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In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse continue their deep dive into the Parable of the Prodigal Son by examining the often-overlooked character of the elder brother. While the younger son's rebellion is obvious, the elder brother's self-righteous moralism represents a more subtle—and perhaps more dangerous—form of lostness. Through careful exegesis of Luke 15:25-32, the hosts explore how religious performance, resentment of grace, and merit-based thinking can keep us far from the Father's heart even while we remain close to the Father's house. This conversation challenges listeners to examine their own hearts for traces of elder brother theology and calls us to celebrate the scandalous grace that restores sinners to sonship.
The genius of Jesus' parable is that it exposes a form of lostness that religious people rarely recognize in themselves. The elder brother never left home, never squandered his inheritance, and never violated explicit commands. Yet his response to his brother's restoration reveals a heart fundamentally opposed to the father's character. His complaint—"I have served you all these years and never disobeyed your command"—demonstrates that he viewed his relationship with the father transactionally, as an employer-employee arrangement rather than a father-son bond. This is the essence of legalism: performing religious duties while remaining distant from God's heart. The tragedy is that the elder brother stood within reach of everything the father had to offer yet experienced none of the joy, fellowship, or security of sonship. This form of lostness is particularly dangerous because it wears the mask of righteousness and often goes undetected until grace is extended to someone we deem less deserving.
Just as the father ran to meet the returning younger son, he also went out to plead with the elder brother to come into the feast. This detail is theologically significant: God pursues both the openly rebellious and the self-righteous with the same gracious initiative. The father's response to the elder brother's complaint is not harsh correction but tender invitation: "Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours." This reveals that the problem was never scarcity or the father's favoritism—the elder brother had always possessed full access to the father's resources and affection. The barrier was entirely on the son's side: his inability to receive sonship as a gift rather than a wage. This mirrors the historical situation of the Pharisees and scribes who grumbled at Jesus for receiving sinners. They stood adjacent to the kingdom, surrounded by the promises and covenant blessings of God, yet remained outside because they could not accept grace as the principle of God's dealing with humanity. The invitation still stood, but it required them to abandon their merit-based system and enter the feast as recipients of unearned favor.
Luke deliberately leaves the parable unfinished—we never learn whether the elder brother eventually joined the celebration. This narrative technique places the reader in the position of the elder brother, forcing us to answer for ourselves: will we enter the feast or remain outside in bitter resentment? For the original audience of Pharisees and scribes, this unresolved ending was a direct challenge to their response to Jesus' ministry. Would they continue to grumble at God's grace toward tax collectors and sinners, or would they recognize their own need and join the celebration? For contemporary readers, the question remains equally pressing. When we hear of a notorious sinner coming to faith, do we genuinely rejoice, or do we scrutinize their repentance with suspicion? When churches extend membership to those with broken pasts, do we celebrate restoration or quietly question whether they deserve a place at the table? The parable's open ending is not a literary flaw but a pastoral strategy: it refuses to let us remain passive observers and demands that we examine whether we harbor elder brother theology in our own hearts.
The father's household is a place where grace produces joy, not just merely relief. The elder brother hears the joy before he sees it. That's often how resentment works, isn't it? We're alerted to the happiness of others and somehow there's this visceral response of wanting to be resentful toward that joy, toward that unmerited favor. — Jesse Schwamb
There is a way to be near the house, church adjacent, religiously active, yet to be really far from the father's heart. The elder brother is not portrayed as an atheist, but as a moralist. And moralism can be a more subtle distance than open rebellion. — Jesse Schwamb
God doesn't keep sinners from repenting. The reprobate are not prohibited or prevented by God from coming to faith. They're being kept out by their own stubborn refusal to come in. That's where this punchline hits so hard. — Tony Arsenal
[00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 477 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:51] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.
[00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.
[00:00:56] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, it struck me that this whole thing we've been doing all this parable talk is really after the manner of God's words.
And one of the things I've really grown to appreciate is how God speaks to the condition of those whom he addresses. He considers our ability, our capacity as his hearers to process what he's saying, and that leads into these amazing parables that we've been talking about. He doesn't speak as he is able to speak.
So to speak, but I didn't mean that to happen. But as we were able to hear, and that means he spoke in these lovely parables so that we might better understand him. And today we're gonna get into some of the drama of the best, like the crown jewel as we've been saying, of maybe all the parables. The Parable of the Lost Son.
We spoke a little bit about it in the last episode. Definitely want to hit that up because it's setting you up for this one, which is the definitive episode. But now we're gonna talk about this first, this younger lost son. Get into some of all of these like juicy details about what takes place, and really, again, see if we can find the heart of God.
Spoiler. We can and we'll,
[00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: yeah,
[00:02:04] Jesse Schwamb: but before we do both of those things, it's of course always time at this moment to do a little affirming with or denying against. Of course, if you haven't heard us before, that's where we take a moment to say, is there something that we think is undervalued that we wanna bring forward that we'd recommend or think is awesome?
Or conversely, is there something that's overvalued that's just, we're over it. The vibe is done. We're gonna deny against that. So I say to you, as I often do, Tony, are you affirming with or deny against?
[00:02:31] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming tonight. Um, I don't know how much the audience realizes of a giant ridiculous nerd I am, but we're about to go to entirely new giant nerd depths.
[00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: All right. I
[00:02:43] Tony Arsenal: think,
[00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: let's hear it.
[00:02:44] Tony Arsenal: So, um, I was a huge fan of Stranger Things. Some, there's some issues with the show, and I understand why some people might not, um, might not feel great about watching it. You know, I think it falls within Christian liberty. But one of the main themes of the show, this is not a spoiler, you learn about this in episode one, is the whole game.
The whole show frames itself around Dungeons and Dragons, right? It's kind of like a storytelling device within the show that the kids play, Dungeons and Dragons, and everything that happens in the Dungeons and Dragons game that they're playing, sort of like, um, foreshadows what's actually gonna happen in the show.
Which funny if, you know Dungeons and Dragons lore, you kind of learn the entire plot of the story like ahead of time. Um, but so I, stranger Things just finished up and I've kind of been like itching to get into Dungeons and Dragons. I used to play a little bit of tabletop when I was in high school, in early college and um, I just really like the idea of sort of this collaborative storytelling game.
Um, whether it's Dungeon Dragons or one of the other systems, um, Dungeons and Dragons is the most popular. It's the most well published. It's the most well established and it's probably the easiest to find a group to play with. Although it is very hard to find a group to play with, especially, uh, kind of out in the middle of nowhere where I live.
So this is where the ultra super nerdy part comes in.
[00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, here we
[00:04:03] Tony Arsenal: go. I have been painstakingly over the last week teaching Google Gemini. To be a dungeon master for me. So I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons more or less by myself with, uh, with Google Gemini, and I'm just having a lot of fun with it.
Um, you can get a free copy of the rules online if you, I think it's DND, the letter NDND beyond.com. They have a full suite of like tools to create your character. Access to a basic set of the core rules. Um, you can spend a lot of money on Dungeons and Dragons, uh, and if you want to like really get into it, the books are basically textbooks.
Like you're buying $300 or 300 page, $300, 300 page textbooks, um, that are not all that differently costs than like college textbooks. You'll buy a 300 page Dungeon master guide that's like $50 if you want a paper copy. So, but you can get into it for free. You can get the free rolls online, you can use their dungeon, the d and d Beyond app and do all your dice rolls for free.
Um, you, you can get a free dice roller online if you don't want to do their, their app. Um, but it's just a lot of fun. I've just been having a lot of fun and I found that the, I mean. When you play a couple sessions with it, you see that the, the um, the A IDM that I've created, like it follows the same story beats 'cause it's only got so much to work with in its language model.
Um, but I'm finding ways to sort of like break it out of that model by forcing it to refer to certain websites that are like Dungeons and Dragons lore websites and things like build your, build your campaign from this repository of Dungeons and Dragons stuff. So. I think you could do this with just about any sort of narrative storytelling game like this, whether you're playing a different system or d and d Pathfinders.
I mean, there's all sorts of different versions of it, but it's just been a lot of fun to see, see it going. I'm trying to get a group together. 'cause I think I would, I would probably rather play Dungeons and Dragons with people, um, and rather do it in person. But it's hard to do up here. It's hard to get a, get a group going.
So that's my super nerdy affirmation. I'm not just affirming Dungeons and Dragons, which would already be super nerdy. I'm affirming playing it by myself on my phone, on the bus with Google Gemini, AI acting like I'm not. Just this weird antisocial lunatic. So I'm having a lot of fun with it.
[00:06:20] Jesse Schwamb: So there are so many levels of inception there.
Yeah. Like the inception and everything you just said. I love it.
[00:06:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, what I'm learning is, um, you can give an, and, and this is something I didn't realize, what ai, I guess I probably should have, you know, it's not like an infinite thing. Um, you can give an AI instructions and if your chat gets long enough, it actually isn't referring back to the very beginning of the chat most of the time.
Right. There's a, there's like a win context window of about 30 responses. So like if you tell the AI, don't roll the dice for me, like, let me roll dices that are related to my actions, eventually it will forget that. So part of what I've been doing is basically building, I'm using Google Gemini when the AI does something I don't want it to do, I say, you just did something I don't want it to do.
Gimme a diagnostic report of why you did that. It will explain to me why it did what it did. Right. Why it didn't observe the rules. And then I'm feeding that into another. Prompt that is helping me generate better prompts that it refers back to. So it's kind of this weird iterative, um, yeah, I, I don't, I'm like, I maybe I'm gonna create the singularity.
I'm not sure. Maybe this is gonna be possible. We should sit over the edge. It's gonna, it's gonna learn how to cast magic spells and it's gonna fire bolt us in the face or something like that. Right. But, uh, again, high risk. I, I, for one, welcome our AO AI dungeon masters. So check it out. You should try it.
If you could do this with chat GPT, you could do it with any ai. Um, it, it, it is going to get a little, I have the benefit because I have a Google Workspace account. I have access to Google Pro or the Gemini Pro, which is a better model for this kind of thing. But you could do this with, with chat GPT or something like that.
And it's gonna be more or less the same experience, I think. But I'm having a, I'm having a ton of fun with it. Um. Again, I, I, there's something about just this, Dungeons and Dragons at its core is a, it's like a, an exercise in joint storytelling, which is really fascinating and interesting to me. Um, and that's what most tabletop RPGs are like.
I suppose you get into something like War Hammer and it's a little bit more like a board. It's a mixture of that plus a board game. But Dungeons and Dragons, the DM is creating the, I mean, not the entire world, but is creating the narrative. And then you as a player are an actor within that narrative. And then there's a certain element of chance that dice rolls play.
But for the most part, um, you're driving the story along. You're telling the story together. So it's, it's pretty interesting. I've also been watching live recordings of Dungeons and Dragon Sessions on YouTube. Oh,
[00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: wow.
[00:08:51] Tony Arsenal: Like, there's a, there's a channel called Critical Role. Like these sessions are like three and a half hours long.
So, wow. I just kinda have 'em on in the background when I'm, when I'm, uh, working or if I'm, you know, doing something else. Um, but it's really interesting stuff. It's, it's pretty cool. I think it's fun. I'm a super nerd. I'm, I'm no shame in that. Um, I'm just really enjoying it.
[00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, nerdery is great. That's like part of the zeitgeist now.
Listen to culture. It's cool to be a nerd. I don't know much about d and d. I've heard a lot about this idea of this community that forms around. Yeah. The story, correct me if I'm wrong, can't these things go on for like years, decades?
[00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, yeah. Like, you can do there. There, some of this has made its way into the official rule books, but basically you could do what's called a one shot, which is like a self-contained story.
Usually a single session, you know, like you get a Dungeon master, game master, whichever you wanna call the person. Three to four, maybe five characters, player characters. And one session is usually about two hours long. So it's not like you sit down for 20 minutes, 30 minutes at a time and play this right.
And you could do a one shot, which is a story that's designed to, to live all within that two hour session. Um, some people will do it where there isn't really any planned like, outcome of the story. The, the DM just kind of makes up things to do as they go. And then you can have campaigns, which is like, sometimes it's like a series of one shots, but more, it is more like a long term serialized period, you know, serialized campaign where you're doing many, um, many, many kinds of, uh, things all in one driving to like a big epic goal or battle at the end, right?
Um, some groups stay together for a really long time and they might do multiple campaigns, so there's a lot to it. Game's been going on for like 50, 60, 70 years, something like that. I don't remember exactly when it started, but
[00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: yeah.
[00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, it's an old game. It's kinda like the doctor who of of poor games and it's like the original tabletop role playing game, I think.
[00:10:47] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Again, there's something really appealing to me about not just that cooperative storytelling, but cooperative gameplay. Everybody's kind of in it together for the most part. Yeah. Those conquest, as I understand them, are joint in nature. You build solidarity, but if you're meeting with people and having fun together and telling stories and interacting with one another, there's a lot of good that comes out of that stuff there.
A lot of lovely common grace in those kind of building, those long-term interactions, relationships, entertainment built on being together and having good, clean, fun together.
[00:11:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, it's, um. It's an interesting exercise. It's it, in some ways it's very much like improv. Like you, you think of like an improv comedy like show I've been to somewhere.
Like, you know, you go to the show and it's an improv troupe, but they're like calling people from the crowd up and asking them for like different scenarios they might do. It's kind of like that in that like the GM can plan a whole, can plan a whole thing. But if I as a player character, um. And I've done this to the virtual one just to see what it does, and it's done some interesting things.
One of the campaigns I was playing, I had rescued a merchant from some giant spiders and I was helping, like, I was helping like navigate them through the woods to the next town. And we kept on getting attacked and just outta nowhere. I was like, what if I sort of act as though I'm suspicious of this merchant now because why are we getting attacked all the time?
And so I, I typed in sort of like a little. A mini role play of me accusing this guy. And it was something like, Randall, we get, we're getting attacked a lot for a simple merchant, Randall merchant. What happens if I cast a tech magic? What am I gonna find? And he's like, I don't know what I'm gonna find. I know I don't know anything.
And then I cast a tech magic and it shifted. I mean, I don't know where the campaign was gonna go before that, but it shifted the whole thing now where the person who gave him the package he was carrying had betrayed him. It was, so that happens in real life too in these games, real life in these games.
That happens in real, in-person sessions too, where a player or a group of players may just decide instead of talking to the contact person that is supposed to give them the clue to find the dungeon they're supposed to go to, instead they ambush them and murder them in gold blood. And now the, the dungeon master has to figure out, how do I get them back to this dungeon when this is the only person that was supposed to know where it is?
So it, it does end up really stretching your thinking skills and sort of your improvisational skills. There's an element of, um, you know, like chance with the dice, um, I guess like the dice falls in the lot, but the lot is in the handle. Or like, obviously that's all ordained as well too, but there is this element of chance where even the DM doesn't get to determine everything.
Um, if, if I say I want to, I want to try to sneak into this room, but I'm a giant barbarian who has, you know, is wearing like chain mail, there's still a chance I could do it, but the dice roll determines that. It's not like the, the GM just says you can't do that. Um, so it's, it's a, I, I like it. I'm, I'm really looking forward to trying to, getting into it.
It is hard to start a group and to get going and, um, there's a part of me that's a little bit. Gun shy of maybe like getting too invested with a group of non-Christians for something like this. 'cause it can get a little weird sometimes. But I think that, I think that'll work out. It'll be fun. I know there's actually some people in our telegram chat.
Bing, bing, bing segue. There we go. There's some people in our telegram chat actually, that we're already planning to do a campaign. Um, so we might even do like a virtual reform brotherhood, Dungeons and Dragons group. So that might be a new sub channel in the telegram at some point.
[00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. You could jump right in.
Go to t.me back slash reform brotherhood.
[00:14:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming since I just spent the last 15 minutes gushing about my nerdy hobby?
[00:14:23] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, no, that was great. Can I, can I just say two things? One is, so you're basically saying it's a bit like, like a troll shows up and everybody's like, yes. And yeah.
So I love that idea. Second thing, which is follow up question, very brief. What kind of merchant was Randall.
[00:14:39] Tony Arsenal: Uh, he was a spice trader actually.
[00:14:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I don't trust that.
[00:14:43] Tony Arsenal: And, and silk, silk and spices.
[00:14:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's double, that's too strict.
[00:14:47] Tony Arsenal: He was actually good guy in the, in the story that developed out of this campaign.
He actually became part of my family and like, like, like got adopted into the family because he lost everything on his own. Randy we're
[00:15:00] Jesse Schwamb: talking about Randy.
[00:15:01] Tony Arsenal: Randy Randall with one L. Yeah. The AI was very specific about
that.
[00:15:05] Jesse Schwamb: There's, there's nothing about this guy I trust. I, is this still ongoing? Because I think he's just trying to make his way deeper in,
[00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: uh, no, no.
It, I'll, I'll wait for next week to tell you how much, even more nerdy this thing gets. But there's a whole thing that ha there was a whole thing out of this That's a tease. Tease. There was a, there was a horse and the horse died and there was lots of tears and there was a wedding and a baby. It was, it's all sorts of stuff going on in this campaign.
[00:15:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I'm sure. Randy was somewhere near that horse when it happened. Right?
[00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: It was his horse.
[00:15:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly. That's
[00:15:35] Tony Arsenal: exactly, he didn't, he didn't kill the horse. He had no power to knock down the bridge The horse was standing on.
[00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, next week, I'm pretty sure that's what we're gonna learn is that it was all him.
[00:15:45] Tony Arsenal: Alright, Jesse, save us from this. Save us from this, please. Uh,
[00:15:49] Jesse Schwamb: no.
What
[00:15:50] Tony Arsenal: you affirming, this is
[00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: great.
[00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: It's possible that there is a crossover between yours and mine if we consider. That the church is like playing a d and d game in the dungeon Masters Christ, and the campaigns, the gospel. So I was thinking maybe is it possible, uh, maybe this is just the, the theology of the cross, but that sometimes, like you need the denial to get to the affirmation.
Have we talked about that kind of truth? Yeah,
[00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: yeah,
[00:16:15] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. So here's a little bit of that. I'll be very, very brief and I'm using this not as like just one thing that happened today, but what I know is for sure happening all over the world. And I mean that very literally, not just figuratively when it comes to the body of Christ, the local church.
So it snowed here overnight. This was, this is the Lord's Day. We're hanging out in the Lord's Day, which is always a beautiful day to talk about God. And overnight it snowed. The snow stopped relatively late in the morning around the time that everybody would be saying, Hey, it's time to go and worship the Lord.
So for those in my area, I got up, we did the whole clearing off the Kai thing. I went to church and I was there a little bit early for a practice for music. And when I pulled in, there weren't many there yet, but the whole parking lot unplowed. So there's like three inches of snow, unplowed parking lot. So I guess the denial is like the plow people decided like, not this time I, I don't think so.
They understood they were contracted with the church, but my understanding is that when one of the deacons called, they were like, Ooh, yeah, we're like 35 minutes away right now, so that's gonna be a problem. So when I pulled in, here's what I was. Like surprise to find, but in a totally unexpected way, even though I understand what a surprise is.
And that is that, uh, that first the elders and the deacons, everybody was just decided we're going to shovel an entire parking lot. And at some point big, I was a little bit early there, but at some point then this massive text change just started with everybody, which was, Hey, when you come to church, bring your shovel.
And I, I will tell you like when I got out of the car. I was so like somebody was immediately running to clear a path with me. One of those like snow pushers, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like one, those beastly kind of like blade things.
[00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: Those things are, those things are the best.
[00:17:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You just run. And so you have never met a group of people that was more happy to shovel an entire large asphalt area, which normally shouldn't even be required.
And. It just struck me, even in hindsight now thinking about it, it was this lovely confluence of people serving each other and serving God. It was as if they got up that morning and said, do you know what would be the best thing in the world for me to do is to shovel. And so everybody was coming out.
Everybody was shoveling it. It was to protect everyone and to allow one into elaborate, one access. It was just incredible. And so I started this because the affirmation is, I know this happens in, in all of our churches, every God fearing God, loving God serving church, something like this is happening, I think on almost every Lord's day or maybe every day of the week in various capacities.
And I just think this is God's people coming together because everybody, I think when we sat down for the message was exhausted, but. But there was so much joy in doing this. I think what you normally would find to be a mundane and annoying task, and the fact that it wasn't just, it was redeemed as if like we, we found a greater purpose in it.
But that's, everyone saw this as a way to love each other and to love God, and it became unexpected worship in the parking lot. That's really what it was, and it was fantastic. I really almost hope that we just get rid of the plow company and just do it this way from now on. Yeah, so I'm affirming, recognize people, recognize brothers and sisters that your, your church is doing this stuff all the time and, and be a part of it.
Jump in with the kinda stuff because I love how it brings forward the gospel.
[00:19:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great story. It's a great, uh, a great example of the body of Christ being, what the body of Christ is and just pulling together to get it done. Um, which, you know, we do on a spiritual level, I think, more often than a physical level these days.
Right, right. But, um, that's great. I'm sitting here going three inches of snow. I would've just pulled into the lot and then pulled out of the lot. But New Hampshire, it hits different in New Hampshire. Like we all d have snow tires and four wheel drive.
[00:20:02] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's enough snow where it was like pretty wet and heavy that it, if, you know, you pack that stuff down, it gets slick.
You can't see the people, like you can't have your elderly people just flying in, coming in hot and then trying to get outta the vehicle, like making their way into church.
[00:20:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:20:15] Jesse Schwamb: So there was, there was a lot more of that. But I think again, you would, one of the options would've been like, Hey, why don't we shovel out some sp spaces for the, for those who need it, for, you know, those who need to have access in a way that's a little bit less encumbered.
Oh, no, no. These people are like, I see your challenge and I am going to shovel the entire parking lots.
[00:20:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It used to happen once in a while, uh, at the last church, uh, at, um, your dad's church. We would, where the plow would just not come on a Sunday morning or, or more often than not. Um, you know, what happens a lot of times is the plows don't want to come more than once.
Right. If they don't have to. Or sometimes they won't come if they think it's gonna melt because they don't want to deal with, uh, with like customers who are mad that you plowed and that it all melts. But either way, once in a while. The plow wouldn't come or it wouldn't come in time. And what we would do is instead of trying to shovel an entire driveway thing, we would just went, the first couple people who would get there, the young guys in the church, there was only a couple of us, but the younger guys in the church would just, we would just be making trips, helping people into the, yeah.
Helping people into the building. So, um, it was a pretty, you know, it was a small church, so it was like six trips and we'd have everybody in, but um, we just kind of, that was the way we pulled together. Um, yeah, that's a great, it's a great story. I love, I love stuff like that. Yeah, me too. Whether it's, whether it's, you know, plowing a, a parking lot with shovels instead of a plow, or it's just watching, um, watching the tables and the chairs from the fellowship, you know, all just like disappear because everybody's just, uh, picks up after themselves and cleans and stuff.
That's, that's like the most concrete example of the body of Christ doing what the body of Christ does. Um, it's always nice, you know, we always hear jokes about like, who can carry the most, the most chairs,
[00:22:04] Jesse Schwamb: most
[00:22:04] Tony Arsenal: chairs. Uh, I think it's true. Like a lot of times I think like I could do like seven or eight sometimes.
[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, you, that's, so, one more thing I wanna say. I, I wanted to tell you this privately, Tony, 'cause it just cracked me up 'cause I, you'll appreciate this. But now I'm realizing I think the brothers and sisters who listened to us talk for any length of time and in the context of this conversation, but the church will appreciate this too.
On my way out, I, I happened because I was there early and the snow was crazy. I parked way further out, way on the edge of the lot to just allow for greater access because of all the shoveling that was happening. And by the way, I really hope there were a ton of visitors this morning because they were like, wow, this, this church is wild.
They love to shovel their own lot and they're the happiest people doing it. Some sweaty person just ushered me in while they were casting snow. Like,
[00:22:47] Tony Arsenal: is this some new version of snake handling? You shovel your own lot and your impervious to back injuries.
[00:22:53] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. So I was walking out and as I walked past, uh, there was a, uh, two young gentlemen who were congregating by this very large lifted pickup truck, which I don't have much experience with, but it looked super cool and it was started, it was warming up, and they were just like casually, like in the way that only like people with large beards wearing flannel and Carhartt kind of do, like casually leaning against the truck, talking in a way that you're like, wow, these guys are rugged.
And they sound, they're super cool, and they're probably like in their twenties. And all I hear as I pass by is one guy going, yeah, well, I mean that's, I was, I said to them too, but I said, listen, I'd rather go to a church with God-fearing women than anywhere else.
[00:23:36] Tony Arsenal: Nice.
[00:23:37] Jesse Schwamb: I was just like, yep. On the prowl and I love it.
And they're not wrong. This is the place to be.
[00:23:42] Tony Arsenal: It is.
[00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This is the place to be. Yeah. So all kinds of, all kinds of good things I think going on in that in the house of the Lord and where wherever you're at, I would say be happy and be joyful and look for those things and participate in, like you said, whether it's physical or not, but as soon as you said like the, our young men, our youth somehow have this competition of when we need to like pack up the sanctuary.
How many chairs can I take at one time? Yeah. It's like the classic and it just happens. Nobody says like, okay, everybody line up. We're about to embark on the competition now. Like the strong man usher competition. It's just like, it just happens and
[00:24:17] Tony Arsenal: it's
[00:24:17] Jesse Schwamb: incredible.
[00:24:18] Tony Arsenal: I mean, peacocks fan out their tail feathers.
Young Christian guys fan out. All of the table chairs, chairs they can carry. It's uh, it's a real phenomena. So I feel like if you watch after a men's gathering, everybody is like carrying one chair at a time because they don't wanna hurt their backs and their arms. Oh, that's
[00:24:36] Jesse Schwamb: true. That's
[00:24:37] Tony Arsenal: what I do. Yeah.
But it's when the women are around, that's when you see guys carrying like 19 chairs. Yeah. Putting themselves in the hospital.
[00:24:42] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I, listen, it comes for all of us. Like I, you know, I'm certainly not young anymore by almost any definition, but even when I'm in the mix, I'm like, oh, I see you guys.
You wanna play this game? Mm-hmm. Let's do this. And then, you know, I'm stacking chairs until I hurt myself. So it's great. That's, that is what we do for each other. It's
[00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: just, I hurt my neck getting outta bed the other day. So it happens. It's real.
[00:25:05] Jesse Schwamb: The struggle. Yeah, the struggle is real.
[00:25:07] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of struggle, speaking of family issues, speaking of all kinds of drama, let's get into Luke 15 and let me read just, I would say the first part of this parable, which as we've agreed to talk about, if we can even get this far, it's just the younger son.
[00:25:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:25:25] Jesse Schwamb: And again, don't worry, we're gonna get to all of it, but let me read beginning in, uh, verse 11 here. This is Luke chapter 15. Come follow along as you will accept if you're operating heavy machinery. And Jesus said, A man had two sons and the younger of them said to his father, father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.
So he divided his wealth between them. And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country. And there he squandered his estate living recklessly. Now, when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country and it began to be impoverished.
So he went and hired himself to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. So he went and as he was desiring to be fed with the pods that the swine were eating because no one was giving anything to him. But when he came to himself, he said, how many of my father's men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger.
I'll rise up and go to my father, and I'll say to him, father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired men. So he rose up, came to his father, but while he was still a long way off. His father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him.
And the son said to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his slaves, quickly, bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet and bring the fat in calf and slaughter it and let us celebrate.
For the son of mine was dead and has come to life again. He was lost and he has been found and they began to celebrate.
[00:27:09] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a, um, such a, I don't know, like pivotal seminal parable in the Ministry of Christ. Um, it's one of those parables and we, we mentioned this briefly last week that even most.
It, it hasn't passed out of the cultural zeitgeist yet. A lot of biblical teaching has, I mean, a lot, I think a lot of things that used to be common knowledge where, where you could make a reference to something in the Bible and people would just get it. Um, even if they weren't Christian or weren't believers, they would still know what you were talking about.
There's a lot of things in the Bible that have passed out of that cultural memory. The, the parable of the prodigal son, lost son, however you wanna phrase it, um, that's not one of them. Right. So I think it's really important for us, um, and especially since it is such a beautiful picture of the gospel and it has so many different theological touch points, it's really incumbent on us to spend time thinking about this because I would be willing to bet that if you weave.
Elements of this parable into your conversations with nonbelievers that you are praying for and, and, you know, witnessing to and sharing the gospel with, if you weave this in there, you're gonna help like plant some seeds that when it comes time to try to harvest, are gonna pay dividends. Right. So I think it's a really, it's a really great thing that we're gonna be able to spend, you know, a couple weeks really just digging into this.
[00:28:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and to define the beginning, maybe from the end, just slightly here, I like what you said about this cultural acknowledgement of this. I think one of the correctives we can provide, which is clear in the story, is in the general cultural sense. We speak of this prodigal as something that just returns comes back, was lost, but now is found.
And often maybe there is this component of, in the familial relationship, it's as if they've been restored. Here we're gonna of course find that this coming to one senses is in fact the work of God. That there is, again, a little bit of denial that has to bring forward the affirmation here that is the return.
And so again, from the beginning here, we're just talking about the younger son. We have more than youthful ambition.
[00:29:19] Jesse Schwamb: This heart of, give me the stuff now, like so many have said before, is really to say. Give me the gifts and not you, which is, I think, a common fault of all Christians. We think, for instance of heaven, and we think of all the blessings that come with it, but not necessarily of the joy of just being with our savior, being with Christ.
And I think there's something here right from the beginning, there's a little bit of this betrayal in showing idolatry, the ugliness of treating God's gifts as if there's something owed. And then this idea that of course. He receives these things and imme more or less immediately sometime after he goes and takes these things and squanderers them.
And sin and idolatry, I think tends to accelerate in this way. The distance from the father becomes distance from wisdom. We are pulled away from that, which is good. The father here being in his presence and being under his care and his wisdom and in his fear of influence and concern, desiring then to say, I don't want you just give me the gifts that you allegedly owe me.
And then you see how quickly like sin does everything you, we always say like, sin always costs more than you want to pay. And it always takes you further than you want to go. And that's exactly what we see here. Like encapsulated in an actual story of relationship and distance.
[00:30:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think, um.
It's interesting to me.
[00:30:39] Tony Arsenal: You know, I, I, I'm a big fan of saying you don't need to study Greek to understand your Bible, but I'm also a big fan of saying understanding a little bit of Greek is really helpful. And one of the things that I think is really intriguing, and I haven't quite parsed out exactly what I think this means, but the word property in this parable, it actually is two different Greek words that is translated as property, at least in the ESV.
And neither one of them really fit. What our normal understanding of property would be. And there are Greek words that refer to like all of your material possessions, but it says, father, give me the share of property. And he uses the word usia, which those of us who have heard anything about the trinity, which is all of us, um, know that that word means something about existence.
It's the core essence of a person. So it says, father, give me the share of usia that is coming to me. And then it says, and he divided his bias, his, his life between them. Then it says, not many days later, the younger son gathered all that he had took a journey into the far country. There he squandered his usia again.
So this, this parable, Christ is not using the ordinary words to refer to material, uh, material accumulation and property like. I think probably, you know, Christ isn't like randomly using these words. So there probably is an element that these were somehow figuratively used of one's life possessions. But the fact that he's using them in these particular ways, I think is significant.
[00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: And so the, the, the younger son here, and I don't even like calling this the prodigal sun parable because the word prodigal doesn't like the equivalent word in Greek doesn't appear in this passage. And prodigal doesn't mean like the lost in returned, like prodigal is a word that means like the one who spends lavishly, right?
So we call him the prodigal son because he went and he squandered all of his stuff and he spent all of his money. So it doesn't even really describe the main feature or the main point of why this, this parable is here. It's just sort of like a random adjective that gets attached to it. But all of that aside, um.
This parable starts off not just about wasting our property, like wasting our things, but it's a parable that even within the very embedded language of the parable itself is talking about squandering our very life, our very essence, our very existence is squandered and wasted as we depart from the Father.
Right? And this is so like, um, it's almost so on the head, on the on the nose that it's almost a little like, really Jesus. Like this is, this is so like, slap you in the face kind of stuff. This is right outta like Romans, uh, Romans one, like they did not give thanks to God. They did not show gratitude to God or acknowledge him as God.
This is what's happening in this parable. The son doesn't go to his father and say, father, I love you. I'm so happy to stay with you. I'm so happy to be here. He, he basically says like. Give me your very life essence, and I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go spend it on prostitutes. I'm gonna go waste your life, father, I'm gonna waste your life, your existence, your bias.
I'm gonna go take that and I'm gonna squander it on reckless living. And I guess we don't know for sure. He, it doesn't say he spends it on prostitutes. That's something his brother says later and assumes he did. So I, I don't know that we do that. But either way, I'm gonna take what's yours, your very life, your very essence.
And also that my life, my essence, the gift you've given me as my father, you've given me my life. In addition now to your life or a portion of your life. And I'm gonna go squander that on reckless living, right? Like, how much of a picture of sin is that, that we, we take what we've been given by God, our very life, our very essence, we owe him everything, and we squander that on sinful, reckless living.
That that's just a slap in the face in the best way right out of the gate here.
[00:34:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that, that's a great point because it's, it would be one thing to rebel over disobedience, another thing to use the very life essence that you've been given for destructive, self-destructive purposes. And then to use that very energy, which is not yours to begin with, but has been imbued in yours, external, all of these things.
And then to use that very thing as the force of your rebellion. So it's double insult all the way around. I'm with you in the use of Greek there. Thank you. Locus Bio software. Not a sponsor of the podcast, but could be. And I think that's why sometimes in translations you get the word like a state because it's like the closest thing we can have to understanding that it's property earned through someone's life more or less.
Yeah. And then is passed down, but as representative, not just of like, here's like 20 bucks of cash, but something that I spent all of me trying to earn and. And to your point, also emphasizing in the same way that this son felt it was owed him. So it's like really bad all around and I think we would really be doing ourselves a disservice if we didn't think that there's like a little bit of Paul washer saying in this, like I'm talking about you though.
So like just be like, look at how disrespectful the sun is. Yeah. Haven't we all done this? To God and bringing up the idea of prodigal being, so that, that is like the amazing juxtaposition, isn't it? Like Prodigal is, is spent recklessly, parsimonious would be like to, to save recklessly, so to speak. And then you have the love the father demonstrates coming against all of that in the same way with like a totally different kind of force.
So.
[00:36:02] Jesse Schwamb: What I find interesting, and I think this is like set up in exactly what you said, is that when you get to verse 14 and this famine comes, it's showing us, I think that like providence exposes what Sin conceals.
[00:36:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:36:16] Jesse Schwamb: And want arrives. Not just because like the money ran out, but because again, like these idols, what he's replaced the father with, they don't satisfy.
And repentance then often begins when God shows the emptiness of light apart life apart from him. That's like the affirmation being born out of the denial. And so I think that this also is evolving for us, this idea that God is going to use hardship, not as mere punishment, but as mercy that wakes us up and that the son here is being woken up, but not, of course, it's not as if he goes into the land, like you said, starts to spend, is like, whoa, hold on a second.
This seems like a bad idea. It's not until all of that sin ever, like the worship of false things collapses under its own weight before it, which is like the precursor of the antecedent, I think, to this grand repentance or this waking up.
[00:37:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I also think it's, um.
[00:37:08] Tony Arsenal: A feature of this that I haven't reflected on too deeply, but is, is worth thinking about is the famine that's described here only occurs in this far country that he's in.
[00:37:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:37:17] Tony Arsenal: Right. So even that's right. And this is like a multitude of foolish decisions. This is compounding foolish decisions that don't, don't make any sense. Like they don't really actually make any sense. Um. There's not a logic to this, this lost son's decision making. He takes the property. Okay. I guess maybe like you could be anxious to get your inheritance, but then like he takes it to a far country.
Like there's no reason for him to do that. If at any point through this sort of insane process he had stopped short, he would not have been in the situation he was in. Yes. And that, I love that phrase, that providence, you know, reveals, I don't know exactly how you said it, but like providence reveals what our sin can bring to us.
Like he first see sins against his father by sort of like demanding, demanding his inheritance early. Then he takes it and he leaves his country for no reason. He goes to this far country, then he spends everything and then the famine arises. Right? And the famine arises in this other country.
[00:38:13] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:38:13] Tony Arsenal: And that's, I think that is still again, like a picture of sin.
Like we. We don't just, we don't just take what the father has and, and like spend it like that would be bad enough if we weren't grateful for what we have and what we've been given, and we just waste it. But on top of that, now we also have taken ourselves to a far country. Like we've gone away from the good, the good land of the Lord, as those who are not regenerate.
We've gone away from the, the Lord into this far country. And it's not until we start to have this famine that we recognize what we've done. And again, this is, this is where I think we get a picture. There's so many theological, like points in this parable particular that it almost feels a little bit like a, like a.
Parable that's intended to teach some systematic theology about for sure, the oral salus, which I think there's probably a lot of like biblical theology people that are ready to just crawl through the screen and strangle me for saying that. But this is such a glorious picture of, of regeneration too.
[00:39:16] Tony Arsenal: Like he comes to himself, there's nothing, there's nothing in the story that's like, oh, and the servant that he was, the other servant he was talking to mentioned that the famine, like there's nothing here that should prompt him to want to go back to his home, to think that his father could or would do anything about it, except that he comes to himself.
He just comes to the realization that his father is a good man and is wise and has resources, and has takes care of his, of his servants on top of how he takes care of his sons. That is a picture of regeneration. There's no, yeah. Logical, like I'm thinking my way into it, he just one day realizes how much, how many of my father's servants have more than enough bread.
Right. But I'm perishing here in this, this foolish other country with nothing. Right. I can't even, and the, the pods that the pigs ate, we can even, we can get into the pods a little bit here, but like. He wants to eat the pods. The pods that he's giving the pigs are not something that's even edible to humans.
He's that destitute, that he's willing to eat these pods that are like, this is the leftover stuff that you throw to the pigs because no, no, nobody and nothing else can actually eat it. And that's the state he's in at the very bottom, in the very end of himself where he realizes my father is good and he loves me, and even if I can never be his son again, surely he'll take care of me.
I mentioned it last week, like he wasn't going back thinking that this was gonna be a failing proposition. He went back because he knew or he, he was confident that his father was going to be able to take care of him and would accept him back. Right. Otherwise, what would be the point of going back? It wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, um, a mission he expected to fail at.
He expected there to be a positive outcome or he wouldn't have done it. Like, it wouldn't make any sense to try that if there wasn't the hope of some sort of realistic option.
[00:41:09] Jesse Schwamb: And I think his confidence in that option, as you were saying, is in this way where he's constructed a transaction. Yeah. That he's gonna go back and say, if you'll just take me out as a slave, I know you have slaves, I will work for you.
Right. Therefore, I feel confident that you'll accept me under those terms because I'll humble myself. And why would you not want to remunerate? Me for the work that I put forward. So you're right, like it's, it's strange that he basically comes to this, I think, sense that slavery exists in his life and who would he rather be the slave of,
[00:41:38] Tony Arsenal: right?
[00:41:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so he says, listen, I'm gonna come to the father and give him this offer. And I'm very confident that given that offer and his behavior, what I know about how he treats his other slaves, that he will hire me back because there's work to do. And therefore, as a result of the work I put forward, he will take care of me.
How much of like contemporary theology is being preached in that very way right now?
[00:41:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:41:59] Jesse Schwamb: And that's really like why the minimum wages of sin is all of this stuff. It's death. It's the consequences that we're speaking about here. By the way, the idea about famine is really interesting. I hadn't thought about that.
It is interesting, again, that sin casts him out into this foreign place where the famine occurs. And that famine is the beginning of his realization of the true destruction, really how far he's devolved and degraded in his person and in his relationships and in his current states. And then of course, the Bible is replete with references and God moving through famine.
And whereas in Genesis, we have a local famine, essentially casting Joseph brothers into a foreign land to be freed and to be saved.
[00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: Right.
[00:42:40] Jesse Schwamb: We have the exact opposite, which is really kind of interesting. Yeah. So we probably should talk about, you know, verse 15 and the, and the pig stuff. I mean, I think the obvious statement here is that.
It would be scandalous, like a Jewish hero would certainly feel the shame of the pigs. They represent UNC cleanliness and social humiliation. I'm interested again, in, in this idea, like you've started us on that the freedom that this younger brother sought for becomes slavery. It's kind of bondage of the wills style.
Yeah. Stuff. There's like an, an attentiveness in the story to the degrading reversal in his condition. And it is interesting that we get there finally, like the bottom of the pit maybe, or the barrel is like you said, the pods, which it's a bit like looking at Tide pods and being like, these are delicious.
I wish I could just eat these. So I, I think your point isn't lost. Like it's not just that like he looked at something gross and was so his stomach was grumbling so much that he might find something in there that he would find palatable. It, it's more than that. It's like this is just total nonsense. It, this is Romans one.
[00:43:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these pods, like, these aren't, um, you know, I guess I, I don't know exactly what these are. I'm sure somebody has done all of the historical linguistic studies, but the Greek word is related to the, the word for keratin. So like the, the same, the same root word. And we have to be careful not to define a Greek word based on how we use it.
That's a reverse etymology fallacy. Like dunamis doesn't mean dynamite, it's the other direction. But the Greek word is used in other places, in Greek literature to describe like the horns of rhinoc, like,
[00:44:21] Jesse Schwamb: right,
[00:44:21] Tony Arsenal: this, these aren't like. These aren't pea pods. I've heard this described like these are like little vegetable pods.
No, this is like they're throwing pieces of bone to the pigs.
[00:44:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:44:31] Tony Arsenal: And the pigs, the pigs can manage it. And this is what this also like, reinforces how destitute and how deep the famine is. Like this isn't as though, like this is the normal food you give to pigs. Like usually you feed pigs, like you feed pigs, like the extra scraps from your table and like other kinds of like agricultural waste.
These are, these are like chunks of bony keratin that are being fed to the pigs. So that's how terrible the famine is that not even the pigs are able to get food.
[00:45:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:45:00] Tony Arsenal: They're given things that are basically inedible, but the pigs can manage it. And this, this kid is so hungry, he's so destitute that he says, man, I wish I could chew on those bony, those bony pods that I'm feeding them because that's how hungry and starved I am.
You get the picture that this, um. This lost son is actually probably not just metaphorically on the brink of death, but he's in real risk of starvation, real risk of death that he, he can't even steal. He can't even steal from the pigs what they're eating, right? Like he can't even, he can't even glean off of what the pigs are eating just to stay alive.
He, he's literally in a position where he has no hope of actually rescuing himself. The only thing that he can do, and this is the realization he has, the only thing he can do is throw himself back on the mercy of his father.
[00:45:50] Jesse Schwamb: That's
[00:45:50] Tony Arsenal: right. And, and hope, again, I think hope with confidence, but hope that his father will show mercy on him and his, his conception.
I wanna be careful in this parable not to, I, I think there's something to what you're getting at or kinda what you're hinting at, that like his conception of mercy is. Not the full picture of the gospel. Yes. His conception of mercy is that he's going to be able to go and work and be rewarded for his laborers in a way that he can survive.
And the gospel is so much broader and so much bigger than that. But at the same time, I think it's, it's actually also a confident hope, a faith-filled hope that his father's mercy is going to rescue him, is going to save him. So it is this picture of what we do. And, and I think, I think sometimes, um, I want to be careful how we say this 'cause I don't wanna, I don't want to get a bunch of angry emails and letters, but I think sometimes we, um, we make salvation too much of a theology test.
And there's probably people that are like, Tony, did you really just say that? I think there are people who trust in the Lord Jesus thinking that that means something akin to what. This lost son thinks
[00:47:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:47:03] Tony Arsenal: Exactly. They trust. They trust that Jesus is merciful and, and I'm not necessarily thinking of Roman Catholics.
I'm not thinking of Roman Catholic theology for sure. I do think there are a fair number of Roman Catholic individuals that fall into this category where they trust Jesus to save them. Right. They just don't fully understand exactly what Jesus means, what that means for them to be saved. They think that Christ is a savior who will provide a way for them to be saved by His grace that requires them to contribute something to it.
Arminians fall into that category. Right. I actually think, and I, I think there's gonna be if, if there's, if the one Lutheran who listens to our show hears this is gonna be mad, but I actually think Lutheran theology kind of falls into this in a sort of negative fashion in that you have to not resist grace in order to be saved.
So I think. That is something we should grapple with is that there are people who fit into that category, but this is still a faith-filled, hope-filled confidence in the mercy of the father in this parable that he's even willing to make the journey back. Right? This isn't like right, he walks from his house down the street or from the other side of town.
He's wandering back from a far country. He, he went into a far country. He has to come back from a far country. And yes, the father greets him from afar and sees him from afar. But we're not talking about like from a far country. Like he sees him coming down the road, it, he has to travel to him, and this is a picture of.
The hope and the faith that we have to have to return to God, to throw ourselves on the mercy of Christ, trusting that he has our best interest in mind, that he has died for us, and that it is for us. Right? There's the, the knowledge of what Christ has done, and then there's the ascent to the truth of it.
And then the final part of faith is the confidence or the, the faith in trust in the fact that, that is for me as well, right? This, this is a picture of that right here. I, I don't know why we thought we were gonna get through the whole thing in one week, Jesse. We're gonna spend at least two weeks on this lost son, or at least part of the second week here.
But he, this is, this is also like a picture of faith. This is why I say this as like a systematic theology lesson on soteriology all packed into here. Because not only do we have, like what is repentance and or what does regeneration look like? It's coming to himself. What does repentance look like? Yes.
Turning from your sins and coming back. What is, what is the orde solis? Well, there's a whole, there's a whole thing in here. What is the definition of faith? Well, he knows that his father is good. That he has more than enough food for his servants. He, uh, is willing to acknowledge the truth of that, and he's willing to trust in that, in that he's willing to walk back from a far country in order to lay claim to that or to try to lay claim to it.
That's a picture of faith right there, just in all three parts. Right. It's, it's really quite amazing how, how in depth this parable goes on this stuff,
[00:49:54] Jesse Schwamb: right? Yeah. It's wild to note that as he comes to himself, he's still working. Yeah, in that far off country. So this shows again that sin is this cruel master.
He hits the bottom, he wants the animal food, but he's still unfed. And this is all the while again, he has some kind of arrangement where he is trying to work his way out of that and he sees the desperation. And so I'm with you, you know, before coming to Christ, A person really, I think must come to themselves and that really is like to say they need to have a sober self-knowledge under God, right?
Yeah. Which is, as we said before, like all this talk about, well Jesus is the answer. We better be sure what the question is. And that question is who am I before God? And this is why, of course, you have to have the law and gospel, or you have to have the the bad news before you can have the good news. And really, there's all of this bad news that's delivered here and this repentance, like you've been saying, it's not just mere regret, we know this.
It's a turning, it's a reorientation back to the father. He says, I will arise and go to my father. So yeah, also it demonstrates to me. When we do come to ourselves when there's a sober self-knowledge under God, there is a true working out of salvation that necessarily requires and results in some kind of action, right?
And that is the mortification of sin that is moving toward God again, under his power and direction of the Holy Spirit. But still there is some kind of movement on our part. And so that I think is what leads then in verse 19, as you're saying, the son and I do love this 'cause I think this goes right back to like the true hope that he has, even though it might be slightly corrupted or slightly washed out because it's not like the full, bright colors of the gospel in its entirety.
But he doesn't deny that he's the son. He just ows that he's his worthiness. And so there's like a tender conscience somewhere in there concluding like I must, we can say like, well, I must not really be truly God's own, or God would never take me as I am. And so what we have here, I think is this lesson reminder of God, the difference between identity and harmony with God.
That harmony often gets disrupted because of our own sin, but this son here recognizes that he is still the son. And so I think he, he knows his father, like you're saying. I think he hopes for the best, but what he wants to put forward is, can I just come and be a slave in your house? Which incidentally is what he will become, but under better pretenses of saying, well, you will maintain you sonship because of some kind of meritorious earning, which is where we're all tempted to go because it feels better.
It feels more safe than trusting and embracing and receiving the fathers recklessly spend thrift love, which actually is the thing that keeps us in the identity of being a son or a daughter of God. So you're right, there's so much that's happening. Underneath there that, I mean, I'm sure some Puritan has written about that in probably 50,000 words.
[00:52:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:52:36] Jesse Schwamb: But there's so much there because I'm with you. I think there is a great hope because of understanding his identity, and yet he knows the harmony is disrupted to such a degree that what he also trusts in is that worst case scenario, I would rather be a slave for my father than I would rather be a slave to sin.
And I think only until you come to that place, only when you understand that you are a slave to something, into someone, that you actually start to ask, well, how good is my master? That there is a coming to yourself, which leads to repentance and God uses in his grand providence, all kinds of past, all kinds of undertakings, all kinds of campaigns, if you will, to bring us to that place.
But he must bring us to that place before we can have true repentance.
[00:53:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:20] Tony Arsenal: And, you know, we'll, we'll get into it more, but just because I, I don't feel great about, uh. Sort of throwing out the law in some ways and not finishing with the gospel.
[00:53:30] Jesse Schwamb: Let's get to the gospel.
[00:53:31] Tony Arsenal: The, the father's correction of this is again, like this is the systematic theology correction.
The son comes and he says, or he's planning on saying, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants. When we get to the father. The father cuts him off as I'm no longer worthy to be called your son.
[00:53:49] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right.
[00:53:49] Tony Arsenal: So he doesn't, he doesn't let him get to the point of, of proposing the meritorious salvation that he thought he was going to get.
He, he lets him acknowledge, right? He, the father, lets him acknowledge that he's no longer worthy of being his son, and then essentially says, but that doesn't matter because I am worthy of being your father, and I will make you my son again. That that's what he does. He brings the robe, he brings the sandal, he brings the ring, he restores and elevates him to a position of sonship that he didn't even before he left, didn't fully have.
We'll talk about that and we'll talk about it again. He, he doesn't come home and come back to being the second son. He comes back home. And this is part of why the older son is so annoyed, is he's actually elevated to the place of the firstborn.
[00:54:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: By, by begin being given all these symbols of inheritance.
And, and this is, you know, this is the other thing, and maybe we'll talk about this more when we get to the, get to what the father gives him. But in Jewish custom and in the Jewish law, the second born son would get, would get one third of the estate. And so he comes back and one third of, I mean, who knows?
We don't know how long this trip is. We don't know how long he's been gone. We don't know how, um, how much the estate has been rebuilt. Obviously, the father is still working. It's not as though like his estate is just like stagnant and neutral, but when he comes back, a third of the estate has been wiped out by his reckless living.
When he comes back, he's
basically
given all the symbols to say
that
he's now guaranteed to have
the,
the two thirds.
[00:55:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:55:23] Tony Arsenal: So he comes back to this position,
into this estate
where the father elevates him
back to and
above his previous station
of sonship.
That is the gospel of Jesus Christ
right there.
[00:55:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:55:34] Tony Arsenal: That's double imputation baked into the pie.
Amen. It's not,
it's not just that. He goes, well.
Yeah,
you spent all this stuff, but I guess
like we can,
we can overlook that. That would be more akin to come back.
You can
start at zero,
I guess.
Zero is a servant in my house.
Go ahead and
work your way back up if you can.
Right. He comes back and the father says like, well, I've been working hard. I mean, I'm kind of like importing this into the text a little bit, but I've been working hard to rebuild the estate while you were gone. You took a third of it and I've been working hard and now I'm granting you at the, at a minimum, like I'm granting you back what you took away, what you squandered.
I'm giving it back to you. I'm restoring you, not just to neutral. I'm restoring you to this place of positive, favorable, gracious, loving communion with me, such that I'm gonna celebrate, I'm gonna give you the best things. I'm gonna kill the animal, and we're gonna have the best feasts, we're gonna have the most fun, we're gonna celebrate because you're alive.
You're back, and you're alive. Right. That's an element that I had never even thought of in this. You know, the, the father is not supposed to be pictured in this parable as omniscient, right? He has to see the son coming back. I, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm my kid's only almost four years old, but I know a lot of people who have teenagers that they go out and like, they don't come back for days at a time.
And that's a terrifying thing for a parent. Now imagine if he was off in a far country and you don't have phones, you don't have a cell phone, you can't track him on your iPhone. This, this father is, so, he probably had counted his son as dead right there. There probably wasn't another conclusion to make that when he disappears like that, this is a, this is a real return and a real resurrection in a sense, in this parable that we, we should not overlook, right?
I think we think about the, the phrasing at the end there that your brother was lost and now he's fine. He was, he was dead and now he's alive. We think of that as like poetic or metaphorical or, or, or some sort of like hyperbolic statement. But in a very real sense in this instance, this son really did come back to life for this family and he was brought back to life and restored back to life by the grace of the father in in restoring him to this place of sonship.
[00:57:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. That initial interaction, that requesting, that demanding is like a severing of the relationship. Yeah. It's basically saying, I wish to go away and to disconnect with you completely as if you were dead and I was a different person.
[00:58:00] Jesse Schwamb: And so I think a great place to end, like you said, is let's be reminded that God's mercy is not reluctant, like God's mercy comes in hot.
The embrace comes faster than the son's repair attempts. That's exactly how God treats us. He delights to bring that mercy to his children when they come before him in repentance day after day after day. Thank goodness. Praise God that his mercies are new every day. And here there are mercies for this son Yeah. By the way, before we end, I have to ask Tony, what flavor is the double imputation pie? Is that like a, is it a fruit pie or is that like a more of a cold, like custard based pie?
[00:58:42] Tony Arsenal: Well, you know, we do have a precedent on this podcast of talking about Exactly. Salvation.
[00:58:46] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.
[00:58:46] Tony Arsenal: Being the pie or the cake, right?
So the cake is salvation. I don't know. Whatever it is, it's sweet and delicious. Maybe it's like a meat pie. Maybe it's like a good, like minced meat pie with all the, like, are you
[00:58:57] Jesse Schwamb: going
[00:58:57] Tony Arsenal: savory? Good protein? Yeah. Maybe it's a savory pie. Okay. I don't know.
[00:59:00] Jesse Schwamb: Okay.
[00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: I've never had a savory pie.
[00:59:02] Jesse Schwamb: I, I like, I, you know how you say that?
I haven't either, but I would love like, what's it like steak and kidney? Isn't that like a famous.
[00:59:09] Tony Arsenal: That sounds awful.
[00:59:11] Jesse Schwamb: Well, isn't that like a, listen, do we have any brothers, sisters who are listening in in any of like the, yeah, the United Kingdom. Where are you guys at? Yeah, Daniel is a steak and kidney.
Daniel, you
[00:59:19] Tony Arsenal: tell us. Daniel Steak and kidney a real thing.
[00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we need to know.
[00:59:24] Tony Arsenal: Okay.
[00:59:24] Jesse Schwamb: Is it good? Is it delicious? Would you describe it as a pie of double imputation again, steak, kidney? I'm thinking,
[00:59:34] Tony Arsenal: I don't even
[00:59:34] Jesse Schwamb: know. Tony's not, not convinced. So look at his face is like, we need to end this episode right
[00:59:39] Tony Arsenal: now.
Yeah. Well, Jesse, I know how to end the episode. It's funny, it's funny. People, I'm glad people picked up on the little joke from last week, although it wasn't really a joke.
[00:59:49] Jesse Schwamb: No.
[00:59:50] Tony Arsenal: And I still have this recurring nightmare than we're gonna forget how to end the podcast. But last week we were trying a, a slightly different recording setup.
[00:59:57] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:59:57] Tony Arsenal: And somehow, maybe this is our AI overlords playing some sort of joke on us. Somehow, right after talking about how we were gonna blow the ending, the system magically muted Jesse's microphone. I could see his hands. They were nowhere near the keyboard. There's no possible way
[01:00:13] Jesse Schwamb: in the air.
[01:00:14] Tony Arsenal: Just absolutely.
The, the, the phone was like, or the recording software was like, not today boys. So we're on a different platform this time. Hopefully it won't do it.
[01:00:25] Jesse Schwamb: We're about to find out.
[01:00:27] Tony Arsenal: We will. When I say until next time, Jesse Honor. Everyone
[01:00:33] Jesse Schwamb: just kidding. Everybody
[01:00:34] Tony Arsenal: love the brotherhood.
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What happens when a son demands his father's life essence, squanders it in a far country, and returns expecting servanthood? In this theologically rich episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conduct a detailed exegetical study of Luke 15:11-24, revealing how the Parable of the Lost Son illustrates the core doctrines of regeneration, repentance, and double imputation. Through careful attention to the Greek text and systematic theology, the hosts demonstrate how this familiar parable captures the entire ordo salutis—the order of salvation. From the son's rebellion and spiritual death to his miraculous "coming to himself" and the father's extravagant restoration, this episode unpacks the gospel embedded in one of Scripture's most beloved stories, showing how God's mercy isn't reluctant but runs to meet repentant sinners.
The Greek words used in this parable are theologically significant. When the son asks for "the share of property," Luke uses ousia (verse 12)—a word meaning "essence" or "being," familiar to students of Trinitarian theology. Later, the text says the father divided his bios (life) between them. As Tony Arsenal notes, these aren't the ordinary Greek words for material possessions. This linguistic choice reveals that the son isn't just asking for money—he's demanding his father's very life essence while rejecting the father himself.
This captures the core nature of sin and idolatry: we want God's blessings, provisions, and gifts while spurning relationship with Him. We desire heaven's benefits without heaven's God. We want meaning, purpose, love, and satisfaction—all gifts that flow from the Father—but we want them on our terms, in our timing, apart from submission to His lordship. The parable's opening immediately confronts us with the audacity of our own hearts, which daily make the same demand: "Give me what I want, and then leave me alone." Every act of sin is fundamentally this request: the demand for God's good gifts while rejecting the Giver.
Verse 14 marks a turning point: "When he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished." Jesse Schwamb's observation is crucial: "Providence exposes what sin conceals." The famine doesn't occur everywhere—only in the far country where the son has fled. This isn't random; it's part of the parable's theological architecture.
Sin promises freedom, pleasure, and satisfaction, but these promises are lies that only hardship exposes. The son believed his father's house was restrictive and that true life existed elsewhere. Only when famine struck did the deception become clear. God often uses difficulty not as mere punishment but as mercy—a severe mercy that strips away sin's facade and reveals its bankruptcy. The son needed to hit bottom, to desire even the inedible pods fed to pigs, before he could "come to himself."
This pattern appears throughout Scripture and Christian experience. God allows us to taste the bitter fruit of our choices, not because He delights in our suffering, but because He loves us too much to leave us comfortable in our delusions. Hardship becomes the catalyst for repentance, the circumstance that makes us reconsider what we've rejected. As C.S. Lewis wrote, "Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world." The famine was God's megaphone to this lost son.
When the father sees his son returning, he doesn't wait for the full confession. He doesn't require a probationary period of servanthood. He doesn't negotiate terms. Instead, he runs—a shocking image in ancient Middle Eastern culture where patriarchs maintained dignity—and embraces his son before any words are spoken. Then come the symbols: the best robe, a ring, and sandals.
