be able to take care of him and would accept him back. Right. Otherwise, what would be the point of going back? It wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, um, a mission he expected to fail at.
He expected there to be a positive outcome or he wouldn't have done it. Like, it wouldn't make any sense to try that if there wasn't the hope of some sort of realistic option.
[00:41:09] Jesse Schwamb: And I think his confidence in that option, as you were saying, is in this way where he's constructed a transaction. Yeah. That he's gonna go back and say, if you'll just take me out as a slave, I know you have slaves, I will work for you.
Right. Therefore, I feel confident that you'll accept me under those terms because I'll humble myself. And why would you not want to remunerate? Me for the work that I put forward. So you're right, like it's, it's strange that he basically comes to this, I think, sense that slavery exists in his life and who would he rather be the slave of,
[00:41:38] Tony Arsenal: right?
[00:41:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so he says, listen, I'm gonna come to the father and give him this offer. And I'm very confident that given that offer and his behavior, what I know about how he treats his other slaves, that he will hire me back because there's work to do. And therefore, as a result of the work I put forward, he will take care of me.
How much of like contemporary theology is being preached in that very way right now?
[00:41:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:41:59] Jesse Schwamb: And that's really like why the minimum wages of sin is all of this stuff. It's death. It's the consequences that we're speaking about here. By the way, the idea about famine is really interesting. I hadn't thought about that.
It is interesting, again, that sin casts him out into this foreign place where the famine occurs. And that famine is the beginning of his realization of the true destruction, really how far he's devolved and degraded in his person and in his relationships and in his current states. And then of course, the Bible is replete with references and God moving through famine.
And whereas in Genesis, we have a local famine, essentially casting Joseph brothers into a foreign land to be freed and to be saved.
[00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: Right.
[00:42:40] Jesse Schwamb: We have the exact opposite, which is really kind of interesting. Yeah. So we probably should talk about, you know, verse 15 and the, and the pig stuff. I mean, I think the obvious statement here is that.
It would be scandalous, like a Jewish hero would certainly feel the shame of the pigs. They represent UNC cleanliness and social humiliation. I'm interested again, in, in this idea, like you've started us on that the freedom that this younger brother sought for becomes slavery. It's kind of bondage of the wills style.
Yeah. Stuff. There's like an, an attentiveness in the story to the degrading reversal in his condition. And it is interesting that we get there finally, like the bottom of the pit maybe, or the barrel is like you said, the pods, which it's a bit like looking at Tide pods and being like, these are delicious.
I wish I could just eat these. So I, I think your point isn't lost. Like it's not just that like he looked at something gross and was so his stomach was grumbling so much that he might find something in there that he would find palatable. It, it's more than that. It's like this is just total nonsense. It, this is Romans one.
[00:43:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these pods, like, these aren't, um, you know, I guess I, I don't know exactly what these are. I'm sure somebody has done all of the historical linguistic studies, but the Greek word is related to the, the word for keratin. So like the, the same, the same root word. And we have to be careful not to define a Greek word based on how we use it.
That's a reverse etymology fallacy. Like dunamis doesn't mean dynamite, it's the other direction. But the Greek word is used in other places, in Greek literature to describe like the horns of rhinoc, like,
[00:44:21] Jesse Schwamb: right,
[00:44:21] Tony Arsenal: this, these aren't like. These aren't pea pods. I've heard this described like these are like little vegetable pods.
No, this is like they're throwing pieces of bone to the pigs.
[00:44:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:44:31] Tony Arsenal: And the pigs, the pigs can manage it. And this is what this also like, reinforces how destitute and how deep the famine is. Like this isn't as though, like this is the normal food you give to pigs. Like usually you feed pigs, like you feed pigs, like the extra scraps from your table and like other kinds of like agricultural waste.
These are, these are like chunks of bony keratin that are being fed to the pigs. So that's how terrible the famine is that not even the pigs are able to get food.
[00:45:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:45:00] Tony Arsenal: They're given things that are basically inedible, but the pigs can manage it. And this, this kid is so hungry, he's so destitute that he says, man, I wish I could chew on those bony, those bony pods that I'm feeding them because that's how hungry and starved I am.
You get the picture that this, um. This lost son is actually probably not just metaphorically on the brink of death, but he's in real risk of starvation, real risk of death that he, he can't even steal. He can't even steal from the pigs what they're eating, right? Like he can't even, he can't even glean off of what the pigs are eating just to stay alive.
He, he's literally in a position where he has no hope of actually rescuing himself. The only thing that he can do, and this is the realization he has, the only thing he can do is throw himself back on the mercy of his father.
[00:45:50] Jesse Schwamb: That's
[00:45:50] Tony Arsenal: right. And, and hope, again, I think hope with confidence, but hope that his father will show mercy on him and his, his conception.
I wanna be careful in this parable not to, I, I think there's something to what you're getting at or kinda what you're hinting at, that like his conception of mercy is. Not the full picture of the gospel. Yes. His conception of mercy is that he's going to be able to go and work and be rewarded for his laborers in a way that he can survive.
And the gospel is so much broader and so much bigger than that. But at the same time, I think it's, it's actually also a confident hope, a faith-filled hope that his father's mercy is going to rescue him, is going to save him. So it is this picture of what we do. And, and I think, I think sometimes, um, I want to be careful how we say this 'cause I don't wanna, I don't want to get a bunch of angry emails and letters, but I think sometimes we, um, we make salvation too much of a theology test.
And there's probably people that are like, Tony, did you really just say that? I think there are people who trust in the Lord Jesus thinking that that means something akin to what. This lost son thinks
[00:47:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:47:03] Tony Arsenal: Exactly. They trust. They trust that Jesus is merciful and, and I'm not necessarily thinking of Roman Catholics.
I'm not thinking of Roman Catholic theology for sure. I do think there are a fair number of Roman Catholic individuals that fall into this category where they trust Jesus to save them. Right. They just don't fully understand exactly what Jesus means, what that means for them to be saved. They think that Christ is a savior who will provide a way for them to be saved by His grace that requires them to contribute something to it.
Arminians fall into that category. Right. I actually think, and I, I think there's gonna be if, if there's, if the one Lutheran who listens to our show hears this is gonna be mad, but I actually think Lutheran theology kind of falls into this in a sort of negative fashion in that you have to not resist grace in order to be saved.
So I think. That is something we should grapple with is that there are people who fit into that category, but this is still a faith-filled, hope-filled confidence in the mercy of the father in this parable that he's even willing to make the journey back. Right? This isn't like right, he walks from his house down the street or from the other side of town.
He's wandering back from a far country. He, he went into a far country. He has to come back from a far country. And yes, the father greets him from afar and sees him from afar. But we're not talking about like from a far country. Like he sees him coming down the road, it, he has to travel to him, and this is a picture of.
The hope and the faith that we have to have to return to God, to throw ourselves on the mercy of Christ, trusting that he has our best interest in mind, that he has died for us, and that it is for us. Right? There's the, the knowledge of what Christ has done, and then there's the ascent to the truth of it.
And then the final part of faith is the confidence or the, the faith in trust in the fact that, that is for me as well, right? This, this is a picture of that right here. I, I don't know why we thought we were gonna get through the whole thing in one week, Jesse. We're gonna spend at least two weeks on this lost son, or at least part of the second week here.
But he, this is, this is also like a picture of faith. This is why I say this as like a systematic theology lesson on soteriology all packed into here. Because not only do we have, like what is repentance and or what does regeneration look like? It's coming to himself. What does repentance look like? Yes.
Turning from your sins and coming back. What is, what is the orde solis? Well, there's a whole, there's a whole thing in here. What is the definition of faith? Well, he knows that his father is good. That he has more than enough food for his servants. He, uh, is willing to acknowledge the truth of that, and he's willing to trust in that, in that he's willing to walk back from a far country in order to lay claim to that or to try to lay claim to it.
That's a picture of faith right there, just in all three parts. Right. It's, it's really quite amazing how, how in depth this parable goes on this stuff,
[00:49:54] Jesse Schwamb: right? Yeah. It's wild to note that as he comes to himself, he's still working. Yeah, in that far off country. So this shows again that sin is this cruel master.
He hits the bottom, he wants the animal food, but he's still unfed. And this is all the while again, he has some kind of arrangement where he is trying to work his way out of that and he sees the desperation. And so I'm with you, you know, before coming to Christ, A person really, I think must come to themselves and that really is like to say they need to have a sober self-knowledge under God, right?
Yeah. Which is, as we said before, like all this talk about, well Jesus is the answer. We better be sure what the question is. And that question is who am I before God? And this is why, of course, you have to have the law and gospel, or you have to have the the bad news before you can have the good news. And really, there's all of this bad news that's delivered here and this repentance, like you've been saying, it's not just mere regret, we know this.
It's a turning, it's a reorientation back to the father. He says, I will arise and go to my father. So yeah, also it demonstrates to me. When we do come to ourselves when there's a sober self-knowledge under God, there is a true working out of salvation that necessarily requires and results in some kind of action, right?
And that is the mortification of sin that is moving toward God again, under his power and direction of the Holy Spirit. But still there is some kind of movement on our part. And so that I think is what leads then in verse 19, as you're saying, the son and I do love this 'cause I think this goes right back to like the true hope that he has, even though it might be slightly corrupted or slightly washed out because it's not like the full, bright colors of the gospel in its entirety.
But he doesn't deny that he's the son. He just ows that he's his worthiness. And so there's like a tender conscience somewhere in there concluding like I must, we can say like, well, I must not really be truly God's own, or God would never take me as I am. And so what we have here, I think is this lesson reminder of God, the difference between identity and harmony with God.
That harmony often gets disrupted because of our own sin, but this son here recognizes that he is still the son. And so I think he, he knows his father, like you're saying. I think he hopes for the best, but what he wants to put forward is, can I just come and be a slave in your house? Which incidentally is what he will become, but under better pretenses of saying, well, you will maintain you sonship because of some kind of meritorious earning, which is where we're all tempted to go because it feels better.
It feels more safe than trusting and embracing and receiving the fathers recklessly spend thrift love, which actually is the thing that keeps us in the identity of being a son or a daughter of God. So you're right, there's so much that's happening. Underneath there that, I mean, I'm sure some Puritan has written about that in probably 50,000 words.
[00:52:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:52:36] Jesse Schwamb: But there's so much there because I'm with you. I think there is a great hope because of understanding his identity, and yet he knows the harmony is disrupted to such a degree that what he also trusts in is that worst case scenario, I would rather be a slave for my father than I would rather be a slave to sin.
And I think only until you come to that place, only when you understand that you are a slave to something, into someone, that you actually start to ask, well, how good is my master? That there is a coming to yourself, which leads to repentance and God uses in his grand providence, all kinds of past, all kinds of undertakings, all kinds of campaigns, if you will, to bring us to that place.
But he must bring us to that place before we can have true repentance.
[00:53:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:20] Tony Arsenal: And, you know, we'll, we'll get into it more, but just because I, I don't feel great about, uh. Sort of throwing out the law in some ways and not finishing with the gospel.
[00:53:30] Jesse Schwamb: Let's get to the gospel.
[00:53:31] Tony Arsenal: The, the father's correction of this is again, like this is the systematic theology correction.
The son comes and he says, or he's planning on saying, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants. When we get to the father. The father cuts him off as I'm no longer worthy to be called your son.
[00:53:49] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right.
[00:53:49] Tony Arsenal: So he doesn't, he doesn't let him get to the point of, of proposing the meritorious salvation that he thought he was going to get.
He, he lets him acknowledge, right? He, the father, lets him acknowledge that he's no longer worthy of being his son, and then essentially says, but that doesn't matter because I am worthy of being your father, and I will make you my son again. That that's what he does. He brings the robe, he brings the sandal, he brings the ring, he restores and elevates him to a position of sonship that he didn't even before he left, didn't fully have.
We'll talk about that and we'll talk about it again. He, he doesn't come home and come back to being the second son. He comes back home. And this is part of why the older son is so annoyed, is he's actually elevated to the place of the firstborn.
[00:54:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: By, by begin being given all these symbols of inheritance.
And, and this is, you know, this is the other thing, and maybe we'll talk about this more when we get to the, get to what the father gives him. But in Jewish custom and in the Jewish law, the second born son would get, would get one third of the estate. And so he comes back and one third of, I mean, who knows?
We don't know how long this trip is. We don't know how long he's been gone. We don't know how, um, how much the estate has been rebuilt. Obviously, the father is still working. It's not as though like his estate is just like stagnant and neutral, but when he comes back, a third of the estate has been wiped out by his reckless living.
When he comes back, he's
basically
given all the symbols to say
that
he's now guaranteed to have
the,
the two thirds.
[00:55:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:55:23] Tony Arsenal: So he comes back to this position,
into this estate
where the father elevates him
back to and
above his previous station
of sonship.
That is the gospel of Jesus Christ
right there.
[00:55:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:55:34] Tony Arsenal: That's double imputation baked into the pie.
Amen. It's not,
it's not just that. He goes, well.
Yeah,
you spent all this stuff, but I guess
like we can,
we can overlook that. That would be more akin to come back.
You can
start at zero,
I guess.
Zero is a servant in my house.
Go ahead and
work your way back up if you can.
Right. He comes back and the father says like, well, I've been working hard. I mean, I'm kind of like importing this into the text a little bit, but I've been working hard to rebuild the estate while you were gone. You took a third of it and I've been working hard and now I'm granting you at the, at a minimum, like I'm granting you back what you took away, what you squandered.
I'm giving it back to you. I'm restoring you, not just to neutral. I'm restoring you to this place of positive, favorable, gracious, loving communion with me, such that I'm gonna celebrate, I'm gonna give you the best things. I'm gonna kill the animal, and we're gonna have the best feasts, we're gonna have the most fun, we're gonna celebrate because you're alive.
You're back, and you're alive. Right. That's an element that I had never even thought of in this. You know, the, the father is not supposed to be pictured in this parable as omniscient, right? He has to see the son coming back. I, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm my kid's only almost four years old, but I know a lot of people who have teenagers that they go out and like, they don't come back for days at a time.
And that's a terrifying thing for a parent. Now imagine if he was off in a far country and you don't have phones, you don't have a cell phone, you can't track him on your iPhone. This, this father is, so, he probably had counted his son as dead right there. There probably wasn't another conclusion to make that when he disappears like that, this is a, this is a real return and a real resurrection in a sense, in this parable that we, we should not overlook, right?
I think we think about the, the phrasing at the end there that your brother was lost and now he's fine. He was, he was dead and now he's alive. We think of that as like poetic or metaphorical or, or, or some sort of like hyperbolic statement. But in a very real sense in this instance, this son really did come back to life for this family and he was brought back to life and restored back to life by the grace of the father in in restoring him to this place of sonship.
[00:57:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. That initial interaction, that requesting, that demanding is like a severing of the relationship. Yeah. It's basically saying, I wish to go away and to disconnect with you completely as if you were dead and I was a different person.
[00:58:00] Jesse Schwamb: And so I think a great place to end, like you said, is let's be reminded that God's mercy is not reluctant, like God's mercy comes in hot.
The embrace comes faster than the son's repair attempts. That's exactly how God treats us. He delights to bring that mercy to his children when they come before him in repentance day after day after day. Thank goodness. Praise God that his mercies are new every day. And here there are mercies for this son Yeah. By the way, before we end, I have to ask Tony, what flavor is the double imputation pie? Is that like a, is it a fruit pie or is that like a more of a cold, like custard based pie?
[00:58:42] Tony Arsenal: Well, you know, we do have a precedent on this podcast of talking about Exactly. Salvation.
[00:58:46] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.
[00:58:46] Tony Arsenal: Being the pie or the cake, right?
So the cake is salvation. I don't know. Whatever it is, it's sweet and delicious. Maybe it's like a meat pie. Maybe it's like a good, like minced meat pie with all the, like, are you
[00:58:57] Jesse Schwamb: going
[00:58:57] Tony Arsenal: savory? Good protein? Yeah. Maybe it's a savory pie. Okay. I don't know.
[00:59:00] Jesse Schwamb: Okay.
[00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: I've never had a savory pie.
[00:59:02] Jesse Schwamb: I, I like, I, you know how you say that?
I haven't either, but I would love like, what's it like steak and kidney? Isn't that like a famous.
[00:59:09] Tony Arsenal: That sounds awful.
[00:59:11] Jesse Schwamb: Well, isn't that like a, listen, do we have any brothers, sisters who are listening in in any of like the, yeah, the United Kingdom. Where are you guys at? Yeah, Daniel is a steak and kidney.
Daniel, you
[00:59:19] Tony Arsenal: tell us. Daniel Steak and kidney a real thing.
[00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we need to know.
[00:59:24] Tony Arsenal: Okay.
[00:59:24] Jesse Schwamb: Is it good? Is it delicious? Would you describe it as a pie of double imputation again, steak, kidney? I'm thinking,
[00:59:34] Tony Arsenal: I don't even
[00:59:34] Jesse Schwamb: know. Tony's not, not convinced. So look at his face is like, we need to end this episode right
[00:59:39] Tony Arsenal: now.
Yeah. Well, Jesse, I know how to end the episode. It's funny, it's funny. People, I'm glad people picked up on the little joke from last week, although it wasn't really a joke.
[00:59:49] Jesse Schwamb: No.
[00:59:50] Tony Arsenal: And I still have this recurring nightmare than we're gonna forget how to end the podcast. But last week we were trying a, a slightly different recording setup.
[00:59:57] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:59:57] Tony Arsenal: And somehow, maybe this is our AI overlords playing some sort of joke on us. Somehow, right after talking about how we were gonna blow the ending, the system magically muted Jesse's microphone. I could see his hands. They were nowhere near the keyboard. There's no possible way
[01:00:13] Jesse Schwamb: in the air.
[01:00:14] Tony Arsenal: Just absolutely.
The, the, the phone was like, or the recording software was like, not today boys. So we're on a different platform this time. Hopefully it won't do it.
[01:00:25] Jesse Schwamb: We're about to find out.
[01:00:27] Tony Arsenal: We will. When I say until next time, Jesse Honor. Everyone
[01:00:33] Jesse Schwamb: just kidding. Everybody
[01:00:34] Tony Arsenal: love the brotherhood.
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What happens when a son demands his father's life essence, squanders it in a far country, and returns expecting servanthood? In this theologically rich episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conduct a detailed exegetical study of Luke 15:11-24, revealing how the Parable of the Lost Son illustrates the core doctrines of regeneration, repentance, and double imputation. Through careful attention to the Greek text and systematic theology, the hosts demonstrate how this familiar parable captures the entire ordo salutis—the order of salvation. From the son's rebellion and spiritual death to his miraculous "coming to himself" and the father's extravagant restoration, this episode unpacks the gospel embedded in one of Scripture's most beloved stories, showing how God's mercy isn't reluctant but runs to meet repentant sinners.
The Greek words used in this parable are theologically significant. When the son asks for "the share of property," Luke uses ousia (verse 12)—a word meaning "essence" or "being," familiar to students of Trinitarian theology. Later, the text says the father divided his bios (life) between them. As Tony Arsenal notes, these aren't the ordinary Greek words for material possessions. This linguistic choice reveals that the son isn't just asking for money—he's demanding his father's very life essence while rejecting the father himself.
This captures the core nature of sin and idolatry: we want God's blessings, provisions, and gifts while spurning relationship with Him. We desire heaven's benefits without heaven's God. We want meaning, purpose, love, and satisfaction—all gifts that flow from the Father—but we want them on our terms, in our timing, apart from submission to His lordship. The parable's opening immediately confronts us with the audacity of our own hearts, which daily make the same demand: "Give me what I want, and then leave me alone." Every act of sin is fundamentally this request: the demand for God's good gifts while rejecting the Giver.
Verse 14 marks a turning point: "When he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished." Jesse Schwamb's observation is crucial: "Providence exposes what sin conceals." The famine doesn't occur everywhere—only in the far country where the son has fled. This isn't random; it's part of the parable's theological architecture.
Sin promises freedom, pleasure, and satisfaction, but these promises are lies that only hardship exposes. The son believed his father's house was restrictive and that true life existed elsewhere. Only when famine struck did the deception become clear. God often uses difficulty not as mere punishment but as mercy—a severe mercy that strips away sin's facade and reveals its bankruptcy. The son needed to hit bottom, to desire even the inedible pods fed to pigs, before he could "come to himself."
This pattern appears throughout Scripture and Christian experience. God allows us to taste the bitter fruit of our choices, not because He delights in our suffering, but because He loves us too much to leave us comfortable in our delusions. Hardship becomes the catalyst for repentance, the circumstance that makes us reconsider what we've rejected. As C.S. Lewis wrote, "Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world." The famine was God's megaphone to this lost son.
When the father sees his son returning, he doesn't wait for the full confession. He doesn't require a probationary period of servanthood. He doesn't negotiate terms. Instead, he runs—a shocking image in ancient Middle Eastern culture where patriarchs maintained dignity—and embraces his son before any words are spoken. Then come the symbols: the best robe, a ring, and sandals.
These aren't random acts of generosity; they're covenant symbols of restored sonship and, remarkably, symbols of the firstborn's inheritance. The second-born son, who was entitled to one-third of the estate (which he'd already squandered), is now given the symbols that mark him as having the firstborn's two-thirds inheritance. He's elevated beyond his original position.
This is the gospel of double imputation in parable form. In justification, God doesn't merely forgive our sins (removing our debt); He credits us with Christ's perfect righteousness (giving us Christ's inheritance). We don't return to spiritual neutrality; we're adopted as sons and daughters, made co-heirs with Christ, given "every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 1:3). The father's response to the lost son illustrates what Paul teaches in Romans 5:1-2: we have not just peace with God but access into grace and the hope of glory. We're not merely forgiven servants—we're beloved children clothed in our Elder Brother's righteousness, welcomed into the family feast.
This son felt it was owed to him. Haven't we all done this to God? We take what we've been given by God, our very life, our very essence, we owe him everything, and we squander that on sinful, reckless living. That's just a slap in the face in the best way right out of the gate here. - Tony Arsenal
He comes to himself. There's nothing in the story that should prompt him to want to go back to his home, to think that his father could or would do anything about it, except that he comes to himself. He just comes to the realization that his father is a good man and is wise and has resources. That is a picture of regeneration. - Tony Arsenal
God's mercy is not reluctant. God's mercy comes in hot. The embrace comes faster than the son's repair attempts. That's exactly how God treats us. He delights to bring that mercy to his children when they come before him in repentance day after day after day. Thank goodness his mercies are new every day. - Jesse Schwamb
[00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: When he comes back, he's given all the symbols to say he's now guaranteed to have the two thirds.
So he comes back to this position, where the father elevates him above his previous station That is the gospel of Jesus Christ
that's double imputation baked into the pie. It's not just that. He goes, well. you spent all this stuff, but I guess we can overlook that. That would be more akin to come back. start at zero, Zero is a servant in my house. work your way back up if you can.
[00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 477 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:51] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.
[00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.
[00:00:56] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, it struck me that this whole thing we've been doing all this parable talk is really after the manner of God's words.
And one of the things I've really grown to appreciate is how God speaks to the condition of those whom he addresses. He considers our ability, our capacity as his hearers to process what he's saying, and that leads into these amazing parables that we've been talking about. He doesn't speak as he is able to speak.
So to speak, but I didn't mean that to happen. But as we were able to hear, and that means he spoke in these lovely parables so that we might better understand him. And today we're gonna get into some of the drama of the best, like the crown jewel as we've been saying, of maybe all the parables. The Parable of the Lost Son.
We spoke a little bit about it in the last episode. Definitely want to hit that up because it's setting you up for this one, which is the definitive episode. But now we're gonna talk about this first, this younger lost son. Get into some of all of these like juicy details about what takes place, and really, again, see if we can find the heart of God.
Spoiler. We can and we'll,
[00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: yeah,
[00:02:04] Jesse Schwamb: but before we do both of those things, it's of course always time at this moment to do a little affirming with or denying against. Of course, if you haven't heard us before, that's where we take a moment to say, is there something that we think is undervalued that we wanna bring forward that we'd recommend or think is awesome?
Or conversely, is there something that's overvalued that's just, we're over it. The vibe is done. We're gonna deny against that. So I say to you, as I often do, Tony, are you affirming with or deny against?
[00:02:31] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming tonight. Um, I don't know how much the audience realizes of a giant ridiculous nerd I am, but we're about to go to entirely new giant nerd depths.
[00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: All right. I
[00:02:43] Tony Arsenal: think,
[00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: let's hear it.
[00:02:44] Tony Arsenal: So, um, I was a huge fan of Stranger Things. Some, there's some issues with the show, and I understand why some people might not, um, might not feel great about watching it. You know, I think it falls within Christian liberty. But one of the main themes of the show, this is not a spoiler, you learn about this in episode one, is the whole game.
The whole show frames itself around Dungeons and Dragons, right? It's kind of like a storytelling device within the show that the kids play, Dungeons and Dragons, and everything that happens in the Dungeons and Dragons game that they're playing, sort of like, um, foreshadows what's actually gonna happen in the show.
Which funny if, you know Dungeons and Dragons lore, you kind of learn the entire plot of the story like ahead of time. Um, but so I, stranger Things just finished up and I've kind of been like itching to get into Dungeons and Dragons. I used to play a little bit of tabletop when I was in high school, in early college and um, I just really like the idea of sort of this collaborative storytelling game.
Um, whether it's Dungeon Dragons or one of the other systems, um, Dungeons and Dragons is the most popular. It's the most well published. It's the most well established and it's probably the easiest to find a group to play with. Although it is very hard to find a group to play with, especially, uh, kind of out in the middle of nowhere where I live.
So this is where the ultra super nerdy part comes in.
[00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, here we
[00:04:03] Tony Arsenal: go. I have been painstakingly over the last week teaching Google Gemini. To be a dungeon master for me. So I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons more or less by myself with, uh, with Google Gemini, and I'm just having a lot of fun with it.
Um, you can get a free copy of the rules online if you, I think it's DND, the letter NDND beyond.com. They have a full suite of like tools to create your character. Access to a basic set of the core rules. Um, you can spend a lot of money on Dungeons and Dragons, uh, and if you want to like really get into it, the books are basically textbooks.
Like you're buying $300 or 300 page, $300, 300 page textbooks, um, that are not all that differently costs than like college textbooks. You'll buy a 300 page Dungeon master guide that's like $50 if you want a paper copy. So, but you can get into it for free. You can get the free rolls online, you can use their dungeon, the d and d Beyond app and do all your dice rolls for free.
Um, you, you can get a free dice roller online if you don't want to do their, their app. Um, but it's just a lot of fun. I've just been having a lot of fun and I found that the, I mean. When you play a couple sessions with it, you see that the, the um, the A IDM that I've created, like it follows the same story beats 'cause it's only got so much to work with in its language model.
Um, but I'm finding ways to sort of like break it out of that model by forcing it to refer to certain websites that are like Dungeons and Dragons lore websites and things like build your, build your campaign from this repository of Dungeons and Dragons stuff. So. I think you could do this with just about any sort of narrative storytelling game like this, whether you're playing a different system or d and d Pathfinders.
I mean, there's all sorts of different versions of it, but it's just been a lot of fun to see, see it going. I'm trying to get a group together. 'cause I think I would, I would probably rather play Dungeons and Dragons with people, um, and rather do it in person. But it's hard to do up here. It's hard to get a, get a group going.
So that's my super nerdy affirmation. I'm not just affirming Dungeons and Dragons, which would already be super nerdy. I'm affirming playing it by myself on my phone, on the bus with Google Gemini, AI acting like I'm not. Just this weird antisocial lunatic. So I'm having a lot of fun with it.
[00:06:20] Jesse Schwamb: So there are so many levels of inception there.
Yeah. Like the inception and everything you just said. I love it.
[00:06:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, what I'm learning is, um, you can give an, and, and this is something I didn't realize, what ai, I guess I probably should have, you know, it's not like an infinite thing. Um, you can give an AI instructions and if your chat gets long enough, it actually isn't referring back to the very beginning of the chat most of the time.
Right. There's a, there's like a win context window of about 30 responses. So like if you tell the AI, don't roll the dice for me, like, let me roll dices that are related to my actions, eventually it will forget that. So part of what I've been doing is basically building, I'm using Google Gemini when the AI does something I don't want it to do, I say, you just did something I don't want it to do.
Gimme a diagnostic report of why you did that. It will explain to me why it did what it did. Right. Why it didn't observe the rules. And then I'm feeding that into another. Prompt that is helping me generate better prompts that it refers back to. So it's kind of this weird iterative, um, yeah, I, I don't, I'm like, I maybe I'm gonna create the singularity.
I'm not sure. Maybe this is gonna be possible. We should sit over the edge. It's gonna, it's gonna learn how to cast magic spells and it's gonna fire bolt us in the face or something like that. Right. But, uh, again, high risk. I, I, for one, welcome our AO AI dungeon masters. So check it out. You should try it.
If you could do this with chat GPT, you could do it with any ai. Um, it, it, it is going to get a little, I have the benefit because I have a Google Workspace account. I have access to Google Pro or the Gemini Pro, which is a better model for this kind of thing. But you could do this with, with chat GPT or something like that.
And it's gonna be more or less the same experience, I think. But I'm having a, I'm having a ton of fun with it. Um. Again, I, I, there's something about just this, Dungeons and Dragons at its core is a, it's like a, an exercise in joint storytelling, which is really fascinating and interesting to me. Um, and that's what most tabletop RPGs are like.
I suppose you get into something like War Hammer and it's a little bit more like a board. It's a mixture of that plus a board game. But Dungeons and Dragons, the DM is creating the, I mean, not the entire world, but is creating the narrative. And then you as a player are an actor within that narrative. And then there's a certain element of chance that dice rolls play.
But for the most part, um, you're driving the story along. You're telling the story together. So it's, it's pretty interesting. I've also been watching live recordings of Dungeons and Dragon Sessions on YouTube. Oh,
[00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: wow.
[00:08:51] Tony Arsenal: Like, there's a, there's a channel called Critical Role. Like these sessions are like three and a half hours long.
So, wow. I just kinda have 'em on in the background when I'm, when I'm, uh, working or if I'm, you know, doing something else. Um, but it's really interesting stuff. It's, it's pretty cool. I think it's fun. I'm a super nerd. I'm, I'm no shame in that. Um, I'm just really enjoying it.
[00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, nerdery is great. That's like part of the zeitgeist now.
Listen to culture. It's cool to be a nerd. I don't know much about d and d. I've heard a lot about this idea of this community that forms around. Yeah. The story, correct me if I'm wrong, can't these things go on for like years, decades?
[00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, yeah. Like, you can do there. There, some of this has made its way into the official rule books, but basically you could do what's called a one shot, which is like a self-contained story.
Usually a single session, you know, like you get a Dungeon master, game master, whichever you wanna call the person. Three to four, maybe five characters, player characters. And one session is usually about two hours long. So it's not like you sit down for 20 minutes, 30 minutes at a time and play this right.
And you could do a one shot, which is a story that's designed to, to live all within that two hour session. Um, some people will do it where there isn't really any planned like, outcome of the story. The, the DM just kind of makes up things to do as they go. And then you can have campaigns, which is like, sometimes it's like a series of one shots, but more, it is more like a long term serialized period, you know, serialized campaign where you're doing many, um, many, many kinds of, uh, things all in one driving to like a big epic goal or battle at the end, right?
Um, some groups stay together for a really long time and they might do multiple campaigns, so there's a lot to it. Game's been going on for like 50, 60, 70 years, something like that. I don't remember exactly when it started, but
[00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: yeah.
[00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, it's an old game. It's kinda like the doctor who of of poor games and it's like the original tabletop role playing game, I think.
[00:10:47] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Again, there's something really appealing to me about not just that cooperative storytelling, but cooperative gameplay. Everybody's kind of in it together for the most part. Yeah. Those conquest, as I understand them, are joint in nature. You build solidarity, but if you're meeting with people and having fun together and telling stories and interacting with one another, there's a lot of good that comes out of that stuff there.
A lot of lovely common grace in those kind of building, those long-term interactions, relationships, entertainment built on being together and having good, clean, fun together.
[00:11:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, it's, um. It's an interesting exercise. It's it, in some ways it's very much like improv. Like you, you think of like an improv comedy like show I've been to somewhere.
Like, you know, you go to the show and it's an improv troupe, but they're like calling people from the crowd up and asking them for like different scenarios they might do. It's kind of like that in that like the GM can plan a whole, can plan a whole thing. But if I as a player character, um. And I've done this to the virtual one just to see what it does, and it's done some interesting things.
One of the campaigns I was playing, I had rescued a merchant from some giant spiders and I was helping, like, I was helping like navigate them through the woods to the next town. And we kept on getting attacked and just outta nowhere. I was like, what if I sort of act as though I'm suspicious of this merchant now because why are we getting attacked all the time?
And so I, I typed in sort of like a little. A mini role play of me accusing this guy. And it was something like, Randall, we get, we're getting attacked a lot for a simple merchant, Randall merchant. What happens if I cast a tech magic? What am I gonna find? And he's like, I don't know what I'm gonna find. I know I don't know anything.
And then I cast a tech magic and it shifted. I mean, I don't know where the campaign was gonna go before that, but it shifted the whole thing now where the person who gave him the package he was carrying had betrayed him. It was, so that happens in real life too in these games, real life in these games.