These aren't random acts of generosity; they're covenant symbols of restored sonship and, remarkably, symbols of the firstborn's inheritance. The second-born son, who was entitled to one-third of the estate (which he'd already squandered), is now given the symbols that mark him as having the firstborn's two-thirds inheritance. He's elevated beyond his original position.
This is the gospel of double imputation in parable form. In justification, God doesn't merely forgive our sins (removing our debt); He credits us with Christ's perfect righteousness (giving us Christ's inheritance). We don't return to spiritual neutrality; we're adopted as sons and daughters, made co-heirs with Christ, given "every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 1:3). The father's response to the lost son illustrates what Paul teaches in Romans 5:1-2: we have not just peace with God but access into grace and the hope of glory. We're not merely forgiven servants—we're beloved children clothed in our Elder Brother's righteousness, welcomed into the family feast.
This son felt it was owed to him. Haven't we all done this to God? We take what we've been given by God, our very life, our very essence, we owe him everything, and we squander that on sinful, reckless living. That's just a slap in the face in the best way right out of the gate here. - Tony Arsenal
He comes to himself. There's nothing in the story that should prompt him to want to go back to his home, to think that his father could or would do anything about it, except that he comes to himself. He just comes to the realization that his father is a good man and is wise and has resources. That is a picture of regeneration. - Tony Arsenal
God's mercy is not reluctant. God's mercy comes in hot. The embrace comes faster than the son's repair attempts. That's exactly how God treats us. He delights to bring that mercy to his children when they come before him in repentance day after day after day. Thank goodness his mercies are new every day. - Jesse Schwamb
[00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: When he comes back, he's given all the symbols to say he's now guaranteed to have the two thirds.
So he comes back to this position, where the father elevates him above his previous station That is the gospel of Jesus Christ
that's double imputation baked into the pie. It's not just that. He goes, well. you spent all this stuff, but I guess we can overlook that. That would be more akin to come back. start at zero, Zero is a servant in my house. work your way back up if you can.
[00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 477 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:51] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.
[00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.
[00:00:56] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, it struck me that this whole thing we've been doing all this parable talk is really after the manner of God's words.
And one of the things I've really grown to appreciate is how God speaks to the condition of those whom he addresses. He considers our ability, our capacity as his hearers to process what he's saying, and that leads into these amazing parables that we've been talking about. He doesn't speak as he is able to speak.
So to speak, but I didn't mean that to happen. But as we were able to hear, and that means he spoke in these lovely parables so that we might better understand him. And today we're gonna get into some of the drama of the best, like the crown jewel as we've been saying, of maybe all the parables. The Parable of the Lost Son.
We spoke a little bit about it in the last episode. Definitely want to hit that up because it's setting you up for this one, which is the definitive episode. But now we're gonna talk about this first, this younger lost son. Get into some of all of these like juicy details about what takes place, and really, again, see if we can find the heart of God.
Spoiler. We can and we'll,
[00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: yeah,
[00:02:04] Jesse Schwamb: but before we do both of those things, it's of course always time at this moment to do a little affirming with or denying against. Of course, if you haven't heard us before, that's where we take a moment to say, is there something that we think is undervalued that we wanna bring forward that we'd recommend or think is awesome?
Or conversely, is there something that's overvalued that's just, we're over it. The vibe is done. We're gonna deny against that. So I say to you, as I often do, Tony, are you affirming with or deny against?
[00:02:31] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming tonight. Um, I don't know how much the audience realizes of a giant ridiculous nerd I am, but we're about to go to entirely new giant nerd depths.
[00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: All right. I
[00:02:43] Tony Arsenal: think,
[00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: let's hear it.
[00:02:44] Tony Arsenal: So, um, I was a huge fan of Stranger Things. Some, there's some issues with the show, and I understand why some people might not, um, might not feel great about watching it. You know, I think it falls within Christian liberty. But one of the main themes of the show, this is not a spoiler, you learn about this in episode one, is the whole game.
The whole show frames itself around Dungeons and Dragons, right? It's kind of like a storytelling device within the show that the kids play, Dungeons and Dragons, and everything that happens in the Dungeons and Dragons game that they're playing, sort of like, um, foreshadows what's actually gonna happen in the show.
Which funny if, you know Dungeons and Dragons lore, you kind of learn the entire plot of the story like ahead of time. Um, but so I, stranger Things just finished up and I've kind of been like itching to get into Dungeons and Dragons. I used to play a little bit of tabletop when I was in high school, in early college and um, I just really like the idea of sort of this collaborative storytelling game.
Um, whether it's Dungeon Dragons or one of the other systems, um, Dungeons and Dragons is the most popular. It's the most well published. It's the most well established and it's probably the easiest to find a group to play with. Although it is very hard to find a group to play with, especially, uh, kind of out in the middle of nowhere where I live.
So this is where the ultra super nerdy part comes in.
[00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, here we
[00:04:03] Tony Arsenal: go. I have been painstakingly over the last week teaching Google Gemini. To be a dungeon master for me. So I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons more or less by myself with, uh, with Google Gemini, and I'm just having a lot of fun with it.
Um, you can get a free copy of the rules online if you, I think it's DND, the letter NDND beyond.com. They have a full suite of like tools to create your character. Access to a basic set of the core rules. Um, you can spend a lot of money on Dungeons and Dragons, uh, and if you want to like really get into it, the books are basically textbooks.
Like you're buying $300 or 300 page, $300, 300 page textbooks, um, that are not all that differently costs than like college textbooks. You'll buy a 300 page Dungeon master guide that's like $50 if you want a paper copy. So, but you can get into it for free. You can get the free rolls online, you can use their dungeon, the d and d Beyond app and do all your dice rolls for free.
Um, you, you can get a free dice roller online if you don't want to do their, their app. Um, but it's just a lot of fun. I've just been having a lot of fun and I found that the, I mean. When you play a couple sessions with it, you see that the, the um, the A IDM that I've created, like it follows the same story beats 'cause it's only got so much to work with in its language model.
Um, but I'm finding ways to sort of like break it out of that model by forcing it to refer to certain websites that are like Dungeons and Dragons lore websites and things like build your, build your campaign from this repository of Dungeons and Dragons stuff. So. I think you could do this with just about any sort of narrative storytelling game like this, whether you're playing a different system or d and d Pathfinders.
I mean, there's all sorts of different versions of it, but it's just been a lot of fun to see, see it going. I'm trying to get a group together. 'cause I think I would, I would probably rather play Dungeons and Dragons with people, um, and rather do it in person. But it's hard to do up here. It's hard to get a, get a group going.
So that's my super nerdy affirmation. I'm not just affirming Dungeons and Dragons, which would already be super nerdy. I'm affirming playing it by myself on my phone, on the bus with Google Gemini, AI acting like I'm not. Just this weird antisocial lunatic. So I'm having a lot of fun with it.
[00:06:20] Jesse Schwamb: So there are so many levels of inception there.
Yeah. Like the inception and everything you just said. I love it.
[00:06:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, what I'm learning is, um, you can give an, and, and this is something I didn't realize, what ai, I guess I probably should have, you know, it's not like an infinite thing. Um, you can give an AI instructions and if your chat gets long enough, it actually isn't referring back to the very beginning of the chat most of the time.
Right. There's a, there's like a win context window of about 30 responses. So like if you tell the AI, don't roll the dice for me, like, let me roll dices that are related to my actions, eventually it will forget that. So part of what I've been doing is basically building, I'm using Google Gemini when the AI does something I don't want it to do, I say, you just did something I don't want it to do.
Gimme a diagnostic report of why you did that. It will explain to me why it did what it did. Right. Why it didn't observe the rules. And then I'm feeding that into another. Prompt that is helping me generate better prompts that it refers back to. So it's kind of this weird iterative, um, yeah, I, I don't, I'm like, I maybe I'm gonna create the singularity.
I'm not sure. Maybe this is gonna be possible. We should sit over the edge. It's gonna, it's gonna learn how to cast magic spells and it's gonna fire bolt us in the face or something like that. Right. But, uh, again, high risk. I, I, for one, welcome our AO AI dungeon masters. So check it out. You should try it.
If you could do this with chat GPT, you could do it with any ai. Um, it, it, it is going to get a little, I have the benefit because I have a Google Workspace account. I have access to Google Pro or the Gemini Pro, which is a better model for this kind of thing. But you could do this with, with chat GPT or something like that.
And it's gonna be more or less the same experience, I think. But I'm having a, I'm having a ton of fun with it. Um. Again, I, I, there's something about just this, Dungeons and Dragons at its core is a, it's like a, an exercise in joint storytelling, which is really fascinating and interesting to me. Um, and that's what most tabletop RPGs are like.
I suppose you get into something like War Hammer and it's a little bit more like a board. It's a mixture of that plus a board game. But Dungeons and Dragons, the DM is creating the, I mean, not the entire world, but is creating the narrative. And then you as a player are an actor within that narrative. And then there's a certain element of chance that dice rolls play.
But for the most part, um, you're driving the story along. You're telling the story together. So it's, it's pretty interesting. I've also been watching live recordings of Dungeons and Dragon Sessions on YouTube. Oh,
[00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: wow.
[00:08:51] Tony Arsenal: Like, there's a, there's a channel called Critical Role. Like these sessions are like three and a half hours long.
So, wow. I just kinda have 'em on in the background when I'm, when I'm, uh, working or if I'm, you know, doing something else. Um, but it's really interesting stuff. It's, it's pretty cool. I think it's fun. I'm a super nerd. I'm, I'm no shame in that. Um, I'm just really enjoying it.
[00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, nerdery is great. That's like part of the zeitgeist now.
Listen to culture. It's cool to be a nerd. I don't know much about d and d. I've heard a lot about this idea of this community that forms around. Yeah. The story, correct me if I'm wrong, can't these things go on for like years, decades?
[00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, yeah. Like, you can do there. There, some of this has made its way into the official rule books, but basically you could do what's called a one shot, which is like a self-contained story.
Usually a single session, you know, like you get a Dungeon master, game master, whichever you wanna call the person. Three to four, maybe five characters, player characters. And one session is usually about two hours long. So it's not like you sit down for 20 minutes, 30 minutes at a time and play this right.
And you could do a one shot, which is a story that's designed to, to live all within that two hour session. Um, some people will do it where there isn't really any planned like, outcome of the story. The, the DM just kind of makes up things to do as they go. And then you can have campaigns, which is like, sometimes it's like a series of one shots, but more, it is more like a long term serialized period, you know, serialized campaign where you're doing many, um, many, many kinds of, uh, things all in one driving to like a big epic goal or battle at the end, right?
Um, some groups stay together for a really long time and they might do multiple campaigns, so there's a lot to it. Game's been going on for like 50, 60, 70 years, something like that. I don't remember exactly when it started, but
[00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: yeah.
[00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, it's an old game. It's kinda like the doctor who of of poor games and it's like the original tabletop role playing game, I think.
[00:10:47] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Again, there's something really appealing to me about not just that cooperative storytelling, but cooperative gameplay. Everybody's kind of in it together for the most part. Yeah. Those conquest, as I understand them, are joint in nature. You build solidarity, but if you're meeting with people and having fun together and telling stories and interacting with one another, there's a lot of good that comes out of that stuff there.
A lot of lovely common grace in those kind of building, those long-term interactions, relationships, entertainment built on being together and having good, clean, fun together.
[00:11:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, it's, um. It's an interesting exercise. It's it, in some ways it's very much like improv. Like you, you think of like an improv comedy like show I've been to somewhere.
Like, you know, you go to the show and it's an improv troupe, but they're like calling people from the crowd up and asking them for like different scenarios they might do. It's kind of like that in that like the GM can plan a whole, can plan a whole thing. But if I as a player character, um. And I've done this to the virtual one just to see what it does, and it's done some interesting things.
One of the campaigns I was playing, I had rescued a merchant from some giant spiders and I was helping, like, I was helping like navigate them through the woods to the next town. And we kept on getting attacked and just outta nowhere. I was like, what if I sort of act as though I'm suspicious of this merchant now because why are we getting attacked all the time?
And so I, I typed in sort of like a little. A mini role play of me accusing this guy. And it was something like, Randall, we get, we're getting attacked a lot for a simple merchant, Randall merchant. What happens if I cast a tech magic? What am I gonna find? And he's like, I don't know what I'm gonna find. I know I don't know anything.
And then I cast a tech magic and it shifted. I mean, I don't know where the campaign was gonna go before that, but it shifted the whole thing now where the person who gave him the package he was carrying had betrayed him. It was, so that happens in real life too in these games, real life in these games.
That happens in real, in-person sessions too, where a player or a group of players may just decide instead of talking to the contact person that is supposed to give them the clue to find the dungeon they're supposed to go to, instead they ambush them and murder them in gold blood. And now the, the dungeon master has to figure out, how do I get them back to this dungeon when this is the only person that was supposed to know where it is?
So it, it does end up really stretching your thinking skills and sort of your improvisational skills. There's an element of, um, you know, like chance with the dice, um, I guess like the dice falls in the lot, but the lot is in the handle. Or like, obviously that's all ordained as well too, but there is this element of chance where even the DM doesn't get to determine everything.
Um, if, if I say I want to, I want to try to sneak into this room, but I'm a giant barbarian who has, you know, is wearing like chain mail, there's still a chance I could do it, but the dice roll determines that. It's not like the, the GM just says you can't do that. Um, so it's, it's a, I, I like it. I'm, I'm really looking forward to trying to, getting into it.
It is hard to start a group and to get going and, um, there's a part of me that's a little bit. Gun shy of maybe like getting too invested with a group of non-Christians for something like this. 'cause it can get a little weird sometimes. But I think that, I think that'll work out. It'll be fun. I know there's actually some people in our telegram chat.
Bing, bing, bing segue. There we go. There's some people in our telegram chat actually, that we're already planning to do a campaign. Um, so we might even do like a virtual reform brotherhood, Dungeons and Dragons group. So that might be a new sub channel in the telegram at some point.
[00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. You could jump right in.
Go to t.me back slash reform brotherhood.
[00:14:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming since I just spent the last 15 minutes gushing about my nerdy hobby?
[00:14:23] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, no, that was great. Can I, can I just say two things? One is, so you're basically saying it's a bit like, like a troll shows up and everybody's like, yes. And yeah.
So I love that idea. Second thing, which is follow up question, very brief. What kind of merchant was Randall.
[00:14:39] Tony Arsenal: Uh, he was a spice trader actually.
[00:14:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I don't trust that.
[00:14:43] Tony Arsenal: And, and silk, silk and spices.
[00:14:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's double, that's too strict.
[00:14:47] Tony Arsenal: He was actually good guy in the, in the story that developed out of this campaign.
He actually became part of my family and like, like, like got adopted into the family because he lost everything on his own. Randy we're
[00:15:00] Jesse Schwamb: talking about Randy.
[00:15:01] Tony Arsenal: Randy Randall with one L. Yeah. The AI was very specific about
that.
[00:15:05] Jesse Schwamb: There's, there's nothing about this guy I trust. I, is this still ongoing? Because I think he's just trying to make his way deeper in,
[00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: uh, no, no.
It, I'll, I'll wait for next week to tell you how much, even more nerdy this thing gets. But there's a whole thing that ha there was a whole thing out of this That's a tease. Tease. There was a, there was a horse and the horse died and there was lots of tears and there was a wedding and a baby. It was, it's all sorts of stuff going on in this campaign.
[00:15:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I'm sure. Randy was somewhere near that horse when it happened. Right?
[00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: It was his horse.
[00:15:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly. That's
[00:15:35] Tony Arsenal: exactly, he didn't, he didn't kill the horse. He had no power to knock down the bridge The horse was standing on.
[00:15:40] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, next week, I'm pretty sure that's what we're gonna learn is that it was all him.
[00:15:45] Tony Arsenal: Alright, Jesse, save us from this. Save us from this, please. Uh,
[00:15:49] Jesse Schwamb: no.
What
[00:15:50] Tony Arsenal: you affirming, this is
[00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: great.
[00:15:50] Jesse Schwamb: It's possible that there is a crossover between yours and mine if we consider. That the church is like playing a d and d game in the dungeon Masters Christ, and the campaigns, the gospel. So I was thinking maybe is it possible, uh, maybe this is just the, the theology of the cross, but that sometimes, like you need the denial to get to the affirmation.
Have we talked about that kind of truth? Yeah,
[00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: yeah,
[00:16:15] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. So here's a little bit of that. I'll be very, very brief and I'm using this not as like just one thing that happened today, but what I know is for sure happening all over the world. And I mean that very literally, not just figuratively when it comes to the body of Christ, the local church.
So it snowed here overnight. This was, this is the Lord's Day. We're hanging out in the Lord's Day, which is always a beautiful day to talk about God. And overnight it snowed. The snow stopped relatively late in the morning around the time that everybody would be saying, Hey, it's time to go and worship the Lord.
So for those in my area, I got up, we did the whole clearing off the Kai thing. I went to church and I was there a little bit early for a practice for music. And when I pulled in, there weren't many there yet, but the whole parking lot unplowed. So there's like three inches of snow, unplowed parking lot. So I guess the denial is like the plow people decided like, not this time I, I don't think so.
They understood they were contracted with the church, but my understanding is that when one of the deacons called, they were like, Ooh, yeah, we're like 35 minutes away right now, so that's gonna be a problem. So when I pulled in, here's what I was. Like surprise to find, but in a totally unexpected way, even though I understand what a surprise is.
And that is that, uh, that first the elders and the deacons, everybody was just decided we're going to shovel an entire parking lot. And at some point big, I was a little bit early there, but at some point then this massive text change just started with everybody, which was, Hey, when you come to church, bring your shovel.
And I, I will tell you like when I got out of the car. I was so like somebody was immediately running to clear a path with me. One of those like snow pushers, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like one, those beastly kind of like blade things.
[00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: Those things are, those things are the best.
[00:17:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You just run. And so you have never met a group of people that was more happy to shovel an entire large asphalt area, which normally shouldn't even be required.
And. It just struck me, even in hindsight now thinking about it, it was this lovely confluence of people serving each other and serving God. It was as if they got up that morning and said, do you know what would be the best thing in the world for me to do is to shovel. And so everybody was coming out.
Everybody was shoveling it. It was to protect everyone and to allow one into elaborate, one access. It was just incredible. And so I started this because the affirmation is, I know this happens in, in all of our churches, every God fearing God, loving God serving church, something like this is happening, I think on almost every Lord's day or maybe every day of the week in various capacities.
And I just think this is God's people coming together because everybody, I think when we sat down for the message was exhausted, but. But there was so much joy in doing this. I think what you normally would find to be a mundane and annoying task, and the fact that it wasn't just, it was redeemed as if like we, we found a greater purpose in it.
But that's, everyone saw this as a way to love each other and to love God, and it became unexpected worship in the parking lot. That's really what it was, and it was fantastic. I really almost hope that we just get rid of the plow company and just do it this way from now on. Yeah, so I'm affirming, recognize people, recognize brothers and sisters that your, your church is doing this stuff all the time and, and be a part of it.
Jump in with the kinda stuff because I love how it brings forward the gospel.
[00:19:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great story. It's a great, uh, a great example of the body of Christ being, what the body of Christ is and just pulling together to get it done. Um, which, you know, we do on a spiritual level, I think, more often than a physical level these days.
Right, right. But, um, that's great. I'm sitting here going three inches of snow. I would've just pulled into the lot and then pulled out of the lot. But New Hampshire, it hits different in New Hampshire. Like we all d have snow tires and four wheel drive.
[00:20:02] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's enough snow where it was like pretty wet and heavy that it, if, you know, you pack that stuff down, it gets slick.
You can't see the people, like you can't have your elderly people just flying in, coming in hot and then trying to get outta the vehicle, like making their way into church.
[00:20:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:20:15] Jesse Schwamb: So there was, there was a lot more of that. But I think again, you would, one of the options would've been like, Hey, why don't we shovel out some sp spaces for the, for those who need it, for, you know, those who need to have access in a way that's a little bit less encumbered.
Oh, no, no. These people are like, I see your challenge and I am going to shovel the entire parking lots.
[00:20:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It used to happen once in a while, uh, at the last church, uh, at, um, your dad's church. We would, where the plow would just not come on a Sunday morning or, or more often than not. Um, you know, what happens a lot of times is the plows don't want to come more than once.
Right. If they don't have to. Or sometimes they won't come if they think it's gonna melt because they don't want to deal with, uh, with like customers who are mad that you plowed and that it all melts. But either way, once in a while. The plow wouldn't come or it wouldn't come in time. And what we would do is instead of trying to shovel an entire driveway thing, we would just went, the first couple people who would get there, the young guys in the church, there was only a couple of us, but the younger guys in the church would just, we would just be making trips, helping people into the, yeah.
Helping people into the building. So, um, it was a pretty, you know, it was a small church, so it was like six trips and we'd have everybody in, but um, we just kind of, that was the way we pulled together. Um, yeah, that's a great, it's a great story. I love, I love stuff like that. Yeah, me too. Whether it's, whether it's, you know, plowing a, a parking lot with shovels instead of a plow, or it's just watching, um, watching the tables and the chairs from the fellowship, you know, all just like disappear because everybody's just, uh, picks up after themselves and cleans and stuff.
That's, that's like the most concrete example of the body of Christ doing what the body of Christ does. Um, it's always nice, you know, we always hear jokes about like, who can carry the most, the most chairs,
[00:22:04] Jesse Schwamb: most
[00:22:04] Tony Arsenal: chairs. Uh, I think it's true. Like a lot of times I think like I could do like seven or eight sometimes.
[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, you, that's, so, one more thing I wanna say. I, I wanted to tell you this privately, Tony, 'cause it just cracked me up 'cause I, you'll appreciate this. But now I'm realizing I think the brothers and sisters who listened to us talk for any length of time and in the context of this conversation, but the church will appreciate this too.
On my way out, I, I happened because I was there early and the snow was crazy. I parked way further out, way on the edge of the lot to just allow for greater access because of all the shoveling that was happening. And by the way, I really hope there were a ton of visitors this morning because they were like, wow, this, this church is wild.
They love to shovel their own lot and they're the happiest people doing it. Some sweaty person just ushered me in while they were casting snow. Like,
[00:22:47] Tony Arsenal: is this some new version of snake handling? You shovel your own lot and your impervious to back injuries.
[00:22:53] Jesse Schwamb: Uh. So I was walking out and as I walked past, uh, there was a, uh, two young gentlemen who were congregating by this very large lifted pickup truck, which I don't have much experience with, but it looked super cool and it was started, it was warming up, and they were just like casually, like in the way that only like people with large beards wearing flannel and Carhartt kind of do, like casually leaning against the truck, talking in a way that you're like, wow, these guys are rugged.
And they sound, they're super cool, and they're probably like in their twenties. And all I hear as I pass by is one guy going, yeah, well, I mean that's, I was, I said to them too, but I said, listen, I'd rather go to a church with God-fearing women than anywhere else.
[00:23:36] Tony Arsenal: Nice.
[00:23:37] Jesse Schwamb: I was just like, yep. On the prowl and I love it.
And they're not wrong. This is the place to be.
[00:23:42] Tony Arsenal: It is.
[00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This is the place to be. Yeah. So all kinds of, all kinds of good things I think going on in that in the house of the Lord and where wherever you're at, I would say be happy and be joyful and look for those things and participate in, like you said, whether it's physical or not, but as soon as you said like the, our young men, our youth somehow have this competition of when we need to like pack up the sanctuary.
How many chairs can I take at one time? Yeah. It's like the classic and it just happens. Nobody says like, okay, everybody line up. We're about to embark on the competition now. Like the strong man usher competition. It's just like, it just happens and
[00:24:17] Tony Arsenal: it's
[00:24:17] Jesse Schwamb: incredible.
[00:24:18] Tony Arsenal: I mean, peacocks fan out their tail feathers.
Young Christian guys fan out. All of the table chairs, chairs they can carry. It's uh, it's a real phenomena. So I feel like if you watch after a men's gathering, everybody is like carrying one chair at a time because they don't wanna hurt their backs and their arms. Oh, that's
[00:24:36] Jesse Schwamb: true. That's
[00:24:37] Tony Arsenal: what I do. Yeah.
But it's when the women are around, that's when you see guys carrying like 19 chairs. Yeah. Putting themselves in the hospital.
[00:24:42] Jesse Schwamb: That's what I, listen, it comes for all of us. Like I, you know, I'm certainly not young anymore by almost any definition, but even when I'm in the mix, I'm like, oh, I see you guys.
You wanna play this game? Mm-hmm. Let's do this. And then, you know, I'm stacking chairs until I hurt myself. So it's great. That's, that is what we do for each other. It's
[00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: just, I hurt my neck getting outta bed the other day. So it happens. It's real.
[00:25:05] Jesse Schwamb: The struggle. Yeah, the struggle is real.
[00:25:07] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of struggle, speaking of family issues, speaking of all kinds of drama, let's get into Luke 15 and let me read just, I would say the first part of this parable, which as we've agreed to talk about, if we can even get this far, it's just the younger son.
[00:25:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:25:25] Jesse Schwamb: And again, don't worry, we're gonna get to all of it, but let me read beginning in, uh, verse 11 here. This is Luke chapter 15. Come follow along as you will accept if you're operating heavy machinery. And Jesus said, A man had two sons and the younger of them said to his father, father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.
So he divided his wealth between them. And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country. And there he squandered his estate living recklessly. Now, when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country and it began to be impoverished.
So he went and hired himself to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. So he went and as he was desiring to be fed with the pods that the swine were eating because no one was giving anything to him. But when he came to himself, he said, how many of my father's men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger.
I'll rise up and go to my father, and I'll say to him, father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me as one of your hired men. So he rose up, came to his father, but while he was still a long way off. His father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him.
And the son said to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his slaves, quickly, bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet and bring the fat in calf and slaughter it and let us celebrate.
For the son of mine was dead and has come to life again. He was lost and he has been found and they began to celebrate.
[00:27:09] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a, um, such a, I don't know, like pivotal seminal parable in the Ministry of Christ. Um, it's one of those parables and we, we mentioned this briefly last week that even most.
It, it hasn't passed out of the cultural zeitgeist yet. A lot of biblical teaching has, I mean, a lot, I think a lot of things that used to be common knowledge where, where you could make a reference to something in the Bible and people would just get it. Um, even if they weren't Christian or weren't believers, they would still know what you were talking about.
There's a lot of things in the Bible that have passed out of that cultural memory. The, the parable of the prodigal son, lost son, however you wanna phrase it, um, that's not one of them. Right. So I think it's really important for us, um, and especially since it is such a beautiful picture of the gospel and it has so many different theological touch points, it's really incumbent on us to spend time thinking about this because I would be willing to bet that if you weave.
Elements of this parable into your conversations with nonbelievers that you are praying for and, and, you know, witnessing to and sharing the gospel with, if you weave this in there, you're gonna help like plant some seeds that when it comes time to try to harvest, are gonna pay dividends. Right. So I think it's a really, it's a really great thing that we're gonna be able to spend, you know, a couple weeks really just digging into this.
[00:28:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and to define the beginning, maybe from the end, just slightly here, I like what you said about this cultural acknowledgement of this. I think one of the correctives we can provide, which is clear in the story, is in the general cultural sense. We speak of this prodigal as something that just returns comes back, was lost, but now is found.
And often maybe there is this component of, in the familial relationship, it's as if they've been restored. Here we're gonna of course find that this coming to one senses is in fact the work of God. That there is, again, a little bit of denial that has to bring forward the affirmation here that is the return.
And so again, from the beginning here, we're just talking about the younger son. We have more than youthful ambition.
[00:29:19] Jesse Schwamb: This heart of, give me the stuff now, like so many have said before, is really to say. Give me the gifts and not you, which is, I think, a common fault of all Christians. We think, for instance of heaven, and we think of all the blessings that come with it, but not necessarily of the joy of just being with our savior, being with Christ.
And I think there's something here right from the beginning, there's a little bit of this betrayal in showing idolatry, the ugliness of treating God's gifts as if there's something owed. And then this idea that of course. He receives these things and imme more or less immediately sometime after he goes and takes these things and squanderers them.
And sin and idolatry, I think tends to accelerate in this way. The distance from the father becomes distance from wisdom. We are pulled away from that, which is good. The father here being in his presence and being under his care and his wisdom and in his fear of influence and concern, desiring then to say, I don't want you just give me the gifts that you allegedly owe me.
And then you see how quickly like sin does everything you, we always say like, sin always costs more than you want to pay. And it always takes you further than you want to go. And that's exactly what we see here. Like encapsulated in an actual story of relationship and distance.
[00:30:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think, um.
It's interesting to me.
[00:30:39] Tony Arsenal: You know, I, I, I'm a big fan of saying you don't need to study Greek to understand your Bible, but I'm also a big fan of saying understanding a little bit of Greek is really helpful. And one of the things that I think is really intriguing, and I haven't quite parsed out exactly what I think this means, but the word property in this parable, it actually is two different Greek words that is translated as property, at least in the ESV.
And neither one of them really fit. What our normal understanding of property would be. And there are Greek words that refer to like all of your material possessions, but it says, father, give me the share of property. And he uses the word usia, which those of us who have heard anything about the trinity, which is all of us, um, know that that word means something about existence.
It's the core essence of a person. So it says, father, give me the share of usia that is coming to me. And then it says, and he divided his bias, his, his life between them. Then it says, not many days later, the younger son gathered all that he had took a journey into the far country. There he squandered his usia again.
So this, this parable, Christ is not using the ordinary words to refer to material, uh, material accumulation and property like. I think probably, you know, Christ isn't like randomly using these words. So there probably is an element that these were somehow figuratively used of one's life possessions. But the fact that he's using them in these particular ways, I think is significant.
[00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: And so the, the, the younger son here, and I don't even like calling this the prodigal sun parable because the word prodigal doesn't like the equivalent word in Greek doesn't appear in this passage. And prodigal doesn't mean like the lost in returned, like prodigal is a word that means like the one who spends lavishly, right?
So we call him the prodigal son because he went and he squandered all of his stuff and he spent all of his money. So it doesn't even really describe the main feature or the main point of why this, this parable is here. It's just sort of like a random adjective that gets attached to it. But all of that aside, um.
This parable starts off not just about wasting our property, like wasting our things, but it's a parable that even within the very embedded language of the parable itself is talking about squandering our very life, our very essence, our very existence is squandered and wasted as we depart from the Father.
Right? And this is so like, um, it's almost so on the head, on the on the nose that it's almost a little like, really Jesus. Like this is, this is so like, slap you in the face kind of stuff. This is right outta like Romans, uh, Romans one, like they did not give thanks to God. They did not show gratitude to God or acknowledge him as God.
This is what's happening in this parable. The son doesn't go to his father and say, father, I love you. I'm so happy to stay with you. I'm so happy to be here. He, he basically says like. Give me your very life essence, and I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go spend it on prostitutes. I'm gonna go waste your life, father, I'm gonna waste your life, your existence, your bias.
I'm gonna go take that and I'm gonna squander it on reckless living. And I guess we don't know for sure. He, it doesn't say he spends it on prostitutes. That's something his brother says later and assumes he did. So I, I don't know that we do that. But either way, I'm gonna take what's yours, your very life, your very essence.
And also that my life, my essence, the gift you've given me as my father, you've given me my life. In addition now to your life or a portion of your life. And I'm gonna go squander that on reckless living, right? Like, how much of a picture of sin is that, that we, we take what we've been given by God, our very life, our very essence, we owe him everything, and we squander that on sinful, reckless living.
That that's just a slap in the face in the best way right out of the gate here.
[00:34:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that, that's a great point because it's, it would be one thing to rebel over disobedience, another thing to use the very life essence that you've been given for destructive, self-destructive purposes. And then to use that very energy, which is not yours to begin with, but has been imbued in yours, external, all of these things.
And then to use that very thing as the force of your rebellion. So it's double insult all the way around. I'm with you in the use of Greek there. Thank you. Locus Bio software. Not a sponsor of the podcast, but could be. And I think that's why sometimes in translations you get the word like a state because it's like the closest thing we can have to understanding that it's property earned through someone's life more or less.
Yeah. And then is passed down, but as representative, not just of like, here's like 20 bucks of cash, but something that I spent all of me trying to earn and. And to your point, also emphasizing in the same way that this son felt it was owed him. So it's like really bad all around and I think we would really be doing ourselves a disservice if we didn't think that there's like a little bit of Paul washer saying in this, like I'm talking about you though.
So like just be like, look at how disrespectful the sun is. Yeah. Haven't we all done this? To God and bringing up the idea of prodigal being, so that, that is like the amazing juxtaposition, isn't it? Like Prodigal is, is spent recklessly, parsimonious would be like to, to save recklessly, so to speak. And then you have the love the father demonstrates coming against all of that in the same way with like a totally different kind of force.
So.
[00:36:02] Jesse Schwamb: What I find interesting, and I think this is like set up in exactly what you said, is that when you get to verse 14 and this famine comes, it's showing us, I think that like providence exposes what Sin conceals.
[00:36:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:36:16] Jesse Schwamb: And want arrives. Not just because like the money ran out, but because again, like these idols, what he's replaced the father with, they don't satisfy.
And repentance then often begins when God shows the emptiness of light apart life apart from him. That's like the affirmation being born out of the denial. And so I think that this also is evolving for us, this idea that God is going to use hardship, not as mere punishment, but as mercy that wakes us up and that the son here is being woken up, but not, of course, it's not as if he goes into the land, like you said, starts to spend, is like, whoa, hold on a second.
This seems like a bad idea. It's not until all of that sin ever, like the worship of false things collapses under its own weight before it, which is like the precursor of the antecedent, I think, to this grand repentance or this waking up.
[00:37:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I also think it's, um.
[00:37:08] Tony Arsenal: A feature of this that I haven't reflected on too deeply, but is, is worth thinking about is the famine that's described here only occurs in this far country that he's in.
[00:37:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:37:17] Tony Arsenal: Right. So even that's right. And this is like a multitude of foolish decisions. This is compounding foolish decisions that don't, don't make any sense. Like they don't really actually make any sense. Um. There's not a logic to this, this lost son's decision making. He takes the property. Okay. I guess maybe like you could be anxious to get your inheritance, but then like he takes it to a far country.
Like there's no reason for him to do that. If at any point through this sort of insane process he had stopped short, he would not have been in the situation he was in. Yes. And that, I love that phrase, that providence, you know, reveals, I don't know exactly how you said it, but like providence reveals what our sin can bring to us.
Like he first see sins against his father by sort of like demanding, demanding his inheritance early. Then he takes it and he leaves his country for no reason. He goes to this far country, then he spends everything and then the famine arises. Right? And the famine arises in this other country.
[00:38:13] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:38:13] Tony Arsenal: And that's, I think that is still again, like a picture of sin.
Like we. We don't just, we don't just take what the father has and, and like spend it like that would be bad enough if we weren't grateful for what we have and what we've been given, and we just waste it. But on top of that, now we also have taken ourselves to a far country. Like we've gone away from the good, the good land of the Lord, as those who are not regenerate.
We've gone away from the, the Lord into this far country. And it's not until we start to have this famine that we recognize what we've done. And again, this is, this is where I think we get a picture. There's so many theological, like points in this parable particular that it almost feels a little bit like a, like a.
Parable that's intended to teach some systematic theology about for sure, the oral salus, which I think there's probably a lot of like biblical theology people that are ready to just crawl through the screen and strangle me for saying that. But this is such a glorious picture of, of regeneration too.
[00:39:16] Tony Arsenal: Like he comes to himself, there's nothing, there's nothing in the story that's like, oh, and the servant that he was, the other servant he was talking to mentioned that the famine, like there's nothing here that should prompt him to want to go back to his home, to think that his father could or would do anything about it, except that he comes to himself.
He just comes to the realization that his father is a good man and is wise and has resources, and has takes care of his, of his servants on top of how he takes care of his sons. That is a picture of regeneration. There's no, yeah. Logical, like I'm thinking my way into it, he just one day realizes how much, how many of my father's servants have more than enough bread.
Right. But I'm perishing here in this, this foolish other country with nothing. Right. I can't even, and the, the pods that the pigs ate, we can even, we can get into the pods a little bit here, but like. He wants to eat the pods. The pods that he's giving the pigs are not something that's even edible to humans.
He's that destitute, that he's willing to eat these pods that are like, this is the leftover stuff that you throw to the pigs because no, no, nobody and nothing else can actually eat it. And that's the state he's in at the very bottom, in the very end of himself where he realizes my father is good and he loves me, and even if I can never be his son again, surely he'll take care of me.
I mentioned it last week, like he wasn't going back thinking that this was gonna be a failing proposition. He went back because he knew or he, he was confident that his father was going to be able to take care of him and would accept him back. Right. Otherwise, what would be the point of going back? It wasn't like a, it wasn't like a, um, a mission he expected to fail at.
He expected there to be a positive outcome or he wouldn't have done it. Like, it wouldn't make any sense to try that if there wasn't the hope of some sort of realistic option.
[00:41:09] Jesse Schwamb: And I think his confidence in that option, as you were saying, is in this way where he's constructed a transaction. Yeah. That he's gonna go back and say, if you'll just take me out as a slave, I know you have slaves, I will work for you.
Right. Therefore, I feel confident that you'll accept me under those terms because I'll humble myself. And why would you not want to remunerate? Me for the work that I put forward. So you're right, like it's, it's strange that he basically comes to this, I think, sense that slavery exists in his life and who would he rather be the slave of,
[00:41:38] Tony Arsenal: right?
[00:41:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so he says, listen, I'm gonna come to the father and give him this offer. And I'm very confident that given that offer and his behavior, what I know about how he treats his other slaves, that he will hire me back because there's work to do. And therefore, as a result of the work I put forward, he will take care of me.
How much of like contemporary theology is being preached in that very way right now?
[00:41:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:41:59] Jesse Schwamb: And that's really like why the minimum wages of sin is all of this stuff. It's death. It's the consequences that we're speaking about here. By the way, the idea about famine is really interesting. I hadn't thought about that.
It is interesting, again, that sin casts him out into this foreign place where the famine occurs. And that famine is the beginning of his realization of the true destruction, really how far he's devolved and degraded in his person and in his relationships and in his current states. And then of course, the Bible is replete with references and God moving through famine.
And whereas in Genesis, we have a local famine, essentially casting Joseph brothers into a foreign land to be freed and to be saved.
[00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: Right.
[00:42:40] Jesse Schwamb: We have the exact opposite, which is really kind of interesting. Yeah. So we probably should talk about, you know, verse 15 and the, and the pig stuff. I mean, I think the obvious statement here is that.
It would be scandalous, like a Jewish hero would certainly feel the shame of the pigs. They represent UNC cleanliness and social humiliation. I'm interested again, in, in this idea, like you've started us on that the freedom that this younger brother sought for becomes slavery. It's kind of bondage of the wills style.
Yeah. Stuff. There's like an, an attentiveness in the story to the degrading reversal in his condition. And it is interesting that we get there finally, like the bottom of the pit maybe, or the barrel is like you said, the pods, which it's a bit like looking at Tide pods and being like, these are delicious.
I wish I could just eat these. So I, I think your point isn't lost. Like it's not just that like he looked at something gross and was so his stomach was grumbling so much that he might find something in there that he would find palatable. It, it's more than that. It's like this is just total nonsense. It, this is Romans one.
[00:43:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these pods, like, these aren't, um, you know, I guess I, I don't know exactly what these are. I'm sure somebody has done all of the historical linguistic studies, but the Greek word is related to the, the word for keratin. So like the, the same, the same root word. And we have to be careful not to define a Greek word based on how we use it.
That's a reverse etymology fallacy. Like dunamis doesn't mean dynamite, it's the other direction. But the Greek word is used in other places, in Greek literature to describe like the horns of rhinoc, like,
[00:44:21] Jesse Schwamb: right,
[00:44:21] Tony Arsenal: this, these aren't like. These aren't pea pods. I've heard this described like these are like little vegetable pods.
No, this is like they're throwing pieces of bone to the pigs.
[00:44:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:44:31] Tony Arsenal: And the pigs, the pigs can manage it. And this is what this also like, reinforces how destitute and how deep the famine is. Like this isn't as though, like this is the normal food you give to pigs. Like usually you feed pigs, like you feed pigs, like the extra scraps from your table and like other kinds of like agricultural waste.
These are, these are like chunks of bony keratin that are being fed to the pigs. So that's how terrible the famine is that not even the pigs are able to get food.
[00:45:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:45:00] Tony Arsenal: They're given things that are basically inedible, but the pigs can manage it. And this, this kid is so hungry, he's so destitute that he says, man, I wish I could chew on those bony, those bony pods that I'm feeding them because that's how hungry and starved I am.
You get the picture that this, um. This lost son is actually probably not just metaphorically on the brink of death, but he's in real risk of starvation, real risk of death that he, he can't even steal. He can't even steal from the pigs what they're eating, right? Like he can't even, he can't even glean off of what the pigs are eating just to stay alive.
He, he's literally in a position where he has no hope of actually rescuing himself. The only thing that he can do, and this is the realization he has, the only thing he can do is throw himself back on the mercy of his father.
[00:45:50] Jesse Schwamb: That's
[00:45:50] Tony Arsenal: right. And, and hope, again, I think hope with confidence, but hope that his father will show mercy on him and his, his conception.
I wanna be careful in this parable not to, I, I think there's something to what you're getting at or kinda what you're hinting at, that like his conception of mercy is. Not the full picture of the gospel. Yes. His conception of mercy is that he's going to be able to go and work and be rewarded for his laborers in a way that he can survive.
And the gospel is so much broader and so much bigger than that. But at the same time, I think it's, it's actually also a confident hope, a faith-filled hope that his father's mercy is going to rescue him, is going to save him. So it is this picture of what we do. And, and I think, I think sometimes, um, I want to be careful how we say this 'cause I don't wanna, I don't want to get a bunch of angry emails and letters, but I think sometimes we, um, we make salvation too much of a theology test.
And there's probably people that are like, Tony, did you really just say that? I think there are people who trust in the Lord Jesus thinking that that means something akin to what. This lost son thinks
[00:47:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:47:03] Tony Arsenal: Exactly. They trust. They trust that Jesus is merciful and, and I'm not necessarily thinking of Roman Catholics.
I'm not thinking of Roman Catholic theology for sure. I do think there are a fair number of Roman Catholic individuals that fall into this category where they trust Jesus to save them. Right. They just don't fully understand exactly what Jesus means, what that means for them to be saved. They think that Christ is a savior who will provide a way for them to be saved by His grace that requires them to contribute something to it.
Arminians fall into that category. Right. I actually think, and I, I think there's gonna be if, if there's, if the one Lutheran who listens to our show hears this is gonna be mad, but I actually think Lutheran theology kind of falls into this in a sort of negative fashion in that you have to not resist grace in order to be saved.
So I think. That is something we should grapple with is that there are people who fit into that category, but this is still a faith-filled, hope-filled confidence in the mercy of the father in this parable that he's even willing to make the journey back. Right? This isn't like right, he walks from his house down the street or from the other side of town.
He's wandering back from a far country. He, he went into a far country. He has to come back from a far country. And yes, the father greets him from afar and sees him from afar. But we're not talking about like from a far country. Like he sees him coming down the road, it, he has to travel to him, and this is a picture of.
The hope and the faith that we have to have to return to God, to throw ourselves on the mercy of Christ, trusting that he has our best interest in mind, that he has died for us, and that it is for us. Right? There's the, the knowledge of what Christ has done, and then there's the ascent to the truth of it.
And then the final part of faith is the confidence or the, the faith in trust in the fact that, that is for me as well, right? This, this is a picture of that right here. I, I don't know why we thought we were gonna get through the whole thing in one week, Jesse. We're gonna spend at least two weeks on this lost son, or at least part of the second week here.
But he, this is, this is also like a picture of faith. This is why I say this as like a systematic theology lesson on soteriology all packed into here. Because not only do we have, like what is repentance and or what does regeneration look like? It's coming to himself. What does repentance look like? Yes.
Turning from your sins and coming back. What is, what is the orde solis? Well, there's a whole, there's a whole thing in here. What is the definition of faith? Well, he knows that his father is good. That he has more than enough food for his servants. He, uh, is willing to acknowledge the truth of that, and he's willing to trust in that, in that he's willing to walk back from a far country in order to lay claim to that or to try to lay claim to it.
That's a picture of faith right there, just in all three parts. Right. It's, it's really quite amazing how, how in depth this parable goes on this stuff,
[00:49:54] Jesse Schwamb: right? Yeah. It's wild to note that as he comes to himself, he's still working. Yeah, in that far off country. So this shows again that sin is this cruel master.
He hits the bottom, he wants the animal food, but he's still unfed. And this is all the while again, he has some kind of arrangement where he is trying to work his way out of that and he sees the desperation. And so I'm with you, you know, before coming to Christ, A person really, I think must come to themselves and that really is like to say they need to have a sober self-knowledge under God, right?
Yeah. Which is, as we said before, like all this talk about, well Jesus is the answer. We better be sure what the question is. And that question is who am I before God? And this is why, of course, you have to have the law and gospel, or you have to have the the bad news before you can have the good news. And really, there's all of this bad news that's delivered here and this repentance, like you've been saying, it's not just mere regret, we know this.
It's a turning, it's a reorientation back to the father. He says, I will arise and go to my father. So yeah, also it demonstrates to me. When we do come to ourselves when there's a sober self-knowledge under God, there is a true working out of salvation that necessarily requires and results in some kind of action, right?
And that is the mortification of sin that is moving toward God again, under his power and direction of the Holy Spirit. But still there is some kind of movement on our part. And so that I think is what leads then in verse 19, as you're saying, the son and I do love this 'cause I think this goes right back to like the true hope that he has, even though it might be slightly corrupted or slightly washed out because it's not like the full, bright colors of the gospel in its entirety.
But he doesn't deny that he's the son. He just ows that he's his worthiness. And so there's like a tender conscience somewhere in there concluding like I must, we can say like, well, I must not really be truly God's own, or God would never take me as I am. And so what we have here, I think is this lesson reminder of God, the difference between identity and harmony with God.
That harmony often gets disrupted because of our own sin, but this son here recognizes that he is still the son. And so I think he, he knows his father, like you're saying. I think he hopes for the best, but what he wants to put forward is, can I just come and be a slave in your house? Which incidentally is what he will become, but under better pretenses of saying, well, you will maintain you sonship because of some kind of meritorious earning, which is where we're all tempted to go because it feels better.
It feels more safe than trusting and embracing and receiving the fathers recklessly spend thrift love, which actually is the thing that keeps us in the identity of being a son or a daughter of God. So you're right, there's so much that's happening. Underneath there that, I mean, I'm sure some Puritan has written about that in probably 50,000 words.
[00:52:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:52:36] Jesse Schwamb: But there's so much there because I'm with you. I think there is a great hope because of understanding his identity, and yet he knows the harmony is disrupted to such a degree that what he also trusts in is that worst case scenario, I would rather be a slave for my father than I would rather be a slave to sin.
And I think only until you come to that place, only when you understand that you are a slave to something, into someone, that you actually start to ask, well, how good is my master? That there is a coming to yourself, which leads to repentance and God uses in his grand providence, all kinds of past, all kinds of undertakings, all kinds of campaigns, if you will, to bring us to that place.
But he must bring us to that place before we can have true repentance.
[00:53:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:20] Tony Arsenal: And, you know, we'll, we'll get into it more, but just because I, I don't feel great about, uh. Sort of throwing out the law in some ways and not finishing with the gospel.
[00:53:30] Jesse Schwamb: Let's get to the gospel.
[00:53:31] Tony Arsenal: The, the father's correction of this is again, like this is the systematic theology correction.
The son comes and he says, or he's planning on saying, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants. When we get to the father. The father cuts him off as I'm no longer worthy to be called your son.
[00:53:49] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right.
[00:53:49] Tony Arsenal: So he doesn't, he doesn't let him get to the point of, of proposing the meritorious salvation that he thought he was going to get.
He, he lets him acknowledge, right? He, the father, lets him acknowledge that he's no longer worthy of being his son, and then essentially says, but that doesn't matter because I am worthy of being your father, and I will make you my son again. That that's what he does. He brings the robe, he brings the sandal, he brings the ring, he restores and elevates him to a position of sonship that he didn't even before he left, didn't fully have.
We'll talk about that and we'll talk about it again. He, he doesn't come home and come back to being the second son. He comes back home. And this is part of why the older son is so annoyed, is he's actually elevated to the place of the firstborn.
[00:54:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: By, by begin being given all these symbols of inheritance.
And, and this is, you know, this is the other thing, and maybe we'll talk about this more when we get to the, get to what the father gives him. But in Jewish custom and in the Jewish law, the second born son would get, would get one third of the estate. And so he comes back and one third of, I mean, who knows?
We don't know how long this trip is. We don't know how long he's been gone. We don't know how, um, how much the estate has been rebuilt. Obviously, the father is still working. It's not as though like his estate is just like stagnant and neutral, but when he comes back, a third of the estate has been wiped out by his reckless living.
When he comes back, he's
basically
given all the symbols to say
that
he's now guaranteed to have
the,
the two thirds.
[00:55:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:55:23] Tony Arsenal: So he comes back to this position,
into this estate
where the father elevates him
back to and
above his previous station
of sonship.
That is the gospel of Jesus Christ
right there.
[00:55:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:55:34] Tony Arsenal: That's double imputation baked into the pie.
Amen. It's not,
it's not just that. He goes, well.
Yeah,
you spent all this stuff, but I guess
like we can,
we can overlook that. That would be more akin to come back.
You can
start at zero,
I guess.
Zero is a servant in my house.
Go ahead and
work your way back up if you can.
Right. He comes back and the father says like, well, I've been working hard. I mean, I'm kind of like importing this into the text a little bit, but I've been working hard to rebuild the estate while you were gone. You took a third of it and I've been working hard and now I'm granting you at the, at a minimum, like I'm granting you back what you took away, what you squandered.
I'm giving it back to you. I'm restoring you, not just to neutral. I'm restoring you to this place of positive, favorable, gracious, loving communion with me, such that I'm gonna celebrate, I'm gonna give you the best things. I'm gonna kill the animal, and we're gonna have the best feasts, we're gonna have the most fun, we're gonna celebrate because you're alive.
You're back, and you're alive. Right. That's an element that I had never even thought of in this. You know, the, the father is not supposed to be pictured in this parable as omniscient, right? He has to see the son coming back. I, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm my kid's only almost four years old, but I know a lot of people who have teenagers that they go out and like, they don't come back for days at a time.
And that's a terrifying thing for a parent. Now imagine if he was off in a far country and you don't have phones, you don't have a cell phone, you can't track him on your iPhone. This, this father is, so, he probably had counted his son as dead right there. There probably wasn't another conclusion to make that when he disappears like that, this is a, this is a real return and a real resurrection in a sense, in this parable that we, we should not overlook, right?
I think we think about the, the phrasing at the end there that your brother was lost and now he's fine. He was, he was dead and now he's alive. We think of that as like poetic or metaphorical or, or, or some sort of like hyperbolic statement. But in a very real sense in this instance, this son really did come back to life for this family and he was brought back to life and restored back to life by the grace of the father in in restoring him to this place of sonship.
[00:57:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. That initial interaction, that requesting, that demanding is like a severing of the relationship. Yeah. It's basically saying, I wish to go away and to disconnect with you completely as if you were dead and I was a different person.
[00:58:00] Jesse Schwamb: And so I think a great place to end, like you said, is let's be reminded that God's mercy is not reluctant, like God's mercy comes in hot.
The embrace comes faster than the son's repair attempts. That's exactly how God treats us. He delights to bring that mercy to his children when they come before him in repentance day after day after day. Thank goodness. Praise God that his mercies are new every day. And here there are mercies for this son Yeah. By the way, before we end, I have to ask Tony, what flavor is the double imputation pie? Is that like a, is it a fruit pie or is that like a more of a cold, like custard based pie?
[00:58:42] Tony Arsenal: Well, you know, we do have a precedent on this podcast of talking about Exactly. Salvation.
[00:58:46] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.
[00:58:46] Tony Arsenal: Being the pie or the cake, right?
So the cake is salvation. I don't know. Whatever it is, it's sweet and delicious. Maybe it's like a meat pie. Maybe it's like a good, like minced meat pie with all the, like, are you
[00:58:57] Jesse Schwamb: going
[00:58:57] Tony Arsenal: savory? Good protein? Yeah. Maybe it's a savory pie. Okay. I don't know.
[00:59:00] Jesse Schwamb: Okay.
[00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: I've never had a savory pie.
[00:59:02] Jesse Schwamb: I, I like, I, you know how you say that?
I haven't either, but I would love like, what's it like steak and kidney? Isn't that like a famous.
[00:59:09] Tony Arsenal: That sounds awful.
[00:59:11] Jesse Schwamb: Well, isn't that like a, listen, do we have any brothers, sisters who are listening in in any of like the, yeah, the United Kingdom. Where are you guys at? Yeah, Daniel is a steak and kidney.
Daniel, you
[00:59:19] Tony Arsenal: tell us. Daniel Steak and kidney a real thing.
[00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we need to know.
[00:59:24] Tony Arsenal: Okay.
[00:59:24] Jesse Schwamb: Is it good? Is it delicious? Would you describe it as a pie of double imputation again, steak, kidney? I'm thinking,
[00:59:34] Tony Arsenal: I don't even
[00:59:34] Jesse Schwamb: know. Tony's not, not convinced. So look at his face is like, we need to end this episode right
[00:59:39] Tony Arsenal: now.
Yeah. Well, Jesse, I know how to end the episode. It's funny, it's funny. People, I'm glad people picked up on the little joke from last week, although it wasn't really a joke.
[00:59:49] Jesse Schwamb: No.
[00:59:50] Tony Arsenal: And I still have this recurring nightmare than we're gonna forget how to end the podcast. But last week we were trying a, a slightly different recording setup.
[00:59:57] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:59:57] Tony Arsenal: And somehow, maybe this is our AI overlords playing some sort of joke on us. Somehow, right after talking about how we were gonna blow the ending, the system magically muted Jesse's microphone. I could see his hands. They were nowhere near the keyboard. There's no possible way
[01:00:13] Jesse Schwamb: in the air.
[01:00:14] Tony Arsenal: Just absolutely.
The, the, the phone was like, or the recording software was like, not today boys. So we're on a different platform this time. Hopefully it won't do it.
[01:00:25] Jesse Schwamb: We're about to find out.
[01:00:27] Tony Arsenal: We will. When I say until next time, Jesse Honor. Everyone
[01:00:33] Jesse Schwamb: just kidding. Everybody
[01:00:34] Tony Arsenal: love the brotherhood.
What if the most famous parable in Scripture isn't primarily about the prodigal son at all? In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb begin an in-depth exploration of Luke 15:11-32, arguing that this beloved parable is fundamentally about the Father's lavish, shocking grace rather than the son's waywardness. The hosts unpack how Jesus uses this story to reveal God's character as one who not only forgives repentant sinners but elevates them to the status of beloved children and heirs—a grace so radical it scandalizes our human sensibilities. They also examine the often-overlooked older brother as a picture of "gospel complainers" who struggle to rejoice in God's mercy. This episode sets the foundation for a multi-part series that promises to reveal new depths in one of the Bible's most profound stories.
Throughout church history, interpreters have often focused on the journey of the younger son—his rebellion, his descent into poverty, his moment of realization, and his return home. However, Tony and Jesse argue compellingly that this emphasis misses the parable's primary purpose. Jesus tells this story in response to the Pharisees' complaint that he welcomes sinners and eats with them. The parable's answer isn't primarily about how sinners should behave, but about who God is—a Father who runs to meet returning sinners, who interrupts their prepared speeches of repentance with immediate restoration, who celebrates extravagantly rather than reluctantly. Every detail—the best robe, the ring, the fatted calf, the music and dancing—points to a God whose grace overflows beyond what we could ask or imagine. When we shift our focus from the son's unworthiness to the Father's overwhelming generosity, the gospel comes into sharper focus.
One of the most striking insights in this episode is the observation that the younger son returns expecting at best to be treated as a hired servant, but instead receives treatment that appears to elevate him even beyond his original status as a son. The father doesn't simply restore him to his previous position; he clothes him in the best robe, places a ring on his finger (a symbol of authority), puts shoes on his feet (distinguishing him from barefoot servants), and throws a celebration with the fatted calf (reserved for the most special occasions). This, Tony and Jesse argue, is a picture of what God's salvation accomplishes. We don't simply receive forgiveness that neutralizes our debt; we receive adoption that makes us heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. First John 1:9 doesn't merely promise forgiveness of sins, but cleansing from all unrighteousness—the removal of our guilt and the imputation of Christ's righteousness. This is the scandal of the gospel: God doesn't merely pardon rebels; he makes them sons and daughters.
The parable's second half introduces the older brother, whose response to his father's grace reveals a different kind of lostness. His complaint seems, on the surface, entirely reasonable: he has been faithful and obedient, yet never received such celebration, while his wasteful brother returns and is honored. Yet his anger reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of grace. He sees his relationship with the father in transactional terms—work deserves reward, and his brother's work deserves punishment. He cannot rejoice in mercy shown to another because he doesn't recognize his own need for mercy. The hosts connect this to the Pharisees who complained about Jesus welcoming sinners, and to the persistent temptation among believers to resent God's grace toward those we deem less deserving. The older brother's position outside the celebration—in the "outer darkness" of the parable—serves as a sobering warning about the possibility of being near to the Father's house while remaining far from the Father's heart.
This parable has something to tell us about the nature of the Father, the nature of God as the gracious God who is eager and ready to forgive his people, to forgive his son. It tells us about people who have come to faith, who have been regenerated, who have come to ourselves and have recognized the nature of the Father and recognized the gracious disposition of the Father. — Tony Arsenal
No human mind could invent or conceive of the gospel... You could give people all the time in the world to write some kind of amazing, try to come up with some kind of story, some kind of redemption narrative that would be this good, and we wouldn't be able to do it because it is just so far away from how our minds think. — Jesse Schwamb
He could have redeemed us from destruction and brought us out of that, but he's chosen not only to redeem us from destruction, to protect us from destruction and to bring us out of that, but he's chosen to make us his children, to adopt us as his heirs, as his inheritors. — Tony Arsenal
[00:00:48] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 476. Of the Reformed Brotherhood, I'm Jesse.
[00:00:55] Tony Arsenal: and I'm Tony, and this is the podcast that Tony is actually on. Hey brother.
[00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother.
[00:01:03] Tony Arsenal: lives, I'm alive. Yes. It's,
[00:01:07] Jesse Schwamb: As, as I said, the rumors of your demise were greatly exaggerated and here you are.
[00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: just barely. Yeah. I mean, the words your brother who was once lost has now been found, have double meaning on this episode.
[00:01:21] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. You're leading us right into this topic, which we've teased and teased and teased to extreme lengths, but finally, brothers and sisters, I think today on this episode we're gonna talk a little bit about the Parable of the Lost Son. After all of that, I think it was good buildup, but it's time.
[00:01:40] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And it's worth the buildup. This is one of the, uh, one of the like, big daddy parables. I mean, all the parables are profitable and useful, of course. But, uh, as far as like the, the, the major parables, this is, I don't know if this is probably the most major parable or the, it's certainly the most famous.
It's right up there with the Good Samaritan. So I'm, I'm stoked. I've been like wrestling and chewing on this parable for like a month now.
[00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: I know. How about it? We're finally here. There's so much to talk about. I don't wanna bury the lead. We're gonna get there. It, there's just. There's so much ex escalation, like so much evolution, evolution, evolution and escalation of this idea of like, it's three parables in one and really it's one parable in three parts, and we're, you're going from the sheep to the coin to a person now, and then there's this like, you can complain about the gospel.
All that's happening within this, I mean, there's, we could just do a, a podcast or an episode of the podcast. You could do a whole podcast just on the setup, but we're not gonna do that.
[00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: Well, we'll probably do part of that, but the other thing I'm sure that people have missed are affirmations, denials. And they're back.
It's 2026. We've got 'em. You want 'em? So as I've been want to do, Tony, my brother, are you affirming with, are you denying against.
[00:02:58] Tony Arsenal: I am going to affirm this is a very recent popcorn, coconut oil affirmation. Uh, both of us have been reading, um, James Linton's newest entry in the hierarchy
[00:03:10] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's right.
[00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: and both of us have now finished it. And I do have to
[00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yep.
[00:03:14] Tony Arsenal: um. The book was better than I thought it was gonna be, and I had pretty high expectations going into it. so if you haven't had a chance to check out the hierarchy, I know it, I think it's either gonna be a trilogy or a Quad trilogy. I've read that there's a plan for three books, maybe four books. Um, if you haven't checked it out despite our several recommendations, please do. It was. It was amazing book and kept you confused in all the right ways until, until suddenly you weren't so confused, which was like a really, it was like the opposite feeling as the first book, which was you thought you knew what was going on the entire time, and then all of a sudden it was just a totally different situation.
This I. I kind of felt like I sort of understood what was going on. And then in maybe like the last, I don't know, five pages, everything got upended again. Um, so yeah, it, it was very good. Uh, it's eminently appropriate. Um, there's no sex. There's. Sort of veiled swearing, but it's, it's sort of like fantasy world.
Different words, swearing. Um, it can be a little bit, um, violent at some points, but he does a good job of not making it overly graphic. Um, and there are some graphic things that happen, but he does a good job of not describing them overly graphically. So, um, I don't know that I would like read it to your kids at bedtime, but it's a.
It's a good book and it's worth, it's, it's a little bit of a slog. I mean, it was a long book, but it's worth the
[00:04:45] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:04:46] Tony Arsenal: you put into it. Um, I don't know when the next book's gonna come out. Probably a year and a half, maybe two years. Um, seems to be the pace. So you got time to go back and read Will of the Mini, which is the first one, uh, strength of the Few, which is the second one. And the forthcoming volume I've heard is called the Justice of One. I don't
[00:05:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:05:04] Tony Arsenal: if there's a fourth volume, what it's gonna be called. Um, but yeah, check it out. It was super good. It was super, super satisfying. Um, it was shocking in all the right ways. Surprising in all the right ways, but also sort of predictable in some of the right ways.
There were some things that happened that. Felt right, and like they're expected and they should have happened, and then they did happen. Um, I I, I get really frustrated with books when you really feel like it's supposed to go some way and then it just doesn't, like something fits and it doesn't happen.
So yeah. Strength of the Few by James Islington. I'm gonna try to pick up his other trilogy, I think it's called the Lactus Trilogy, um, just to get a feel for it. And I've heard rumors that, uh, James Islington is actually a reformed Christian, so we are gonna try to hunt him down if anyone happens to have contact information for James is LinkedIn please. Uh, please send it my way 'cause I would love to book him for the show and see if we could get him, uh, get him visiting.
[00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: We got 20, 26 goals. We got those squad goals. Actually, what's a really good way for people to get you? Let's say somebody has the contact information, they're listening and they're saying, we. I do with this hot little ticket that's in my hands. How could they get that information to us in a really fun way?
[00:06:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, we have a Telegram channel. Telegram is just this little messaging app. Uh, you just go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood. Uh, you can use it on any browser or any mobile device. You can access Telegram. If you go to your browser and point it to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, it will take you either to download the app or if you already have the app, it'll jump you straight into the, uh, into the conversation. Uh, there's several different channels or a little. Categories in there. Um, you know, anything from memes to, um, like a book reading club to prayer requests, um, there's a lot going on in there and it really is just a friendly place. There's about a hundred people in there, so it's not gonna blow up your phone all the time. Um, but if you have a question or you want to chat things or you happen to have James Linton's email address and you wanna share it with me, that is the place to do it. t.me/reform brotherhood.
[00:07:08] Jesse Schwamb: This is a great book. Like you said, the storytelling is epic's. Super fun. It keeps you guessing. In fact, you almost can't even guess at certain points. You've just gotta come along for the ride. And one of the things I also appreciate about James Islington is he's pretty responsive. So he has a website and he posts regular updates.
So I'm looking at an update that was dated December 2nd. He talks about the justice of one. He says he's got it up to 150,000 words in draft form, but he also is saying that he's going to release like a shorter sci-fi novel this year. So that man is just cranking books.
[00:07:40] Tony Arsenal: He
[00:07:40] Jesse Schwamb: He's just out there crushing it.
[00:07:43] Tony Arsenal: of
[00:07:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's, you just stole that. That's exactly what I was gonna say. He's the Sin Sinclair Ferguson of fantasy authorship. So he's doing his thing. But I love that he keeps touch kind of with his readership and he provides these little tidbits to just say like, I'm out here and I'm work. 'cause isn't there you, you and I have talked about this before.
There's almost nothing less satisfying than a really good series that you either start reading or you think is gonna be complete and at some point like it drops off and you have no idea what happened to the author. It's, it's hard. I mean, it's a small thing in the world of course, but there's nothing more satisfying than knowing that you're gonna get this whole series.
And I kind of like the breaks in between 'cause it allows you to kind of track and digest. And I've already like looked up videos. Maybe you've done the same thing, reading all this stuff about people's theories about what's going on. 'cause it's that good that like you wanna get. Other people together and talk about, it's that kind of book.
[00:08:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and Jesse and I have swapped theories about what's going to happen. I think we more or less independently came up with basically
[00:08:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:08:44] Tony Arsenal: theory. Um,
[00:08:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:08:46] Tony Arsenal: sure some of the nuances are different, but I would love it if, if, uh, someone in our telegram chat or other people have read, read this book. To hear what your thoughts are about what's gonna happen in the next book and what the kind of the next resolutions. I can't even, like, there's no way I can even tilt my hand about what my theory might be without spoiling like all of the best surprises in the whole book. So I think that's enough. Uh, fanboying over strength of the few.
For now, for now. Um, but do check it out. Strength of the few. James Islington. Um, I got it on Kindle. It was, it was easy enough to read on a eReader. Sometimes books aren't formatted well for eBooks. This, the formatting's good. The, the pacing is good. Um, just check it out. You, you won't be sorry. Probably if, if you like science fiction, fantasy kind of books, you won't be sorry that you invested the time in this.
[00:09:39] Jesse Schwamb: Agreed. Yeah. Good. That is a good strong starting affirmation.
[00:09:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what do you got for us tonight?
[00:09:46] Jesse Schwamb: I'm gonna do an affirmation as well, and I'm just gonna fan boy with two authors and I'm coming in 'cause you, you actually asked me about this for some opinion on it and I'm willing to give some, even though it's too early in the year, I suppose, but I.
I have really grown to appreciate some really good quote unquote devotional reads. You know, something that gives you a little bit to process and digest every day. And I was gifted walking in Faith 365 days with John Calvin, which is edited by Joel Beaky. So you got a powerhouse there, and it turns out.
Not shockingly, it's good and I'm just loving, again, the ability to have like snippets of really good writing that don't overwhelm you in the volume so you can really slow down and chew on them a bit. And additionally, one of the things I really like about this particular volume is that it's in.
Technical order, so it moves you through the scriptures as if like you were perhaps just reading through one book of the Bible and it's taking these like little pieces and snippets along the way. So of course it's in Genesis, we're early in the year as you and I are talking, and so it's just moving you through.
I'm just at Jacob and Esau and just drawing out some really lovely distinctions, some theological truths from a little piece of scripture, some commentary on that. Then some kind of additional Bible reading paired along with that for you to take in the process as well. It's just. Good, Joe Bke is great. I mean, what can we say about Calvin?
[00:11:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:11:09] Jesse Schwamb: So it's really a lovely pairing and he is curated it very nicely. And again, I love that it's kind of moving through the scriptures in a way that's familiar to us, just in terms of the order of the scriptures themselves, at least that they've been ordered for us. So if you're looking for something, it's not too late.
I mean, I suppose you could just pick this up and do it whenever you wanted, but still early in the year. So I don't know. Wherever books are sold, I'm sure you can find it. Walking in faith. 3, 6, 5 days with John Calvin, who doesn't wanna spend that much time with John Calvin. Everybody does. So go well. Most everybody does.
Go. Go and check it out.
[00:11:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think that curation aspect is really important because anyone, I mean, and people should and do this and it's fine and, and edifying, like you can, you can pick up a like year through the institute's like
[00:11:53] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:11:53] Tony Arsenal: plan. Um, but some of the institute's, like, it's just not, not theologically bad, but it's just not good writing.
Like there are parts of the institutes that are just really. Dull and dry and hard to get through. So a good book like this that's gonna curate and I'm assuming if he's going through the scriptures, they're pulling from his commentaries and other works. Do, um.
[00:12:15] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:12:16] Tony Arsenal: It's important because even the best writers have bad parts of their writing, either because the writing is bad or because sometimes the material they're covering is dry and something like a biblical commentary, like you're gonna cover the genealogies.
And that's probably not the most compelling commentary to read is what John Calvin thinks about the, the. You know, six chapters at the beginning of First Kings or, uh, first Chronicles, although I don't think he did a
[00:12:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:12:45] Tony Arsenal: on First Chronicles, but. The point stands that having someone who is knowledgeable and has s slugged their way through all of that to curate and to arrange it and to give it thematic cohesion, uh, is really helpful.
I would love to see more books like that. Like, like, let's Beaky, can you do one for like a brothel and. And Bob Inc. Can you
[00:13:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a good idea.
[00:13:08] Tony Arsenal: go through all of the major reformed, uh, writers and create this resource for us? Please, if you have Joel Bey's email also go to the telegram chat and, uh, and let us know.
Uh, it's probably not unrealistic that someone in our Telegram chat actually does have Joel Bey's email. Um, and I would be willing to bet that you could probably just find Joel Bee's email on like the Pure Term Reform Seminary website. He's probably not too hard to get hold of.
[00:13:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, but that's, that's not the one we're talking about. We, we want the burn it to the ground email. We want the Yahoo or the a OL address. We want that personal one.
[00:13:44] Tony Arsenal: it's like j Bke Puritan master@geocities.com.
[00:13:50] Jesse Schwamb: That's the one we want. We. Listen, Dr. Pki, we know that you have that email. Just just, just give it to us. Just give it to us. Join our Telegram group. It'll be amazing. And then just give it to us and then you can come and you can talk to us and we will give you all these amazing ideas like you've just done for free.
I like that. Think about like if there was like a volume set of these and then you could just have them at your disposal. You might like take one year and go through broccoli. You might go through Calvin. How awesome would that be? Like you just cycle through them just in perpetuity, alongside like your general reading or study of the scriptures.
I, I love it because it's like a, it's like a theological, oh, this could be a horrible comparison, but it's kinda like a theological dessert. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not saying it's, it's full of empty calories. I'm saying it's a rich, it's delicious. It's a great like night cap of your worship, as it were.
And. It is the best to have somebody who's gone through it and said, Hey, here's something really worthwhile that you should hear from Calvin every day on a particular part of the scriptures. And that's just how it, it's like it's the greatest hits, so you're just getting them. It's like they just, they're bangers.
They don't stop. They just keep hitting you hard every day. So I love your idea of like, can we just get more of that from everybody
[00:15:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, for sure. Well, Jesse, I have a feeling we're gonna need all the time we can get for this
[00:15:08] Jesse Schwamb: the time?
[00:15:08] Tony Arsenal: So rather than trying to segue our in our way into some clever transition, why don't
[00:15:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:14] Tony Arsenal: why don't we just get at it?
[00:15:16] Jesse Schwamb: We, we should get a, and I have a feeling that maybe some of the brothers sisters said that we're gonna need some of the time, but what you actually said was, we need all the time. And that is factually correct.
[00:15:26] Tony Arsenal: the times. Yeah, we're gonna
[00:15:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:15:28] Tony Arsenal: episodes for this one. I think I'll call it now.
[00:15:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's, that is absolutely true. So there is a choice ahead of us though. And that is, and I, this is where I'm at. I dunno where you're at. We're having the meeting as we actually record the conversation.
[00:15:41] Jesse Schwamb: I'm thinking, why don't we just read this whole thing to start with, just to set it up. We're certainly not gonna get through everything and I think even, we probably have some things we'd like to say in this set up itself.
But, uh, what, say you, let's just read the whole thing.
[00:15:53] Tony Arsenal: do it. Do you want me to read?
[00:15:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, go ahead.
[00:15:56] Tony Arsenal: I'm reading from the ESV and I'm reading out of Luke chapter 15, starting in verse 11. And he said he being Jesus. He said there was a man who had two sons and the younger of them said to his father, father, give me the share of property that is coming to me. He divided his property between them. Not many days later, the young son gathered all he had took a journey into the far country and there he squandered his property in reckless living. And when he had spent everything severe famine arose in the country and he began to be in need. he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country who sent him into the field to feed his pigs. And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything. But when he came to himself, he said, how many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger. I will arise and go to my father. And I'll say to him, father, I've sinned against heaven and earth before you. I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants. And he arose and came to his father, but while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. But the father said to his servants, bring quickly the best robe and put it on him and bring a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet, and bring the fatted calf and kill it and let us eat and celebrate for this. My son was dead and is alive again. He was lost and is found, and they began to celebrate. Now, his older son was in the field and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. And he said to him, your brother has come and your father has killed the fatted calf because he received him back safe and sound. But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and and treated him, but he answered his father. Look, these many years I've served you, I've never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours came who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fatted calf for him. And he said to him, son, you are always with me, and all that is mine. Is yours. Was fitting to celebrate and be glad for this. Your brother was dead and is alive. He was lost and is found.
[00:18:25] Jesse Schwamb: So glad those dulce tones are back. It's so easy to really get caught up in this. I mean, just listening to you give it to us, deliver it to us. It's so easy to, to get embedded in this story and to feel something about what's going, especially the end. I was just really struck by that older brother saying very directly like, you know, listen, you didn't gimme anything and this fool over here squatted everything with prostitutes, and now you've come back and you've welcomed him and celebrated him.
I mean, there, there's so much here. That is the beauty of this like three in one parable format, isn't it? We get the first two, which I think are really, like we talked about, designed to impress us upon us with this love of God. It's an activity which seeks out the sinner, which takes like infinite trouble in order to find him, rescue him.
And then there's this joy that's shown by God and all the host of heaven when even just the one is saved. And we've said again that we gotta remember the setup here. All that message is coming against this great accusation, which of course the Pharisees mean to be pejorative. But what is a true flection of our savior, of his loving and kindness that he welcomes?
He makes himself approachable by the least in society. The ones who had rejected religion once, for which like religion was not gonna do anything anymore. They're outside of it. That was for good men, and these were decidedly not good men. And so then there's this. Like I said before, I guess what was the word I used?
Evolution, which I think is like an elaboration and an elevation of this whole storyline. And now we're going from sheep and coins to this idea that God is stressing his activity alone, that he goes in this, there's this reaction condition of the sinner. And so the parable, I think here, at least to my mind, and I wanna hear what you have to say even as we start, which is that impresses upon us again, this aspect of this other like side matter.
Nobody should be so foolish to think that we should be automatically saved by God's love, even as the sheep and the last coin were found. And so the great outstanding point is still the same, but it's application. It seems to me, even, again, just hearing you say this to us is made more direct and more personal, and so we really need to get well, what is that additional direct and personal message?
What, what is the thing that we need to look at here and understand that connects us to the other two parts, being peace wise. Of this whole formulaic approach to salvation from God's view, but also is much more different and much more direct.
[00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think the, the sort of like intensification of these parables, know, maybe not, it's not like a progressive intensification, but we go from, we go from kind of like a herd animal that's wandered away. Has somewhat of an agency, but like does nothing to bring itself back. We go from that to a coin, which is totally inanimate and it is
[00:21:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:21:11] Tony Arsenal: and, and now we have this like fully orbed, fully fleshed out picture of salvation that fills in some of the gaps, right? I think if you just had the first two parables and you were using those, it gives this impression that we are entirely. Inert, I won't say passive. 'cause we are passive in our justification. We receive justification from external to us, and we don't contribute anything to the effecting of our justification. But we're not inert even in our justification. We're not inert, we're not just sitting there. Um, we, we respond in faith to God's regeneration and calling and justification comes to us through that faith. So this parable really does. Give us a bigger picture because it's not as though the son is dead in a ditch somewhere and the father comes and finds him like the son does and come back.
So it's, it's now not just a picture of. The redemption that God, you know, brings to his people and the redemption that Christ purchases, that the Holy Spirit applies to his people. It's also now a picture of what repentance looks like, and it's a picture of what recalcitrant looks like. It's a picture of what it looks like to refuse to trust the grace of God and to rejoice in the grace of God. We have a, all of those pictures are all there and it, it really is a. A pretty complex, it's a complex flavor profile. I, I feel like maybe it's because distilling theology's back and I was listening to it the other day, but it, it, it really is this complex picture of really a lot of elements of soteriology that I don't know that I picked up on, you know, in my casual study of this parable and, you know, and up until now, really kind of deep diving it.
[00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm with, I'm with you, and there's like a lovely kind of book ending here, or there's maybe like a huge punchline. That's a better way to say it because even as we start at the beginning, of course, with. Two sons, which is a wonderful way to begin this. I mean, that's just like pregnant and poignant with so much meaning.
So much like anticipation, because what's gonna happen, what are the two sons they seem to be, even from the beginning at odds or even as you're thinking of the younger you have in your mind. Well, I was told there was two, so they must come into play. They. I love that because there is this enjoin or this kind of attack where the Pharisees are kind of even made to be like the elder brother and 'cause they're not joining in in heaven's joy.
And the punchline comes later and of course it's still in response. The very last thing is still in response to the fact that you can say something totally true about Jesus Amina as an accusation and they're gospel complainers and the Bible's actually full of gospel complainers. I sometimes worry and, and as we were.
Setting up to talk about this. I was thinking what are the ways that like the modern ways, even the reform circles that we have or complain about grace and. I always think of Jonah and think, I would never be Jonah, but of course, like you get to the end of Jonah's legacy really. And the way that we know him at the end is he's just angry because of God's mercy.
And it's almost laughable because at the end of Jonah four, when Jonah's sitting out looking on Nineveh and there's been this grand repentance, and then, you know. Yahweh essentially says to him, do you have a good reason to be angry? And he's like, yes, because I knew you'd be merciful. And then God instill his mercy to Jonah in particular, of course, in the heat of the day, gives a plant to grow beside him and give him shade.
And then God brings in his. True providence and control over all things, a scorching east wind and it strikes down that plant. And then Jonah loses his shade and he's angry again. And this is why I chuckle, 'cause it's almost laughable. God says to Jonah, listen, do you have a good reason? He says the same question, do you have a good reason to be angry about the plant?
And of course Jonah's response is, yeah, I'm angry enough to die. And it's just like, isn't that our proclivity? And so like even all of this story is to. Challenge the idea that the gospel, I think if we're, if we're honest with ourselves, is sometimes gonna come cause us to complain about this incredible grace, this amazing grace.
That's what makes it so amazing. So the whole star story from start to finish puts us in both of the characters, doesn't it? I mean, I know that's a very common interpretation, but it's probably worth, I think, not forgetting that to the, from the beginning, from the end here. That the punchline is that. The Pharisees are being accused to be the elder brothers and we along with them at times, but that it's easy to complain about the gospel, even if you're totally down with, we're presumably gonna get to all the other parables about the workers, for instance, and their pay and all that good stuff.
But we're gonna see this theme over and over and over again that the gospel truly is radical. I think for me, the way it summarized the whole thing is that we're seeing like the recklessly spend, thrift love of God. I think I've said before in our conversations elsewhere that like there's so much in here that's not.
Not like good earthly human advice. This is probably not good, like in total, like parenting advice, for instance, in every situation it, it is showing though the incredible breadth and scope of God's love. And still, like you said, Tony, I like this. We should go onto this, this elaboration of this point where.
I think for many people like myself, one of my favorite parts in this is, and he came to himself, but that coming to himself isn't, he came to himself by himself, but that he came to himself under the realization of the father, that he ought to go back and to humble himself before him. And you're right.
There is this confluence of those two things. Maybe it's Erie is a better word in which they're coming together in harmony. They're not opposed to one another. We're not saying that he somehow earned himself the right and still, like he just got smart enough and therefore said, if I just go back to the father and I plead mercy, that maybe I'll have some opportunity to come back into the household.
You know, still is all God's work, but we're seeing the work of God in the sinner in this place, in the thing that was lost, which we don't see in the other two parables or the other two parts that proceeded.
[00:27:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, um, this is one of those parables too, where. If you look at a parable and say, it can only have one point, which I know is, is a common interpretive lens that a lot of people look through parables, look at parables through.
[00:27:38] Tony Arsenal: Um, if you look at this and say, well, it can only have one point that I think you're really selling yourself short. 'cause this, this parable has something to tell us about. The nature of the Father, right? The nature of God as the gracious God who is eager and ready to forgive his people, right, to forgive his son. it tells us about us. It tells us about people who have come to faith, who have been regenerated, who have come to ourselves and have recognized the nature of the Father and recognized the gracious disposition of the Father. Um, even, even. In the sons, the, the lost sons or the the prodigal sons, even in his, So maybe we should, we should just talk through it a little bit.
[00:28:28] Tony Arsenal: The son turns, when he comes to himself, he doesn't think he's gonna go back and become a son again. Right. He doesn't, he doesn't think he's going to achieve full forgiveness and restoration, but even his minimalistic understanding of what his father. Could, and, and I think it's reasonable to say like, likely will, he's going home because he anticipates that it will be successful, right? It's a, it's a
[00:28:53] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:28:54] Tony Arsenal: effort, but he's not, he's not thinking he's gonna get like thrown out again. He's thinking that when he goes home and he pleads with his father to become a higher, become a hired servant in his house, that the father's going to accept that proposition.
So even in that. That still would be a gracious response.
[00:29:14] Tony Arsenal: Um, I've read lots of commentaries on this over the years, and most of them make the point that the disrespect. Shown to the father by this son, um, would've been a justification for stoning under the mosaic economy. so he, he, uh, is going back to someone who has the right to.
Take his life, and he's anticipating that he won't. Right? So even that is a recognition of the graciousness of this father. And then he gets there and the graciousness of the father overflows beyond his wildest imaginations, right? He comes back and, and. I have to think, especially since the other son isn't like, oh yeah, we wear the best robes and the best rings and we have feasts all the time. This is not normal. It's not like this is just restoration. Back to the original state of sun sonship, he's now elevated in his sonship. He comes back and he's wearing the best robe. He's given the best ring. He has shoes on his feet. He is, there's a party. The fatted calf is being killed. He's, he's advanced to a higher level of celebration and fellowship than he was.
[00:30:24] Tony Arsenal: So this parable has so many different facets to it that tell us about ourselves, tells us about our salvation, tells us about God, tells us about the reprobates, which is. We talked about this in some of the other parables, like there's a judgment element to this. The son who refuses to celebrate the the lost coming home remains in the outer darkness.
He sits outside the party. He doesn't enjoy the fellowship of everyone who's, who's. over the restoration of this one. He is in the outer darkness. He is in where the goats are, where, you know, he's, he's out away from the fellowship of God's people in the parable. So, we'll, we'll unpack all of this in more depth as we work our way through the, you know, we'll work way, our way through the parable itself.
But there is so much here to unpack it just really is such a rich, beautiful tapestry of. Of theological insight and wisdom, and Jesus is just this master storyteller, right? This is
[00:31:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:31:27] Tony Arsenal: that he's, he's come up with that weaves all of these themes in. Of course, I mean, of course he's a master storyteller.
He's God, but as even as a
[00:31:35] Jesse Schwamb: Right,
[00:31:35] Tony Arsenal: he's, he's able to weave all these themes together in a way that is surprising, but also not really surprising. Like this
[00:31:44] Jesse Schwamb: right,
[00:31:45] Tony Arsenal: the way you would want this story to unfold. Like it's a comfortable, um. It's not shocking in the wrong way. Like, you don't look at it, you're not being surprised by, it's not like a, there's no twist to this.
If anything, the twist is that the older brother is kind of a bonehead. Right?
[00:32:05] Tony Arsenal: So, so I'm, I'm just really thankful that this is in the Bible. It's such a beautiful thing and it is so well known, even outside of Christian circles. People understand and know this story. It can be a really good touch point for the gospel.
'cause when you talk about the prodigal son. clicks for people. They may not know
[00:32:21] Jesse Schwamb: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: but they're familiar with that language. They know it's something from the Bible and you can use it to really explain the grace of God, the restoration of sinners. So I'm stoked to keep going on this one,
[00:32:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, and that's why we need multiple conversations because I think that we're trying to start it in the right spot, which we, we gotta talk about the big things first. Like we, we, we, I know we wanna run and go and talk about all the details and people are probably like. Talk about the, like you said, the covenant between father and son and talk.
We'll get there, I promise. But I think we need to sit for a second and just think about the, just the grand arc. This, this whole, the whole of what's being communicated here is tremendous and it is captivating and you're rights like God has in his per nation made this to be the kind of thing that, uh.
Like, I like what you said, it captivates us in a weird way. It's not like storytelling to which we are drawn because we could conceive of it, but because it's so inconceivable and yet in that ability to like not fully comprehend the depth of this, it's the kind of forgiveness and restoration that we all sense we needed want.
[00:33:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:33:24] Jesse Schwamb: And of course we're still, you and I are still talking at the beginning of the year here, and one of the. Like, I think incredible themes that jumps out to me on this is truly like the possibility of a new start, a real new beginning for all. Even those who are most desperate, there's no case can be worse than this prodigal son.
Yet even he gets to start again. And like you've just said, and I think this is a critical point, he's not starting from a place of. Restored weakness or some kind of subcategory in the hierarchy of the family. He's actually been elevated back up and there's like a true resurrection or restoration here.
One might, one might even say like he's had a glorious fall because it's been restored to such a degree where he knows the father's love in a truly profound, in really intimate kind of way that he would not have experienced if he had stayed in the father's household. And so even I think at the beginning with this, him coming forward and asking for the inheritance.
Maybe we're getting a little bit of that flavor of Romans one that God turning over that he's working and seeking out that which is idolatrous. He thinks that is the kind of thing that will either satisfy or fulfill him. He quickly finds it to be knots, that kind of thing. And then he touches bottom. I mean, he goes all the way down so low that I'm not sure he could possibly descend any further, and we'll get to these details.
Of course, in his culture and his family in this foreign country, he's with husks and pigs. He's Penns friendless. He's hopeless. He's for alone. He's totally desolate and dejected, but even he gets a fresh start even he is called to make a new beginning, and the father, like you said, runs to him in that new beginning.
[00:34:59] Jesse Schwamb: That's the blessed gospel. Loved ones like that's the blessed hope. That's, that's the new thing that we're always longing for, that we find if we could just have that kind of restoration, especially when we fall, which we will continue to fall, we'll continue to sin. What a difference the coming of Jesus makes.
And all of that. It says Jesus saying himself again, like he is the messenger and he's the message. And he's saying, here I am. I, uh, here I am declaring freedom for the captives, like true restoration, true rehabilitation, true regeneration. And all of that's happening in the context of this story. And I'm with you.
Like, I don't wanna move too quickly into the details, which are cool and fun and support all of that without us kind of trying to process what that even means.
[00:35:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and this is a big one, so buckle up everyone like this is gonna be obviously. We're 30, 30 ish minutes in 30, almost 40 minutes into this episode. Uh, we haven't even, we haven't even started working our way through the text directly.
[00:35:57] Jesse Schwamb: True.
[00:35:58] Tony Arsenal: gonna be here for at least a couple weeks. So make sure you pick up a good commentary, make sure you pick up some good resources, read through this, really, really like, meditate on it and marinate on it.
And I think, you know, this parable has so much to teach us. It really is worth devoting the time to it. 'cause you know, I was thinking about it the other day. It's funny because like the older brother, almost like his annoyance actually makes sense to me. Not, not in the like gospel complainer sense that I think is like the point of the parable, but just on the surface of it, like he's not being unreasonable and,
[00:36:35] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.
[00:36:36] Tony Arsenal: tell us something.
Not only about our own dispositions, but that is not the, um. not the shocking part of the story, right? The shocking part of the story is that the father is gracious abundantly, above and beyond, not only to the younger son, but also to the older son. Gracious. He's gracious to the servants. I mean, ev, everyone in this parable across the board is benefiting from the beneficence of. father in this parable, the servants, the sons, everyone is benefiting from him. And I, I think that is the part of the parable that we often miss. And this is one of my little bugaboos, like this is, this is my version of broken for you. Um,
[00:37:23] Jesse Schwamb: Hit me
[00:37:24] Tony Arsenal: we, we call this the parable of the prodigal son.
[00:37:28] Jesse Schwamb: right.
[00:37:29] Tony Arsenal: the parable is not about the sons, like they're there.
And of course, as I said, like the parable has something to teach us about the figures that these sons represent. The, the, the, the theological truths that come to bear in the character and the. The story arcs of these sons as part of the parable. But the main focus of this parable, the main point is to teach us about the grace and the goodness and the generosity and the love of the Lord Jesus Christ and his Father and the Holy Spirit. And if we, if we start to shift our gaze in the parable, we, we get too bogged down in trying to parse out every little element of each.
[00:38:15] Tony Arsenal: and the servants and what do the pods represent and who, what are the pigs and who are the foreign, where's the foreign land and what, what historically, what's with the, in like when we get there? All of those things are good and well, and, and we'll talk about most of those things I think over the coming weeks. But if we miss the point of the parable that this is about the gracious. Love and forgiveness that is ours in Christ and the nature of the God who extends that forgiveness to us and the way that that forgiveness is obtained and, and applied to us.
Um, we, we lose a lot. We miss out on a lot. So that, I think that's why we're looping on it so much in this first episode here, is we have to nail what the parable broadly is about before we can invest time in the others, or we're gonna miss the point entirely. Okay.
[00:38:59] Jesse Schwamb: That's right on it. This is like truly scandalous. I mean, again, Jesus is clearly addressing the fact that in some ways, like you're saying, I think you can see how the Pharisees have a right to complain, or at least they think they have a right to complain in the same way the older brother does. Like I've been here all along.
I've done what you've asked for me, and you know, this fool over here again, went and just squandered everything. But now he's come back and he's celebrating him like he's the hero and. It's this idea, idea again that I, I, I guess it goes back to, I'm thinking of like one John, right? Where John says something like, behold, what manner of love the father has lavished on us, like these verbs.
These just almost, it sounds like, I think in a normal conversation, I don't know. I dunno how often we're using the word lavish, but you probably are being hyperbolic, but that John is not there. He's not trying to emphasize like, well, I just can't get to how big God's love. It is big enough. I need you to really understand it.
So I'm gonna go well above and beyond and use some kind of like really grandiose language here. But he says lavish. He's talking about this full magnitude of how God feels in his disposition towards us that is so scandalous and everywhere there's just scandal in the Bible, like at the top. Now I'm thinking this of this connection, just having read from John Calvin about Jacob and he saw and just how scandalous it is that God chooses Jacob, who's the deceiver, who's like just as a duplicitous life, who like for the sake can't get out of his own way actually.
And here is God a blessing and saving and covenanting with him. And so when God looks upon a sinner to save him, he regards him as loss in the need of being found sovereignly and effectually. And he does this out of his. His own goodwill and by his own prerogative. Not of course, because there's anything in that man that warrants or deserves that salvation.
And here you're just seeing that over and over again. It's you. I can understand if you're part of a family and you have siblings as a brother getting upset at that kind of situation, it would be natural, wouldn't it? To be like, are you kidding me right now? And so I think that's why the father of the parable says that my son was.
Dead. I mean, he was gone. He was lost. Completely helpless. And by nature, that's exactly where we are. Of course, we're dead. We're cut off from the source of life, God himself. We're lost with respect to God and we're lost from the perspective of God. And all of that's that's happening here. And I think, I can't imagine.
What it was like to sit in the telling of this and feel the tension of the parties involved in those who are listening, because I think there were a lot of feelings about what was going on and being said here. And mainly that was because I would sum it up as the, with the question, uh. Are you kidding me?
Or how dare you? Like this is crazy what you're talking about, the kind of love you're saying the father has is crazy in the sense that there is no earthly logic where we would be bent towards saying that seems completely undeserved. And I think the point is, you're exactly right. And no matter where you look at it, you might try to point to your own life or someone else's, or look at the little idiosyncrasies.
Idiosyncrasies of how we behave and think, well no, there should be some justice here. And that that's exactly right. Jesus has born on that justice being just and justifier through God himself. And in that way we get to have God's love lavishly spent on us. And when we think about how lavish that is, it should trip our minds.
Like it should kind of short circuit all of our processing because it is not natural. It is truly supernatural. And that's why I'm with you. Like we really have to, I think, take some time to like go over that over and over and over again. It's like singing the chorus of some kind of psalm or piece of worship music where you probably need to sing it 7, 8, 15 times in that repetition before it really starts to sink in.
And I'm not sure it's even sunk it to me.
[00:42:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah,
[00:42:51] Jesse Schwamb: Half of the way, and that's why I'm, I'm just saying it over and over again. This is the incredible love of God toward us and it is completely scandalous. It should be shocking if we're not finding it shocking. We, we probably need to evaluate more. I know. I need to evaluate more because it should be more shocking to me.
[00:43:09] Tony Arsenal: yeah, yeah. I think, um, I'm not a huge fan of. Theological hypothetical, like counterfactuals. And what I mean by that is we can sometimes, we can sometimes talk about like, well, what God could have done or, or whatever. I don't love
[00:43:27] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:43:28] Tony Arsenal: of doing theology, but sometimes it's useful and I think, um. I think that we often forget that salvation, like theoretically could have been different.
[00:43:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, I could conceive of a situation where God saves his people from destruction, but doesn't, doesn't elevate them to the place of his
[00:43:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:43:51] Tony Arsenal: his sons,
[00:43:52] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:43:52] Tony Arsenal: um. didn't have to do that. So E, even beyond the fact that he didn't have to save anyone, he wasn't obligated to save or redeem or store anyone. He could have saved us.
I mean, we talk about this in like he didn't have to make food taste good, right? He didn't have
[00:44:08] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:44:08] Tony Arsenal: sunsets beautiful. He did that for our benefit. He did that for our joy, and he delights in us taking joy in those things. The same sort of dynamic is true of salvation. He could have. He could have redeemed us from, and, and maybe this isn't the way to think about it, and I, I don't want to be too firm on this, but salvation could have been less amazing than it is, I think. Um, and we, we still would need to be infinitely, eternally grateful for it. But, but it could be less. Enjoyable. Less delightful, less delectable. Right? But it isn't, he's chosen not only to redeem us from, from destruction, to protect us from destruction and to bring us out of that, but he's chosen to make us his children, to adopt us as his, as his heirs, as his, as his inheritors, right?
So. In the same sense that this son comes back and is not just welcomed back as a servant or restored to the position of the second son in some ways, and this is why the anger and sort of the anger might not even be the right word. The annoyed, the annoyedness of the son, the, the older son some ways.
The younger son comes back and is actually elevated to the place of the firstborn son.
[00:45:29] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:45:29] Tony Arsenal: that is a picture of salvation that is so foreign to other religions, so foreign to any other religious system that has a concept of restoration and reconciliation with the divine. Um, that's not the way it works.
They, you don't become, you don't become, um, the family of. Allah, right? You don't become somehow like united to the ta, like to the Tao. Like that's just not the way any of it works in any other religions, and even in some of the Christian sects, when you talk about Jehovah's Witness and Mormons, and one is Pentecostals, they don't have a fully formed understanding of what it means to come and become God's children. Right? As a Mormon, you don't become God's child, you become God. Right. It's not about being united in faith and love and harmony with, with the father, son, and the spirit. It's about elev being elevated to a place where you're in your own divinity now. So this, this parable really does serve to orient us and reorient us, correct our misunderstandings about what salvation is in a really simple, straightforward fashion that is both expected. I think when I think, and this is, this is maybe the last thing I'll say before we, we wrap it up, is when I think about the really good dads that I know, right? The really, really good dads and moms too, but just, we'll just keep this with dads. When I think about the really good dads, they're the ones that just pick up their kid when they fall or don't, don't, um. Accept the apology. Uh, along with the discipline. They're the ones that actually elevate and restore and they, they bring their children to. A higher level, right? We're talking horizontally, of course, but a higher level through that disobedience that all, all children do, right? They don't just discipline their child, but through the discipline that is required because of the disobedience, they actually advance their child, they advance their child to a new place of fellowship and of wholeness. That that is. Really quite remarkable. And that is what the father in this parable does. He, he, this isn't just like a parable about, I mean, I think, like you said earlier, like in some ways this is actually probably really bad parenting advice, right? If your bonehead kid comes and says, gimme my inheritance, like doing it is probably not the best choice, right?
And, and then when he comes back like, just acting as though nothing happened, like, that's not good discipline, but that's
[00:48:21] Jesse Schwamb: Right,
[00:48:22] Tony Arsenal: the parable. Right. The
[00:48:23] Jesse Schwamb: exactly.
[00:48:24] Tony Arsenal: the character and the love of this father. So I'm excited to, to get into the specifics and the details as we go along. Um, I really think it's gonna be edifying and beneficial and, and I just love that we're in this long series where we're just over the scriptures together.
[00:48:41] Jesse Schwamb: I, I agree. I think that, again, I'm drawn to one John in two ways thinking about what you just said, which was so critical. One is going back to First John three again, I just wanna say, because I'm not sure if I read the full verse now, I think about it, but. It ties in exactly what you're saying. The point being that God's love leads to change of identity.
It leads to relationship and covenant, not just amnesty.
[00:49:03] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:49:04] Jesse Schwamb: So when John says, see where great love, and I do love that, you know, behold, check this out. See where great love the father has given us. Where. What does it result in that we should be called God's children and we are. I love that he has to add, add that at the end to emphasize like, trust me on this, like because of God's love.
It's this giving of this love that recklessly spend. Thrift love that amazing grace isn't just the kind of warm and fuzzy philosophy. It isn't just hopefulness. Or some kind of ideology that ought to make you feel good as if somebody's thinking of you. But instead, it changes you. It elevates you. It puts you in relationship identity that cannot be compromised because God himself holds it for you.
And so his love leads to being called his child, and you are. And he goes on to say, the reason the world does not know us is that I didn't know him. Dear friends, we are God's children now and what we'll be has not yet been revealed. And I think that's echoed then further on in the book, in that famous verse about what it means when we do come to ourselves by the power of the Holy Spirit for John one, nine, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins.
Except that's more than that, right? To your point, Tony, like the, I think this verse proves your exact point. It could have just ended there, right? Like John could have been like, that would've been enough, wouldn't it? That like we have sinned. We are cosmically treasonous against God. We are owed his wrath.
We cannot stand in his presence. Our molecules themselves will be torn asunder when our sinfulness comes into any contact with his pure majesty and holiness. And so the verse should probably be in that kind of world if we confess our sins. He's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins. That would be saying you no longer get the punishment, but it's far better than that, isn't it?
If we confess our sins, he's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That is the righteous and faithful God imparts his own righteousness to us by removing our own unrighteousness, not just in removing the consequences from the punishment explicitly of sin, but to give us the rewards of rightful obedience, which his son undertook in living.
And dying and rising for our benefit because he is for us. That is some amazing news and that is crazy scandalous.
[00:51:25] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:51:26] Jesse Schwamb: There is a prayer in the valley of vision that begins with no human mind could invent or conceive of the gospel, and I love that. Because it's absolutely true. You could give people all the time in the world to write some kind of amazing, try to come up with some kind of story, some kind of redemption narrative that would be this good, and we wouldn't be able to do it because it is just so far away from how our minds think.
Even when we push our minds to their farthest creative end, we just couldn't come up with this. It's that good. It's that amazing. It's that wild. And we all need that wild because we are wild people that are so far apart from God. So I'm with you how amazing it is that we can only really get to, I think, fully processing that in the course of this story.
I think even direct teaching would be good, but maybe not as good as what we get here. And so it draws us in, it compels us, it hems us into a plot, and then it kind of reads us or spits us back out as we are digested, I suppose, by the truth that's here. So there's so much for us to talk about, and I think there's so many good things to come, but we had to start here.
We had to do it. I'm sure people were just like throwing their phones. Yelling at their earbuds. Like get, get to the details. Talk about, like you said, talk about the country, talk about the, what it meant that he was with the pigs. We'll get there.
[00:52:50] Tony Arsenal: We will, we will.
[00:53:06] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, I think that's a good place for us to push pause for the evening. Uh, if you have been blessed by this episode and you're still listening to us, um, we would love it if you would share this with someone else. We spend $0 on advertising. I doubt we will ever spend more than $0 on advertising. Um, this podcast only grows and only spreads. I suppose like some people stumble on it randomly, but for the most part, people come upon the podcast because somebody recommended it. So if you found this conversation helpful, if you have been blessed by it, pick one or two or three friends that you think could, uh, could be drawn closer to the gospel. 'cause that's really what we're trying to do here, and that's really what this parable does, is to draw us closer to God through the gospel, um, and send them the link. Just you're listening to this on your phone, probably, it's probably an Apple phone, statistically speaking. Just hit that share button and send it to their text message and, uh, ask them to listen and then have a conversation with it.
That is the single best thing you could do besides praying for us, uh, to
[00:54:00] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:54:01] Tony Arsenal: and to bless us, is to share this content with someone else.
[00:54:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. And hopefully you'll, like you said, Tony, I love this idea of sharing it and then talking about it. Debate amongst yourselves, with your friends, with your family. Get into the scripture yourselves and enjoy it. It, this is here for us. It's here to encourage us to strengthen us and to, I think now, I can't remember the word that I used at the top, but I wanted to coin that.
I can't remember what it was. Was it Ella? Evolution? Yeah. And then take evolution into your own sphere of influence. And spread that around a little bit because I think that's like a strange Portman too, that I didn't mean to come up with. That's like doubled. It's got like, I've just, I've combined three words probably in that It's like a Uck in word, do you know what I mean?
Like it's, it's just within, its,
[00:54:44] Tony Arsenal: inside a word.
[00:54:46] Jesse Schwamb: yes. I'd like to think that's because one, it was super brilliant, but I didn't mean for it to happen, but two, because like no single word would do. So I had to like. Bring that. Bring that, bring that together. So listen, make up your own words. Come hang out with us in the telegram chat.
We really mean that. It's a new year and so if you've been listening to us, to us for any length of time, and this is the part of the podcast where you tune out 'cause you get tired of us saying you should join the Telegram chat. Don't tune it out this time. Maybe if you join, I'll stop saying it next time.
So just come hang out.
[00:55:13] Tony Arsenal: Probably
[00:55:15] Jesse Schwamb: It's not gonna happen. We'll talk about it forever.
[00:55:20] Tony Arsenal: We will. Jesse, I have this had this recurring nightmare over this last month. That I've been away from the podcast, that I would forget how to podcast and the, the way that it always manifests, I'm no joke. Like I had nightmares about this.
[00:55:35] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah,
[00:55:36] Tony Arsenal: is that I would forget how to do the closing line.
[00:55:39] Jesse Schwamb: that's fair.
[00:55:40] Tony Arsenal: like super nervous right now. I don't know if you can tell. I feel like super nervous.
[00:55:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we all heard that pause there. That was normally where we're like, there'd be the step in, and I will confess to you in the time that I got to just hang out with everybody and do it solo, when I knew that time was coming, I was always nervous because you always carry at least half of it. And so I honestly struggled sometimes with the how does it start?
So I mean. Do you want to count it down? Like what, what would make you feel comfortable? What what can I do is like your, your emotional support co-host here to help you with a close
[00:56:13] Tony Arsenal: like what you could do is honor everyone.
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What does it mean to be truly free from sin as a Christian? In this compelling New Year's episode, Jesse Schwamb explores John Owen's powerful 17th-century treatise on Romans 6:12, unpacking the crucial distinction between sin's presence and sin's dominion in the believer's life. Drawing from Owen's pastoral wisdom, this episode challenges listeners to examine whether sin merely dwells within them or actively rules over them. Through practical diagnostic questions and theological clarity, Jesse demonstrates how union with Christ breaks sin's reign while acknowledging the ongoing battle believers face. This episode offers both encouragement for the weary and a battle plan for those ready to wage war against remaining corruption through the ordinary means of grace.
One of John Owen's most pastoral insights is his careful distinction between sin dwelling in believers versus sin reigning over believers. This isn't mere semantics—it's the difference between a defeated enemy occupying territory and an enemy holding sovereign control. Owen helps us understand that indwelling sin operates like a guerrilla force: active, disruptive, and often humiliating, but critically, no longer sovereign unless we surrender the throne.
For believers struggling with recurring temptations or habitual sins, this distinction offers both comfort and challenge. The comfort comes in recognizing that the presence of internal conflict with sin is often evidence that grace has moved in and started an eviction process. The challenge lies in honest self-examination: Are there areas of life where we've made a covenant with sin, carved out corners where sin calls the shots? Owen's pastoral wisdom recognizes that you can have religious habits, theological vocabulary, and church involvement while sin remains the practical king in specific domains of life.
The Reformed doctrine of union with Christ provides the theological foundation for understanding how sin's dominion is actually broken. Owen emphasizes that Christianity is not primarily behavioral modification but entrance into a whole new reality. When believers are joined to Christ in His death and resurrection, that union fundamentally changes everything—not just legal status before God, but actual power dynamics in daily life.
This means grace doesn't merely cancel your debt or pardon your rebellion; it changes your master entirely. A new dominion has been installed, a new king now rules, operating by a new principle through the Spirit. This is why Paul's language in Romans 6 isn't just about forgiveness but about transfer of kingdoms. The Christian life isn't a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement—it's warfare under a victorious King who has already raised the flag on the battlefield. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect; you're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable.
Owen is allergic to spiritual shortcuts and secret hacks for holiness. Instead, he consistently points believers to what Reformed theology calls the "ordinary means of grace"—those simple, God-appointed channels through which the Spirit works to apply Christ's victory to our daily lives. These include the Word of God (not merely read but received with faith and applied with honesty), prayer (as dependence rather than performance), the sacraments (as visible grace strengthening faith), and fellowship with accountability (because lone sheep Christianity is essentially wolf delivery).
The hard truth Owen presses into our modern habits is that a neglected Bible and a prayerless life don't create mysterious seasons of spiritual dryness—they create predictable weakness. Grace reigns in lives where Christ is trusted, and Christ is trusted where Christ is attended to through these ordinary means. Owen would say that the Christian who doesn't pray against temptations they know they'll face is not truly repentant when they pray against them after they've occurred. This isn't legalism but recognition that spiritual warfare requires using the weapons Christ has actually provided.
The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare, yes, but it's warfare under a victorious King.
You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable.
When you sin, do you make peace with it or do you make war on it? Do you hide sin to protect it or do you expose sin to kill it?
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: as you fight, here's what we need to remember together. The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare. Yes, but it's warfare under a victorious. King. I mean, Jesus himself is the one raising the flag on the battlefield, calling us out.
Take heart, Christian, you're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. That I think is how John Owen would summarize. Free from Sins Dominion. Sin still dwells, but no longer rules. Grace doesn't just forgive your rebellion.
It overthrows the rebel regime. So I hope that that is in some way a small little treat as advertised for the new year,
[00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse and this is the podcast with the same old truth for a brand new year.
Hey, brothers and sisters, happy New Year. It's 2026 and it turns out the Band Smash Mouth was correct when they said the years just keep on coming. And on this episode, we've got a little bit of a New Year's treat for you. But before we do that, let me explain a couple things. Let me bring you into the Reform Brotherhood realm.
Give you a little peek behind the curtain because. We've received the questions, we've heard the rumors. What is going on? Where was everybody? And where is Tony?
[00:01:47] Jesse Schwamb: Don't worry, I have answers for you. So first, we took a little bit of a hiatus, just a couple of weeks for the holidays at the turn of the year here.
And during that time I did in fact see Tony with my own eyes. He does exist. Some have asked, has Jesse taken over the Reform Brotherhood podcast? Is there just one host? Now, is Tony in some kind of theological witness protection program because he's debated too many people online? I'm happy to tell you that Tony is alive and well.
He's doing just fine. But as I mentioned previously, his family's been going through all kinds of sickness, particularly his wife, who is my sister. She's had some intractable upper respiratory infection stuff going on, so please pray for her. He's been dutifully taking care of the family and her, and that's just meant that sometimes the podcast has to take a little bit of a backseat, so he is coming back.
He is alive and well. In fact, if you still want to interact with him, the best way to do that, as you've heard me say before, is you can actually, believe it or not, hang out with us. In the interweb sphere, and you can do that by going to T Me, lemme say that again. T Me Reform Brotherhood. It's been a while.
Loved Ones T Me Reform Brotherhood. And there you'll find a little chat group that takes place in the telegram. Chat. So come hang out. There he is. There he is alive and well. And we'll be back before you know it. And that's why this whole episode is not just a castaway, it's a little bit of a New Year's treat.
[00:03:19] Jesse Schwamb: And I say that because I think all of us at this time of year, whether we want to admit it or not, we do think a little bit about the fresh beginning, the new start, and. First, can we just say that what the world looks for in the calendar is what Christ gives to us in the every day? What a blessing that we have a God who gives us mercies, and those mercies are new every day.
That's the best of all things, to have something new. And again, I think of Revelation 21, which by the way, when I was with Tony, I just heard my father, who's an amazing pastor, preached so well on Revelation 21. What he called the other side of Christmas. Speaking of this all how new heaven, new Earth, Christ, making all things new.
And one of those things that hit me again in that sermon was that Christ is making all things new now. All new things, right? Amen. So that means that we get to be beneficiaries. Of the changing power of Christ, what a joy it is to have fresh beginnings, to have a new start without being made all over again.
And so this time of year naturally draws our mind to those things again, some of us make resolutions, some of us don't. Whatever your preference and your priority is, that's fine by me. I think this gives us a chance to be reminded that at the beginning of something new, at the start or turnover of something different, it does orient our minds to thinking.
What can I change? What can I process in a new and maybe more prolific or profound way? And so it just so happens that I want to make this New Year's treat for you, dear listener, brother or sister, because I happen to just come across a book that I've just finished reading in this new year. That I think sets us up perfectly with this in mind.
[00:04:56] Jesse Schwamb: If one of our goals just generally is to be more Christ-like, not for the sake of just emulating Christ per se, but because we see in him all that is elegant and beautiful and righteous and worthy, and so we want to partake in that kind of life and a very, very real way, and it just so happens well.
Nothing, just so happens providentially. What happened is that I came across, as I was looking through the stack of unread books, the things that I wanted to read, one just happened to catch my eye, and it was by John Owen. And it's a book about being free from the dominion of sin, and I picked it up thinking, I don't know, I'd read a lot about this idea of what it means to have sin and grace in your life and that this would be another great treatise on how to explore those concepts.
But what I found was, I think something so much deeper that was a treat already for me in this new year, and I think that's setting me up for how to process and frame and to think going forward in this new year. This is a phenomenal book. It's really not that long, so you can go read it yourselves, but the treat maybe might just be that you don't have to read it.
Let me bring forward some of the themes for us to consider, because I think this is a great way to start the year. In fact, I have read that the 19th century Scottish professor, John Duncan, would assign this book to a student. So as he was training particularly for ministry, and when he would assign this book to them for reading, he would say.
Gentlemen, prepare yourselves for the knife. I mean, what an opening, what an opening gambit for somebody who's recommending a book to you or acquiring that you read a book. And like Owen's stuff, I think that this is true. It's the kind of book that doesn't pull any punches. I mean, this whole book is written on a single verse from Romans 12, uh, Romans chapter six, verse 12, and the verse reads, let not sin, therefore reign in your mortal body to make you obey its passions.
And what basically Owen unpacks from that is he draws back to this idea of what it means to be not under the law, but now under grace. Now you guys probably know if you know anything about. John Owen, he was a Puritan hanging out in the 17th century and he wrote like he got paid by the Semicolon and this book called Free From Sins Dominion.
It, you know, it sounds like a victory lap, doesn't it? For the Christian, and this is what I wanna get into, this is where some of the treat lies. It sounds like we're saying, I'm free, I'm done, I'm out. And Owen is there with his knife. He's there lovingly and firmly and repeatedly to say yes. But also, no, not, no in.
There's no freedom, but no, as in you don't understand what kind of freedom this is. That's why it's so critical to think about this. So I thought let's hang out for a couple minutes. Let's walk through some of these ideas. This is all Owen. It's all stuff I've been processing. I'm hoping that it'll be something that sets you up for the new year, helps you think a little bit about what goals you might have.
And by the way, I don't think it's a bad idea to set some goals for yourself as long as you're not legalistic, but you come into this with a renewed passion to serve the Lord Jesus. In 2026 in big and faith reaching ways. I think all of that calls us to kind of communal response in living out the theology that we espouse or the things that we pack into our mind.
We're all gonna track probably this year, or many of us do if we're nerdy like you are Me, the things that we listen to and the things that we read. But what about the end of the year? Like the content and the spiritual depth of our lives. If we could measure that, if we could actually think back on it and meditate on what have we done, what have we tried to process, what have we tried to live out?
I don't think it's a bad idea to say to yourself, if I'm going to think about that this time next year, what will I have to think about, if anything? So I think Owen really sets us up here with this big idea.
[00:08:39] Jesse Schwamb: And the big idea is this, sin still lives in believers, but it no longer rules believers. Sin still lives in believers, but it does not rule there anymore.
It remains a presence, but it's not a king. It still barks but doesn't own the house. And if you're thinking, well, great, so why does it feel like sin has a mortgage on my soul? Owen has answers for us. And those are questions that equally, almost every day I think about. And the beauty is he's not gentle about it, but he's deeply pastoral.
He's like a doctor who tells you the truth while he also hands you the medicine. And that's one of the things I really like about this book. So let's talk about this idea of dominion. Why even throw that in the title Dominion's, kind of an old tiny word of power and control, and I dunno how often you use dominion like in your vocabulary, just casually when you're talking to people.
But he starts off by essentially telling us what he means by this. Actually, more importantly, like what scripture means about sins, dominion, it's rain. It's talking about rule mastery governing power. Dominion means sin, calls the shots, sets the direction, issues the order, and gets obeyed. And so. After all that's set up, the question that we get that's diagnostic is, and I pose this to you, is sin merely present in you or is sin in charge of you because it's not the same thing.
I think believers with various senses of conscience and sensitivity to these, these things will process that differently. And you should try to understand is sin merely present in you or is sin in charge of you? And I might add not just in charge writ large, but are there areas of your life where you've courted off, sectioned off where sin is in charge, where it is calling all the shots?
A believer may feel sin painfully. I mean, I think there are times by God's grace that I do, and I'm sure there are times when you as well feel that way. Sin may harass. Attempt interrupt and disturb, but. The scripture insists that that's different than sin reigning. In other words, the believers fight with sin is now proof of sins dominion, actually, it's often proof sin has lost dominion, and I think this should be great encouragement to us.
Lemme say it like a different way, tyrants. Don't usually get resisted by loyal subjects, and the resistance itself tells you something has changed. If you are rebellious against sin, then this shows something about your power to one, perceive it to be an enemy, even if it's present you're in the war, but also that there is power that you've received.
Externally to recognize and then to fight against that sin, and no one knows that. The tender conscience is going to panic here because that's what tender conscience always do. Tony and I talked about that. If you're tender, you hear sin and your soul immediately opens 12 tabs entitled, what have I Not Saved?
And we've joked about how this is kind of one of those things, especially in reformed circles, where we are so quick and insistent to show the depravity of sin, to emphasize the point, and then to bring the law to exemplify that point that sometimes this, especially among the sheep, those who are saved, those called in Christ, they become discouraged.
And whether it's any of the Puritan writers who emphasize that without coming alongside and presenting the gospel side by side, or even more contemporary examples, you know, you've heard Tony and I joke about, you know, all these preachers who will really come down too hard almost on God's own people.
And this is where it's so important that we understand that yes, the bad news is absolutely necessary. I mean, first of all, the bad news is truth, and that is that we are totally depraved, not as depraved as we can or should be, but depraved in every. Part of our own lives such that sin is prolific and ubiquitous and therefore taints all things That is literally a death sentence.
And this is why the good news is good, because it's good news about bad news and that is that where that bad news is present. Here comes Christ as this second or the last Adam. So as in one. One man's sin all died in one man's sacrifice and righteousness all will live. Those who repent and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.
That is the good news. So Owen slows down and he says, look at the category. Dominion is not the same as influence, not the same as temptation, not the same as indwelling corruption. Dominion is a throne, and sin may still throw stones at the palace, but if Christ is king, then sin isn't. I think you heard me say on one of the more recent episodes.
That we all are slave to something or someone. So the question isn't who is your master, but what is your master like? And that's really what Paul is after in Romans. And what Owen kind of picks up here is his question is one of dominion. Woo. Who is set up on that throne? Two kingdoms, two masters. There's just one human heart.
And so the frame is that we are living always under a ruler. Ruler, or I think like some of the more. Literal translation of the scripture will insert the word slave there instead of servant. To really emphasize this point that you're either under sins reign or you're under grace's reign, this is one of those things in life that's truly binary.
You're either under sins reign or under Grace's reign. And here's the major reform note that Tony of I have. Really just some of our conversations have gravitated towards. You don't slowly graduate out of sins dominion by self-improvement. You don't level up into freedom like it's spiritual Mario car, you know.
The whole point of Paul bringing forward this contrast is that freedom comes through a change of lordship. Sin is not just a list of bad actions, it's a power, it's a master, it's a dominion. And grace is also a reign, not mere leniency. It's not like the opposite or it's not like some cosmic boys will be boys, but it's a ruling power through Christ.