That happens in real, in-person sessions too, where a player or a group of players may just decide instead of talking to the contact person that is supposed to give them the clue to find the dungeon they're supposed to go to, instead they ambush them and murder them in gold blood. And now the, the dungeon master has to figure out, how do I get them back to this dungeon when this is the only person that was supposed to know where it is?
So it, it does end up really stretching your thinking skills and sort of your improvisational skills. There's an element of, um, you know, like chance with the dice, um, I guess like the dice falls in the lot, but the lot is in the handle. Or like, obviously that's all ordained as well too, but there is this element of chance where even the DM doesn't get to determine everything.
Um, if, if I say I want to, I want to try to sneak into this room, but I'm a giant barbarian who has, you know, is wearing like chain mail, there's still a chance I could do it, but the dice roll determines that. It's not like the, the GM just says you can't do that. Um, so it's, it's a, I, I like it. I'm, I'm really looking forward to trying to, getting into it.
It is hard to start a group and to get going and, um, there's a part of me that's a little bit. Gun shy of maybe like getting too invested with a group of non-Christians for something like this. 'cause it can get a little weird sometimes. But I think that, I think that'll work out. It'll be fun. I know there's actually some people in our telegram chat.
Bing, bing, bing segue. There we go. There's some people in our telegram chat actually, that we're already planning to do a campaign. Um, so we might even do like a virtual reform brotherhood, Dungeons and Dragons group. So that might be a new sub channel in the telegram at some point.
[00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. You could jump right in.
Go to t.me back slash reform brotherhood.
[00:14:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming since I just spent the last 15 minutes gushing about my nerdy hobby?
[00:14:23] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, no, that was great. Can I, can I just say two things? One is, so you're basically saying it's a bit like, like a troll shows up and everybody's like, yes. And yeah.
So I love that idea. Second thing, which is follow up question, very brief. What kind of merchant was Randall.
[00:14:39] Tony Arsenal: Uh, he was a spice trader actually.
[00:14:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I don't trust that.
[00:14:43] Tony Arsenal: And, and silk, silk and spices.
[00:14:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's double, that's too strict.
[00:14:47] Tony Arsenal: He was actually good guy in the, in the story that developed out of this campaign.
He actually became part of my family and like, like, like got adopted into the family because he lost everything on his own. Randy we're
[00:15:00] Jesse Schwamb: talking about Randy.
[00:15:01] Tony Arsenal: Randy Randall with one L. Yeah. The AI was very specific about
that.
[00:15:05] Jesse Schwamb: There's, there's nothing about this guy I trust. I, is this still ongoing? Because I think he's just trying to make his way deeper in,
[00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: uh, no, no.
It, I'll, I'll wait for next week to tell you how much, even more nerdy this thing gets. But there's a whole thing that ha there was a whole thing out of this That's a tease. Tease. There was a, there was a horse and the horse died and there was lots of tears and there was a wedding and a baby. It was, it's all sorts of stuff going on in this campaign.
[00:15:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I'm sure. Randy was somewhere near that horse when it happened. Right?
[00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: It was his horse.
[00:15:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly. That's
[00:15:35] Tony Arsenal: exactly, he didn't, he didn't kill the horse. He had no power to knock down the bridge The horse was standing on.
[00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, next week, I'm pretty sure that's what we're gonna learn is that it was all him.
[00:15:45] Tony Arsenal: Alright, Jesse, save us from this. Save us from this, please. Uh,
[00:15:49] Jesse Schwamb: no.
What
[00:15:50] Tony Arsenal: you affirming, this is
[00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: great.
[00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: It's possible that there is a crossover between yours and mine if we consider. That the church is like playing a d and d game in the dungeon Masters Christ, and the campaigns, the gospel. So I was thinking maybe is it possible, uh, maybe this is just the, the theology of the cross, but that sometimes, like you need the denial to get to the affirmation.
Have we talked about that kind of truth? Yeah,
[00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: yeah,
[00:16:15] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. So here's a little bit of that. I'll be very, very brief and I'm using this not as like just one thing that happened today, but what I know is for sure happening all over the world. And I mean that very literally, not just figuratively when it comes to the body of Christ, the local church.
So it snowed here overnight. This was, this is the Lord's Day. We're hanging out in the Lord's Day, which is always a beautiful day to talk about God. And overnight it snowed. The snow stopped relatively late in the morning around the time that everybody would be saying, Hey, it's time to go and worship the Lord.
So for those in my area, I got up, we did the whole clearing off the Kai thing. I went to church and I was there a little bit early for a practice for music. And when I pulled in, there weren't many there yet, but the whole parking lot unplowed. So there's like three inches of snow, unplowed parking lot. So I guess the denial is like the plow people decided like, not this time I, I don't think so.
They understood they were contracted with the church, but my understanding is that when one of the deacons called, they were like, Ooh, yeah, we're like 35 minutes away right now, so that's gonna be a problem. So when I pulled in, here's what I was. Like surprise to find, but in a totally unexpected way, even though I understand what a surprise is.
And that is that, uh, that first the elders and the deacons, everybody was just decided we're going to shovel an entire parking lot. And at some point big, I was a little bit early there, but at some point then this massive text change just started with everybody, which was, Hey, when you come to church, bring your shovel.
And I, I will tell you like when I got out of the car. I was so like somebody was immediately running to clear a path with me. One of those like snow pushers, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like one, those beastly kind of like blade things.
[00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: Those things are, those things are the best.
[00:17:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You just run. And so you have never met a group of people that was more happy to shovel an entire large asphalt area, which normally shouldn't even be required.
And. It just struck me, even in hindsight now thinking about it, it was this lovely confluence of people serving each other and serving God. It was as if they got up that morning and said, do you know what would be the best thing in the world for me to do is to shovel. And so everybody was coming out.
Everybody was shoveling it. It was to protect everyone and to allow one into elaborate, one access. It was just incredible. And so I started this because the affirmation is, I know this happens in, in all of our churches, every God fearing God, loving God serving church, something like this is happening, I think on almost every Lord's day or maybe every day of the week in various capacities.
And I just think this is God's people coming together because everybody, I think when we sat down for the message was exhausted, but. But there was so much joy in doing this. I think what you normally would find to be a mundane and annoying task, and the fact that it wasn't just, it was redeemed as if like we, we found a greater purpose in it.
But that's, everyone saw this as a way to love each other and to love God, and it became unexpected worship in the parking lot. That's really what it was, and it was fantastic. I really almost hope that we just get rid of the plow company and just do it this way from now on. Yeah, so I'm affirming, recognize people, recognize brothers and sisters that your, your church is doing this stuff all the time and, and be a part of it.
Jump in with the kinda stuff because I love how it brings forward the gospel.
[00:19:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great story. It's a great, uh, a great example of the body of Christ being, what the body of Christ is and just pulling together to get it done. Um, which, you know, we do on a spiritual level, I think, more often than a physical level these days.
Right, right. But, um, that's great. I'm sitting here going three inches of snow. I would've just pulled into the lot and then pulled out of the lot. But New Hampshire, it hits different in New Hampshire. Like we all d have snow tires and four wheel drive.
[00:20:02] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's enough snow where it was like pretty wet and heavy that it, if, you know, you pack that stuff down, it gets slick.
You can't see the people, like you can't have your elderly people just flying in, coming in hot and then trying to get outta the vehicle, like making their way into church.
[00:20:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:20:15] Jesse Schwamb: So there was, there was a lot more of that. But I think again, you would, one of the options would've been like, Hey, why don't we shovel out some sp spaces for the, for those who need it, for, you know, those who need to have access in a way that's a little bit less encumbered.
Oh, no, no. These people are like, I see your challenge and I am going to shovel the entire parking lots.
[00:20:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It used to happen once in a while, uh, at the last church, uh, at, um, your dad's church. We would, where the plow would just not come on a Sunday morning or, or more often than not. Um, you know, what happens a lot of times is the plows don't want to come more than once.
Right. If they don't have to. Or sometimes they won't come if they think it's gonna melt because they don't want to deal with, uh, with like customers who are mad that you plowed and that it all melts. But either way, once in a while. The plow wouldn't come or it wouldn't come in time. And what we would do is instead of trying to shovel an entire driveway thing, we would just went, the first couple people who would get there, the young guys in the church, there was only a couple of us, but the younger guys in the church would just, we would just be making trips, helping people into the, yeah.
Helping people into the building. So, um, it was a pretty, you know, it was a small church, so it was like six trips and we'd have everybody in, but um, we just kind of, that was the way we pulled together. Um, yeah, that's a great, it's a great story. I love, I love stuff like that. Yeah, me too. Whether it's, whether it's, you know, plowing a, a parking lot with shovels instead of a plow, or it's just watching, um, watching the tables and the chairs from the fellowship, you know, all just like disappear because everybody's just, uh, picks up after themselves and cleans and stuff.
That's, that's like the most concrete example of the body of Christ doing what the body of Christ does. Um, it's always nice, you know, we always hear jokes about like, who can carry the most, the most chairs,
[00:22:04] Jesse Schwamb: most
[00:22:04] Tony Arsenal: chairs. Uh, I think it's true. Like a lot of times I think like I could do like seven or eight sometimes.
[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, you, that's, so, one more thing I wanna say. I, I wanted to tell you this privately, Tony, 'cause it just cracked me up 'cause I, you'll appreciate this. But now I'm realizing I think the brothers and sisters who listened to us talk for any length of time and in the context of this conversation, but the church will appreciate this too.
On my way out, I, I happened because I was there early and the snow was crazy. I parked way further out, way on the edge of the lot to just allow for greater access because of all the shoveling that was happening. And by the way, I really hope there were a ton of visitors this morning because they were like, wow, this, this church is wild.
They love to shovel their own lot and they're the happiest people doing it. Some sweaty person just ushered me in while they were casting snow. Like,
[00:22:47] Tony Arsenal: is this some new version of snake handling? You shovel your own lot and your impervious to back injuries.
[00:22:53] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. So I was walking out and as I walked past, uh, there was a, uh, two young gentlemen who were congregating by this very large lifted pickup truck, which I don't have much experience with, but it looked super cool and it was started, it was warming up, and they were just like casually, like in the way that only like people with large beards wearing flannel and Carhartt kind of do, like casually leaning against the truck, talking in a way that you're like, wow, these guys are rugged.
And they sound, they're super cool, and they're probably like in their twenties. And all I hear as I pass by is one guy going, yeah, well, I mean that's, I was, I said to them too, but I said, listen, I'd rather go to a church with God-fearing women than anywhere else.
[00:23:36] Tony Arsenal: Nice.
[00:23:37] Jesse Schwamb: I was just like, yep. On the prowl and I love it.
And they're not wrong. This is the place to be.
[00:23:42] Tony Arsenal: It is.
[00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This is the place to be. Yeah. So all kinds of, all kinds of good things I think going on in that in the house of the Lord and where wherever you're at, I would say be happy and be joyful and look for those things and participate in, like you said, whether it's physical or not, but as soon as you said like the, our young men, our youth somehow have this competition of when we need to like pack up the sanctuary.
How many chairs can I take at one time? Yeah. It's like the classic and it just happens. Nobody says like, okay, everybody line up. We're about to embark on the competition now. Like the strong man usher competition. It's just like, it just happens and
[00:24:17] Tony Arsenal: it's
[00:24:17] Jesse Schwamb: incredible.
[00:24:18] Tony Arsenal: I mean, peacocks fan out their tail feathers.
Young Christian guys fan out. All of the table chairs, chairs they can carry. It's uh, it's a real phenomena. So I feel like if you watch after a men's gathering, everybody is like carrying one chair at a time because they don't wanna hurt their backs and their arms. Oh, that's
[00:24:36] Jesse Schwamb: true. That's
[00:24:37] Tony Arsenal: what I do. Yeah.
But it's when the women are around, that's when you see guys carrying like 19 chairs. Yeah. Putting themselves in the hospital.
[00:24:42] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I, listen, it comes for all of us. Like I, you know, I'm certainly not young anymore by almost any definition, but even when I'm in the mix, I'm like, oh, I see you guys.
You wanna play this game? Mm-hmm. Let's do this. And then, you know, I'm stacking chairs until I hurt myself. So it's great. That's, that is what we do for each other. It's
[00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: just, I hurt my neck getting outta bed the other day. So it happens. It's real.
[00:25:05] Jesse Schwamb: The struggle. Yeah, the struggle is real.
[00:25:07] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of struggle, speaking of family issues, speaking of all kinds of drama, let's get into Luke 15 and let me read just, I would say the first part of this parable, which as we've agreed to talk about, if we can even get this far, it's just the younger son.
[00:25:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:25:25] Jesse Schwamb: And again, don't worry, we're gonna get to all of it, but let me read beginning in, uh, verse 11 here. This is Luke chapter 15. Come follow along as you will accept if you're operating heavy machinery. And Jesus said, A man had two sons and the younger of them said to his father, father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.
So he divided his wealth between them. And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country. And there he squandered his estate living recklessly. Now, when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country and it began to be impoverished.
So he went and hired himself to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. So he went and as he was desiring to be fed with the pods that the swine were eating because no one was giving anything to him. But when he came to himself, he said, how many of my father's men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger.
I'll rise up and go to my father, and I'll say to him, father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired men. So he rose up, came to his father, but while he was still a long way off. His father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him.
And the son said to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his slaves, quickly, bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet and bring the fat in calf and slaughter it and let us celebrate.
For the son of mine was dead and has come to life again. He was lost and he has been found and they began to celebrate.
[00:27:09] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a, um, such a, I don't know, like pivotal seminal parable in the Ministry of Christ. Um, it's one of those parables and we, we mentioned this briefly last week that even most.
It, it hasn't passed out of the cultural zeitgeist yet. A lot of biblical teaching has, I mean, a lot, I think a lot of things that used to be common knowledge where, where you could make a reference to something in the Bible and people would just get it. Um, even if they weren't Christian or weren't believers, they would still know what you were talking about.
There's a lot of things in the Bible that have passed out of that cultural memory. The, the parable of the prodigal son, lost son, however you wanna phrase it, um, that's not one of them. Right. So I think it's really important for us, um, and especially since it is such a beautiful picture of the gospel and it has so many different theological touch points, it's really incumbent on us to spend time thinking about this because I would be willing to bet that if you weave.
Elements of this parable into your conversations with nonbelievers that you are praying for and, and, you know, witnessing to and sharing the gospel with, if you weave this in there, you're gonna help like plant some seeds that when it comes time to try to harvest, are gonna pay dividends. Right. So I think it's a really, it's a really great thing that we're gonna be able to spend, you know, a couple weeks really just digging into this.
[00:28:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and to define the beginning, maybe from the end, just slightly here, I like what you said about this cultural acknowledgement of this. I think one of the correctives we can provide, which is clear in the story, is in the general cultural sense. We speak of this prodigal as something that just returns comes back, was lost, but now is found.
And often maybe there is this component of, in the familial relationship, it's as if they've been restored. Here we're gonna of course find that this coming to one senses is in fact the work of God. That there is, again, a little bit of denial that has to bring forward the affirmation here that is the return.
And so again, from the beginning here, we're just talking about the younger son. We have more than youthful ambition.
[00:29:19] Jesse Schwamb: This heart of, give me the stuff now, like so many have said before, is really to say. Give me the gifts and not you, which is, I think, a common fault of all Christians. We think, for instance of heaven, and we think of all the blessings that come with it, but not necessarily of the joy of just being with our savior, being with Christ.
And I think there's something here right from the beginning, there's a little bit of this betrayal in showing idolatry, the ugliness of treating God's gifts as if there's something owed. And then this idea that of course. He receives these things and imme more or less immediately sometime after he goes and takes these things and squanderers them.
And sin and idolatry, I think tends to accelerate in this way. The distance from the father becomes distance from wisdom. We are pulled away from that, which is good. The father here being in his presence and being under his care and his wisdom and in his fear of influence and concern, desiring then to say, I don't want you just give me the gifts that you allegedly owe me.
And then you see how quickly like sin does everything you, we always say like, sin always costs more than you want to pay. And it always takes you further than you want to go. And that's exactly what we see here. Like encapsulated in an actual story of relationship and distance.
[00:30:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think, um.
It's interesting to me.
[00:30:39] Tony Arsenal: You know, I, I, I'm a big fan of saying you don't need to study Greek to understand your Bible, but I'm also a big fan of saying understanding a little bit of Greek is really helpful. And one of the things that I think is really intriguing, and I haven't quite parsed out exactly what I think this means, but the word property in this parable, it actually is two different Greek words that is translated as property, at least in the ESV.
And neither one of them really fit. What our normal understanding of property would be. And there are Greek words that refer to like all of your material possessions, but it says, father, give me the share of property. And he uses the word usia, which those of us who have heard anything about the trinity, which is all of us, um, know that that word means something about existence.
It's the core essence of a person. So it says, father, give me the share of usia that is coming to me. And then it says, and he divided his bias, his, his life between them. Then it says, not many days later, the younger son gathered all that he had took a journey into the far country. There he squandered his usia again.
So this, this parable, Christ is not using the ordinary words to refer to material, uh, material accumulation and property like. I think probably, you know, Christ isn't like randomly using these words. So there probably is an element that these were somehow figuratively used of one's life possessions. But the fact that he's using them in these particular ways, I think is significant.
[00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: And so the, the, the younger son here, and I don't even like calling this the prodigal sun parable because the word prodigal doesn't like the equivalent word in Greek doesn't appear in this passage. And prodigal doesn't mean like the lost in returned, like prodigal is a word that means like the one who spends lavishly, right?
So we call him the prodigal son because he went and he squandered all of his stuff and he spent all of his money. So it doesn't even really describe the main feature or the main point of why this, this parable is here. It's just sort of like a random adjective that gets attached to it. But all of that aside, um.
This parable starts off not just about wasting our property, like wasting our things, but it's a parable that even within the very embedded language of the parable itself is talking about squandering our very life, our very essence, our very existence is squandered and wasted as we depart from the Father.
Right? And this is so like, um, it's almost so on the head, on the on the nose that it's almost a little like, really Jesus. Like this is, this is so like, slap you in the face kind of stuff. This is right outta like Romans, uh, Romans one, like they did not give thanks to God. They did not show gratitude to God or acknowledge him as God.
This is what's happening in this parable. The son doesn't go to his father and say, father, I love you. I'm so happy to stay with you. I'm so happy to be here. He, he basically says like. Give me your very life essence, and I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go spend it on prostitutes. I'm gonna go waste your life, father, I'm gonna waste your life, your existence, your bias.
I'm gonna go take that and I'm gonna squander it on reckless living. And I guess we don't know for sure. He, it doesn't say he spends it on prostitutes. That's something his brother says later and assumes he did. So I, I don't know that we do that. But either way, I'm gonna take what's yours, your very life, your very essence.
And also that my life, my essence, the gift you've given me as my father, you've given me my life. In addition now to your life or a portion of your life. And I'm gonna go squander that on reckless living, right? Like, how much of a picture of sin is that, that we, we take what we've been given by God, our very life, our very essence, we owe him everything, and we squander that on sinful, reckless living.
That that's just a slap in the face in the best way right out of the gate here.
[00:34:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that, that's a great point because it's, it would be one thing to rebel over disobedience, another thing to use the very life essence that you've been given for destructive, self-destructive purposes. And then to use that very energy, which is not yours to begin with, but has been imbued in yours, external, all of these things.
And then to use that very thing as the force of your rebellion. So it's double insult all the way around. I'm with you in the use of Greek there. Thank you. Locus Bio software. Not a sponsor of the podcast, but could be. And I think that's why sometimes in translations you get the word like a state because it's like the closest thing we can have to understanding that it's property earned through someone's life more or less.
Yeah. And then is passed down, but as representative, not just of like, here's like 20 bucks of cash, but something that I spent all of me trying to earn and. And to your point, also emphasizing in the same way that this son felt it was owed him. So it's like really bad all around and I think we would really be doing ourselves a disservice if we didn't think that there's like a little bit of Paul washer saying in this, like I'm talking about you though.
So like just be like, look at how disrespectful the sun is. Yeah. Haven't we all done this? To God and bringing up the idea of prodigal being, so that, that is like the amazing juxtaposition, isn't it? Like Prodigal is, is spent recklessly, parsimonious would be like to, to save recklessly, so to speak. And then you have the love the father demonstrates coming against all of that in the same way with like a totally different kind of force.
So.
[00:36:02] Jesse Schwamb: What I find interesting, and I think this is like set up in exactly what you said, is that when you get to verse 14 and this famine comes, it's showing us, I think that like providence exposes what Sin conceals.
[00:36:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:36:16] Jesse Schwamb: And want arrives. Not just because like the money ran out, but because again, like these idols, what he's replaced the father with, they don't satisfy.
And repentance then often begins when God shows the emptiness of light apart life apart from him. That's like the affirmation being born out of the denial. And so I think that this also is evolving for us, this idea that God is going to use hardship, not as mere punishment, but as mercy that wakes us up and that the son here is being woken up, but not, of course, it's not as if he goes into the land, like you said, starts to spend, is like, whoa, hold on a second.
This seems like a bad idea. It's not until all of that sin ever, like the worship of false things collapses under its own weight before it, which is like the precursor of the antecedent, I think, to this grand repentance or this waking up.
[00:37:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I also think it's, um.
[00:37:08] Tony Arsenal: A feature of this that I haven't reflected on too deeply, but is, is worth thinking about is the famine that's described here only occurs in this far country that he's in.
[00:37:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:37:17] Tony Arsenal: Right. So even that's right. And this is like a multitude of foolish decisions. This is compounding foolish decisions that don't, don't make any sense. Like they don't really actually make any sense. Um. There's not a logic to this, this lost son's decision making. He takes the property. Okay. I guess maybe like you could be anxious to get your inheritance, but then like he takes it to a far country.
Like there's no reason for him to do that. If at any point through this sort of insane process he had stopped short, he would not have been in the situation he was in. Yes. And that, I love that phrase, that providence, you know, reveals, I don't know exactly how you said it, but like providence reveals what our sin can bring to us.
Like he first see sins against his father by sort of like demanding, demanding his inheritance early. Then he takes it and he leaves his country for no reason. He goes to this far country, then he spends everything and then the famine arises. Right? And the famine arises in this other country.
[00:38:13] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:38:13] Tony Arsenal: And that's, I think that is still again, like a picture of sin.
Like we. We don't just, we don't just take what the father has and, and like spend it like that would be bad enough if we weren't grateful for what we have and what we've been given, and we just waste it. But on top of that, now we also have taken ourselves to a far country. Like we've gone away from the good, the good land of the Lord, as those who are not regenerate.
We've gone away from the, the Lord into this far country. And it's not until we start to have this famine that we recognize what we've done. And again, this is, this is where I think we get a picture. There's so many theological, like points in this parable particular that it almost feels a little bit like a, like a.
Parable that's intended to teach some systematic theology about for sure, the oral salus, which I think there's probably a lot of like biblical theology people that are ready to just crawl through the screen and strangle me for saying that. But this is such a glorious picture of, of regeneration too.
[00:39:16] Tony Arsenal: Like he comes to himself, there's nothing, there's nothing in the story that's like, oh, and the servant that he was, the other servant he was talking to mentioned that the famine, like there's nothing here that should prompt him to want to go back to his home, to think that his father could or would do anything about it, except that he comes to himself.
He just comes to the realization that his father is a good man and is wise and has resources, and has takes care of his, of his servants on top of how he takes care of his sons. That is a picture of regeneration. There's no, yeah. Logical, like I'm thinking my way into it, he just one day realizes how much, how many of my father's servants have more than enough bread.
Right. But I'm perishing here in this, this foolish other country with nothing. Right. I can't even, and the, the pods that the pigs ate, we can even, we can get into the pods a little bit here, but like. He wants to eat the pods. The pods that he's giving the pigs are not something that's even edible to humans.
He's that destitute, that he's willing to eat these pods that are like, this is the leftover stuff that you throw to the pigs because no, no, nobody and nothing else can actually eat it. And that's the state he's in at the very bottom, in the very end of himself where he realizes my father is good and he loves me, and even if I can never be his son again, surely he'll take care of me.
I mentioned it last week, like he wasn't going back thinking that this was gonna be a failing proposition. He went back because he knew or he, he was confident that his father was going to be able to take care of him and would accept him back. Right. Otherwise, what would be the point of going back? It wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, um, a mission he expected to fail at.
He expected there to be a positive outcome or he wouldn't have done it. Like, it wouldn't make any sense to try that if there wasn't the hope of some sort of realistic option.
[00:41:09] Jesse Schwamb: And I think his confidence in that option, as you were saying, is in this way where he's constructed a transaction. Yeah. That he's gonna go back and say, if you'll just take me out as a slave, I know you have slaves, I will work for you.
Right. Therefore, I feel confident that you'll accept me under those terms because I'll humble myself. And why would you not want to remunerate? Me for the work that I put forward. So you're right, like it's, it's strange that he basically comes to this, I think, sense that slavery exists in his life and who would he rather be the slave of,
[00:41:38] Tony Arsenal: right?
[00:41:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so he says, listen, I'm gonna come to the father and give him this offer. And I'm very confident that given that offer and his behavior, what I know about how he treats his other slaves, that he will hire me back because there's work to do. And therefore, as a result of the work I put forward, he will take care of me.
How much of like contemporary theology is being preached in that very way right now?
[00:41:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:41:59] Jesse Schwamb: And that's really like why the minimum wages of sin is all of this stuff. It's death. It's the consequences that we're speaking about here. By the way, the idea about famine is really interesting. I hadn't thought about that.
It is interesting, again, that sin casts him out into this foreign place where the famine occurs. And that famine is the beginning of his realization of the true destruction, really how far he's devolved and degraded in his person and in his relationships and in his current states. And then of course, the Bible is replete with references and God moving through famine.
And whereas in Genesis, we have a local famine, essentially casting Joseph brothers into a foreign land to be freed and to be saved.
[00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: Right.
[00:42:40] Jesse Schwamb: We have the exact opposite, which is really kind of interesting. Yeah. So we probably should talk about, you know, verse 15 and the, and the pig stuff. I mean, I think the obvious statement here is that.
It would be scandalous, like a Jewish hero would certainly feel the shame of the pigs. They represent UNC cleanliness and social humiliation. I'm interested again, in, in this idea, like you've started us on that the freedom that this younger brother sought for becomes slavery. It's kind of bondage of the wills style.
Yeah. Stuff. There's like an, an attentiveness in the story to the degrading reversal in his condition. And it is interesting that we get there finally, like the bottom of the pit maybe, or the barrel is like you said, the pods, which it's a bit like looking at Tide pods and being like, these are delicious.
I wish I could just eat these. So I, I think your point isn't lost. Like it's not just that like he looked at something gross and was so his stomach was grumbling so much that he might find something in there that he would find palatable. It, it's more than that. It's like this is just total nonsense. It, this is Romans one.
[00:43:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these pods, like, these aren't, um, you know, I guess I, I don't know exactly what these are. I'm sure somebody has done all of the historical linguistic studies, but the Greek word is related to the, the word for keratin. So like the, the same, the same root word. And we have to be careful not to define a Greek word based on how we use it.
That's a reverse etymology fallacy. Like dunamis doesn't mean dynamite, it's the other direction. But the Greek word is used in other places, in Greek literature to describe like the horns of rhinoc, like,
[00:44:21] Jesse Schwamb: right,
[00:44:21] Tony Arsenal: this, these aren't like. These aren't pea pods. I've heard this described like these are like little vegetable pods.
No, this is like they're throwing pieces of bone to the pigs.
[00:44:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:44:31] Tony Arsenal: And the pigs, the pigs can manage it. And this is what this also like, reinforces how destitute and how deep the famine is. Like this isn't as though, like this is the normal food you give to pigs. Like usually you feed pigs, like you feed pigs, like the extra scraps from your table and like other kinds of like agricultural waste.
These are, these are like chunks of bony keratin that are being fed to the pigs. So that's how terrible the famine is that not even the pigs are able to get food.
[00:45:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:45:00] Tony Arsenal: They're given things that are basically inedible, but the pigs can manage it. And this, this kid is so hungry, he's so destitute that he says, man, I wish I could chew on those bony, those bony pods that I'm feeding them because that's how hungry and starved I am.
You get the picture that this, um. This lost son is actually probably not just metaphorically on the brink of death, but he's in real risk of starvation, real risk of death that he, he can't even steal. He can't even steal from the pigs what they're eating, right? Like he can't even, he can't even glean off of what the pigs are eating just to stay alive.
He, he's literally in a position where he has no hope of actually rescuing himself. The only thing that he can do, and this is the realization he has, the only thing he can do is throw himself back on the mercy of his father.
[00:45:50] Jesse Schwamb: That's
[00:45:50] Tony Arsenal: right. And, and hope, again, I think hope with confidence, but hope that his father will show mercy on him and his, his conception.
I wanna be careful in this parable not to, I, I think there's something to what you're getting at or kinda what you're hinting at, that like his conception of mercy is. Not the full picture of the gospel. Yes. His conception of mercy is that he's going to be able to go and work and be rewarded for his laborers in a way that he can survive.
And the gospel is so much broader and so much bigger than that. But at the same time, I think it's, it's actually also a confident hope, a faith-filled hope that his father's mercy is going to rescue him, is going to save him. So it is this picture of what we do. And, and I think, I think sometimes, um, I want to be careful how we say this 'cause I don't wanna, I don't want to get a bunch of angry emails and letters, but I think sometimes we, um, we make salvation too much of a theology test.
And there's probably people that are like, Tony, did you really just say that? I think there are people who trust in the Lord Jesus thinking that that means something akin to what. This lost son thinks
[00:47:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:47:03] Tony Arsenal: Exactly. They trust. They trust that Jesus is merciful and, and I'm not necessarily thinking of Roman Catholics.
I'm not thinking of Roman Catholic theology for sure. I do think there are a fair number of Roman Catholic individuals that fall into this category where they trust Jesus to save them. Right. They just don't fully understand exactly what Jesus means, what that means for them to be saved. They think that Christ is a savior who will provide a way for them to be saved by His grace that requires them to contribute something to it.
Arminians fall into that category. Right. I actually think, and I, I think there's gonna be if, if there's, if the one Lutheran who listens to our show hears this is gonna be mad, but I actually think Lutheran theology kind of falls into this in a sort of negative fashion in that you have to not resist grace in order to be saved.
So I think. That is something we should grapple with is that there are people who fit into that category, but this is still a faith-filled, hope-filled confidence in the mercy of the father in this parable that he's even willing to make the journey back. Right? This isn't like right, he walks from his house down the street or from the other side of town.
He's wandering back from a far country. He, he went into a far country. He has to come back from a far country. And yes, the father greets him from afar and sees him from afar. But we're not talking about like from a far country. Like he sees him coming down the road, it, he has to travel to him, and this is a picture of.
The hope and the faith that we have to have to return to God, to throw ourselves on the mercy of Christ, trusting that he has our best interest in mind, that he has died for us, and that it is for us. Right? There's the, the knowledge of what Christ has done, and then there's the ascent to the truth of it.
And then the final part of faith is the confidence or the, the faith in trust in the fact that, that is for me as well, right? This, this is a picture of that right here. I, I don't know why we thought we were gonna get through the whole thing in one week, Jesse. We're gonna spend at least two weeks on this lost son, or at least part of the second week here.
But he, this is, this is also like a picture of faith. This is why I say this as like a systematic theology lesson on soteriology all packed into here. Because not only do we have, like what is repentance and or what does regeneration look like? It's coming to himself. What does repentance look like? Yes.
Turning from your sins and coming back. What is, what is the orde solis? Well, there's a whole, there's a whole thing in here. What is the definition of faith? Well, he knows that his father is good. That he has more than enough food for his servants. He, uh, is willing to acknowledge the truth of that, and he's willing to trust in that, in that he's willing to walk back from a far country in order to lay claim to that or to try to lay claim to it.
That's a picture of faith right there, just in all three parts. Right. It's, it's really quite amazing how, how in depth this parable goes on this stuff,
[00:49:54] Jesse Schwamb: right? Yeah. It's wild to note that as he comes to himself, he's still working. Yeah, in that far off country. So this shows again that sin is this cruel master.
He hits the bottom, he wants the animal food, but he's still unfed. And this is all the while again, he has some kind of arrangement where he is trying to work his way out of that and he sees the desperation. And so I'm with you, you know, before coming to Christ, A person really, I think must come to themselves and that really is like to say they need to have a sober self-knowledge under God, right?
Yeah. Which is, as we said before, like all this talk about, well Jesus is the answer. We better be sure what the question is. And that question is who am I before God? And this is why, of course, you have to have the law and gospel, or you have to have the the bad news before you can have the good news. And really, there's all of this bad news that's delivered here and this repentance, like you've been saying, it's not just mere regret, we know this.
It's a turning, it's a reorientation back to the father. He says, I will arise and go to my father. So yeah, also it demonstrates to me. When we do come to ourselves when there's a sober self-knowledge under God, there is a true working out of salvation that necessarily requires and results in some kind of action, right?
And that is the mortification of sin that is moving toward God again, under his power and direction of the Holy Spirit. But still there is some kind of movement on our part. And so that I think is what leads then in verse 19, as you're saying, the son and I do love this 'cause I think this goes right back to like the true hope that he has, even though it might be slightly corrupted or slightly washed out because it's not like the full, bright colors of the gospel in its entirety.