And so the heart question becomes who rules you and who rules me? In all areas of our life, I think the Christian will be quick to say, well, Christ does reign. I think what Paul is drilling out here is more specifically, but who reigns in your finances? Who reigns in your sexuality? Who reigns in how you spend your time?
Who reigns in how you serve others? Who reigns in your disposition? Who reigns in how you take care of your family? Owen is totally allergic to superficial religion. It's one of the things I really like about him. You can have religious habits and still live under sins, dominion. You can have theological vocabulary, strong opinions, even church involvement, and still sin is the practical king.
And so we're really after, in this new year, at least, I want to be, what is the practical rule in dominion that supersedes everything in my life? And again, even the areas that I find difficult or that are tough where, who is ruling in those areas? Because the dominion of sin isn't measured by whether you have a conscience, but it's measured by whether you submit to sin as a governing authority.
And I think the challenge here for us isn't, again, just are we submitting everywhere to. As a governing authority, but are there places where we do carve out purposefully running headlong into planning where we allow sin to call the shots, where we, even if after the fact we, we have and expressed some remorse over those things, but in one point in this book, Owen says something so succinctly, it really just hit me upside the head and it was that he said something the extent of.
The Christian that does not pray against the temptation that they know they will face is not truly repentant when they pray against it after it has occurred. That was the knife, brothers and sisters. 'cause I was like, amen. That's right on. And that's I think what Paul is drawing us to here, that the real reign and rule of Christ is one of power.
And if we so desire it, if. Pray and ask or quest, the Holy Spirit move us from glory into glory. Even in these places where we find sin intractable, then we should want to wage war by the power of Christ. And there is real power to do away with sin, not entirely, but to face up against these temptations with strength so that our spiritual character, our spiritual resolve, our spiritual depth, authenticity, and abundant life is not ruined, destroyed, or hampered.
And so sin reigns. Of course for all of us in the old self, the, the old management Owen describes what it looks like when sin rules. He says it does so with the precision of someone who has watched his own heart long enough to be unimpressed. And so see here's, here's what he gives as some practical tips and I give to you.
[00:17:02] Jesse Schwamb: I'm just passing them along for this new year to get a sense for whether sin is raining or not. Here's, here's a couple things. One is that the will is bent towards sin as the preferred path, and that is there. Maybe there are parts in your life where there are mine, where that's where you want to go, and you know you probably shouldn't, but that's where you want to go.
The mind excuses sin, rationalizes sin or defends sin. I think we all have those characteristics in our lives. We say, well, I, I'll get to that eventually, or there'll be a better time for me to really confront that kind of sin. And so we make excuses or we just say, this is how it is, or this is how I was made, or this is my personality.
Another way in which sin reigns, or we can discern that it's raining. Is the affection love sin? Maybe not openly, but functionally. Or that the person yields as a pattern, not merely as a stumble. That is that we've cut ourselves into a groove of doing these things and at some point we just fall on our desire to actually move ourselves or pray that Christ would move us out of those things.
And so in Sin Dominion, a person may feel occasional regret, but the overall direction is sin gets its way. And I think if we're all honest. I think Owen is calling us to again, look at all areas of our life where we know that there are pathways in which we run headlong in that sinful way, and that we allow sin to get hiss own way.
And I think Owen is careful. Sin doesn't need you to enjoy every sin. I think sin, if we're like personifying, it is happy if you just obey. I mean, sin can rule through fear, habit, appetite, reputation, secret, compromise, whatever keeps you under its thumb, but it will attempt to keep you under its thumb.
Thumb. So you can think of it this way. Sin doesn't need you to throw a parade for it. Sin just needs you to keep paying tribute. And I, when I thought about this, I thought that is so correct and this is why it is so dangerous. Why does so compromising, why it costs so much because. Not only is it powerful in its rule and dominion, but that rule and dominion is one of just conscious and ongoing destruction.
It's emptiness in the committing of the sin. Even if you thought it would bring you even some kind of temporary relief, while often knowing in the act or while you're pursuing it, that's gonna leave you empty and destroyed. And that's all it does. So this dangerous loop, I mean, you can imagine this is reading.
This made me just think. How much mercy we ought to have for those who are around us, who are blinded by sin as we once were, who are living in darkness, which of course, why the Bible speaks of these themes of Christ coming in light to bring forward the illuminating presence of God's love and the purifying power of His forgiveness in his mercy, because the opposite of that is stumbling around living in darkness.
And so I love that Owen. Owen and Paul of course, pulls us into this direction of saying, here is how sin loses its dominion. Then if all those things are true and they can be true, and I think even like little corners of our living spaces, then how does SIM sin lose that dominion?
[00:20:17] Jesse Schwamb: And the answer is, union with Christ, this blessed union with Christ that we get, I mean the best of all New Year's treats when we come into the family of Christ, when he saves us, when we reach out to him with repentance and forgiveness, and he restores us into a new and living hope.
And here's the anchor sins, dominion. Is broken through that union. It's broken through that gospel. It's broken through all of the good work of Jesus Christ applied onto your behalf and to mine, not through vibes, of course, not through trying hider not through a streak counter. You know, it's not as if we come forward and somehow elevate ourselves to the place of the deserving poor and bring our empty hands and say, I'm now ready to receive our gift.
I think all of us know better than that. When we recognize how sinful and corrupt even we are in the saved state. That is that we still feel that battle that Paul talks about wanting to do these things and not being able to do the very things that I want to do, but the believer. Is joined to Christ in his death and resurrection, and that union changes everything.
I mean, think about that for a second. Joined in his death and his resurrection, like now, both of those things true. You are so tightly coupled and interwoven to those things that cannot be dissolved or separated. And of course that should change everything. If we recognize the weight of that one, it does change our both status, our identity, and it changes our harmony with Christ.
So Owen, I think wants us to see in his writing here that Christianity is not primarily, of course, behavioral modification. It's a whole new reality. That's why, you know, Paul can write, listen, I'm a new creation in Christ, brand new again. He's making all things new. He's making all things new. He's making you new.
He's making me new. It's like the Oprah style. You get new and you get you, and you are getting new when Christ is doing his work. And when is Christ doing his work? Always in his children. So Christ of course, didn't merely come to forgive sins guilt. He also came to break sins rule, and this is like the joy of living in 2026 when we know we have a victorious savior and that that victory applies to us in the here and now as well as when we'll be glorified.
And that matters because some of us only think of salvation like this. Jesus forgives me. God won't punish me, and that's fantastic. I mean, maybe we might go as far to say Jesus forgives me, and so now I have the God's blessing. But it's even more and bigger than that. It's all true. But what Paul is saying here is that's not the whole story.
Grace doesn't just pirate in rebels. Grace transfers rebels into a new kingdom.
[00:22:51] Jesse Schwamb: Grace doesn't merely cancel your debt, it changes your master. So when the New Testament says you're not under sin, but under grace, here's what Owen hears and he's articulating. A new dominion has been installed. A new king now rules with a new principle by the spirit through faith according to Christ.
[00:23:09] Jesse Schwamb: Now of course, there is a, but I still sin. There's presence versus the power in this, and that's where Owen anticipates the question that every honest, Christian, Christian asks, and I'm sure you have to, and that is okay. Level with me though, practically speaking. If I'm free from Sins Dominion, why do I still sin?
And I love that. One of the great things about puritanical writing is that they love to set this up where they actually create their own objections and put them into the book. So you're, you're reading something, a treatise from some Puritan, and all of a sudden you'll find in the main argument, here's an opposition.
And you might think, I, I wasn't even thinking about that yet, but now I am. And so I think if you didn't think about it yet, you should be asking yourself, well, if I'm really free. From Sin Dominion as you're promulgating, as you're saying in this little treat of the new year, then why in this new year in 2020 6:00 AM I gonna sin?
And I guarantee you, you will sin. And so why? I mean, it's already been. Four days. So for me, there's been a lot of since happened and a lot of grace and forgiveness. So Owen's answer is, uh, comforting and bracing. So, strap in. Here's what he says. He says, you sin because sin remains in you, but it no longer reigns over you.
It's there, but it does not reign over you. You'll may be thinking like this, that's just semantics. Uh, why that doesn't help me at all. Hang in there. I think this is like the meat of what Owen gives us in this new year now, even though he wrote in the 17th century to really give us, to hold onto by the power of the spirit to make changes that are spirit empowered and to move forward with victory and grace.
Understanding that all of that victory, all of that battle belongs to the Lord. So indwelling sin is like a gorilla force. It's active, it's disruptive, and it's often humiliating, but it's not sovereign unless you surrender the throne. I wanna say that again. It is this gorilla force. It is this thing that's trying to act and disrupt and to humiliate you and to bring destruction, but it is not sovereign unless you surrender.
[00:25:11] Jesse Schwamb: And here's a practical test that Owen actually gives us in the book. It's not to torment us, I think, but it's a test to help clarify. And I've been thinking about this and I think you should too. Here's a couple questions. When you sin, do you make peace with it or do you make war on it? Do you hide sin to protect it or do you expose sin to kill it?
Do you justify or do you confess it? And do you plan it, cherish it, defend it, or do you grieve it and fight it? Aren't those good? I mean, stop now and go back like 15 seconds and listen to those again if you need to, and you might, or write those down. Put those in like a little journal as I have and put those before you this year as you evaluate.
Are you surrendering the throne, so to speak on these things? Do you cherish sin? Do you make peace with it? Do you justify it or do you make war on it? Do you expose it and bring it into the light? Do you confess it and do you fight against it? You know, Owen's Pastoral brilliance is that he doesn't say believers never fall.
He says, believers don't settle. And since Dominion is less about some kind of single act and more about a settled arrangement, a covenant with sin and of course with a covenant in Christ is that bigger, better, glorious covenant, the one that restores us, give us abundant life and fulfills us. And if we replace it within any place, a covenant of sin, what we get is not just the, the opposite of that.
But we get sheer destruction. We get darkness, we get blackness. If you're constantly negotiating terms with sin, okay, sin, you can have this corner of my life and I'll keep the rest. Then I think what Paul and Owen would, Owen would say to us here is you're playing with chains. You're literally, we are allowing ourselves to be bound, even if it's in some small way, and to be bound in any ways to be bound overall if you're fighting, even if it's often clumsy like me, often tired, sometimes failing your warfare is probably evidence of grace's reign.
That power of God in your life to bring forward real change for the battle. And this is what we've, Tony and I talk about all the time.
[00:27:23] Jesse Schwamb: It's this very ordinary means of grace. In other words, like God delights to provide this kind of supply and resource to you, and it's his best way. He doesn't point you to some secret hacks.
There's no, you know, like list of like 20 things you can do in 2026 or probably should have said 26 things you can do in 2026, um, to be. A better follower of Jesus Christ. Instead, he points you to the Spirit working through God's appointed channels, these ordinary means of grace. What are those things again?
This is old truth. For a new year, we know that grace reigns through the word of God. Not merely read, but received, heard with faith, applied with honesty, especially on the Lord's day. Prayer, not as performance, but as dependence, both public and private. The sacraments, the ordinances as God's visible grace to strengthen faith, and then fellowship and accountability because lone sheep Christianity is basically wolf delivery, right?
These things. I think we sometimes set aside in the search for the hacks, the things on YouTube that catch our eye, that say, wouldn't it be an easy way to get outsized and leveraged improvement in my life if I could just do these things? And God says, no, no, no. What I've given to you is these means of grace.
And guess what? They're simple but profound. They're ordinary, but extraordinary in their effect. And they're the word prayer, sacrament, sacraments, and fellowship and accountability. So. Loved ones. We cannot get lost in the sauce on this. These are the things that God gives us. We ought to lean into those things, trust them.
And entrust ourselves to them because Paul is not saying that those things are gonna save you, nor are Owen. He's saying this is how the king's power is experienced in the life of the citizen. And these two mark, the fact that grace reigns and has dominion over our life rather than sin. If you want freedom from sins, daily tyranny, don't just glare at your sin and make speeches.
You know, use the weapons Christ gives because of the hard truth. Owen would gladly press, I think, into our modern habits, and it's this, a neglected bible and a prayerless life do not create, quote unquote, mysterious seasons of spiritual dryness. They create predictable weakness, and that's a really hard truth because I know that we're all busy.
But this idea of spending time, meditating, praying. Crying out to God that these things prevent. In some ways this predictable weakness and the grace reigns in the life where Christ is trusted, and we need these ordinary means to trust ourselves more to Christ, and Christ is trusted. Where Christ is attended to.
And so our attending to Christ happens in these ordinary means. Aren't you glad they're ordinary means? Because if they're, if we had to attend to Christ in extraordinary means, we couldn't even accomplish that. And so the aim then is not gonna be some kinda sinless perfection, but real liberation. I mean, here's the good stuff.
Owen's aim in this treatise is not to make you pretend that you're fine. And I love that because we, we shouldn't, my wife likes to say, I'm fine. It's all fine, everything's fine. And I, I sometimes challenge her and I say, you know, it's okay. That's not fine because there are many things that are just not fine.
We do not have to try to manufacture and sing songs of joy at the grave of Lazarus. You know, Christ's aim in this is to open our eyes to our own depravity, our own contingency, and then to rely on him completely and fully as the savior that he is. The savior that he was when he lived in perfect past of obedience and also died.
And so what we have from him is this promise that he will take care of us in the current state, and that current state draws us closer and closer to him if we recognize it by the power of the Holy Spirit.
[00:31:21] Jesse Schwamb: And so Paul's aim is to help you and me live like someone who has been actually set free. And I think here's what freedom from sins domain means.
It means things like we can say no from the heart, not merely from embarrassment. That as we look at sin and we can look on our savior who is crucified and we can say from the heart, I refuse to participate in that. I know it grieves the Holy Spirit. It grieves God the Father. It grieves God the son. It means that we can confess sin without collapsing in despair.
It means that we can hold these two tensions in reality that we are simultaneously sinner and saint. It can't be 2026 without a little bit of Luther. It means that we can recognize that we are in a great amount of. Full depravity under sins weight without falling in, collapsing into ourselves into complete de depression and despair.
It means that we can fight sin without trying to earn God's love. That God's love itself solidifying us. And identity as his children means that he does give us every supply in dire time of need to fight sin without fearing that we are somehow losing his love in the fight. But that because he loves us, he's with the fight.
In fact, he's the one that underwrites our battle, that equips us with the armor that sends us out with the weapons, knowing that we are in a state of depravity, and that yet he has changed our identity and reset our course, and now equipped us to fight the battle which we find ourselves in as he's with us.
It means that we can pursue holiness. Because we've been adopted and not just because we're trying to audition for God or that we're trying again to earn his favor by merit, it means that the holiness that we seek after now we don't have to worry about some part of our mind is, am I doing this? Because it'll somehow ingratiate God towards me a little bit more, or maybe today if I'm really good, or if I spend 45 minutes in prayer or two minutes in prayer or 10 minutes in the Bible, that I'll have a better day or God will appreciate me more.
He will draw closer to me. Now Owen says, listen, you can pursue holiness when you're under the reign of grace because you've already been adopted and so therefore there's no more performance necessary. There's no more worrying about, there's more guilt about why you do it. There's no more thinking about it in any kinda legalistic terms.
Throw all of that out because you're not auditioning anymore. You're already in the family. I think Owen would absolutely say, if you belong to Christ, your life cannot be a comfortable home for sin. And if you feel in some ways as I do that there are parts of your life where sin is very comfortable, and maybe even before it gets to the door and rings the bell that you're already opening and welcoming it in, then we ought to just pray.
Pray desperately to God that he would make our lives such that they would not be a comfortable home for sin. If he has to break us, if he has to crush us, if he has to cut us, if he has to take us over the anvil as it were of his grace, and strike us with the hammer of the law so that he could mold us in the gospel into some kind of beautiful and useful instrument for his glory, that in 2026 loved ones, we ought to pray that way.
And I know that's. Not an easy way to pray. It is a way though that promises that grace will reign and have dominion over our lives. It's not because God is petty, it's not because grace is fragile, but because a new reign has begun.
[00:35:02] Jesse Schwamb: So here's some final encouragement I think that. Owen gives us in this writing on this, what does it mean to be free from sins Dominion?
Here's what I think he would say is we can't deny the battle. Paul doesn't, and Owen doesn't. He dignifies it. Both of those men do. They tell you that the struggle is real. But they refuse to let you call defeat normal Christianity. Uh, maybe there's no such thing as normal Christianity. 'cause Christianity by itself is something so otherworldly, something so inconceivable.
We at once recognize that the bad news, that sin is prolific, it's destructive. Is hurtful, is so unkind is everywhere, and it hurts us. It hurts the believer and the unbeliever alike. And then this idea, this almost breathtaking, inconceivable idea that God himself loved his creation so much that he would send his own son to come and to bring restoration.
That Revelation 21 style, all things new is. Wild. Of course it's otherworldly because it doesn't make any sense if you're in Christ. The good news is for this year and all others, sin is not your king. Uh, maybe some people like need to hear that again, or maybe there's somebody in the back, you didn't hear it the first time.
If you're in Christ, sin is not your king. That doesn't mean that you'll never feel temptation. It doesn't mean that you'll never have ugly moments. You wish you could erase. It doesn't even mean sanctification is quick, neat, or Instagramable, but it does mean this since Dominion has been broken. Grace now reigns.
Christ is a ruler and the spirit is at work in you and me. So we don't wanna interpret the presence of conflict as the absence of grace. Now sometimes conflict is the very evidence that Grace has moved in and started an eviction. That if you are a rebel against sin, then Grace is ruling and has dominion in your life.
And as you fight, as I fight, here's what we need to remember together. The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare. Yes, but it's warfare under a victorious. King. I mean, Jesus himself is the one raising the flag on the battlefield, calling us out.
So take heart, Christian, take heart. Dear ones, take heart, loved ones. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. That I think is how John Owen would summarize. Free from Sins Dominion. Sin still dwells, but no longer rules. Grace doesn't just forgive your rebellion.
It overthrows the rebel regime. So I hope that that is in some way a small little treat as advertised for the new year, at least. Something for you and me to think about as we go into 2026. There's so much more. That we could say there is so much that we could talk about in terms of law and gospel and grace and antinomianism.
But I think the most important thing for us to remember is that Christ's grip on us is unbreakable, and that grip ushers us into and sustains us in this dominion of grace. And at the same time when I think Paul and Owen would challenge us with. Is that we need to remember that while Christ rules overall, we ought to examine ourselves and find those places where we do not allow him, or we restrict his rule in movement or we fight against him instead of fighting against the sin.
Which he's empowered us to tackle. Again, this doesn't mean that we'll be perfect, it means that we will continue on sinning, but I hope what you've gotten from Owen and what you've read here from Paul is this idea of the tender-hearted Christian that is. Resilient because of Christ that even in every fall there is a lot of resurrection, and that when we do stumble, that we get back up.
We seek repentance quickly. We keep short accounts with God. We move forward by his love and his power so that there is increasing levels of defeat, of sin, of mortification, of sin according to another work by John Owens in all of those things. I hope that we'll be reminded that in this year ahead there is victory for you and there is victory for me.
So that's the treat loved ones. We'll be back with your regularly scheduled, dual hosted programming very, very, very, very soon. Again, the rumors of Tony's demise have been greatly exaggerated and he will be back to join us. But before we get to the very, very close, there's a couple of things I wanna put before you as the new year begins.
First, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you to everybody. Thank you to people who listen. Thank you, people who will come and hang out in the telegram chat, which by the way, you can get to by going to t Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood. Thank you for those. Who pray for us. Thank you for those who send notes of encouragement.
Thank you for the feedback and thank you for your participation because this was really meant to be a conversation that Tony and I started 10 years ago that really we thought we'd love to have other people join in on. And by God's grace and his design and great providence, they have in a ways that have been like totally unexpected.
The Telegram Chat, for instance, is a way where brothers and sisters from all over the world are hanging out and just loving. Talking about processing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And man, is that a super delight. So do hope maybe in 2026 you'll make it your own resolution to just come poke around in there and coming out with us.
I would love to meet you. So come say hello. The last thing I wanna say thank you for is all of those who give financially to make sure the podcast. Still happens, to be honest with you. It's surprisingly expensive to do the podcast. And so whether it's like the hosting fees or the processing stuff, or just publishing the episodes, making them arrive wherever they arrive so that you can have them in the moment that you expect them to show up is costly.
And so at some point people started to ask, lovely Brothers, sisters said, you know what? I can't give a lot, but could I give a little something to make sure that it just keeps happening so that it moves forward? And so if you're in that place this year and you've thought, you know what? I would love to just give one unit of whatever currency it is and where you live in the world, we would be so happy and humbled for you to do that because that's what so many have done.
And all those little things add up. So if you are thinking, you know what, God has blessed in this podcast, and if he has, we certainly know it's not because of me, and it's not because of Tony. It's because God is good and His word does what His word does. It goes out and never returns void. And we hope that we're just constantly speaking and processing, metabolizing, chewing on that word.
And just bring it before you in conversation, because I know I can speak for Tony. We just love to talk about Jesus. We love God because he first loved us. I'm still constantly, every day amazed, even in this fourth day of the new year that God loves me and that he's for me, that he's with me in this year.
It's an incredible thing, and so if you feel that way too and are wanting to connect or give to something toward that end, we love for you to do that. Uh, here's the logistics. If you wanna do that, just go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood patreon.com/reform brotherhood, and you could give a one time or reoccurring gift.
You could do that in 2026 and a. I wanna say for all those who do that, and by the way, there have been brothers and sisters that have given to this podcast. So you can hear it every week, every time it shows up that have given four years to make that happen. And man, does that undo me because that is such a gift to God's people just allowing us to continue to speak his name and to put it out into the interwebs unapologetically.
And so that there are no Jericho paywalls that need to be torn down. There's no weird ads in the middle of this. There's no annoying bumpers at the beginning of the end. It's just us being able to talk about Jesus, and I love that. Lastly, I say to you, brothers and sisters come along with me and Tony this year.
We've got so many things we want to talk about. The list of parables that we're gonna continue to process together and go through is so big. I just never really have gotten a full appreciation. For all these amazing things that Jesus is teaching in the parables and how many of them there are, and even the ones that are like on the margin, where people are like, well, it could be a parable, it could not.
And we're just like, we're doing 'em all. We're doing 'em all. So I think that's gonna be most of our 2026, but I think we're going to really, really enjoy it together. So we'll be back at that very, very soon. I wish you the best, most profitable, productive, and spiritually filled, abundant year ahead of you. I pray for all of you that I'll be the best one yet, and it will be the best one because you will take seriously.
What Owen and what Paul has challenged us with here, and that is that we ought to ensure that grace has dominion over our lives. So get in there. Get in the battle. Get in the struggle. Embrace those ordinary means. Know that God is for you, and that he's freed you from sins dominion. And until we talk about something else next time, honor everyone.
Love the brotherhood.
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In episode 474 of The Reformed Brotherhood, host Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological question: "Is God humble?" Through a careful examination of Philippians 2 and the narrative of Pharaoh in Exodus, Jesse unpacks how Christ's incarnation represents the ultimate act of divine humility. This episode reveals how Jesus—fully God and fully man—humbled himself through obedience to the point of death on a cross. As we approach the Christmas season, this timely reflection helps us understand that Christ's humility isn't just a theological concept but the very foundation of our salvation and the magnetic force that draws sinners to him. Jesse connects this humility to Jesus' parables about seeking the lost, showing that God's love manifests through the paradox of the exalted one becoming lowly.
Christ's humility represents one of the most astonishing paradoxes in Scripture. As Jesse explains, humility is properly understood as a creaturely virtue—it acknowledges God as Lord and obeys as a servant. For the eternal Son to humble himself, he first had to take on human nature. The incarnation wasn't God ceasing to be God but rather God adding humanity to himself. The divine Son emptied himself "not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world."
This emptying makes possible Christ's perfect obedience. Since humility means acknowledging God as Lord and obeying as a servant, the Son took "the form of a servant being born in the likeness of men." This allowed Jesus to demonstrate a servant heart with equal passion for God's holiness and his people's purity. Unlike our inconsistent obedience, Jesus' obedience was "an all the way kind of obedience" that persisted through suffering to death on a cross.
One of the most profound insights from the episode is how Christ's humility functions as a magnetic force drawing sinners to him. Jesse notes that in the parables, tax collectors and sinners were drawn not to the Pharisees' teaching but to Jesus himself. They came "almost magnetically" to be in his presence and hear his words. Why would this be?
The answer lies in recognizing that "we all have a master" and "we are all bound to something." The critical question becomes: "How good and kind is your master?" Christ's humility reveals him to be the perfect master—one who does not lord his authority over us but uses it to serve us, even to the point of death. This servant-hearted humility draws people because it demonstrates love in action. When Jesus humbles himself to seek the lost, he reveals that the gospel isn't about making "naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him."
"To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant. In order to do so, then the Son had to take this form of a servant being born in the likeness of men."
"Christ's obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience. It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else."
"To humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather is pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity. To humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made."
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so.
Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people.
Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where all of mankind is on the naughty list. Hey, brothers and sisters, I am solo hosting once again on this episode, but I don't want you to worry. Tony will be back. Tony is alive and well. He is out in the wild doing his thing.
Actually, this is probably the time of year where Tony and I bring forward that annual or perennial denial. You know, the one, it's sy against the frailty, weakness, contingency of humankind. And most often manifested in this time of year in sickness. So I don't know where you live in the world, but in my part of the world, everybody's getting it and everything is going around.
The sickness is everywhere. And even if you're bobbing and weaving, if you're laying low, if you're trying to keep your head down, it just seems somehow. To snipe you. And so it sniped Tony last week and this week. Now it is his family and so he's doing what we shall do for another. He's caring for those in his own regard that are sick and unwell.
And so that means it's just me on this particular episode, but not to fear. We've got lots of great things to talk about.
[00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: In fact, the whole purpose of this episode is going to be talking about this question is God humble and. This, if you think it's just a one-off episode. It's actually born out of this continued series that we're doing where we're going through the parables.
And again, we've been talking a lot about lostness and finding things and Christ coming and seeking, saving those things that were very lost. And so as I continue to process this with Tony, one of the things that keeps coming to my mind is this question is God. Humble and what does that even have to do with any of these wild parables that we've been talking about?
You know the ones too, especially if you've been listening along and hopefully you have go back, check those bad boys out. We've been talking about the lost coin, the lost Sheep, and we have yet to get to because we're just teasing this for you. We, we keep telling you it's coming, but that's just to build like this amazing anticipation for the parable of the lost son or the prodigal son.
It's coming, and part of that, again, for me is wrapped up in this question, is God humble? So let's talk about that a little bit.
[00:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's interesting to me that throughout the scriptures, we find across both all the New Testament, that God gives us this imperative to seek humility or to put on humility, or to have a humble mind, as Peter says.
And it's something that is so ubiquitous that we kind of just flies by us. Of course. Like we would get the sense that it would be ridiculous to be like. I am so good at being humble that that in itself is oxymoronic. And yet we also know that we don't want to advertise, that we're trying to seek after humility.
'cause it seems like that's the very thing that we're trying to avoid in proclaiming or promulgating our pride and that kind of thing. But it's not just that, of course, God is seeking his children to be humble, but I think one of the most condemning things the scripture says to us about how God behaves.
Toward people is that he opposes the proud. So the opposite of being humble, and we'll get to that in a second. We had to define what that means, but let's just take for a second that the opposite of that might be being prideful. It is fascinating that it's not just God is indifferent toward pride, that he does everything in his volition to push against it.
And of course, because nothing can thwart the outstretched in mighty arm of God, that means that he wins inevitably against all that is pride prideful. And so he opposes it. And this is what. We should realize is that really the eschatological judgment, the fact that there is both heaven and hell reward and eternal punishment.
This is a reflection of God opposing the proud that in the final state, the one who says, I want nothing to do with God because I can take care of it myself, is the one that God must oppose pose because he always. Opposes that which is prideful, and so it makes sense. Then if he opposes the proud, if that is in a way, an enemy that he will ultimately defeat, it cannot stand up against him that shouldn't.
That in that path is both destruction that is internally derived and chosen, but also destruction that comes externally because it will be defeated. Then the best thing that God's people could be is to be humble. And so the question I think then persists, can God be humble? Is God. Humble. One of the things that is clear in scripture, again, this is the testimony of the entire arc of the salvific story of God and his recu of his people.
Um, the coming and drawing close giving of himself so that he might draw people onto himself. Is that the testimony of humility is both positive and negative in the scriptures. So we could look at examples of those who humbled themselves. That's what the scripture says, like Josiah, Hezekiah, Rebo, Ahab, Vanessa, and then there, of course, you could probably think of as just as many negative examples who did not.
What comes to my mind, of course, is Pharaoh. Or am Amen or Zetia. So what becomes clear though is when you look at those examples that the humbling first belongs to the hand of God. That even here, once again, God's doing all the verbs. That's exactly what he does. And so this idea of even like humbling yourself.
Has like a precursor, there's an antecedent. And is God doing some kind of great work to allow for this humbling to even take place? He initiates the humbling of his creatures. And once he has, then the question confronts us, uh, which is, are we going to receive it? How will we bear up underneath it? Will we submit ourselves to it because God has allowed us, or has humbled ourselves first so that we don't respond in kind.
So in response to his humbling hand. Will we kick against him? Or as the, you know, king James version says, will we kick against the gods or are we going to come and humble ourselves before God? So this idea, I think of humbling ourselves isn't just like you wake up one day and you say, no, it'd be really fantastic.
Is my life would be better if I was just humble. I, I hear that God opposed to the proud, I don't wanna get. Lost in that. I don't wanna get wrapped in that. I would rather, instead I just become more humble. Even the ability to humble oneself first comes from this humbling hand of God, which is of course the greatest gift.
And so of course Peter writes, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God. I mean, that's where I'm drawing this from and. That is the first descent of humility. The first coming down is a word that God would do that for us, will put us in a place that we might be humbled. And then the creature has somewhat in his turn kind of imperfect language, but somehow in his response that God is humbling me.
Will I embrace it? Will I humble myself? So given that background, I think you know exactly where I'm about to go in the scripture, and that is. The pretty, I would say, epic passage of humility, which is Philippians two. It's one of the most striking assertions in all of scriptures. That Christ himself, Jesus the Savior, the one who is truly God and truly man, he humbled himself and God himself truly divine, truly human, and the person of his son, he humbles himself.
And I think that is worth the slow meditation and a little bit of marveling again, as we consider that in light of. All that happens in these parables about lostness and ness is coming from in some way this first humility. And I think that's just so critical because it's not just context, it's the air in which we breathe and operate and understand who we are and who we are in Christ.
And so I think before like we even assume. I wanna assume like too much about like this idea of humility and then getting it ultimately to this question is God humble, which you may think I just answered by reading Philippians two eight, but in fact I think it's even more complex and more beautiful and more deeply layered than all of that.
I think it's worth for a second, just thinking about this idea of like, what is humility?
[00:08:35] Jesse Schwamb: And as far as I can tell, really the first mention of humility outright, like outright mention explicit notation in the scriptures comes in that showdown between Egypt's Pharaoh and Yahweh mediated through Moses and.
And I picked this because it's really instructive for getting a sense of how the Bible, how the scripture, the Holy Spirit is apprehending this word and driving it into the context so that we might learn from it, so that later on we're told that we ought to exhibit humility, put on humility that we understand it in the way that God has taught it to us.
And so you'll remember. Probably that Moses dared to appear before Pharaoh. He is an Exodus five, and he speaks on Yahweh's behalf, and it's that famous sentence, that famous imperative, let my people go to, which Pharaoh replies in my paraphrase, listen, I don't know who Yahweh is. I have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't listen to his voice. I don't acknowledge him, and therefore you can't go. It's just not gonna happen. What is incredible about this. What I think is like really illustrative for our lives is that Pharaoh swollen in pride here, and again, God's gonna pose him swollen with all of this. Pride has, it's not that he hasn't thought through what he's saying here, it's just that he's made an incredible miscalculation.
He actually did a little mathematics here as the creature, and he decides that. As a creature in relation to the creator God that he does not need to obey. In other words, he does not acknowledge or recognize or know this God, and because he doesn't know any of those things about Yahweh, then he's well within his reason to come to the conclusion that he does not need to obey and therefore he refuses.
The reason why I think that's so critical and a little bit wild is that is exactly what the natural man is prone to do to make this miscalculation built on even some kind of reasonable logic, so to speak. That says, well, because I don't understand it, because I don't see it, because I can't acknowledge it because I've never heard it.
Therefore, it cannot exist. It doesn't exist. It's not worthy of being obeyed. It's a bit like saying, just because I've never seen fire, that's not hot. And so it's crazy here that in the midst of all of that, we could say Pharaoh has made this enormous miscalculation. And so what he's going to do is he's going to essentially oppose God.
He refuses to obey, and then of course, Exodus 10 as we move. This story describes this call to humility, and it is a call to humility, which when I was thinking back through this, I was like, this is wild. Because we tend to think this story as like submission and beating down and humility might not be the principle word.
That comes to our mind when we think about how Har Pharaoh has to ultimately respond. But after seven plagues on the cusp of the eighth plague, God speaks to Pharaoh, and again, he's listen. He says to him, how long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? So fascinating because we have this. Humbling, mighty hand of God, the outstretched work of God, his hand and arm going out into the world of his creation and putting Pharaoh in a particular place and position.
And the piercing question in this context of this extended powerful encounter gives us this glimpse into the heart of humility, which I think is this humility recognizes and obeys the one who is truly. God. So there's not just an intellectual scent, but an experiential knowledge that comes from the revelation of who God is that is under his purview granted to his people, and that then causes us to acknowledge and obey the one who's truly Lord.
It's exact opposite of affairs response, which again says, I don't know that voice. I've never heard it. Who is Yahweh? And instead it's replaced with a humility that acknowledges that God is Lord of all, that Jesus Christ is one only son, and that his Holy Spirit is with and indwells his people and that he is truly Lord.
So humility entails this kind of right view, I think of self. Because Pharaoh Miscalculates, but the humble person makes the right calculus, the one who is created by God and accountable to God, which requires the right view of God as creator and this authority in relation to all his creatures. And so humility then is of course, like not a preoccupation with self or one's, even one's own lowness only in so much as it's in relation to what we just mentioned.
That's a right view of self. It's an agreement with God. Of course confession coming alongside agreeing with God, but it's a mindful and conscious understanding of who God is and his highness, his holiness, that he's high and lifted up, and then the self in respect to his position. You know, that's one of the things that I think always strikes me about humility is that it's this idea and this acknowledgement that God is high and lifted up.
And so while we don't come too hard on ourselves merely because we want to create a pity party, it's a recognition that. Aside from the mediator work of Christ to to stand in the presence of God would to be literally torn asunder by the molecule because his holiness cannot be, or rather, I would say our sinfulness cannot be in this presence of the one who is perfect in majesty and in righteousness, in intellect, and in in comprehension and creativity.
We cannot exist in that space apart from this mediated work of Christ the beautiful. Be editorial, like benevolent distance, so to speak, that Christ creates so that we might come into the presence of God, as Hebrew says, running as it were, coming in, not haphazardly, but purposefully into the throne room of God because.
And his holiness. He's a way to, he's made a way for him to be just and justifier. That is incredible. Loved ones. It's beautiful. And that is all. Again, I think just underneath this parable, it's starting with this sense of humility has brought all of this into play, and it's a critical part of God's design and plan.
There's a condescension, but I think even here, underneath that condescension is something about humility. That is worth discussing. And there is, the question again, is God humble. So put it another way. Humility, I think embraces the reality that you and I. We're not God. You know, pride led to humanity's fall when Adam and Eve desired to be like God, which is contrary to his command and humility would have obeyed his command, which is what we'll see when we come to Christ and especially Christ's work.
So.
[00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb: It strikes me then, and this is why I threw out this question, is like, is God humble? It's kind of a setup, I'll be honest, because all of I said so far, if you are keeping score at home, you probably should be drawing out then that I'm essentially saying that humility is a creaturely virtue. Actually, it's not just me.
A lot of people have said that, a lot of the old ones. I postulate that, that when we think about humility explicitly and in a narrow context, that's a creaturely virtue. It's a posture of. All of who we are, our soul, our body, our life, our activities, our families, our possessions. It's acknowledgement in those things and embracing that the goodness of God and that he is the one who controls and commands all things, all of our destiny, which means.
This question is God humble? It is kind of like linguistically and theologically tricky, like not for the sake of creating a tricky question for like a part of the game, but the the answer is in a sense, no, but not because God, I think is the opposite of what we'd consider humble. He's not arrogant, he's not prideful.
Rather, humility is a creaturely virtue and he's God. So we need to be again, in this appropriate separation of our state and who God is, recognizing that those are two very different things. All of this though, I think, contributes to moving us in a direction of understanding, well, what does this mean then?
For Jesus Christ, the God man, the one who humbled himself. You've probably been screaming the entire time. Will you get to that? What about that? And I think that is the critical question that is behind everything that we're reading about. In these parables. In other words, why is Jesus this way? What has brought him into this particular place to say these particular things to these people?
We talked last time about how one of the things that's remarkable is that all of these sinners, like the down out, the broken, the marginalized, the pariahs, they were all drawn to Jesus teaching, not even drawn. I mean, there's distinction not drawn to the Fara teaching, to the rules of the law, but drawn to Jesus, almost magnetically coming to him.
Compelled as it were, to be in his presence, to hear the things he was saying. Captivate, I mean, can you imagine yourself there? Not necessarily there in that environment, but captivated again by the teachings of Jesus, how good they are, how true they are, how incredible they are. And so I think it's possible for us to marvel then at that remarkable word then from the impossible, Paul, when he says that Christ humbled himself in Philippians two, eight.
And no, I think that that confirms our definition above of humanity, uh, of. Humility rather as being something in humanity, of being a, a creaturely virtue in that the eternal son first became a man. That's what Paul says in verse seven, and then humbled himself in verse eight. And I'm gonna submit to you that this is really the one of the most epic parts of the gospel that.
This is the only way we can get this kind of humility, this humbling of God is if first he comes to undertake the creaturely virtue so that then he himself or become rather, lemme say it this way, I'm getting too excited, loved ones. It's rather that we first must have God become a creature, so to speak, not emptying himself as we'll.
Talk about. Of, of his godness, but instead taking on this flesh so that he might humble himself be to be like his children who must be humbled and in fact will ultimately be humbled in the ES eschaton no matter what they believe. And so the verb Paul uses to capture the action of the incarnation is, is not humbled here first, but it's this idea of emptied.
So again, Philippians two is verse six and seven. Paul writes, being in the form of God, Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant and being born in the likeness of man. And so this movement.
[00:18:59] Jesse Schwamb: From heaven to earth, which if you're listening to this in more or less real or New York time, as we're coming into the season of the calendar where we celebrate the incarnation, again, I've been thinking so much about this beautiful gift of the incarnation, and I've been thinking about that in light of Jesus coming to seek and to save the lost and this real heart to hearts kind of way where he's speaking the truth to the people who need to hear it most, and they're drawn magnetically to him, into his teaching.
And so that movement. From Heaven to earth is an emptying. It's the divine son emptying himself, not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world.
I think a lot, honestly, especially this time of year, I think a lot about strange things like Jesus has fingernails and blood vessels and eyeballs and hair and toes. And shins and knee bones, you know, all of these things. Because to me it's this incomprehensible reality that God loves me so much that he would send his only son to be a creature, but in a way that was limited to the same creatureliness that I have.
And then would forever, in a way, in his glorified state, identify still with that creature. And only in that process could he come and humble himself. I mean, that's incredible. I mean. Could not have grasped like the divine privilege of not being subjected to the rules and realities of creation. But instead, he empties himself by taking our humanity.
He was emptying not by subtraction of identity, but by addition of humanity. This is the taking, the taking on, and this allows him then to become obedient and in that obedience, that passive and act of obedience. What we find is that Christ is able to say these very things that are exemplified in the parables, that this is the height of God, and he says, it is in your midst.
The kingdom of God is here and I am the kingdom, and it's all because he has come in such a way. To empty himself again, where that was not a subtraction of divinity, but addition of humanity. It is an amazing and glorious truth. It's the thing upon which like turns all of salvation and all of the world that God would do this and do it so completely that again, it's finalized, it's complete, it's already done.
So first, Jesus became a man. And then as a man came the ly virtue, he humbled himself. And Paul confirms what we learned about humility. In the negative example, I think in Pharaoh of Pharaoh in Nexus 10 and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
[00:21:49] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so.
Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people.
And those two things come together and coalesce in the gospel because we know that righteousness and holiness is completely vouched, safe to God. It's under his purview and his control, and it comes to his people when he draws close. That's how it was in the Old Testament, and that's how it was in the New Testament.
And so as Christ in human form is coming and drawing near to his people, he's preaching this good news message that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood will have salvation and eternal life in him So intimately wrapped up that again, he hasn't just come. In the Christmas season to make naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him, and therefore, because he's the indestructible life, your life and mine cannot be destroyed either.
I. So it is this amazing mark of the fullness of humanity and identification with us that he didn't just come on special terms. You know, I often think it's not like God on a deck chair laid out looking down as a creation separate as he were, as it were, just observing and kind of more or less interjecting here and there.
It wasn't Jesus coming at. Arms length, distance. It wasn't God snatching him up when the frustrations of our limits or the pains of our world fell him. He had the full human experience. He was all in fully human and body mind. Hearts will and surroundings. Fully human in our finitude and all of this frustrations that we share that are just part of our lives, fully human in.
Vulnerability to the worst of the civil world can work. Clearly that's manifested in his ign Ammonious death. Nor was he at the bottom spared the very essence of being human. He was accountable to God. Even there, that humility is incredible, that he himself learned, undertook, became obedient so that he would be accountable to God a father.
Hebrews five celebrates this. Exactly. I love this set of words. Although Jesus was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered and being made perfect. He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. And if he is our first brother, then the calling that we have is to do exactly the same, to come before him, to obey him and to see him as the one who is high and lift it up.
But that self humbling, that humiliation doesn't just stop with obedience. And that's why the apostle keeps going. It says to the point of death, how far did it take him? How far did he go? How far was he willing to go? Volitionally all the way. To the point of death. And Christ obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience.
It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else. You know, of course, even in the garden when he's praying and the disciples are with the in your shot and he asked that the cup might pass, we might reasonably ask what other option was there.
And so here even Christ says. Even to the point of death, forsaking all other things, real obedience endures in obedience, which is a really difficult thing. And so I'm grateful because my obedience is peace wise, it is part and parcel, it is weak, it is feeble. And instead we have Christ who is transferred all of his righteousness into our account.
And all of that righteousness is because of real obedience that he undertook, endured in obedience. And so Christ did not begin obedience and then surrender disobedience once the greatest threats loomed even in the garden. There he again. He is coming before the father and he is continuing to obey. He's humbled.
So I think God does indeed command our humility and one of the ways that he can command that it, well, there's many ways. First and foremost, by fiat, he's God and his character demands it. The second way is that, again, coming back to these parables. Finally, and lastly, we see that Christ is exhibiting great humility in the message that he's bringing forward and all of this, that he comes forward to save and all of the seeking that he undertakes, he conspires with God in humility to bring his children.
Into the fold. There was no other way without this incredible humility of Christ, this humility that shows us that it's not denigrating of humanity, but it's God's image shining in its fullness. That this is the very thing he comes to restore and to humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather it is.
Pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity to humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made. And Christ exemplifies that very thing. And I submit to you loved ones. It's that very humility. This is what I buried the lead on last week.
It's that very humility that draws the sinner. Because we all have a master. We are all slaves to something, which I know is really unpopular to say, but hear me out. We are all stuck on something. We are all bound into something. It's just like we say with worship, it's not whether we not, we choose to worship.
It's what we worship and we are what we worship. All those things are true. All those cliches stand and if they're true, then the opposite is true and that is that we're all bound to something. The question is how good and kind is your master. The thing in which you are bound to the thing which you choose to serve and submit to how life giving is that thing.
And the humility of Christ clarifies that not all of our hum lings are owning to our own sin that Christ had. None, none. Yet he humbled himself. Sometimes repentance is the first step in self humbling. Other times it's not. Our self humbling may often come in response to our exposure to sin, but even in Christ sinless as he was.
He heeded the father's call to humble himself. And so I think for us, as we think about what it means then to go and study these parables, we first even need to humble our understanding, our cognizance, our reasoning, our logic, that the scripture as given by God as his very word to us, stand so far above us.
That while we study it and we interrogate it, that we dare not stand in opposition to it because it is the high and lofty command of God for us because he's good and his love endures forever. So I hope that as we continue to build into this next step of looking at this final lost parable, that we can all continue to just appreciate and boast in the God man who in his humility, makes the gospel possible, and that in his humility shows.
A greater sense of what it means to have the abundant life. And we have to take Jesus at his word, loved ones when he says like He's come, not just to give life, but to give it in abundance that that is a real quantity, and that the humility of Christ in his life and death and resurrection testifies to one of God's clearest and most memorable promises in all of scripture.
That again, he humbles the proud and he exalts the humble. So it was with Christ. He humbled himself and God has highly exalted him. I remember reading John Owen writing about. Justification and Christ's time of suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and his preparation for the cross and inevitably his, his forsaking, his forsakenness on that cross and how Jesus himself entrusted his justification to God the Father, which I think is a.
A, a conception that will make your mind do a somersault. I mean, think about it long enough that even Jesus himself in learning obedience and taking upon himself the full measure of what it was to sit under the law and then to obey it perfectly, was still going to his death, knowing that he was gonna be the greatest sinner who ever lived yet was gonna be the one without sin, having committed any, that he himself was entrusting all of that he had accomplished and who he was.
To God the father, to justify him and his resurrection on the third day loved ones is proof positive that he is the savior. That we all long for that in our sickness right now, as in our world, as all these things groan, as they all say, in some way, maratha, Lord, come quickly, that we are acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the one.
Who in his complete humility satisfied the law of God to such degree that he was justified before God the father, and raised TriNet on the third day as proof positive that he is in fact the Savior, the chosen one, the Messiah, the first brother, the firstborn among the dead, the serpent crusher. The one who will come and redeem all of his people.
So I hope there's something in there for you that's an encouragement that lifts up as if they were even possible to do more than they already are. That lifts up these parables that we've been talking about, that it's not just, of course, that Jesus on this mission because. He's full of love. His love predated all of this.
Now, this is why we keep coming back to, uh, all Christians at all times, in all heirs. John three 16, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. Now whosoever should believe in him. Now, all the believing ones should have eternal life, and that eternal life is purchased by the blood of Christ and through his humility, but also it is a, a stark reminder that love always leads to giving.
And here we have God the father, giving his son Unreservedly for us, becoming Creature Lee, so that he might undertake the humility of the creature. And in so doing fully, not just, I would say identify with who we are, but become like us in every a. Way yet without sin, which is why can we rejoice that even now in the sound of my voice or yours, wherever you are, there is Jesus Christ in Heavenly Rumble.
Before the God the Father interceding perfectly as this incredible representative, as the scriptures are, he says, as this best of all, the high priests, the perfect one. Who is ushering us in to bend the ear, as it were of God because of what he's accomplished on our behalf. Man, that is good news. And if it's not good news and you don't think it is, you better check your pulse.
Check it right now.
[00:33:20] Jesse Schwamb: So you need to come back. And listen to the next episode because we are, I mean, I think assuming everybody's healthy, Lord willing, we're gonna talk about the Prodigal Son and really wrap up this culmination of the lost parables. But of course, you know that I'm contractually obligated to say to you all.
That you don't have to just wait to interact until the next podcast. You can come hang out with us, and I gotta say it again for all the people in the back. The way that you do that is this little app called Telegram. You might be using Telegram already to message with your friends and your family. If so, you might not have known that.
There's also a little group within Telegram for the Reform Brotherhood. Everybody who listens, everybody wants to hang out and talk about theology or life share prayer requests. It's all happening right there, and I promise you, you will not be disappointed if you come check it out. So you're probably saying enough already.
Tell me how to do that. Alright, here's what you do. Get a piece of paper, stop the car, put down the backhoe for a second, and listen up. You go to your favorite browser and you type in t me slash reform brotherhood. T. Me Reform Brotherhood. Come hang out with us. Come talk about the episode, and until then, everybody stay.
Well keep your head down. Don't list sick sickness night people. But remember, even if it does, you have this great high priest who endured obedience, in obedience to bring you abundant life, to identify with you, to resonate with you, to give you the love of God, and to finally conquer sin, death, and the devil.
I say loved ones, so until next time, you know what to do. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.
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In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological underpinnings of Jesus' parables in Luke 15. With co-host Tony Arsenal absent due to illness, Jesse takes listeners through the "deleted scenes" – insights and reflections that often occur off-mic – about the parables of the Lost Sheep and Lost Coin. These stories reveal God's relentless pursuit of sinners and set the stage for the upcoming discussion of the Prodigal Son parable. Jesse unpacks how these parables demonstrate not just God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active seeking of them – a grace that doesn't merely find us willing but makes us willing. This episode serves as a theological bridge, slowing listeners down to fully appreciate the scandal of God's love before diving into Jesus' most famous parable.
The religious establishment of Jesus' day operated on the principle that religion was for "good people" – those who could maintain moral standards and ritual purity. When tax collectors and sinners were drawn to Jesus, the Pharisees were scandalized not just by Jesus' association with them, but by the possibility that these "hopeless cases" might be included in God's kingdom. This context sets up the revolutionary nature of Jesus' parables.
As Jesse explains, "Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help pariahs in that way, and so it did no good then to command the good people to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities." What makes Christianity utterly unique is that it begins not with human initiative but with divine pursuit. God in Christ actively seeks those who are lost, not waiting for them to clean themselves up or take the first step. This complete reversal of religious expectations demonstrates why these parables were and remain so radical.
The Reformed theological principle that Jesse highlights through Thomas Watson's quote – "Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing" – strikes at the heart of human pride and misconception about salvation. Left to ourselves, we don't merely lack the ability to come to God; we actively resist Him.
Jesse elaborates: "How good of God that He would send His Son unto us while we were yet His enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against Him." The wonder of grace is not just that God forgives when we repent, but that He creates the very repentance within us. This is why the shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to find the one – the sheep doesn't find its own way home. This is the beating heart of Reformed soteriology: salvation is entirely of the Lord, from first to last, which makes it secure and gives all glory to God alone.
"God seeking us is the foundation of seeking Him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes us willing. That is the Reformed theology."
"He's not this like sinless Superman. What I mean by that is... it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us. But the beauty of these parables is... Christ puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save is brought into our lives."
"Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How good is that sentence?"
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: It reminds me of this quote from. Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes.
Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him.
Welcome to episode 473 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for Lost Sheep and Lost Coins. Hey, brothers and sisters, you're listening to another episode of The Reformed Brotherhoodhood, but you've probably already noticed. That we are missing my co-host and my brother Tony, who regrettably was taken up ill this week, and so in his convalescence, I'm coming at you with a solo episode and what are you probably asking is worth listening to in the solo episode?
Well, I have a proposal for you. So often what happens is when Tony and I sit down. And we record a beautiful, robust conversation, the definitive kind of talk on some topic. We shut off the microphone. And then of course he and I continue to talk to one another. And what often happens is somehow, like a second or a third episode basically starts because we go back to what we were talking about before and we have some kind of new insight or something new that we wanted to say that didn't make it into the episode.
[00:01:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so this episode is gonna be about some of those deleted scenes if you were, were like the things that. We talked about, but didn't make it into some of our recent conversations about the parables, these three parables of the Lost Sheep, the lost coin, and now The Lost Son. Now I know what you're thinking, and I made a promise to Tony.
We're not gonna get to the Prodigal son on this episode. That is something he and I are looking forward to discussing with one another and with you. So that will be next week. But on this little episode, I thought it was best to slow down just for a second and to give you, again, some of those things we've been talking about as we've been thinking about lostness, and to set that up as a precursor to wet your appetite just a little bit for this biggest of all of the parables, maybe the most well-known parable in the entire universe.
The parable of the prodigal son, which again, is coming for you, but not on this one. Don't even get me started. How dare you. Now, normally if this were a traditional episode, you would hear that ous segue from me that goes something like this. Hey Tony, are you affirming with or denying again, something on this episode?
And because it's just me, it'd be super weird to do something atenol with just myself.
[00:03:17] Jesse Schwamb: I figured it is high time for me to give you a particular affirmation, so here's what I'm gonna do. I am affirming with you like you brother and sister listening. I truly am affirming with you because as the year draws to close, I was thinking just again, how grateful I am for everybody who hangs out, everybody who listens, everybody who gives to the reformed brotherhood, because we all do it together.
Nothing happens by accident. Nothing shows up in your podcast feed without somebody taking care of the attendant costs, without people lending their voices, without conversation around it. And if you're wondering, well, who are these other people? Because I thought it was just you too. There are brothers and sisters from all over the world who are looking to follow closely after Lord Jesus Christ, wanting to process theology and wanting to do so in a way that makes us better and more obedient toward our loving savior.
And in serving those around us. And the good news is you also can just connect with us and with them. And the best way to do that, as we've said so many times before, but I'm gonna say it one more time for everybody in the back, is you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just a messaging app, and we've carved out just a little corner of that app so that people that are listening to the podcast can come hang out and talk about.
Whatever you want. So the way to do that is go to any browser, pick your favorite one, and just type in t me slash reform brotherhood, t me slash reform brotherhood, and that link will get you there. You can also do another thing. You can go to reform brotherhood.com. The podcast does have a website, believe it or not, and on that website, reform brotherhood.com live, all of the other episodes we have ever recorded.
And so you can search those by topic about what's going on in them. You can find all kinds of different things to listen to. You'll also find a link there if in fact you would like to also support the podcast. So we are so grateful for so many brothers and sisters. Who have decided, you know what? I've been blessed by the conversations by the community, and I wanna make sure that it remains that way free of charge to everyone.
And they're the ones along with us that are shouldering that burden, and I'm so grateful. So you can find a link there if in fact you are so inclined to give so. Brothers and sisters, I'm affirming with you it's time that I did that, and I'm so grateful for all of you. And again, the purpose of this little episode is to spend a little bit of time getting ready, getting after it.
[00:05:42] Jesse Schwamb: For this, the biggest of all, the granddaddy of all the parables, the parable of the prodigal son and I, as I was thinking about this episode, it occurred to me it's a bit like, I don't know where you live. Where I live, there are these signs on the road that can script the speed at which you can travel on those roads at least legally.
Right, and I was thinking about this as I was driving the other day, that I have a road with a speed limit. Say it's 50 miles an hour, but there is a bend in this road. And on that bend as I approach it, there's another sign of a different color that's more suggestive and it's a lower speed limit. It's as if to say, listen, I know you can travel at 50, but what might be wise right now is to slow it down so that you don't veer off the road because.
As you take this turn, what's best practice, what's most safe for you is to slow down for a second. And I was kind of thinking about that as we were going into these parables. We wanna get to the parable of the prodigal sun. It's dramatic, it's dynamic. There's all kinds of lovely details in it. It's exciting.
We've got people now finally, whereas we had intimate objects in agriculture, now we're getting to human family dynamics and interrelations and all this activity. And it's good. We should wanna get there, but I'm kind of feeling like it's a bit like that sign that says, you know what? We might wanna slow down for a second before you turn into this parable.
Why don't you take this curve at a slightly slower speed? And so hence this little tiny episode to bring to you again, some of those deleted scenes. Some of the things that Tony, I've been talking about that never have quite made it into all of the recordings, because they probably happened before afterwards and the recording button had already been disabled.
So. Let me give you the thing that I think, Tony, I've been talking about a lot and we've definitely been thinking about, and that is again, going back to like, why did these parables even come up? Like was it Jesus volition just to start talking about this stuff? Why is it that there are three versions of it?
Why are they kind of escalating and growing in magnitude? There's clearly a crescendo coming. Hopefully you're hearing it. Like it's picking up, the pace is moving, the volume is increasing, and the stakes are getting higher and higher and higher. So what gives why all of this? And I think we gotta go back to Luke 15.
Of course. We gotta look at just that first verse because to me.
[00:08:00] Jesse Schwamb: In Luke 15, this is some of like the best comfort food of the gospel, don't you think? I mean, in this, it's like the warmest, richest passage, almost all the gospels in terms of the presentation of this really good news. And you know, these stories aren't just sentimental tales.
They actually reveal the beating heart of reform, theology, the beating, passionate love. And heart of Christ for his people. This truth that God is the one who seeks, saves, and rejoices over sinners. And so we gotta start in context because it's precisely because of that beating heart, that initiative, that volition, that Christ brings all of this up, but he brings it up in response to something that's happening.
And that's where we get in verse one. Now, the tax collectors and sinners we're all drawing near to him. I think sometimes we run, at least I do way too past. Fast past that verse, the tax collectors and the sinners we're all drawing near to him. It should be the kind of thing like talk about things that make you go, Hmm, why?
Why are we getting that now? That specific indicator here that they're drawing near. And then not only that it's being told to us, but of course what was it about Christ that drew these people? Because traditionally there, there was a lot of religion happening in Jesus' day. In some ways something special and different is happening here, that while the religion was not drawing these people, that the, the superstructures there, the participants, the leaders were not drawing this crowd by design.
Instead, they're drawn to Jesus. There's something not just in the teaching but who he is, and Luke tells us tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to him. He goes on to say, and the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them. As a result of this, Jesus tells then these three parables.
It's almost like Jesus essentially saying to the Pharisees, listen, you're accusing me of receiving sinners. Yes, you are exactly right, but I want you to know why. What a beautiful thing for him to explain and then to explain it in these thrice kind of implications and stories and metaphors. It's a beautiful thing.
It reminds me of this quote from. Period in Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes.
Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him.
And it's an incredible thing. It's far better, not that grace finds us willing, but that grace makes us willing, that grace compels us because we do not even know what's the best for ourselves. And so here again, Jesus tells us these three parables, these three stories to convey this incredible point. And that is that there is surely hope for all.
God's love extends even to these sinners. That the glorious truth, that glorious truth shines out in all of these parables, and it's meant to be impressed upon us in like increasing degree that God's amazing love is both in its scope and its reach, and especially contrast. The ideas of then these.
Pharisees and the scribes on this subject, he comes at them hard with these series of events and these stories. Tony, I've been talking about that a lot. Like we just can't get beyond that. I can't even, I wish I could comprehend it in a more deep way. You know, the first two parables are, it's dying to impress upon us that the love of God.
Is this activity. It is effort and fire and reach and going after and passion and love, and it seeks out the sinner and it takes like infinite trouble in order to find him and rescue him. It's willing to pursue all to love, all, to take up the cost of all, and then to show the joy of God and all the hosts of heaven when even just one.
Soul is saved. So it's not even this massive effort undertaking, which weighs the benefits and the costs and says, well, it's gonna be worth it in the end because the dividends earned from making this investment will be far greater than the investment itself. And what God does in Christ is he sends his son not.