But he doesn't deny that he's the son. He just ows that he's his worthiness. And so there's like a tender conscience somewhere in there concluding like I must, we can say like, well, I must not really be truly God's own, or God would never take me as I am. And so what we have here, I think is this lesson reminder of God, the difference between identity and harmony with God.
That harmony often gets disrupted because of our own sin, but this son here recognizes that he is still the son. And so I think he, he knows his father, like you're saying. I think he hopes for the best, but what he wants to put forward is, can I just come and be a slave in your house? Which incidentally is what he will become, but under better pretenses of saying, well, you will maintain you sonship because of some kind of meritorious earning, which is where we're all tempted to go because it feels better.
It feels more safe than trusting and embracing and receiving the fathers recklessly spend thrift love, which actually is the thing that keeps us in the identity of being a son or a daughter of God. So you're right, there's so much that's happening. Underneath there that, I mean, I'm sure some Puritan has written about that in probably 50,000 words.
[00:52:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:52:36] Jesse Schwamb: But there's so much there because I'm with you. I think there is a great hope because of understanding his identity, and yet he knows the harmony is disrupted to such a degree that what he also trusts in is that worst case scenario, I would rather be a slave for my father than I would rather be a slave to sin.
And I think only until you come to that place, only when you understand that you are a slave to something, into someone, that you actually start to ask, well, how good is my master? That there is a coming to yourself, which leads to repentance and God uses in his grand providence, all kinds of past, all kinds of undertakings, all kinds of campaigns, if you will, to bring us to that place.
But he must bring us to that place before we can have true repentance.
[00:53:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:20] Tony Arsenal: And, you know, we'll, we'll get into it more, but just because I, I don't feel great about, uh. Sort of throwing out the law in some ways and not finishing with the gospel.
[00:53:30] Jesse Schwamb: Let's get to the gospel.
[00:53:31] Tony Arsenal: The, the father's correction of this is again, like this is the systematic theology correction.
The son comes and he says, or he's planning on saying, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants. When we get to the father. The father cuts him off as I'm no longer worthy to be called your son.
[00:53:49] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right.
[00:53:49] Tony Arsenal: So he doesn't, he doesn't let him get to the point of, of proposing the meritorious salvation that he thought he was going to get.
He, he lets him acknowledge, right? He, the father, lets him acknowledge that he's no longer worthy of being his son, and then essentially says, but that doesn't matter because I am worthy of being your father, and I will make you my son again. That that's what he does. He brings the robe, he brings the sandal, he brings the ring, he restores and elevates him to a position of sonship that he didn't even before he left, didn't fully have.
We'll talk about that and we'll talk about it again. He, he doesn't come home and come back to being the second son. He comes back home. And this is part of why the older son is so annoyed, is he's actually elevated to the place of the firstborn.
[00:54:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: By, by begin being given all these symbols of inheritance.
And, and this is, you know, this is the other thing, and maybe we'll talk about this more when we get to the, get to what the father gives him. But in Jewish custom and in the Jewish law, the second born son would get, would get one third of the estate. And so he comes back and one third of, I mean, who knows?
We don't know how long this trip is. We don't know how long he's been gone. We don't know how, um, how much the estate has been rebuilt. Obviously, the father is still working. It's not as though like his estate is just like stagnant and neutral, but when he comes back, a third of the estate has been wiped out by his reckless living.
When he comes back, he's
basically
given all the symbols to say
that
he's now guaranteed to have
the,
the two thirds.
[00:55:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:55:23] Tony Arsenal: So he comes back to this position,
into this estate
where the father elevates him
back to and
above his previous station
of sonship.
That is the gospel of Jesus Christ
right there.
[00:55:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:55:34] Tony Arsenal: That's double imputation baked into the pie.
Amen. It's not,
it's not just that. He goes, well.
Yeah,
you spent all this stuff, but I guess
like we can,
we can overlook that. That would be more akin to come back.
You can
start at zero,
I guess.
Zero is a servant in my house.
Go ahead and
work your way back up if you can.
Right. He comes back and the father says like, well, I've been working hard. I mean, I'm kind of like importing this into the text a little bit, but I've been working hard to rebuild the estate while you were gone. You took a third of it and I've been working hard and now I'm granting you at the, at a minimum, like I'm granting you back what you took away, what you squandered.
I'm giving it back to you. I'm restoring you, not just to neutral. I'm restoring you to this place of positive, favorable, gracious, loving communion with me, such that I'm gonna celebrate, I'm gonna give you the best things. I'm gonna kill the animal, and we're gonna have the best feasts, we're gonna have the most fun, we're gonna celebrate because you're alive.
You're back, and you're alive. Right. That's an element that I had never even thought of in this. You know, the, the father is not supposed to be pictured in this parable as omniscient, right? He has to see the son coming back. I, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm my kid's only almost four years old, but I know a lot of people who have teenagers that they go out and like, they don't come back for days at a time.
And that's a terrifying thing for a parent. Now imagine if he was off in a far country and you don't have phones, you don't have a cell phone, you can't track him on your iPhone. This, this father is, so, he probably had counted his son as dead right there. There probably wasn't another conclusion to make that when he disappears like that, this is a, this is a real return and a real resurrection in a sense, in this parable that we, we should not overlook, right?
I think we think about the, the phrasing at the end there that your brother was lost and now he's fine. He was, he was dead and now he's alive. We think of that as like poetic or metaphorical or, or, or some sort of like hyperbolic statement. But in a very real sense in this instance, this son really did come back to life for this family and he was brought back to life and restored back to life by the grace of the father in in restoring him to this place of sonship.
[00:57:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. That initial interaction, that requesting, that demanding is like a severing of the relationship. Yeah. It's basically saying, I wish to go away and to disconnect with you completely as if you were dead and I was a different person.
[00:58:00] Jesse Schwamb: And so I think a great place to end, like you said, is let's be reminded that God's mercy is not reluctant, like God's mercy comes in hot.
The embrace comes faster than the son's repair attempts. That's exactly how God treats us. He delights to bring that mercy to his children when they come before him in repentance day after day after day. Thank goodness. Praise God that his mercies are new every day. And here there are mercies for this son Yeah. By the way, before we end, I have to ask Tony, what flavor is the double imputation pie? Is that like a, is it a fruit pie or is that like a more of a cold, like custard based pie?
[00:58:42] Tony Arsenal: Well, you know, we do have a precedent on this podcast of talking about Exactly. Salvation.
[00:58:46] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.
[00:58:46] Tony Arsenal: Being the pie or the cake, right?
So the cake is salvation. I don't know. Whatever it is, it's sweet and delicious. Maybe it's like a meat pie. Maybe it's like a good, like minced meat pie with all the, like, are you
[00:58:57] Jesse Schwamb: going
[00:58:57] Tony Arsenal: savory? Good protein? Yeah. Maybe it's a savory pie. Okay. I don't know.
[00:59:00] Jesse Schwamb: Okay.
[00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: I've never had a savory pie.
[00:59:02] Jesse Schwamb: I, I like, I, you know how you say that?
I haven't either, but I would love like, what's it like steak and kidney? Isn't that like a famous.
[00:59:09] Tony Arsenal: That sounds awful.
[00:59:11] Jesse Schwamb: Well, isn't that like a, listen, do we have any brothers, sisters who are listening in in any of like the, yeah, the United Kingdom. Where are you guys at? Yeah, Daniel is a steak and kidney.
Daniel, you
[00:59:19] Tony Arsenal: tell us. Daniel Steak and kidney a real thing.
[00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we need to know.
[00:59:24] Tony Arsenal: Okay.
[00:59:24] Jesse Schwamb: Is it good? Is it delicious? Would you describe it as a pie of double imputation again, steak, kidney? I'm thinking,
[00:59:34] Tony Arsenal: I don't even
[00:59:34] Jesse Schwamb: know. Tony's not, not convinced. So look at his face is like, we need to end this episode right
[00:59:39] Tony Arsenal: now.
Yeah. Well, Jesse, I know how to end the episode. It's funny, it's funny. People, I'm glad people picked up on the little joke from last week, although it wasn't really a joke.
[00:59:49] Jesse Schwamb: No.
[00:59:50] Tony Arsenal: And I still have this recurring nightmare than we're gonna forget how to end the podcast. But last week we were trying a, a slightly different recording setup.
[00:59:57] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:59:57] Tony Arsenal: And somehow, maybe this is our AI overlords playing some sort of joke on us. Somehow, right after talking about how we were gonna blow the ending, the system magically muted Jesse's microphone. I could see his hands. They were nowhere near the keyboard. There's no possible way
[01:00:13] Jesse Schwamb: in the air.
[01:00:14] Tony Arsenal: Just absolutely.
The, the, the phone was like, or the recording software was like, not today boys. So we're on a different platform this time. Hopefully it won't do it.
[01:00:25] Jesse Schwamb: We're about to find out.
[01:00:27] Tony Arsenal: We will. When I say until next time, Jesse Honor. Everyone
[01:00:33] Jesse Schwamb: just kidding. Everybody
[01:00:34] Tony Arsenal: love the brotherhood.
What if the most famous parable in Scripture isn't primarily about the prodigal son at all? In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb begin an in-depth exploration of Luke 15:11-32, arguing that this beloved parable is fundamentally about the Father's lavish, shocking grace rather than the son's waywardness. The hosts unpack how Jesus uses this story to reveal God's character as one who not only forgives repentant sinners but elevates them to the status of beloved children and heirs—a grace so radical it scandalizes our human sensibilities. They also examine the often-overlooked older brother as a picture of "gospel complainers" who struggle to rejoice in God's mercy. This episode sets the foundation for a multi-part series that promises to reveal new depths in one of the Bible's most profound stories.
Throughout church history, interpreters have often focused on the journey of the younger son—his rebellion, his descent into poverty, his moment of realization, and his return home. However, Tony and Jesse argue compellingly that this emphasis misses the parable's primary purpose. Jesus tells this story in response to the Pharisees' complaint that he welcomes sinners and eats with them. The parable's answer isn't primarily about how sinners should behave, but about who God is—a Father who runs to meet returning sinners, who interrupts their prepared speeches of repentance with immediate restoration, who celebrates extravagantly rather than reluctantly. Every detail—the best robe, the ring, the fatted calf, the music and dancing—points to a God whose grace overflows beyond what we could ask or imagine. When we shift our focus from the son's unworthiness to the Father's overwhelming generosity, the gospel comes into sharper focus.
One of the most striking insights in this episode is the observation that the younger son returns expecting at best to be treated as a hired servant, but instead receives treatment that appears to elevate him even beyond his original status as a son. The father doesn't simply restore him to his previous position; he clothes him in the best robe, places a ring on his finger (a symbol of authority), puts shoes on his feet (distinguishing him from barefoot servants), and throws a celebration with the fatted calf (reserved for the most special occasions). This, Tony and Jesse argue, is a picture of what God's salvation accomplishes. We don't simply receive forgiveness that neutralizes our debt; we receive adoption that makes us heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. First John 1:9 doesn't merely promise forgiveness of sins, but cleansing from all unrighteousness—the removal of our guilt and the imputation of Christ's righteousness. This is the scandal of the gospel: God doesn't merely pardon rebels; he makes them sons and daughters.
The parable's second half introduces the older brother, whose response to his father's grace reveals a different kind of lostness. His complaint seems, on the surface, entirely reasonable: he has been faithful and obedient, yet never received such celebration, while his wasteful brother returns and is honored. Yet his anger reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of grace. He sees his relationship with the father in transactional terms—work deserves reward, and his brother's work deserves punishment. He cannot rejoice in mercy shown to another because he doesn't recognize his own need for mercy. The hosts connect this to the Pharisees who complained about Jesus welcoming sinners, and to the persistent temptation among believers to resent God's grace toward those we deem less deserving. The older brother's position outside the celebration—in the "outer darkness" of the parable—serves as a sobering warning about the possibility of being near to the Father's house while remaining far from the Father's heart.
This parable has something to tell us about the nature of the Father, the nature of God as the gracious God who is eager and ready to forgive his people, to forgive his son. It tells us about people who have come to faith, who have been regenerated, who have come to ourselves and have recognized the nature of the Father and recognized the gracious disposition of the Father. — Tony Arsenal
No human mind could invent or conceive of the gospel... You could give people all the time in the world to write some kind of amazing, try to come up with some kind of story, some kind of redemption narrative that would be this good, and we wouldn't be able to do it because it is just so far away from how our minds think. — Jesse Schwamb
He could have redeemed us from destruction and brought us out of that, but he's chosen not only to redeem us from destruction, to protect us from destruction and to bring us out of that, but he's chosen to make us his children, to adopt us as his heirs, as his inheritors. — Tony Arsenal
[00:00:48] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 476. Of the Reformed Brotherhood, I'm Jesse.
[00:00:55] Tony Arsenal: and I'm Tony, and this is the podcast that Tony is actually on. Hey brother.
[00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother.
[00:01:03] Tony Arsenal: lives, I'm alive. Yes. It's,
[00:01:07] Jesse Schwamb: As, as I said, the rumors of your demise were greatly exaggerated and here you are.
[00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: just barely. Yeah. I mean, the words your brother who was once lost has now been found, have double meaning on this episode.
[00:01:21] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. You're leading us right into this topic, which we've teased and teased and teased to extreme lengths, but finally, brothers and sisters, I think today on this episode we're gonna talk a little bit about the Parable of the Lost Son. After all of that, I think it was good buildup, but it's time.
[00:01:40] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And it's worth the buildup. This is one of the, uh, one of the like, big daddy parables. I mean, all the parables are profitable and useful, of course. But, uh, as far as like the, the, the major parables, this is, I don't know if this is probably the most major parable or the, it's certainly the most famous.
It's right up there with the Good Samaritan. So I'm, I'm stoked. I've been like wrestling and chewing on this parable for like a month now.
[00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: I know. How about it? We're finally here. There's so much to talk about. I don't wanna bury the lead. We're gonna get there. It, there's just. There's so much ex escalation, like so much evolution, evolution, evolution and escalation of this idea of like, it's three parables in one and really it's one parable in three parts, and we're, you're going from the sheep to the coin to a person now, and then there's this like, you can complain about the gospel.
All that's happening within this, I mean, there's, we could just do a, a podcast or an episode of the podcast. You could do a whole podcast just on the setup, but we're not gonna do that.
[00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: Well, we'll probably do part of that, but the other thing I'm sure that people have missed are affirmations, denials. And they're back.
It's 2026. We've got 'em. You want 'em? So as I've been want to do, Tony, my brother, are you affirming with, are you denying against.
[00:02:58] Tony Arsenal: I am going to affirm this is a very recent popcorn, coconut oil affirmation. Uh, both of us have been reading, um, James Linton's newest entry in the hierarchy
[00:03:10] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's right.
[00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: and both of us have now finished it. And I do have to
[00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yep.
[00:03:14] Tony Arsenal: um. The book was better than I thought it was gonna be, and I had pretty high expectations going into it. so if you haven't had a chance to check out the hierarchy, I know it, I think it's either gonna be a trilogy or a Quad trilogy. I've read that there's a plan for three books, maybe four books. Um, if you haven't checked it out despite our several recommendations, please do. It was. It was amazing book and kept you confused in all the right ways until, until suddenly you weren't so confused, which was like a really, it was like the opposite feeling as the first book, which was you thought you knew what was going on the entire time, and then all of a sudden it was just a totally different situation.
This I. I kind of felt like I sort of understood what was going on. And then in maybe like the last, I don't know, five pages, everything got upended again. Um, so yeah, it, it was very good. Uh, it's eminently appropriate. Um, there's no sex. There's. Sort of veiled swearing, but it's, it's sort of like fantasy world.
Different words, swearing. Um, it can be a little bit, um, violent at some points, but he does a good job of not making it overly graphic. Um, and there are some graphic things that happen, but he does a good job of not describing them overly graphically. So, um, I don't know that I would like read it to your kids at bedtime, but it's a.
It's a good book and it's worth, it's, it's a little bit of a slog. I mean, it was a long book, but it's worth the
[00:04:45] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:04:46] Tony Arsenal: you put into it. Um, I don't know when the next book's gonna come out. Probably a year and a half, maybe two years. Um, seems to be the pace. So you got time to go back and read Will of the Mini, which is the first one, uh, strength of the Few, which is the second one. And the forthcoming volume I've heard is called the Justice of One. I don't
[00:05:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:05:04] Tony Arsenal: if there's a fourth volume, what it's gonna be called. Um, but yeah, check it out. It was super good. It was super, super satisfying. Um, it was shocking in all the right ways. Surprising in all the right ways, but also sort of predictable in some of the right ways.
There were some things that happened that. Felt right, and like they're expected and they should have happened, and then they did happen. Um, I I, I get really frustrated with books when you really feel like it's supposed to go some way and then it just doesn't, like something fits and it doesn't happen.
So yeah. Strength of the Few by James Islington. I'm gonna try to pick up his other trilogy, I think it's called the Lactus Trilogy, um, just to get a feel for it. And I've heard rumors that, uh, James Islington is actually a reformed Christian, so we are gonna try to hunt him down if anyone happens to have contact information for James is LinkedIn please. Uh, please send it my way 'cause I would love to book him for the show and see if we could get him, uh, get him visiting.
[00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: We got 20, 26 goals. We got those squad goals. Actually, what's a really good way for people to get you? Let's say somebody has the contact information, they're listening and they're saying, we. I do with this hot little ticket that's in my hands. How could they get that information to us in a really fun way?
[00:06:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, we have a Telegram channel. Telegram is just this little messaging app. Uh, you just go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood. Uh, you can use it on any browser or any mobile device. You can access Telegram. If you go to your browser and point it to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, it will take you either to download the app or if you already have the app, it'll jump you straight into the, uh, into the conversation. Uh, there's several different channels or a little. Categories in there. Um, you know, anything from memes to, um, like a book reading club to prayer requests, um, there's a lot going on in there and it really is just a friendly place. There's about a hundred people in there, so it's not gonna blow up your phone all the time. Um, but if you have a question or you want to chat things or you happen to have James Linton's email address and you wanna share it with me, that is the place to do it. t.me/reform brotherhood.
[00:07:08] Jesse Schwamb: This is a great book. Like you said, the storytelling is epic's. Super fun. It keeps you guessing. In fact, you almost can't even guess at certain points. You've just gotta come along for the ride. And one of the things I also appreciate about James Islington is he's pretty responsive. So he has a website and he posts regular updates.
So I'm looking at an update that was dated December 2nd. He talks about the justice of one. He says he's got it up to 150,000 words in draft form, but he also is saying that he's going to release like a shorter sci-fi novel this year. So that man is just cranking books.
[00:07:40] Tony Arsenal: He
[00:07:40] Jesse Schwamb: He's just out there crushing it.
[00:07:43] Tony Arsenal: of
[00:07:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's, you just stole that. That's exactly what I was gonna say. He's the Sin Sinclair Ferguson of fantasy authorship. So he's doing his thing. But I love that he keeps touch kind of with his readership and he provides these little tidbits to just say like, I'm out here and I'm work. 'cause isn't there you, you and I have talked about this before.
There's almost nothing less satisfying than a really good series that you either start reading or you think is gonna be complete and at some point like it drops off and you have no idea what happened to the author. It's, it's hard. I mean, it's a small thing in the world of course, but there's nothing more satisfying than knowing that you're gonna get this whole series.
And I kind of like the breaks in between 'cause it allows you to kind of track and digest. And I've already like looked up videos. Maybe you've done the same thing, reading all this stuff about people's theories about what's going on. 'cause it's that good that like you wanna get. Other people together and talk about, it's that kind of book.
[00:08:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and Jesse and I have swapped theories about what's going to happen. I think we more or less independently came up with basically
[00:08:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:08:44] Tony Arsenal: theory. Um,
[00:08:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:08:46] Tony Arsenal: sure some of the nuances are different, but I would love it if, if, uh, someone in our telegram chat or other people have read, read this book. To hear what your thoughts are about what's gonna happen in the next book and what the kind of the next resolutions. I can't even, like, there's no way I can even tilt my hand about what my theory might be without spoiling like all of the best surprises in the whole book. So I think that's enough. Uh, fanboying over strength of the few.
For now, for now. Um, but do check it out. Strength of the few. James Islington. Um, I got it on Kindle. It was, it was easy enough to read on a eReader. Sometimes books aren't formatted well for eBooks. This, the formatting's good. The, the pacing is good. Um, just check it out. You, you won't be sorry. Probably if, if you like science fiction, fantasy kind of books, you won't be sorry that you invested the time in this.
[00:09:39] Jesse Schwamb: Agreed. Yeah. Good. That is a good strong starting affirmation.
[00:09:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what do you got for us tonight?
[00:09:46] Jesse Schwamb: I'm gonna do an affirmation as well, and I'm just gonna fan boy with two authors and I'm coming in 'cause you, you actually asked me about this for some opinion on it and I'm willing to give some, even though it's too early in the year, I suppose, but I.
I have really grown to appreciate some really good quote unquote devotional reads. You know, something that gives you a little bit to process and digest every day. And I was gifted walking in Faith 365 days with John Calvin, which is edited by Joel Beaky. So you got a powerhouse there, and it turns out.
Not shockingly, it's good and I'm just loving, again, the ability to have like snippets of really good writing that don't overwhelm you in the volume so you can really slow down and chew on them a bit. And additionally, one of the things I really like about this particular volume is that it's in.
Technical order, so it moves you through the scriptures as if like you were perhaps just reading through one book of the Bible and it's taking these like little pieces and snippets along the way. So of course it's in Genesis, we're early in the year as you and I are talking, and so it's just moving you through.
I'm just at Jacob and Esau and just drawing out some really lovely distinctions, some theological truths from a little piece of scripture, some commentary on that. Then some kind of additional Bible reading paired along with that for you to take in the process as well. It's just. Good, Joe Bke is great. I mean, what can we say about Calvin?
[00:11:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:11:09] Jesse Schwamb: So it's really a lovely pairing and he is curated it very nicely. And again, I love that it's kind of moving through the scriptures in a way that's familiar to us, just in terms of the order of the scriptures themselves, at least that they've been ordered for us. So if you're looking for something, it's not too late.
I mean, I suppose you could just pick this up and do it whenever you wanted, but still early in the year. So I don't know. Wherever books are sold, I'm sure you can find it. Walking in faith. 3, 6, 5 days with John Calvin, who doesn't wanna spend that much time with John Calvin. Everybody does. So go well. Most everybody does.
Go. Go and check it out.
[00:11:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think that curation aspect is really important because anyone, I mean, and people should and do this and it's fine and, and edifying, like you can, you can pick up a like year through the institute's like
[00:11:53] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:11:53] Tony Arsenal: plan. Um, but some of the institute's, like, it's just not, not theologically bad, but it's just not good writing.
Like there are parts of the institutes that are just really. Dull and dry and hard to get through. So a good book like this that's gonna curate and I'm assuming if he's going through the scriptures, they're pulling from his commentaries and other works. Do, um.
[00:12:15] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:12:16] Tony Arsenal: It's important because even the best writers have bad parts of their writing, either because the writing is bad or because sometimes the material they're covering is dry and something like a biblical commentary, like you're gonna cover the genealogies.
And that's probably not the most compelling commentary to read is what John Calvin thinks about the, the. You know, six chapters at the beginning of First Kings or, uh, first Chronicles, although I don't think he did a
[00:12:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:12:45] Tony Arsenal: on First Chronicles, but. The point stands that having someone who is knowledgeable and has s slugged their way through all of that to curate and to arrange it and to give it thematic cohesion, uh, is really helpful.
I would love to see more books like that. Like, like, let's Beaky, can you do one for like a brothel and. And Bob Inc. Can you
[00:13:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a good idea.
[00:13:08] Tony Arsenal: go through all of the major reformed, uh, writers and create this resource for us? Please, if you have Joel Bey's email also go to the telegram chat and, uh, and let us know.
Uh, it's probably not unrealistic that someone in our Telegram chat actually does have Joel Bey's email. Um, and I would be willing to bet that you could probably just find Joel Bee's email on like the Pure Term Reform Seminary website. He's probably not too hard to get hold of.
[00:13:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, but that's, that's not the one we're talking about. We, we want the burn it to the ground email. We want the Yahoo or the a OL address. We want that personal one.
[00:13:44] Tony Arsenal: it's like j Bke Puritan master@geocities.com.
[00:13:50] Jesse Schwamb: That's the one we want. We. Listen, Dr. Pki, we know that you have that email. Just just, just give it to us. Just give it to us. Join our Telegram group. It'll be amazing. And then just give it to us and then you can come and you can talk to us and we will give you all these amazing ideas like you've just done for free.
I like that. Think about like if there was like a volume set of these and then you could just have them at your disposal. You might like take one year and go through broccoli. You might go through Calvin. How awesome would that be? Like you just cycle through them just in perpetuity, alongside like your general reading or study of the scriptures.
I, I love it because it's like a, it's like a theological, oh, this could be a horrible comparison, but it's kinda like a theological dessert. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not saying it's, it's full of empty calories. I'm saying it's a rich, it's delicious. It's a great like night cap of your worship, as it were.
And. It is the best to have somebody who's gone through it and said, Hey, here's something really worthwhile that you should hear from Calvin every day on a particular part of the scriptures. And that's just how it, it's like it's the greatest hits, so you're just getting them. It's like they just, they're bangers.
They don't stop. They just keep hitting you hard every day. So I love your idea of like, can we just get more of that from everybody
[00:15:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, for sure. Well, Jesse, I have a feeling we're gonna need all the time we can get for this
[00:15:08] Jesse Schwamb: the time?
[00:15:08] Tony Arsenal: So rather than trying to segue our in our way into some clever transition, why don't
[00:15:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:14] Tony Arsenal: why don't we just get at it?
[00:15:16] Jesse Schwamb: We, we should get a, and I have a feeling that maybe some of the brothers sisters said that we're gonna need some of the time, but what you actually said was, we need all the time. And that is factually correct.
[00:15:26] Tony Arsenal: the times. Yeah, we're gonna
[00:15:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:15:28] Tony Arsenal: episodes for this one. I think I'll call it now.
[00:15:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's, that is absolutely true. So there is a choice ahead of us though. And that is, and I, this is where I'm at. I dunno where you're at. We're having the meeting as we actually record the conversation.
[00:15:41] Jesse Schwamb: I'm thinking, why don't we just read this whole thing to start with, just to set it up. We're certainly not gonna get through everything and I think even, we probably have some things we'd like to say in this set up itself.
But, uh, what, say you, let's just read the whole thing.
[00:15:53] Tony Arsenal: do it. Do you want me to read?
[00:15:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, go ahead.
[00:15:56] Tony Arsenal: I'm reading from the ESV and I'm reading out of Luke chapter 15, starting in verse 11. And he said he being Jesus. He said there was a man who had two sons and the younger of them said to his father, father, give me the share of property that is coming to me. He divided his property between them. Not many days later, the young son gathered all he had took a journey into the far country and there he squandered his property in reckless living. And when he had spent everything severe famine arose in the country and he began to be in need. he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country who sent him into the field to feed his pigs. And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything. But when he came to himself, he said, how many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger. I will arise and go to my father. And I'll say to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and earth before you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants. And he arose and came to his father, but while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his servants, bring quickly the best robe and put it on him and bring a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet, and bring the fatted calf and kill it and let us eat and celebrate for this. My son was dead and is alive again. He was lost and is found, and they began to celebrate. Now, his older son was in the field and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. And he said to him, your brother has come and your father has killed the fatted calf because he received him back safe and sound. But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and and treated him, but he answered his father. Look, these many years I've served you, I've never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours came who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fatted calf for him. And he said to him, son, you are always with me, and all that is mine. Is yours. Was fitting to celebrate and be glad for this. Your brother was dead and is alive. He was lost and is found.
[00:18:25] Jesse Schwamb: So glad those dulce tones are back. It's so easy to really get caught up in this. I mean, just listening to you give it to us, deliver it to us. It's so easy to, to get embedded in this story and to feel something about what's going, especially the end. I was just really struck by that older brother saying very directly like, you know, listen, you didn't gimme anything and this fool over here squatted everything with prostitutes, and now you've come back and you've welcomed him and celebrated him.
I mean, there, there's so much here. That is the beauty of this like three in one parable format, isn't it? We get the first two, which I think are really, like we talked about, designed to impress us upon us with this love of God. It's an activity which seeks out the sinner, which takes like infinite trouble in order to find him, rescue him.
And then there's this joy that's shown by God and all the host of heaven when even just the one is saved. And we've said again that we gotta remember the setup here. All that message is coming against this great accusation, which of course the Pharisees mean to be pejorative. But what is a true flection of our savior, of his loving and kindness that he welcomes?
He makes himself approachable by the least in society. The ones who had rejected religion once, for which like religion was not gonna do anything anymore. They're outside of it. That was for good men, and these were decidedly not good men. And so then there's this. Like I said before, I guess what was the word I used?
Evolution, which I think is like an elaboration and an elevation of this whole storyline. And now we're going from sheep and coins to this idea that God is stressing his activity alone, that he goes in this, there's this reaction condition of the sinner. And so the parable, I think here, at least to my mind, and I wanna hear what you have to say even as we start, which is that impresses upon us again, this aspect of this other like side matter.
Nobody should be so foolish to think that we should be automatically saved by God's love, even as the sheep and the last coin were found. And so the great outstanding point is still the same, but it's application. It seems to me, even, again, just hearing you say this to us is made more direct and more personal, and so we really need to get well, what is that additional direct and personal message?
What, what is the thing that we need to look at here and understand that connects us to the other two parts, being peace wise. Of this whole formulaic approach to salvation from God's view, but also is much more different and much more direct.
[00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think the, the sort of like intensification of these parables, know, maybe not, it's not like a progressive intensification, but we go from, we go from kind of like a herd animal that's wandered away. Has somewhat of an agency, but like does nothing to bring itself back. We go from that to a coin, which is totally inanimate and it is
[00:21:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:21:11] Tony Arsenal: and, and now we have this like fully orbed, fully fleshed out picture of salvation that fills in some of the gaps, right? I think if you just had the first two parables and you were using those, it gives this impression that we are entirely. Inert, I won't say passive. 'cause we are passive in our justification. We receive justification from external to us, and we don't contribute anything to the effecting of our justification. But we're not inert even in our justification. We're not inert, we're not just sitting there. Um, we, we respond in faith to God's regeneration and calling and justification comes to us through that faith. So this parable really does. Give us a bigger picture because it's not as though the son is dead in a ditch somewhere and the father comes and finds him like the son does and come back.
So it's, it's now not just a picture of. The redemption that God, you know, brings to his people and the redemption that Christ purchases, that the Holy Spirit applies to his people. It's also now a picture of what repentance looks like, and it's a picture of what recalcitrant looks like. It's a picture of what it looks like to refuse to trust the grace of God and to rejoice in the grace of God. We have a, all of those pictures are all there and it, it really is a. A pretty complex, it's a complex flavor profile. I, I feel like maybe it's because distilling theology's back and I was listening to it the other day, but it, it, it really is this complex picture of really a lot of elements of soteriology that I don't know that I picked up on, you know, in my casual study of this parable and, you know, and up until now, really kind of deep diving it.
[00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm with, I'm with you, and there's like a lovely kind of book ending here, or there's maybe like a huge punchline. That's a better way to say it because even as we start at the beginning, of course, with. Two sons, which is a wonderful way to begin this. I mean, that's just like pregnant and poignant with so much meaning.
So much like anticipation, because what's gonna happen, what are the two sons they seem to be, even from the beginning at odds or even as you're thinking of the younger you have in your mind. Well, I was told there was two, so they must come into play. They. I love that because there is this enjoin or this kind of attack where the Pharisees are kind of even made to be like the elder brother and 'cause they're not joining in in heaven's joy.
And the punchline comes later and of course it's still in response. The very last thing is still in response to the fact that you can say something totally true about Jesus Amina as an accusation and they're gospel complainers and the Bible's actually full of gospel complainers. I sometimes worry and, and as we were.
Setting up to talk about this. I was thinking what are the ways that like the modern ways, even the reform circles that we have or complain about grace and. I always think of Jonah and think, I would never be Jonah, but of course, like you get to the end of Jonah's legacy really. And the way that we know him at the end is he's just angry because of God's mercy.
And it's almost laughable because at the end of Jonah four, when Jonah's sitting out looking on Nineveh and there's been this grand repentance, and then, you know. Yahweh essentially says to him, do you have a good reason to be angry? And he's like, yes, because I knew you'd be merciful. And then God instill his mercy to Jonah in particular, of course, in the heat of the day, gives a plant to grow beside him and give him shade.
And then God brings in his. True providence and control over all things, a scorching east wind and it strikes down that plant. And then Jonah loses his shade and he's angry again. And this is why I chuckle, 'cause it's almost laughable. God says to Jonah, listen, do you have a good reason? He says the same question, do you have a good reason to be angry about the plant?
And of course Jonah's response is, yeah, I'm angry enough to die. And it's just like, isn't that our proclivity? And so like even all of this story is to. Challenge the idea that the gospel, I think if we're, if we're honest with ourselves, is sometimes gonna come cause us to complain about this incredible grace, this amazing grace.
That's what makes it so amazing. So the whole star story from start to finish puts us in both of the characters, doesn't it? I mean, I know that's a very common interpretation, but it's probably worth, I think, not forgetting that to the, from the beginning, from the end here. That the punchline is that. The Pharisees are being accused to be the elder brothers and we along with them at times, but that it's easy to complain about the gospel, even if you're totally down with, we're presumably gonna get to all the other parables about the workers, for instance, and their pay and all that good stuff.
But we're gonna see this theme over and over and over again that the gospel truly is radical. I think for me, the way it summarized the whole thing is that we're seeing like the recklessly spend, thrift love of God. I think I've said before in our conversations elsewhere that like there's so much in here that's not.
Not like good earthly human advice. This is probably not good, like in total, like parenting advice, for instance, in every situation it, it is showing though the incredible breadth and scope of God's love. And still, like you said, Tony, I like this. We should go onto this, this elaboration of this point where.
I think for many people like myself, one of my favorite parts in this is, and he came to himself, but that coming to himself isn't, he came to himself by himself, but that he came to himself under the realization of the father, that he ought to go back and to humble himself before him. And you're right.
There is this confluence of those two things. Maybe it's Erie is a better word in which they're coming together in harmony. They're not opposed to one another. We're not saying that he somehow earned himself the right and still, like he just got smart enough and therefore said, if I just go back to the father and I plead mercy, that maybe I'll have some opportunity to come back into the household.
You know, still is all God's work, but we're seeing the work of God in the sinner in this place, in the thing that was lost, which we don't see in the other two parables or the other two parts that proceeded.
[00:27:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, um, this is one of those parables too, where. If you look at a parable and say, it can only have one point, which I know is, is a common interpretive lens that a lot of people look through parables, look at parables through.
[00:27:38] Tony Arsenal: Um, if you look at this and say, well, it can only have one point that I think you're really selling yourself short. 'cause this, this parable has something to tell us about. The nature of the Father, right? The nature of God as the gracious God who is eager and ready to forgive his people, right, to forgive his son. it tells us about us. It tells us about people who have come to faith, who have been regenerated, who have come to ourselves and have recognized the nature of the Father and recognized the gracious disposition of the Father. Um, even, even. In the sons, the, the lost sons or the the prodigal sons, even in his, So maybe we should, we should just talk through it a little bit.
[00:28:28] Tony Arsenal: The son turns, when he comes to himself, he doesn't think he's gonna go back and become a son again. Right. He doesn't, he doesn't think he's going to achieve full forgiveness and restoration, but even his minimalistic understanding of what his father. Could, and, and I think it's reasonable to say like, likely will, he's going home because he anticipates that it will be successful, right? It's a, it's a
[00:28:53] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:28:54] Tony Arsenal: effort, but he's not, he's not thinking he's gonna get like thrown out again. He's thinking that when he goes home and he pleads with his father to become a higher, become a hired servant in his house, that the father's going to accept that proposition.
So even in that. That still would be a gracious response.
[00:29:14] Tony Arsenal: Um, I've read lots of commentaries on this over the years, and most of them make the point that the disrespect. Shown to the father by this son, um, would've been a justification for stoning under the mosaic economy. so he, he, uh, is going back to someone who has the right to.
Take his life, and he's anticipating that he won't. Right? So even that is a recognition of the graciousness of this father. And then he gets there and the graciousness of the father overflows beyond his wildest imaginations, right? He comes back and, and. I have to think, especially since the other son isn't like, oh yeah, we wear the best robes and the best rings and we have feasts all the time. This is not normal. It's not like this is just restoration. Back to the original state of sun sonship, he's now elevated in his sonship. He comes back and he's wearing the best robe. He's given the best ring. He has shoes on his feet. He is, there's a party. The fatted calf is being killed. He's, he's advanced to a higher level of celebration and fellowship than he was.
[00:30:24] Tony Arsenal: So this parable has so many different facets to it that tell us about ourselves, tells us about our salvation, tells us about God, tells us about the reprobates, which is. We talked about this in some of the other parables, like there's a judgment element to this. The son who refuses to celebrate the the lost coming home remains in the outer darkness.
He sits outside the party. He doesn't enjoy the fellowship of everyone who's, who's. over the restoration of this one. He is in the outer darkness. He is in where the goats are, where, you know, he's, he's out away from the fellowship of God's people in the parable. So, we'll, we'll unpack all of this in more depth as we work our way through the, you know, we'll work way, our way through the parable itself.
But there is so much here to unpack it just really is such a rich, beautiful tapestry of. Of theological insight and wisdom, and Jesus is just this master storyteller, right? This is
[00:31:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:31:27] Tony Arsenal: that he's, he's come up with that weaves all of these themes in. Of course, I mean, of course he's a master storyteller.
He's God, but as even as a
[00:31:35] Jesse Schwamb: Right,
[00:31:35] Tony Arsenal: he's, he's able to weave all these themes together in a way that is surprising, but also not really surprising. Like this
[00:31:44] Jesse Schwamb: right,
[00:31:45] Tony Arsenal: the way you would want this story to unfold. Like it's a comfortable, um. It's not shocking in the wrong way. Like, you don't look at it, you're not being surprised by, it's not like a, there's no twist to this.
If anything, the twist is that the older brother is kind of a bonehead. Right?
[00:32:05] Tony Arsenal: So, so I'm, I'm just really thankful that this is in the Bible. It's such a beautiful thing and it is so well known, even outside of Christian circles. People understand and know this story. It can be a really good touch point for the gospel.
'cause when you talk about the prodigal son. clicks for people. They may not know
[00:32:21] Jesse Schwamb: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: but they're familiar with that language. They know it's something from the Bible and you can use it to really explain the grace of God, the restoration of sinners. So I'm stoked to keep going on this one,
[00:32:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and that's why we need multiple conversations because I think that we're trying to start it in the right spot, which we, we gotta talk about the big things first. Like we, we, we, I know we wanna run and go and talk about all the details and people are probably like. Talk about the, like you said, the covenant between father and son and talk.
We'll get there, I promise. But I think we need to sit for a second and just think about the, just the grand arc. This, this whole, the whole of what's being communicated here is tremendous and it is captivating and you're rights like God has in his per nation made this to be the kind of thing that, uh.
Like, I like what you said, it captivates us in a weird way. It's not like storytelling to which we are drawn because we could conceive of it, but because it's so inconceivable and yet in that ability to like not fully comprehend the depth of this, it's the kind of forgiveness and restoration that we all sense we needed want.
[00:33:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:33:24] Jesse Schwamb: And of course we're still, you and I are still talking at the beginning of the year here, and one of the. Like, I think incredible themes that jumps out to me on this is truly like the possibility of a new start, a real new beginning for all. Even those who are most desperate, there's no case can be worse than this prodigal son.
Yet even he gets to start again. And like you've just said, and I think this is a critical point, he's not starting from a place of. Restored weakness or some kind of subcategory in the hierarchy of the family. He's actually been elevated back up and there's like a true resurrection or restoration here.
One might, one might even say like he's had a glorious fall because it's been restored to such a degree where he knows the father's love in a truly profound, in really intimate kind of way that he would not have experienced if he had stayed in the father's household. And so even I think at the beginning with this, him coming forward and asking for the inheritance.
Maybe we're getting a little bit of that flavor of Romans one that God turning over that he's working and seeking out that which is idolatrous. He thinks that is the kind of thing that will either satisfy or fulfill him. He quickly finds it to be knots, that kind of thing. And then he touches bottom. I mean, he goes all the way down so low that I'm not sure he could possibly descend any further, and we'll get to these details.
Of course, in his culture and his family in this foreign country, he's with husks and pigs. He's Penns friendless. He's hopeless. He's for alone. He's totally desolate and dejected, but even he gets a fresh start even he is called to make a new beginning, and the father, like you said, runs to him in that new beginning.
[00:34:59] Jesse Schwamb: That's the blessed gospel. Loved ones like that's the blessed hope. That's, that's the new thing that we're always longing for, that we find if we could just have that kind of restoration, especially when we fall, which we will continue to fall, we'll continue to sin. What a difference the coming of Jesus makes.
And all of that. It says Jesus saying himself again, like he is the messenger and he's the message. And he's saying, here I am. I, uh, here I am declaring freedom for the captives, like true restoration, true rehabilitation, true regeneration. And all of that's happening in the context of this story. And I'm with you.
Like, I don't wanna move too quickly into the details, which are cool and fun and support all of that without us kind of trying to process what that even means.
[00:35:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and this is a big one, so buckle up everyone like this is gonna be obviously. We're 30, 30 ish minutes in 30, almost 40 minutes into this episode. Uh, we haven't even, we haven't even started working our way through the text directly.
[00:35:57] Jesse Schwamb: True.
[00:35:58] Tony Arsenal: gonna be here for at least a couple weeks. So make sure you pick up a good commentary, make sure you pick up some good resources, read through this, really, really like, meditate on it and marinate on it.
And I think, you know, this parable has so much to teach us. It really is worth devoting the time to it. 'cause you know, I was thinking about it the other day. It's funny because like the older brother, almost like his annoyance actually makes sense to me. Not, not in the like gospel complainer sense that I think is like the point of the parable, but just on the surface of it, like he's not being unreasonable and,
[00:36:35] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.
[00:36:36] Tony Arsenal: tell us something.
Not only about our own dispositions, but that is not the, um. not the shocking part of the story, right? The shocking part of the story is that the father is gracious abundantly, above and beyond, not only to the younger son, but also to the older son. Gracious. He's gracious to the servants. I mean, ev, everyone in this parable across the board is benefiting from the beneficence of. father in this parable, the servants, the sons, everyone is benefiting from him. And I, I think that is the part of the parable that we often miss. And this is one of my little bugaboos, like this is, this is my version of broken for you. Um,
[00:37:23] Jesse Schwamb: Hit me
[00:37:24] Tony Arsenal: we, we call this the parable of the prodigal son.
[00:37:28] Jesse Schwamb: right.
[00:37:29] Tony Arsenal: the parable is not about the sons, like they're there.
And of course, as I said, like the parable has something to teach us about the figures that these sons represent. The, the, the, the theological truths that come to bear in the character and the. The story arcs of these sons as part of the parable. But the main focus of this parable, the main point is to teach us about the grace and the goodness and the generosity and the love of the Lord Jesus Christ and his Father and the Holy Spirit. And if we, if we start to shift our gaze in the parable, we, we get too bogged down in trying to parse out every little element of each.
[00:38:15] Tony Arsenal: and the servants and what do the pods represent and who, what are the pigs and who are the foreign, where's the foreign land and what, what historically, what's with the, in like when we get there? All of those things are good and well, and, and we'll talk about most of those things I think over the coming weeks. But if we miss the point of the parable that this is about the gracious. Love and forgiveness that is ours in Christ and the nature of the God who extends that forgiveness to us and the way that that forgiveness is obtained and, and applied to us.
Um, we, we lose a lot. We miss out on a lot. So that, I think that's why we're looping on it so much in this first episode here, is we have to nail what the parable broadly is about before we can invest time in the others, or we're gonna miss the point entirely. Okay.
[00:38:59] Jesse Schwamb: That's right on it. This is like truly scandalous. I mean, again, Jesus is clearly addressing the fact that in some ways, like you're saying, I think you can see how the Pharisees have a right to complain, or at least they think they have a right to complain in the same way the older brother does. Like I've been here all along.
I've done what you've asked for me, and you know, this fool over here again, went and just squandered everything. But now he's come back and he's celebrating him like he's the hero and. It's this idea, idea again that I, I, I guess it goes back to, I'm thinking of like one John, right? Where John says something like, behold, what manner of love the father has lavished on us, like these verbs.
These just almost, it sounds like, I think in a normal conversation, I don't know. I dunno how often we're using the word lavish, but you probably are being hyperbolic, but that John is not there. He's not trying to emphasize like, well, I just can't get to how big God's love. It is big enough. I need you to really understand it.
So I'm gonna go well above and beyond and use some kind of like really grandiose language here. But he says lavish. He's talking about this full magnitude of how God feels in his disposition towards us that is so scandalous and everywhere there's just scandal in the Bible, like at the top. Now I'm thinking this of this connection, just having read from John Calvin about Jacob and he saw and just how scandalous it is that God chooses Jacob, who's the deceiver, who's like just as a duplicitous life, who like for the sake can't get out of his own way actually.
And here is God a blessing and saving and covenanting with him. And so when God looks upon a sinner to save him, he regards him as loss in the need of being found sovereignly and effectually. And he does this out of his. His own goodwill and by his own prerogative. Not of course, because there's anything in that man that warrants or deserves that salvation.
And here you're just seeing that over and over again. It's you. I can understand if you're part of a family and you have siblings as a brother getting upset at that kind of situation, it would be natural, wouldn't it? To be like, are you kidding me right now? And so I think that's why the father of the parable says that my son was.
Dead. I mean, he was gone. He was lost. Completely helpless. And by nature, that's exactly where we are. Of course, we're dead. We're cut off from the source of life, God himself. We're lost with respect to God and we're lost from the perspective of God. And all of that's that's happening here. And I think, I can't imagine.
What it was like to sit in the telling of this and feel the tension of the parties involved in those who are listening, because I think there were a lot of feelings about what was going on and being said here. And mainly that was because I would sum it up as the, with the question, uh. Are you kidding me?
Or how dare you? Like this is crazy what you're talking about, the kind of love you're saying the father has is crazy in the sense that there is no earthly logic where we would be bent towards saying that seems completely undeserved. And I think the point is, you're exactly right. And no matter where you look at it, you might try to point to your own life or someone else's, or look at the little idiosyncrasies.
Idiosyncrasies of how we behave and think, well no, there should be some justice here. And that that's exactly right. Jesus has born on that justice being just and justifier through God himself. And in that way we get to have God's love lavishly spent on us. And when we think about how lavish that is, it should trip our minds.
Like it should kind of short circuit all of our processing because it is not natural. It is truly supernatural. And that's why I'm with you. Like we really have to, I think, take some time to like go over that over and over and over again. It's like singing the chorus of some kind of psalm or piece of worship music where you probably need to sing it 7, 8, 15 times in that repetition before it really starts to sink in.
And I'm not sure it's even sunk it to me.
[00:42:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah,
[00:42:51] Jesse Schwamb: Half of the way, and that's why I'm, I'm just saying it over and over again. This is the incredible love of God toward us and it is completely scandalous. It should be shocking if we're not finding it shocking. We, we probably need to evaluate more. I know. I need to evaluate more because it should be more shocking to me.
[00:43:09] Tony Arsenal: yeah, yeah. I think, um, I'm not a huge fan of. Theological hypothetical, like counterfactuals. And what I mean by that is we can sometimes, we can sometimes talk about like, well, what God could have done or, or whatever. I don't love
[00:43:27] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:43:28] Tony Arsenal: of doing theology, but sometimes it's useful and I think, um. I think that we often forget that salvation, like theoretically could have been different.
[00:43:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, I could conceive of a situation where God saves his people from destruction, but doesn't, doesn't elevate them to the place of his
[00:43:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:43:51] Tony Arsenal: his sons,
[00:43:52] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:43:52] Tony Arsenal: um. didn't have to do that. So E, even beyond the fact that he didn't have to save anyone, he wasn't obligated to save or redeem or store anyone. He could have saved us.
I mean, we talk about this in like he didn't have to make food taste good, right? He didn't have
[00:44:08] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:44:08] Tony Arsenal: sunsets beautiful. He did that for our benefit. He did that for our joy, and he delights in us taking joy in those things. The same sort of dynamic is true of salvation. He could have. He could have redeemed us from, and, and maybe this isn't the way to think about it, and I, I don't want to be too firm on this, but salvation could have been less amazing than it is, I think. Um, and we, we still would need to be infinitely, eternally grateful for it. But, but it could be less. Enjoyable. Less delightful, less delectable. Right? But it isn't, he's chosen not only to redeem us from, from destruction, to protect us from destruction and to bring us out of that, but he's chosen to make us his children, to adopt us as his, as his heirs, as his, as his inheritors, right?
So. In the same sense that this son comes back and is not just welcomed back as a servant or restored to the position of the second son in some ways, and this is why the anger and sort of the anger might not even be the right word. The annoyed, the annoyedness of the son, the, the older son some ways.
The younger son comes back and is actually elevated to the place of the firstborn son.
[00:45:29] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:45:29] Tony Arsenal: that is a picture of salvation that is so foreign to other religions, so foreign to any other religious system that has a concept of restoration and reconciliation with the divine. Um, that's not the way it works.
They, you don't become, you don't become, um, the family of. Allah, right? You don't become somehow like united to the ta, like to the Tao. Like that's just not the way any of it works in any other religions, and even in some of the Christian sects, when you talk about Jehovah's Witness and Mormons, and one is Pentecostals, they don't have a fully formed understanding of what it means to come and become God's children. Right? As a Mormon, you don't become God's child, you become God. Right. It's not about being united in faith and love and harmony with, with the father, son, and the spirit. It's about elev being elevated to a place where you're in your own divinity now. So this, this parable really does serve to orient us and reorient us, correct our misunderstandings about what salvation is in a really simple, straightforward fashion that is both expected. I think when I think, and this is, this is maybe the last thing I'll say before we, we wrap it up, is when I think about the really good dads that I know, right? The really, really good dads and moms too, but just, we'll just keep this with dads. When I think about the really good dads, they're the ones that just pick up their kid when they fall or don't, don't, um. Accept the apology. Uh, along with the discipline. They're the ones that actually elevate and restore and they, they bring their children to. A higher level, right? We're talking horizontally, of course, but a higher level through that disobedience that all, all children do, right? They don't just discipline their child, but through the discipline that is required because of the disobedience, they actually advance their child, they advance their child to a new place of fellowship and of wholeness. That that is. Really quite remarkable. And that is what the father in this parable does. He, he, this isn't just like a parable about, I mean, I think, like you said earlier, like in some ways this is actually probably really bad parenting advice, right? If your bonehead kid comes and says, gimme my inheritance, like doing it is probably not the best choice, right?
And, and then when he comes back like, just acting as though nothing happened, like, that's not good discipline, but that's
[00:48:21] Jesse Schwamb: Right,
[00:48:22] Tony Arsenal: the parable. Right. The
[00:48:23] Jesse Schwamb: exactly.
[00:48:24] Tony Arsenal: the character and the love of this father. So I'm excited to, to get into the specifics and the details as we go along. Um, I really think it's gonna be edifying and beneficial and, and I just love that we're in this long series where we're just over the scriptures together.
[00:48:41] Jesse Schwamb: I, I agree. I think that, again, I'm drawn to one John in two ways thinking about what you just said, which was so critical. One is going back to First John three again, I just wanna say, because I'm not sure if I read the full verse now, I think about it, but. It ties in exactly what you're saying. The point being that God's love leads to change of identity.
It leads to relationship and covenant, not just amnesty.
[00:49:03] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:49:04] Jesse Schwamb: So when John says, see where great love, and I do love that, you know, behold, check this out. See where great love the father has given us. Where. What does it result in that we should be called God's children and we are. I love that he has to add, add that at the end to emphasize like, trust me on this, like because of God's love.
It's this giving of this love that recklessly spend. Thrift love that amazing grace isn't just the kind of warm and fuzzy philosophy. It isn't just hopefulness. Or some kind of ideology that ought to make you feel good as if somebody's thinking of you. But instead, it changes you. It elevates you. It puts you in relationship identity that cannot be compromised because God himself holds it for you.
And so his love leads to being called his child, and you are. And he goes on to say, the reason the world does not know us is that I didn't know him. Dear friends, we are God's children now and what we'll be has not yet been revealed. And I think that's echoed then further on in the book, in that famous verse about what it means when we do come to ourselves by the power of the Holy Spirit for John one, nine, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins.
Except that's more than that, right? To your point, Tony, like the, I think this verse proves your exact point. It could have just ended there, right? Like John could have been like, that would've been enough, wouldn't it? That like we have sinned. We are cosmically treasonous against God. We are owed his wrath.
We cannot stand in his presence. Our molecules themselves will be torn asunder when our sinfulness comes into any contact with his pure majesty and holiness. And so the verse should probably be in that kind of world if we confess our sins. He's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins. That would be saying you no longer get the punishment, but it's far better than that, isn't it?
If we confess our sins, he's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That is the righteous and faithful God imparts his own righteousness to us by removing our own unrighteousness, not just in removing the consequences from the punishment explicitly of sin, but to give us the rewards of rightful obedience, which his son undertook in living.
And dying and rising for our benefit because he is for us. That is some amazing news and that is crazy scandalous.
[00:51:25] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:51:26] Jesse Schwamb: There is a prayer in the valley of vision that begins with no human mind could invent or conceive of the gospel, and I love that. Because it's absolutely true. You could give people all the time in the world to write some kind of amazing, try to come up with some kind of story, some kind of redemption narrative that would be this good, and we wouldn't be able to do it because it is just so far away from how our minds think.
Even when we push our minds to their farthest creative end, we just couldn't come up with this. It's that good. It's that amazing. It's that wild. And we all need that wild because we are wild people that are so far apart from God. So I'm with you how amazing it is that we can only really get to, I think, fully processing that in the course of this story.
I think even direct teaching would be good, but maybe not as good as what we get here. And so it draws us in, it compels us, it hems us into a plot, and then it kind of reads us or spits us back out as we are digested, I suppose, by the truth that's here. So there's so much for us to talk about, and I think there's so many good things to come, but we had to start here.
We had to do it. I'm sure people were just like throwing their phones. Yelling at their earbuds. Like get, get to the details. Talk about, like you said, talk about the country, talk about the, what it meant that he was with the pigs. We'll get there.
[00:52:50] Tony Arsenal: We will, we will.
[00:53:06] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, I think that's a good place for us to push pause for the evening. Uh, if you have been blessed by this episode and you're still listening to us, um, we would love it if you would share this with someone else. We spend $0 on advertising. I doubt we will ever spend more than $0 on advertising. Um, this podcast only grows and only spreads. I suppose like some people stumble on it randomly, but for the most part, people come upon the podcast because somebody recommended it. So if you found this conversation helpful, if you have been blessed by it, pick one or two or three friends that you think could, uh, could be drawn closer to the gospel. 'cause that's really what we're trying to do here, and that's really what this parable does, is to draw us closer to God through the gospel, um, and send them the link. Just you're listening to this on your phone, probably, it's probably an Apple phone, statistically speaking. Just hit that share button and send it to their text message and, uh, ask them to listen and then have a conversation with it.
That is the single best thing you could do besides praying for us, uh, to
[00:54:00] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:54:01] Tony Arsenal: and to bless us, is to share this content with someone else.
[00:54:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. And hopefully you'll, like you said, Tony, I love this idea of sharing it and then talking about it. Debate amongst yourselves, with your friends, with your family. Get into the scripture yourselves and enjoy it. It, this is here for us. It's here to encourage us to strengthen us and to, I think now, I can't remember the word that I used at the top, but I wanted to coin that.
I can't remember what it was. Was it Ella? Evolution? Yeah. And then take evolution into your own sphere of influence. And spread that around a little bit because I think that's like a strange Portman too, that I didn't mean to come up with. That's like doubled. It's got like, I've just, I've combined three words probably in that It's like a Uck in word, do you know what I mean?
Like it's, it's just within, its,
[00:54:44] Tony Arsenal: inside a word.
[00:54:46] Jesse Schwamb: yes. I'd like to think that's because one, it was super brilliant, but I didn't mean for it to happen, but two, because like no single word would do. So I had to like. Bring that. Bring that, bring that together. So listen, make up your own words. Come hang out with us in the telegram chat.
We really mean that. It's a new year and so if you've been listening to us, to us for any length of time, and this is the part of the podcast where you tune out 'cause you get tired of us saying you should join the Telegram chat. Don't tune it out this time. Maybe if you join, I'll stop saying it next time.
So just come hang out.
[00:55:13] Tony Arsenal: Probably
[00:55:15] Jesse Schwamb: It's not gonna happen. We'll talk about it forever.
[00:55:20] Tony Arsenal: We will. Jesse, I have this had this recurring nightmare over this last month. That I've been away from the podcast, that I would forget how to podcast and the, the way that it always manifests, I'm no joke. Like I had nightmares about this.
[00:55:35] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah,
[00:55:36] Tony Arsenal: is that I would forget how to do the closing line.
[00:55:39] Jesse Schwamb: that's fair.
[00:55:40] Tony Arsenal: like super nervous right now. I don't know if you can tell. I feel like super nervous.
[00:55:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we all heard that pause there. That was normally where we're like, there'd be the step in, and I will confess to you in the time that I got to just hang out with everybody and do it solo, when I knew that time was coming, I was always nervous because you always carry at least half of it. And so I honestly struggled sometimes with the how does it start?
So I mean. Do you want to count it down? Like what, what would make you feel comfortable? What what can I do is like your, your emotional support co-host here to help you with a close
[00:56:13] Tony Arsenal: like what you could do is honor everyone.
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What does it mean to be truly free from sin as a Christian? In this compelling New Year's episode, Jesse Schwamb explores John Owen's powerful 17th-century treatise on Romans 6:12, unpacking the crucial distinction between sin's presence and sin's dominion in the believer's life. Drawing from Owen's pastoral wisdom, this episode challenges listeners to examine whether sin merely dwells within them or actively rules over them. Through practical diagnostic questions and theological clarity, Jesse demonstrates how union with Christ breaks sin's reign while acknowledging the ongoing battle believers face. This episode offers both encouragement for the weary and a battle plan for those ready to wage war against remaining corruption through the ordinary means of grace.
One of John Owen's most pastoral insights is his careful distinction between sin dwelling in believers versus sin reigning over believers. This isn't mere semantics—it's the difference between a defeated enemy occupying territory and an enemy holding sovereign control. Owen helps us understand that indwelling sin operates like a guerrilla force: active, disruptive, and often humiliating, but critically, no longer sovereign unless we surrender the throne.
For believers struggling with recurring temptations or habitual sins, this distinction offers both comfort and challenge. The comfort comes in recognizing that the presence of internal conflict with sin is often evidence that grace has moved in and started an eviction process. The challenge lies in honest self-examination: Are there areas of life where we've made a covenant with sin, carved out corners where sin calls the shots? Owen's pastoral wisdom recognizes that you can have religious habits, theological vocabulary, and church involvement while sin remains the practical king in specific domains of life.
The Reformed doctrine of union with Christ provides the theological foundation for understanding how sin's dominion is actually broken. Owen emphasizes that Christianity is not primarily behavioral modification but entrance into a whole new reality. When believers are joined to Christ in His death and resurrection, that union fundamentally changes everything—not just legal status before God, but actual power dynamics in daily life.
This means grace doesn't merely cancel your debt or pardon your rebellion; it changes your master entirely. A new dominion has been installed, a new king now rules, operating by a new principle through the Spirit. This is why Paul's language in Romans 6 isn't just about forgiveness but about transfer of kingdoms. The Christian life isn't a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement—it's warfare under a victorious King who has already raised the flag on the battlefield. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect; you're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable.
Owen is allergic to spiritual shortcuts and secret hacks for holiness. Instead, he consistently points believers to what Reformed theology calls the "ordinary means of grace"—those simple, God-appointed channels through which the Spirit works to apply Christ's victory to our daily lives. These include the Word of God (not merely read but received with faith and applied with honesty), prayer (as dependence rather than performance), the sacraments (as visible grace strengthening faith), and fellowship with accountability (because lone sheep Christianity is essentially wolf delivery).
The hard truth Owen presses into our modern habits is that a neglected Bible and a prayerless life don't create mysterious seasons of spiritual dryness—they create predictable weakness. Grace reigns in lives where Christ is trusted, and Christ is trusted where Christ is attended to through these ordinary means. Owen would say that the Christian who doesn't pray against temptations they know they'll face is not truly repentant when they pray against them after they've occurred. This isn't legalism but recognition that spiritual warfare requires using the weapons Christ has actually provided.
The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare, yes, but it's warfare under a victorious King.
You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable.
When you sin, do you make peace with it or do you make war on it? Do you hide sin to protect it or do you expose sin to kill it?
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: as you fight, here's what we need to remember together. The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare. Yes, but it's warfare under a victorious. King. I mean, Jesus himself is the one raising the flag on the battlefield, calling us out.
Take heart, Christian, you're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. That I think is how John Owen would summarize. Free from Sins Dominion. Sin still dwells, but no longer rules. Grace doesn't just forgive your rebellion.
It overthrows the rebel regime. So I hope that that is in some way a small little treat as advertised for the new year,
[00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse and this is the podcast with the same old truth for a brand new year.
Hey, brothers and sisters, happy New Year. It's 2026 and it turns out the Band Smash Mouth was correct when they said the years just keep on coming. And on this episode, we've got a little bit of a New Year's treat for you. But before we do that, let me explain a couple things. Let me bring you into the Reform Brotherhood realm.
Give you a little peek behind the curtain because. We've received the questions, we've heard the rumors. What is going on? Where was everybody? And where is Tony?
[00:01:47] Jesse Schwamb: Don't worry, I have answers for you. So first, we took a little bit of a hiatus, just a couple of weeks for the holidays at the turn of the year here.
And during that time I did in fact see Tony with my own eyes. He does exist. Some have asked, has Jesse taken over the Reform Brotherhood podcast? Is there just one host? Now, is Tony in some kind of theological witness protection program because he's debated too many people online? I'm happy to tell you that Tony is alive and well.
He's doing just fine. But as I mentioned previously, his family's been going through all kinds of sickness, particularly his wife, who is my sister. She's had some intractable upper respiratory infection stuff going on, so please pray for her. He's been dutifully taking care of the family and her, and that's just meant that sometimes the podcast has to take a little bit of a backseat, so he is coming back.
He is alive and well. In fact, if you still want to interact with him, the best way to do that, as you've heard me say before, is you can actually, believe it or not, hang out with us. In the interweb sphere, and you can do that by going to T Me, lemme say that again. T Me Reform Brotherhood. It's been a while.
Loved Ones T Me Reform Brotherhood. And there you'll find a little chat group that takes place in the telegram. Chat. So come hang out. There he is. There he is alive and well. And we'll be back before you know it. And that's why this whole episode is not just a castaway, it's a little bit of a New Year's treat.
[00:03:19] Jesse Schwamb: And I say that because I think all of us at this time of year, whether we want to admit it or not, we do think a little bit about the fresh beginning, the new start, and. First, can we just say that what the world looks for in the calendar is what Christ gives to us in the every day? What a blessing that we have a God who gives us mercies, and those mercies are new every day.
That's the best of all things, to have something new. And again, I think of Revelation 21, which by the way, when I was with Tony, I just heard my father, who's an amazing pastor, preached so well on Revelation 21. What he called the other side of Christmas. Speaking of this all how new heaven, new Earth, Christ, making all things new.
And one of those things that hit me again in that sermon was that Christ is making all things new now. All new things, right? Amen. So that means that we get to be beneficiaries. Of the changing power of Christ, what a joy it is to have fresh beginnings, to have a new start without being made all over again.
And so this time of year naturally draws our mind to those things again, some of us make resolutions, some of us don't. Whatever your preference and your priority is, that's fine by me. I think this gives us a chance to be reminded that at the beginning of something new, at the start or turnover of something different, it does orient our minds to thinking.
What can I change? What can I process in a new and maybe more prolific or profound way? And so it just so happens that I want to make this New Year's treat for you, dear listener, brother or sister, because I happen to just come across a book that I've just finished reading in this new year. That I think sets us up perfectly with this in mind.
[00:04:56] Jesse Schwamb: If one of our goals just generally is to be more Christ-like, not for the sake of just emulating Christ per se, but because we see in him all that is elegant and beautiful and righteous and worthy, and so we want to partake in that kind of life and a very, very real way, and it just so happens well.
Nothing, just so happens providentially. What happened is that I came across, as I was looking through the stack of unread books, the things that I wanted to read, one just happened to catch my eye, and it was by John Owen. And it's a book about being free from the dominion of sin, and I picked it up thinking, I don't know, I'd read a lot about this idea of what it means to have sin and grace in your life and that this would be another great treatise on how to explore those concepts.
But what I found was, I think something so much deeper that was a treat already for me in this new year, and I think that's setting me up for how to process and frame and to think going forward in this new year. This is a phenomenal book. It's really not that long, so you can go read it yourselves, but the treat maybe might just be that you don't have to read it.
Let me bring forward some of the themes for us to consider, because I think this is a great way to start the year. In fact, I have read that the 19th century Scottish professor, John Duncan, would assign this book to a student. So as he was training particularly for ministry, and when he would assign this book to them for reading, he would say.
Gentlemen, prepare yourselves for the knife. I mean, what an opening, what an opening gambit for somebody who's recommending a book to you or acquiring that you read a book. And like Owen's stuff, I think that this is true. It's the kind of book that doesn't pull any punches. I mean, this whole book is written on a single verse from Romans 12, uh, Romans chapter six, verse 12, and the verse reads, let not sin, therefore reign in your mortal body to make you obey its passions.
And what basically Owen unpacks from that is he draws back to this idea of what it means to be not under the law, but now under grace. Now you guys probably know if you know anything about. John Owen, he was a Puritan hanging out in the 17th century and he wrote like he got paid by the Semicolon and this book called Free From Sins Dominion.