Reservedly, not like arms reach, so he could snatch him back up when harm beel him, but he gives him so unreservedly in passive and active obedience so that the sinner might be saved. Even just one and one, just one is saved. All of heaven rejoices there. There is a full consummate expression of happiness and completeness and joy of just one.
Being saved and brought into God's kingdom. In other words, if that entire cost were for just one, God would still be willing to bear it. Jesus would still come in his active and past obedience to accomplish that very thing. And it's all of this that's moving us, of course, to the parable of the prodigal son, but I cannot even get there.
Don't, don't even try to get me to go there. I know you're all doing it. So there is this great and incredible outstanding point.
[00:13:20] Jesse Schwamb: It's something else that Tony had been talking about is that there's a simplicity, of course in all of these accounts, but there's also like this great complexity, especially because of this context.
And I think as well what we've been really. Settling on in our conversations outside of the podcast is just how scandalous this makes Jesus seem and appear like that Jesus does appear or he should appear to us like too good to be true, too loving, too kind, too recklessly spend thrift. And again, that's what we're gonna find in the next parable, but that that is for real and it doesn't make him weak.
It might be an expression of meekness, a power under control, but it shows that the humility of God in Christ is really beyond our ability to comprehend in reach that is so thorough and so full, and so rich and so warm that Christ is, as it were, experiencing a great, great joy. In the sinner coming and being saved, and him identifying with the sinner to such a degree and going out and finding what was lost to bring it back in.
That this act of even when we come to him in repentance over and over again, we do not exhaust him because so great is his love for us. That he's coming to save continually and always, that he doesn't have to save over and over again. There's no additional sacrifice that's necessary, but that, that sacrifice is so great, so grand, so complete that it continues to bring us back into the fold to save us as it were.
Over and over again to restore us onto fellowship with him to restore the harmony of our relationship while never having to rescind or to rebuild again the initial identity that we have in Christ that was accomplished on the cross, but that this just seems too good to be true. It just seems so miraculous that my own sin.
As it continues to compound day after day, that is like continue to do the things I don't wanna do, as Paul said. But the very things I don't wanna do, those are the things that I do. It seems like this. At some point God would just become thoroughly exhausted with, and that's not the case. And these parables prove that to us over and over.
And over again. So this very context and setting of these parables shows. I think all of this like perfectly, and Tony and I have just been conversing about that a lot. We keep going back to it. Maybe we're a little bit afraid that if we keep talking about it, you're gonna be like, you already said that, say something different.
But we can't help. We're really come back to this and. Again, I'm drawn to this line that these sinners, the publicans, if you're totally down with the King James version that they drew near unto him, they came to him. There was something about him that they were almost like compelled or constrained as, as Paul says, like God's love compels us or constraints us.
That they themselves were feeling that almost this magnetism toward Christ to want to be in his presence toward what, hear what he has to say, and what a beautiful setup that they're being drawn into him. He's eating with them. He's doing this. Most intimate thing, spending time with the me, my shoulders, with 'em, and of course the Pharisees, the scribes, the religious leaders, they see this and it's recorded that they're grumbling.
They're complaining, right, man, what an adventure in missing the point. But that's there for us. I really think to pick up here as we try to understand what these parables mean, again, it's not just like the teaching. The teaching is so good, it's so rich and juicy and, and full of so many things for us to consume and to understand and to meditate on and to metabolize.
As well that we can just quickly mix Miss, like this incredible perspective of like the context of which it took place, like the literal environment and the circumstances of life, which in some ways were the progenitor, or at least were the very thing, the fertile soil, which gave Christ the opportunity to plant.
Then these seeds of the story and what I'm raised by is they felt that. I think these sinners felt that there was a chance even for them, that like in these man's teachings, there was a new and fresh hope, and even the Pharisees and the scribes saw precisely that thing. I think that's why, that's why they're complaining, and they had regarded these sinners as being so utterly and entirely behind, beyond hope and redemption.
I mean, that was really the Orthodox view. It was to say like, listen, they're so hopeless that they were to be entirely ignored. Religion was for good people. It had nothing to do with bad people. You know, unfortunately, that's so much I think of how people view even Christianity today, that this is a club for people who have it mostly together or wanna have it together or think that they can get it together.
Religion is for the good people and it should have nothing to do with the bad people. And it certainly had nothing to. To give these sinners just in the in, in our own day. Religion, by and in of itself, has nothing to give anybody, certainly nothing to give those who are hurt. Who are feeling hopeless, who are down and out, who are the abused, who have been written off, who are marginalized, who are pariahs, who feel that the guilt is overwhelming in their lives, who have all of these regrets.
Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help you oriah in that way, and so it did no good then. To command the good people, to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities. Religion, even in Jesus day, didn't offer that. And so you can see then that the Pharisees of the scribes were annoyed by our Lord's teaching.
Anyone who saw any hope for this public or sinner must to them be entirely wrong and a blasphemer, because that's not who religion was for. And yet the sinner here. I mean, can you only imagine loved one like the sinner here in seeing Jesus? And being with Jesus, and they were drawn to him by understanding that there was some kind of new and fresh hope for them.
And that's what's delivered in these parables to us. That how scandalous love of God is, is that from the jump, those who are with him recognize the scandal and said, this is so otherworldly that it seems like. This could be for me. And that is exactly why Jesus came, right? He came to seek and to save those who are lost.
The point is was not how he could be received back, but whether he could be received back at all, whether he deserved anything at all. And so the sinner coming and saying that, is it possible that even for me. There is hope that even for me, there could be restoration with God. That for all the things which I already know, that I'm far from God, that I see him as the one who has these incredible and high in standards that I have transgressed, is it possible that there is hope for me?
You know, just this morning on our Lord's day, because that's time of year, one of the songs that we sang was Joy to the World, and I was thinking even as we were preparing to sing that what, what other people conceive of that? Him. You know, we might rightly ask, is there any joy in our world today? Is there any hope?
Is there any peace? And the answer is, yes, there is. It's in Jesus. You know that he is the answer. But we sometimes need to start saying, what is the question? And the question is, who can come before God? What can I do to be saved? That is the question. And these sinners at least understood that. They're drawn to Jesus, they're drawn to come before him.
And so this stands out to me. It's something that we've been talking about a lot, this possibility of a new start, a new beginning for all, even for the most desperate, the ones that were so far off that they recognized that they couldn't probably even turn around. You know, sometimes like we colloquial say, listen, all you have to do is turn around and we use that language because we're tying it with this idea of repentance, you know, to turn.
Toward God to to forsake that which is our natural selves by the power of the Holy Spirit and to come back into the family of Christ. And I think that is good, but I think the sinner also recognizes that the only prayer that we have is that Jesus have mercy on me. Have mercy on me that that's the right place to start.
And I see in this, this idea, of course that's clearly articulated by our savior, that God is doing all the things that we are so lost. We're like that lost sheep that's just gone astray. That we desperately need help because we can't find our way back. I'm not sure we can even barely turn around. And I think if.
What Thomas Watson is saying is correct. Then the beauty of Grace is that it does make us willing because I, for one, would go kicking and screaming all the way. But the fact that it makes us willing, it makes us come to our senses, which I have a feeling is something we will explore in a future, future episode, but that God is setting forward all of that initiative, you know.
I like that John Rowan, John Owen also writes the sheep strays and knows not how to return, but Christ the good shepherd will lose none of his flock, but fetch them home. I love this idea. That's from his expedition on Hebrews. Actually, it's not even about this particular passage. The sheep does not seek the shepherd.
The shepherd seeks the sheep. So even in this narrative, we see all these beautiful elements that. You know, Tony, I talked about before this total depravity, but it's just a narrative form that there's no one that seeks after God. And so what we find is that God is bringing forward election, choosing his own.
He's bringing about definitive atonement, he's saving his own, and then there's a sexual calling he's bringing to himself his own. It's like the Westminster Larry Catechism says in. Uh, 59 Christ, by his intercession answers the demands of those for whom he has died and for them only. And all of this then brings about this like great and incredible rejoicing in heaven.
I think, not just because it's like, it's great to find lost things, but it's also great to see that God has done the very thing that he said he was going to do, that he's the one that's, that he's the author and perfecter of salvation. And so God delights. In the work of redemption. So this is like the thing that I think is incredibly scandalous.
[00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: This is the thing that Tony and I have talked a lot about, like privately, and that is how much Jesus has compassion and the ability, the true ability to sympathize. And that in these I, I think like underneath. All of these little parables and stories. The only reason there is an action of love. That love always leads to giving.
Love always leads to going. Finding love always leads to drawing in that the only reason that is happening is because of this incredible ability of Christ to sympathize with us. You know, the burden of these verses, the anchor of these verses is Christ sheer an amazing solidarity with all of his people.
All our natural intuitions tell us that Jesus is with us on our side present helping. When life is going well. It's easy to see that. It seems very clear, but in this text, we're finding that those who are drawn are the ones whose life are decidedly not going great, not doing that well. And so the opposite is being.
Presented for us in this kinda stark relief. It's in our weakness that Jesus sympathizes with us. It's in our pain and our own destructive behaviors that he comes, not because he himself has experienced any sin, but because he is a savior whose heart is wide open to go after and to embrace those who are in that state, which seems incredible.
Scandalous, like in our pain, Jesus is pained in our suffering. He feels the suffering as his own, even though it isn't. He's not this like invincible divinity. Well, lemme say it this way. It's not that his invincible divinity is threatened, but in the sense that his heart is feelingly drawn into our distress.
Is that a word? Feelingly, like that. He literally wants to, he feels himself into our distress and, and in that doing so his joy is increased because he's identifying with his children because he is coming close to them because he is going after them. His love leads to that kind of feeling ness, so it's.
It is not only that Jesus can reveal, relieve us and reveal, I suppose, but relieve us from our troubles like a doctor prescribing medicine. It's also that before any relief comes before, like a day of restoration comes before like that day of the shackles falling off before that time when the breakthrough happens, he's with us in our troubles like a doctor who has endured the same disease.
That's what's wild. That's what makes all of this so different than any other religious worldview, than any other kind of conscription of how to think about the world and any other philosophy. And he's a sinless man, but he's not this like sinless Superman. And what I mean by that is I think some of you heard, if you've listened for any length of time, you know that there's this song.
That is a children's song. That is something like Jesus is my superhero, and I always bristle that a little bit because it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us that we want all of this power. Of course we want this. Alien power to come and to restore our lives, to intercede, to do the thing that we cannot do for ourselves.
But the beauty of these parables is the thing that we cannot do for ourselves is still the thing that Christ puts, puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save. Is brought into our lives. He comes and saves us because he knows us.
And to know us is to become like us. And to become like us is to be humiliated, to come and to humble himself and to condescend to such degree that he is again, like this doctor who can heal. But before any of that comes, he's with us in the troubles. This is Emmanuel, this is God with us, that he is the one that comes and stands shoulder to shoulder with us in that pain that feels and empathizes and comes and ministers to us in that pain, and takes great joy in doing so.
And in fact, his joy, as it were, is enlarged in doing that.
[00:27:09] Jesse Schwamb: Our tendency, I think, is to feel intuitively that the more difficult life gets, the more that we're alone. We sink further into pain, we sink further into felt isolation, and these passages correct us. Our pain never outstrips what he himself shares in.
That is what's remarkable. That is what drives and fuels, I think, in a way, this passionate heart of Christ towards us and then results in this kind of unbelievable, really loved ones. Incredible, outstanding, inconceivable good news that Christ has saved us, that he would come and in the midst of our great ugliness and sinfulness and unkindness and selfishness, that he would not only identify with that and say, you who are broken, I delight.
To repair you, but that we receive then not just a restoration, but then all of the benefits that Christ himself has earned that are due him for his obedience. These also get credited to us. I think it's impossible for me not to conclude this little conversation that we're having without going to Colossians chapter two, which again, I've said this before, but as somebody who's worked in finance and banking, all of my adult life.
Actually, I dunno why I would say it that way, because you really can't, shouldn't be working in finance or banking as a child. But for all of my life I just find this language so resonant. And if you're a person that's borrowed money for any length of time or maybe basically just worked in the world and had to endure, if that's your word, or interact with finance than you are probably gonna resonate with this.
This too. But this is. An expression of what God has done for us in Christ. And I wanna begin reading in verse 13. And you being dead in your transgressions. Oh, man. Uh, sorry, I, I hate to do this. I often don't like to do this, but you're just gonna get my commentary, the Jesse commentary in between these in, in the midst of these verses because I, I should probably best practice to read the whole thing for y'all.
But I just, I am dumbfounded. I keep getting dumbstruck by these words and thinking about these in light of, uh, the incarnation and of Christ coming and these parables that he's teaching us that are just showing like as if he's just opening up his heart to us, and I can't, but help but stop and pause and say, are, are you hearing this too?
And you being dead in your transgressions. This is so horrible, isn't it? Like who wants this to be true of them? But this is, this is my story and your story that we were dead and it's not a who done it mystery. You know what killed us? Our transgressions, yours and mines our own work. That the minimum wage of sin is death and that your transgressions killed you and that you were in that state.
You were in that state actually from the beginning, from the time that you were born. You were dead and you were dead in your transgressions. That is super bad. I mean, that's the understatement of this entire conversation. It, it's horrible. Uh, I can't think of anything worse. It's true of all us. So is it possible that it could get worse?
It does actually. And you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, that is like you were not just, it would be worse enough that of course, like you the Law of Christ, but you love to do it. That was your jam in your flesh. The flesh that you wanted to embrace, the selfishness that was who you are, apart from Christ, which the Bible tells us is the opposite of being circumcised brought into the family.
You were far away as far away as possible. You were so far out of the government that you were uncircumcised. That's who you were. You were dead. You were dead because of your transgressions, and then you were so far outside of the family of God, there was no hope for you. In your own self, there's nothing you could do to make a way.
There was nothing that you could do to write yourself. You were dead in your transgressions, uncircumcision of your flesh. Sit on that for a second, and you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, Jesus made you alive with him having graciously forgiven us all our transgressions.
So again, this is. Incredible. Not just that you would be forgiven, but that you'd be made alive in Christ. There's this falsity out there somewhere. Again, this is what religion teaches you, teaches us that Jesus came to make bad people good. I mean, that's really what the Pharisees were after in their own lives.
There was their promulgating a system in which what religion does is it's for good people and at best what it can do is make maybe some bad people. Good. But if you're too bad, it's not for you. It's too bad. It's unfortunate, but it's not your thing. It won't work. But what the scripture tells us, what these parables press us with is not that Jesus came to make bad people good, but he came to make dead people alive.
And so what we have here is a clear indication of that, that even in the midst of your, your horrible state, that that state, that it seemed hopeless, that here Jesus God, through Jesus made you alive with him having graciously forgiven all of our transgressions. Then here's the, here's the amazing part as if like, we didn't understand that, and I think like you and Paul here saying like, this should be clear, but I'm gonna double down on this.
I'm gonna use some language that should be abundantly clear to you just how bad things were and then how much freedom you should feel, what your lightness, what the, the bounce in your steps should be like because you were once dead uncircumcised. Now you've been made alive and you've been having everything graciously forgiven in Christ.
Here, here's what it's like having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How? How good is that sentence? Christ in his death canceled out the. Certificate of debt. Again, something that was codified against us.
So other words, it was documented. These were not just, and they weren't just this little statement that said like, it's really bad for you. You owe something. There's something that's been heaped up against you. But they were decrees against us. They were hostile to us. They were literally the thing that was going to kill us for all and separate us from Christ.
That thing, that certificate, he has taken it. Out out of the way, having nailed it to the cross, having disarmed the rulers and authorities, he made public display of them having triumphed over them. So it's this incredible sense that not only has Christ. Taking the certificate, cast it aside, paid for it in full.
But then above and beyond that, he's disarmed the rulers and authorities. He's made a public display of them. He's triumphed over sin, death, and the devil in such a demonstrative and public way to show that he's the ruler of all the world. That he's the promise maker and he's the promise keeper, that he's just, and that he's justifier.
And so Paul says to us, then Christian. How ought you to live? How ought you to behave? Is this not the best news that you could possibly hear? So all of that, I think is literally just the smallest backdrop to leading us into this final parable, this escalation really, of course, the three parables in one about the prodigal son and.
I would admonish you to think on that. This little extra pause that we've had here I think is good because I need to at least to remember that this is what's leading us for Jesus to say, to start with a story that says A man had two sons. You know, after we've talked about sheep. We talked about coins and then he goes, and a man had two sons.
What a beautiful like beginning what? What incredible language, what brilliance, all of this to show us his true heart for us. And I think it's always worthwhile to stop and to pause for a second. And to consider that heart as we make ourselves ready to receive this final and amazing parable.
[00:35:13] Jesse Schwamb: So I hope that you will continue to hang out with us, that you yourself will not take my word for it or Tony's word for it, but you yourself, go to Luke 15 read.
It takes maybe. I dunno, 45 seconds to read all three of these and to spend some time thinking about what it is that Christ has done for us. That we're the lost sheep, we're the lost coin. We're also this lost son, son, daughter, that this was all of our stories. At some point, we can't escape the fact that this really is our biography and.
It hits close to home because we find that when we examine ourselves that we are the ones that were lost in our transgressions and dead. That we are the ones that were un circumcised, but God has made us alive together with Christ. I mean, read, read Colossians two and read Ephesians one, and what you're gonna find is we have every reason to rejoice, and these stories should compel us into.
A life of constant rejoicing for what Christ has done for us. That's the reason for every season. It's the reason for the Christian life, and certainly so much of what we find reflected in reform theology proper. So you know what to do. Come hang out with us on the Telegram chat, continue to process with us alongside of us in conversation with us, these incredible parables, because I do believe there's so much here.
We'll, we're never going to plumb the depths of these, and this is just our feeble attempt. To get us in the right place as we make that final hair point turn into this, that we slow down just a little bit and consider what great thing that Christ has done for us and what God, the Father and the Holy Spirit has wrought in our lives by way of this incredible salvation.
So you know what to do. Come back next week and we'll get after the parable. Of the prodigal. But until you do that, until we chat again and Tony rejoins us safe and strong, and Lord willing, as great as ever, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.
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In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the Parable of the Lost Coin from Luke 15:8-10. They explore how this parable reveals God's passionate pursuit of His elect and the divine joy that erupts when they are found. Building on their previous discussion of the Lost Sheep, the brothers examine how Jesus uses this second parable to further emphasize God's sovereign grace in salvation. The conversation highlights the theological implications of God's ownership of His people even before their redemption, the diligent efforts He undertakes to find them, and the heavenly celebration that follows. This episode offers profound insights into God's relentless love and the true nature of divine joy in redemption.
The Parable of the Lost Coin reveals a profound theological truth about God's relationship to His elect. As Tony and Jesse discuss, this isn't a story about finding something new, but recovering something that already belongs to the owner. The woman in the parable doesn't rejoice because she discovered unexpected treasure; she rejoices because she recovered what was already hers. This illustrates the Reformed understanding that God's people have eternally belonged to Him. While justification occurs in time, there's a real sense in which God has been considering us as His people in eternity past. The parable therefore supports the doctrines of election and particular redemption - God is not creating conditions people can move into or out of, but is zealously reclaiming a specific people who are already His in His eternal decree. The searching, sweeping, and diligent pursuit represent not a general call, but an effectual calling that accomplishes its purpose.
One of the most striking aspects of this parable is the overwhelming joy that accompanies finding the lost coin. The brothers highlight that this joy isn't reluctant or begrudging, but enthusiastic and overflowing. The woman calls her friends and neighbors to celebrate with her - a seemingly excessive response to finding a coin, unless we understand the theological significance. This reveals that God takes genuine delight in the redemption of sinners, to the extent that Jesus describes it as causing joy "in the presence of the angels of God." As Jesse and Tony note, this challenges our perception that God might save us begrudgingly. Instead, the parable teaches us that God's "alien work" is wrath, while His delight is in mercy. This should profoundly impact how believers view their own salvation and should inspire a contagious joy that spreads to others - a joy that many Christians, by Tony's own admission, need to recover in their daily walk.
"Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love." - Jesse Schwamb
"The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace... The reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased, is because God has this real pleasure to pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire." - Jesse Schwamb
"These parables are calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently?" - Tony Arsenal
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found.
The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire.
Welcome to episode 472 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:57] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.
[00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.
[00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: So there was this time, maybe actually more than one time, but at least this one time that we've been looking at where Jesus is hanging out and the religious incumbents, the Pharisees, they come to him and they say, you are a friend of sinners, and.
Instead of taking offense to this, Jesus turns this all around. Uses this as a label, appropriates it for himself and his glorious character. And we know this because he gives us this thrice repeated sense of what it means to see his heart, his volition, his passion, his love, his going after his people, and he does it.
Three little parables and we looked at one last time and we're coming up to round two of the same and similar, but also different and interesting. And so today we're looking at the parable of the lost coin or the Lost dma, or I suppose, whatever kind of currency you wanna insert in there. But once again, something's lost and we're gonna see how our savior comes to find it by way of explaining it.
In metaphor. So there's more things that are lost and more things to be found on this episode. That's how we do it. It's true. It's true. So that's how Jesus does it. So
[00:02:12] Tony Arsenal: yeah. So it should be how we do it.
[00:02:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I cut to like Montel Jordan now is the only thing going through my head. Tell Jordan.
Yeah. Isn't he the one that's like, this is how we do it, that song, this is
[00:02:28] Tony Arsenal: how we do it. I, I don't know who sings it. Apparently it's me right now. That was actually really good. That was fantastic.
[00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Hopefully never auto tuned. Not even once. I'm sure that'll make an appearance now and the rest, somebody
[00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: should take that and auto tune it for me.
[00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: That would be fantastic. Listen, it doesn't need it. That was perfect. That was right off the cuff, right off the top. It was beautiful. It was ous.
[00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes.
[00:02:51] Jesse Schwamb: I'm hoping that appearance,
[00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: before we jump into our, our favorite segment here in affirmations of Denials, I just wanted to take a second to, uh, thank all of our listeners.
Uh, we have the best listeners in the world. That's true, and we've also got a really great place to get together and chat about things. That's also true. Uh, we have a little telegram chat, which is just a little chat, um, program that run on your phone or in a browser. Really any device you have, you can go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood and join that, uh, little chat group.
And there's lots of stuff going on there. We don't need to get into all the details, but it's a friendly little place. Lots of good people, lots of good conversation. And just lots of good digital fellowship, if that's even a thing. I think it is. So please do join us there. It's a great place to discuss, uh, the episodes or what you're learning or what you'd like to learn.
There's all sorts of, uh, little nooks and crannies and things to do in there.
[00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: So if you're looking for a little df and you know that you are coming out, we won't get into details, but you definitely should. Take Tony's advice, please. You, you will not be disappointed. It, it's a fun, fun time together. True.
Just like you're about to have with us chatting it up and going through a little affirmations and denials. So, as usual, Tony, what are you, are you affirming with something or are you denying again, something? I'm, I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm ready.
[00:04:06] Tony Arsenal: Okay. Uh, it is, I thought that was going somewhere else.
Uh, I'm, I'm affirming something.
[00:04:13] Tony Arsenal: People are gonna get so sick of me doing like AI affirmations, but I, it's like I learned a new thing to do with AI every couple of weeks. I ran across an article the other day, uh, that I don't remember where the article was. I didn't save it, but I did read it. And one of the things that pointed out is that a lot of times you're not getting the most out of AI because you don't really know how to ask the questions.
True. One of the things it was was getting through is a lot of people will ask, they'll have a problem that they're encountering and they'll just ask AI like, how do I fix this problem? And a lot of times what that yields is like very superficial, basic, uh, generic advice or generic kind of, uh, directions for resolving a problem.
And the, I don't remember the exact phrasing, 'cause it was a little while ago since I read it, but it basically said something like, I'm encountering X problem. And despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to resolve it. And by using sort of these extra phrases. What it does is it sort of like pushes the AI to ask you questions about what you've already tried to do, and so it's gonna tailor its advice or its directions to your specific situation a little bit more.
So, for example, I was doing this today. We, um, we just had the time change, right? Stupidest thing in the world doesn't make any sense and my kids don't understand that the time has changed and we're now like three or four weeks past the, the time change and their, their schedule still have not adjusted.
So my son Augie, who is uh, like three and three quarters, uh, I don't know how many months it is. When do you stop? I don't even know. When you stop counting in months. He's three and a quarter, three quarters. And he will regularly wake up between four 30 and five 30. And when we really, what we really want is for him to be sleeping, uh, from uh, until like six or six 30 at the latest.
So he's like a full hour, sometimes two hours ahead of time, which then he wakes up, it's a small house. He's noisy 'cause he's a three and a half year old. So he wakes up the baby. The baby wakes up. My wife, and then we're all awake and then we're cranky and it's miserable. So I, I put that little prompt into, um, into Google Gemini, which is right now is my, um, AI of choice, but works very similar.
If you use something like chat, GPT or CLO or whatever, you know, grok, whatever AI tool you have access to, put that little prompt in. You know, something like since the time change, my son has been waking up at four 30 in the morning, despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to, uh, adjust his schedule.
And so it started asking me questions like, how much light is in the room? What time does he go to bed? How much does he nap? And it, so it's, it's pulling from the internet. This is why I like Google Geminis. It's actually pulling from the internet to identify like common, common. Related issues. And so it starts to probe and ask questions.
And by the time it was done, what it came out with was like a step-by-step two week plan. Basically like, do this tonight, do this tomorrow morning. Um, and it was able to identify what it believes is the problem. We'll see if it actually is, but the beauty now is now that I've got a plan that I've got in this ai, I can start, you know, tomorrow morning I'm gonna try to do what it said and I can tell.
The ai, how things went, and it can now adjust the plan based on whether or not, you know, this worked or didn't work. So it's a good way to sort of, um, push an ai, uh, chat bot to probe your situation a little bit more. So you could do this really for anything, right. You could do something like I'm having, I'm having trouble losing weight despite all efforts to the contrary.
Um, can you help me identify what the, you know, root problem is? So think about different ways that you can use this. It's a pretty cool way to sort of like, push the, the AI to get a little deeper into the specifics without like a lot of extra heavy lifting. I'm sure there's probably other ways you could drive it to do this, but this was just one clever way that I, that this article pointed out to accomplish this.
[00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a great exercise to have AI optimize itself. Yeah. By you turning your prompts around and asking it to ask you a number of questions, sufficient number, until it can provide an optimize answer for you. So lots, almost every bot has some kind of, you can have it analyze your prompts essentially, but some like copilot actually have a prompt agent, which will help you construct the prompt in an optimal way.
Yeah, and that again, is kind of question and answer. So I'm with you. I will often turn it around and say. Here's my goal. Ask me sufficient number of questions so that you can provide the right insight to accomplish said goal. Or like you're saying, if you can create this like, massive conversation that keeps all this history.
So I, I've heard of people using this for their exercise or running plans. Famously, somebody a, a, um, journalist, the Wall Street Journal, use it, train for a marathon. You can almost have it do anything for you. Of course, you want to test all of that and interact with it reasonably and ably, right? At the same time, what it does best is respond to like natural language interaction.
And so by turning it around and basically saying, help me help you do the best job possible, providing the information, it's like the weirdest way of querying stuff because we're so used to providing explicit direction ourselves, right? So to turn it around, it's kind of a new experience, but it's super fun, really interesting, really effective.
[00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: And it because you are allowing, in a certain sense, you're sort of asking the AI to drive the conversation. This, this particular prompt, I know the article I read went into details about why this prompt is powerful and the reason this prompt is powerful is not because of anything the AI's doing necessarily, right.
It's because you're basically telling the AI. To find what you've missed. And so it's asking you questions. Like if I was to sit down and go like, all right, what are all the things that's wrong, that's causing my son to be awake? Like obviously I didn't figure it out on my own, so it's asking me what I've already tried and what it found out.
And then of course when it tells me what it is, it's like the most obvious thing when it figures out what it is. It's identifying something that I already haven't identified because I've told it. I've already tried everything I can think of, and so it's prompting me to try to figure out what it is that I haven't thought of.
So those are, like I said, there's lots of ways to sort of get the ais to do that exercise. Um, it's not, it's not just about prompt engineering, although that there's a lot of science now and a lot of like. Specifics on how you do prompt engineering, um, you know, like building a persona for the ai. Like there's all sorts of things you can do and you can add that, like, I could have said something like, um.
Uh, you are a pediatric sleep expert, right? And when you tell it that what it's gonna do is it's gonna start to use more technical language, it's gonna, it's gonna speak to you back as though it's a, and this, this is where AI can get a little bit dangerous and really downright scary in some instances.
But with that particular prompt, it's gonna start to speak back to you as though it was a clinician of some sort, diagnosing a medical situation, which again. That is definitely not something I would ever endorse. Like, don't let an AI be your doctor. That's just not, like WebMD was already scary enough when you were just telling you what your symptoms were and it was just cross checking it.
Um, but you could do something like, and I use these kinds of prompts for our show notes where I'm like, you're an expert at SEO, like at um, podcast show notes. Utilizing SEO search terms, like that's part of the prompt that I use when I use, um, in, in this case, I use notion to generate most of our show notes.
Um, it, it starts to change the way that it looks at things and the way that it, I, it responds to you based on different prompts. So I think it, it's a little bit scary, uh, AI. Can be a strange, strange place. And there's some, they're doing some research that is a little bit frightening. They did a study and actually, like, they, they basically like unlocked an AI and gave it access to a pretend company with emails and stuff and said that a particular employee was gonna shut out, was gonna delete the ai.
And the first thing it did was try to like blackmail the employee with like a risk, like a scandalous email. It had. Then after that they, they engineered a scenario where the AI actually had the ability to kill the employee. And despite like explicit instructions not to do anything illegal, it still tried to kill the employee.
So there's some scary things that are coming up if we're not, you know, if, if the science is not able to get that under control. But right now it's just a lot of fun. Like it's, we're, we're probably not at the point where it's dangerous yet and hopefully. Hopefully it won't get to that point, but we'll see.
We'll see. That got dark real fast, fast, fast. Jesse, you gotta get this. And that was an affirmation. I guess I'm affirming killer murder ais that are gonna kill us all, but uh, we're gonna have fun with it until they do at least.
[00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: Thanks for not making that deny against. 'cause I can only imagine the direction that one to taken.
[00:12:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. At least when the AI hears this, it's gonna know that I'm on its side, so, oh, for sure. I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords. So as do Iye.
[00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: But Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today to get me out of this pit here?
[00:13:09] Jesse Schwamb: So, lemme start with a question. Do you have a favorite Christmas hymn? And if so, what is it?
[00:13:16] Tony Arsenal: Ooh, that's a tough one. Um, I think I've always been really partial to Oh, holy Night. But, uh, there's, there's not anything that really jumps to mind my, as I've become older and crankier and more Scottish in spirit, I just, Christmas hymns just aren't as. If they're not as prominent in my mind, but oh, holy night or come coming, Emanuel is probably a really good one too.
[00:13:38] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. Those are the, those are like the top in the top three for me. Yeah. So I think
[00:13:42] Tony Arsenal: I know where you're going based on the question.
[00:13:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're very much the same. So, well maybe, so I am affirming with, but it's that time of year and people you, you know and love and maybe yourself, you're gonna listen to Christian music and.
That's okay. I put no shade on that, especially because we're talking about the incarnation, celebrate the incarnation. But of course, I think the best version of that is some of these really lovely hymns because they could be sung and worshiped through all year round. We just choose them because they fit in with the calendar particularly well here, and sometimes they're included, their lyrics included in Hallmark cards and, and your local.
Cool. Coles. So while that's happening, why not embrace it? But here's my information is why not go with some different versions. I love the hymn as you just said. Oh, come will come Emmanuel. And so I'm gonna give people three versions of it to listen to Now to make my list of this kind of repertoire. The song's gotta maintain that traditional melody.
I think to a strong degree, it's gotta be rich and deep and dark, especially Ko Emmanuel. But it's gotta have something in it that's a little bit nuanced. Different creative arrangements, musicality. So let me give two brand new ones that you may not have heard versions and one old one. So the old one is by, these are all Ko Emanuel.
So if at some point during this you're like, what song is he talking about? It's Ko. Emmanuel. It's just three times. Th we're keeping it th Rice tonight. So the first is by band called for today. That's gonna be a, a little bit harder if you want something that, uh, gets you kind of pumped up in the midst of this redemption.
That's gonna be the version. And then there are two brand new ones. One is by skillet, which is just been making music forever, but the piano melody they bring into this and they do a little something nuanced with the chorus that doesn't pull away too much. From the original, but just gives it a little extra like Tastiness.
Yeah. Skill. Great version. And then another one that just came out yesterday. My yesterday, not your yesterday. So actually it doesn't even matter at this point. It's already out is by descriptor. And this would be like the most chill version that is a hardcore band by, I would say tradition, but in this case, their version is very chill.
All of them I find are just deeply worshipful. Yeah. And these, the music is very full of impact, but of course the lyrics are glorious. I really love this, this crying out to God for the Savior. This. You know, just, it's really the, the plea that we should have now, which is, you know, maranatha like Lord Jesus, come.
And so in some ways we're, we're celebrating that initial plea and cry for redemption as it has been applied onto us by the Holy Spirit. And we're also saying, you know, come and fulfill your kingdom, Lord, come and bring the full promise, which is here, but not yet. So I like all three of these. So for today.
Skillet descriptor, which sounds like we're playing like a weird word game when you put those all together. It does, but they're all great bands and their versions I think are, are worthy. So the larger affirmation, I suppose, is like, go out this season and find different versions, like mix it up a little bit.
Because it's good to hear this music somewhat afresh, and so I think by coming to it with different versions of it, you'll get a little bit of that sense. It'll make maybe what is, maybe if it's felt rote or mundane or just trivial, like you're saying, kind of revive some of these pieces in our hearts so we can, we, we can really worship through them.
We're redeeming them even as they're meant to be expressions of the ultimate redemption.
[00:16:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, um, I heard the skillet version and, uh, you know, you know me like I'm not a huge fan of harder music. Yeah. But that, that song Slaps man, it's, yes,
[00:17:07] Jesse Schwamb: it does. It's
[00:17:07] Tony Arsenal: good. And Al I mean, it, it also ignited this weird firestorm of craziness online.
I don't know if you heard anything about this, but Yes, it was, it was, there was like the people who absolutely love it and will. Fight you if you don't. Yes. And then there was like the people who think it's straight from the devil because of somehow demonic rhythms, whatever that means. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm not a big fan of the heavier music, but there is something about that sort of, uh.
I don't know. Is skill, would that be considered like metal at all?
[00:17:38] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's a loaded question. Probably.
[00:17:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So like I found, uh, this is, we're gonna go down to Rabbit Trail here. Let's do it. Here we go. I found a version of Africa by Toto that was labeled as metal on YouTube. So I don't know whether it actually is, and this, this version of skill, it strikes me as very similar, where it's, ah, uh, it, it's like, um.
The harmonies are slightly different in terms of like how they resonate than Okay. Other harmonies. Like I get
[00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: that
[00:18:06] Tony Arsenal: there's a certain, you know, like when you think about like Western music, there's certain right, there's certain harmonies when, you know, think about like piano chords are framed and my understanding at least this could be way off, and I'm sure you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong, is that um, metal music, heavy metal music uses slightly different.
Chord formations that it almost leaves you feeling a little unresolved. Yes, but not quite unresolved. Like it's just, it's, it's more the harmonics are different, so that's fair. Skillet. This skillet song is so good, and I think you're right. It, it retains the sort of like. The same basic melody, the same, the same basic harmonies, actually.
Right. And it's, it's almost like the harmonies are just close enough to being put into a different key with the harmonies. Yes,
[00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: that's true
[00:18:53] Tony Arsenal: than then. Uh, but not quite actually going into another key. So like, sometimes you'll see online, you'll find YouTube videos where they play like pop songs, but they've changed the, the.
Chords a little bit. So now it's in a minor key. It's almost like it's there. It's like one more little note shift and it would be there. Um, and then there's some interesting, uh, like repetition and almost some like anal singing going on, that it's very good. Even if you don't like heavier music. Like, like I don't, um, go listen to it and I think you'll find yourself like hitting repeat a couple times.
It was very, very good.
[00:19:25] Jesse Schwamb: That's a good way of saying it. A lot of times that style is a little bit dissonant, if that's what you mean in the court. Yeah. Formation. So it gives you this unsettledness, this almost unresolvedness, and that's in there. Yeah. And just so everybody knows, actually, if you listen to that version from Skillet, you'll probably listen to most of it.
You'll get about two thirds of the way through it and probably be saying, what are those guys talking about? It's the breakdown. Where it amps up. But before that, I think anybody could listen to it and just enjoy it. It's a really beautiful, almost haunting piano melody. They bring into the intro in that, in the interlude.
It's very lovely. So it gives you that sense. Again, I love this kind of music because there's almost something, there is something in this song that's longing for something that is wanting and yet left, unresolved and unfulfilled until the savior comes. There's almost a lament in it, so to speak, especially with like the way it's orchestrated.
So I love that this hymn is like deep and rich in that way. It's, that's fine. Like if you want to sing deck the Holes, that's totally fine. This is just, I think, better and rich and deeper and more interesting because it does speak to this life of looking for and waiting for anticipating the advent of the savior.
So to get me get put back in that place by music, I think is like a net gain this time of year. It's good to have that perspective. I'm, I'm glad you've heard it. We should just open that debate up whether or not we come hang out in the telegram chat. We'll put it in that debate. Is skillet hardcore or metal?
We'll just leave it there 'cause I have my opinions, but I'm, well, I'm sure everybody else does.
[00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: I don't even know what those words mean, Jesse. Everything is hardcore in metal compared to what I normally listen to. I don't even listen to music anymore usually, so I, I mean, I'm like mostly all podcasts all the time.
Anytime I have time, I don't have a ton of time to listen to. Um, audio stuff, but
[00:21:06] Jesse Schwamb: that's totally fair. Well now everybody now join us though.
[00:21:08] Tony Arsenal: Educate me
[00:21:09] Jesse Schwamb: now. Everybody can properly use, IM prompt whatever AI of their choice, and they can listen to at least three different versions of al comical manual. And then they can tell us which one do you like the best?
Or maybe you have your own version. That's what she was saying. What's your favorite Christmas in?
[00:21:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And
[00:21:24] Jesse Schwamb: what version of it do you like? I mean, it'll be like.
[00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: It'll be like, despite my best efforts, I've been un unable to understand what hardcore and medical is. Please help me understand.
[00:21:37] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, we're gonna have some, some fun with this at some point.
We'll have to get into the whole debate, though. I know you and I have talked about it before. We'll put it before the brothers and sisters about a Christmas Carol and what version everybody else likes. That's also seems like, aside from the, the whole eternal debate, which I'm not sure is really serious about whether or not diehard is a Christmas movie, this idea of like, which version of the Christmas Carol do you subscribe to?
Yeah. Which one would you watch if you can only watch one? Which one will you watch? That's, we'll have to save that for another time.
[00:22:06] Tony Arsenal: We'll save it for another time. And we get a little closer to midwinter. No reason we just can't
[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: do it right now because we gotta get to Luke 15.
[00:22:12] Tony Arsenal: We do.
[00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've already been in this place of looking at Jesus' response to the Pharisees when they say to him, listen, this man receives sinners and eats with them.
And Jesus is basically like, yeah, that's right. And let me tell you three times what the heart of God is like and what my mission in serving him is like, and what I desire to come to do for my children. And so we spoke in the last conversation about the parable lost sheep. Go check that out. Some are saying, I mean, I'm not saying this, but some are saying in the internet, it's the definitive.
Congratulation of that parable. I'm, I'm happy to take that if that's true. Um, but we wanna go on to this parable of the lost coin. So let me read, it's just a couple of verses and you're gonna hear in the text that you're going to understand right away. This is being linked because it starts with or, so this is Jesus speaking and this is Luke 15, chapter 15, starting in verse eight.
Jesus says, or a what woman? She has 10 D drachmas and loses. One drachma does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it. And when she has found it, she calls together her friend and her neighbors saying, rejoice with me for I found the D Drachma, which I lost in the same way I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.
[00:23:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. On one level, this is, uh, again, it's not all that complicated of a scenario, right? And we have to kind of go back and relo through some of the stuff we talked about last week because this is a continuation of, you know, when we first talked about the Matthew 13 parables, we commented on like.
Christ was coming back to the same themes, right? And in some ways, repeating the parable. This is even stronger than that. It's not just that Christ is teaching the same thing across multiple parables. The sense here, at least the sense I get when I read this parable, the lost sheep, and then the prodigal, um, sun parable or, or the next parable here, um, is actually that Christ is just sort of like hammering home the one point he's making to the tax collectors and or to the tax collectors or to the scribes who are complaining about the fact that Christ was eating with sinners.
He's just hammering this point home, right? So it's not, it's not to try to add. A lot of nuance to the point. It's not to try to add a, a shade of meaning. Um. You know, we talked a lot about how parables, um, Christ tells parables in part to condemn the listeners who will not receive him, right? That's right.
This is one of those situations where it's not, it's not hiding the meaning of the parable from them. The meaning is so obvious that you couldn't miss it, and he, he appeals, we talked about in the first, in the first part of this, he actually appeals to like what the ordinary response would be. Right? What man of you having a hundred sheep if he loses one, does not.
Go and leave the 99. Like it's a scenario that anyone who goes, well, like, I wouldn't do that is, looks like an idiot. Like, that's, that's the point of the why. He phrases it. And so then you're right when he, when he begins with this, he says, or what woman having 10 silver coins if she loses one, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until he, till she finds it.
And of course, the, the, the emphasis again is like no one in their right mind would not do this. And I think like we think about a coin and like that's the smallest denomination of money that we have. Like, I wouldn't, like if I lost a, if I had 10 silver coin, 10 coins and I lost one of them, the most that that could be is what?
50 cents? Like the, like if I had a 50 cent piece or a silver dollar, I guess, like I could lose a dollar. We're not really talking about coins the way we think of coins, right? We're talking about, um. Um, you know, like denominations of money that are substantial in that timeframe. Like it, there was, there were small coins, but a silver coin would be a substantial amount of money to lose.
So we are not talking about a situation where this is, uh, a trivial kind of thing. She's not looking for, you know, I've, I've heard this parable sort of like unpacked where like, it's almost like a miserly seeking for like this lost coin. Interesting. It's not about, it's not about like. Penny pinching here, right?
She's not trying to find a tiny penny that isn't worth anything that's built into the parable, right? It's a silver coin. It's not just any coin. It's a silver coin. So she's, she's looking for this coin, um, because it is a significant amount of money and because she's lost it, she's lost something of her, of her overall wealth.
Like there's a real loss. Two, this that needs to be felt before he can really move on with the parable. It's not just like some small piece of property, like there's a
[00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: right. I
[00:26:57] Tony Arsenal: don't know if you've ever lost a large amount of money, but I remember one time I was in, um, a. I was like, almost outta high school, and I had taken some money out of, um, out of the bank, some cash to make a purchase.
I think I was purchasing a laptop and I don't know why I, I don't, maybe I didn't have a credit card or I didn't have a debit card, but I was purchasing a laptop with cash. Right. And back then, like laptops, like this was not a super expensive laptop, but. It was a substantial amount of cash and I misplaced it and it was like, oh no, like, where is it?
And like, I went crazy trying to find it. This is the situation. She's lost a substantial amount of money. Um, this parable, unlike the last one, doesn't give you a relative amount of how many she has. Otherwise. She's just lost a significant amount of money. So she takes all these different steps to try to find it.
[00:27:44] Tony Arsenal: We have to feel that loss before we really can grasp what the parable is trying to teach us.
[00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: I like that, so I'm glad you brought that up because I ended up going down a rabbit hole with this whole coined situation.
[00:27:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, we're about to, Matt Whitman some of this, aren't we?
[00:27:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, I think so. But mainly because, and this is not really my own ideas here, there's, there's a lot I was able to kind of just read and kind.
Throw, throw something around this because I think you're absolutely right that Jesus is bringing an ES escalation here and it's almost like a little bit easier for us to understand the whole sheep thing. I think the context of the lost coin, like you're already saying, is a little bit less familiar to us, and so I got into this.
Rabbit hole over the question, why would this woman have 10 silver coins? I really got stuck on like, so why does she have these? And Jesus specific about that he's giving a particular context. Presumably those within his hearing in earshot understood this context far better than I did. So what I was surprised to see is that a lot of commentators you probably run into this, have stated or I guess promulgated this idea that the woman is young and unmarried and the 10 silver coins could.
Could represent a dowry. So in some way here too, like it's not just a lot of money, it's possible that this was her saving up and it was a witness to her availability for marriage.
[00:28:57] Jesse Schwamb: So e either way, if that's true or not, Jesus is really emphasizing to us there's significant and severe loss here. And so just like you said, it would be a fool who would just like say, oh, well that's too bad.
The coin is probably in here somewhere, but eh, I'm just gonna go about my normal business. Yeah. And forsake it. Like, let's, let's not worry about it. So. The emphasis then on this one is not so much like the leaving behind presumably can keep the remaining nine coins somewhere safe if you had them. But this effort and this diligence to, to go after and find this lost one.
So again, we know it's all about finding what was lost, but this kind of momentum that Jesus is bringing to this, like the severity of this by saying there was this woman, and of course like here we find that part of this parable isn't just in the, the kingdom of God's like this, like we were talking about before.
It's more than that because there's this expression of, again, the situation combined with these active verbs. I think we talked about last time that Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love.
Like in the first case, the shepherd brought his sheep home on his shoulders rather than leave it in the wilderness. And then here. The woman does like everything. She lights the candle, she sweeps the house. She basically turns the thing, the place upside down, searching diligently and spared no pains with this until she found her lost money.
And before we get into the whole rejoicing thing, it just strikes me that, you know, in the same way, I think what we have here is Christ affirming that he didn't spare himself. He's not gonna spare himself. When he undertakes to save sinners, he does all the things. He endures the cross scor in shame. He lays down his life for his friends.
There's no greater love than that. It cannot be shown, and so Christ's love is deep and mighty. It's like this woman doing all the things, tearing the place apart to ensure that that which she knew she had misplaced comes back to her. That the full value of everything that she knows is hers. Is safe and secure in her possession and so does the Lord Jesus rejoice the safe sinners in the same way.
And that's where this is incredibly powerful. It's not just, Hey, let me just say it to you one more time. There is a reemphasis here, but I like where you're going, this re-escalation. I think the first question is, why do the woman have this money? What purpose is it serving? And I think if we can at least try to appreciate some of that, then we see again how Jesus is going after that, which is that he, he wants to save the sinner.
He wants to save the soul. And all of the pleasure, then all of the rejoicing comes because, and, and as a result of that context.
[00:31:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:23] Tony Arsenal: The other thing, um, maybe, and, and I hope I'm not overreading again, we've, we've talked about the dangers of overreading, the parables, but I think there's a, and we'll, we'll come to this too when we get into the, um, prodigal son.
Um, there is this sense, I think in some theological traditions that. God is sort of like claiming a people who were not his own. Right. And one of the things that I love about the reform tradition, and, and I love it because this is the picture the Bible teaches, is the emphasis on the fact that God's people have been God's people.
As long as God has been pondering and con like contemplating them. So like we deny eternal justification, right? Justification happens in time and there's a real change in our status, in in time when, when the spirit applies, the benefits that Christ has purchased for us in redemption, right? But there's also a very real sense that God has been looking and considering us as his people in eternity past.
Like that's always. That's the nature of the Pactum salutes, the, you know, covenant of redemption election. The idea that like God is not saving a nameless, faceless people. He's not creating conditions that people can either move themselves into or take themselves out of. He has a concrete people. Who he is saving, who he has chosen.
He, he, you know, prior to our birth, he will redeem us. He now, he has redeemed us and he will preserve us in all of these parables, whether it's the sheep, the coin, or as we'll get to the prodigal sun next week or, or whenever. Um. It's not that God is discovering something new that he didn't have, or it's not that the woman is discovering a coin, right?
There's nothing more, uh, I think nothing more like sort of, uh, spontaneously delightful than like when you like buy a, like a jacket at the thrift store. Like you go to Salvation Army and you buy a jacket, you get home, you reach in the pocket and there's like a $10 bill and you're like, oh man, that's so, so great.
Or like, you find a, you find a. A $10 bill on the ground, or you find a quarter on the ground, right? Yeah. Or you find your own money. Well, and that that's, there's a different kind of joy, right? That's the point, is like, there's a delight that comes with finding something. And again, like we have to be careful about like, like not stealing, right?
But there's a different kind of joy that comes with like finding something that was not yours that now becomes yours. We talked about that with parables a couple weeks ago, right? There's a guy who finds it, he's, he's searching for pearls. He finds a pearl, and so he goes after he sells everything he has and he claims that pearl, but that wasn't his before the delight was in sort of finding something new.
These parables. The delight is in reclaiming and refining something that was yours that was once lost. Right? That's a different thing. And it paints a picture, a different picture of God than the other parables where, you know, the man kind of stumbles on treasure in a field or he finds a pearl that he was searching for, but it wasn't his pearl.
This is different. This is teaching us that God is, is zealous and jealous to reclaim that which was his, which was lost. Yes. Right. So, you know, we can get, we can, maybe we will next week, maybe we will dig into like super laps area versus infra laps. AIRism probably not, I don't necessarily wanna have that conversation.
But there is a reality in the Bible where God has a chosen people and they are his people, even before he redeems them.
[00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.
[00:34:53] Tony Arsenal: These parables all emphasize that in a different way and part of what he's, part of what he's ribbing at with the Pharisees and the, and the scribes, and this is common across all of Christ's teaching in his interactions and we get into true Israel with, with Paul, I mean this is the consistent testimony of the New Testament, is that the people who thought they were God's people.
The, the Jewish leaders, especially the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the, the sort of elites of, uh, first century Jewish believers, they really were convinced that they were God's people. And those dirty gentiles out there, they, they're not, and even in certain sense, like even the Jewish people out in the country who don't even, you know, they don't know the scriptures that like, even those people were maybe barely God's people.
Christ is coming in here and he is going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like you're asking me. You're surprised that I receive sinners and e with them. Well, I'm coming to claim that which is mine, which was lost, and the right response to that is not to turn your nose up at it. The right response is to rejoice with me that I have found my sheep that was lost, that I have reclaimed my coin that was lost.
And as we'll see later on, like he really needles them at the end of the, the, uh, parable of the prodigal son. This is something I, I have to be like intentional in my own life because I think sometimes we hear conversion stories and we have this sort of, I, I guess like, we'll call it like the, the Jonah I heresy, I dunno, we won't call it heresy, but like the, the, the like Jonah impulse that we all have to be really thankful for God's mercy in our life.
But sort of question whether God is. Merciful or even be a little bit upset when it seems that God is being merciful to those sinners over there. We have to really like, use these parables in our own lives to pound that out of our system because it's, it's ungodly and it's not what God is, is calling us.
And these parables really speak against that
[00:36:52] Jesse Schwamb: and all of us speak in. In that lost state, but that doesn't, I think like you're saying, mean that we are not God's already. That if he has established that from a trinity past, then we'd expect what others have said about God as the hound of heaven to be true.
And that is he comes and he chases down his own. What's interesting to me is exactly what you've said. We often recognize when we do this in reverse and we look at the parable of the lost son, all of these elements, how the father comes after him, how there's a cha singer coming to himself. There's this grand act of repentance.
I would argue all of that is in all of these parables. Not, not to a lesser extent, just to a different extent, but it's all there. So in terms of like couching this, and I think what we might use is like traditionally reformed language. And I, I don't want to say I'm overeating this, I hope I'm not at that same risk, but we see some of this like toll depravity and like the sinner is lost, unable to move forward, right?
There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. There is. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found.
The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. Yeah, it's in a slightly different way, but I think that's what we're meant to like take away from this. We're meant to lean into that a bit.
[00:38:12] Jesse Schwamb: And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure.
Jesus has this real pleasure. The Holy Spirit has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. You know, it was Jesus, literally his food and drink like not to be too trite, but like his jam went upon the earth to finish the work, which he came to do. And there are many times when he says he ammi of being constrained in the spirit until this was accomplished.
And it's still his delight to show mercy like you're saying He is. And even Jonah recognizes that, right. He said like, I knew you were going to be a merciful God. And so he's far more willing to save sinners than sinners are to be saved. But that is the gospel level voice, isn't it? Because we can come kicking and screaming, but in God's great mercy, not because of works and unrighteousness, but because of his great mercy, he comes and he tears everything apart to rescue and to save those whom he's called to himself.
[00:39:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I love that old, um, Puritan phrase that wrath is God's alien work. And we, you know, like you gotta be careful when you start to talk that way. And the Puritans were definitely careful about everything. I mean, they were very specific when they spoke, but. When we talk about God's alien work and wrath being God's alien work, what we're saying is not, not that like somehow wrath is external to God.
Like that's not what we're getting at of Right. But when you look at scripture and, and here's something that I think, um. I, I don't know how I wanna say this. Like, I think we read that the road is narrow and the the, um, you know, few are those who find it. I think we read that and we somehow think like, yeah, God, God, like, really loves that.
Not a lot of people are saved. And I, I actually think that like, when we look at it, um, and, and again, like we have to be careful 'cause God, God. God decreed that which he is delighted by, and also that which glorifies him the most. Right? Right. But the picture that we get in scripture, and we have to take this seriously with all of the caveats that it's accommodated, it's anthropopathism that, you know, all of, all of the stuff we've talked about.
We did a whole series on systematic theology. We did like six episodes on Divine Simplicity and immutability. Like we we're, we're right in line with the historic tradition on that. All of those caveats, uh, all of those caveats in place, the Bible pic paints a picture of God such that he grieves over.
Those who are lost. Right? Right. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. That's right. He, he, he seeks after the lost and he rejoices when he finds them. Right. He's, his, his Holy Spirit is grieved when we disobey him, his, his anger is kindled even towards his people in a paternal sense. Right. He disciplines us the way an angry father who loves us, would discipline us when we disobey him.
That is a real, that's a real thing. What exactly that means, how we can apply that to God is a very complicated conversation. And maybe sometimes it's more complicated than we, like, we make it more complicated than it needs to be for sure. Um, we wanna be careful to preserve God's changeness, his immutability, his simplicity, all of those things.
But at the end of the day, at. God grieves over lost sinners, and he rejoices when they come back. He rejoices when they return to him. Just as the shepherd who finds his lost sheep puts that sheep on his shoulders, right? That's not just because that's an easy way to carry a sheep, right? It's also like this picture of this loving.
Intimate situation where God pulls us onto himself and he, he wraps literally like wraps us around himself. Like there are times when, um. You know, I have a toddler and there are times where I have to carry that toddler, and it's, it's a fight, right? And I don't really enjoy doing it. He's squirming, he's fighting.
Then there are times where he needs me to hold him tight, and he, he snuggles in. When he falls down and hurts his leg, the first thing he does is he runs and he jumps on me, and he wants to be held tight, and there's a f there's a fatherly embrace there that not only brings comfort to my son. But it brings great joy to me to be able to comfort him that that dynamic in a, uh, a infinitely greater sense is at play here in the lost sheep.
And then there's this rejoicing. It's not just rejoicing that God is rejoicing, it's the angels that are rejoicing.
[00:42:43] Tony Arsenal: It's the, it's other Christians. It's the great cloud of witnesses that are rejoicing when Aah sinner is returned to God. All of God's kingdom and everything that that includes, all of that is involved in this rejoicing.
That's why I think like in the first parable, in the parable of the lost sheep, it's joy in heaven. Right? It's sort of general joy in heaven. It's not specific. Then this one is even more specific. It's not just general joy in heaven. It's the angels of God. That's right. That are rejoicing. And then I think what we're gonna find, and we'll we'll tease this out when we get to the next par, well the figure in the prodigal son that is rejoicing.
The one that is leading the rejoicing, the chief rejoice is the one who's the standin for God in that parable.
[00:43:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right, exactly right. So,
[00:43:27] Tony Arsenal: so we have to, we have to both recognize that there's a true grief. A true sorrow that is appropriate to speak of God, um, as having when a sinner is lost. And there's also an equally appropriate way to speak about God rejoicing and being pleased and delighted when a sinner returns to him.
[00:43:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's the real payoff of this whole parable. I think, uh, maybe all three of them altogether, is that it is shocking how good the gospel is, which we're always saying, yeah, but I'm really always being moved, especially these last couple weeks with what Jesus is saying about how good, how truly unbelievable the gospel is.
And again, it draws us to the. Old Testament scriptures when even the Israel saying, who is like this? Who is like our God? So what's remarkable about this is that there's an infinite willingness on God's part to receive sinners.
[00:44:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:44:23] Jesse Schwamb: And however wicked a man may have been, and the day that he really turns from his wickedness and comes to God by Christ, God is well pleased and all of heaven with him, and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, like you said, but God has pleasure and true repentance.
If all of that's true, then like day to day, here's what I, I think this means for us.
[00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: Is when we come to Christ for mercy and love and help and whatever anguish and perplexity and simpleness that we all have, and we all have it, we are going with the flow. If his own deepest wishes, we're not going against them.
And so this means that God has for us when we partake in the toning work of Christ, coming to Christ for forgiveness, communing with him despite our sinfulness, that we are laying hold of Christ's own deepest longing and joy.
[00:45:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And
[00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: Jesus is comforted when we draw near the riches of his atoning work because as his body, even his own body in a way is being healed in this process.
And so we, along with it, that I think is the payoff here. That's what's just so remarkable is that not only, like you're saying, is all heaven kind of paying attention to this. Like they're cognizant of it. It's something worthy of their attention and their energies and their rejoicing. But again, it's showing that God is doing all of this work and so he keeps calling us and calling us and calling us over and over again and just like you said, the elect sinner, those estr belongs to God and his eternal purpose.
Even that by itself, we could just say full stop. Shut it down end the podcast. Yeah. That's just worthy to, to rejoice and, and ponder. But this is how strong I think we see like per election in particular, redemption in these passages. Christ died for his chief specifically crisis going after the lost coin, which already belongs to him.
So like you were saying, Tony, when you know, or maybe you don't know, but you've misplaced some kind of money and you put your hand in that pocket of that winter coat for the first time that season and out comes the piece of paper, that's whatever, 20 or whatever, you rejoice in that, right. Right. It's like this was mine.
I knew it was somewhere, it belonged to me, except that what's even better here is this woman tears her whole place apart to go after this one coin that she knows is hers and yet has been lost. I don't know what more it is to be said. I just cannot under emphasize. Or overemphasize how great God's love is in this like amazing condescension, so that when Jesus describes himself as being gentle and lowly or gentle and humble or gentle and humiliated, that I, I think as we understand the biblical text, it's not necessarily just that he's saying, well, I'm, I'm displaying.
Meekness power under control. When he says he's humble, he means put in this incredibly lowly state. Yeah. That the rescue mission, like you're saying, involves not just like, Hey, she lemme call you back. Hey, come over here, says uh. He goes and he picks it up. It's the ultimate rescue, picks it up and takes it back by his own volition, sacrificing everything or to do that and so does this woman in this particular instance, and it should lead us.