It, you know, it sounds like a victory lap, doesn't it? For the Christian, and this is what I wanna get into, this is where some of the treat lies. It sounds like we're saying, I'm free, I'm done, I'm out. And Owen is there with his knife. He's there lovingly and firmly and repeatedly to say yes. But also, no, not, no in.
There's no freedom, but no, as in you don't understand what kind of freedom this is. That's why it's so critical to think about this. So I thought let's hang out for a couple minutes. Let's walk through some of these ideas. This is all Owen. It's all stuff I've been processing. I'm hoping that it'll be something that sets you up for the new year, helps you think a little bit about what goals you might have.
And by the way, I don't think it's a bad idea to set some goals for yourself as long as you're not legalistic, but you come into this with a renewed passion to serve the Lord Jesus. In 2026 in big and faith reaching ways. I think all of that calls us to kind of communal response in living out the theology that we espouse or the things that we pack into our mind.
We're all gonna track probably this year, or many of us do if we're nerdy like you are Me, the things that we listen to and the things that we read. But what about the end of the year? Like the content and the spiritual depth of our lives. If we could measure that, if we could actually think back on it and meditate on what have we done, what have we tried to process, what have we tried to live out?
I don't think it's a bad idea to say to yourself, if I'm going to think about that this time next year, what will I have to think about, if anything? So I think Owen really sets us up here with this big idea.
[00:08:39] Jesse Schwamb: And the big idea is this, sin still lives in believers, but it no longer rules believers. Sin still lives in believers, but it does not rule there anymore.
It remains a presence, but it's not a king. It still barks but doesn't own the house. And if you're thinking, well, great, so why does it feel like sin has a mortgage on my soul? Owen has answers for us. And those are questions that equally, almost every day I think about. And the beauty is he's not gentle about it, but he's deeply pastoral.
He's like a doctor who tells you the truth while he also hands you the medicine. And that's one of the things I really like about this book. So let's talk about this idea of dominion. Why even throw that in the title Dominion's, kind of an old tiny word of power and control, and I dunno how often you use dominion like in your vocabulary, just casually when you're talking to people.
But he starts off by essentially telling us what he means by this. Actually, more importantly, like what scripture means about sins, dominion, it's rain. It's talking about rule mastery governing power. Dominion means sin, calls the shots, sets the direction, issues the order, and gets obeyed. And so. After all that's set up, the question that we get that's diagnostic is, and I pose this to you, is sin merely present in you or is sin in charge of you because it's not the same thing.
I think believers with various senses of conscience and sensitivity to these, these things will process that differently. And you should try to understand is sin merely present in you or is sin in charge of you? And I might add not just in charge writ large, but are there areas of your life where you've courted off, sectioned off where sin is in charge, where it is calling all the shots?
A believer may feel sin painfully. I mean, I think there are times by God's grace that I do, and I'm sure there are times when you as well feel that way. Sin may harass. Attempt interrupt and disturb, but. The scripture insists that that's different than sin reigning. In other words, the believers fight with sin is now proof of sins dominion, actually, it's often proof sin has lost dominion, and I think this should be great encouragement to us.
Lemme say it like a different way, tyrants. Don't usually get resisted by loyal subjects, and the resistance itself tells you something has changed. If you are rebellious against sin, then this shows something about your power to one, perceive it to be an enemy, even if it's present you're in the war, but also that there is power that you've received.
Externally to recognize and then to fight against that sin, and no one knows that. The tender conscience is going to panic here because that's what tender conscience always do. Tony and I talked about that. If you're tender, you hear sin and your soul immediately opens 12 tabs entitled, what have I Not Saved?
And we've joked about how this is kind of one of those things, especially in reformed circles, where we are so quick and insistent to show the depravity of sin, to emphasize the point, and then to bring the law to exemplify that point that sometimes this, especially among the sheep, those who are saved, those called in Christ, they become discouraged.
And whether it's any of the Puritan writers who emphasize that without coming alongside and presenting the gospel side by side, or even more contemporary examples, you know, you've heard Tony and I joke about, you know, all these preachers who will really come down too hard almost on God's own people.
And this is where it's so important that we understand that yes, the bad news is absolutely necessary. I mean, first of all, the bad news is truth, and that is that we are totally depraved, not as depraved as we can or should be, but depraved in every. Part of our own lives such that sin is prolific and ubiquitous and therefore taints all things That is literally a death sentence.
And this is why the good news is good, because it's good news about bad news and that is that where that bad news is present. Here comes Christ as this second or the last Adam. So as in one. One man's sin all died in one man's sacrifice and righteousness all will live. Those who repent and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.
That is the good news. So Owen slows down and he says, look at the category. Dominion is not the same as influence, not the same as temptation, not the same as indwelling corruption. Dominion is a throne, and sin may still throw stones at the palace, but if Christ is king, then sin isn't. I think you heard me say on one of the more recent episodes.
That we all are slave to something or someone. So the question isn't who is your master, but what is your master like? And that's really what Paul is after in Romans. And what Owen kind of picks up here is his question is one of dominion. Woo. Who is set up on that throne? Two kingdoms, two masters. There's just one human heart.
And so the frame is that we are living always under a ruler. Ruler, or I think like some of the more. Literal translation of the scripture will insert the word slave there instead of servant. To really emphasize this point that you're either under sins reign or you're under grace's reign, this is one of those things in life that's truly binary.
You're either under sins reign or under Grace's reign. And here's the major reform note that Tony of I have. Really just some of our conversations have gravitated towards. You don't slowly graduate out of sins dominion by self-improvement. You don't level up into freedom like it's spiritual Mario car, you know.
The whole point of Paul bringing forward this contrast is that freedom comes through a change of lordship. Sin is not just a list of bad actions, it's a power, it's a master, it's a dominion. And grace is also a reign, not mere leniency. It's not like the opposite or it's not like some cosmic boys will be boys, but it's a ruling power through Christ.
And so the heart question becomes who rules you and who rules me? In all areas of our life, I think the Christian will be quick to say, well, Christ does reign. I think what Paul is drilling out here is more specifically, but who reigns in your finances? Who reigns in your sexuality? Who reigns in how you spend your time?
Who reigns in how you serve others? Who reigns in your disposition? Who reigns in how you take care of your family? Owen is totally allergic to superficial religion. It's one of the things I really like about him. You can have religious habits and still live under sins, dominion. You can have theological vocabulary, strong opinions, even church involvement, and still sin is the practical king.
And so we're really after, in this new year, at least, I want to be, what is the practical rule in dominion that supersedes everything in my life? And again, even the areas that I find difficult or that are tough where, who is ruling in those areas? Because the dominion of sin isn't measured by whether you have a conscience, but it's measured by whether you submit to sin as a governing authority.
And I think the challenge here for us isn't, again, just are we submitting everywhere to. As a governing authority, but are there places where we do carve out purposefully running headlong into planning where we allow sin to call the shots, where we, even if after the fact we, we have and expressed some remorse over those things, but in one point in this book, Owen says something so succinctly, it really just hit me upside the head and it was that he said something the extent of.
The Christian that does not pray against the temptation that they know they will face is not truly repentant when they pray against it after it has occurred. That was the knife, brothers and sisters. 'cause I was like, amen. That's right on. And that's I think what Paul is drawing us to here, that the real reign and rule of Christ is one of power.
And if we so desire it, if. Pray and ask or quest, the Holy Spirit move us from glory into glory. Even in these places where we find sin intractable, then we should want to wage war by the power of Christ. And there is real power to do away with sin, not entirely, but to face up against these temptations with strength so that our spiritual character, our spiritual resolve, our spiritual depth, authenticity, and abundant life is not ruined, destroyed, or hampered.
And so sin reigns. Of course for all of us in the old self, the, the old management Owen describes what it looks like when sin rules. He says it does so with the precision of someone who has watched his own heart long enough to be unimpressed. And so see here's, here's what he gives as some practical tips and I give to you.
[00:17:02] Jesse Schwamb: I'm just passing them along for this new year to get a sense for whether sin is raining or not. Here's, here's a couple things. One is that the will is bent towards sin as the preferred path, and that is there. Maybe there are parts in your life where there are mine, where that's where you want to go, and you know you probably shouldn't, but that's where you want to go.
The mind excuses sin, rationalizes sin or defends sin. I think we all have those characteristics in our lives. We say, well, I, I'll get to that eventually, or there'll be a better time for me to really confront that kind of sin. And so we make excuses or we just say, this is how it is, or this is how I was made, or this is my personality.
Another way in which sin reigns, or we can discern that it's raining. Is the affection love sin? Maybe not openly, but functionally. Or that the person yields as a pattern, not merely as a stumble. That is that we've cut ourselves into a groove of doing these things and at some point we just fall on our desire to actually move ourselves or pray that Christ would move us out of those things.
And so in Sin Dominion, a person may feel occasional regret, but the overall direction is sin gets its way. And I think if we're all honest. I think Owen is calling us to again, look at all areas of our life where we know that there are pathways in which we run headlong in that sinful way, and that we allow sin to get hiss own way.
And I think Owen is careful. Sin doesn't need you to enjoy every sin. I think sin, if we're like personifying, it is happy if you just obey. I mean, sin can rule through fear, habit, appetite, reputation, secret, compromise, whatever keeps you under its thumb, but it will attempt to keep you under its thumb.
Thumb. So you can think of it this way. Sin doesn't need you to throw a parade for it. Sin just needs you to keep paying tribute. And I, when I thought about this, I thought that is so correct and this is why it is so dangerous. Why does so compromising, why it costs so much because. Not only is it powerful in its rule and dominion, but that rule and dominion is one of just conscious and ongoing destruction.
It's emptiness in the committing of the sin. Even if you thought it would bring you even some kind of temporary relief, while often knowing in the act or while you're pursuing it, that's gonna leave you empty and destroyed. And that's all it does. So this dangerous loop, I mean, you can imagine this is reading.
This made me just think. How much mercy we ought to have for those who are around us, who are blinded by sin as we once were, who are living in darkness, which of course, why the Bible speaks of these themes of Christ coming in light to bring forward the illuminating presence of God's love and the purifying power of His forgiveness in his mercy, because the opposite of that is stumbling around living in darkness.
And so I love that Owen. Owen and Paul of course, pulls us into this direction of saying, here is how sin loses its dominion. Then if all those things are true and they can be true, and I think even like little corners of our living spaces, then how does SIM sin lose that dominion?
[00:20:17] Jesse Schwamb: And the answer is, union with Christ, this blessed union with Christ that we get, I mean the best of all New Year's treats when we come into the family of Christ, when he saves us, when we reach out to him with repentance and forgiveness, and he restores us into a new and living hope.
And here's the anchor sins, dominion. Is broken through that union. It's broken through that gospel. It's broken through all of the good work of Jesus Christ applied onto your behalf and to mine, not through vibes, of course, not through trying hider not through a streak counter. You know, it's not as if we come forward and somehow elevate ourselves to the place of the deserving poor and bring our empty hands and say, I'm now ready to receive our gift.
I think all of us know better than that. When we recognize how sinful and corrupt even we are in the saved state. That is that we still feel that battle that Paul talks about wanting to do these things and not being able to do the very things that I want to do, but the believer. Is joined to Christ in his death and resurrection, and that union changes everything.
I mean, think about that for a second. Joined in his death and his resurrection, like now, both of those things true. You are so tightly coupled and interwoven to those things that cannot be dissolved or separated. And of course that should change everything. If we recognize the weight of that one, it does change our both status, our identity, and it changes our harmony with Christ.
So Owen, I think wants us to see in his writing here that Christianity is not primarily, of course, behavioral modification. It's a whole new reality. That's why, you know, Paul can write, listen, I'm a new creation in Christ, brand new again. He's making all things new. He's making all things new. He's making you new.
He's making me new. It's like the Oprah style. You get new and you get you, and you are getting new when Christ is doing his work. And when is Christ doing his work? Always in his children. So Christ of course, didn't merely come to forgive sins guilt. He also came to break sins rule, and this is like the joy of living in 2026 when we know we have a victorious savior and that that victory applies to us in the here and now as well as when we'll be glorified.
And that matters because some of us only think of salvation like this. Jesus forgives me. God won't punish me, and that's fantastic. I mean, maybe we might go as far to say Jesus forgives me, and so now I have the God's blessing. But it's even more and bigger than that. It's all true. But what Paul is saying here is that's not the whole story.
Grace doesn't just pirate in rebels. Grace transfers rebels into a new kingdom.
[00:22:51] Jesse Schwamb: Grace doesn't merely cancel your debt, it changes your master. So when the New Testament says you're not under sin, but under grace, here's what Owen hears and he's articulating. A new dominion has been installed. A new king now rules with a new principle by the spirit through faith according to Christ.
[00:23:09] Jesse Schwamb: Now of course, there is a, but I still sin. There's presence versus the power in this, and that's where Owen anticipates the question that every honest, Christian, Christian asks, and I'm sure you have to, and that is okay. Level with me though, practically speaking. If I'm free from Sins Dominion, why do I still sin?
And I love that. One of the great things about puritanical writing is that they love to set this up where they actually create their own objections and put them into the book. So you're, you're reading something, a treatise from some Puritan, and all of a sudden you'll find in the main argument, here's an opposition.
And you might think, I, I wasn't even thinking about that yet, but now I am. And so I think if you didn't think about it yet, you should be asking yourself, well, if I'm really free. From Sin Dominion as you're promulgating, as you're saying in this little treat of the new year, then why in this new year in 2020 6:00 AM I gonna sin?
And I guarantee you, you will sin. And so why? I mean, it's already been. Four days. So for me, there's been a lot of since happened and a lot of grace and forgiveness. So Owen's answer is, uh, comforting and bracing. So, strap in. Here's what he says. He says, you sin because sin remains in you, but it no longer reigns over you.
It's there, but it does not reign over you. You'll may be thinking like this, that's just semantics. Uh, why that doesn't help me at all. Hang in there. I think this is like the meat of what Owen gives us in this new year now, even though he wrote in the 17th century to really give us, to hold onto by the power of the spirit to make changes that are spirit empowered and to move forward with victory and grace.
Understanding that all of that victory, all of that battle belongs to the Lord. So indwelling sin is like a gorilla force. It's active, it's disruptive, and it's often humiliating, but it's not sovereign unless you surrender the throne. I wanna say that again. It is this gorilla force. It is this thing that's trying to act and disrupt and to humiliate you and to bring destruction, but it is not sovereign unless you surrender.
[00:25:11] Jesse Schwamb: And here's a practical test that Owen actually gives us in the book. It's not to torment us, I think, but it's a test to help clarify. And I've been thinking about this and I think you should too. Here's a couple questions. When you sin, do you make peace with it or do you make war on it? Do you hide sin to protect it or do you expose sin to kill it?
Do you justify or do you confess it? And do you plan it, cherish it, defend it, or do you grieve it and fight it? Aren't those good? I mean, stop now and go back like 15 seconds and listen to those again if you need to, and you might, or write those down. Put those in like a little journal as I have and put those before you this year as you evaluate.
Are you surrendering the throne, so to speak on these things? Do you cherish sin? Do you make peace with it? Do you justify it or do you make war on it? Do you expose it and bring it into the light? Do you confess it and do you fight against it? You know, Owen's Pastoral brilliance is that he doesn't say believers never fall.
He says, believers don't settle. And since Dominion is less about some kind of single act and more about a settled arrangement, a covenant with sin and of course with a covenant in Christ is that bigger, better, glorious covenant, the one that restores us, give us abundant life and fulfills us. And if we replace it within any place, a covenant of sin, what we get is not just the, the opposite of that.
But we get sheer destruction. We get darkness, we get blackness. If you're constantly negotiating terms with sin, okay, sin, you can have this corner of my life and I'll keep the rest. Then I think what Paul and Owen would, Owen would say to us here is you're playing with chains. You're literally, we are allowing ourselves to be bound, even if it's in some small way, and to be bound in any ways to be bound overall if you're fighting, even if it's often clumsy like me, often tired, sometimes failing your warfare is probably evidence of grace's reign.
That power of God in your life to bring forward real change for the battle. And this is what we've, Tony and I talk about all the time.
[00:27:23] Jesse Schwamb: It's this very ordinary means of grace. In other words, like God delights to provide this kind of supply and resource to you, and it's his best way. He doesn't point you to some secret hacks.
There's no, you know, like list of like 20 things you can do in 2026 or probably should have said 26 things you can do in 2026, um, to be. A better follower of Jesus Christ. Instead, he points you to the Spirit working through God's appointed channels, these ordinary means of grace. What are those things again?
This is old truth. For a new year, we know that grace reigns through the word of God. Not merely read, but received, heard with faith, applied with honesty, especially on the Lord's day. Prayer, not as performance, but as dependence, both public and private. The sacraments, the ordinances as God's visible grace to strengthen faith, and then fellowship and accountability because lone sheep Christianity is basically wolf delivery, right?
These things. I think we sometimes set aside in the search for the hacks, the things on YouTube that catch our eye, that say, wouldn't it be an easy way to get outsized and leveraged improvement in my life if I could just do these things? And God says, no, no, no. What I've given to you is these means of grace.
And guess what? They're simple but profound. They're ordinary, but extraordinary in their effect. And they're the word prayer, sacrament, sacraments, and fellowship and accountability. So. Loved ones. We cannot get lost in the sauce on this. These are the things that God gives us. We ought to lean into those things, trust them.
And entrust ourselves to them because Paul is not saying that those things are gonna save you, nor are Owen. He's saying this is how the king's power is experienced in the life of the citizen. And these two mark, the fact that grace reigns and has dominion over our life rather than sin. If you want freedom from sins, daily tyranny, don't just glare at your sin and make speeches.
You know, use the weapons Christ gives because of the hard truth. Owen would gladly press, I think, into our modern habits, and it's this, a neglected bible and a prayerless life do not create, quote unquote, mysterious seasons of spiritual dryness. They create predictable weakness, and that's a really hard truth because I know that we're all busy.
But this idea of spending time, meditating, praying. Crying out to God that these things prevent. In some ways this predictable weakness and the grace reigns in the life where Christ is trusted, and we need these ordinary means to trust ourselves more to Christ, and Christ is trusted. Where Christ is attended to.
And so our attending to Christ happens in these ordinary means. Aren't you glad they're ordinary means? Because if they're, if we had to attend to Christ in extraordinary means, we couldn't even accomplish that. And so the aim then is not gonna be some kinda sinless perfection, but real liberation. I mean, here's the good stuff.
Owen's aim in this treatise is not to make you pretend that you're fine. And I love that because we, we shouldn't, my wife likes to say, I'm fine. It's all fine, everything's fine. And I, I sometimes challenge her and I say, you know, it's okay. That's not fine because there are many things that are just not fine.
We do not have to try to manufacture and sing songs of joy at the grave of Lazarus. You know, Christ's aim in this is to open our eyes to our own depravity, our own contingency, and then to rely on him completely and fully as the savior that he is. The savior that he was when he lived in perfect past of obedience and also died.
And so what we have from him is this promise that he will take care of us in the current state, and that current state draws us closer and closer to him if we recognize it by the power of the Holy Spirit.
[00:31:21] Jesse Schwamb: And so Paul's aim is to help you and me live like someone who has been actually set free. And I think here's what freedom from sins domain means.
It means things like we can say no from the heart, not merely from embarrassment. That as we look at sin and we can look on our savior who is crucified and we can say from the heart, I refuse to participate in that. I know it grieves the Holy Spirit. It grieves God the Father. It grieves God the son. It means that we can confess sin without collapsing in despair.
It means that we can hold these two tensions in reality that we are simultaneously sinner and saint. It can't be 2026 without a little bit of Luther. It means that we can recognize that we are in a great amount of. Full depravity under sins weight without falling in, collapsing into ourselves into complete de depression and despair.
It means that we can fight sin without trying to earn God's love. That God's love itself solidifying us. And identity as his children means that he does give us every supply in dire time of need to fight sin without fearing that we are somehow losing his love in the fight. But that because he loves us, he's with the fight.
In fact, he's the one that underwrites our battle, that equips us with the armor that sends us out with the weapons, knowing that we are in a state of depravity, and that yet he has changed our identity and reset our course, and now equipped us to fight the battle which we find ourselves in as he's with us.
It means that we can pursue holiness. Because we've been adopted and not just because we're trying to audition for God or that we're trying again to earn his favor by merit, it means that the holiness that we seek after now we don't have to worry about some part of our mind is, am I doing this? Because it'll somehow ingratiate God towards me a little bit more, or maybe today if I'm really good, or if I spend 45 minutes in prayer or two minutes in prayer or 10 minutes in the Bible, that I'll have a better day or God will appreciate me more.
He will draw closer to me. Now Owen says, listen, you can pursue holiness when you're under the reign of grace because you've already been adopted and so therefore there's no more performance necessary. There's no more worrying about, there's more guilt about why you do it. There's no more thinking about it in any kinda legalistic terms.
Throw all of that out because you're not auditioning anymore. You're already in the family. I think Owen would absolutely say, if you belong to Christ, your life cannot be a comfortable home for sin. And if you feel in some ways as I do that there are parts of your life where sin is very comfortable, and maybe even before it gets to the door and rings the bell that you're already opening and welcoming it in, then we ought to just pray.
Pray desperately to God that he would make our lives such that they would not be a comfortable home for sin. If he has to break us, if he has to crush us, if he has to cut us, if he has to take us over the anvil as it were of his grace, and strike us with the hammer of the law so that he could mold us in the gospel into some kind of beautiful and useful instrument for his glory, that in 2026 loved ones, we ought to pray that way.
And I know that's. Not an easy way to pray. It is a way though that promises that grace will reign and have dominion over our lives. It's not because God is petty, it's not because grace is fragile, but because a new reign has begun.
[00:35:02] Jesse Schwamb: So here's some final encouragement I think that. Owen gives us in this writing on this, what does it mean to be free from sins Dominion?
Here's what I think he would say is we can't deny the battle. Paul doesn't, and Owen doesn't. He dignifies it. Both of those men do. They tell you that the struggle is real. But they refuse to let you call defeat normal Christianity. Uh, maybe there's no such thing as normal Christianity. 'cause Christianity by itself is something so otherworldly, something so inconceivable.
We at once recognize that the bad news, that sin is prolific, it's destructive. Is hurtful, is so unkind is everywhere, and it hurts us. It hurts the believer and the unbeliever alike. And then this idea, this almost breathtaking, inconceivable idea that God himself loved his creation so much that he would send his own son to come and to bring restoration.
That Revelation 21 style, all things new is. Wild. Of course it's otherworldly because it doesn't make any sense if you're in Christ. The good news is for this year and all others, sin is not your king. Uh, maybe some people like need to hear that again, or maybe there's somebody in the back, you didn't hear it the first time.
If you're in Christ, sin is not your king. That doesn't mean that you'll never feel temptation. It doesn't mean that you'll never have ugly moments. You wish you could erase. It doesn't even mean sanctification is quick, neat, or Instagramable, but it does mean this since Dominion has been broken. Grace now reigns.
Christ is a ruler and the spirit is at work in you and me. So we don't wanna interpret the presence of conflict as the absence of grace. Now sometimes conflict is the very evidence that Grace has moved in and started an eviction. That if you are a rebel against sin, then Grace is ruling and has dominion in your life.
And as you fight, as I fight, here's what we need to remember together. The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare. Yes, but it's warfare under a victorious. King. I mean, Jesus himself is the one raising the flag on the battlefield, calling us out.
So take heart, Christian, take heart. Dear ones, take heart, loved ones. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. That I think is how John Owen would summarize. Free from Sins Dominion. Sin still dwells, but no longer rules. Grace doesn't just forgive your rebellion.
It overthrows the rebel regime. So I hope that that is in some way a small little treat as advertised for the new year, at least. Something for you and me to think about as we go into 2026. There's so much more. That we could say there is so much that we could talk about in terms of law and gospel and grace and antinomianism.
But I think the most important thing for us to remember is that Christ's grip on us is unbreakable, and that grip ushers us into and sustains us in this dominion of grace. And at the same time when I think Paul and Owen would challenge us with. Is that we need to remember that while Christ rules overall, we ought to examine ourselves and find those places where we do not allow him, or we restrict his rule in movement or we fight against him instead of fighting against the sin.
Which he's empowered us to tackle. Again, this doesn't mean that we'll be perfect, it means that we will continue on sinning, but I hope what you've gotten from Owen and what you've read here from Paul is this idea of the tender-hearted Christian that is. Resilient because of Christ that even in every fall there is a lot of resurrection, and that when we do stumble, that we get back up.
We seek repentance quickly. We keep short accounts with God. We move forward by his love and his power so that there is increasing levels of defeat, of sin, of mortification, of sin according to another work by John Owens in all of those things. I hope that we'll be reminded that in this year ahead there is victory for you and there is victory for me.
So that's the treat loved ones. We'll be back with your regularly scheduled, dual hosted programming very, very, very, very soon. Again, the rumors of Tony's demise have been greatly exaggerated and he will be back to join us. But before we get to the very, very close, there's a couple of things I wanna put before you as the new year begins.
First, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you to everybody. Thank you to people who listen. Thank you, people who will come and hang out in the telegram chat, which by the way, you can get to by going to t Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood. Thank you for those. Who pray for us. Thank you for those who send notes of encouragement.
Thank you for the feedback and thank you for your participation because this was really meant to be a conversation that Tony and I started 10 years ago that really we thought we'd love to have other people join in on. And by God's grace and his design and great providence, they have in a ways that have been like totally unexpected.
The Telegram Chat, for instance, is a way where brothers and sisters from all over the world are hanging out and just loving. Talking about processing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And man, is that a super delight. So do hope maybe in 2026 you'll make it your own resolution to just come poke around in there and coming out with us.
I would love to meet you. So come say hello. The last thing I wanna say thank you for is all of those who give financially to make sure the podcast. Still happens, to be honest with you. It's surprisingly expensive to do the podcast. And so whether it's like the hosting fees or the processing stuff, or just publishing the episodes, making them arrive wherever they arrive so that you can have them in the moment that you expect them to show up is costly.
And so at some point people started to ask, lovely Brothers, sisters said, you know what? I can't give a lot, but could I give a little something to make sure that it just keeps happening so that it moves forward? And so if you're in that place this year and you've thought, you know what? I would love to just give one unit of whatever currency it is and where you live in the world, we would be so happy and humbled for you to do that because that's what so many have done.
And all those little things add up. So if you are thinking, you know what, God has blessed in this podcast, and if he has, we certainly know it's not because of me, and it's not because of Tony. It's because God is good and His word does what His word does. It goes out and never returns void. And we hope that we're just constantly speaking and processing, metabolizing, chewing on that word.
And just bring it before you in conversation, because I know I can speak for Tony. We just love to talk about Jesus. We love God because he first loved us. I'm still constantly, every day amazed, even in this fourth day of the new year that God loves me and that he's for me, that he's with me in this year.
It's an incredible thing, and so if you feel that way too and are wanting to connect or give to something toward that end, we love for you to do that. Uh, here's the logistics. If you wanna do that, just go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood patreon.com/reform brotherhood, and you could give a one time or reoccurring gift.
You could do that in 2026 and a. I wanna say for all those who do that, and by the way, there have been brothers and sisters that have given to this podcast. So you can hear it every week, every time it shows up that have given four years to make that happen. And man, does that undo me because that is such a gift to God's people just allowing us to continue to speak his name and to put it out into the interwebs unapologetically.
And so that there are no Jericho paywalls that need to be torn down. There's no weird ads in the middle of this. There's no annoying bumpers at the beginning of the end. It's just us being able to talk about Jesus, and I love that. Lastly, I say to you, brothers and sisters come along with me and Tony this year.
We've got so many things we want to talk about. The list of parables that we're gonna continue to process together and go through is so big. I just never really have gotten a full appreciation. For all these amazing things that Jesus is teaching in the parables and how many of them there are, and even the ones that are like on the margin, where people are like, well, it could be a parable, it could not.
And we're just like, we're doing 'em all. We're doing 'em all. So I think that's gonna be most of our 2026, but I think we're going to really, really enjoy it together. So we'll be back at that very, very soon. I wish you the best, most profitable, productive, and spiritually filled, abundant year ahead of you. I pray for all of you that I'll be the best one yet, and it will be the best one because you will take seriously.
What Owen and what Paul has challenged us with here, and that is that we ought to ensure that grace has dominion over our lives. So get in there. Get in the battle. Get in the struggle. Embrace those ordinary means. Know that God is for you, and that he's freed you from sins dominion. And until we talk about something else next time, honor everyone.
Love the brotherhood.
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In episode 474 of The Reformed Brotherhood, host Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological question: "Is God humble?" Through a careful examination of Philippians 2 and the narrative of Pharaoh in Exodus, Jesse unpacks how Christ's incarnation represents the ultimate act of divine humility. This episode reveals how Jesus—fully God and fully man—humbled himself through obedience to the point of death on a cross. As we approach the Christmas season, this timely reflection helps us understand that Christ's humility isn't just a theological concept but the very foundation of our salvation and the magnetic force that draws sinners to him. Jesse connects this humility to Jesus' parables about seeking the lost, showing that God's love manifests through the paradox of the exalted one becoming lowly.
Christ's humility represents one of the most astonishing paradoxes in Scripture. As Jesse explains, humility is properly understood as a creaturely virtue—it acknowledges God as Lord and obeys as a servant. For the eternal Son to humble himself, he first had to take on human nature. The incarnation wasn't God ceasing to be God but rather God adding humanity to himself. The divine Son emptied himself "not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world."
This emptying makes possible Christ's perfect obedience. Since humility means acknowledging God as Lord and obeying as a servant, the Son took "the form of a servant being born in the likeness of men." This allowed Jesus to demonstrate a servant heart with equal passion for God's holiness and his people's purity. Unlike our inconsistent obedience, Jesus' obedience was "an all the way kind of obedience" that persisted through suffering to death on a cross.
One of the most profound insights from the episode is how Christ's humility functions as a magnetic force drawing sinners to him. Jesse notes that in the parables, tax collectors and sinners were drawn not to the Pharisees' teaching but to Jesus himself. They came "almost magnetically" to be in his presence and hear his words. Why would this be?
The answer lies in recognizing that "we all have a master" and "we are all bound to something." The critical question becomes: "How good and kind is your master?" Christ's humility reveals him to be the perfect master—one who does not lord his authority over us but uses it to serve us, even to the point of death. This servant-hearted humility draws people because it demonstrates love in action. When Jesus humbles himself to seek the lost, he reveals that the gospel isn't about making "naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him."
"To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant. In order to do so, then the Son had to take this form of a servant being born in the likeness of men."
"Christ's obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience. It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else."
"To humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather is pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity. To humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made."
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so.
Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people.
Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where all of mankind is on the naughty list. Hey, brothers and sisters, I am solo hosting once again on this episode, but I don't want you to worry. Tony will be back. Tony is alive and well. He is out in the wild doing his thing.
Actually, this is probably the time of year where Tony and I bring forward that annual or perennial denial. You know, the one, it's sy against the frailty, weakness, contingency of humankind. And most often manifested in this time of year in sickness. So I don't know where you live in the world, but in my part of the world, everybody's getting it and everything is going around.
The sickness is everywhere. And even if you're bobbing and weaving, if you're laying low, if you're trying to keep your head down, it just seems somehow. To snipe you. And so it sniped Tony last week and this week. Now it is his family and so he's doing what we shall do for another. He's caring for those in his own regard that are sick and unwell.
And so that means it's just me on this particular episode, but not to fear. We've got lots of great things to talk about.
[00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: In fact, the whole purpose of this episode is going to be talking about this question is God humble and. This, if you think it's just a one-off episode. It's actually born out of this continued series that we're doing where we're going through the parables.
And again, we've been talking a lot about lostness and finding things and Christ coming and seeking, saving those things that were very lost. And so as I continue to process this with Tony, one of the things that keeps coming to my mind is this question is God. Humble and what does that even have to do with any of these wild parables that we've been talking about?
You know the ones too, especially if you've been listening along and hopefully you have go back, check those bad boys out. We've been talking about the lost coin, the lost Sheep, and we have yet to get to because we're just teasing this for you. We, we keep telling you it's coming, but that's just to build like this amazing anticipation for the parable of the lost son or the prodigal son.
It's coming, and part of that, again, for me is wrapped up in this question, is God humble? So let's talk about that a little bit.
[00:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's interesting to me that throughout the scriptures, we find across both all the New Testament, that God gives us this imperative to seek humility or to put on humility, or to have a humble mind, as Peter says.
And it's something that is so ubiquitous that we kind of just flies by us. Of course. Like we would get the sense that it would be ridiculous to be like. I am so good at being humble that that in itself is oxymoronic. And yet we also know that we don't want to advertise, that we're trying to seek after humility.
'cause it seems like that's the very thing that we're trying to avoid in proclaiming or promulgating our pride and that kind of thing. But it's not just that, of course, God is seeking his children to be humble, but I think one of the most condemning things the scripture says to us about how God behaves.
Toward people is that he opposes the proud. So the opposite of being humble, and we'll get to that in a second. We had to define what that means, but let's just take for a second that the opposite of that might be being prideful. It is fascinating that it's not just God is indifferent toward pride, that he does everything in his volition to push against it.
And of course, because nothing can thwart the outstretched in mighty arm of God, that means that he wins inevitably against all that is pride prideful. And so he opposes it. And this is what. We should realize is that really the eschatological judgment, the fact that there is both heaven and hell reward and eternal punishment.
This is a reflection of God opposing the proud that in the final state, the one who says, I want nothing to do with God because I can take care of it myself, is the one that God must oppose pose because he always. Opposes that which is prideful, and so it makes sense. Then if he opposes the proud, if that is in a way, an enemy that he will ultimately defeat, it cannot stand up against him that shouldn't.
That in that path is both destruction that is internally derived and chosen, but also destruction that comes externally because it will be defeated. Then the best thing that God's people could be is to be humble. And so the question I think then persists, can God be humble? Is God. Humble. One of the things that is clear in scripture, again, this is the testimony of the entire arc of the salvific story of God and his recu of his people.
Um, the coming and drawing close giving of himself so that he might draw people onto himself. Is that the testimony of humility is both positive and negative in the scriptures. So we could look at examples of those who humbled themselves. That's what the scripture says, like Josiah, Hezekiah, Rebo, Ahab, Vanessa, and then there, of course, you could probably think of as just as many negative examples who did not.
What comes to my mind, of course, is Pharaoh. Or am Amen or Zetia. So what becomes clear though is when you look at those examples that the humbling first belongs to the hand of God. That even here, once again, God's doing all the verbs. That's exactly what he does. And so this idea of even like humbling yourself.
Has like a precursor, there's an antecedent. And is God doing some kind of great work to allow for this humbling to even take place? He initiates the humbling of his creatures. And once he has, then the question confronts us, uh, which is, are we going to receive it? How will we bear up underneath it? Will we submit ourselves to it because God has allowed us, or has humbled ourselves first so that we don't respond in kind.
So in response to his humbling hand. Will we kick against him? Or as the, you know, king James version says, will we kick against the gods or are we going to come and humble ourselves before God? So this idea, I think of humbling ourselves isn't just like you wake up one day and you say, no, it'd be really fantastic.
Is my life would be better if I was just humble. I, I hear that God opposed to the proud, I don't wanna get. Lost in that. I don't wanna get wrapped in that. I would rather, instead I just become more humble. Even the ability to humble oneself first comes from this humbling hand of God, which is of course the greatest gift.
And so of course Peter writes, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God. I mean, that's where I'm drawing this from and. That is the first descent of humility. The first coming down is a word that God would do that for us, will put us in a place that we might be humbled. And then the creature has somewhat in his turn kind of imperfect language, but somehow in his response that God is humbling me.
Will I embrace it? Will I humble myself? So given that background, I think you know exactly where I'm about to go in the scripture, and that is. The pretty, I would say, epic passage of humility, which is Philippians two. It's one of the most striking assertions in all of scriptures. That Christ himself, Jesus the Savior, the one who is truly God and truly man, he humbled himself and God himself truly divine, truly human, and the person of his son, he humbles himself.
And I think that is worth the slow meditation and a little bit of marveling again, as we consider that in light of. All that happens in these parables about lostness and ness is coming from in some way this first humility. And I think that's just so critical because it's not just context, it's the air in which we breathe and operate and understand who we are and who we are in Christ.
And so I think before like we even assume. I wanna assume like too much about like this idea of humility and then getting it ultimately to this question is God humble, which you may think I just answered by reading Philippians two eight, but in fact I think it's even more complex and more beautiful and more deeply layered than all of that.
I think it's worth for a second, just thinking about this idea of like, what is humility?
[00:08:35] Jesse Schwamb: And as far as I can tell, really the first mention of humility outright, like outright mention explicit notation in the scriptures comes in that showdown between Egypt's Pharaoh and Yahweh mediated through Moses and.
And I picked this because it's really instructive for getting a sense of how the Bible, how the scripture, the Holy Spirit is apprehending this word and driving it into the context so that we might learn from it, so that later on we're told that we ought to exhibit humility, put on humility that we understand it in the way that God has taught it to us.
And so you'll remember. Probably that Moses dared to appear before Pharaoh. He is an Exodus five, and he speaks on Yahweh's behalf, and it's that famous sentence, that famous imperative, let my people go to, which Pharaoh replies in my paraphrase, listen, I don't know who Yahweh is. I have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't listen to his voice. I don't acknowledge him, and therefore you can't go. It's just not gonna happen. What is incredible about this. What I think is like really illustrative for our lives is that Pharaoh swollen in pride here, and again, God's gonna pose him swollen with all of this. Pride has, it's not that he hasn't thought through what he's saying here, it's just that he's made an incredible miscalculation.
He actually did a little mathematics here as the creature, and he decides that. As a creature in relation to the creator God that he does not need to obey. In other words, he does not acknowledge or recognize or know this God, and because he doesn't know any of those things about Yahweh, then he's well within his reason to come to the conclusion that he does not need to obey and therefore he refuses.
The reason why I think that's so critical and a little bit wild is that is exactly what the natural man is prone to do to make this miscalculation built on even some kind of reasonable logic, so to speak. That says, well, because I don't understand it, because I don't see it, because I can't acknowledge it because I've never heard it.
Therefore, it cannot exist. It doesn't exist. It's not worthy of being obeyed. It's a bit like saying, just because I've never seen fire, that's not hot. And so it's crazy here that in the midst of all of that, we could say Pharaoh has made this enormous miscalculation. And so what he's going to do is he's going to essentially oppose God.
He refuses to obey, and then of course, Exodus 10 as we move. This story describes this call to humility, and it is a call to humility, which when I was thinking back through this, I was like, this is wild. Because we tend to think this story as like submission and beating down and humility might not be the principle word.
That comes to our mind when we think about how Har Pharaoh has to ultimately respond. But after seven plagues on the cusp of the eighth plague, God speaks to Pharaoh, and again, he's listen. He says to him, how long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? So fascinating because we have this. Humbling, mighty hand of God, the outstretched work of God, his hand and arm going out into the world of his creation and putting Pharaoh in a particular place and position.
And the piercing question in this context of this extended powerful encounter gives us this glimpse into the heart of humility, which I think is this humility recognizes and obeys the one who is truly. God. So there's not just an intellectual scent, but an experiential knowledge that comes from the revelation of who God is that is under his purview granted to his people, and that then causes us to acknowledge and obey the one who's truly Lord.
It's exact opposite of affairs response, which again says, I don't know that voice. I've never heard it. Who is Yahweh? And instead it's replaced with a humility that acknowledges that God is Lord of all, that Jesus Christ is one only son, and that his Holy Spirit is with and indwells his people and that he is truly Lord.
So humility entails this kind of right view, I think of self. Because Pharaoh Miscalculates, but the humble person makes the right calculus, the one who is created by God and accountable to God, which requires the right view of God as creator and this authority in relation to all his creatures. And so humility then is of course, like not a preoccupation with self or one's, even one's own lowness only in so much as it's in relation to what we just mentioned.
That's a right view of self. It's an agreement with God. Of course confession coming alongside agreeing with God, but it's a mindful and conscious understanding of who God is and his highness, his holiness, that he's high and lifted up, and then the self in respect to his position. You know, that's one of the things that I think always strikes me about humility is that it's this idea and this acknowledgement that God is high and lifted up.
And so while we don't come too hard on ourselves merely because we want to create a pity party, it's a recognition that. Aside from the mediator work of Christ to to stand in the presence of God would to be literally torn asunder by the molecule because his holiness cannot be, or rather, I would say our sinfulness cannot be in this presence of the one who is perfect in majesty and in righteousness, in intellect, and in in comprehension and creativity.
We cannot exist in that space apart from this mediated work of Christ the beautiful. Be editorial, like benevolent distance, so to speak, that Christ creates so that we might come into the presence of God, as Hebrew says, running as it were, coming in, not haphazardly, but purposefully into the throne room of God because.
And his holiness. He's a way to, he's made a way for him to be just and justifier. That is incredible. Loved ones. It's beautiful. And that is all. Again, I think just underneath this parable, it's starting with this sense of humility has brought all of this into play, and it's a critical part of God's design and plan.
There's a condescension, but I think even here, underneath that condescension is something about humility. That is worth discussing. And there is, the question again, is God humble. So put it another way. Humility, I think embraces the reality that you and I. We're not God. You know, pride led to humanity's fall when Adam and Eve desired to be like God, which is contrary to his command and humility would have obeyed his command, which is what we'll see when we come to Christ and especially Christ's work.
So.
[00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb: It strikes me then, and this is why I threw out this question, is like, is God humble? It's kind of a setup, I'll be honest, because all of I said so far, if you are keeping score at home, you probably should be drawing out then that I'm essentially saying that humility is a creaturely virtue. Actually, it's not just me.
A lot of people have said that, a lot of the old ones. I postulate that, that when we think about humility explicitly and in a narrow context, that's a creaturely virtue. It's a posture of. All of who we are, our soul, our body, our life, our activities, our families, our possessions. It's acknowledgement in those things and embracing that the goodness of God and that he is the one who controls and commands all things, all of our destiny, which means.
This question is God humble? It is kind of like linguistically and theologically tricky, like not for the sake of creating a tricky question for like a part of the game, but the the answer is in a sense, no, but not because God, I think is the opposite of what we'd consider humble. He's not arrogant, he's not prideful.
Rather, humility is a creaturely virtue and he's God. So we need to be again, in this appropriate separation of our state and who God is, recognizing that those are two very different things. All of this though, I think, contributes to moving us in a direction of understanding, well, what does this mean then?
For Jesus Christ, the God man, the one who humbled himself. You've probably been screaming the entire time. Will you get to that? What about that? And I think that is the critical question that is behind everything that we're reading about. In these parables. In other words, why is Jesus this way? What has brought him into this particular place to say these particular things to these people?
We talked last time about how one of the things that's remarkable is that all of these sinners, like the down out, the broken, the marginalized, the pariahs, they were all drawn to Jesus teaching, not even drawn. I mean, there's distinction not drawn to the Fara teaching, to the rules of the law, but drawn to Jesus, almost magnetically coming to him.
Compelled as it were, to be in his presence, to hear the things he was saying. Captivate, I mean, can you imagine yourself there? Not necessarily there in that environment, but captivated again by the teachings of Jesus, how good they are, how true they are, how incredible they are. And so I think it's possible for us to marvel then at that remarkable word then from the impossible, Paul, when he says that Christ humbled himself in Philippians two, eight.
And no, I think that that confirms our definition above of humanity, uh, of. Humility rather as being something in humanity, of being a, a creaturely virtue in that the eternal son first became a man. That's what Paul says in verse seven, and then humbled himself in verse eight. And I'm gonna submit to you that this is really the one of the most epic parts of the gospel that.
This is the only way we can get this kind of humility, this humbling of God is if first he comes to undertake the creaturely virtue so that then he himself or become rather, lemme say it this way, I'm getting too excited, loved ones. It's rather that we first must have God become a creature, so to speak, not emptying himself as we'll.
Talk about. Of, of his godness, but instead taking on this flesh so that he might humble himself be to be like his children who must be humbled and in fact will ultimately be humbled in the ES eschaton no matter what they believe. And so the verb Paul uses to capture the action of the incarnation is, is not humbled here first, but it's this idea of emptied.
So again, Philippians two is verse six and seven. Paul writes, being in the form of God, Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant and being born in the likeness of man. And so this movement.
[00:18:59] Jesse Schwamb: From heaven to earth, which if you're listening to this in more or less real or New York time, as we're coming into the season of the calendar where we celebrate the incarnation, again, I've been thinking so much about this beautiful gift of the incarnation, and I've been thinking about that in light of Jesus coming to seek and to save the lost and this real heart to hearts kind of way where he's speaking the truth to the people who need to hear it most, and they're drawn magnetically to him, into his teaching.
And so that movement. From Heaven to earth is an emptying. It's the divine son emptying himself, not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world.
I think a lot, honestly, especially this time of year, I think a lot about strange things like Jesus has fingernails and blood vessels and eyeballs and hair and toes. And shins and knee bones, you know, all of these things. Because to me it's this incomprehensible reality that God loves me so much that he would send his only son to be a creature, but in a way that was limited to the same creatureliness that I have.
And then would forever, in a way, in his glorified state, identify still with that creature. And only in that process could he come and humble himself. I mean, that's incredible. I mean. Could not have grasped like the divine privilege of not being subjected to the rules and realities of creation. But instead, he empties himself by taking our humanity.
He was emptying not by subtraction of identity, but by addition of humanity. This is the taking, the taking on, and this allows him then to become obedient and in that obedience, that passive and act of obedience. What we find is that Christ is able to say these very things that are exemplified in the parables, that this is the height of God, and he says, it is in your midst.
The kingdom of God is here and I am the kingdom, and it's all because he has come in such a way. To empty himself again, where that was not a subtraction of divinity, but addition of humanity. It is an amazing and glorious truth. It's the thing upon which like turns all of salvation and all of the world that God would do this and do it so completely that again, it's finalized, it's complete, it's already done.
So first, Jesus became a man. And then as a man came the ly virtue, he humbled himself. And Paul confirms what we learned about humility. In the negative example, I think in Pharaoh of Pharaoh in Nexus 10 and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
[00:21:49] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so.
Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people.
And those two things come together and coalesce in the gospel because we know that righteousness and holiness is completely vouched, safe to God. It's under his purview and his control, and it comes to his people when he draws close. That's how it was in the Old Testament, and that's how it was in the New Testament.
And so as Christ in human form is coming and drawing near to his people, he's preaching this good news message that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood will have salvation and eternal life in him So intimately wrapped up that again, he hasn't just come. In the Christmas season to make naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him, and therefore, because he's the indestructible life, your life and mine cannot be destroyed either.
I. So it is this amazing mark of the fullness of humanity and identification with us that he didn't just come on special terms. You know, I often think it's not like God on a deck chair laid out looking down as a creation separate as he were, as it were, just observing and kind of more or less interjecting here and there.
It wasn't Jesus coming at. Arms length, distance. It wasn't God snatching him up when the frustrations of our limits or the pains of our world fell him. He had the full human experience. He was all in fully human and body mind. Hearts will and surroundings. Fully human in our finitude and all of this frustrations that we share that are just part of our lives, fully human in.
Vulnerability to the worst of the civil world can work. Clearly that's manifested in his ign Ammonious death. Nor was he at the bottom spared the very essence of being human. He was accountable to God. Even there, that humility is incredible, that he himself learned, undertook, became obedient so that he would be accountable to God a father.
Hebrews five celebrates this. Exactly. I love this set of words. Although Jesus was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered and being made perfect. He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. And if he is our first brother, then the calling that we have is to do exactly the same, to come before him, to obey him and to see him as the one who is high and lift it up.
But that self humbling, that humiliation doesn't just stop with obedience. And that's why the apostle keeps going. It says to the point of death, how far did it take him? How far did he go? How far was he willing to go? Volitionally all the way. To the point of death. And Christ obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience.
It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else. You know, of course, even in the garden when he's praying and the disciples are with the in your shot and he asked that the cup might pass, we might reasonably ask what other option was there.
And so here even Christ says. Even to the point of death, forsaking all other things, real obedience endures in obedience, which is a really difficult thing. And so I'm grateful because my obedience is peace wise, it is part and parcel, it is weak, it is feeble. And instead we have Christ who is transferred all of his righteousness into our account.
And all of that righteousness is because of real obedience that he undertook, endured in obedience. And so Christ did not begin obedience and then surrender disobedience once the greatest threats loomed even in the garden. There he again. He is coming before the father and he is continuing to obey. He's humbled.
So I think God does indeed command our humility and one of the ways that he can command that it, well, there's many ways. First and foremost, by fiat, he's God and his character demands it. The second way is that, again, coming back to these parables. Finally, and lastly, we see that Christ is exhibiting great humility in the message that he's bringing forward and all of this, that he comes forward to save and all of the seeking that he undertakes, he conspires with God in humility to bring his children.
Into the fold. There was no other way without this incredible humility of Christ, this humility that shows us that it's not denigrating of humanity, but it's God's image shining in its fullness. That this is the very thing he comes to restore and to humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather it is.
Pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity to humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made. And Christ exemplifies that very thing. And I submit to you loved ones. It's that very humility. This is what I buried the lead on last week.
It's that very humility that draws the sinner. Because we all have a master. We are all slaves to something, which I know is really unpopular to say, but hear me out. We are all stuck on something. We are all bound into something. It's just like we say with worship, it's not whether we not, we choose to worship.
It's what we worship and we are what we worship. All those things are true. All those cliches stand and if they're true, then the opposite is true and that is that we're all bound to something. The question is how good and kind is your master. The thing in which you are bound to the thing which you choose to serve and submit to how life giving is that thing.
And the humility of Christ clarifies that not all of our hum lings are owning to our own sin that Christ had. None, none. Yet he humbled himself. Sometimes repentance is the first step in self humbling. Other times it's not. Our self humbling may often come in response to our exposure to sin, but even in Christ sinless as he was.
He heeded the father's call to humble himself. And so I think for us, as we think about what it means then to go and study these parables, we first even need to humble our understanding, our cognizance, our reasoning, our logic, that the scripture as given by God as his very word to us, stand so far above us.
That while we study it and we interrogate it, that we dare not stand in opposition to it because it is the high and lofty command of God for us because he's good and his love endures forever. So I hope that as we continue to build into this next step of looking at this final lost parable, that we can all continue to just appreciate and boast in the God man who in his humility, makes the gospel possible, and that in his humility shows.
A greater sense of what it means to have the abundant life. And we have to take Jesus at his word, loved ones when he says like He's come, not just to give life, but to give it in abundance that that is a real quantity, and that the humility of Christ in his life and death and resurrection testifies to one of God's clearest and most memorable promises in all of scripture.
That again, he humbles the proud and he exalts the humble. So it was with Christ. He humbled himself and God has highly exalted him. I remember reading John Owen writing about. Justification and Christ's time of suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and his preparation for the cross and inevitably his, his forsaking, his forsakenness on that cross and how Jesus himself entrusted his justification to God the Father, which I think is a.
A, a conception that will make your mind do a somersault. I mean, think about it long enough that even Jesus himself in learning obedience and taking upon himself the full measure of what it was to sit under the law and then to obey it perfectly, was still going to his death, knowing that he was gonna be the greatest sinner who ever lived yet was gonna be the one without sin, having committed any, that he himself was entrusting all of that he had accomplished and who he was.
To God the father, to justify him and his resurrection on the third day loved ones is proof positive that he is the savior. That we all long for that in our sickness right now, as in our world, as all these things groan, as they all say, in some way, maratha, Lord, come quickly, that we are acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the one.
Who in his complete humility satisfied the law of God to such degree that he was justified before God the father, and raised TriNet on the third day as proof positive that he is in fact the Savior, the chosen one, the Messiah, the first brother, the firstborn among the dead, the serpent crusher. The one who will come and redeem all of his people.
So I hope there's something in there for you that's an encouragement that lifts up as if they were even possible to do more than they already are. That lifts up these parables that we've been talking about, that it's not just, of course, that Jesus on this mission because. He's full of love. His love predated all of this.
Now, this is why we keep coming back to, uh, all Christians at all times, in all heirs. John three 16, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. Now whosoever should believe in him. Now, all the believing ones should have eternal life, and that eternal life is purchased by the blood of Christ and through his humility, but also it is a, a stark reminder that love always leads to giving.
And here we have God the father, giving his son Unreservedly for us, becoming Creature Lee, so that he might undertake the humility of the creature. And in so doing fully, not just, I would say identify with who we are, but become like us in every a. Way yet without sin, which is why can we rejoice that even now in the sound of my voice or yours, wherever you are, there is Jesus Christ in Heavenly Rumble.
Before the God the Father interceding perfectly as this incredible representative, as the scriptures are, he says, as this best of all, the high priests, the perfect one. Who is ushering us in to bend the ear, as it were of God because of what he's accomplished on our behalf. Man, that is good news. And if it's not good news and you don't think it is, you better check your pulse.
Check it right now.
[00:33:20] Jesse Schwamb: So you need to come back. And listen to the next episode because we are, I mean, I think assuming everybody's healthy, Lord willing, we're gonna talk about the Prodigal Son and really wrap up this culmination of the lost parables. But of course, you know that I'm contractually obligated to say to you all.
That you don't have to just wait to interact until the next podcast. You can come hang out with us, and I gotta say it again for all the people in the back. The way that you do that is this little app called Telegram. You might be using Telegram already to message with your friends and your family. If so, you might not have known that.
There's also a little group within Telegram for the Reform Brotherhood. Everybody who listens, everybody wants to hang out and talk about theology or life share prayer requests. It's all happening right there, and I promise you, you will not be disappointed if you come check it out. So you're probably saying enough already.
Tell me how to do that. Alright, here's what you do. Get a piece of paper, stop the car, put down the backhoe for a second, and listen up. You go to your favorite browser and you type in t me slash reform brotherhood. T. Me Reform Brotherhood. Come hang out with us. Come talk about the episode, and until then, everybody stay.
Well keep your head down. Don't list sick sickness night people. But remember, even if it does, you have this great high priest who endured obedience, in obedience to bring you abundant life, to identify with you, to resonate with you, to give you the love of God, and to finally conquer sin, death, and the devil.
I say loved ones, so until next time, you know what to do. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.
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In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological underpinnings of Jesus' parables in Luke 15. With co-host Tony Arsenal absent due to illness, Jesse takes listeners through the "deleted scenes" – insights and reflections that often occur off-mic – about the parables of the Lost Sheep and Lost Coin. These stories reveal God's relentless pursuit of sinners and set the stage for the upcoming discussion of the Prodigal Son parable. Jesse unpacks how these parables demonstrate not just God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active seeking of them – a grace that doesn't merely find us willing but makes us willing. This episode serves as a theological bridge, slowing listeners down to fully appreciate the scandal of God's love before diving into Jesus' most famous parable.
The religious establishment of Jesus' day operated on the principle that religion was for "good people" – those who could maintain moral standards and ritual purity. When tax collectors and sinners were drawn to Jesus, the Pharisees were scandalized not just by Jesus' association with them, but by the possibility that these "hopeless cases" might be included in God's kingdom. This context sets up the revolutionary nature of Jesus' parables.
As Jesse explains, "Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help pariahs in that way, and so it did no good then to command the good people to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities." What makes Christianity utterly unique is that it begins not with human initiative but with divine pursuit. God in Christ actively seeks those who are lost, not waiting for them to clean themselves up or take the first step. This complete reversal of religious expectations demonstrates why these parables were and remain so radical.
The Reformed theological principle that Jesse highlights through Thomas Watson's quote – "Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing" – strikes at the heart of human pride and misconception about salvation. Left to ourselves, we don't merely lack the ability to come to God; we actively resist Him.
Jesse elaborates: "How good of God that He would send His Son unto us while we were yet His enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against Him." The wonder of grace is not just that God forgives when we repent, but that He creates the very repentance within us. This is why the shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to find the one – the sheep doesn't find its own way home. This is the beating heart of Reformed soteriology: salvation is entirely of the Lord, from first to last, which makes it secure and gives all glory to God alone.
"God seeking us is the foundation of seeking Him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes us willing. That is the Reformed theology."
"He's not this like sinless Superman. What I mean by that is... it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us. But the beauty of these parables is... Christ puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save is brought into our lives."
"Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How good is that sentence?"
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: It reminds me of this quote from. Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes.
Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him.
Welcome to episode 473 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for Lost Sheep and Lost Coins. Hey, brothers and sisters, you're listening to another episode of The Reformed Brotherhoodhood, but you've probably already noticed. That we are missing my co-host and my brother Tony, who regrettably was taken up ill this week, and so in his convalescence, I'm coming at you with a solo episode and what are you probably asking is worth listening to in the solo episode?
Well, I have a proposal for you. So often what happens is when Tony and I sit down. And we record a beautiful, robust conversation, the definitive kind of talk on some topic. We shut off the microphone. And then of course he and I continue to talk to one another. And what often happens is somehow, like a second or a third episode basically starts because we go back to what we were talking about before and we have some kind of new insight or something new that we wanted to say that didn't make it into the episode.
[00:01:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so this episode is gonna be about some of those deleted scenes if you were, were like the things that. We talked about, but didn't make it into some of our recent conversations about the parables, these three parables of the Lost Sheep, the lost coin, and now The Lost Son. Now I know what you're thinking, and I made a promise to Tony.
We're not gonna get to the Prodigal son on this episode. That is something he and I are looking forward to discussing with one another and with you. So that will be next week. But on this little episode, I thought it was best to slow down just for a second and to give you, again, some of those things we've been talking about as we've been thinking about lostness, and to set that up as a precursor to wet your appetite just a little bit for this biggest of all of the parables, maybe the most well-known parable in the entire universe.
The parable of the prodigal son, which again, is coming for you, but not on this one. Don't even get me started. How dare you. Now, normally if this were a traditional episode, you would hear that ous segue from me that goes something like this. Hey Tony, are you affirming with or denying again, something on this episode?
And because it's just me, it'd be super weird to do something atenol with just myself.
[00:03:17] Jesse Schwamb: I figured it is high time for me to give you a particular affirmation, so here's what I'm gonna do. I am affirming with you like you brother and sister listening. I truly am affirming with you because as the year draws to close, I was thinking just again, how grateful I am for everybody who hangs out, everybody who listens, everybody who gives to the reformed brotherhood, because we all do it together.
Nothing happens by accident. Nothing shows up in your podcast feed without somebody taking care of the attendant costs, without people lending their voices, without conversation around it. And if you're wondering, well, who are these other people? Because I thought it was just you too. There are brothers and sisters from all over the world who are looking to follow closely after Lord Jesus Christ, wanting to process theology and wanting to do so in a way that makes us better and more obedient toward our loving savior.
And in serving those around us. And the good news is you also can just connect with us and with them. And the best way to do that, as we've said so many times before, but I'm gonna say it one more time for everybody in the back, is you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just a messaging app, and we've carved out just a little corner of that app so that people that are listening to the podcast can come hang out and talk about.
Whatever you want. So the way to do that is go to any browser, pick your favorite one, and just type in t me slash reform brotherhood, t me slash reform brotherhood, and that link will get you there. You can also do another thing. You can go to reform brotherhood.com. The podcast does have a website, believe it or not, and on that website, reform brotherhood.com live, all of the other episodes we have ever recorded.
And so you can search those by topic about what's going on in them. You can find all kinds of different things to listen to. You'll also find a link there if in fact you would like to also support the podcast. So we are so grateful for so many brothers and sisters. Who have decided, you know what? I've been blessed by the conversations by the community, and I wanna make sure that it remains that way free of charge to everyone.
And they're the ones along with us that are shouldering that burden, and I'm so grateful. So you can find a link there if in fact you are so inclined to give so. Brothers and sisters, I'm affirming with you it's time that I did that, and I'm so grateful for all of you. And again, the purpose of this little episode is to spend a little bit of time getting ready, getting after it.
[00:05:42] Jesse Schwamb: For this, the biggest of all, the granddaddy of all the parables, the parable of the prodigal son and I, as I was thinking about this episode, it occurred to me it's a bit like, I don't know where you live. Where I live, there are these signs on the road that can script the speed at which you can travel on those roads at least legally.
Right, and I was thinking about this as I was driving the other day, that I have a road with a speed limit. Say it's 50 miles an hour, but there is a bend in this road. And on that bend as I approach it, there's another sign of a different color that's more suggestive and it's a lower speed limit. It's as if to say, listen, I know you can travel at 50, but what might be wise right now is to slow it down so that you don't veer off the road because.
As you take this turn, what's best practice, what's most safe for you is to slow down for a second. And I was kind of thinking about that as we were going into these parables. We wanna get to the parable of the prodigal sun. It's dramatic, it's dynamic. There's all kinds of lovely details in it. It's exciting.
We've got people now finally, whereas we had intimate objects in agriculture, now we're getting to human family dynamics and interrelations and all this activity. And it's good. We should wanna get there, but I'm kind of feeling like it's a bit like that sign that says, you know what? We might wanna slow down for a second before you turn into this parable.
Why don't you take this curve at a slightly slower speed? And so hence this little tiny episode to bring to you again, some of those deleted scenes. Some of the things that Tony, I've been talking about that never have quite made it into all of the recordings, because they probably happened before afterwards and the recording button had already been disabled.
So. Let me give you the thing that I think, Tony, I've been talking about a lot and we've definitely been thinking about, and that is again, going back to like, why did these parables even come up? Like was it Jesus volition just to start talking about this stuff? Why is it that there are three versions of it?
Why are they kind of escalating and growing in magnitude? There's clearly a crescendo coming. Hopefully you're hearing it. Like it's picking up, the pace is moving, the volume is increasing, and the stakes are getting higher and higher and higher. So what gives why all of this? And I think we gotta go back to Luke 15.
Of course. We gotta look at just that first verse because to me.
[00:08:00] Jesse Schwamb: In Luke 15, this is some of like the best comfort food of the gospel, don't you think? I mean, in this, it's like the warmest, richest passage, almost all the gospels in terms of the presentation of this really good news. And you know, these stories aren't just sentimental tales.
They actually reveal the beating heart of reform, theology, the beating, passionate love. And heart of Christ for his people. This truth that God is the one who seeks, saves, and rejoices over sinners. And so we gotta start in context because it's precisely because of that beating heart, that initiative, that volition, that Christ brings all of this up, but he brings it up in response to something that's happening.
And that's where we get in verse one. Now, the tax collectors and sinners we're all drawing near to him. I think sometimes we run, at least I do way too past. Fast past that verse, the tax collectors and the sinners we're all drawing near to him. It should be the kind of thing like talk about things that make you go, Hmm, why?
Why are we getting that now? That specific indicator here that they're drawing near. And then not only that it's being told to us, but of course what was it about Christ that drew these people? Because traditionally there, there was a lot of religion happening in Jesus' day. In some ways something special and different is happening here, that while the religion was not drawing these people, that the, the superstructures there, the participants, the leaders were not drawing this crowd by design.
Instead, they're drawn to Jesus. There's something not just in the teaching but who he is, and Luke tells us tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to him. He goes on to say, and the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them. As a result of this, Jesus tells then these three parables.
It's almost like Jesus essentially saying to the Pharisees, listen, you're accusing me of receiving sinners. Yes, you are exactly right, but I want you to know why. What a beautiful thing for him to explain and then to explain it in these thrice kind of implications and stories and metaphors. It's a beautiful thing.
It reminds me of this quote from. Period in Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes.
Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him.
And it's an incredible thing. It's far better, not that grace finds us willing, but that grace makes us willing, that grace compels us because we do not even know what's the best for ourselves. And so here again, Jesus tells us these three parables, these three stories to convey this incredible point. And that is that there is surely hope for all.
God's love extends even to these sinners. That the glorious truth, that glorious truth shines out in all of these parables, and it's meant to be impressed upon us in like increasing degree that God's amazing love is both in its scope and its reach, and especially contrast. The ideas of then these.
Pharisees and the scribes on this subject, he comes at them hard with these series of events and these stories. Tony, I've been talking about that a lot. Like we just can't get beyond that. I can't even, I wish I could comprehend it in a more deep way. You know, the first two parables are, it's dying to impress upon us that the love of God.
Is this activity. It is effort and fire and reach and going after and passion and love, and it seeks out the sinner and it takes like infinite trouble in order to find him and rescue him. It's willing to pursue all to love, all, to take up the cost of all, and then to show the joy of God and all the hosts of heaven when even just one.
Soul is saved. So it's not even this massive effort undertaking, which weighs the benefits and the costs and says, well, it's gonna be worth it in the end because the dividends earned from making this investment will be far greater than the investment itself. And what God does in Christ is he sends his son not.
Reservedly, not like arms reach, so he could snatch him back up when harm beel him, but he gives him so unreservedly in passive and active obedience so that the sinner might be saved. Even just one and one, just one is saved. All of heaven rejoices there. There is a full consummate expression of happiness and completeness and joy of just one.
Being saved and brought into God's kingdom. In other words, if that entire cost were for just one, God would still be willing to bear it. Jesus would still come in his active and past obedience to accomplish that very thing. And it's all of this that's moving us, of course, to the parable of the prodigal son, but I cannot even get there.
Don't, don't even try to get me to go there. I know you're all doing it. So there is this great and incredible outstanding point.
[00:13:20] Jesse Schwamb: It's something else that Tony had been talking about is that there's a simplicity, of course in all of these accounts, but there's also like this great complexity, especially because of this context.
And I think as well what we've been really. Settling on in our conversations outside of the podcast is just how scandalous this makes Jesus seem and appear like that Jesus does appear or he should appear to us like too good to be true, too loving, too kind, too recklessly spend thrift. And again, that's what we're gonna find in the next parable, but that that is for real and it doesn't make him weak.
It might be an expression of meekness, a power under control, but it shows that the humility of God in Christ is really beyond our ability to comprehend in reach that is so thorough and so full, and so rich and so warm that Christ is, as it were, experiencing a great, great joy. In the sinner coming and being saved, and him identifying with the sinner to such a degree and going out and finding what was lost to bring it back in.
That this act of even when we come to him in repentance over and over again, we do not exhaust him because so great is his love for us. That he's coming to save continually and always, that he doesn't have to save over and over again. There's no additional sacrifice that's necessary, but that, that sacrifice is so great, so grand, so complete that it continues to bring us back into the fold to save us as it were.