I think back to there's this virtuous cycle of seeing this, experiencing this. Being compelled by the law of Christ, as Paul says, by the power of the Holy Spirit and being regenerated and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping. Because in the midst of that repentance and that beautifulness recognizing, as Isaiah says, all of these idols that we set up, that we run to, the one thing they cannot do for us is they cannot deal with sin.
They cannot bring cleanliness and righteousness through confession of sin. They cannot do that. So Christ is saying, come to the one you who are needy, you who have no money. To use another metaphor in the Bible, come and buy. And in doing so, we're saying, Christ, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. And when he says, come, come, I, I've, I have already run.
After you come and be restored, come and be renewed. That which was lost my child. You have been found and I have rescued you.
[00:48:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these, these are so, um, these two parables are so. Comfortable. Like, right, like they are there, there are certain passages of scripture that you can just like put on like a big fuzzy warm bathrobe on like sn a cold morning, a snuggy.
Yeah. I don't know if I want to go that far, but spirits are snuggy and, and these two are like that, right? Like, I know there are times where I feel like Christ redeemed me sort of begrudgingly, right? Mm-hmm. I think we have, we have this, um, concept in our mind of. Sort of the suffering servant, you know, like he's kind of like, ah, if I have to do it, I will.
Right, right. And, and like, I think we, we would, if, if we were the ones who were, were being tasked to redeem something, we might do it. You know, we might do it and we. We might feel a certain sense of satisfaction about it, but I can tell you that if I had a hundred sheep and I had lost one, I would not lay it on my shoulder rejoicing.
I would lay it on my shoulder. Frustrated and glad that I finally found it, but like. Right. Right. That's not what Christ did. That's right. Christ lays us on his shoulders rejoicing. Right. I know. Like when you lose something, it's frustrating and it's not just the loss of it that's frustrating. It's the time you have to take to find it.
And sometimes like, yeah, you're happy that you found it, but you're like, man, it would've just been nice if I hadn't lost this in
[00:49:36] Jesse Schwamb: the That's right.
[00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This woman, there's none of that. There's no, um, there's no regret. There's no. Uh, there's no begrudging this to it. There's nothing. It's just rejoicing. She's so happy.
And it's funny, I can imagine, uh, maybe, maybe this is my own, uh, lack of sanctification here. I can imagine being that friend that's like, I gotta come over 'cause you found your coin, right? Like, I can be, I could imagine me that person, but Right. But honestly, like. This is a, this is a situation where she's so overcome with joy.
She just has to tell people about it. Yeah. She has to share it with people. It, it reminds me, and I've seen this, I've seen this, um, connection made in the past certainly isn't new to me. I don't, I don't have any specific sorts to say, but like the woman at the well, right. She gets this amazing redemption.
She gets this, this Messiah right in front of her. She leaves her buckets at the well, and she goes into a town of people who probably hate her, who think she's just the worst scum of society and she doesn't care. She goes into town to tell everybody about the fact that the Messiah has come, right? And they're so like stunned by the fact that she's doing it.
Like they come to see what it is like that's what we need to be like. So there's. There's an element here of not only the rejoicing of God, and again, like, I guess I'm surprised because I've, I've, I've never sort of really read this. Part, I've never read this into it too much or I've never like really pulled this out, but it, now that I'm gonna say it, it just seems logical, like not only is God rejoicing in this, but again, it should be calling us to rejoice, right?
Christ is. Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently? Like when's the last time? And I, I don't want to, this is, this can be a lot of loss. So again, like. God is not calling every single person to stand up on their lunch table at work, or, I don't know if God's calling anybody to stand up on the lunch table at work.
Right. To like, like scream about how happy they are that they're sick, happy, happy. But like, when's the last time you were so overcome with joy that in the right opportunity, it just over, like it just overcame you and you had to share it. I don't rem. Putting myself bare here, like I don't remember the last time that happened.
I share my faith with people, like my coworkers know that I'm a Christian and, um, my, they know that like, there are gonna be times where like I will bring biblical ethics and biblical concepts into my work. Like I regularly use bible examples to illustrate a principle I'm trying to teach my employees or, or I will regularly sort of.
In a meeting where there's some question about what the right, not just like the correct thing to do, but the right thing to do. I will regularly bring biblical morality into those conversations. Nobody is surprised by that. Nobody's really offended by it. 'cause I just do it regularly. But I don't remember the last time where I was so overcome with joy because of my salvation that I just had to tell somebody.
Right. And that's a, that's a, that's an indictment on me. That's not an indictment on God. That's not an indictment on anyone else. That's an indictment on me. This parable is calling me to be more joyful about. My salvation.
[00:52:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. One of the, I think the best and easiest verses from Psalms to memorize is let the redeemed of the Lord say so.
Yes. Like, say something, speak up. There's, there's a great truth in what you're saying. Of course. And I think we mentioned this last time. There's a communal delight of redemption. And here we see that played out maybe a little bit more explicitly because the text says that the joy is before the angels, meaning that still God is the source of the joy.
In other words, the angels share in God's delight night, vice versa, and not even just in salvation itself, but the fact that God is delighted in this great salvation, that it shows the effectiveness of his saving power. All that he has designed will come to pass because he super intends his will over all things that all things, again are subservient to our salvation.
And here, why would that not bring him great joy? Because that's exactly what he intends and is able to do. And the angels rejoice along with him because his glory is revealed in his mighty power. So I'm, I'm with you. I mean, this reminds me. Of what the author of Hebrew says. This is chapter 12, just the first couple of verses.
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses in this communal kind of redemption of joy surrounding us. Laying aside every weight and the sin, which so easily entangles us, let us run that with endurance, the race that I set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who, for the joy, the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God for consider him who has endured such hostility by sinners against himself, so that you will not grow weary, fainting in heart.
[00:54:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, that's, uh, it's always good for us to end on scripture, so I won't try to add to that.
[00:54:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's the summary. That's what we learned. Yeah.
[00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: That's the summary, Jesse. Um, I'm so stoked to keep going on this series. Um, I, I think we're gonna have to probably take at least a couple weeks on the Parable of Prodigal Son because there's so much to it.
It's, it's a longer, uh, parable. So we'll come back next week. Um, take a little time, read through, uh, Luke 15, grab a decent commentary and, and do your homework so you can come into this conversation with us, ready to sort of soak in and marinate in God's word. And, and you know, this is one of those, um, one of those parables that I think that all of these parables, but like particularly this is one of those parables that I think we should tell other people what we're learning on this one.
I think there's always a place for us to share what we're learning, but it feels, it feels to me like this is something that is pertinent to Christians writ large. There is this sort of malaise and sense. Of a lack of joy that I think is really, yeah, there's almost like a spiritual depression in the church, and I don't use that term lightly like I have, I have friends and family members who suffer from clinical depression.
It's no joke. And there is a sort of like spiritual depression that settled in on the church in a lot of ways. We live in a pretty depressing time. And, and I think that church is affected by that. We could all use a dose of joy and we just happen to be going into, I'll even say it, even though it's not my normal practice, like we're going into Christmas.
Like it's the season of joy. Right? Right. Tis the season to be jolly like, right. There's a, there's a joyfulness in. In Christ that should be coming out of us, and we need to spread that, that needs to be contagious to others. So if you've found this episode, um, helpful in driving you towards that, please do consider sharing it with a friend, right?
Whether you, whether you use it, word of mouth, you send a link through your, through a text message, whatever, please tell someone because, not because Jesse and I are something special, like we're just two guys who wanna talk about the Bible and we get it right. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we're not.
Always a hundred percent sure which of those is which, but this is God's word. And if, if sharing a link to this podcast drives someone to take a look at Luke chapter 15 and, and be able to be drawn by the Holy Spirit to that scripture, then, then that's great. So please consider sharing this episode with a friend.
And if this episode has been helpful for you too, we don't usually ask for this, but um, please go to whatever podcast app you're using and if there's the ability to leave a rating, please do that. Um, it doesn't change the algorithm. It doesn't make it so like we appear higher in the search engines or anything, but people do really do a lot of times look at the ratings of a podcast if they're deciding if they want to invest time in it.
Right. Especially if they look at an episode, it's 59 minutes long. They're like, Ooh, do I really want to burn 59 minutes of my life on this? Oh yeah, you do. A lot of times the way they've. Figure that out is if they look at the ratings and the ratings say yes, this is a great show. So please take a few minutes.
If you can go give us a, a rating on, um, on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you happen to be, we would really appreciate it and we would love for you to be able to share this episode with someone who might need to hear it.
[00:57:34] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, so let's play a little game as we close. So as you've said, we've been through the parable Lost Sheep.
We've been through the parable of the Lost Chama and now the granddaddy, the big one is coming up, the whole culmination of this whole series and sets of parables that Jesus is delivering and he's emphasizing and emphasizing and building momentum and it's the big one. So Tony, I ask you for our coverage over or under two and a half episodes to do it.
I dunno, is that the right line?
[00:58:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think at least two we might, we might stretch into a third, especially since we probably need to come back and talk about how Matthew covers this same subject a little differently. So I'll, I'll say at least two and a half, uh, and maybe the second half of that third one will be coming back to Matthew.
[00:58:22] Jesse Schwamb: So basically three, like, uh, yeah, you're over, which I think is probably the right call to make. So even there. We agreed. I, I felt like if I said three, that's like too many. You need a better line than that. You know? You gotta do it on the halves too, because then that forces an actual decision, which we really didn't make anyway.
'cause we basically just said two and a half.
[00:58:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Two and a half. Yeah. Well, Jesse, without further ado, let's, the sooner we get done with this, the sooner we can get onto the next. That's not actually how time works either, but it's just a good way to close the podcast. So it, if you're listening though, it's true.
It it is. It does. If you're listening, especially if you're listening. Nevermind. I'm gonna stop now. Until next time, Jesse, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.
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In episode 471 of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal begin a multi-part series on Jesus's parables of lost things in Luke 15. This first installment focuses on the Parable of the Lost Sheep, exploring how Jesus uses this story to reveal God's disposition toward sinners. The hosts examine the contextual significance of this teaching as Jesus's response to the Pharisees' criticism of his fellowship with tax collectors and sinners. Through careful analysis of the text, they unpack how this parable not only rebukes religious self-righteousness but also reveals the active, seeking love of Christ for His own. The discussion highlights the profound theological truth that God's joy is made complete in the restoration of His lost children.
The central focus of the Parable of the Lost Sheep is not simply God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active pursuit of them. As Tony Arsenal points out, Jesus presents the shepherd's search not as an extraordinary act of sacrifice, but as the obvious and expected response: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the one that is lost?" Jesus frames this as the normal behavior that any shepherd would exhibit, making the Pharisees' lack of concern for "lost sheep" appear not just uncompassionate but utterly irrational.
This reveals a profound truth about God's character: He is not passively waiting for sinners to find their way back to Him; He is actively seeking them out. As Jesse Schwamb emphasizes, "Christ's love is an active, working love." The shepherd does not merely hope the sheep will return; he goes after it until he finds it. This reflects God's covenant commitment to His people—those whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world. The parable thus powerfully illustrates the doctrines of divine election and effectual calling within a deeply personal and relational framework.
Perhaps the most striking element of this parable is the emphasis on the shepherd's joy upon finding his lost sheep. This isn't merely relief at recovering lost property, but profound celebration that calls for community participation: "Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost." Jesse highlights Thomas Goodwin's profound insight that "Christ's own joy, comfort, happiness, and glory are increased and enlarged by his showing grace and mercy."
This suggests something remarkable about God's relationship with His people—that in some mysterious way, God's joy is made more complete in the act of showing mercy and restoring sinners. The hosts point out that this doesn't imply any deficiency in God, but rather reveals the relational nature of His love. When Jesus states that "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance," He's indicating that divine celebration isn't prompted merely by moral perfection but by restoration and reconciliation.
This understanding transforms how we approach God when we've strayed. As Jesse notes, "Jesus is never tired, flustered, or frustrated when we come to him for fresh forgiveness or renewed pardon." Our repentance doesn't merely avoid punishment; it actually brings joy to the heart of God. This is a profound comfort for believers struggling with sin and failure, assuring us that our return is met not with divine disappointment but with heavenly celebration.
"This parable of the lost sheep gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children. It's really an exceptional and special window into God's design, his loving compassion for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us, for his children who are lost." - Jesse Schwamb
"He wants us to draw on his grace and mercy because it is inherently who he is. And he drew near to us in this incarnation so that his joy and ours could rise and fall together, which is insane that God would come and condescend to that degree that in his giving mercy and in ours receiving it, Christ gets more joy and comfort than we do when we come to him for help and mercy." - Jesse Schwamb
"Christ's love is an active working love. Just as the shepherd did not sit still, wailing for his lost sheep, so our blessed Lord did not sit still in heaven pitying sinners. He comes to us, he came to us, and he continues to draw to himself those who are sheep, who hear his voice." - Jesse Schwamb
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: And what's special about the series? Parables that we're about to look at is it gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children, which is not like, we haven't seen some of that already, but this is, I think, really an exceptional and special window into God's design.
His loving can compare for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us for his children who are lost. It's really unequal in all the parables and probably among some of the most famous, Welcome to episode 471 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:56] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.
[00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. You know, it seems like sometimes we could just summarize the teaching of Jesus like this. You get a parable and you get a parable, and you get a parable, and we've already, by looking at some of these parables, gotten to see what the kingdom of God means.
The kingdom of God is Jesus coming in His power. It's here, but also not yet. The kingdom of God is the judgment of God. The kingdom of God is a blessing of God. The kingdom of God is the treasure of God. And what's special about the series? Parables that we're about to look at is it gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children, which is not like, we haven't seen some of that already, but this is, I think, really an exceptional and special window into God's design.
His loving can compare for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us for his children who are lost. It's really unequal in all the parables and probably among some of the most famous, and I think we'll probably have some maybe like semi hot takes, maybe some like mid hot takes as the young kids say.
[00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: Mid hot takes.
[00:02:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:02:08] Tony Arsenal: So like
[00:02:09] Jesse Schwamb: lukewarm takes, well my thought is like, what is a hot take that's not heretical? Do you know what I mean? So it's gotta be, yeah,
[00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: there you go.
[00:02:16] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's like, listen, we want to be orthodox in our approach here, but I think we gotta, we gotta chew these up a little bit.
Like we gotta digest them, we gotta move them around in our gut and really take everything that we've, we thought we knew about these, we just heard and they've been written on cards or postcards or crocheted into, I guess you're not crocheting bible verses, but like cross stitching Bible verses on pillows and really go deep because I think there's so much here for us, and if this were like for, for everybody that wants to say that, sometimes we take a little bit too long with our series.
Again, I do have a question, simple question for all of those people. And that question is how dare you? And the second thing I would say is, you're lucky that you're not listening to a Puritan podcast. Maybe you never would, like at the Puritans in a podcast, the series would never end. They'd start with like a single verse and be like, we're gonna do two episodes on this.
And then they'd be getting to the like, you know, 4 71 and they still wouldn't have left like the, the first five words.
[00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. We move a little bit faster than that. Pace. Not much. Yeah. Way,
[00:03:15] Jesse Schwamb: listen, way faster. By like Puritan standards, we are cruising. Like we're, we're just like NASCAR going through these parables.
And to that end, I'll try to keep us moving though. I've already delayed us already because we're, we're late for affirmations.
[00:03:30] Jesse Schwamb: Denials. The time is ripe. It is Now. The fields are gleaning with affirmations and denials. So let's, let's bring them in. Tony, are you denying against, are you affirming with something?
[00:03:40] Tony Arsenal: It's a little bit of both, I guess. Um, do it.
[00:03:44] Tony Arsenal: A little while ago, uh, it was maybe back in September, I did an episode on, uh, some theology that was being propagated by a podcast called Reformed Fringe. Um, it was a solo episode, so if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. The affirmation here comes in, in, uh, the form of a show called, I think it's called The Reclamation Cast.
Um, there are a series of podcasts that have addressed some of the same issues. For those who haven't been following it, which I would assume is probably most of you, the issue is kind of blown up online. Um, Theo Cast, which was a pretty big a, a really big podcast in the, uh, sort of reformed ish, particular Baptist world.
Um, they actually split because of this. And so John Moffitt was one of the hosts. Justin Perdue was the other. And then John was also on this show called Reform Fringe with Doug Van Dorn. So I'm affirming some of these other podcasts that have covered the same issue, and I would encourage you to seek them out and listen to them.
I can can pull some links together for the show notes today. Um, more or less the, the issue that I identified, um, is beyond just sort of what's known as Divine Counsel Theology, which was made, made, really made popular by, um, Michael Heiser. I don't know that he would, we could say that he was necessarily like the.
Architect or inventor of that. I'm sure there are people who've had similar thoughts before that, but he's really the main name. Um, he's passed on now, but, um, Doug Van Dorn was a, uh, he's a Baptist pastor outta Col, uh, Colorado, who took his views and actually sort of like cranked him up and particularly.
Uh, troubling is the way he handles, um, the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. Um, I won't go into all of the details, but he wants to argue and he has argued in writing actually, and he, he published the paper first in 2015, and then again in 2024, he published it again, uh, with very minimal changes and nothing substantial.
It was really kind of contextual stuff. Um, he actually argues that in the Old Testament, when we see the angel of the Lord, it's not just, not just God appearing as an angel, it's God actually becoming an angel. And in his paper, at least, he argues, um, more or less that this is a sort of hypostatic union.
It's not just a temporary taking on of some sort of like outward appearance. Um, it's an actual, uh, uh, assumption of properties into the person of the sun. And the whole reason he makes this argument, which is why it's a little disingenuine, that now he's saying that's not what his argument was. He makes this argument in order to make it so the angel of the Lord can genuinely suffer, experience passions, change his mind, um, enter into covenant, come to know new knowledge, like there's all sorts of things that he wants the angel of the Lord to be able to actually do, not just accommodated, but actually.
Experience. Um, and he does that by having the angel of the Lord be an appropriation of angelic properties into the person of the sun, what we would call a hypostatic union. And in his paper, he actually says like, I would want to use all of the same language of, uh, of this union as I do of the incarnation.
He intentionally uses the words image and form kind of drawing from Philippians two. So the, the affirmation comes in and there are other podcasts that have identified this. So it's not just me. I would encourage people to go find them. Where the denial comes in is, um, there have been many people, including myself, who have attempted to engage with Doug Van Dorn, like publicly, directly, um, through private messaging.
There are many people who've tried to reach out to him, and he has just sort of waved all of them away. Which is one thing, if like you just say like, I don't really care to interact with you. I don't really care to have this discussion. But then he is also presenting the situation as though he, he is totally open to having these conversations and nobody is trying to reach out to him.
So I would encourage everyone, you're all reasonable people, search the scriptures, read what he has to say. The paper that he wrote is called Passing the Impassable pa or impassable Impasse, which is hard to say, but it's a very clever title. Um, and it was, it actually was written, I don't know a lot about this controversy and maybe I need to do a little bit more research.
It was actually written during a time where, um, the particular Baptist conventions that were out out west where experiencing a lot of internal controversy regarding impassability, and this was his proposal for how, how biblically you can still maintain the divine attributes of changeness and impassability all these things, uh, without compromising the real, the real passable, um, appearance that we see of the, of God in the Bible.
So. I don't wanna belabor the point. This is not the point of the show. We, I already did a whole episode on this. I've published, I wrote many blog articles. There's a lot that I've, I've put out on this. Um, so check it out, look at it. Wait for yourself. Um, the only reason I've been, this has come up in our telegram chat.
People have encountered this theology. Um, one, one guy was asking about it, 'cause I think like his mom or his aunt or someone close to him had, has been sort of reading Michael Heider's work. Michael Heiser was very instrumental at logos. He was on staff at Logos for quite a while. So a lot of their, um, more speculative theological articles that you might find on their website are written by him.
Um, he was a, one of the main people behind the sort of proprietary translation that, um, Laro uses the Lham, um, English Bible. So. It's not a neutral point. Pretty significant theological consequences if, uh, if our reading of what Doug is saying is correct. Um, and there doesn't seem to be any real openness to discussing that.
He has to be fair, he has published a series of affirmations and denials, um, affirming his a his orthodoxy saying he affirms the change changeness of the son. He denies that there was a hypothetic union. So that's encouraging. It's great to see that when it comes down to it. He's willing to make affirmations, uh, of orthodox things and to deny unorthodox things, but it doesn't really help the situation when those things and those affirmations, denials are still at very least difficult to reconcile with what he wrote.
I think in point of fact, they're actually contradictory to what he wrote. So the, the proper course of action would be for him to say, well, no, that's not what I meant. Or, or, yes, I wrote that, but that's not what I believe. Um, rather than to just try say, trying to say like, well, you all got it wrong.
There's a lot of people reading these papers looking at it going, Ooh, it sure seems like the sun took on an angelic nature, even if that was temporary. That's, that's got some pretty weird consequences for your theology. And one of the shows I was listening to made this point that I thought was interesting and a little scary is this is like an utterly new theology.
Um, no one that I've talked to who is aware of this, who studied these issues. Is aware of anyone ever saying anywhere that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was some sort of like assumption of actual angelic properties into the person of the sun. Almost everywhere that you read. It's either a manifestation view where the sun is kind of appearing as an angel, um, but it's not actually becoming an angel.
It's, it's sort of taking on created medium, uh, in order to reveal himself or an instrumental view, which would be something like there's an angel that is used instrumentally by the Lord, and so we can say that it the angel of the Lord is the Lord in an instrumental sense, kind of like saying like if I pick up a hammer.
Use that hammer for as long as I'm using that hammer. The hammer is actually sort of an extension of me. I'm moving it, I'm motivating it, I'm controlling it, it's connected to me, and then I put it down when I'm finished. Those are kind of the two main views that people, people would argue in the Old Testament, if they want to even say that the angel of the Lord is a Christoph, it would either be this manifestation view or this instrumental view, this sort of weird novel assumption of properties view.
I'm, I've never encountered anything like that and I've studied this, this, this particular issue at some length. So check out the other episodes, I'll pull together some links, uh, of ones that have done it, both that have been, uh, critical of Doug's position. And also there was one, um, on remnant radio, which I never heard of, but, um, that was acknowledging that there are some question marks, but sort of saying like, this really is an overblown controversy.
Um, and then I'll link to Doug's podcast too, so you can listen to his own words and, and sort of think through it yourself.
[00:11:51] Jesse Schwamb: Some point I have this volition, you know, places, organizations, groups might have like FAQs, frequently asked questions. I have this idea to put together for us, like a frequently discussed topic.
This would be one of them. We've talked, or we co we've come back to this idea of like the molecule way, the messenger of the Lord many times. Yeah. In part because I think there's a good and natural curiosity among many when you're reading the scriptures and you see that's the angel of the Lord and you're trying to discern, is it Christoph?
And in some cases it seems more clear than others. For instance, the Maia appearing to, you know, Joshua, or, you know, there's, there's all kinds of instances in the scripture that draw us into this sense of like, well, who is it that is being represented here? And the funny thing about this though, and I agree with you, that like makes it.
Puts it in like, I would say contradistinction to like just kind of innocently wanting to understand is that there's a lot of theological gymnastics happening here, like a lot and two, it seems to me that he's kind of trying to create a problem to find a solution on this one. Yeah. And so it should give everybody that sense that we always talk about where like the red light goes off, the flags get thrown up, that when you hear that, you're just like, well, something is not right about that.
And the thing that's not right about it is one, it doesn't subscribe to, like you're saying, any kind of historical orthodoxy. And two, it's just funky for funky sake. It's, there's really a lot that's happening there to get to some kind of end, and it's better to know what that end is. I'm glad you brought that up.
So I think you can, everybody who's listening can weigh, like, if you. Don't wanna weigh into that, or you don't really need to solve the problem that's being created here, then don't bother with it altogether. Yeah. Uh, it's just not worth your time. But people, this is the hide thing. Like when, when we are challenged to be discerning people, when we are challenged to take scriptures at face value, there is always a tendency for us sometimes to go too deep, to get too wild with it, to try to turn around and bend it to, to answer all in every single question.
And even the reform tradition doesn't attempt to do that. So here, there is something that's beautiful about these certain mysteries of God and to take him at his face, to trust him in his word, we should seek, seek out many things. Some things are just not worth seeking out. So, you know, the Internet's gonna internet and people are gonna, people and theologians are gonna theologize.
And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not that productive.
[00:14:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think to be as charitable as I possibly can be, I think, um, Doug is, has identified a legitimate. Question about the Old Testament, right? Right. The, the Bible appears when we read about God in the Old Testament. He appears to do things like change his mind, suffer yes.
Grieve experience passions. Right. Um, and, and so that's a real, um, question that needs to be answered as you read the Old Testament. Um, and the two options of course, or the two primary options of course, are either that God actually suffers, he actually experiences those things, in which case he wouldn't be a changeless God.
Um, he wouldn't be a perfect God because there's these, these modes of change within God. The other option would be that there's some sort of appearance of suffering or appearance of, of change or passions that is not actual, it's not real in the sense that he's not God's lying. It's not that God's lying to us, of course not.
But that these are appearances for our sake. We would say that's, we call that the doctrine of accommodation. Right. Um. What Doug tries to do is actually exactly what the church did in trying to understand how it could be that the second person of the Trinity suffered. Uh, why, why we can genuinely say that God suffered.
Um, we can say that and that the answer was the hypothetic union, and this is where it really kind of like jumped into full relief for me is Doug has the same answer for the Old Testament, but instead of an incarnation of humanity, I don't know what you would call it, an, an evangelization or a, something like that, um, he would probably call like a, some somatization.
Um, he uses the difference between Soma and sars as though that somehow answers the question. He says it's not a, an incarnation into sarks. It's a, an assumption of properties in da Soma. But in either case, like his answer is the same answer. That the way that the angel of the Lord suffers in the Old Testament is not according to his divine nature.
It's according to these angelic properties that are assumed into his person well. Okay, so like you get the same conclusion. There needs to be some explanation now of like, well, why is it a hypostatic union when it's the human nature, but it's not a hypostatic union when it's the angelic nature or angelic properties.
Um, and I think the, the real answer is that when Doug wrote those papers, he just didn't realize those implications. Um, Doug is a sharp guy, like, don't get me wrong, he's a smart guy. Um, I think he's got a pretty good grip on Hebrew and, and a lot of this too is, um. Not to make this more of an episode than it is, but, um, this Divine Council worldview at first feels like not that big of a deal when you, when you read about it the first time.
Um, or when you read sort of like popular treatments of it. Um, the real problem is that this divine council worldview, um, which I'm not gonna define again, you can look, I'll pull the radio episode or the other podcast episodes, but this divine council worldview becomes like the controlling meta narrative for the entire scripture for these guys.
And so if, if the son is to be the sort of lead Elohim on this divine council besides Yahweh himself, then he has to become an angel. He has to become a one of the sons of God in order to do this. Sort of almost ignoring the fact that like he already was the son of God. Like, it, it just becomes, um, this controlling meta-narrative.
And if all that this, all that this divine council worldview is saying is like, yes, there's a class of creatures. Um, that are spiritual in nature and the Bible uses the word Elohim to describe them and also uses the word Elohim to describe the one true God who's in an entirely different class. And it just happens to use the same, the same word to describe those two classes.
Okay. Like I would find a different way to say that that's maybe not as risky and confusing, but that would be fine. But this goes so much farther than than that. And now it has all these weird implications. He actually did a five, five-part sermon series at his church where his argument is essentially that like this.
This overarching narrative of the Sons of God and, and the 70 sons of God. Um, that that's actually the story that explains how salvation functions and what we're being saved to is we're not being swept into the life of the Trinity, which is kind of the classic Christian view, the classic orthodox view that because, because of who the son is by nature, in reference to the father, when we're adopted, we gain that same relationship with the father and the son and the spirit.
Um, he's, he's wanting to say, it's actually more like, no, we, we we're sort of brought onto this divine council as, as creator representatives of the cosmos. So it's, it, there's a lot to, it's, um, again, I, I don't want people just to take my word for it. I'm gonna provide as many receipts as I can, um, in the, the, um, show notes.
Um, but yeah, it's, it's weird and it, it's unnecessary and
[00:18:57] Jesse Schwamb: that's right.
[00:18:58] Tony Arsenal: It made a lot of sense to me when Michael Heiser went down these routes, because his whole program was, he had a, a podcast called The Naked Bible, and the whole idea was like he interprets the Bible apart from any prior interpretations, which of course we know is not possible.
But that was sort of his plan was he's. It wasn't necessarily anti cre, anti-real or anticon confessional. He just thought you needed to and could come to the Bible without any sort of pre interpretive, uh, positions. Um, so it made a lot of sense to me when he was like, well, yeah, this isn't the way that the historic tradition isn't understood this, but that doesn't matter.
But then you have someone like Doug Van Dorn come around who claims to be a 1689 Confessional Baptist. This is like radically foreign to that system of doctrine. So it's just a weird situation. It's kind of an abandonment of the pattern of sound words that handed down to us, the ages. Um, and it does have all these weird implications, and I'm not hearing loud and clear.
I am not saying Doug Van Dorn is not a Christian. Um, I do think that the implications of what he's teaching are heretical. Um, but we've made the distinction before that like, just because you teach something heretical doesn't mean you're a heretic. Um, that's a, that's a formal proclamation that the church officially makes not some dude on the internet with a podcast.
But the, the implications of his teaching are quite dangerous. So. Check it out. Read it with caution and with discernment, um, and with, you know, a good systematic theology that can help kind of correct you in your hands. And the creeds and the confessions. But dude, check it out. You, you're reasonable people.
Look at the scriptures yourself and make your own decisions. I don't expect anybody to ever just take my word for any of this stuff.
[00:20:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's right. Or like you said, don't bother with. Yeah. Or don't bother. Just read the confessions. Unaware of it. Yeah. That's also, okay. Stick to the, the, hopefully the good local preaching and teaching that you're receiving and just hang out there.
Yeah. And that's also okay. The internet is a super strange and weird place. Yeah. And that includes even among well intentions. Theology, sometimes it just gets weird. And this is one of those examples.
[00:20:51] Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. I often tell people that my, my goal in any sort of public teaching or podcasting or blogging or when I'm preaching, uh, my goal is to be as like vanilla reformed as I possibly can.
Like that's what I'm saying. There, there are times where like some of the stuff that I be, like, I, I'm not like straight down the middle on every single thing. There are things that I would, you know, like my view on, um, state relations with church like that, that's not exactly run of the mill vanilla presbyterianism.
Um, so there are definitely things where I'm, I'm sort of a little off center on, um, but I try to be like right down the middle of the vanilla, vanilla aisle here with maybe a little bit of chocolate sauce here and there. But it's, it's pretty, uh, my reform theology is pretty boring and I'm fine with that.
I love
[00:21:35] Jesse Schwamb: it. I love it. It's okay to be boring, isn't it? Like boring? It's is for the most part, right. On the money. Because often when we do take our views and we polarize them to some degree, we know that there's a greater probability propensity for the errors to lie there if you're always hanging out there.
Yeah. But especially in this, again, you've said all the right things it, it's just one of those things. But it's a good mark for all of us to understand that when we move so far away from orthodoxy that we're just kind of out on the pier by ourselves and you're looking around, you ought to ask what happened that you're out there so far.
[00:22:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, save us from this train of thought. What are you affirming or denying today?
[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: I hope I have something that's exactly the opposite. As you know, Tony, not all affirmations especially are created equal because sometimes we throw one out there and it's, it's good. We think it's great. Maybe not for everybody.
It doesn't resonate. It doesn't hit. This is not one of those, this is for everybody.
[00:22:24] Jesse Schwamb: I'm coming in with a hot, strong affirmation, and that is one of the things you and I have promulgated for so long is the beauty, the necessity, the responsibility, and the joy of regular daily worship, and that can look.
Lots of ways, but I think you and I have tried in our own lives and we've spoken a lot about the high conviction that we have that that kinda worship should be participatory and it can involve reading the scriptures, praying, singing this spills over into convictions about family worship, leading our families, and that kinda experience, even if it's just a little bit every day and even if it's, we give it our best efforts, this is not like a kind of legalistic approach.
And so I just came across something that I think I've been testing for a while that I think is faab fabulous for everybody, could be helpful to you in daily worship. And I'm just gonna give you the website first and explain what it is. Secondly, so the website is sing the worship initiative.com. That's sing dot the worship initiative.com.
You can find it if it's easier. Just search the Worship initiative. What this is, is it is. Once you sign up for this, you'll actually get a text. It's a daily text, and that text will be a link in a browser every day. So it's not a podcast, but it comes through a browser every day. It is a time of, I would say, I'll use the word colloquially, it's a time of devotional with singing led by Shane and Shane and some of their other musicians and their friends.
And this is glorious. It's no more than 15 minutes, and it's purposely orchestrated to lead you or whoever's listening with you in singing, including in the app or rather in the browser. They will give you the words for the songs that they're gonna sing that day. And one, Shannon and Shane are fantastic musicians.
You wanna listen to this with a good speaker or set of, uh, earbuds because, uh, the music is great and it's very stripped down. It's just, it's just piano and a little bit guitar generally. Uh, but the speaking of the theological pieces of what's in these songs is fantastic. And this just past week, they've done songs like Crown Hit with Many Crowns.
Um, in Christ Alone, he will hold me fast, he will hold me fast, is an incredible piece of music and a piece of worship. So I'm just enjoying, they are using rich deeply theological songs to speak rich, deep theological truths, and then to invite you into a time of singing, like along with them. It's as if like they were just in your living room or in their kitchen and said, Hey, you got 15 minutes, especially start the day.
Why don't we gather around this table and why don't we worship together? So I haven't found something quite like this where it's like an invitation to participate, both by being active listeners into what they're saying, but by also singing together. So I. Can only come at this with a really hot affirmation because I'm being blessed by it.
And this rhythm of somebody like leading you daily into song, I'm finding to be so incredibly valuable. Of course, like we can find song in lots of places. We may lead ourselves, we may rely on the radio or a playlist to do that, but this kind of unique blend of a time that's being set apart, that's organized around a theme and then brings music into that as a form of meditation and worship is pretty singular.
So check out, sing the worship edition of.com and especially if you're a fan of Shane and Shane, you're gonna slide right into this and feel very blessed because they're talented musicians and what they're bringing, I think is a, is a rich theological practice of actual worship, not just devotionals of some kind, but like actual participatory worship of, of in spirit and truth.
[00:25:53] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I just signed up for this while you're talking. It took about a minute. It's super easy. So, um, and I'm sure that they have a way to opt out. If you start it and you hate it and you want to just stop getting text messages, I'm sure you can just respond, stop. Um, so there's really nothing to lose.
There's no gimmick. They don't ask for a credit card, anything like that. Um, and I, I'm with you, like I love me some Shane and Shane music, and I do like some Shane and Shane music, um, that, that like takes me way back. Those, there are a lot of singers who've been at this for a long time. Yes, Shane and Shane was like.
A really like popular band when I was in like, like upper high school. Oh yeah. So like, we're talking about a multi-decade career, long career doing mostly worship music, like they're performers, but they have entire, they have entire, many entire, um, albums that are psalms, um, entire albums that are worship choruses or what you might think of as chorus singing.
Um, so yeah, I think this is great. And I'm always looking for new ways to integrate worship into my life. So this could be something as simple as like, maybe you're not gonna be able to sing out loud, but you could listen to this on the bus on the way home. Or you could put in your air, your ear pods, uh, when you're, you know, doing the dishes and instead of just listening to another podcast.
I recognize the irony of saying that on a podcast that you may be listening to while you're doing the dishes, but instead of just listening to another podcast, you spend a little bit of time thinking about meditating on God's word. So that's great. I think that's an awesome, awesome information. A little
[00:27:20] Jesse Schwamb: bit like very casual liturgy, but you're right, they've been around for a while and this, the content that they're producing here strikes me as like very mature.
Yeah, both like in, of course, like the music they're doing and how they're singing, they're singing parts, but also just what they're speaking into. It's not just like kind of a, let's let tell you how this song impacted my life. They're, they're pulling from the scriptures and they're praying through.
They're giving you a moment to stop and pause and pray yourself. There's a lot that's, that's built in there. And can I give like one other challenge?
[00:27:47] Jesse Schwamb: This, this came to me as well this week and I know we've had some conversation in the telegram chat about like family worship, leading our families in worship about somehow how do we model that?
How do we bring that together? And music often being a part of that. And I think that it's especially important for families to hear their. Their fathers and their husbands sing, no matter what your voice sounds like. Can I give a, a challenge? I think might sound crazy. This might be a hot, hot take. And so you can bring me back down instead of a mid hot take.
If it, yeah, if it's a little bit too hot. But I was reading an article, and this is really from that article, and it, it did challenge me. And the article basically challenged this and said, listen, most people are actually far more musical than they understand themselves to be. And that might just not be in the instrumentation of the voice, but in other ways.
And so the challenge was if you're a, a husband, a father, maybe you have some proclivity of music, maybe you have none. The challenge was basically, why don't you consider. Learning a musical instrument to lead your family in worship. And, and the challenge was basically like, pick up a guitar and, uh, see if you can eke out a couple of chords.
Work through that just for the sole purpose of if nothing else, but saying like, I want to participate in something differently in my home. And maybe that's getting a keyboard and just, just trying it there. If I can play the guitar, anybody truly I think can play the guitar. It's, it's not really that difficult.
I just found this captivating that this guy laid down the gauntlet and said, maybe you ought to consider doing that if only to be a model of worship in your own home throughout, throughout the week. And I just thought, you know what? That's something we're thinking about. I think all of us have something there.
And that might be for some, like, maybe it means strengthening your personal prayer closet. So like your example in time of, of corporate worship of your family is stronger. Maybe it means your study of the scriptures, not just of course for like pure devotional life, but to instruct or to practice that scripture for your family.
So I, I take this point of, it's not just about the music, but it could be if you're, if you're looking and saying like, man, I wish that we had some music. Um, you, you possibly could be the music. And it's just something to think about.
[00:29:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'll say this. Uh, it's not that hard to play guitar, but Jesse is actually quite a talented guitar player, so even though he's right, it's not that difficult.
Uh, Jesse is, uh, is much better than he's letting on. But yeah, I mean, most modern worship songs, um, you can get by, you might have to like find a version online of it in this key, and you might not be able to sing it in this key, but like GC, D and E Minor. Yeah, that's right. We'll get you, we will get you basically every major worship song that you're used to singing.
And those are all very easy chords to play. Yes. Um, there are difficult chords and some, some worship songs are more difficult or the, the tone is more difficult. Um, but even, even something like that, or get a keyboard and just do, you know, you can just pluck out notes, right? You can write on the notes what the, what the name of the notes are and just pluck out notes so people can sing with it.
Um, there are lots of ways you can do, get a kazoo. You could lead music, you could lead your, that's your family in worship with a kazoo, um, or get the Trinity Salter hymnal app. Like, it's, yes, there are many ways that you could incorporate music in your family devotions and your personal devotions that, um, are not that challenging and, uh, really do add a lot.
Now, I know there are some, there are probably a few people in our, our listening audience that are acapella only people. And I respect that perspective and, and I understand where it comes from. But, um, even then, like this might also be a little bit of a hot take. I'm not an excellent singer. I'm not a terrible singer, but, um, I could be a better singer if I practiced a little bit.
And with the, with the ease of finding things like YouTube vocal coaches and right, just like vocal lessons and techniques and practice. Cool. Like, you could very easily improve your ability to sing and your confidence to sing, right? And that's only gonna help you to lead your family. I'll even throw this in there.
Um. I'm in a congregation with lots and lots and lots of young families. There are five pregnant couples in our church right now. Wow. And our church, our church is probably only about 70 people on an average Sunday. So five pregnant, uh, couples is a pretty high percentage. Um, what I will tell you is that when the congregation is singing, we have lots of men who sing and they sing loud.
But when the children are looking around at who is singing, they're not looking at the women, they're looking at the men. Right. Um, and you know, we're not, we are not like a hyper-masculinity podcast. We're not, you know, this isn't Michael Foster's show, this isn't the Art of Manhood. Um, but we've been pretty consistent.
Like, men lead the way. That's the way the Bible has, that's way God's created it. And that's the way the Bible teaches it. And if you're in the church. You are commanded to sing. It's not an option.
[00:32:28] Tony Arsenal: But what I will tell you is that, um, singing loud and singing confidently and singing clearly and helping the congregation to sing by being able to project your voice and sing competently, uh, it does a lot for your church.
Yes. So it's never gonna be the wrong decision to improve your ability to sing and your confidence to sing. So I think that's great. I think the whole thing is great. You can learn to sing by listening to Shane and Shane and singing with them, and you can Yes. Invest a little bit of time and maybe a little bit of money in, in like an online vocal.
I mean, you can get something like Musician or something like that that has guitar, but also you can do vocal training through that. There's lots of resources out there to do that. So yes, I guess that's the challenge this week. Like, let's all get out there and improve our singing voices a little bit and, and see if we can, can do this together.
[00:33:14] Jesse Schwamb: I love it. I, I don't wanna belabor the points.
[00:33:16] Jesse Schwamb: I only bring it up because there might be somebody out there that's thinking, you know, I'd like to do more of that. And I say to you, well, why not you? It's okay. Like you could just go and explore and try get or borrow a relatively inexpensive guitar. And like you said, you don't need to learn to read music to do that.
You're just kind of learning some shapes and they correspond to certain letters in the alphabet. And in no time at all, you could be the person that's strumming out, eking out some chords and you're doing that at home. And that might be a great blessing. It might change your life. It might change the trajectory of how you serve in the church.
And you might find that God has equipped you to do those things. Yeah. And wouldn't it be lovely just to try some of those things out? So whatever, whatever they are, it's certainly worth trying and, and music is a big part of, I know like your life. Mine and it is someday. Tony, we have to do the sing episode.
I don't know that we've actually done that one, right? We just talk about what it like, is it a command that we sing and why I think we've
[00:34:08] Tony Arsenal: done that. I think we did have, we, it's early on in the episode on our views. Might have changed a little bit. So we maybe should um, we should loop back to, I'm sure we talked about 'em when we were going through Colossians as well.
[00:34:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think we did. I just dunno if we did, like, we're, we're just gonna set a whole hour aside and for us, that's definitely not an hour, but, and just talk about this in particular and like what, why do we sing and what, why does guy command this? And then why our voice is different and why do some people feel this, you know, sense of like why don't have a good voice and you know, we, you always hear people say like, well make a joyful noise.
And I think sometimes that falls flax. You're kinda like, yeah, but you don't know the noise I'm making you. That's kind of the response you hear. So some someday we'll come back to it, but I'm gonna make a prophetic announcement that there is no way we're going get through this one parable. No already. So.
[00:34:55] Jesse Schwamb: Everybody strap in because we'll do probably a part one. And if you're curious about where we're going, we're moving just away from Matthew for now, we're gonna be hanging out in Luke 15. We've got a trio of parables about lost things. And again, I think this is gonna be very common to many people. So I encourage you as best you can, as we read these to always start our conversation, try to strip away what you've heard before and let's just listen to the scripture.
[00:35:20] Jesse Schwamb: So we're gonna start in Luke chapter 15 in verse one. I'm not even gonna give you the name of the parable because you will quickly discern which one it is. So this is the Luke chapter 15, beginning of verse one. Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Jesus to listen to him, and both the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them.
So he told them this parable saying. What man among you, if he has 100 sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the 99 in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it. And when he is found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors saying to them, rejoice with me for I found my lost sheep.
I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repentance than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance.
[00:36:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And yeah, this, this will definitely be a multi-part episode. And, and part of that is we just spent a half an hour talking about affirmations and denials.
I think we probably should have a podcast called Belaboring The Point, which is just us talking about other random stuff. Fair.
[00:36:33] Tony Arsenal: But, um, the other part is that this parable is, um, slightly different in Luke as it is in Matthew.
[00:36:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:36:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, and also it's positioning in the narrative and what comes immediately following it is different.
And I think that's worth unpacking a little bit as we talk about it this week, next week and, and probably maybe even into a third week. Um, but the, the parable here on, on one level, like most parables is super, super straightforward, right? Like right. This is God's di, this is God's demeanor, and his disposition is that he seeks that which is lost, um, which is good news for us because all of us are lost.
There's only lost people until God finds them. Right. Um, and find again, of course, is an accommodated way of saying it's not like God has to go out searching for us. He knows where we are and he knows how to find us. Um. But this is also a different format for a parable, right? He's, he's not saying the kingdom of heaven is like this.
The parable is what man of you having a hundred sheep? Like the parable is a question Yes. Posed to the audience, and it, it is in the context here, and this is where, this is where looking at the parallels between different, different gospels and how it's presented and even the different variations here shows you, on one level it shows you that Jesus taught these parables in multiple different contexts and different occasions.
Right? In this occasion, it's he's sitting down, he's with the tax collectors and the sinners. They're grumbling. They're saying, this man eats with sinners. And receives them in, um, in Matthew, it's slightly different, right? He's in a different context and sit in a different teaching context. So the way that we understand that is that Christ taught these parables multiple places.
And so we should pay attention to the variation, not just because there's variation for variation's sake, but the way that they're positioned tells us something. So when he's telling the account in Luke, it's told as a corrective to the tax collectors and the um. Right on the Pharisees, um, who are, sorry.
It's a, it's a corrective to the Pharisees and the scribes who are grumbling about the tax collectors and the sinners drawing near to Christ. And so he speaks to the Pharisees and to the scribes and is like, well, which one of you wouldn't go seek out their lost sheep? Like, it's this question that just lays bare.
They're really sinful. Ridiculous Jonah. I just invented that. Like Jonah I perspective that like, oh, exactly how dare God go after how dare Christ eat with sinners and tax collectors? And he says, well, if you love something. If you love your sheep, you're going to go after your sheep.
[00:39:03] Tony Arsenal: You're not going to just abandon, uh, this sheep to its own devices, even though there is, and again, this is a, a comedy way of talking about like, even though there's some risk associated with going after the one sheep, because you do have to leave the 99, he still is saying like, this is the character.
This is my character speaking as grace. This is my character. This is the character of my father. And there's this implication of like, and it's obviously not the character of you. So I think this is a, this is a really great parable to sort of highlight that feature of parables when they're repeated across different, um, gospels.
We have to pay attention, not just to the words of the parables themselves, but what the teaching is in response to what the teaching like proceeds. We'll see when we look at Matthew, there's a very, there's a, a different. Flavor to the parable because of what he's going to be leading into in the teaching.
So I love this stuff. This has been such a great series to sort of like work through this because you, you really start to get these fine details.
[00:39:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This parable of the lost sheep is I think on the face straightforward, like you said. But it is actually complex. It's complex in the argumentation and the posturing Jesus takes here, like you said, he's binding the pharisee.
This is condemning question of like which one of you, like you said. So there's that, which is slightly different element than we've seen or covered so far. There's also the context, like you said, in which it happens and I think we need to think specifically about. Who is this lost? Who are the 99? Who are the ones that Jesus is really trying to draw in with conviction, but also, again, what is he saying about himself?
And it's way more, of course, like we're gonna say, well, this is again, that default, that heart posture. Even those things are more cliche than we mean them to be. Yeah. And we need to spend some time, I think, on all of these elements. And it starts with, at least in Luke, we get this really lovely context about when the teaching unfolds.
And even that is worth just setting down some roots for for just a second. Because what I find interesting here is I think there's a principle at play that we see where. Everything that everything gives. Jesus glory, all the things give him glory, even when his enemies come before him and seek to label him.
It's not as if Jesus appropriates that label, repurposes, it turns it for good. The very label, the things that they try to do to discredit him, to essentially disparage him, are the very things that make him who he is and show his loving and kindness to his people. And I think we'll come back to this like this, this sheep this, these are his children.
So these words that it starts with, that were evidently spoken with surprise and scorn, certainly not with pleasure and admiration. These ignorant guides of the Jews could not understand a religious preacher having anything to do with what they perceive to be wicked people. Yeah. And yet their words worked for good.
I mean, this is exactly like the theology of the cross. The very saying, which was meant for reproach, was adopted by Jesus as a true description of his ministry. It is true. He's the one who comes and sits and subs and communes and touches the sinners, the ugly, the unclean, the pariahs. It led to his speaking three of these particular parables in Luke in rapid succession.
For him to emphasize that he's taken all of what was literally true that the scribes of Pharisees said, and to emphasize that he is indeed the one who received sinners. It's not like he's just like saying, well, lemme put that on and wear that as a badge. He's saying. You do not understand God if you think that God does not receive sinners, to pardon them, to sanctify them, to make them fit for heaven.
It's his special office to do so. And this, I think therein lies this really dip deep and rich beauty of the gospel, that that's the end that he truly came into the world.
[00:42:47] Jesse Schwamb: He came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. He came to the world to safe sinners, what he was upon Earth. He's now at the right hand of God and will be for all eternity.
And he's emphatically the sinner's friend. And without this reproach from the Pharisees, like we don't get this particular teaching and what they intended again, to be used to really discredit God, to say, look, how can this be the son of God? What we get then for all of eternity is some understanding of Christ.
And even here now with his word, we have this sense like, listen, do we feel bad? Do we feel wicked and guilty and deserving of God's wrath? Is there some remembrance of our past lives, the bitterness of sin to us? Is there some kind of recollection of our conduct for which we're ashamed? Then we are the very people who ought to apply to Christ.
And Christ demonstrates that here, that his love is an act of love. Just as we are pleading nothing good of our own and making no useless delay, we come because of this teaching to Christ and will receive graciously his part in freely. He gives us eternal life. He's the one who sinners. I'm so thankful for this parable because it sets up very clearly who Jesus is, and this is where we can say he is for us.
So let us not be lost for lack of applying to him that we may be saved. This text gives us the direct inroad to apply for that kind of healing and favor of God.
[00:44:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and I love, um, there is such a, um, subtle sort of SmackDown that Jesus does. Like, yeah. I, I think, um, just speaking on a purely human level for a second, like Jesus is such a master re tion.
Like he is so handy and capable to just dismantle and smack down people who, and I obviously, I don't mean that in like a sinful way. Like he just puts down the argument. He just gets it done with, and even the way this is phrased, right, they come, they're grumbling, this man receives sinners and meets with them.
So he told them this par ball, what, what man of you having a hundred sheep, if he lost one of them, doesn't leave the 99 in the open country and go after the one that is lost, right? So he's saying like, he jumps in right away, like. This is just the obvious answer. This is just the obvious state, like who would not go after their sheep.
I think we hear this, and again, I'm not an expert on like first century sheep herding practices, right? But like we think of it, I look at it, I'm like, actually, like that seems like a really bad investment. Like it would be really bad idea to go after the one sheep and leave your 99 in the open country.
That seems like a silly answer. That's my error. That's me being wrong because he's saying that as the obvious answer. Right? I think we sometimes, um, I've heard, I've heard sermons that preach this, that make it almost like this is a super reckless. You know, abandonment. Like he's so enamored with us that he leaves the 99 and he goes after the one, and he's taking such a huge risk.
But the way that this is presented, this is the obvious thing that anyone in their right mind would do if they lost a sheet. Right? For sure. Right? It's not an unusual response. Yes. There's an element of risk to that, and I think that's, that's part of the parable, right? There's a, there's a riskiness that he's adding to it because, um.
Again, we wanna be careful how we say this. Um, God's love is not reckless in the sense that we would normally think about reckless, but it's reckless in the sense that it, it es assumes sort of ordinary conventions of safety. Right? Right. That's not really what's at play here. Like the, the fact is Christ presents the scenario where you, you go after one lost sheep and leave your 99 in the open country or in Matthew, it's on the mountains.
Like that's the normal expected course here, such that if you are the person who won't do that, then you are the one that's out of the ordinary. But then he goes on to say, and this is where, where I think he's just such a master, he's such a master at setting a logical trap. Here he says, um. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors saying to them, rejoice with me for I have found my sheep that was lost.
And again, this is the expected answer. This is not some unusual situation where like people are like, oh man, he like, he had a party 'cause he found a sheep. That's strange. This is what, what would be expected, right? This would be the normal response. But then he says, just so I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance.
He is able, in the course of like. 30 words, like this is a short, short response. He's able to show them that their response to, to sinners is totally out of the ordinary. Like it's a, it's sort of an insane response. Um, he positions going after the one sheep and leaving the 99 as the sane response and leaving the, you know, leaving the one to be lost, leaving the sinners and tax collectors to be lost.
That's the insane response. Right. That's the one that like, nobody would do that though. Why would anybody do that? But then he goes to show like, but that's exactly what you're doing.
[00:47:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Right. And he
[00:47:56] Tony Arsenal: says, what you should be doing is rejoicing with me for, I found my lost, she. Right. He shifts. He shifts.
He's now the man in the parable saying, um, not just, uh, not just rejoice or not just I'm rejoicing, but he's summoning them to rejoice with him over the salvation of these lost sinners. And that is the normal expected response. And then he, he shows like there will be this rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents more so than if there was a, but, and we should address this too.
He's not saying that there is a such thing as a righteous person who needs no repentance. Right? He's saying like, even if there were 99 righteous people who need to know repentance, even if that was somehow the case, there would be more joy. There is more joy, there will be more joy over the sinner who repents than over a hun 99 people who didn't need to be saved.
Right? He makes the sin, the, the, um, Pharisees and the scribes look like total chumps and totally like. Totally self-absorbed and turned inwards on themselves in this tiny little master stroke that you wouldn't even, you wouldn't even think that that was part of the point. If it wasn't for the fact that it was positioned right after verse 15, one and two.
You just wouldn't get that from this parable. That there is this sort of like rhetorical SmackDown going on that I think is, is important for us to, to latch onto a little bit here.
[00:49:18] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, why is our podcast not three hours? Because there's so much I want to say, so. I'm totally with you. I like what you brought up about this recklessness of God, and I'm with you.
We shouldn't define that in the same way. Maybe we can modify it. I might say like His love is recklessly spend thrift. That is, we see when Paul says like God has lavished his love on us, like these big verbs that they are real. Yeah. It's not just hyper rip hyperbole or just like flowery language. And I think as you're speaking, what really occurred to me, what really kind of came through with what you're saying is, okay, what is this cost?
Why is he so particular to go after this one? And I think it's because it's, he's looking for his sheep. So these are his children. Yes. It's not just, I think Christ is out in the world because he will find his children. He will find the one who is. His own. So he is looking for his own sheep. One of his, one of his fold.
So like the sheep I might find in the world is the one that God has been seeking to save, even one of whom knows his name. That's like John 10, right? So one of, I think our problem is understanding this parable has to do with the when of our salvation. You know, we generally think it's at the time that, you know, we believe.
The people are those given to God before the foundation of the world. And God sees us as his people before we were ever born, even before the world began. And when we believe it is just our Lord finding us as his last sheep and we're returned to the fold. So he always goes after that one. So we'll learn more.
Like you said, when we look at Matthew's account about who are those other 90 nines. So we can set that aside, I suppose, for now. But it really is a matter of our status before Adam, before the fall, and then after Adam, after the fall, while all men fell with Adam. So also did God's people, which he had chosen before time began.
And so this idea of going after the one is bringing back into the fold that who is his child though, who he has made a promise, a covenantal promise to bring into the kingdom of heaven. I was thinking as well of this amazing quote and like, what that all means about God's love for us, which again, is just more than like, isn't it nice that when you are out in the world somewhere like God came to find you?
Yeah, that's fantastic. But I think it's even more than that. Like this is where I think we really need to dive into what it means that he's going after his sheep. It's, uh, Thomas Goodwin wrote this once about, uh, Christ's joy. He wrote this, Christ's own joy, comfort, happiness, and glory are increased and enlarged.
By his showing grace and mercy in pardoning relieving and comforting his members here on earth. And what I hear in that is something that I think is wild. In other words, Jesus, I don't think, doesn't just want us to draw on his grace and mercy because it just vindicates atoning work. Because like if Vindicates that he is an act shepherd, his love is active, he's out there in the field, he's going after his own, he's like you said, he's laying them on our on his shoulders and then he comes back and rejoices.
He wants us to draw on his grace and mercy because it is inherently who he is. And he drew near to us in this incarnation so that his joy and ours could rise and fall together, which is insane that God would come and condescend to that degree that in his giving mercy and in ours receiving it, that Goodwin is basically saying here that Christ gets more joy and comfort than we do when we come to him for help and mercy.
That is when he finds us, when he comes and celebrates that there's been restoration, that that celebration is real and that it forgives him and brings him great joy. What kind of love is that?
[00:52:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:52:49] Jesse Schwamb: That that is so dedicated to seeking his children out. That his joy is made greater as it were, in a sense, by him very much doing that, and by us repenting and coming before him, such that Jesus is never tired, flustered, or frustrated when we come to him for fresh forgiveness or for renewed.
Pardon? Or we find ourselves outside of the fold when we're distressed, when we have needs, when we're empty. I think this is the whole point of this parable. He comes to rescue us. He comes to heal over and over and over again because we are his children and he always goes and finds his own sheep.
[00:53:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:53:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, well, as we said, this'll be a, uh, at least two part, probably three or four part episode. Yeah. Um, because it's so good. There's so much here and so good. You know, as we kind of alluded to when we were, we sort of introed this, this parable along with the, in Luke at least, along with the following one, and the one after that really are one set of teaching.
Um, we are gonna jump into, into Matthew and how Matthew positions the parable a little bit differently. And I say that to say Christ positions the parable differently within his teaching. Um, but the variations are important and this is why, this is why God's word is so great, right? Yes. We could have just had like one version of this, one instance that this teaching was delivered, but God saw fit to preserve multiple, multiple applications of this one parable.
And this also tells us that like. The people who wanna say that a parable only has one point. Um, I think maybe like the Bible itself is against you on that because this parable is ba more or less the same in Matthew in terms of the actual words. There's some minor variations, but there nothing substan substantively different in the words, but where it comes in the context of the teaching gives it a very different flavor.
Not a different meaning entirely, but a very different flavor. So I'm excited to, to keep going on this. Um, we'll go through, we'll talk about the coin, we'll talk about the lost son, uh, the lost sons, the para prodigal, God. I mean that one has a thousand different ways to label it. Um, but I'm really stoked about this series so we don't have to spend a lot of time like landing the plane here 'cause we're not even gonna really land the plane.
We're just gonna keep going. So we're cruising at 20,000
[00:55:10] Jesse Schwamb: feet easy.
[00:55:11] Tony Arsenal: So we would love it if you'd join us in our Telegram channel. We mentioned it earlier, but you can go to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, uh, that is just a little corner of the internet that we've sliced out. It's a little chat program that you can run on your phone or in a browser.
Um, lots of different conversations happening at any given point, uh, but all of them are God centered. All of them Mar God glorifying, and it really is just a genuine, friendly place to be. There's not, uh, there's, there's been very little fighting or conflict. There's been almost nobody besides bots that get kicked outta the channel.