Over and over again to restore us onto fellowship with him to restore the harmony of our relationship while never having to rescind or to rebuild again the initial identity that we have in Christ that was accomplished on the cross, but that this just seems too good to be true. It just seems so miraculous that my own sin.
As it continues to compound day after day, that is like continue to do the things I don't wanna do, as Paul said. But the very things I don't wanna do, those are the things that I do. It seems like this. At some point God would just become thoroughly exhausted with, and that's not the case. And these parables prove that to us over and over.
And over again. So this very context and setting of these parables shows. I think all of this like perfectly, and Tony and I have just been conversing about that a lot. We keep going back to it. Maybe we're a little bit afraid that if we keep talking about it, you're gonna be like, you already said that, say something different.
But we can't help. We're really come back to this and. Again, I'm drawn to this line that these sinners, the publicans, if you're totally down with the King James version that they drew near unto him, they came to him. There was something about him that they were almost like compelled or constrained as, as Paul says, like God's love compels us or constraints us.
That they themselves were feeling that almost this magnetism toward Christ to want to be in his presence toward what, hear what he has to say, and what a beautiful setup that they're being drawn into him. He's eating with them. He's doing this. Most intimate thing, spending time with the me, my shoulders, with 'em, and of course the Pharisees, the scribes, the religious leaders, they see this and it's recorded that they're grumbling.
They're complaining, right, man, what an adventure in missing the point. But that's there for us. I really think to pick up here as we try to understand what these parables mean, again, it's not just like the teaching. The teaching is so good, it's so rich and juicy and, and full of so many things for us to consume and to understand and to meditate on and to metabolize.
As well that we can just quickly mix Miss, like this incredible perspective of like the context of which it took place, like the literal environment and the circumstances of life, which in some ways were the progenitor, or at least were the very thing, the fertile soil, which gave Christ the opportunity to plant.
Then these seeds of the story and what I'm raised by is they felt that. I think these sinners felt that there was a chance even for them, that like in these man's teachings, there was a new and fresh hope, and even the Pharisees and the scribes saw precisely that thing. I think that's why, that's why they're complaining, and they had regarded these sinners as being so utterly and entirely behind, beyond hope and redemption.
I mean, that was really the Orthodox view. It was to say like, listen, they're so hopeless that they were to be entirely ignored. Religion was for good people. It had nothing to do with bad people. You know, unfortunately, that's so much I think of how people view even Christianity today, that this is a club for people who have it mostly together or wanna have it together or think that they can get it together.
Religion is for the good people and it should have nothing to do with the bad people. And it certainly had nothing to. To give these sinners just in the in, in our own day. Religion, by and in of itself, has nothing to give anybody, certainly nothing to give those who are hurt. Who are feeling hopeless, who are down and out, who are the abused, who have been written off, who are marginalized, who are pariahs, who feel that the guilt is overwhelming in their lives, who have all of these regrets.
Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help you oriah in that way, and so it did no good then. To command the good people, to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities. Religion, even in Jesus day, didn't offer that. And so you can see then that the Pharisees of the scribes were annoyed by our Lord's teaching.
Anyone who saw any hope for this public or sinner must to them be entirely wrong and a blasphemer, because that's not who religion was for. And yet the sinner here. I mean, can you only imagine loved one like the sinner here in seeing Jesus? And being with Jesus, and they were drawn to him by understanding that there was some kind of new and fresh hope for them.
And that's what's delivered in these parables to us. That how scandalous love of God is, is that from the jump, those who are with him recognize the scandal and said, this is so otherworldly that it seems like. This could be for me. And that is exactly why Jesus came, right? He came to seek and to save those who are lost.
The point is was not how he could be received back, but whether he could be received back at all, whether he deserved anything at all. And so the sinner coming and saying that, is it possible that even for me. There is hope that even for me, there could be restoration with God. That for all the things which I already know, that I'm far from God, that I see him as the one who has these incredible and high in standards that I have transgressed, is it possible that there is hope for me?
You know, just this morning on our Lord's day, because that's time of year, one of the songs that we sang was Joy to the World, and I was thinking even as we were preparing to sing that what, what other people conceive of that? Him. You know, we might rightly ask, is there any joy in our world today? Is there any hope?
Is there any peace? And the answer is, yes, there is. It's in Jesus. You know that he is the answer. But we sometimes need to start saying, what is the question? And the question is, who can come before God? What can I do to be saved? That is the question. And these sinners at least understood that. They're drawn to Jesus, they're drawn to come before him.
And so this stands out to me. It's something that we've been talking about a lot, this possibility of a new start, a new beginning for all, even for the most desperate, the ones that were so far off that they recognized that they couldn't probably even turn around. You know, sometimes like we colloquial say, listen, all you have to do is turn around and we use that language because we're tying it with this idea of repentance, you know, to turn.
Toward God to to forsake that which is our natural selves by the power of the Holy Spirit and to come back into the family of Christ. And I think that is good, but I think the sinner also recognizes that the only prayer that we have is that Jesus have mercy on me. Have mercy on me that that's the right place to start.
And I see in this, this idea, of course that's clearly articulated by our savior, that God is doing all the things that we are so lost. We're like that lost sheep that's just gone astray. That we desperately need help because we can't find our way back. I'm not sure we can even barely turn around. And I think if.
What Thomas Watson is saying is correct. Then the beauty of Grace is that it does make us willing because I, for one, would go kicking and screaming all the way. But the fact that it makes us willing, it makes us come to our senses, which I have a feeling is something we will explore in a future, future episode, but that God is setting forward all of that initiative, you know.
I like that John Rowan, John Owen also writes the sheep strays and knows not how to return, but Christ the good shepherd will lose none of his flock, but fetch them home. I love this idea. That's from his expedition on Hebrews. Actually, it's not even about this particular passage. The sheep does not seek the shepherd.
The shepherd seeks the sheep. So even in this narrative, we see all these beautiful elements that. You know, Tony, I talked about before this total depravity, but it's just a narrative form that there's no one that seeks after God. And so what we find is that God is bringing forward election, choosing his own.
He's bringing about definitive atonement, he's saving his own, and then there's a sexual calling he's bringing to himself his own. It's like the Westminster Larry Catechism says in. Uh, 59 Christ, by his intercession answers the demands of those for whom he has died and for them only. And all of this then brings about this like great and incredible rejoicing in heaven.
I think, not just because it's like, it's great to find lost things, but it's also great to see that God has done the very thing that he said he was going to do, that he's the one that's, that he's the author and perfecter of salvation. And so God delights. In the work of redemption. So this is like the thing that I think is incredibly scandalous.
[00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: This is the thing that Tony and I have talked a lot about, like privately, and that is how much Jesus has compassion and the ability, the true ability to sympathize. And that in these I, I think like underneath. All of these little parables and stories. The only reason there is an action of love. That love always leads to giving.
Love always leads to going. Finding love always leads to drawing in that the only reason that is happening is because of this incredible ability of Christ to sympathize with us. You know, the burden of these verses, the anchor of these verses is Christ sheer an amazing solidarity with all of his people.
All our natural intuitions tell us that Jesus is with us on our side present helping. When life is going well. It's easy to see that. It seems very clear, but in this text, we're finding that those who are drawn are the ones whose life are decidedly not going great, not doing that well. And so the opposite is being.
Presented for us in this kinda stark relief. It's in our weakness that Jesus sympathizes with us. It's in our pain and our own destructive behaviors that he comes, not because he himself has experienced any sin, but because he is a savior whose heart is wide open to go after and to embrace those who are in that state, which seems incredible.
Scandalous, like in our pain, Jesus is pained in our suffering. He feels the suffering as his own, even though it isn't. He's not this like invincible divinity. Well, lemme say it this way. It's not that his invincible divinity is threatened, but in the sense that his heart is feelingly drawn into our distress.
Is that a word? Feelingly, like that. He literally wants to, he feels himself into our distress and, and in that doing so his joy is increased because he's identifying with his children because he is coming close to them because he is going after them. His love leads to that kind of feeling ness, so it's.
It is not only that Jesus can reveal, relieve us and reveal, I suppose, but relieve us from our troubles like a doctor prescribing medicine. It's also that before any relief comes before, like a day of restoration comes before like that day of the shackles falling off before that time when the breakthrough happens, he's with us in our troubles like a doctor who has endured the same disease.
That's what's wild. That's what makes all of this so different than any other religious worldview, than any other kind of conscription of how to think about the world and any other philosophy. And he's a sinless man, but he's not this like sinless Superman. And what I mean by that is I think some of you heard, if you've listened for any length of time, you know that there's this song.
That is a children's song. That is something like Jesus is my superhero, and I always bristle that a little bit because it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us that we want all of this power. Of course we want this. Alien power to come and to restore our lives, to intercede, to do the thing that we cannot do for ourselves.
But the beauty of these parables is the thing that we cannot do for ourselves is still the thing that Christ puts, puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save. Is brought into our lives. He comes and saves us because he knows us.
And to know us is to become like us. And to become like us is to be humiliated, to come and to humble himself and to condescend to such degree that he is again, like this doctor who can heal. But before any of that comes, he's with us in the troubles. This is Emmanuel, this is God with us, that he is the one that comes and stands shoulder to shoulder with us in that pain that feels and empathizes and comes and ministers to us in that pain, and takes great joy in doing so.
And in fact, his joy, as it were, is enlarged in doing that.
[00:27:09] Jesse Schwamb: Our tendency, I think, is to feel intuitively that the more difficult life gets, the more that we're alone. We sink further into pain, we sink further into felt isolation, and these passages correct us. Our pain never outstrips what he himself shares in.
That is what's remarkable. That is what drives and fuels, I think, in a way, this passionate heart of Christ towards us and then results in this kind of unbelievable, really loved ones. Incredible, outstanding, inconceivable good news that Christ has saved us, that he would come and in the midst of our great ugliness and sinfulness and unkindness and selfishness, that he would not only identify with that and say, you who are broken, I delight.
To repair you, but that we receive then not just a restoration, but then all of the benefits that Christ himself has earned that are due him for his obedience. These also get credited to us. I think it's impossible for me not to conclude this little conversation that we're having without going to Colossians chapter two, which again, I've said this before, but as somebody who's worked in finance and banking, all of my adult life.
Actually, I dunno why I would say it that way, because you really can't, shouldn't be working in finance or banking as a child. But for all of my life I just find this language so resonant. And if you're a person that's borrowed money for any length of time or maybe basically just worked in the world and had to endure, if that's your word, or interact with finance than you are probably gonna resonate with this.
This too. But this is. An expression of what God has done for us in Christ. And I wanna begin reading in verse 13. And you being dead in your transgressions. Oh, man. Uh, sorry, I, I hate to do this. I often don't like to do this, but you're just gonna get my commentary, the Jesse commentary in between these in, in the midst of these verses because I, I should probably best practice to read the whole thing for y'all.
But I just, I am dumbfounded. I keep getting dumbstruck by these words and thinking about these in light of, uh, the incarnation and of Christ coming and these parables that he's teaching us that are just showing like as if he's just opening up his heart to us, and I can't, but help but stop and pause and say, are, are you hearing this too?
And you being dead in your transgressions. This is so horrible, isn't it? Like who wants this to be true of them? But this is, this is my story and your story that we were dead and it's not a who done it mystery. You know what killed us? Our transgressions, yours and mines our own work. That the minimum wage of sin is death and that your transgressions killed you and that you were in that state.
You were in that state actually from the beginning, from the time that you were born. You were dead and you were dead in your transgressions. That is super bad. I mean, that's the understatement of this entire conversation. It, it's horrible. Uh, I can't think of anything worse. It's true of all us. So is it possible that it could get worse?
It does actually. And you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, that is like you were not just, it would be worse enough that of course, like you the Law of Christ, but you love to do it. That was your jam in your flesh. The flesh that you wanted to embrace, the selfishness that was who you are, apart from Christ, which the Bible tells us is the opposite of being circumcised brought into the family.
You were far away as far away as possible. You were so far out of the government that you were uncircumcised. That's who you were. You were dead. You were dead because of your transgressions, and then you were so far outside of the family of God, there was no hope for you. In your own self, there's nothing you could do to make a way.
There was nothing that you could do to write yourself. You were dead in your transgressions, uncircumcision of your flesh. Sit on that for a second, and you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, Jesus made you alive with him having graciously forgiven us all our transgressions.
So again, this is. Incredible. Not just that you would be forgiven, but that you'd be made alive in Christ. There's this falsity out there somewhere. Again, this is what religion teaches you, teaches us that Jesus came to make bad people good. I mean, that's really what the Pharisees were after in their own lives.
There was their promulgating a system in which what religion does is it's for good people and at best what it can do is make maybe some bad people. Good. But if you're too bad, it's not for you. It's too bad. It's unfortunate, but it's not your thing. It won't work. But what the scripture tells us, what these parables press us with is not that Jesus came to make bad people good, but he came to make dead people alive.
And so what we have here is a clear indication of that, that even in the midst of your, your horrible state, that that state, that it seemed hopeless, that here Jesus God, through Jesus made you alive with him having graciously forgiven all of our transgressions. Then here's the, here's the amazing part as if like, we didn't understand that, and I think like you and Paul here saying like, this should be clear, but I'm gonna double down on this.
I'm gonna use some language that should be abundantly clear to you just how bad things were and then how much freedom you should feel, what your lightness, what the, the bounce in your steps should be like because you were once dead uncircumcised. Now you've been made alive and you've been having everything graciously forgiven in Christ.
Here, here's what it's like having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How? How good is that sentence? Christ in his death canceled out the. Certificate of debt. Again, something that was codified against us.
So other words, it was documented. These were not just, and they weren't just this little statement that said like, it's really bad for you. You owe something. There's something that's been heaped up against you. But they were decrees against us. They were hostile to us. They were literally the thing that was going to kill us for all and separate us from Christ.
That thing, that certificate, he has taken it. Out out of the way, having nailed it to the cross, having disarmed the rulers and authorities, he made public display of them having triumphed over them. So it's this incredible sense that not only has Christ. Taking the certificate, cast it aside, paid for it in full.
But then above and beyond that, he's disarmed the rulers and authorities. He's made a public display of them. He's triumphed over sin, death, and the devil in such a demonstrative and public way to show that he's the ruler of all the world. That he's the promise maker and he's the promise keeper, that he's just, and that he's justifier.
And so Paul says to us, then Christian. How ought you to live? How ought you to behave? Is this not the best news that you could possibly hear? So all of that, I think is literally just the smallest backdrop to leading us into this final parable, this escalation really, of course, the three parables in one about the prodigal son and.
I would admonish you to think on that. This little extra pause that we've had here I think is good because I need to at least to remember that this is what's leading us for Jesus to say, to start with a story that says A man had two sons. You know, after we've talked about sheep. We talked about coins and then he goes, and a man had two sons.
What a beautiful like beginning what? What incredible language, what brilliance, all of this to show us his true heart for us. And I think it's always worthwhile to stop and to pause for a second. And to consider that heart as we make ourselves ready to receive this final and amazing parable.
[00:35:13] Jesse Schwamb: So I hope that you will continue to hang out with us, that you yourself will not take my word for it or Tony's word for it, but you yourself, go to Luke 15 read.
It takes maybe. I dunno, 45 seconds to read all three of these and to spend some time thinking about what it is that Christ has done for us. That we're the lost sheep, we're the lost coin. We're also this lost son, son, daughter, that this was all of our stories. At some point, we can't escape the fact that this really is our biography and.
It hits close to home because we find that when we examine ourselves that we are the ones that were lost in our transgressions and dead. That we are the ones that were un circumcised, but God has made us alive together with Christ. I mean, read, read Colossians two and read Ephesians one, and what you're gonna find is we have every reason to rejoice, and these stories should compel us into.
A life of constant rejoicing for what Christ has done for us. That's the reason for every season. It's the reason for the Christian life, and certainly so much of what we find reflected in reform theology proper. So you know what to do. Come hang out with us on the Telegram chat, continue to process with us alongside of us in conversation with us, these incredible parables, because I do believe there's so much here.
We'll, we're never going to plumb the depths of these, and this is just our feeble attempt. To get us in the right place as we make that final hair point turn into this, that we slow down just a little bit and consider what great thing that Christ has done for us and what God, the Father and the Holy Spirit has wrought in our lives by way of this incredible salvation.
So you know what to do. Come back next week and we'll get after the parable. Of the prodigal. But until you do that, until we chat again and Tony rejoins us safe and strong, and Lord willing, as great as ever, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.
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In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the Parable of the Lost Coin from Luke 15:8-10. They explore how this parable reveals God's passionate pursuit of His elect and the divine joy that erupts when they are found. Building on their previous discussion of the Lost Sheep, the brothers examine how Jesus uses this second parable to further emphasize God's sovereign grace in salvation. The conversation highlights the theological implications of God's ownership of His people even before their redemption, the diligent efforts He undertakes to find them, and the heavenly celebration that follows. This episode offers profound insights into God's relentless love and the true nature of divine joy in redemption.
The Parable of the Lost Coin reveals a profound theological truth about God's relationship to His elect. As Tony and Jesse discuss, this isn't a story about finding something new, but recovering something that already belongs to the owner. The woman in the parable doesn't rejoice because she discovered unexpected treasure; she rejoices because she recovered what was already hers. This illustrates the Reformed understanding that God's people have eternally belonged to Him. While justification occurs in time, there's a real sense in which God has been considering us as His people in eternity past. The parable therefore supports the doctrines of election and particular redemption - God is not creating conditions people can move into or out of, but is zealously reclaiming a specific people who are already His in His eternal decree. The searching, sweeping, and diligent pursuit represent not a general call, but an effectual calling that accomplishes its purpose.
One of the most striking aspects of this parable is the overwhelming joy that accompanies finding the lost coin. The brothers highlight that this joy isn't reluctant or begrudging, but enthusiastic and overflowing. The woman calls her friends and neighbors to celebrate with her - a seemingly excessive response to finding a coin, unless we understand the theological significance. This reveals that God takes genuine delight in the redemption of sinners, to the extent that Jesus describes it as causing joy "in the presence of the angels of God." As Jesse and Tony note, this challenges our perception that God might save us begrudgingly. Instead, the parable teaches us that God's "alien work" is wrath, while His delight is in mercy. This should profoundly impact how believers view their own salvation and should inspire a contagious joy that spreads to others - a joy that many Christians, by Tony's own admission, need to recover in their daily walk.
"Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love." - Jesse Schwamb
"The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace... The reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased, is because God has this real pleasure to pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire." - Jesse Schwamb
"These parables are calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently?" - Tony Arsenal
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found.
The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire.
Welcome to episode 472 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:57] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.
[00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.
[00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: So there was this time, maybe actually more than one time, but at least this one time that we've been looking at where Jesus is hanging out and the religious incumbents, the Pharisees, they come to him and they say, you are a friend of sinners, and.
Instead of taking offense to this, Jesus turns this all around. Uses this as a label, appropriates it for himself and his glorious character. And we know this because he gives us this thrice repeated sense of what it means to see his heart, his volition, his passion, his love, his going after his people, and he does it.
Three little parables and we looked at one last time and we're coming up to round two of the same and similar, but also different and interesting. And so today we're looking at the parable of the lost coin or the Lost dma, or I suppose, whatever kind of currency you wanna insert in there. But once again, something's lost and we're gonna see how our savior comes to find it by way of explaining it.
In metaphor. So there's more things that are lost and more things to be found on this episode. That's how we do it. It's true. It's true. So that's how Jesus does it. So
[00:02:12] Tony Arsenal: yeah. So it should be how we do it.
[00:02:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I cut to like Montel Jordan now is the only thing going through my head. Tell Jordan.
Yeah. Isn't he the one that's like, this is how we do it, that song, this is
[00:02:28] Tony Arsenal: how we do it. I, I don't know who sings it. Apparently it's me right now. That was actually really good. That was fantastic.
[00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Hopefully never auto tuned. Not even once. I'm sure that'll make an appearance now and the rest, somebody
[00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: should take that and auto tune it for me.
[00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: That would be fantastic. Listen, it doesn't need it. That was perfect. That was right off the cuff, right off the top. It was beautiful. It was ous.
[00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes.
[00:02:51] Jesse Schwamb: I'm hoping that appearance,
[00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: before we jump into our, our favorite segment here in affirmations of Denials, I just wanted to take a second to, uh, thank all of our listeners.
Uh, we have the best listeners in the world. That's true, and we've also got a really great place to get together and chat about things. That's also true. Uh, we have a little telegram chat, which is just a little chat, um, program that run on your phone or in a browser. Really any device you have, you can go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood and join that, uh, little chat group.
And there's lots of stuff going on there. We don't need to get into all the details, but it's a friendly little place. Lots of good people, lots of good conversation. And just lots of good digital fellowship, if that's even a thing. I think it is. So please do join us there. It's a great place to discuss, uh, the episodes or what you're learning or what you'd like to learn.
There's all sorts of, uh, little nooks and crannies and things to do in there.
[00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: So if you're looking for a little df and you know that you are coming out, we won't get into details, but you definitely should. Take Tony's advice, please. You, you will not be disappointed. It, it's a fun, fun time together. True.
Just like you're about to have with us chatting it up and going through a little affirmations and denials. So, as usual, Tony, what are you, are you affirming with something or are you denying again, something? I'm, I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm ready.
[00:04:06] Tony Arsenal: Okay. Uh, it is, I thought that was going somewhere else.
Uh, I'm, I'm affirming something.
[00:04:13] Tony Arsenal: People are gonna get so sick of me doing like AI affirmations, but I, it's like I learned a new thing to do with AI every couple of weeks. I ran across an article the other day, uh, that I don't remember where the article was. I didn't save it, but I did read it. And one of the things that pointed out is that a lot of times you're not getting the most out of AI because you don't really know how to ask the questions.
True. One of the things it was was getting through is a lot of people will ask, they'll have a problem that they're encountering and they'll just ask AI like, how do I fix this problem? And a lot of times what that yields is like very superficial, basic, uh, generic advice or generic kind of, uh, directions for resolving a problem.
And the, I don't remember the exact phrasing, 'cause it was a little while ago since I read it, but it basically said something like, I'm encountering X problem. And despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to resolve it. And by using sort of these extra phrases. What it does is it sort of like pushes the AI to ask you questions about what you've already tried to do, and so it's gonna tailor its advice or its directions to your specific situation a little bit more.
So, for example, I was doing this today. We, um, we just had the time change, right? Stupidest thing in the world doesn't make any sense and my kids don't understand that the time has changed and we're now like three or four weeks past the, the time change and their, their schedule still have not adjusted.
So my son Augie, who is uh, like three and three quarters, uh, I don't know how many months it is. When do you stop? I don't even know. When you stop counting in months. He's three and a quarter, three quarters. And he will regularly wake up between four 30 and five 30. And when we really, what we really want is for him to be sleeping, uh, from uh, until like six or six 30 at the latest.
So he's like a full hour, sometimes two hours ahead of time, which then he wakes up, it's a small house. He's noisy 'cause he's a three and a half year old. So he wakes up the baby. The baby wakes up. My wife, and then we're all awake and then we're cranky and it's miserable. So I, I put that little prompt into, um, into Google Gemini, which is right now is my, um, AI of choice, but works very similar.
If you use something like chat, GPT or CLO or whatever, you know, grok, whatever AI tool you have access to, put that little prompt in. You know, something like since the time change, my son has been waking up at four 30 in the morning, despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to, uh, adjust his schedule.
And so it started asking me questions like, how much light is in the room? What time does he go to bed? How much does he nap? And it, so it's, it's pulling from the internet. This is why I like Google Geminis. It's actually pulling from the internet to identify like common, common. Related issues. And so it starts to probe and ask questions.
And by the time it was done, what it came out with was like a step-by-step two week plan. Basically like, do this tonight, do this tomorrow morning. Um, and it was able to identify what it believes is the problem. We'll see if it actually is, but the beauty now is now that I've got a plan that I've got in this ai, I can start, you know, tomorrow morning I'm gonna try to do what it said and I can tell.
The ai, how things went, and it can now adjust the plan based on whether or not, you know, this worked or didn't work. So it's a good way to sort of, um, push an ai, uh, chat bot to probe your situation a little bit more. So you could do this really for anything, right. You could do something like I'm having, I'm having trouble losing weight despite all efforts to the contrary.
Um, can you help me identify what the, you know, root problem is? So think about different ways that you can use this. It's a pretty cool way to sort of like, push the, the AI to get a little deeper into the specifics without like a lot of extra heavy lifting. I'm sure there's probably other ways you could drive it to do this, but this was just one clever way that I, that this article pointed out to accomplish this.
[00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a great exercise to have AI optimize itself. Yeah. By you turning your prompts around and asking it to ask you a number of questions, sufficient number, until it can provide an optimize answer for you. So lots, almost every bot has some kind of, you can have it analyze your prompts essentially, but some like copilot actually have a prompt agent, which will help you construct the prompt in an optimal way.
Yeah, and that again, is kind of question and answer. So I'm with you. I will often turn it around and say. Here's my goal. Ask me sufficient number of questions so that you can provide the right insight to accomplish said goal. Or like you're saying, if you can create this like, massive conversation that keeps all this history.
So I, I've heard of people using this for their exercise or running plans. Famously, somebody a, a, um, journalist, the Wall Street Journal, use it, train for a marathon. You can almost have it do anything for you. Of course, you want to test all of that and interact with it reasonably and ably, right? At the same time, what it does best is respond to like natural language interaction.
And so by turning it around and basically saying, help me help you do the best job possible, providing the information, it's like the weirdest way of querying stuff because we're so used to providing explicit direction ourselves, right? So to turn it around, it's kind of a new experience, but it's super fun, really interesting, really effective.
[00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: And it because you are allowing, in a certain sense, you're sort of asking the AI to drive the conversation. This, this particular prompt, I know the article I read went into details about why this prompt is powerful and the reason this prompt is powerful is not because of anything the AI's doing necessarily, right.
It's because you're basically telling the AI. To find what you've missed. And so it's asking you questions. Like if I was to sit down and go like, all right, what are all the things that's wrong, that's causing my son to be awake? Like obviously I didn't figure it out on my own, so it's asking me what I've already tried and what it found out.
And then of course when it tells me what it is, it's like the most obvious thing when it figures out what it is. It's identifying something that I already haven't identified because I've told it. I've already tried everything I can think of, and so it's prompting me to try to figure out what it is that I haven't thought of.
So those are, like I said, there's lots of ways to sort of get the ais to do that exercise. Um, it's not, it's not just about prompt engineering, although that there's a lot of science now and a lot of like. Specifics on how you do prompt engineering, um, you know, like building a persona for the ai. Like there's all sorts of things you can do and you can add that, like, I could have said something like, um.
Uh, you are a pediatric sleep expert, right? And when you tell it that what it's gonna do is it's gonna start to use more technical language, it's gonna, it's gonna speak to you back as though it's a, and this, this is where AI can get a little bit dangerous and really downright scary in some instances.
But with that particular prompt, it's gonna start to speak back to you as though it was a clinician of some sort, diagnosing a medical situation, which again. That is definitely not something I would ever endorse. Like, don't let an AI be your doctor. That's just not, like WebMD was already scary enough when you were just telling you what your symptoms were and it was just cross checking it.
Um, but you could do something like, and I use these kinds of prompts for our show notes where I'm like, you're an expert at SEO, like at um, podcast show notes. Utilizing SEO search terms, like that's part of the prompt that I use when I use, um, in, in this case, I use notion to generate most of our show notes.
Um, it, it starts to change the way that it looks at things and the way that it, I, it responds to you based on different prompts. So I think it, it's a little bit scary, uh, AI. Can be a strange, strange place. And there's some, they're doing some research that is a little bit frightening. They did a study and actually, like, they, they basically like unlocked an AI and gave it access to a pretend company with emails and stuff and said that a particular employee was gonna shut out, was gonna delete the ai.
And the first thing it did was try to like blackmail the employee with like a risk, like a scandalous email. It had. Then after that they, they engineered a scenario where the AI actually had the ability to kill the employee. And despite like explicit instructions not to do anything illegal, it still tried to kill the employee.
So there's some scary things that are coming up if we're not, you know, if, if the science is not able to get that under control. But right now it's just a lot of fun. Like it's, we're, we're probably not at the point where it's dangerous yet and hopefully. Hopefully it won't get to that point, but we'll see.
We'll see. That got dark real fast, fast, fast. Jesse, you gotta get this. And that was an affirmation. I guess I'm affirming killer murder ais that are gonna kill us all, but uh, we're gonna have fun with it until they do at least.
[00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: Thanks for not making that deny against. 'cause I can only imagine the direction that one to taken.
[00:12:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. At least when the AI hears this, it's gonna know that I'm on its side, so, oh, for sure. I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords. So as do Iye.
[00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: But Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today to get me out of this pit here?
[00:13:09] Jesse Schwamb: So, lemme start with a question. Do you have a favorite Christmas hymn? And if so, what is it?
[00:13:16] Tony Arsenal: Ooh, that's a tough one. Um, I think I've always been really partial to Oh, holy Night. But, uh, there's, there's not anything that really jumps to mind my, as I've become older and crankier and more Scottish in spirit, I just, Christmas hymns just aren't as. If they're not as prominent in my mind, but oh, holy night or come coming, Emanuel is probably a really good one too.
[00:13:38] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. Those are the, those are like the top in the top three for me. Yeah. So I think
[00:13:42] Tony Arsenal: I know where you're going based on the question.
[00:13:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're very much the same. So, well maybe, so I am affirming with, but it's that time of year and people you, you know and love and maybe yourself, you're gonna listen to Christian music and.
That's okay. I put no shade on that, especially because we're talking about the incarnation, celebrate the incarnation. But of course, I think the best version of that is some of these really lovely hymns because they could be sung and worshiped through all year round. We just choose them because they fit in with the calendar particularly well here, and sometimes they're included, their lyrics included in Hallmark cards and, and your local.
Cool. Coles. So while that's happening, why not embrace it? But here's my information is why not go with some different versions. I love the hymn as you just said. Oh, come will come Emmanuel. And so I'm gonna give people three versions of it to listen to Now to make my list of this kind of repertoire. The song's gotta maintain that traditional melody.
I think to a strong degree, it's gotta be rich and deep and dark, especially Ko Emmanuel. But it's gotta have something in it that's a little bit nuanced. Different creative arrangements, musicality. So let me give two brand new ones that you may not have heard versions and one old one. So the old one is by, these are all Ko Emanuel.
So if at some point during this you're like, what song is he talking about? It's Ko. Emmanuel. It's just three times. Th we're keeping it th Rice tonight. So the first is by band called for today. That's gonna be a, a little bit harder if you want something that, uh, gets you kind of pumped up in the midst of this redemption.
That's gonna be the version. And then there are two brand new ones. One is by skillet, which is just been making music forever, but the piano melody they bring into this and they do a little something nuanced with the chorus that doesn't pull away too much. From the original, but just gives it a little extra like Tastiness.
Yeah. Skill. Great version. And then another one that just came out yesterday. My yesterday, not your yesterday. So actually it doesn't even matter at this point. It's already out is by descriptor. And this would be like the most chill version that is a hardcore band by, I would say tradition, but in this case, their version is very chill.
All of them I find are just deeply worshipful. Yeah. And these, the music is very full of impact, but of course the lyrics are glorious. I really love this, this crying out to God for the Savior. This. You know, just, it's really the, the plea that we should have now, which is, you know, maranatha like Lord Jesus, come.
And so in some ways we're, we're celebrating that initial plea and cry for redemption as it has been applied onto us by the Holy Spirit. And we're also saying, you know, come and fulfill your kingdom, Lord, come and bring the full promise, which is here, but not yet. So I like all three of these. So for today.
Skillet descriptor, which sounds like we're playing like a weird word game when you put those all together. It does, but they're all great bands and their versions I think are, are worthy. So the larger affirmation, I suppose, is like, go out this season and find different versions, like mix it up a little bit.
Because it's good to hear this music somewhat afresh, and so I think by coming to it with different versions of it, you'll get a little bit of that sense. It'll make maybe what is, maybe if it's felt rote or mundane or just trivial, like you're saying, kind of revive some of these pieces in our hearts so we can, we, we can really worship through them.
We're redeeming them even as they're meant to be expressions of the ultimate redemption.
[00:16:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, um, I heard the skillet version and, uh, you know, you know me like I'm not a huge fan of harder music. Yeah. But that, that song Slaps man, it's, yes,
[00:17:07] Jesse Schwamb: it does. It's
[00:17:07] Tony Arsenal: good. And Al I mean, it, it also ignited this weird firestorm of craziness online.
I don't know if you heard anything about this, but Yes, it was, it was, there was like the people who absolutely love it and will. Fight you if you don't. Yes. And then there was like the people who think it's straight from the devil because of somehow demonic rhythms, whatever that means. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm not a big fan of the heavier music, but there is something about that sort of, uh.
I don't know. Is skill, would that be considered like metal at all?
[00:17:38] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's a loaded question. Probably.
[00:17:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So like I found, uh, this is, we're gonna go down to Rabbit Trail here. Let's do it. Here we go. I found a version of Africa by Toto that was labeled as metal on YouTube. So I don't know whether it actually is, and this, this version of skill, it strikes me as very similar, where it's, ah, uh, it, it's like, um.