Um, it's a very low key, very low chill, low risk environment. Low chill, uh, low chill. It's not low chill. It's high chill, high chill, uber chill. It's the uber chill,
[00:55:53] Jesse Schwamb: uber chill. Um,
[00:55:54] Tony Arsenal: but you can check it out. T Me slash reform brotherhood. We'd love to have you jump in the conversation. Um, you know, find some new food to taste and take a video of it, uh, of yourself.
Or, you know, if you need prayer, there's a, there's a place for that. If you want some memes, there's a place for that. But check it out.
[00:56:10] Jesse Schwamb: Normally, this is where I'd say, here's what we learned in this conversation, but since it's gonna be ongoing instead, I'm just gonna end with a little question for you, Tony.
I'll ask it to you first and then I'll give you my answer and that, and I'll challenge everybody to answer this themselves. I think it'll help shape how we're just thought, think about what we just heard and also the couple weeks ahead. But, um, what's one time that you lost something and were overjoyed that you found it?
So for me, and this I think generally. It's often small things. I remember this time I was going out for a run. My wife was shopping. Now I don't do this anymore, so don't anybody get ideas about this. But I used to, don't do this anymore. I used to take my keys 'cause I didn't wanna run with them, like, you know, banging around in my pants while I was running.
I used to take them and put them under this like, medium-sized rock that was like right outside in the bushes by my, my house. And so I did that. I went for a run and I came back and I saw my wife Sky was here. And so I just went into the house. I guess I just realized I could go in the door, wasn't gonna be locked anymore.
And then of course the next day I went to go to work and like lost my mind. I, I just couldn't remember where the keys were searched everywhere, like tore up everything. Made lots of accusations of myself and everybody else about whether to move the keys. Maybe you've had this experience, maybe it's just me that needs to be more sanctified.
And so I remember when finally like it occurred to me like, oh. If they're outside, I went and grabbed them, you know, you turn over that rock and there they are in all their glory. They've never moved. They were there from the beginning. And I remember this vividly. My wife already like long left for work and I called her and I was like, I found the keys.
I found the keys. I'm so happy. And she was just like, okay. It's just like, are you good now? I was like, yeah. And for her it was like, that's no real news to me. Like, okay, great. Like you lost them. I'm glad that you fought them. But it did exemplify for me that really in the finding of something that joy is made, consummate, incomplete in the rejoicing over it with somebody else.
Yeah.
[00:58:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:58:07] Jesse Schwamb: Um, so let's say you can you think of like a time where like you lost something at big or small and then you were just overjoyed to find it?
[00:58:13] Tony Arsenal: The only thing I can think of, um, we have this little Noah's arc kit, um, for, for the kids. And this was before Adeline, uh, came around. Um, and we lost the little Noah figure.
We couldn't find it for a really, really long time. This is Noah. And, um, this was back when we were living in the parsonage. Augie was, uh, up jumping on the couch and he wanted to put the cushions down onto the floor in order to jump off the couch onto the floor. And when he pulled the cushion back, the little Noah figure was there and I was so excited to find it.
And I was like, Augie, we found Mr. Noah. We found Mr. And the funny part is that. And I know why you're laughing so much. The funny part is that this was also being converted to text to speech somehow, and it got sent out to our entire family group chat. Um, so everybody got a good laugh outta that, but there was, and he was so excited.
Uh, he doesn't even know who Mr. Noah is at this point, but he was excited that we found something. Um, and you know, there, there is also an element too that like sometimes something is lost and it changes the nature of things. Like for sure that Noah's arc kit was no longer Noah's a, it was just some animals on a boat.
That's true. Until we found Mr. Noah and put it all back together. Um, so that's probably the, the example of that comes to mind for me. I'm sure there's a better one floating around in here somewhere, but I, I'm pretty sleep deprived right now, so. May not come to the surface too easily.
[00:59:28] Jesse Schwamb: You, I, I really think it's the smaller things in particular that prove the point.
It's an argument from the lesser to the greater. So in that vein, now it's your turn. So go to t.me back slash reform brotherhood. Hang out in the telegram chat. And I have no doubt this will be part of, uh, this week's discussion from the episode is tell us something that, tell us the story. 'cause you, we know you got one where you lost something that was yours.
It was precious to you, no matter how valuable it was economically speaking, and you found it and you were overjoyed. And I think we got to tap into a little bit of that sensibility as we think about the weeks that are ahead for us.
[01:00:03] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[01:00:04] Jesse Schwamb: But more than anything, I think we gotta remember from our conversation tonight that Christ love.
Is an active working love. Just as the shepherd did not sit still, the wailing is lost sheep and, and we're gonna see the same kind of behavior in the other peril, the parables that follow. So our blessed Lord did not sit still in heaven pitting sinners. He comes to us, he came to us, and he continues to draw to himself those who are sheep, who hear his voice.
Let that be your encouragement this week.
[01:00:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to end the show. So, Jesse, until next week, honor everyone.
[01:00:39] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.
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In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Jesus's parable of the dragnet from Matthew 13:47-50. They examine how this often-overlooked parable reveals profound truths about God's kingdom, final judgment, and the ultimate separation of the righteous from the wicked. The hosts explore the rich Old Testament connections, particularly to Habakkuk, and demonstrate how this parable complements the parable of the wheat and tares while emphasizing the judgment aspect of God's kingdom. Through careful textual analysis and theological reflection, they remind listeners that God's sovereignty extends over both salvation and judgment, challenging believers to live faithfully in light of the coming sorting.
The hosts identify a paradigm-shifting perspective in this parable: the kingdom of Heaven includes not just the blessing of the righteous but also the judgment of the wicked. Tony notes that Christians often think of God's kingdom only in terms of the elect enjoying fellowship with God, but this parable reveals that God's sovereignty and kingship extend to His judgment as well. The dragnet gathers everything in its path - both the "good" and "bad" fish - demonstrating that all people will be brought under Christ's authority for evaluation. This understanding challenges the common notion that hell is somehow outside God's domain. Rather, even the punishment of the wicked falls under God's sovereign reign. This more comprehensive view of God's kingdom reminds believers that God's authority is absolute and extends to every corner of creation and every spiritual reality.
Jesse highlights how the specific term "dragnet" (as translated in the LSB) carries significant theological weight. Unlike a typical fishing net cast from a single location, a dragnet was stretched between two boats and systematically pulled toward shore, catching everything in its path. This imagery powerfully communicates that no one will escape God's judgment - the net catches all kinds of fish indiscriminately. The hosts connect this to Old Testament passages, particularly in Habakkuk, where God's judgment is described as a net that captures entire nations. This emphasis on the comprehensive nature of judgment confronts our culture's belief that individuals might somehow avoid accountability before God. The parable teaches that all people will face judgment, with the difference being not whether they are caught in the net, but how they are categorized once caught. For believers, this underscores the necessity of being found "in Christ" when the sorting occurs.
"Either way, you can't escape the net. This is profound because I think so much of our culture thinks they're gonna escape the net or the nets. They're gonna be able to get outside of the net." - Jesse Schwamb
"Hell is the absence of, is the presence of God absent grace, right? Unmediated... It's God's unmediated, absolute entire wrath poured out on wicked sinners. That's what hell is." - Tony Arsenal
"We gotta sit down at the table, take our time... Have the family style dinner passed around. Talk to everybody and set aside the time... We're taking our time to enjoy and to savor. And I think you and I are always trying to grow in that to some degree. But here again, we have just a lovely excuse to do a little savoring of the scripture." - Jesse Schwamb
[00:00:45] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 470 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:53] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.
[00:00:58] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. How about we start with an incredible understatement. It is a blessing to have the direct teachings of Jesus.
[00:01:09] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes.
It's
[00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: end of episode.
[00:01:11] Tony Arsenal: That's true.
[00:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: We could just stop there.
[00:01:12] Jesse Schwamb: We won't, because we've been hanging out in the parables, which I know sometimes people will say to us, wow, your episodes are so definitive. They're just so good. But they, they, it seems to take so long to go through things and I just wanna address everybody right now and say to you.
We hear you. We love you. But we don't care that much about that critique because
[00:01:33] Tony Arsenal: it's true.
[00:01:34] Jesse Schwamb: I think what you and I have been finding out is going through these parables is like the difference between like scarfer and a burger while you're driving down the highway versus like sitting down at the table to eat and enjoy like a seven course meal with people that you love like that, the latter of those two.
It takes time in preparing and it takes time to enjoy. Yes. So I like the pace we're going at and we're going into what I'm calling the Jesus nothing but net parable. And you know, some of what I think Jesus does here and we're gonna talk about to set all of this up, is he does have this wonderful and incredible ability, like a goldsmith who's like taking a piece of metal and hammering it out, turning it over, hammering it out.
He's fashioning it into a fixed frame of his desired choosing. But it's almost as if he's, he's prompting his listeners to a type of meditation that is the hammering of truth or a point propounded, and we're about to get to that because he's going to bring some judgment and some fire. And this nothing but net parable.
It hearkens back to something he just said, and he has this tendency in his teaching to say something like, and again, the kingdom of heaven is like this. And also, and again, it's like this. And so here we have yet another one, and I think we've done maybe four or five of these. And again, yeah. And so I say to you, love ones, and again, here we go.
It's gonna be great. Yeah. So Jesus coming with heat and with the fire on this episode and we're gonna try to bring it too, but
[00:03:01] Tony Arsenal: yeah. And we're not even out of the first chapter of Parable. No. Like we're still in the first chapter of scripture that we've started and we're like. 10 weeks into this series, so, which is great.
I love it. I'm, I'm
[00:03:12] Jesse Schwamb: all for it. Can't stop. Won't stop.
[00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: So speaking of things we will not stop doing, we will not stop affirming with or deny against certain things. So as is our custom, Tony, I kick it to you. What do you got for us?
[00:03:24] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna cheat a little bit. I'm gonna have a, a, a brief denial and then also an affirmation.
We're gonna old school. The denial is, uh, some people noticed, uh, maybe a couple months back, that occasionally in your podcast feed there would be something that would be like, you might also like, and it would be a random episode of some other podcast.
[00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:03:43] Tony Arsenal: This was an advertising feature that was available to us.
I turned it on to see how it would work. It's generating like a dollar a month. So not, not a big deal, but also pretty passive. People could just skip the episode. Right. Uh, the reason I'm, I'm denying this now, is today I realized, and, and your mother was gracious enough to call me and ask me if I knew this.
I, I had heard it already, but, uh, the, the episode they decided to put in our feed today was somebody interviewing a psychic. So I immediately just to get out in front of it because I'm sure somebody out there is gonna be like, Tony's got psychics on his pod. No, I, I immediately emailed our podcast host 'cause I couldn't figure out how to turn it off and said, shut this off.
Excellent. So there's, there's no way for us to, to like specify we can, we can, um, eliminate certain categories. So I tried to eliminate categories that I thought would have blanket, like blatantly objectionable. Uh, content, you know, other religions, new age spirituality. The show that it was on, I think is like a productivity podcast, but it's one of those productivity podcasts where they kind of interview everyone and, and anyone, and they happen to be interviewing a psychic.
So if that came to your ear holes because of our feed, please accept my sincere apology. Uh, we certainly don't want to be endorsing or, or, uh, or exposing people to that kind of nonsense. So we've turned it off. It was a small amount of revenue, but even if it was a large amount of revenue, we would, I wouldn't tolerate that no matter how much money we were generating.
So if it hasn't left your feed yet, it will soon. It takes a little while for it to kind of update. It won't update until I've published a new episode. So by the time you're hearing this, probably it's disappeared. Um. But thank you for everyone who brought it to our attention. And again, I'm, I'm sorry that it happened enough of that.
[00:05:25] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming. It's a very exciting affirmation. I'm super stoked about it. Jesse and I actually talked a little bit about this before, so a couple, I don't know, it was maybe five, six months ago, Jesse affirmed a book called The Will of the Many, uh, which is a, a book by a guy, uh, named James Islington, I-S-L-I-N-G-T-O-N.
Um, it, it sort of presents itself when you first start reading it as like, almost like Harry Potter in Rome. Like it's like, that sounds about right, right? It's, it's kind of like a guy, like a, he's not like a child like Harry Potter or Percy Jackson. He's, he's, uh, probably like a late, I think late teens probably is, is where you're supposed to see him 15, 16 years old.
Somewhere in there, he gets kind of swept up into. Uh, like an academy, he gets adopted into a, like a prestigious family and he gets swept up into an academy and he's learning about these skills and this sort of like magic system that exists in his world. And there's a mysterious cataclysm that happened and it presents itself very much as like a very typical kind of, um.
Prodigy swept up into a world he doesn't fully understand Harry Potter kind of story. And then literally you read the last chapter, the story resolves, and there's an epilogue. And you realize that the story is entirely different than it, it anything you could have possibly conceived. It was, um, I haven't quite gone back and read the first book a second time, although I probably will.
Um, you tell me, Jesse, there was no, there was, I'm not gonna spoil it because it's part of the fun of getting just knocked on your butt on this. But there was nothing in the book that I could think of that even closely hinted at.
[00:07:05] Jesse Schwamb: No.
[00:07:05] Tony Arsenal: This weird twist at the end.
[00:07:06] Jesse Schwamb: No way.
[00:07:07] Tony Arsenal: Um, so the reason I'm going into all that detail is the, the final or the second book in the series.
I don't know how many are planned. I would assume it's probably three. But the second book in the series, which is called The Strength of the Few, just came out, uh, it came out just a few days ago. It's November 15th when we're, we're, uh, recording this, and it came out on November 11th. Um. If you have not read, uh, will of the many, please just go like, turn off the podcast right now.
Go listen or go read that book or get the audio book. Do it. It's super good. Um, you know, there's, um, it, I won't say that. Like there's nothing objectionable in the book. Um, you know, they have their own version of profanity and stuff that, that isn't the same profanity as ours, but like, it's the same intention as, as what we would say.
Um, but you're not gonna run into, there was no sexual content whatsoever. Even hint to that. Um, I think there was like one kiss in the entire book. Um, there really is, uh, from what I can tell, there really is no genuine romantic through line. Um, there was kind of a, sort of like a childhood infatuation or like a young teen infatuation at this academy, but it was such a small, small plot point and it doesn't sound like it's gonna be coming back around much as a big plot point.
Um. But there was nothing objectionable. Um, the violence is not particularly descriptive. Um, it's a little bit descriptive, but, um, it's pretty tame. It's just really good writing, um, really good writing, super creative, world building. Um, it's one of those things where, um, actually. A lot of books like Harry Potter for example, the character knows almost nothing about this new world that they're coming into.
And so you learn everything along with the, along with this person. This is more like the Farer trilogy or the Farer series where the, the main character actually knows quite a bit about what's going on, but the exposition of it is not like, um, it's not big exposition dumps. It's very organic. And actually there's, he leaves you with a ton of question marks about how this mysterious will system works.
Right? Um, you learn more about it as you go into the second book. So I'm recommending the whole series specifically 'cause the second book came out. I don't know when the third book is gonna come out. I would imagine it'll be a while. Um, there. Relatively long books. It'll take you a little bit of time to get through 'em.
But they're super good, they're super reasonable. Um, and they're, again, there, there's really not anything objectionable, which is hard to find even in like fantasy writing these days. Um, usually you run into some sort of the far series and trilogy as an example, I wrote, got through the first trilogy. I thought it was really good.
I started the second, uh, trilogy and I made it like two chapters in and I, there was all sorts of just unnecessary sexual content, so I just stopped reading it. I haven't found anything in these books that's even close to that. So first book is Will of the many. Second book is Strength of the Few, uh, and it is, uh, called the h or the Hierarchy Trilogy is LinkedIn has some other books that I haven't read.
I would assume they're very good, but I haven't read them yet. But yeah, check it out. It's so good. I can't recommend it enough. At least so far I haven't finished the second book, but it's, they're, they're just really good fun writing. It's not quite young adult fantasy fiction, so Right. It takes a little bit of work, um, to get through it.
Although it's not difficult reading. It just is not, um, you know, this isn't the per Percy Jackson series where you're gonna read four or five chapters in a sitting. Like, you're probably gonna read one chapter or two chapters a day and, and sort of, that's gonna be the pace you're probably go at unless you have like the week off work or something.
[00:10:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's incredibly clever in its storytelling. Even the title doesn't give anything away. You'll get a sense of what it means almost immediately, and yet you will not comprehend the fullness of what it means until really the whole thing is over. It keeps you guessing. The characters are fun, they're deep, they're interesting.
The dialogue is clever, but mostly I was impressed with like the world building. It does follow that kinda familiar, magical school type trope, but not in a way that's too tired. So. If you want more evidence that it is actually good on Good Reads, it has 28,000 reviews and a score of 4.6. Yeah. Now, if you're keeping track at home, I know some of you loved ones are, you should know that the highest rated book on Good Reads is over 10,000 ratings is Words of Ratings by Brandon Sanderson.
And that comes in at 4.76. So this thing is not far behind that. It's almost universally adored for its creativity. Yeah. It's just entertaining value and how unique it is. So I'm with you. I didn't expect to get as into it as I did. This is one of those that caught me by surprise. And so I was like, oh, I am, I'm definitely down for this.
So I'm behind you. I gotta get my hands on the next copy I can, I can get and get reading.
[00:11:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. It, it's um, it's a lot of classic fantasy fiction style. Sort of science, fantasy fiction style, um, tropes, but they're, they're remixed and sort of like synthesized together in a way that's very organic and genuine
[00:12:00] Jesse Schwamb: for sure.
[00:12:00] Tony Arsenal: There's a little bit of hunger games, there's a lot of, a lot of Harry Potter, you know, magical Academy. Um, there's a lot of just sort of good fantasy fiction, almost like Dragon Lance, kind of like world building. Um, what I, what I really love about a good fantasy fiction book is when you can tell the world is bigger than what's going on right in front of you.
Right. But you, but they, he doesn't need to tell you about all of it.
Right? Right.
Like, you can tell there's stuff going on and you hear about it, you read about it in the book, but it's, there's things going on in the rest of the world, um, that may or may not come into play later. But yeah, it's, it keeps you guessing.
Um, and, and again, the only thing that I maybe would've changed slightly about the first book is I would've loved. I when there's a really good twist at the end of the book, one of my favorite things is to go back and, and think about like, what did I miss that brought me here? And I'm not sure there's anything in the original part of the book, um, in the, the main body of the book that actually points you towards the twist.
Right? It's like genuinely a totally new. And I think that's on purpose. Um, I, again, I'm, I'm trying really hard not to give away spoilers 'cause I think that
it's
[00:13:10] Tony Arsenal: so tough. I think that our audience actually is really, is, is the kind of audience that would really like this. Okay. Uh, even to the point that like the, the first book is really grounded in sort of this like mythical Roman Romanesque latinized culture.
Um, it's not supposed to be like ancient Rome. It's not, I don't think it is. I mean, I guess we could find out later on that this is supposed to be some future. You know, cataclysm has reduced the culture back, you know, thousands of years. It could find that out. I don't think we're going to, but, um. The culture is based on, on like ancient roaming culture.
So there's actually a lot of like stoicism principles built into it that I've found that I think are really useful. Um, I've already highlighted you. I can tell when I'm reading a good fiction book if I really like it when I'm highlighting phrases in it, right? Because the writing is not good, and they're sort of a philosophical undercurrent that I, I'm really digging.
So check it out again. James Islington is the author, uh, will of the Many is the first book. Strength of the Few is the, the second book. I don't know what the third book's gonna be called. I'm sure he knows what it's gonna be called. The Lord knows what it's gonna be called, but I'm sure that will be recommending that book when it comes out as well.
[00:14:17] Jesse Schwamb: For sure, man, this whole sound, this whole intro sounded like we should just do an offshoot, which is like the reform book cast. That was, that was such a strong advertisement for that book, including like, you're going back to the titling again. I just wanna, I just wanna affirm you in that, that was very commendable.
That was like a solid podcasting right there.
[00:14:33] Tony Arsenal: We should actually do, I don't know how we would do that with a fiction book this long. We should do some book, book club casts on I agree. This series once it's all out, because there's a lot to chew on in this. Yes. In this story. Okay. There's a lot of moral questions.
There's a, I, I don't know if there's anything in the book that would be explicitly theological, like they're not drawing from those kinds of principles. Um, you know, I guess there's. Mention of Gods. So I think there probably are theological undercurrents, but that's not really part of it. It's, it's kind of like the ancient Roman culture where like nobody really believes that the gods existed.
Yeah.
[00:15:08] Jesse Schwamb: It's nominal.
[00:15:09] Tony Arsenal: Um, yeah. But there's lots of philosophical undercurrents and things to chew on in these books that would be fun for us to, to talk through and work through a little bit.
[00:15:17] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. I we gotta put it on the calendar.
[00:15:20] Tony Arsenal: Let's make it
[00:15:20] Jesse Schwamb: happen. And
[00:15:21] Tony Arsenal: you know what else you could do? If you happen to be reading this book and you'd like to talk about it now and you don't wanna wait.
Oh, that's
[00:15:26] Jesse Schwamb: so good.
[00:15:26] Tony Arsenal: You don't wanna wait until, you know, 2029 when we get around to the next series. Um, you can join the Telegram chat, you can go to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, uh, and that will bring you to our little corner of the internet that we've carved out. Uh, it's an open channel so you can jump in and read what's going on.
Uh, it really is, I think, one of the friendliest, most charitable kind places you're gonna find on that sort of the Christian internet. It's really sad that we have to talk about the charitable part of Christian internet versus like the rest of the Christian Internet. Uh, but that's the way it is. It's funny.
Uh, I got a Facebook message. I I have Facebook Messenger on my phone 'cause there's a few people that I keep in touch with on Facebook. Messenger that I don't have any other contact with. And I got a message on our Reform Brotherhood Facebook Messenger channel, which we haven't used in ages. Whoa. Someone who stumbled upon the podcast and started listening from the first episode, I think they were on like episode 1 68 when they messaged me.
Wow. And I said, well, you're not gonna hear about this for quite a while, but you should join the Telegram chat. So I think, I think he jumped in there. Um, that's great. So yeah, jump in there, chat about this, chat about so else and everybody. Um, I mean, there's, there's been discussions about other fiction books, um, that have come up the same bright, the, um, Sanderson series has come up.
Yes. Um, people like talk about the, the stuff they're reading. So that would be really fun if you wanted to jump in and, and chat through this. No spoilers though. This is the kind of book where like you really. Being blindsided by the, the twist at the end was part of that was really like delightful. So I don't wanna spoil it for anybody.
[00:16:55] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. Yeah. You, you definitely wanna experience it in this way. Trust me.
[00:16:59] Tony Arsenal: Yeah,
[00:16:59] Jesse Schwamb: it is, it is good. We can't say anything more about it because either we'll give it away if we just keep talking. Or we're just gonna continue to gush over how genius the whole thing has put together. It's worth your time.
It's true.
[00:17:09] Tony Arsenal: Jesse, save us. What are you affirming or denying today?
[00:17:11] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, a book. And this sounds like I'm about to pull like a Jesus juke, but that's not my intention at all Here. I'm affirming with a Bible translation just because I've, I've gone back to this one for a while as we've been looking at the parables, and I find it delightful.
So I'm coming with a strong, strong affirmation for the scriptures. And if you're looking for maybe another translation to add into the mix, into the piety, I would suggest going with the Legacy standard Bible. And if you're not familiar with that, with what that is, so imagine if two twin translations, the New American Standard Bible and the Legacy standard Bible, the LSB, so the older twin, like the NASB, he's like the kind of guy who irons his socks.
You know, he is, he's very literal. He's proper speaks like someone who proofreads street signs for fun. He's been doing this for a long time, and because of that, he's really beloved, because he carefully sticks to an exacting word definition and translation of the original text. But sometimes if you've, if you've hung out with NISB for a little while, sometimes he's so formal that you can feel like he's reading a grocery list in like Old Testament Hebrew cadence.
So enter then relatively new, but the younger twin LSB shows up and he's basically like, listen, I, I love my older brother. I wanna do everything he does, but I'm going to double down on making even more exact, which I know sounds crazy given what I just said about the Hebrew cadence. But hear me out. So if the N-N-A-S-B says something, you know, if the NF when the NSB translates like Lord.
For Yahweh, it's like the capitalized LORD and the Ls, LSB, which I appreciate is like, nah, we're just gonna use Yahweh, you know? And the NSB says, listen, we'll use slave only when it's needed. And the Ls, LSB is like, if the Greek says Doos. I'm saying slave and you can't stop me. You know? And the NASB sometimes it does, I think avoid startling you and the LSB is like, listen, if the original text startles you Good.
So I've just been enjoying as we go through the parables, and we'll get to this a little bit tonight, some of that like particular language, some of that, like the vibe that's happening here. I mean, the LSB is is basically like the NASB turned up to 11. It's stricter, it's nerdier, it's even a little bit more literal and it's proudly flexing every time.
It preserves its original language nuance and there is, I think a place for that. The strange thing about it though, I'd say with all that. Being enumerated is that I do think sometimes it reads a little easier than the NAB. All these translations have their of their place, but I would say it's definitely worth adding into the mix.
You're gonna get some lovely and different perspective by going through and taking a look at, at what the l SB has to say. And we're gonna get a little bit of that tonight so you can, I forget who publishes it. Do you remember off the top of your head?
[00:20:02] Tony Arsenal: I think it's the same. Well, MacArthur's group was really instrumental behind it.
I don't remember. Yes. I don't remember the name of it. The name of the organization. That's
[00:20:10] Jesse Schwamb: steadfast. Is it? Well, it doesn't matter. It
[00:20:11] Tony Arsenal: might be, yeah, it might
[00:20:12] Jesse Schwamb: be. I think it might be steadfast. Yes, that is true. If, if, I don't think it should be put up by this by any means. MacArthur actually is a study bible in.
In the l SB translation, he was a particular fan of it. And, uh, so pick that up. If, if you want it, that's your prerogative. Of course. Well, I think any version of it is pretty good. The psalms are particularly good in it, but I do love that you're gonna get all the, the normal, like peace wise stuff with the NASB, where like all the quotations from the different parts of scripture will be in small caps.
There's a lot of like little fun things that draw, like italicized words will alert you to the fact that that word is not actually in the Greek of the Hebrew, but is merely there for the English equivalent. And then you're gonna get yes, the proper name for God in every place, and you're gonna get a lot more detail.
So again, I like to think of these things as like the, the, it's like the LSB is like the NASB, but with a personal trainer or grammar coach and unlimited black coffee. So it's just different and yeah, by kind of doubling down on trying to get like a firm little grasp of what the original texts say.
[00:21:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
Yeah. Little, uh, little Bible translation, lesson tutorial, I guess. Um. I never knew this even through like seminary, I never really caught onto this, but, um, when you see different. The way that English translations are named often tell you a lot about the history of the translation,
[00:21:33] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:21:33] Tony Arsenal: So we have things like the English standard version, the new international version, or the, the NIV or the uh, legacy Standard Bible.
When you see something like Standard Bible, if you, if you look, there's a number of translations that end in standard Bible. There's the New American Standard Bible, there's the Christian Standard Bible, right? There's the Holman Broadman, Christian Standard Bible. There's now the Legacy Standard Bible. All of those, all of those translations that end in standard Bible, they all are sort of like within the same, I dunno, genetic heritage of they all trace back to, I don't, I don't know what it is for the, for the standard Bible series, but they all trace back to a singular English text, right?
And so when you come out with a new translation, it's very rare that a brand new translation of the Bible is entirely from the Greek. So. The English standard version was a, was a updated version or a, a slightly different translation philosophy from the new revised or the NRSV, the new revised standard version, which was a slightly updated version of the revised standard version, which was an updated version of the authorized standard version, which was the King James version.
Right. So that's right. So when you look at the English standard version, it comes in a lineage that actually goes back to the King James version, the NASB, I don't know exactly where it goes back to, um, but it goes back to a different translation philosophy and a different sort of base English text.
That's where you find a lot of the interesting things like textual features, like certain italicized words tell you something. The LSB really is kind of the English standard version of that, of that, uh, line of Bibles Enus. Yeah. So it's, it's kind of the most modern version of the standard Bible series.
Um. If you look at the CSB and the LSB, there's very, very little differences. They're very similar. And it, it's funny too, because the CSB was originally developed by the Southern Baptist Convention because they wanted to use an updated version, but they didn't want to pay royalties on the English standard version.
So they developed, and that's fine. Like that's, that's a little quirk of history. It's not a, there's no judgment or commentary whatsoever in there. Um, but they, they selected a Bible translation and then they updated it in order to, um, have their own version of the Bible that, um, was there. So all of that to say that LSB is a great translation.
Um, it's funny you are super jazzed up about translating as Yahweh. That's my version of my body was broken for you. Like that's my version of it. I translating the, the divine name as Yahweh in English, uh, that triggers me a little bit. We can talk about that sometime, but, um. Yeah, so I'm not a huge fan of that, that feature, but, um, but yeah, it's, it's a great translation.
I've done the LSB, um, in the past for my year through the Bible reading. Great. So I've read the entire thing. It's great and it's, it's a great translation. Um, like I said, it really feels like the l like the English standard version, um, you're reading a different base text, but the translation philosophy is very similar.
Um, it's not quite formal equivalence, which is what the ESV is. It's much closer to a literal translation. Um, so I wouldn't try to put them on a spectrum, but, um, they're very similar. If you're comfortable reading the ESV and you're just looking for something a little bit different, um, then the LSB is gonna feel very, very familiar and very much at home.
It's gonna be a very similar, um, cadence and reading and, and even structure of the text is very similar.
[00:25:04] Jesse Schwamb: And it just so turns out that we can put a little bit of that difference in the practice right now because if we go and find ourselves in Matthew chapter 13, beginning of verse 47, we've got yet again.
Another incredible teaching from Jesus about what the Kingdom of Heaven is like. And Tony, as you've been saying before, as we've been discussing this, I want to give everybody that great perspective off the top right from the jump of this. As you hear this, listen for the nouns and the verbs, the kingdom of Heaven is like, don't just go to the first thing that happens there, but the whole encapsulation of what we're gonna be told.
And the reason why I brought up the lsb is because I think it gives us a little bit of a true different perspective. And to just start out some of that comparison, if you were to go to your, just your standard. ESV version. Now again, the headings, the scripture break, the, all of that stuff is we know something that is not divinely inspired.
It is interesting though, how different translators and commentators have tried to sort out or provide some of that encapsulation of the topic at hand by inserting these little titles or subtitles in the ESV. This section is called the parable of the net. Now, interestingly, and I think this is gonna be something fun for us to talk about, just generally, is that in the LSB it just says a dragnet.
So what's interesting here is we're getting something more specific than just net. So let me, let me read, I'll read you to everybody from not read you. We'll save that for the horrible rec psychic recommendations that we do not condone. Let me, let me read to everyone from Matthew chapter 13, a dragnet or the parable of the nets.
This is Jesus speaking, and again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea and gathering fish of every kind. And when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach and they sat down and gathered the good fish in the containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age, the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous and will throw them into the fiery furnace.
In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[00:27:08] Tony Arsenal: It's, uh, it's a pretty stark parable and it should feel super familiar, right? Because this is not, um, this is not the first time in this chapter that we've heard basically the same parable,
right?
Um, this is is almost identical in terms of the meaning and the structure and even the like order of things, um, to the parable of the wheat and the tears.
So again, we see Jesus, um, and. Jesus is teaching this, but we see Matthew also arranging this in specific ways that highlights sort of this inner weaving interlocking function in chapter 13, where parables that are similar are sometimes right next to each other. We saw that last week. There's the parable of the pearl, the parable of the treasure in the field, um, that are immediately next to each other and mean basically the same thing.
Now we have the parable of the wheat and the TAs and the parable of the dragnets that are separated by quite a bit, but they mean basically the same thing. So it's interesting to see this different arrangement in how it works, but this is a, this is another example of kind of an eschatological parable, right?
That teaches us not just about, um, the kingdom of Heaven as it was sort of like present in Christ Day. There are some parables that are focusing more on like what the Kingdom of Heaven is like for us right now. And then there are some parables that are sort of focused on what the Kingdom of Heaven is like in its kind of eschatological fulfillment.
This is one of those s.
[00:28:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's good. That's actually something I wanted to hit on right away because I thought let's define it at the end and then kind of go back into all the other lovely details. This is heavy, heavy judgment. Yeah, and you're right, of course, it plays right along the. Side the parable of the TAs and the wheat.
What's interesting though, in terms of its distinction is whereas I think the parable of the wheat and the TAs focuses like we talked about on that intervening time between Jesus' inauguration of the kingdom and the end of the age during which both he and the devil are at work in the world leading up to that final judgment, the focus on this parable is just on the future judgment itself.
It's being very, very clear about that judge. It's all judgment. It's all like, here is the end of the age. And so whereas like the parable again of like the wheat and the tears includes the destruction of the wicked, but lays like less stress, I would say upon like the end way in which the righteous will shine forth as the son of the kingdom of their father.
It's emphasizing this promise of a glorious future for our believers and the parable, this dragnet or the parable of the net or the. Nothing but net places like this emphasis upon like the destruction of the wicked. So again, for anybody who would say that Jesus is not teaching this directly and it's really not sugarcoated because he gives the explanation in the parable itself, which is almost a little bit unusual as well.
It's oftentimes he gives one and then the other often separated in like geography or time or space or location. Yeah. But here they, it's just, it's as if Jesus is saying, just in case this wasn't abundantly clear, I am talking about the eschatological fulfillment of my kingdom. And that in that eschatological fulfillment, the wicked will be punished.
[00:30:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that this parable, um, highlights for me, and this is, this is one of those like working it out in real time. So, so bear with me a little bit. I think sometimes we think of, um. Ooh, I gotta be careful how I say this. I think sometimes because of the way we, um, make appropriately make a firm distinction between law and gospel, and we are very careful to keep the law out of the gospel and the gospel out of the law, we lose sight of the fact that the two are interrelated with each other for sure.
Right. So the law is not, the gospel of the gospel is not the law, but the gospel is also not the gospel without the law, if that makes sense. Um, you have to have the law and understand the law in order to really truly understand the gospel. That's why we, we always wanna preach both the law and the gospel.
This parable is, is, uh, a little bit paradigm shifting because when we think of the kingdom of heaven and the, the, to be fair, the parable of the wheat and the tear should have done this for us too. And, and I'm not sure exactly why it didn't, and maybe that's part of why this parable iss here is to sort of help to make sure we're oriented properly.
[00:31:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right on.
[00:31:21] Tony Arsenal: The Kingdom of Heaven in this parable includes the judgment of the wicked. And I think that's something we don't often, we don't often connect and think about. We think in the kingdom of Heaven as God and his elect. When we think of the kingdom of heaven eschatological, we, uh, we think about, um, the, the righteous enjoying fellowship with God forever on the new Earth.
And, you know, heaven comes down to earth and the two be sort of become one in the, the, you know, wedding feast of the Lamb. Um, I didn't mean to make that connection, but I guess it's there in scripture too. Yeah.
[00:31:54] Jesse Schwamb: Um,
[00:31:55] Tony Arsenal: the, the fact of the matter is, um, at least as far as I'm reading this parable. Hell is not outside the kingdom of heaven in, in the view of this parable.
Right? That's right. We wanna be careful to distinguish the two. It's not like hell is some cordon off part of God's kingdom or something like that. But the kingdom of heaven, and, and maybe we should think of this more as like the kingship of God. The domain and reign of Christ involves his reign over the punishment of the wicked.
Right?
[00:32:25] Tony Arsenal: So in this case, the kingdom of heaven is not the good fish that are put into good containers, but it is also the bad fish that are thrown away at the end, the throwing away of the bad fish, which is equated to the throwing of the wicked into the fiery furnace, into the place where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth that falls under the authority and the rain and the kingship of Jesus Christ in his kingdom in the last days.
[00:32:50] Jesse Schwamb: Amen.
[00:32:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, we cannot lose sight of that. And I, I think we often do. Um, that's, that's maybe why I'm harping on it so much is I think it's very easy for us to think of God's kingdom as just. Just the righteousness, just the reward.
[00:33:03] Tony Arsenal: But, um, there's a very real element in this parable that it's, it's also pointing to God's sovereignty and his, I think sometimes too, like there's this, um, I understand why people say it this way, and I, I think there's a certain way we can talk about it that it's not inaccurate.
But when people, about people talk about hell being the absence of God,
[00:33:23] Jesse Schwamb: I I knew you were gonna
[00:33:24] Tony Arsenal: say that.
[00:33:24] Jesse Schwamb: Um,
[00:33:25] Tony Arsenal: it, it's not right. Right. Hell is the absence of, is the presence of God absent grace, right?
[00:33:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:33:31] Tony Arsenal: Unmediated, um, right. It's, it's God's unmediated, absolute entire wrath poured out on wicked sinners.
That's what hell is. That's
[00:33:39] Jesse Schwamb: right.
[00:33:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, so we, we can't lose sight of that because if we do, we're missing an aspect of what God is doing and who he is. Right. He prepared vessels for wrath. That's part of God's will. And it feels a little uncomfortable to talk about that sometimes. Um, but the Bible talks about it.
We shouldn't shy away from it. And this, this parable right here is, is all over it.
[00:33:57] Jesse Schwamb: Okay, you're stealing like everything I wanted to say, but I'm glad you said that because now I can say something else. So I, this is where you led me right back into the net versus dragnet thing because I think actually all of those details are really meant to lead us exactly to that final conclusion.
Not just that like hell itself is under the purview of God, but there's like an active rule in reign even there.
[00:34:19] Tony Arsenal: Yes.
[00:34:19] Jesse Schwamb: Over all that's happening. So you're, yes, absolutely. You're of course a hundred percent correct. That is the kingdom. It's, it's not just blessing and benefits and rainbows, it's also the fulfillment of all of the other contrary promises that outside of God's mediated favor and love toward us in Christ that still occur again, his wrath is still his to, to met out and it's his to basically have again, like purview over.
So here's why I think, and this is where the Lsb kind of clued me in that the dragnet might be actually. Important in our understanding of this and why he uses that in particular? This is my theory at least, and I don't think I'm alone in this of course. So I've come to learn that when I thought, when I think about like nets, I have like a really western modern view of nets.
I'm not sure until I start to really think about actually meditate on this parable, what I thought the net was and what they were doing with it. But I think it was like, I was thinking they were just like casting it, like you just like kind of throwing it out of the boats and it would sit in the water and and kind of sink down and then they would just kind of arbitrarily haul it up.
And in that hall they would gather whoever happened to be like within the confines of the net. And I think that's very inaccurate perspective. So evidently dragnet in particular as like the name commonly implies here. Certainly this was, I guess, a technique that was very common on the Sea of Galilee and apparently like the details that the actual like taxonomy of the net itself was such that you're talking about a net, usually spend it between two boats, where at the top of it there might be something that help to float up like a cork and there'd be weights at the bottom and it would be stretched or laid out.
Usually, again, between two boats and then pulled to shore by ropes so that everything in its path would be caught as it's pulled. And so this is brilliant because I think Jesus is no doubt using this as a metaphor for this kind of judgment because it captures clearly the idea of gathering every kind of fish.
Other words, you cannot escape the net. The kingdom of God is the net and the sorting comes later. But that being brought up, like you're saying, Tony brought up into that kingdom, whether for like eternal blessing and, and you know, commendation or eternal punishment and suffering. Either way, you can't escape the net.
This is profound because I think so much of our culture thinks they're gonna escape the net or the nets. They're gonna be able to get outside of the net. So he goes on then of course, to be able to describe like these good and bad kinds of fish. But I think it's worth stopping. Just connecting what you just said.
This idea that all of this, all of this is the judgment of God and all of it is the kingdom of God and the net by coming forward and catching everything that is within its confines, like nothing gets out, is exactly the brilliant kind of metaphor that emphasizes the point you were just making.
[00:37:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:37:06] Tony Arsenal: And you know, um, when we talked about the parable of the wheat and the tears, we sort of circled around a little bit and.
I don't know that I have a great answer for it, but I think maybe I have a little bit more clarity on it. We circled around the fact that when people employ and use the parable of the wheat and the tars, they often sort of say like, well, the field is the church. And so there's people in the church that are saved.
There's, or elect, there are people in the church that are not, and we can't really know the difference. And that's true, but in the parable, when Christ explains it, he says, the field is the world.
[00:37:39] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:37:39] Tony Arsenal: And I think this, this parable actually helps us to understand the reason why he says that, right? When he's talking about the parable of the wheat and the terras, it ends in the same place, even though the focus is different, right?
It's focused on sort of the here and the now. And we, we landed very hard on like, part of what we're being taught in that parable is like, know, your, know your role. It's not judgment. Like you're not the one that is supposed to be pulling up the wheat out, you know, trying to find the tears and rooting 'em out and stuff.
But the fact that the field is the world and that the good and the bad grow up together within it is parallel here to the fact that the net is all encompassing, right? So the kingdom of heaven is like a field where there was wheat and tears sewn together, and the field is the world. The kingdom of heaven is like a net that gathers every kind of fish.
It gathers all of them together. All of the fish are in the net together. It's all encompassing. Every single thing is covered. It's really the same parable with a different emphasis and a different picture. But it's, it is this all encompassing picture where it's not a matter of like, God is just scooping.
Right? Again, like I, I keep on coming back to this and I, I had never run into this in these parables before. This is part of why I love this series is because we're really digesting them. Um.
[00:38:57] Tony Arsenal: The dispensational understanding of the rapture is that God takes all the good people or all of the, all of the believers out of the world.
But in, in these two parables, like in this one, everybody's raptured. Everybody's, everybody's scooped up, right? And they're sorted out after that. In the field, the wheat and the tears, it's the, the tears that are taken first, they're the ones that are pulled up first. Um, this idea that, um, that there's this great sorting that happens before the end.
It doesn't seem to comport with scripture. None of, none of what Christ teaches that I see about the final judgment of things has the believers separated out except at the final judgment. Right? Right. We're gonna, I don't, I don't know if it's classified as a parable, so we may not talk about it, but, but the, the sheep and the goats, right?
The sheep and the goats are together until they're separated and it's not as though they're separated then, then later on, there's another separation, though. The separation is the final judgment in this case, the sorting of, of the fish into the good containers and the throwing away of the bad. That's all one act, right?
It's not like you sort all of the good into one container and then you throw away all the bad. If you think about how this process works, I used to watch, um, like deadliest catch. Did you ever watch that with the
[00:40:12] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:40:12] Tony Arsenal: The crab fishermen?
[00:40:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah,
[00:40:13] Tony Arsenal: for sure. Right. This is what's going on, right? They, they pull up the crabs, they dump 'em all out on the deck.
They start sorting through them and the ones that are too small or are deformed or aren't crabs, right, they pull up all sorts of other stuff. It's not like they're waiting to throw those back into the ocean until they're all done. They look at one, they put it in a good box, they look at the next one.
It's bad. They throw it back in the ocean. This is the final judgment. This is the final culmination of things, and this parable is showing us that like all of that happens kind of in one movement. The the net drags everything up when they get it ashore. Right. They sit down and they sort it, and the the good is kept and the bad is thrown into, you know, bad.
In this case, in the parable, probably like back into the ocean or just to the side or wherever it might be. In, in the reality and the explanation here, the evil ones are thrown into the fiery furnace. While the good are, presumably it doesn't really talk about the good. That's the other feature of this.
Like there's no statement of what's happening to the good,
[00:41:12] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:41:13] Tony Arsenal: What's happening to the righteous. It's just assumed that they're being brought into the kingdom of heaven. Um, but the angels will come out, they will separate the evil from righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. This is really, really a parable focusing on the judgment of the wicked.
Yes. Where I do think the parable of the wheat and the tears would, you know, in its eschatological elements really was more focused on the, the destiny of the righteous with sort of like the destiny of the wicked being a a, a corollary. This one is just really focusing on what judgment in the kingdom of God looks like.
[00:41:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right, and I think that would've floored the original hearers. Don't you think this, they're hearing this, there's two things at least I think that really would've like just been shocking to hear. I actually, one of them is this idea of the net because I don't think if I try to understand it in the more of the kind of grand historical and biblical context that Jesus was bearing the lead on this.
Yeah.
[00:42:03] Jesse Schwamb: This idea of the net being a symbol of judgment of God is very well known and very prolific throughout the Old Testament, and I got a couple. Passages here I wanna throw out for us to consider that. The second thing is, there is something about this sorting of the fish, which sounds very much like, uh, essentially, you know, the, the laws of what is clean and unclean that God gives to his people in Deuteronomy.
But first, going back to your point, it is all judgment. There is judgment for all. So the Christian itself as well,
[00:42:29] Tony Arsenal: right?
[00:42:29] Jesse Schwamb: But of course, we're co covered in Christ with that imputed glorious alien righteousness. So all that judgment has been paid forward that you know, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought, my sin not in part with the whole is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more.
Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord on my soul. All of that is true. That is the claim of the Christian. But you're right here, the emphasis is certainly on this judgment and again, wrapped up in this idea of net. So I think just hearing that would've floored them. And here's why I say that. So this is from Ezekiel chapter 32, just verses one through three.
In the 12th year. In the 12th month, on the first day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me. Son of man, raise a lamentation. Over Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and say to him, you consider yourself a lion of the nations, but you are like a dragon in the seas. You burst forth in your rivers, trouble the waters with your feet and foul their rivers.
Thus says the Lord God. I will throw my net over you with a host of many peoples and they will haul you up in my dragnet. This is from Habakkuk chapter one, verses 14 through 17. You make mankind like the fish of the sea, like crawling things that have no ruler. He brings all of them up with a hook. He drags them out with his net.
He gathers them in his dragnet, so he rejoices and his glad. Therefore, he sacrifices to his net and makes offerings to his dragnet for by them. He lives in luxury and his food is rich. Is he then to keep on emptying his net and mercilessly killing nations forever? So there's all of this rich like contextual.
Context for I think what they're hearing. And then to have that pair immediately. I think what is shocking, like you're saying, is here's Jesus. He's been expounding and the kingdom, my heaven is like this. We just talked about the kingdom. My heaven is like these amazing treasures, like this pearl of great price and value, like these things of great blessing and worth and something to give up all that you have for to gain everything else which you could not have accomplished on your own.
And then he says, and another thing, the kingdom of heaven is like, it's like this judgment. It's like the judgment of the Old Testament. It's like the judgment of the net that God had typically reserved for the his own enemies. And now he's saying in the end, like you're saying, everybody will be pulled up and then comes the sorting.
[00:44:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and, and now you're stealing where I was gonna go 'cause I have a cook up on my, up on my screen. Yeah. I mean, I think that the hearers of this parable would have immediately thought of, I think Habakkuk would've been the place they thought of, right? The, the final, uh, the final judgment of the people of Israel prior to the, you know, prior to the exile.
Right. Um, or, or I suppose this is the exile itself, but you, you can sort of think of the. People of like it, the ancient, uh, nation of Israel. You can sort of think of them in a couple different phases, right? There's like the, there's like the United Kingdom under David and Solomon. There's the divided Kingdom, um, through most of its Old Testament history.
And then there's uh, there's the return to exiles that come after that. The last judgment of the people of, of Israel, right? And this is just Judah. 'cause Israel's already gone. The last judgment of the people of Judah. The two remaining tribes is, is described by Habakkuk as. A dragnet, right? It's, it's Babylon.
It's the Chaldeans, uh, sweeping up everything. Right? And that metaphor, in that metaphor in Habakkuk, um, it uses three different me fishing metaphors.
[00:45:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:45:55] Tony Arsenal: Right. There's a fishing hook, which is very specific. That's right. You, you catch one fish with a hook,
[00:46:00] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:46:00] Tony Arsenal: Uh, there's a diff there's one kind of net, which is, uh, probably like this.
When, when you think of like fishing in North America, when you use a net, it's, you've already hooked them and you're using the net to kind of pull them outta the water. And then there is this dragnet and there's this all encompassing element of this dragnet in Habakkuk that represents the final total judgment of God's people in that phase of their existence.
Right? They come back from exile and there are very different people. Their religion is different, their culture and society is different. They have to rebuild the temple. They have a different temple. Um, even the way that the, the. Priesthood works is different. Um, not, not that it's entirely different, but it's definitely not exactly the same.
So there really is like a firm, um, seismic shift in the religion of the Old Testament that happens at the exile. Everything changes for them for many years. There is no temple. That's the judgment of that Habakkuk is describing. Right. That's the judgment that he was so aghast at that he was like, God, what are you doing like this?
Yes, exactly. The disease or the cure is worse than disease here. Right, right. Um, and then Christ is intentionally using that language. Um, that's not to say there aren't other, you know, you, you referenced a couple, there are other, um, judgment statements in the Old Testament that are Annette, but I, I think Habakkuk is the primary one, if not the only one that I can think of where it's applied to God's people.
[00:47:24] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:47:24] Tony Arsenal: Right. The net judgment in, in other places is often applied to God's enemies, but this is God's people and in this case, the judgment is. Obviously it's not on God's people. God's people face judgment, but come through it. The judgment here is not a judgment that, that people come through. So it's not, we're not referring to God's people in this judgment, in the parable.
Um, the, the but the net sweeps them up too.
[00:47:49] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly
[00:47:50] Tony Arsenal: right. It's a universal, um, all encompassing judgment. All people are swept up in it. Um, and in the Old Testament in, in Habakkuk, the remnant that Habakkuk points to, right? He's, he's, he is, uh, confident that there are those who are faithful to Jesus or faithful to God, faithful to Jesus.
He, he, you know, I think the, the prophets knew more than we give them credit for,
[00:48:13] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:48:13] Tony Arsenal: Um, the people who are faithful were still swept up in the judgment. They were still swept up in the, the nets of the chaldeans for the most part. Um, so I think there's a lot to it. There's a lot to this parable. Um, we are just scratching the surface.
I mean, and this is a short parable. This is why these, this parable series is first of all why it's gonna be like 19 years long. Um, but why it's so. Encouraging to me, and why I'm so excited about it is we really are, I really, I'll speak for myself. I hope that this is the listener's experience, and I hope this is your experience too, Jesse, but I am, I am coming to these texts and I don't think I'm finding anything new, but I'm seeing things that I haven't seen before.
I don't think they're new as in, like, no one in the history of the world has ever conducted Haku with this parable, but I, I've never thought of that before. I've read Habakkuk a bunch of times. I've read this parable a bunch of times. I never made that connection. I, um, I preached through Habakkuk, uh, a year and a half ago.
I did all four chapters over the course of a month. Uh, and I, in all my commentary, preparation, I never made this connection. Like it never came up in my mind that these two things were connected. But taking time to work through these parables of Christ and really think about and digest, his teaching has been so good for my soul.
[00:49:25] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. And of course it leads us, I think, into just these deeper waters of the brilliancy of our Lord and Savior's teaching that in just the course of a few short words, he's taken something that wasn't just like familiar, but had a full robust context. And I can imagine even with what they understood about Habakkuk, and again that passage ending with is, is he then going to keep on emptying his net and mercilessly killing the nations forever?
I mean, think about that plea, like just exemplifying the great power and providence and superintendent control that God has over everything, these nations and these peoples. And I can imagine the people saying, you know what? He's saying this to them saying like, who? Who are you talking to right now? It's us.
Like who you're talking to, you just said like the kingdom of God is, is for those who are willing to forsake all things and uncover this great and deep treasure and now you're coming in with all this judgment. And that's why I think it, it ending with this separation kind of coming back to where we started, which was at the very end, would've also been somewhat shocking or scandalous because it's very interesting to me that Jesus is essentially, I think drawing back to like Deuteronomy.
14 when it would've been common for these fishermen to go through. And just like in the, the beautiful practicality of this, like you commit to on this while you're working because it is directly connected to the work of the day, which was fishing. And people would more familiar with it than I am. And so when he says something like, you know, the good.
Fish are gonna be separated, put into containers in, in the bad, thrown out or thrown away, that I would imagine harken right back for them to Deuteronomy 14, where they're given the explicit command that, you know, you can eat of anything that's in the waters, you may eat all of those things that have fins and scales.
And certainly, I presume, without knowing exactly that in the sea of Galilee, there would be fish that they could not eat, that they would have to separate what was clean and unclean. And there seems to me be more than just a parallel here with that as well. So this, this judgment is about cleanliness.
It's, it's about those whom God has called and elected and saved. And those are, are the ones that he's going to be separating out. All will be caught up in that net. But this idea for the unclean and those that are clean, I think would also be just like reverberating in their minds while he's saying this.
Trying to figure out what does he mean by all of this.
[00:51:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, um, we don't. I think Christians can sometimes disregard the categories in Leviticus. Um, what I mean by that is like we think of clean and unclean as like categories that have no relevance for us.
[00:52:04] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:52:04] Tony Arsenal: And on a certain level that's that's true.
Like that was part of the ceremonial law. And, and the only reason they don't have relevance for us is because in, in Christ, we're all clean. But there's also an element that, that, that implies or it entails out of Christ. They're all unclean.
[00:52:23] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:52:24] Tony Arsenal: Right, exactly. So someone who is unclean in the Old Testament did not have access to any of the ceremonial, cleansing or blessings of.
Uh, of the, the scriptures of God's, God's religion In the Old Testament, they didn't have access to the temple. They didn't have access to God's people. They were often, you know, castigated out of society itself. Um, I was listening to, I forget who it was, but I was listening to an excellent sermon on, um, the, uh, the, uh, woman who is suffering from bleeding.
I think it was Dr. Michael Yusef. And, um, he made the point that like, not only would she have been isolated from her religious community, her family would've had to isolate themselves from her in order to not become unclean themselves.
Right.
So when we talk about cleaning and unclean in the Old Testament, it is this picture of entire isolation, right?
Well, what, what does this parable end with? It's a place where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth, which we learn in other parts of the gospels when crisis. Talking about this is a place of outer darkness.
[00:53:28] Jesse Schwamb: That's
[00:53:28] Tony Arsenal: right. It's a place of isolation it, it's a fiery furnace, but it's also a place where there is nothing and no one else to keep you company or to share your misery with you are utterly alone to be undone by God's wrath for all eternity.
That's the picture we have here, right? That's the picture of uncles. That's why uncles is isolating in the Old Testament is 'cause this is this picture of judgment. So I think you're right when we're talking about the sorting of fish. We're talking about the, the sorting of the good fish and the bad fish.
We probably should read that as clean and unclean fish.
[00:54:04] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly
[00:54:04] Tony Arsenal: right. It's not just the good fish as in like, Ooh, this is delicious, and oh, that's kind of rotten. Like we're not talking about like, Ooh, I've got a yummy trout, and like, ooh, just like a really gross bottom feeder. That's not what we're talking about.
Right. Although I think bottom feeders probably would be unclean. 'cause they don't typically have fins per se.
[00:54:20] Jesse Schwamb: Agree.
[00:54:21] Tony Arsenal: Um, but like we're talking, we're not talking about like the quality of the fish.
[00:54:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:54:26] Tony Arsenal: As in like, this is delicious or healthy. Yeah. And, and this is kind of gross. We're talking about clean and unclean.
We're talking about whether or not a, a Jew could eat this fish and not render themselves to be unclean and to be excluded from the religious community and to be excluded from God's worship, to be made outsiders, even if temporarily, that's what unclean is did to you. It made you outsiders from the people of God.
Um, sometimes, temporarily, sometimes. Sometimes permanently. And, and a person who willingly eats unclean food in the Old Testament is separated. I, I think, separated permanently in some instances. So I think this is a, this is a parable that has a lot more to it than you probably would understand, just casually reading.
And I say that just to, to commend to you like a really good commentary Will, will get you to a lot of these places for sure. It will help you get to where this is. So whether you're using something like Calvin, which is available free online, Matthew Henry, which is free online. Um, I've been reading in the Pillar New Testament commentary series for a lot of this, um, which is, is a fairly technical commentary series, but you can get it pretty affordably on, on something like logos.
Um, wherever you're going, if you're using a decent commentary, it's gonna help you to see some of these nuances in ways that you probably wouldn't at just a casual first glance. And
[00:55:41] Jesse Schwamb: of course I would add to that you can just go online and take a look at a couple of different translations and just kind of marinate in that, mold them over, read them over and over again in different versions.
[00:55:51] Jesse Schwamb: That can often be helpful, I think, because what this is really giving us excuse to do is get our meditation exercise muscles. Like buffed, like, let's, let's get sw as the kids say on meditation, because this gives us an excuse to say as we're turning this over, like reading it throughout the week and then turning it over on our way to work, or as we're walking to our vehicle, or as we're heading into the grocery store.
I think that's a very thing that God rewards to build through the power of the Holy Spirit, greater, deeper intimacy with what Jesus is saying here. And then why wouldn't the Holy Spirit want to empower Jesus' words for us even now, and to give us greater insight and greater closeness to him as we grew through these things?
So I think in that way, it's a really great excuse to just use this as an opportunity to practice meditation, some deliberate meditation to sit down and to actually think, what, what is meant here by the net? What, what would a, how would they use the net? If I imagine even fishermen using a net, what can I draw from that?
Because of course, clearly Jesus was using these very practical, ordinary, normal means. To communicate grand spiritual truths and they connect in consummate harmony. So it's all there for us to really grasp hold of like, this truth is not too far away, that we cannot grasp it by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I think we ought to continue to pray in that way. And this is just like a lovely excuse to really kinda lean into that more directly then some other passages of the Bible. This just lends toward that because this is the teaching of our Lord and Savior for us. He is for us, and in this teaching I see him being very much for us.
Yeah. In that he's communicating something to us that we ought to understand if we have ears. To hear that. That is the whole point, isn't it? And I take what you said, and I think that should be a great encouragement to us, that this idea that when Jesus draws near nothing remains the same. And that alien imputed righteousness is that new creation.
That regeneration is a cleanliness. And again, I can just imagine the people listening to this being very familiar with what it meant to follow the dietary restrictions very. Well, pun intended religiously and fastidiously and meticulously. And then for Jesus to use that and draw that data in this diff different way.
And I think what we've learned in this whole conversation is Jesus taught us that the kingdom of God. Is both God's sovereign future separation of the righteous and the wicked. He reigns in rules everywhere, in all places, in all realms and all spiritual realities. And I think the overall reformed reading sees this passage of reinforcing some of the doctrines you and I talk about all the time.
It's election, it's final judgment, it's perseverance. It's reminding believers to trust God's timing and to remain faithful until the end. And just like we are prone to say here, we find that Jesus is right in the center of this parable. Of course, because he, he's the one pulling up the net. He is God himself, and he's doing all the verbs.
He's pulling, he's bringing out of the water. He's sorting, he's sending. Yeah. And so we bow before him. We subject even our reasoning and our cognizance to him knowing that his ways are best, his will is the best, and that he's worthy of all praise and glory.
[00:58:59] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: That's a good place for us to add. Um, we would love it if you would continue on this with us.
If you would, um, pick up your Bible and read and, and marinate over this. Grab a good commentary. Um, have good conversations about this. Again, the Telegram channel is a great place to have these conversations. Um, but, you know, God's word is so rich and I don't wanna ever create a canon within a canon.
Right, right. I saw an interesting video online the other day where some liberal woman was talking about how like, Christianity is the religion of Paul, and people forget that. Like, you know, Paul never even met Jesus. And like then a like a reasonable conservative Christian is like, you do know that like all of the words that we have of Christ were written are like someone else's words recorded, like
[00:59:46] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:59:46] Tony Arsenal: All of it is secondhand in a sense. Um. All of that to say, uh, there is something sweet about the red letters, right? For sure. Um, it's not that they're more inspired or that we should take them more seriously, um, but we should definitely take them at least as seriously as we take the epistles, which I think sometimes, uh, reform Christians do have a tendency to prioritize Paul over the gospels.
Um, some of that is that it's explicitly teaching material, um, which makes it a little easier to digest and a little easier to preach. Um, but we definitely should spend time in the gospels. We should spend time, um, studying the words of our savior, studying what he taught his people in, you know, the people who were with him when he taught his apostles directly.
Um, there's a lot of value to that that we don't wanna overlook and we don't, don't wanna pass by. So I'm glad that we're gonna be in the parables for the foreseeable future. I mean, it's gonna be a long time, and, and I'm, I'm stoked for it. I'm here for it.
[01:00:46] Jesse Schwamb: I'm definitely here for it. I think what we keep going back to is, wow, do they like pack a punch?
Like what? What I would've probably read through and have read before with somewhat of like a cursory attitude like, yeah, yeah, okay. It's a recapitulation just for emphasis. Right. What I found this time around was, of course it was doubling down on some things, but also giving us something completely different and new to consider.
And if, unless again, this is just. The condemnation. I feel the conviction I have is that I just spend far too little time in meditating on words like this. Yeah. It just, a little bit of meditation. I think God honors that. It, it kindles a fire within us for the scriptures, for greater love, for Christ, for closeness to Christ that is absent when we just tend to read through these, like again, like we're just eating that cheeseburger on the way home, on the highway real quick because we've got things to do and we've gotta just pack in a meal because we know we gotta eat between things instead.
Love ones. We gotta sit down at the table, take our time, get the nap, get the, get the nice cloth napkins, you know what I'm talking about.
[01:01:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[01:01:55] Jesse Schwamb: And have the, the family style dinner passed around. Talk to everybody and set aside the time knowing like the, the activity for today is like, like you would treat like a, a good old American Thanksgiving.
You come to that meal knowing like, this is what we're doing today is we're eating. We're fellowshipping, we're, we're spending time with one another. We're taking our time to enjoy and to savor. And I think you and I are always trying to grow in that to some degree. But here again, we have just a lovely excuse to do a little savoring of the scripture.
So come and savor with us.
[01:02:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, uh, something that just crossed my mind that's a little bit insane is like, if you're reading the Bible in a year, which the like Yes. Read the Bible every year. Sure. If you're reading the Bible in a year, you, you read this chapter probably along with one or two others in a single sitting.
[01:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[01:02:43] Tony Arsenal: And like, how often do we take time to sit down and really think about. Two or three or four verses and just really s like really sit in that. Mm-hmm. Um, there's a huge benefit to reading. I've said this before, like, especially I think especially in the Old Testament, um, because we're not, probably not used to.
As much expository preaching in, in, especially like Old Testament narratives. Um, we are not used to really digging deep into the Old Testament and we don't hear a lot of it. Um, there's a lot of benefit in reading large portions of text in one sitting. Like, it's great if you do a, like a reading plan where you're reading through the Bible three times in a year and you're read like 5, 6, 7 chapters in one sitting.
That's great. But also it's good to sit and read like two chapters and really, or two, two verses and really meditate on them, really think about them. Um, we don't do that as much. Right? And there's a huge, huge blessing and benefit in it. Um, so yeah, you gotta have a very diet. Sometimes you gotta read a lot, sometimes you should read a little.
Uh, ideally you're doing both of those. Most days you're spending time reading big chunks and, um, and also meditating on small chunks. But I'm glad that at least in this series for the foreseeable future, we're really taking our time and we're really kind of doing the slow roast. Low and slow is the way to go with this.
[01:04:01] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, and slow like a pot roast on the Lord's day.
[01:04:04] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes.
[01:04:05] Jesse Schwamb: Well, whether you read a lots or you read a little, we know that. Until next time, you should honor everyone.
[01:04:11] Tony Arsenal: Love the brotherhood.
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In this thought-provoking episode, Tony and Jesse delve into Jesus's twin parables of the hidden treasure and the pearl of great price from Matthew 13:44-46. They explore the profound economic metaphor Jesus uses to illustrate the incomparable value of the Kingdom of Heaven. Through careful examination of both parables, they discuss what it means to "count the cost" of following Christ while simultaneously recognizing that no earthly sacrifice can compare to the infinite worth of gaining Christ. The conversation moves between practical application—considering how believers assess value in their spiritual lives—and deeper theological reflections on Christ's perfect sacrifice that makes our entrance into the Kingdom possible in the first place.
The economic metaphor Jesus employs in these parables is striking—both the hidden treasure and the pearl are deemed so valuable that the discoverers "sell all they have" to obtain them. As Tony and Jesse point out, this transaction reveals something profound about how we should view the Kingdom of Heaven. It's not simply that the Kingdom is valuable; it's that its value so far exceeds anything else we possess that the comparison becomes almost absurd. As Tony notes, "For sure the worth of the kingdom of heaven surpasses anything we could imagine... there's no measure that is satisfying, there's no measure that can actually show us how worthwhile it is."
This perspective transforms how we understand sacrifice in the Christian life. When opportunities or comforts are foregone because of our faith, we're not simply losing something—we're experiencing the reality that we've chosen something infinitely more valuable. The parables teach us to view these moments not with regret but with a clearer vision of the treasure we've received in Christ.
Perhaps the most powerful insight from the discussion is the realization that the ultimate treasure of salvation is not the benefits we receive, but God Himself. As Tony eloquently states: "All of those things are attending gifts. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God... we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We get swept up into the life of the Trinity... We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that."
This perspective reshapes how we understand the value proposition of the gospel. It's not merely that we receive eternal life, freedom from suffering, or other benefits—though these are real. The pearl of great price is relationship with God Himself. This helps explain why both men in the parables respond with such dramatic, all-encompassing sacrifice. When we truly grasp what's being offered, nothing seems too great a price to pay.
"What we get in salvation ultimately is we get God. We get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We get swept up into the life of the Trinity... We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that."
— Tony Arsenal
"I often say in my own line of work, that cost only matters in the absence of value... it's like at the end of days when we think about the worthiness of our God, that there's no one like him, that he's unequal, that he has no rival, that the gospel is the sweetest message that we're rescued literally from the pit. We'll just say no matter what the cost of us personally, great or small, totally worth it."
— Jesse Schwamb
[00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: All of those things are attending gifts. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the, the power of the Holy Spirit. We, we get swept up into the life of the, the God of the universe. Like the life of the Trinity indwells us.
And we, we become a part of that. We get swept up into that. We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that.
[00:00:47] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 469 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:54] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.
[00:00:59] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.
[00:01:00] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, we're back at it again with a whole new, or let's say different parable from our Lord and Savior Jesus.
And we've been talking about how really these parables give us this view of the face of heaven through these earthly glasses. And I am pretty interested in our conversation about what's coming up because sometimes we don't like to put too fine a points to our, our point of question to our faith. And in this case, we're gonna get to ask the question, what is it all worth, this kingdom of heaven, this rule and reign of Christ?
What is it all about? Who are the beneficiaries of it? And what is it all actually worth? There's a little bit of economics in this, so we're gonna get there. And while we talk and do a little affirming or denying, you should just go ahead write to just skip, go. Do not collect $200 or maybe. Pass, go and collect $200.
I dunno. But just go to Matthew chapter 13 and hang out there for just a second.
[00:01:58] Jesse Schwamb: But first, I'm always curious to know whenever we talk, are you gonna affirm with something or are you gonna die against something? We've been on a string of lots of affirmations, but I'd like to think that's just because we're fun, loving, optimistic people.
But there was a day where we had to do both. And now that I only have to choose one, I do find myself gravitating almost naturally toward the affirming width. But I leave it to you, Tony, are you affirming with or denying against?
[00:02:22] Tony Arsenal: I, unfortunately am denying tonight.
[00:02:25] Tony Arsenal: So you and I already talked about it a little bit, but uh, I'm denying Apple Podcast Connect.
Oh yes. So, uh, I. Obviously, like if you're affected by this, you're not hearing the episode 'cause it's not updating for you. But, uh, if you happen to be using Apple to listen to the podcast and for some reason you're listening somewhere else, maybe you realize that the podcast has not been updating for several weeks.
And so you went to a different podcast catcher. Um, apple just decided for some reason that none of our feeds were gonna update. No good reason. So I've got a ticket out to Apple and hopefully we'll get it fixed. Uh, if you do know someone who listens to the show and they use Apple, please tell them to subscribe to something else or to, uh, go to the website.
You can get all of the, all of the episodes on our website. You could go to Spotify, you could do something like, uh, overcast or PocketCasts. Um, it really is just Apple. It's, it's the actual account that we use to, uh, to access. Apple's Directory is not pulling new episodes and it's not pulling new episodes on another show that I run as well.
So, uh, it's not just this show, it's not our RSS feed. These things happen. It'll, you know, you'll get four or five episodes all at one time. When it, when it corrects itself, usually they're pretty quick. I put in a ticket like late on Friday afternoon, so I didn't expect them to get to it on, uh, Saturday or Sunday.
So hopefully by the time you're hearing this, uh, it's resolved. I would hope so, because that means it would be about a week from today. Um, so hopefully they'll have a resolve. But yeah, it's just th thorns and thistles. This is our own, our own, uh, manifestation of the curse here in this little labor that we do.
It's, it's thorns and thistles right now, but no big deal. Just, uh, catch up when you can. And, uh, yeah, so denying Apple Podcasts now, really, it's, it's a great service and this is a, a little glitch. It's, it's just a little frustrating.
[00:04:20] Jesse Schwamb: The sweat of our brow. Yes. Here it is. We're just toiling over getting Apple to please release our episodes.
Well, it'll be your happy day if you use Apple Podcasts and then get a bunch of them all at once. That's fantastic. It's like the gift that is over in abundance.
[00:04:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it is a good reminder that you just said, Tony, that everybody should go, just take some time. Head on over to our form brotherhood.com. You can find all the other 400 some odd episodes living over there.
And while you're over there and you're perusing or searching by topic to see what we've talked about before, you're probably gonna think to yourself, this is so incredible. How is this compendium, this omnibus of all these episodes just hanging out here free of cost? And I'm so glad you're thinking about that because there are so many lovely brothers and sisters who have decided just to give a little bit to make sure that all that stuff gets hosted for free for you Yeah.
And for us, so that anybody can go and explore it and find content that we hope will be edifying. So if that's something you're interested in, maybe you've been listening for a while and thought, you know what? I would like to give a little bit one time or reoccurring, we would love to, for you to join us in that mission.
You can go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood, and there's all the information for you to give if that's something that you feel you would like to do, and we would be grateful for you to do it.
[00:05:32] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. We, we have a group of people who support the show. They make it possible for your, uh, your ear holes to be filled with our voices.
And, uh, but again, you know, the costs are going up all around and, and we would, uh, certainly love to have people partner with us. Um, we've committed to making show that the, making sure that the show is free and available. Um, it's never our intention to put anything behind a paywall or to, to barrier and in that way, but we can only do that if there's people who are supporting the show and making, making sure that we've got the funding that we need to, to keep going.
So, thank you to everybody who gives, thank you to anyone who's considering it, uh, and thanking anybody who decides to, uh, jump on board with that.
[00:06:11] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. We're appreciative who we really are.
[00:06:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today?
[00:06:16] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, this is what I've kind of done before, but I think I've found a new place for it.
I just am continually impressed and fall in love with how great and big and lovely God's world is. So I love these types of sites that give you insight into this great big world, even if it's in unexpected places or maybe in strange places. So I'm affirming with a website called Open webcam db.com.
Open webcam db.com. And it's exactly like what it sounds like. It's a database that has something like 2000 live cameras streaming daily from over 50 countries, all searchable by a category. So you can find natural landscapes, airports, construction sites, and one of my recent favorites, honestly, and this is.
It's so strange, but kind of awesome is this warehouse, it's called Chinese Robotic Warehouse Buzz, and it's just robots moving pallets around or like stacks of all of these items. It's mesmerizing. But I would encourage you go to open webcam db.com, search for like your stage or your country. You'll find so many amazing things.
So I've sat and just watched, you know, between tasks or when you know you just need a break or you're just curious about the world. Like I look, I watched the Krakow Maine Market Square quite a bit because it's. Beautiful and brilliant, and to think about the people moving to and fro and what they're doing, what their lives are like.
There's some great scenes from San Francisco Bay. There is a bird feeder in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania that I often watch. So of course, like go out as we've said, and live and breathe and be in your own communities. And as well, if you're looking at scratch that itch of just seeing all these different places, all the different things that are happening in God's created world, I can firmly and unreservedly recommend open webcam db.com for that.
[00:07:58] Tony Arsenal: Nice, nice, uh, little known fact at one point, Dartmouth Hitchcock, which is the hospital that I worked for, had to block a penguin cam, uh, because it was causing such a productivity drain combined with an actual measurable decrease in internet bandwidth at the hospital. 'cause so many people were watching this little penguin cam at some zoo in Boston.
I think it probably was. Yeah, I, I love this kind of stuff. I think this kind of stuff is great. Uh, I use, uh, Dartmouth College has a, like a live one that I use all the time, especially when we're trying to figure out what the weather's gonna do. You can see it on the camera. Uh, we, we often will, you know, see, especially as we get closer to the season when we're talking about traveling to the beach and whatnot, uh, often look at the ocean grove.
Oh, that's right. Uh, pier cam. So yeah, check it out. Uh, sounds like a fun time. Do not share it with too many of your friends at work. Or it may crash the network and Yeah. But
[00:08:53] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, for
[00:08:54] Tony Arsenal: sure. That was a funny email that they had to send out. I remember that
[00:08:57] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. Use, use the penguin cam responsibly. I just did a quick search.
There are four different penguin cams. Uh, three of them are in the United States, one is in New Zealand, and you better believe I'm gonna be checking those bad boys out. Yes. I didn't even think about. The penguin feature here and penguins are an amazing animal. Like we could stop right now and just shift our topic to penguins if you want to.
[00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. '
[00:09:16] Jesse Schwamb: cause there's so much there. And the spiritual truths are so broad and deep, but I just think penguins are kind of undervalued. Birds. Everybody should go check them out.
[00:09:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're pretty cool.
[00:09:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Um, I'm like, I will watch any Penguin documentary and just be astounded by Penguin.
Like, whether they're Emperor Penguins or South African Penguin, wherever. I just think they're phenomenal and hilarious and seem to be living the dream. And he doesn't want a little bit of that.
[00:09:46] Tony Arsenal: You just gotta get Morgan Freeman to do the voiceover in any documentary or, or nature documentary is better with Morgan Freeman doing the voiceover.
[00:09:55] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I all, this might be a deep cut real quick, but I just learned this, and I'm guessing some of our listening brothers and sisters probably already know this. Maybe you do too, Tony. So, Benedict Cumberbatch, do you know where I'm going with this? Yep,
[00:10:06] Tony Arsenal: yep. Pen wing.
[00:10:07] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I didn't. I cannot say that word or stumbles over its pronunciation.
He did some kind of big documentary in which Penguins played at least some part. Yeah. And they were in an interview. They were giving him such a hard time because they played his reading of it like within the same kind of five minutes. And his, the word just kept degenerating in his mouth every time he said it.
So it became like almost undistinguishable from the actual word. And it's like initial pronunciation. It was so hilarious. Apparently it's a big joke on the internet and I just didn't know it.
[00:10:38] Tony Arsenal: Especially for someone like Bent Cumberbatch who just is, uh, like he's a world-class voice actor.
[00:10:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:10:45] Tony Arsenal: And like a super smart ude guy and he just can't say the word penguin and penguin.
Yeah.
[00:10:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. He said, you got everybody go look it up. 'cause it is super hilarious. And now it's kind of gotten stuck in my head. But um, again, this suddenly became like the All Penguin episode all of a sudden.
[00:11:01] Tony Arsenal: I mean like, he can pronounce his own last name just fine, but the word penguin escapes him. I like to call 'em blueberry crumble bottom or whatever.
Crumble bunch.
[00:11:11] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, see that's the good stuff right there. That's what everybody we know. This is what you all tune in for. This is what you're missing when Apple Podcast doesn't send everything out on time. Yeah. You're welcome.
[00:11:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:11:23] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, why don't we, why don't we get into it? Because you know it, it's interesting.
Let's
[00:11:27] Jesse Schwamb: get into it.
[00:11:28] Tony Arsenal: Well, it's interesting because when you, you know, you kind of, we, we sort of do the little lead to the episode and I, I suddenly realized that I think I've been interpreting this parable very differently than maybe you have or other people. Great. Do, uh, because I, I think I, I think I might have a different take on it.
Let, let's do it. Yeah. So let's get into it. Uh, do you have the, the text in friend you wanna read? Uh, why don't we just do 44 all the way through 46? We'll do both parables in one reading. We'll come back and talk about it.
[00:11:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Sorry, everybody. So here's a two for one for you. Beginning in where we're in verse 44 of Matthew chapter 13.
This is Jesus speaking. The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy, he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field again. The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
[00:12:22] Tony Arsenal: I think maybe this is the, like the beauty of parables, uh, when Christ doesn't give us a interpretation. I, I think we're, we're, we're not free to like make up whatever we want, but these kinds of teaching tools are useful because the fact that there can be multiple interpretations actually is, is probably intentional.
[00:12:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:12:43] Tony Arsenal: So it's funny because I think when you intro the episode here, it sounds like you're going to the kingdom of Heaven being a treasure hidden in a field, being something that we should sell everything we have and go after. And when I read this, I read it as the kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden a field.
And the man who is Jesus goes and sells all that. He has. He gives all that he has and buys the field. So, and I, I think this is one of those ones where like. Probably both of those things are in play. Sure. But it's interesting 'cause I've never, I've never really read this and thought about myself as the person who buys the field.
[00:13:19] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Interesting.
[00:13:20] Tony Arsenal: I've probably heard sermons or read devotionals where people have said that and it just never clicked. And it didn't register until just now. And you were, when you were, uh, introing the parable that maybe you are the, maybe your way of introing your, your interpretation. Maybe that's the dominant one.
So I, I looked at a couple quick, um, commentaries while you were speaking and I didn't get a chance to do my commentary reading before the episode. It seems like I'm the weird one. So, but it's interesting, um, 'cause again, I think that's the, kind of the beauty of parables is that sometimes the, the, um.
Ambiguity of what the possible meaning could be, probably plays into the, the, um, teaching technique itself.
[00:13:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I, I think that's fair. I totally can take and understand what your perspective is on this. What I find interesting is that these, we've got these two abutting each other, like the cheek to cheek parallel approach here, and in doing so, there seems to be like kind of an interesting comparison between the two.
Actors in this. And I think we should get into that. Like why in one case Jesus is talking about a person who finds this in a field, which by the way, I think the, the thing that jumps out to me first about that person is this person doesn't actually own the field at first. Right. That the treasure is in.
So that is interesting. I'm totally with you. But then the second one, so in the first one there's kinda almost like this sense, and I don't wanna like push this too far, but that this person who finds this treasure does so very unexpectedly, perhaps like he's even the hired hand and of course not the one who owns the field.
[00:14:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:14:49] Jesse Schwamb: And in the second case, we have somebody who almost is volitionally looking for this thing of great value, but finds the one thing above all the other things that they're used to looking for that clearly has the greatest and most. You know, essential worth and therefore the end is always the same in both of 'em.
They give everything they have. They're willing for forsake all other things with great joy, recognizing the great value that's in front of them. I think there is a place to understand that as Christ acting in those ways. I think there's also interesting, again, this comparison between these two people.
So I'm seeing this as we've got these varied beneficiaries of the kingdom. They both come to this place of the incomparable value of the kingdom, but then there's also like this expulsive power of the kingdom. All, all of that's, I think in there, and again, these are really, really, really brilliant, I think, because the more that you spend time meditating on these, the layers just kind of come and they fall away and you start to really consider, well, why again is Jesus using these two different characters?
Why is he using this kinda different sense of things of, of worth what the people are actually after? I think all of it's in play. You're totally right.
[00:15:54] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:55] Tony Arsenal: So I think, you know, when we think about the kingdom of heaven, when we think about these perils, we made this point last week, we shouldn't, um, we shouldn't restrict, we have to be careful not to restrict the comparison to just like the first noun that comes up,
[00:16:08] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:16:08] Tony Arsenal: So it's not just that the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure, it, it is like a treasure, but it's like a treasure that's hidden in a field.
Yes.
And it's not just like a treasure that's hidden in a field, it's a treasure that's hidden in a field which a man found and covered up.
Right?
So, so like we have to look at that whole sequence.
And I think, I think, um, you know, obviously like the, the interpretation that we are the, we're the man who finds the kingdom of heaven and we, you know, we go and buy the field. Um, that, that obviously makes perfect sense now that I'm looking at a few different commentaries. It seems to be the predominant way that this gets interpreted.
And we, we look at it and we say, what, well, what does this mean for like our Christian life? Like. What does it mean? Do we have to, do we have to give everything away? Do we have to sell everything we have? Is that the point of the parable? I think some people make that the point of the parable. Um, I'm not convinced that that actually is the point of the parable.
Um, because it, you know, it, it, it just, there's lots in the scripture that, that, uh, doesn't seem to require that Christians automatically like, give away everything they have. Um, maybe that's your calling. Maybe it is something that God's calling you to do to sort of, um, divest yourself of your, your belongings, either to sort of fight materialism or greed or, or just because like you're gonna need to have that fluidity and liquidity to your assets 'cause you're gonna need to move around or whatever it is.
But I don't think we look at this parable and have like a, like a, a command for a life of poverty or something like that.
Right.
Um, really this is more about the. Utter sold outness of the Christian to pursue and seek the kingdom of God.
[00:17:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right.
[00:17:49] Tony Arsenal: And and I think that that's the same in both, even though the way that the person in the parables comes a, comes across the kingdom or they come across this, this thing of great value or thing of great price, that they find their response in both parables is the same.
And to me, that that actually tells me that that's more the point of these parables. Um, or, or maybe we shouldn't even think of these as two parables, right? Some of the introductory language that we see in when we transition from one parable to another, we don't really see that here. Uh, and if, if we're gonna follow that, actually we would be going to the next parable would also kind of fall into this.
But he says the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure. And then in 45 he says, again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls. We're gonna run into something like this later on when we get to like the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of lost coins. Where there are these distinct parables, but they're kind of stacked on top of each other in order to make a specific point.
All of the parables that are sort of in these parable stacks are making the same point. And so I think it's not so much about like, how do we find the Kingdom of Heaven or how do we come upon the kingdom of heaven? It's more about what do we do once we've come upon it? Once we've thrown it's, that's the point of the parable that we need to unpack.
[00:19:03] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. And I would add to that, like who is it that is the beneficiary of this kingdom? We have two different, very different individuals, which I, again, I think, we'll, we'll talk a little bit about, but I'm totally with you. I, I think it's, it's easier, it's almost too narrow and too easy to say. Well, this is really just about like physical ma or about wealth.
Like in some way the, what we're being taught here is that you have to get rid of everything of value in exchange for this. In some ways, that almost feels too transactional, doesn't it? As if like what, what we need to do is really buy the kingdom. We express our seriousness about this kingdom or the rule and reign of God by somehow just giving up everything that we own as if to prove that we're really worthy of receiving that kingdom that we prayed enough.
Right. That we've done enough, even though that we're contrite enough. Yeah. And all that stands like in direct opposition to the mercy and grace, which God gives to us through his son by the power of the Holy Spirit to bring us into this kingdom. So we know it can't really be about that. And so that leads me back again to just like the lovely details here.
And like you've already said in the first case, here's what really strikes me is. For probably most of us in the West, this idea of treasure is novel and maybe romantic. There's a adventure and an energy to it. Because we've all heard stories about this, whether it's like, I don't know, pirates of the Caribbean or the county Mount Cristo.
Like there's something about treasure finding some kind of, or national treasure. Sorry, that just came to my mind. Like I couldn't go any further without mentioning Nick Cage. So you know, like there's something there that pulls us in that finding this thing almost unexpectedly in a hidden place of immense worth and value is, has a real draw to it.
But I imagine that in Palestine being like a war torn region in Jesus' day, in the way people might store goods of great value in the fields they own. And then of course the owner may never be able to achieve for lots of reasons, including death. And then somebody might stumble upon it. And as I understand the, the laws there, of course, if you were to stumble upon something.
I was in somebody else's property and and on earth that thing take it out of the ground. In this case, you would be by law required to bring that back to the person who owned the field. So there's something interesting here that this first person, probably the more meager and humble of the two with they at least respected, like their socioeconomic status is let's, we could presume maybe going about their normal work.
They find this unexpectedly in the field and it's immediately recognized to be something of great value that it is to stop and to, again, there's like a measuring that happens behind the scenes. This person at least is measuring of all the things that I own, all things I could possibly own. The better thing for me to do is to consolidate all the rest of my wealth.
And this case, again, it's not the message of the story to do this, it's the exemplification of what's happening here. This person is so sold out to ensure that they acquire this great treasure that they stumbled upon, that they will take literally everything else of value that they own to exchange it for this very thing.
So I'm totally with you because I think the predominant message here is not like take all your wealth and make sure that you give it to the church or that it goes to ministry or to missions. That may all be well and good and it may all be the kind of calling that you receive. However, I think the principle message here is the kingdom of God is so valuable that losing everything on earth, but getting the kingdom is a happy trade off.
Like that's actually a really, really good deal. And so having the omnipotent saving reign of Christ in our lives is so valuable that if, if we lose everything in order to have it, it would be a joyful sacrifice.
[00:22:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, um, I think there is a level of.
[00:22:27] Tony Arsenal: Sacrifice that happens for every Christian and.
I mean, I, I know there's a lot of people who they, uh, come to faith as young children and we've kind of talked about that as like, that's that testimony that, you know, I think everybody really wants is like they wish they never had a time that they didn't know Jesus and Right. I don't know any parent that I've ever spoken to, and I'm certainly not any different here that doesn't want that testimony for Jesus, but, or for, for their kids in their relationship with Jesus.
But. I think most people who come to faith at some point in their life when they're able to remember it, like they, they have a conscious memory of their conversion experience. There is this sort of sense of sacrifice and e even a sort of a sense of loss. Um, I think there, there are times where, and, and you know, I think maybe, um, even people who've always been in the faith, um, they probably can resonate with this.
I think there are times when we might look at how our lives could have been different or could be different if we weren't in the faith. Um, and, and sometimes there's a sort of wistfulness to that. Like being a Christian can sometimes be difficult right On, um, you know, maybe you miss a promotion opportunity because you're not willing to work on the Lord's day or because you're not willing to do something unethical.
Like you, you miss out on some sort of advancement and you think, well, if I could just, you know, if I could have just gotten past that, like my life would be much different. And what this parable teaches us is. That's an understandable, like that's an understandable emotion or response. Um, and there is this weighing of the cost.
And in the parable here, he, like you said, there's this calculation that goes on in the background. He finds this treasure, he makes the calculation that to have this treasure is worth. Everything it's worth everything he has. He sells everything he has, and he buys the field in order to get the treasure right.
And, and there's some interesting textual dynamics going on through this chapter. We've talked about how the parables kind of like the imagery across the parables in chapter 13 here of Matthew, they kind of flip certain figures around and almost, it's almost intentional because he is getting the treasure and the treasure.
The kingdom of heaven here is like the treasure, but he's also getting the field right. And the kingdom of heaven is, is the field in other parables. Um, but this, this calculation that happens, um. I don't know, maybe my heart is just sensitive to this right now. I, I, I, I feel like a lot of times we look at that sort of wis wistful second glance at what could have been if we were not Christians, and we automatically feel like that's gotta be a sinful impulse.
Like, how could I ever even consider what life might have been? Like this parable implies that that's the thing we actually have to do. You have to know and consider what it is you've sacrificed or will be sacrificing in order to make this transaction happen. You can't just blanketly say like, oh, of course.
You know, you've gotta, you've gotta count the cost, as it were, and then you have to actually make the purchase. So I think we should look at this as a source of encouragement. Um, like I said, I'm not sure why. I feel like maybe there's, maybe there's just a, a. I dunno, I'm feeling a little weird and charismatic right now.
I feel like this is something that I definitely need to be saying, like, I feel like someone needs to hear this. Maybe it's just me that needs to hear this. And that's, I'm tricking myself by thinking of someone else. But we are able, as Christians, I think God permits us and in some sense, maybe even expects and commands us to recognize what we have given to be Christians in order that we might realize how much we have gained with that transaction.
It's not just this like remorse or regret, um, for the sake of remorse or regret. It's to be able to see how good and how beautiful and how worth it is the kingdom of God, uh, to, to, to claim that.
[00:26:23] Jesse Schwamb: I like that there is a great discipline and a great joy in remembering worth and worthiness. So there's gonna be times, like you said, when it's hard and if you look back, look back at the ministry of Jesus, I've often thought that he's like a poor evangelizer from like modern standards.
Yeah. Because often people come to him and say things like. I, I wanna be part of the kingdom of God. Well, what do I need to do to enter the kingdom of God? And here you have like a seemingly a willing convert. And he always says things like this, like, you gotta go count the cost. Yeah. Like is, is this worth it to you?
Like you have to deny yourself, you have to hate your own father and your mother, and your wife and children, and brothers and sisters, even your own life. Otherwise you cannot be my disciple. And in this kind of language, it's clear that Jesus is saying you fail often. And maybe this goes back like you're saying, Tony, it's like the parable of the soil that you fail to really take into account what it means to follow with full fidelity, to commit yourself in a fully unencumbered way.
Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to consider that? And as human beings, we're just not good often at counting costs. We're not good at thinking about opportunity costs. And it's interesting here that we're called out to say, even if you've already purchased the field as so to speak, that as if you've been saved by Christ, to continue to remember how good it is to be in the kingdom of God.
And that the joy. Of knowing as like the Heidelberg Catechism says in the first question that all things are subservient to our salvation. Yeah. That incredible worth of, that should be a source of encouragement in times of great trial and tribulation, no matter how big or small, so that this joy that this person has when they go and sells everything he has and he buys this field, you know those details, like you're saying, do press us.
It really comes to us with this idea that we should be able to see plainly why having Christ is more valuable than all other things. If the omnipotence all wise, God is ruling, ruling over all things for our joy, then everything must be working for our good, no matter how painful and in the end, God is gonna triumph over all evil and all pain.
So this kingdom is a real treasure. Like it is a, it is a real. A real quantity in our life and our wellbeing and in our spiritual consistency, that'll ought demand some reflection of how valuable it truly is. And then knowing that in our minds, that like influencing our behavior, our other thought patterns, and then our actual feelings about stuff.
So that when, like you said, we're passed over, we're looked over, we're ridiculed for something, we go back and we count it all joy to be worthy of being part of God's kingdom, knowing that it was because of the entrance and acceptability and the identity in that kingdom that we experience. Those things, those hardships begin with.
[00:29:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, um, I don't want us to miss out on the fact that even as the parable may be encouraging or forcing us to think about. The cost. It, it really is trying to emphasize the great value of the kingdom. Right? Right. We, like I said, we, we don't just count the cost. In order to count the cost for its own sake.
We count the cost in order to understand the great blessing that is ours in Christ. Right. All I, I count all that I have as a loss compared to the greatness of Christ Jesus. And, um, I think we just don't often do that. I, I, I think as Christians, that's probably a thought that is in our head more as young Christians, especially if we come to the faith in, in a time in our life where we're aware of things like that.
We think about things like that.
[00:29:59] Tony Arsenal: You know, I was 15 when I first came to faith and, um, I, I don't think I was in a frame of mind as a 15-year-old boy to think about, like. The cost of what I was doing, right? It's not like I was a particularly popular kid. I didn't have a, you know, I didn't, I wasn't unpopular, but it wasn't like I lost a ton of friends when I became a Christian.
I didn't really lose anything that was measurable. Um, but I do think that, as, you know, someone now in my forties, looking back at, you know, 15, 20, 25 years of, of Christian life, it's easy to see that things could have been different on a sort of temporal scale. Like my, my life could probably be more comfortable in terms of wealth or opportunities or other things that might, uh, aren't, aren't even bad things necessarily.
There is a sense of sacrifice. But again, God has brought us into this kingdom and he's given us parables like this and given us the ability to recognize. That we do have a cost, that there is a cost to be counted in order that we might now look at it and praise him for how great and glorious and valuable the gift that he's given us is.
[00:31:08] Tony Arsenal: And so I think, you know, I think that's the same basic meaning of this second, second half of the same parable. I guess the, the pearl of great price or the pearl of great value. But it's not exactly the same, right? It's not like Christ is just repeating the same ver, you know, parable with, with different words for variation.
Um, every word is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching correction, reproof, and training and righteousness. And I had a, I had a prophet in, uh, in Bible college who would say like, difference means difference. And he was often talking about like minute things, like the difference, um, or why, why is this word used instead of that word?
This word would've worked. And, and the author chose that one. There's a reason for that. Difference means difference, but. Christ here chooses to, to tell the parable a second time, um, in a slightly different way. Uh, and Matthew chooses to record these in the same sense next to each other in slightly different ways.
So what, what do we, what do we wanna pull out of this second parable that's different and what do we think it's telling us that's a little bit different than the first version Y?
[00:32:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's a great question.
[00:32:16] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, I love this idea because not until really, I was thinking about it this week when I read through them, was I really, again, drawn to the differences between these two main characters.
Interestingly, I think in both, and we can make the case that the, the treasure, the kingdom of heaven here represented in both this pearl or in this literal treasure is in a way hidden. Certainly the first man is not necessarily looking for, it's still revealed to him, but the second in a way. And on the other hand, he knew this guy knows treasure.
He's been seeking it with diligence in vigor, or at least like this is what he does for a living in his vocational career. He's out there trading pearls, presumably, and he knows something about them and how to evaluate them effectively. And so it's his business and he's dedicated himself to finding them.
And apparently he's seen plenty of them over the years. But then all of a sudden, and this is wild, the beautiful, all of a sudden, clearly the search comes to like an abrupt end because he finds this one of immeasurable value, so much beauty exceeding and value exceeding all the other ones. And he doesn't need to search anymore.
He just finds the one pearl that he can retire on a pearl with more than everything else. Or anything else that he's ever possessed and he gets it again. He does. And this brings him into symbol two with the first man. He does the same thing, then liquidate everything else and go after this one. Great pearl.
So to me, and I'm curious your perspective on this, I'm not necessarily promulgating that. Well, the first one is not a seeker and the second one is like a seeker of of God things. Right? There is though, like you said, a difference in their approach and what they're after. And so I think what we can take from this, at the very least, is that there is diversity in these beneficiaries of the kingdom of God that's covering everybody.
And just by these two kind of bookended or polar examples, that's what Jesus draws us to. But I would turn the question back to you. What do you think about this second guy? What do you think about the fact that his business is searching after these things? What? What do we take away from that?
[00:34:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:34:07] Tony Arsenal: And you know, the thing that drop that jumps out to me immediately in the first parable, the kingdom of heaven is, is like the treasure hidden in the field,
[00:34:16] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:34:16] Tony Arsenal: In the second one, the kingdom of heaven is the merchant who's searching,
[00:34:20] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:34:20] Tony Arsenal: Right. The kingdom of heaven is like the merchant in search of fine pearls who finds one. That's right. And so I think that they kind of are like, almost like mirror images of each other, right? One of them is about the treasure and what it takes to come upon it and then obtain it.
The second is about the person who is coming upon the treasure and, and finding it. And then what it takes again to obtain that treasure. And I think, I think you're right, there is an element here that. Um, in this second parable, the person who is seeking for this treasure is one he's seeking for the treasure, right?
Right. You get the image in this, in this first parable that the dude just kind of stumbles upon it. Um, I've heard this Todd as like, it's actually more like a guy who's just walking through a field rather than like a person working the field. And I'm not sure that matters that much, but there is this sense in the first parable that the guy kind of stumbles upon it.
He wasn't looking, it wasn't what he was trying to do, but you're right in the second one, the kingdom of heaven, and this is where I, this is where I think I need to think more about it, is what does it mean for the kingdom of heaven to be like a merchant searching for fine pearls
right
[00:35:23] Jesse Schwamb: on.
[00:35:23] Tony Arsenal: Rather than the pearls being the kingdom of heaven, which is what we see in the first bearable.
Um, and I don't know the answer to that question. I think I need to, need to think about it and study it a little bit more. But I do like this distinction that in, in the first case, it's sort of a happy accident. And in the second case, this is, this is the life, this man's life work. He finds he's, he's in search of fine pearls.
I'm not sure I know exactly what he's trying to do with the fine pearls. It seems like it implies that he's a pearl merchant or a pearl trader, but then he finds this pearl. He doesn't seek to sell it. He buys it. Right.
[00:36:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:36:00] Tony Arsenal: And, and the, the, the fact that the parable stops with him buying it sort of implies that like.
He actually is not going to sell it. He's just gonna keep this pearl. Now before the, the pearls, the, the source of the value of the pearls was kind of in the, the financial gain that selling or trading them could bring. But now he suddenly finds this pearl that is so valuable. It's so great, it's so beautiful.
Everything he was working to obtain before all of the money he's gathered by finding and selling pearls in the previous like mode of living. He now gets rid of all of that just to purchase this one pearl and presumably to keep it. And I think that again, is kind of a, kind of a, um, statement on our Christian life is that we, we probably have all sorts of things that we've been doing our whole life and we are seeking to, to move forward in our life.
And the kingdom of heaven is kind of the ultimate goal of all of that, for those who are in Christ, for those who are called according to his purpose. The purpose is not just to accumulate wealth. It's not even necessarily, uh, in and of itself to like grow in righteousness. It's to be transformed to the, uh, to the image of God's glory son, for the purpose of making him great, making his name renowned.
Right. When we look at that passage in Romans that have kind alluded to, he's, he would transform into the image of Christ so that he might be the first born among many brothers.
[00:37:24] Tony Arsenal: Ultimately, our, our sanctification and glorification is about making Jesus great and glorified, um, to give him glory, to have our glorification reflect his already intrinsic glory and the gift that he gives us, and I think that's kind of, kind of in play here, is that.
Uh, we might have all sorts of goals in our life. We might have goals in our Christian life, um, that are good things that we should strive for, but at the end of the day, all of those things only serve to bring us to the kingdom of heaven, which is this pearl of great price that we, we purchase, we buy it and we just kind of hang onto it.
It is its own treasure and it's, it's not about what this, this treasure can bring to us,
right?
Which is what the fine pearls were before they were about what the merchant can find and sell. It's, it's now about just obtaining the pearl and enjoying that pearl. Um, which I think is a little bit different than, than, um, what I would've thought of with the par before.
[00:38:19] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think, I think you're actually onto something with the distinction because I think of. So much of my career has been spent in financial services among people who are buyers and sellers of things. They're traders. And the way I read this was very similar to what you were saying to me.
What resonated was if this gentleman or this person is. Trading, collecting these pearls. Presumably they have appreciation for the beauty of the pearl itself. So there is like something innate that draws them to this particular thing. And with that experience and with that knowledge and with that, that appreciation of that beauty.
I think when they see this other pearl, it moves from, well, why would I ever sell that? I've seen everything. This is the most beautiful pearl I've ever laid my eyes on. And now I want to keep it for me. I want to have it in my possession. I want to cherish it and not just keep it in the inventory and then turn around and sell it for markup, presumably, because there is no nothing that would be of greater value to this person.
'cause they just sold everything else that they had. So they, it's appreciation for the pearl itself. It's going after that finding and seeking that great beauty. And then that led me right into Philippians chapter four, where Paul writes the church in Philippi, beginning of verse eight. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever's honorable, whatever's just whatever's pure, whatever's lovely, whatever's commendable.
If there's any excellence, if there. Anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me. Practice these things and the god of peace will be with you. So this idea, like you and I, Tony, have talked about like the world has great wisdom, it has great knowledge, it has things that can lead us by way of common grace into certain amounts of peace.
But the pearl of great price, the seeking after the going after all these great things is to find the gospel, to be given the gospel it revealed to you. And then say everything else I count as a loss. Everything else is worthless compared to this thing. And if you're a person that can appreciate even just by turn of mind or God's influence in your life, you know, knowledge and wisdom, and you're seeking after that, which is the ultimate expression and representation of those things, and then you find you come upon this pearl of great price, the gospel wisdom and the beauty of God represented in his son Jesus Christ.
And you say, this is it. I, I know enough to know, again, by the regeneration that comes through the spirit, this is the real deal. Then I think the message still stands. We come through two different directions into the same final culminating point, which is there is a condition for having this kingdom of God, for having the king on your side as your friend, but the condition isn't like wealth or power or negotiating or intelligence or even good trading behavior or going out and finding the right thing.
The condition is that we prize the kingdom more than anything else we own. The point of selling everything in these parables is to simply show where our hearts are at. And so I often say in my own line of work, that cost only matters in the absence of value. Actually, it's true for everything that we. We presumably spend our time or our money on cost only matters in the absence of value.
And I think like you and I could do a fun little experiment where I don't know, you ever talking to somebody about something and you're paying a cost to have that service delivered to you and you're, and you're just like totally worth it, like I would do totally worth it. Like, yeah, that's kind of the vibe I'm getting here.
It's like at the end of days when we think about the worthiness of our God, that there's no one like him, that he's unequal, that he has no rival, that the gospel is the sweetest message that we're rescued literally from the pit. We're just say no matter what the cost of us personally, great or small, totally worth it, that that's what we'll be saying for all of eternity as we worship him.
[00:41:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think even more than saying, totally worth it. I think when we are given our new eyes to see, and we no longer see through a da a glass dimly, we're gonna recognize saying that it was worth, it is is like it's a pale, like it's a faulty answer to begin with because the, for sure the worth of the kingdom of heaven surpasses anything we could imagine.
And in our, you know, locked in little meat brains that we have now, we're kind of com we're just comparing it to. You know, like what, what we could have had or what we, what we've given up. Um, it, it's gonna be an incomparable comparison. Like there's no, there's no measure that is satisfying, there's no measure that can actually show us how, how worthwhile it is.
And, you know, we've, we've made a point of it, like the, the blessing of salvation and, and really like what it is that we're getting, uh, in, in the. You know, the Christian understanding of salvation, it's not, it's not an eternal destiny. It's not bigger mansions in heaven. It's not freedom from death. All of those things come with it.
All of those things are attending gifts. That's right. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the, the power of the Holy Spirit. We, we get swept up into the life of the, the God of the universe. Like the life of the Trinity indwells us.
And we, we become a part of that. Uh, not, not in the, you know, like. Eastern Orthodox deification sense, although I think there's a proper way we can talk about deification. Um, but we get swept up into that. We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that.
There's nothing that we could ever point to. Um, it's funny, my, my wife and I, um, this is a little corny, but, um, we'll often say to, to each other instead of saying, I love you more than anything, we'll say, I love you more than everything. Right. And, and it's, it's a way to say like. You could take all that there is in the world, everything that I have that I could possibly consider and sum up the value.
And I love my wife more than that. I love my children more than that. So it's not that I love them more than any one thing, it's that I love them more than everything combined. And this is even greater than that, right? We, we will look back at our lives and if, if it's even in our mind, if we even can, can comprehend anymore.
The idea of thinking about what it costs us to obtain this pearl of great value, which is the kingdom of heaven, which is just another way to say, is just fellowship with the God of the universe. Um, we'll look at it and say no matter what it was. No matter what it could have been, I would give everything I, I love God more than everything.
Right. Right. There's nothing that could ever possibly be considered that even comes close to what we gain in, in Christ Jesus, in union with, with God. And I think that's the point of this, like I think the guy who, um.
[00:44:58] Tony Arsenal: I think about what it would take for me to even like to sell everything, like the concept of selling everything I own.
I'm not even sure how I would do that, to be honest with you. Like, I don't even know the mechanism for that kind of thing. But the idea that there's anything that could be valuable enough that I would just sell every piece of human property that I have, there's probably nothing like that in this world.
Like, there probably isn't. And to, to take that comparison and then basically say like, that's just what the kingdom of God is like. 'cause that's the other thing I think we miss about parables is you, you only make a comparison when you can't describe something, um, analytically, right? There's the difference between analogically and analytically Ana lot analytically means we're able to actually quantify and explain it kind of in strict terms, right?
I can, I can say that, um, uh, a heavy object ways, X number of grams or it, you know, or, um. Pounds or whatever. I can, I can measure that and make an analytical statement, or I can make an analogy, an analogy that is comparative. Uh, but by definition, or almost by by nature of the thing, when you make that comparison, you're kind of saying like, not only is it like this, but it's actually it, like it's more like this than I can even describe.
Right? So when we're talking about the kingdom of Heaven here, and we say it's, it's like, it's like a man who goes, he finds a treasure and then he sells everything. He has to get that treasure. It's infinitely more like that than it actually can be described. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm rambling on that a little bit.
Maybe trying to describe something that can't be described is, is hard to do.
[00:46:35] Jesse Schwamb: It's, that's, yeah. But yeah, that's, that's very difficult to do. I'm actually totally with you on this. I think I understand clearly what you mean, this idea that no matter how hard we actually try to value it, we'll be incapable of doing so.
Yes. And at best, it almost seems like this is a strange command in a way because it's, it's asking us to do in some ways a thing that is impossible for us to do. However, I think what you're saying is it doesn't mean that we shouldn't turn our minds toward that. We're a bit like people who, I don't know if this show is still on PBS, but like, do you know that show, remember that show The Antiques Road Show?
Yeah. Where people would like come, they'd ran ransack their homes or their garages with these old antique items and they bring them to this road show where there'd be experts who would value them. And inevitably we'll be like those people who come with what we think is like a. A thousand dollars clock that we got at a garage sale thinking, wouldn't it be great?
I know this is valuable. It's probably a thousand dollars. It'll be, look at the return, tenfold return, I'll get on this item, and then instead finding that it's worth $10 million when it's appraised. Yeah, I assume it'll be just like that in the Beautific vision that even maybe for all of eternity will be growing in our appreciation for just how valuable this great salvation is.
And yet at the same time, I think what this should encourage us to do is to pray things like God make us real in seeing and savoring Christ in his saving work above all the other things. Yeah. So that, as you said in your example, we would cherish him above everything, above all things that you have that right place in our hearts or that we be inclined to undertake that posture, which says, God, though I cannot understand it in full.
Would you help me to see that?
[00:48:08] Jesse Schwamb: And I wanna just say like, as a word of encouragement, maybe I'm speaking more to myself here so everybody else can disregard this if you like, but I think sometimes there can be a little bit of intimidation then when you hear these things and say like, ah, I'm just not, I just dunno if I love God enough, like I wanna love him, or I want to want to love him more.
And I think even that posture is appropriate. Yeah. Sometimes there, oftentimes in my personal life, I'll pray something like, God, help me to know how much you love me and would you give me the strength to love you back? So that even that awareness, that energy, that volition, that vitality, that, that heat, all of that, that fire itself is kindled by the Holy Spirit.
It's not like we need to like try to again manufacture here. Because the point of these, these stories is not again, that we just find the means to do a transactional exchange here, but that instead we really just sit in the full promises of God. And of course to that, I would say we always need to go back to, to something like Romans eight.
I mean, I know that we should, like you said, Tony, the. The standard description we give for the Bible is the one that gives itself, which is that all of it, all of it's is carried along by the Holy Spirit. All of it is God breathe. All of it is useful for something. And yet, of course, I say somewhat tongue in cheek that, you know, if I have 10 minutes to live, I'm probably not gonna the s descriptions of reading a genealogy, I'm going straight from Roman and say, Romans say, I think it's just like the pinnacle of the scriptures.
And so just a couple of verses at the end there, because I think this is, this is leading us into what is this great treasure? What is the kingdom of God? Why do we value it so much? What is the saving power? And uh, these verses, I mean, always just entirely get me ready to run through a wall. So this is the end of, of Romans eight beginning verse 35.
Who shall separate us from the law of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword as it is written for your sake. We are being killed all the day long. We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. No. In all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us for I'm sure that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from a love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.
[00:50:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a good word. And I, I, I like what you're saying too, is, is I think we, we can. There's this paradoxical thing that happens when the scriptures is trying to encourage us to do something, is we often like to get our, in our own way. And, and actually that becomes a source of discouragement for us.
The Bible calls us to something and we know we can't live up to it. And that's actually like part and parcel of, of reform theology to recognize that this is law, like the, the, the, the, you know, maybe not in like the strict sense, like when we talk about dividing the scripture into law and gospel, um. It may not be that this particular passage would fall under that rubric of law normally, but this idea that we need to count the cost and that we need to be treasuring Christ more and more, and then when we feel like I'm just not getting it.
I'm just not there. Like, I don't, I don't treasure Christ as much as I so should. Um, that Yeah, that's right. Nobody does. Nobody can, like, that's, that's kind of the point of this, and that's why it's law is it's, it shouldn't drive you in Christ. It should not drive you to despair. Right. It should not drive you to discouragement.
It should drive you to gratitude that God saved you anyways. That, that this pearl of great value is still yours even though you can't possibly deserve it. Um, you know, we're, we're a little bit different than the, the merchant and the man who finds the treasure in the field in that we can't sell everything we have and obtain it like they have the ability to do that in the, in the parables.
Right. Um, we, we don't, and we never will. And so rather than let that drive you to being discouraged that like you're just not getting. I recognize God is of infinite value and we are finite creatures. So we, we could, uh, value God perfectly. Like whatever that means, and I don't even know what that means, but we could value and cherish and love God perfectly as far as our capacities are concerned, and it still would not be enough to sufficiently merit God's favor for us.
Like as much as we can, even in, even in eternity. As much as we can value and worship and love and praise Jesus, he is worth infinitely more than we could ever give, even when we do it perfectly. And this is, this is why you know Christ coming to die, to live on our behalf, to die in our place. Why that's necessary is because only this is a, maybe a different take on it.
We, I think we talk a lot about how, um. Only God could, could carry, bear the wrath of God and not be destroyed. Right. Right. Only God could, um, could stand up under his own wrath, could stand up under the wrath of God and bear that punishment and not be destroyed. And so therefore, um, Christ had to be not just a man, but had to be God.
But on the flip side. And God requires perfect perpetual obedience, which involves loving the Lord your God, perfectly with your whole heart at all times. Right? Only God can do that too. So it's not just that God. It's not just that God is bearing wrath perfectly and infinitely on our behalf, on the cross, but Jesus is also loving God perfectly and infinitely and truly worth, truly worthing.
Him. Wor worship is, the word comes from worth. It's about attributing wor worth to God, only Christ, because he is, God could do that sufficiently and perfectly and infinitely. So he's doing that on our behalf too, right? He's praying and interceding on our behalf. He's standing in God's presence worshiping him in heaven on our behalf.
[00:53:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:53:54] Tony Arsenal: That is what this parable should drive us to. That's right. Is to recognize that yes, the kingdom of heaven is this pearl of great price that we could, we could never sell enough and and be able to buy, but someone did. Someone couldn't. And I think maybe this is where, where, and we didn't talk about it and that's fine.
But I think this is where my understanding of these came from a little bit is I've always read these to say that it's, it's Christ who is like the man who finds a treasure in a field and gives all that he has and buys that field. Right? And I guess that kind of lines up with the way that the field has been portrayed in the rest of the chapter.
And maybe that's where I got it from. I don't know. Right. Um, I don't think I've ever read it. 'cause now that I've looked at a couple commentaries, none of them make this connection. So I, I guess I want to be, I want to proceed with a little fear and trepidation. If you're the only person who's ever seen in church history, then, then go slowly and carefully.
Um, but, but the same thing is, is Christ is searching. Christ is searching in a sense for, for fine pearls, right? Sure. He says like, when the son of man returns to earth, will he find, will he find the faithful? Right? There is this element of, of God is seeking his people and when he finds them, he gives everything he has to purchase them.
That's right. Right. And, and so we need to look at these as a source of encouragement to point us to Jesus, who ultimately is the one who's obtained the, obtained the treasure and obtained the pearl for us, and has given us the kingdom of heaven. Who he himself is, in a sense, is the kingdom of heaven. Um, you know, we don't get a kingdom apart from the king who rules over it.
That's right. So to say that we inherit the kingdom of heaven is, is to say that we become co-heirs of the kingdom, which is Christ by Right. He gives that to us by grace.
[00:55:36] Jesse Schwamb: I keep trying not to say it, but it just keeps happening. It's another classic example of God does all the verbs, isn't it? Yeah. It's,
[00:55:42] Tony Arsenal: it is.
[00:55:42] Jesse Schwamb: We could speak for another couple hours then about how beautifully that fits in with the passive and active obedience of Christ, which you just described, and I, I, I'm with you. I think there's something in that parallel that's very. Very similar to let's say, like how he should appropriate or, or kind of approach like Psalm one, like who is this righteous man?
[00:55:59] Tony Arsenal: Yeah,
[00:55:59] Jesse Schwamb: it is Christ. And so the only way that we're getting, the only way that we even can give up enough is because Christ has already given it up in our stead and then welcomes us in so that again, we don't have to empty out our account, so to speak. That even like the indicative and the imperative comes together in Christ so that what he commands, he wills in our lives.
And I know time alludes us. I, I think I would be like remiss if I didn't mention how, to me as well, how. I was totally just struck by how I'll use this word because reform people will know it and you can stand, stand on your chairs and throw your hats into the air. When I say it is that, notice how irresistibly both of these characters are drawn to this treasure.
[00:56:41] Tony Arsenal: Yes.
[00:56:41] Jesse Schwamb: That when God illuminates it for them, it's, it's a foregone conclusion that they will do those things. I think that should be of great encouragement to us, because again, it's not like, well, how do I know if I find the pearl of great price or God opens up my, how do I know that I've done enough? That is a fool's errand.
You will never do enough. What we know though is that they, each of these were drawn irresistibly to do what God required because God had already accomplished it on their, in their stead and on their behalf. Yeah. And so we see sovereign grace, this justification union with Christ, like you said, and true discipleship, the believers joyful surrender of all else.
Is the fruit of a transformed heart. And I believe, like you're saying, Tony, it's not reasonable to expect that a child while truly being transformed, regenerated by God accepting the gospel. That is a real quantity. And as we grow in our lives through this idea of progressive sanctification, we come I think, to increasing levels of surrender and realization, which is all part of what it means to nly grow maturity as a Christian.
And that is also normal too. And as we do that, we should have increasing, I think, measures of joy in our life to lay these things down, to cast the crowns before Christ and say, this always belonged to you, but not, not to begrudgingly, but with great joy seeing that it is always in every way worth it.
Yeah. So I think by God's grace, the elect are gonna recognize Christ as the greatest treasure and willingly forsake all to follow him even. I mean, I'm, I'm a. Poster child for this. Even if we do a kicking and screaming that God works on us, puts us over the anvil at times and works on us in increasing levels of surrender, he's still doing that out of love and that is still a testimony that he's accomplishing the great work that he began, even if that started as you being a child and receiving this great gospel message in Word.
[00:58:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:58:28] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, as you mentioned, time eludes us and, uh, I, I think this is just a great place to stop. Um, we're coming back next week. We're gonna come back talking about the parable of the net, uh, which is, uh, again, is kind of linked to this parable, but is a very sharp turn to a different direction, I think.
Um, so there's, there may be some, some affinities here, but, um, we're gonna come back next week. We are gonna be in the parables for a long time. Brothers and sisters, like this is gonna be a long haul. Um, maybe not as long as our systematic theology series, which was like multiple years long. Um, but it's not gonna be a short one, but it's great because I love it.
I just love it. It's so, it's so much fun to look at these parables. Um, you heard tonight. Even just working through this together. This is one thing that, um, that I hear Matt Whitman say on 10 minute Bible hour lot. He will comment regularly and he'll sort of thank his listeners that him doing the show, him producing the podcast, has forced him to look at the scriptures and to sort of be forced to learn about them.
And I feel the same way about this kind of series. Like I get it working through the parables. It's such a joy and I don't know that I would've done it otherwise. So, um, if, if you are not already reading through these with us, if you're not spending some time taking a look at commentaries, please do consider devoting a little bit of time each week to taking, taking a, a, a look at these parables.
Grab a good study bible or a good commentary. You can get Calvin's commentaries on free or on online for free. You Matthew Henry online for free. Both of those are super good commentaries and just work through these slowly and think through them and think about how they apply to your life. Like I know that going into my week, I'm, I'm set up now to be able to look at.
What it has cost me to be a Christian. And instead of looking at it with this sort of wistful, sideways eyes of like, what could have been, I can look at it and say like, it doesn't matter what could have been because look at what I've got. Look at what I get because of the kingdom of God. Look at who I get.
Uh, I get God, and that's enough. It's more than enough. It could never be, not enough. Um, so brothers and sisters, I, I'm so thankful that we're working through this. I'm so, so, um, humbled that God has brought us to a place where he's given us our, the scriptures. He's called us to study it. And thank you to everybody who supports the show, you know, not just financially, but supports us by encouraging us in the Telegram chat, uh, which we haven't mentioned.
You go to t me slash for brotherhood. If you wanna join a really nice, fun online discussion group. Um, people who encourage us there. I get emails and text message once in a while from people who listen to the show. Um, thank you for coming alongside of us and for, for giving us this opportunity to study the scriptures together with you.
It really is a joy and I, I am so thankful to be able to do it.
[01:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned in our little conversation today? Well, it seems clear that the scripture's giving us two really unique examples, differences of the Kingdom of God, and searching it out and finding its surpassing worth. But what's clear is that it's greater than everything anything else in life.
And when God opens a person's eyes through regeneration, they recognize it's supreme value and gladly give up all to gain Christ and His kingdom. I think we've also learned that penguin videos can be dangerous. They have real productivity, uh, consequences, and that itself is something that we ought to value.
So again, enjoy your penguins responsibly, and I would argue maybe, maybe not do it at work. Don't just do your work at work and then when you're on your free time, enjoy those penguins,
[01:01:56] Tony Arsenal: penguin. Penguin, do you enjoy the Benedict Cumberbatch? Can't say Penguin video that you are gonna look up immediately after this.
[01:02:05] Jesse Schwamb: We know you're gonna look it up. 'cause if you haven't seen it, it's, it is actually hilarious.
[01:02:10] Tony Arsenal: It, it definitely is. Yeah. I, yeah. I don't know what else to say about that, Jesse. Except, until next time, honor everyone.
[01:02:19] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.