The harmonies are slightly different in terms of like how they resonate than Okay. Other harmonies. Like I get
[00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: that
[00:18:06] Tony Arsenal: there's a certain, you know, like when you think about like Western music, there's certain right, there's certain harmonies when, you know, think about like piano chords are framed and my understanding at least this could be way off, and I'm sure you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong, is that um, metal music, heavy metal music uses slightly different.
Chord formations that it almost leaves you feeling a little unresolved. Yes, but not quite unresolved. Like it's just, it's, it's more the harmonics are different, so that's fair. Skillet. This skillet song is so good, and I think you're right. It, it retains the sort of like. The same basic melody, the same, the same basic harmonies, actually.
Right. And it's, it's almost like the harmonies are just close enough to being put into a different key with the harmonies. Yes,
[00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: that's true
[00:18:53] Tony Arsenal: than then. Uh, but not quite actually going into another key. So like, sometimes you'll see online, you'll find YouTube videos where they play like pop songs, but they've changed the, the.
Chords a little bit. So now it's in a minor key. It's almost like it's there. It's like one more little note shift and it would be there. Um, and then there's some interesting, uh, like repetition and almost some like anal singing going on, that it's very good. Even if you don't like heavier music. Like, like I don't, um, go listen to it and I think you'll find yourself like hitting repeat a couple times.
It was very, very good.
[00:19:25] Jesse Schwamb: That's a good way of saying it. A lot of times that style is a little bit dissonant, if that's what you mean in the court. Yeah. Formation. So it gives you this unsettledness, this almost unresolvedness, and that's in there. Yeah. And just so everybody knows, actually, if you listen to that version from Skillet, you'll probably listen to most of it.
You'll get about two thirds of the way through it and probably be saying, what are those guys talking about? It's the breakdown. Where it amps up. But before that, I think anybody could listen to it and just enjoy it. It's a really beautiful, almost haunting piano melody. They bring into the intro in that, in the interlude.
It's very lovely. So it gives you that sense. Again, I love this kind of music because there's almost something, there is something in this song that's longing for something that is wanting and yet left, unresolved and unfulfilled until the savior comes. There's almost a lament in it, so to speak, especially with like the way it's orchestrated.
So I love that this hymn is like deep and rich in that way. It's, that's fine. Like if you want to sing deck the Holes, that's totally fine. This is just, I think, better and rich and deeper and more interesting because it does speak to this life of looking for and waiting for anticipating the advent of the savior.
So to get me get put back in that place by music, I think is like a net gain this time of year. It's good to have that perspective. I'm, I'm glad you've heard it. We should just open that debate up whether or not we come hang out in the telegram chat. We'll put it in that debate. Is skillet hardcore or metal?
We'll just leave it there 'cause I have my opinions, but I'm, well, I'm sure everybody else does.
[00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: I don't even know what those words mean, Jesse. Everything is hardcore in metal compared to what I normally listen to. I don't even listen to music anymore usually, so I, I mean, I'm like mostly all podcasts all the time.
Anytime I have time, I don't have a ton of time to listen to. Um, audio stuff, but
[00:21:06] Jesse Schwamb: that's totally fair. Well now everybody now join us though.
[00:21:08] Tony Arsenal: Educate me
[00:21:09] Jesse Schwamb: now. Everybody can properly use, IM prompt whatever AI of their choice, and they can listen to at least three different versions of al comical manual. And then they can tell us which one do you like the best?
Or maybe you have your own version. That's what she was saying. What's your favorite Christmas in?
[00:21:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And
[00:21:24] Jesse Schwamb: what version of it do you like? I mean, it'll be like.
[00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: It'll be like, despite my best efforts, I've been un unable to understand what hardcore and medical is. Please help me understand.
[00:21:37] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, we're gonna have some, some fun with this at some point.
We'll have to get into the whole debate, though. I know you and I have talked about it before. We'll put it before the brothers and sisters about a Christmas Carol and what version everybody else likes. That's also seems like, aside from the, the whole eternal debate, which I'm not sure is really serious about whether or not diehard is a Christmas movie, this idea of like, which version of the Christmas Carol do you subscribe to?
Yeah. Which one would you watch if you can only watch one? Which one will you watch? That's, we'll have to save that for another time.
[00:22:06] Tony Arsenal: We'll save it for another time. And we get a little closer to midwinter. No reason we just can't
[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: do it right now because we gotta get to Luke 15.
[00:22:12] Tony Arsenal: We do.
[00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've already been in this place of looking at Jesus' response to the Pharisees when they say to him, listen, this man receives sinners and eats with them.
And Jesus is basically like, yeah, that's right. And let me tell you three times what the heart of God is like and what my mission in serving him is like, and what I desire to come to do for my children. And so we spoke in the last conversation about the parable lost sheep. Go check that out. Some are saying, I mean, I'm not saying this, but some are saying in the internet, it's the definitive.
Congratulation of that parable. I'm, I'm happy to take that if that's true. Um, but we wanna go on to this parable of the lost coin. So let me read, it's just a couple of verses and you're gonna hear in the text that you're going to understand right away. This is being linked because it starts with or, so this is Jesus speaking and this is Luke 15, chapter 15, starting in verse eight.
Jesus says, or a what woman? She has 10 D drachmas and loses. One drachma does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it. And when she has found it, she calls together her friend and her neighbors saying, rejoice with me for I found the D Drachma, which I lost in the same way I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.
[00:23:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. On one level, this is, uh, again, it's not all that complicated of a scenario, right? And we have to kind of go back and relo through some of the stuff we talked about last week because this is a continuation of, you know, when we first talked about the Matthew 13 parables, we commented on like.
Christ was coming back to the same themes, right? And in some ways, repeating the parable. This is even stronger than that. It's not just that Christ is teaching the same thing across multiple parables. The sense here, at least the sense I get when I read this parable, the lost sheep, and then the prodigal, um, sun parable or, or the next parable here, um, is actually that Christ is just sort of like hammering home the one point he's making to the tax collectors and or to the tax collectors or to the scribes who are complaining about the fact that Christ was eating with sinners.
He's just hammering this point home, right? So it's not, it's not to try to add. A lot of nuance to the point. It's not to try to add a, a shade of meaning. Um. You know, we talked a lot about how parables, um, Christ tells parables in part to condemn the listeners who will not receive him, right? That's right.
This is one of those situations where it's not, it's not hiding the meaning of the parable from them. The meaning is so obvious that you couldn't miss it, and he, he appeals, we talked about in the first, in the first part of this, he actually appeals to like what the ordinary response would be. Right? What man of you having a hundred sheep if he loses one, does not.
Go and leave the 99. Like it's a scenario that anyone who goes, well, like, I wouldn't do that is, looks like an idiot. Like, that's, that's the point of the why. He phrases it. And so then you're right when he, when he begins with this, he says, or what woman having 10 silver coins if she loses one, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until he, till she finds it.
And of course, the, the, the emphasis again is like no one in their right mind would not do this. And I think like we think about a coin and like that's the smallest denomination of money that we have. Like, I wouldn't, like if I lost a, if I had 10 silver coin, 10 coins and I lost one of them, the most that that could be is what?
50 cents? Like the, like if I had a 50 cent piece or a silver dollar, I guess, like I could lose a dollar. We're not really talking about coins the way we think of coins, right? We're talking about, um. Um, you know, like denominations of money that are substantial in that timeframe. Like it, there was, there were small coins, but a silver coin would be a substantial amount of money to lose.
So we are not talking about a situation where this is, uh, a trivial kind of thing. She's not looking for, you know, I've, I've heard this parable sort of like unpacked where like, it's almost like a miserly seeking for like this lost coin. Interesting. It's not about, it's not about like. Penny pinching here, right?
She's not trying to find a tiny penny that isn't worth anything that's built into the parable, right? It's a silver coin. It's not just any coin. It's a silver coin. So she's, she's looking for this coin, um, because it is a significant amount of money and because she's lost it, she's lost something of her, of her overall wealth.
Like there's a real loss. Two, this that needs to be felt before he can really move on with the parable. It's not just like some small piece of property, like there's a
[00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: right. I
[00:26:57] Tony Arsenal: don't know if you've ever lost a large amount of money, but I remember one time I was in, um, a. I was like, almost outta high school, and I had taken some money out of, um, out of the bank, some cash to make a purchase.
I think I was purchasing a laptop and I don't know why I, I don't, maybe I didn't have a credit card or I didn't have a debit card, but I was purchasing a laptop with cash. Right. And back then, like laptops, like this was not a super expensive laptop, but. It was a substantial amount of cash and I misplaced it and it was like, oh no, like, where is it?
And like, I went crazy trying to find it. This is the situation. She's lost a substantial amount of money. Um, this parable, unlike the last one, doesn't give you a relative amount of how many she has. Otherwise. She's just lost a significant amount of money. So she takes all these different steps to try to find it.
[00:27:44] Tony Arsenal: We have to feel that loss before we really can grasp what the parable is trying to teach us.
[00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: I like that, so I'm glad you brought that up because I ended up going down a rabbit hole with this whole coined situation.
[00:27:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, we're about to, Matt Whitman some of this, aren't we?
[00:27:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, I think so. But mainly because, and this is not really my own ideas here, there's, there's a lot I was able to kind of just read and kind.
Throw, throw something around this because I think you're absolutely right that Jesus is bringing an ES escalation here and it's almost like a little bit easier for us to understand the whole sheep thing. I think the context of the lost coin, like you're already saying, is a little bit less familiar to us, and so I got into this.
Rabbit hole over the question, why would this woman have 10 silver coins? I really got stuck on like, so why does she have these? And Jesus specific about that he's giving a particular context. Presumably those within his hearing in earshot understood this context far better than I did. So what I was surprised to see is that a lot of commentators you probably run into this, have stated or I guess promulgated this idea that the woman is young and unmarried and the 10 silver coins could.
Could represent a dowry. So in some way here too, like it's not just a lot of money, it's possible that this was her saving up and it was a witness to her availability for marriage.
[00:28:57] Jesse Schwamb: So e either way, if that's true or not, Jesus is really emphasizing to us there's significant and severe loss here. And so just like you said, it would be a fool who would just like say, oh, well that's too bad.
The coin is probably in here somewhere, but eh, I'm just gonna go about my normal business. Yeah. And forsake it. Like, let's, let's not worry about it. So. The emphasis then on this one is not so much like the leaving behind presumably can keep the remaining nine coins somewhere safe if you had them. But this effort and this diligence to, to go after and find this lost one.
So again, we know it's all about finding what was lost, but this kind of momentum that Jesus is bringing to this, like the severity of this by saying there was this woman, and of course like here we find that part of this parable isn't just in the, the kingdom of God's like this, like we were talking about before.
It's more than that because there's this expression of, again, the situation combined with these active verbs. I think we talked about last time that Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love.
Like in the first case, the shepherd brought his sheep home on his shoulders rather than leave it in the wilderness. And then here. The woman does like everything. She lights the candle, she sweeps the house. She basically turns the thing, the place upside down, searching diligently and spared no pains with this until she found her lost money.
And before we get into the whole rejoicing thing, it just strikes me that, you know, in the same way, I think what we have here is Christ affirming that he didn't spare himself. He's not gonna spare himself. When he undertakes to save sinners, he does all the things. He endures the cross scor in shame. He lays down his life for his friends.
There's no greater love than that. It cannot be shown, and so Christ's love is deep and mighty. It's like this woman doing all the things, tearing the place apart to ensure that that which she knew she had misplaced comes back to her. That the full value of everything that she knows is hers. Is safe and secure in her possession and so does the Lord Jesus rejoice the safe sinners in the same way.
And that's where this is incredibly powerful. It's not just, Hey, let me just say it to you one more time. There is a reemphasis here, but I like where you're going, this re-escalation. I think the first question is, why do the woman have this money? What purpose is it serving? And I think if we can at least try to appreciate some of that, then we see again how Jesus is going after that, which is that he, he wants to save the sinner.
He wants to save the soul. And all of the pleasure, then all of the rejoicing comes because, and, and as a result of that context.
[00:31:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:23] Tony Arsenal: The other thing, um, maybe, and, and I hope I'm not overreading again, we've, we've talked about the dangers of overreading, the parables, but I think there's a, and we'll, we'll come to this too when we get into the, um, prodigal son.
Um, there is this sense, I think in some theological traditions that. God is sort of like claiming a people who were not his own. Right. And one of the things that I love about the reform tradition, and, and I love it because this is the picture the Bible teaches, is the emphasis on the fact that God's people have been God's people.
As long as God has been pondering and con like contemplating them. So like we deny eternal justification, right? Justification happens in time and there's a real change in our status, in in time when, when the spirit applies, the benefits that Christ has purchased for us in redemption, right? But there's also a very real sense that God has been looking and considering us as his people in eternity past.
Like that's always. That's the nature of the Pactum salutes, the, you know, covenant of redemption election. The idea that like God is not saving a nameless, faceless people. He's not creating conditions that people can either move themselves into or take themselves out of. He has a concrete people. Who he is saving, who he has chosen.
He, he, you know, prior to our birth, he will redeem us. He now, he has redeemed us and he will preserve us in all of these parables, whether it's the sheep, the coin, or as we'll get to the prodigal sun next week or, or whenever. Um. It's not that God is discovering something new that he didn't have, or it's not that the woman is discovering a coin, right?
There's nothing more, uh, I think nothing more like sort of, uh, spontaneously delightful than like when you like buy a, like a jacket at the thrift store. Like you go to Salvation Army and you buy a jacket, you get home, you reach in the pocket and there's like a $10 bill and you're like, oh man, that's so, so great.
Or like, you find a, you find a. A $10 bill on the ground, or you find a quarter on the ground, right? Yeah. Or you find your own money. Well, and that that's, there's a different kind of joy, right? That's the point, is like, there's a delight that comes with finding something. And again, like we have to be careful about like, like not stealing, right?
But there's a different kind of joy that comes with like finding something that was not yours that now becomes yours. We talked about that with parables a couple weeks ago, right? There's a guy who finds it, he's, he's searching for pearls. He finds a pearl, and so he goes after he sells everything he has and he claims that pearl, but that wasn't his before the delight was in sort of finding something new.
These parables. The delight is in reclaiming and refining something that was yours that was once lost. Right? That's a different thing. And it paints a picture, a different picture of God than the other parables where, you know, the man kind of stumbles on treasure in a field or he finds a pearl that he was searching for, but it wasn't his pearl.
This is different. This is teaching us that God is, is zealous and jealous to reclaim that which was his, which was lost. Yes. Right. So, you know, we can get, we can, maybe we will next week, maybe we will dig into like super laps area versus infra laps. AIRism probably not, I don't necessarily wanna have that conversation.
But there is a reality in the Bible where God has a chosen people and they are his people, even before he redeems them.
[00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.
[00:34:53] Tony Arsenal: These parables all emphasize that in a different way and part of what he's, part of what he's ribbing at with the Pharisees and the, and the scribes, and this is common across all of Christ's teaching in his interactions and we get into true Israel with, with Paul, I mean this is the consistent testimony of the New Testament, is that the people who thought they were God's people.
The, the Jewish leaders, especially the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the, the sort of elites of, uh, first century Jewish believers, they really were convinced that they were God's people. And those dirty gentiles out there, they, they're not, and even in certain sense, like even the Jewish people out in the country who don't even, you know, they don't know the scriptures that like, even those people were maybe barely God's people.
Christ is coming in here and he is going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like you're asking me. You're surprised that I receive sinners and e with them. Well, I'm coming to claim that which is mine, which was lost, and the right response to that is not to turn your nose up at it. The right response is to rejoice with me that I have found my sheep that was lost, that I have reclaimed my coin that was lost.
And as we'll see later on, like he really needles them at the end of the, the, uh, parable of the prodigal son. This is something I, I have to be like intentional in my own life because I think sometimes we hear conversion stories and we have this sort of, I, I guess like, we'll call it like the, the Jonah I heresy, I dunno, we won't call it heresy, but like the, the, the like Jonah impulse that we all have to be really thankful for God's mercy in our life.
But sort of question whether God is. Merciful or even be a little bit upset when it seems that God is being merciful to those sinners over there. We have to really like, use these parables in our own lives to pound that out of our system because it's, it's ungodly and it's not what God is, is calling us.
And these parables really speak against that
[00:36:52] Jesse Schwamb: and all of us speak in. In that lost state, but that doesn't, I think like you're saying, mean that we are not God's already. That if he has established that from a trinity past, then we'd expect what others have said about God as the hound of heaven to be true.
And that is he comes and he chases down his own. What's interesting to me is exactly what you've said. We often recognize when we do this in reverse and we look at the parable of the lost son, all of these elements, how the father comes after him, how there's a cha singer coming to himself. There's this grand act of repentance.
I would argue all of that is in all of these parables. Not, not to a lesser extent, just to a different extent, but it's all there. So in terms of like couching this, and I think what we might use is like traditionally reformed language. And I, I don't want to say I'm overeating this, I hope I'm not at that same risk, but we see some of this like toll depravity and like the sinner is lost, unable to move forward, right?
There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. There is. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found.
The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. Yeah, it's in a slightly different way, but I think that's what we're meant to like take away from this. We're meant to lean into that a bit.
[00:38:12] Jesse Schwamb: And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure.
Jesus has this real pleasure. The Holy Spirit has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. You know, it was Jesus, literally his food and drink like not to be too trite, but like his jam went upon the earth to finish the work, which he came to do. And there are many times when he says he ammi of being constrained in the spirit until this was accomplished.
And it's still his delight to show mercy like you're saying He is. And even Jonah recognizes that, right. He said like, I knew you were going to be a merciful God. And so he's far more willing to save sinners than sinners are to be saved. But that is the gospel level voice, isn't it? Because we can come kicking and screaming, but in God's great mercy, not because of works and unrighteousness, but because of his great mercy, he comes and he tears everything apart to rescue and to save those whom he's called to himself.
[00:39:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I love that old, um, Puritan phrase that wrath is God's alien work. And we, you know, like you gotta be careful when you start to talk that way. And the Puritans were definitely careful about everything. I mean, they were very specific when they spoke, but. When we talk about God's alien work and wrath being God's alien work, what we're saying is not, not that like somehow wrath is external to God.
Like that's not what we're getting at of Right. But when you look at scripture and, and here's something that I think, um. I, I don't know how I wanna say this. Like, I think we read that the road is narrow and the the, um, you know, few are those who find it. I think we read that and we somehow think like, yeah, God, God, like, really loves that.
Not a lot of people are saved. And I, I actually think that like, when we look at it, um, and, and again, like we have to be careful 'cause God, God. God decreed that which he is delighted by, and also that which glorifies him the most. Right? Right. But the picture that we get in scripture, and we have to take this seriously with all of the caveats that it's accommodated, it's anthropopathism that, you know, all of, all of the stuff we've talked about.
We did a whole series on systematic theology. We did like six episodes on Divine Simplicity and immutability. Like we we're, we're right in line with the historic tradition on that. All of those caveats, uh, all of those caveats in place, the Bible pic paints a picture of God such that he grieves over.
Those who are lost. Right? Right. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. That's right. He, he, he seeks after the lost and he rejoices when he finds them. Right. He's, his, his Holy Spirit is grieved when we disobey him, his, his anger is kindled even towards his people in a paternal sense. Right. He disciplines us the way an angry father who loves us, would discipline us when we disobey him.
That is a real, that's a real thing. What exactly that means, how we can apply that to God is a very complicated conversation. And maybe sometimes it's more complicated than we, like, we make it more complicated than it needs to be for sure. Um, we wanna be careful to preserve God's changeness, his immutability, his simplicity, all of those things.
But at the end of the day, at. God grieves over lost sinners, and he rejoices when they come back. He rejoices when they return to him. Just as the shepherd who finds his lost sheep puts that sheep on his shoulders, right? That's not just because that's an easy way to carry a sheep, right? It's also like this picture of this loving.
Intimate situation where God pulls us onto himself and he, he wraps literally like wraps us around himself. Like there are times when, um. You know, I have a toddler and there are times where I have to carry that toddler, and it's, it's a fight, right? And I don't really enjoy doing it. He's squirming, he's fighting.
Then there are times where he needs me to hold him tight, and he, he snuggles in. When he falls down and hurts his leg, the first thing he does is he runs and he jumps on me, and he wants to be held tight, and there's a f there's a fatherly embrace there that not only brings comfort to my son. But it brings great joy to me to be able to comfort him that that dynamic in a, uh, a infinitely greater sense is at play here in the lost sheep.
And then there's this rejoicing. It's not just rejoicing that God is rejoicing, it's the angels that are rejoicing.
[00:42:43] Tony Arsenal: It's the, it's other Christians. It's the great cloud of witnesses that are rejoicing when Aah sinner is returned to God. All of God's kingdom and everything that that includes, all of that is involved in this rejoicing.
That's why I think like in the first parable, in the parable of the lost sheep, it's joy in heaven. Right? It's sort of general joy in heaven. It's not specific. Then this one is even more specific. It's not just general joy in heaven. It's the angels of God. That's right. That are rejoicing. And then I think what we're gonna find, and we'll we'll tease this out when we get to the next par, well the figure in the prodigal son that is rejoicing.
The one that is leading the rejoicing, the chief rejoice is the one who's the standin for God in that parable.
[00:43:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right, exactly right. So,
[00:43:27] Tony Arsenal: so we have to, we have to both recognize that there's a true grief. A true sorrow that is appropriate to speak of God, um, as having when a sinner is lost. And there's also an equally appropriate way to speak about God rejoicing and being pleased and delighted when a sinner returns to him.
[00:43:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's the real payoff of this whole parable. I think, uh, maybe all three of them altogether, is that it is shocking how good the gospel is, which we're always saying, yeah, but I'm really always being moved, especially these last couple weeks with what Jesus is saying about how good, how truly unbelievable the gospel is.
And again, it draws us to the. Old Testament scriptures when even the Israel saying, who is like this? Who is like our God? So what's remarkable about this is that there's an infinite willingness on God's part to receive sinners.
[00:44:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:44:23] Jesse Schwamb: And however wicked a man may have been, and the day that he really turns from his wickedness and comes to God by Christ, God is well pleased and all of heaven with him, and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, like you said, but God has pleasure and true repentance.
If all of that's true, then like day to day, here's what I, I think this means for us.
[00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: Is when we come to Christ for mercy and love and help and whatever anguish and perplexity and simpleness that we all have, and we all have it, we are going with the flow. If his own deepest wishes, we're not going against them.
And so this means that God has for us when we partake in the toning work of Christ, coming to Christ for forgiveness, communing with him despite our sinfulness, that we are laying hold of Christ's own deepest longing and joy.
[00:45:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And
[00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: Jesus is comforted when we draw near the riches of his atoning work because as his body, even his own body in a way is being healed in this process.
And so we, along with it, that I think is the payoff here. That's what's just so remarkable is that not only, like you're saying, is all heaven kind of paying attention to this. Like they're cognizant of it. It's something worthy of their attention and their energies and their rejoicing. But again, it's showing that God is doing all of this work and so he keeps calling us and calling us and calling us over and over again and just like you said, the elect sinner, those estr belongs to God and his eternal purpose.
Even that by itself, we could just say full stop. Shut it down end the podcast. Yeah. That's just worthy to, to rejoice and, and ponder. But this is how strong I think we see like per election in particular, redemption in these passages. Christ died for his chief specifically crisis going after the lost coin, which already belongs to him.
So like you were saying, Tony, when you know, or maybe you don't know, but you've misplaced some kind of money and you put your hand in that pocket of that winter coat for the first time that season and out comes the piece of paper, that's whatever, 20 or whatever, you rejoice in that, right. Right. It's like this was mine.
I knew it was somewhere, it belonged to me, except that what's even better here is this woman tears her whole place apart to go after this one coin that she knows is hers and yet has been lost. I don't know what more it is to be said. I just cannot under emphasize. Or overemphasize how great God's love is in this like amazing condescension, so that when Jesus describes himself as being gentle and lowly or gentle and humble or gentle and humiliated, that I, I think as we understand the biblical text, it's not necessarily just that he's saying, well, I'm, I'm displaying.
Meekness power under control. When he says he's humble, he means put in this incredibly lowly state. Yeah. That the rescue mission, like you're saying, involves not just like, Hey, she lemme call you back. Hey, come over here, says uh. He goes and he picks it up. It's the ultimate rescue, picks it up and takes it back by his own volition, sacrificing everything or to do that and so does this woman in this particular instance, and it should lead us.
I think back to there's this virtuous cycle of seeing this, experiencing this. Being compelled by the law of Christ, as Paul says, by the power of the Holy Spirit and being regenerated and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping. Because in the midst of that repentance and that beautifulness recognizing, as Isaiah says, all of these idols that we set up, that we run to, the one thing they cannot do for us is they cannot deal with sin.
They cannot bring cleanliness and righteousness through confession of sin. They cannot do that. So Christ is saying, come to the one you who are needy, you who have no money. To use another metaphor in the Bible, come and buy. And in doing so, we're saying, Christ, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. And when he says, come, come, I, I've, I have already run.
After you come and be restored, come and be renewed. That which was lost my child. You have been found and I have rescued you.
[00:48:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these, these are so, um, these two parables are so. Comfortable. Like, right, like they are there, there are certain passages of scripture that you can just like put on like a big fuzzy warm bathrobe on like sn a cold morning, a snuggy.
Yeah. I don't know if I want to go that far, but spirits are snuggy and, and these two are like that, right? Like, I know there are times where I feel like Christ redeemed me sort of begrudgingly, right? Mm-hmm. I think we have, we have this, um, concept in our mind of. Sort of the suffering servant, you know, like he's kind of like, ah, if I have to do it, I will.
Right, right. And, and like, I think we, we would, if, if we were the ones who were, were being tasked to redeem something, we might do it. You know, we might do it and we. We might feel a certain sense of satisfaction about it, but I can tell you that if I had a hundred sheep and I had lost one, I would not lay it on my shoulder rejoicing.
I would lay it on my shoulder. Frustrated and glad that I finally found it, but like. Right. Right. That's not what Christ did. That's right. Christ lays us on his shoulders rejoicing. Right. I know. Like when you lose something, it's frustrating and it's not just the loss of it that's frustrating. It's the time you have to take to find it.
And sometimes like, yeah, you're happy that you found it, but you're like, man, it would've just been nice if I hadn't lost this in
[00:49:36] Jesse Schwamb: the That's right.
[00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This woman, there's none of that. There's no, um, there's no regret. There's no. Uh, there's no begrudging this to it. There's nothing. It's just rejoicing. She's so happy.
And it's funny, I can imagine, uh, maybe, maybe this is my own, uh, lack of sanctification here. I can imagine being that friend that's like, I gotta come over 'cause you found your coin, right? Like, I can be, I could imagine me that person, but Right. But honestly, like. This is a, this is a situation where she's so overcome with joy.
She just has to tell people about it. Yeah. She has to share it with people. It, it reminds me, and I've seen this, I've seen this, um, connection made in the past certainly isn't new to me. I don't, I don't have any specific sorts to say, but like the woman at the well, right. She gets this amazing redemption.
She gets this, this Messiah right in front of her. She leaves her buckets at the well, and she goes into a town of people who probably hate her, who think she's just the worst scum of society and she doesn't care. She goes into town to tell everybody about the fact that the Messiah has come, right? And they're so like stunned by the fact that she's doing it.
Like they come to see what it is like that's what we need to be like. So there's. There's an element here of not only the rejoicing of God, and again, like, I guess I'm surprised because I've, I've, I've never sort of really read this. Part, I've never read this into it too much or I've never like really pulled this out, but it, now that I'm gonna say it, it just seems logical, like not only is God rejoicing in this, but again, it should be calling us to rejoice, right?
Christ is. Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently? Like when's the last time? And I, I don't want to, this is, this can be a lot of loss. So again, like. God is not calling every single person to stand up on their lunch table at work, or, I don't know if God's calling anybody to stand up on the lunch table at work.
Right. To like, like scream about how happy they are that they're sick, happy, happy. But like, when's the last time you were so overcome with joy that in the right opportunity, it just over, like it just overcame you and you had to share it. I don't rem. Putting myself bare here, like I don't remember the last time that happened.
I share my faith with people, like my coworkers know that I'm a Christian and, um, my, they know that like, there are gonna be times where like I will bring biblical ethics and biblical concepts into my work. Like I regularly use bible examples to illustrate a principle I'm trying to teach my employees or, or I will regularly sort of.
In a meeting where there's some question about what the right, not just like the correct thing to do, but the right thing to do. I will regularly bring biblical morality into those conversations. Nobody is surprised by that. Nobody's really offended by it. 'cause I just do it regularly. But I don't remember the last time where I was so overcome with joy because of my salvation that I just had to tell somebody.
Right. And that's a, that's a, that's an indictment on me. That's not an indictment on God. That's not an indictment on anyone else. That's an indictment on me. This parable is calling me to be more joyful about. My salvation.
[00:52:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. One of the, I think the best and easiest verses from Psalms to memorize is let the redeemed of the Lord say so.
Yes. Like, say something, speak up. There's, there's a great truth in what you're saying. Of course. And I think we mentioned this last time. There's a communal delight of redemption. And here we see that played out maybe a little bit more explicitly because the text says that the joy is before the angels, meaning that still God is the source of the joy.
In other words, the angels share in God's delight night, vice versa, and not even just in salvation itself, but the fact that God is delighted in this great salvation, that it shows the effectiveness of his saving power. All that he has designed will come to pass because he super intends his will over all things that all things, again are subservient to our salvation.
And here, why would that not bring him great joy? Because that's exactly what he intends and is able to do. And the angels rejoice along with him because his glory is revealed in his mighty power. So I'm, I'm with you. I mean, this reminds me. Of what the author of Hebrew says. This is chapter 12, just the first couple of verses.
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses in this communal kind of redemption of joy surrounding us. Laying aside every weight and the sin, which so easily entangles us, let us run that with endurance, the race that I set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who, for the joy, the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God for consider him who has endured such hostility by sinners against himself, so that you will not grow weary, fainting in heart.
[00:54:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, that's, uh, it's always good for us to end on scripture, so I won't try to add to that.
[00:54:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's the summary. That's what we learned. Yeah.
[00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: That's the summary, Jesse. Um, I'm so stoked to keep going on this series. Um, I, I think we're gonna have to probably take at least a couple weeks on the Parable of Prodigal Son because there's so much to it.
It's, it's a longer, uh, parable. So we'll come back next week. Um, take a little time, read through, uh, Luke 15, grab a decent commentary and, and do your homework so you can come into this conversation with us, ready to sort of soak in and marinate in God's word. And, and you know, this is one of those, um, one of those parables that I think that all of these parables, but like particularly this is one of those parables that I think we should tell other people what we're learning on this one.
I think there's always a place for us to share what we're learning, but it feels, it feels to me like this is something that is pertinent to Christians writ large. There is this sort of malaise and sense. Of a lack of joy that I think is really, yeah, there's almost like a spiritual depression in the church, and I don't use that term lightly like I have, I have friends and family members who suffer from clinical depression.
It's no joke. And there is a sort of like spiritual depression that settled in on the church in a lot of ways. We live in a pretty depressing time. And, and I think that church is affected by that. We could all use a dose of joy and we just happen to be going into, I'll even say it, even though it's not my normal practice, like we're going into Christmas.
Like it's the season of joy. Right? Right. Tis the season to be jolly like, right. There's a, there's a joyfulness in. In Christ that should be coming out of us, and we need to spread that, that needs to be contagious to others. So if you've found this episode, um, helpful in driving you towards that, please do consider sharing it with a friend, right?
Whether you, whether you use it, word of mouth, you send a link through your, through a text message, whatever, please tell someone because, not because Jesse and I are something special, like we're just two guys who wanna talk about the Bible and we get it right. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we're not.
Always a hundred percent sure which of those is which, but this is God's word. And if, if sharing a link to this podcast drives someone to take a look at Luke chapter 15 and, and be able to be drawn by the Holy Spirit to that scripture, then, then that's great. So please consider sharing this episode with a friend.
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[00:57:34] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, so let's play a little game as we close. So as you've said, we've been through the parable Lost Sheep.
We've been through the parable of the Lost Chama and now the granddaddy, the big one is coming up, the whole culmination of this whole series and sets of parables that Jesus is delivering and he's emphasizing and emphasizing and building momentum and it's the big one. So Tony, I ask you for our coverage over or under two and a half episodes to do it.
I dunno, is that the right line?
[00:58:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think at least two we might, we might stretch into a third, especially since we probably need to come back and talk about how Matthew covers this same subject a little differently. So I'll, I'll say at least two and a half, uh, and maybe the second half of that third one will be coming back to Matthew.
[00:58:22] Jesse Schwamb: So basically three, like, uh, yeah, you're over, which I think is probably the right call to make. So even there. We agreed. I, I felt like if I said three, that's like too many. You need a better line than that. You know? You gotta do it on the halves too, because then that forces an actual decision, which we really didn't make anyway.
'cause we basically just said two and a half.
[00:58:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Two and a half. Yeah. Well, Jesse, without further ado, let's, the sooner we get done with this, the sooner we can get onto the next. That's not actually how time works either, but it's just a good way to close the podcast. So it, if you're listening though, it's true.
It it is. It does. If you're listening, especially if you're listening. Nevermind. I'm gonna stop now. Until next time, Jesse, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.