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n this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb dives into a theological exploration of work as an extension of Christian calling that extends far beyond paid employment. Building upon their previous discussion about vocational choices for Christians, Jesse addresses the question: "Does a Christian's work ever cease?" Through careful examination of Ephesians 2:8-10 and other passages, he argues that while the nature of our work may change through different seasons of life—including retirement, caregiving, or illness—God has prepared good works for believers to walk in throughout their entire earthly journey. The episode offers both theological foundations and practical guidance on how Christians can approach all forms of labor as worship, finding purpose and meaning in every season of life.
Jesse challenges the modern Western notion that work is merely a season of life that eventually ends with retirement. Instead, he presents a more ancient and biblical perspective: that work never ceases but merely takes different forms throughout our lives. Using Paul's metaphor of "walking" in the good works God has prepared (Ephesians 2:10), Jesse explains that our journey continues throughout life, with the landscape changing as we move through different seasons. Whether we're in paid employment, caring for loved ones, serving in retirement, or confined to a bed during illness, God has prepared meaningful work for us to do. Even those who are physically limited can engage in the vital work of intercessory prayer, which Jesse describes as "the kind of work that is so glorious... that while it exhausts us, it exhausts us in a way that brings us the greatest kind of sleep or refreshment." This perspective eliminates the anxiety many Christians feel about the purpose of their later years and affirms the ongoing value of their contributions to God's kingdom regardless of their physical capacity or economic productivity.
Drawing from the Westminster Confession of Faith, Jesse outlines six significant benefits of good works in the Christian life. First, good works manifest our gratitude to God for the gift of His Son—they become tangible expressions of thankfulness for salvation. Second, they bolster assurance of faith by providing evidence of God's work in our lives. Third, good works encourage other Christians toward greater acts of Christ-centered love, as we witness the transforming power of the gospel in one another. Fourth, they adorn the doctrine of God our Savior, making abstract theological truths visible and attractive to others. Fifth, good works silence critics who devalue biblical Christianity by demonstrating its positive impact. Finally, they glorify God by displaying His transformative work of love in our lives. These benefits apply to all forms of work—paid or unpaid—and give eternal significance to even the most mundane tasks when done unto the Lord. As Jesse emphasizes, "There are no mundane things. There are no small works... There are just these small things that come alongside with the great work that God has done already in our lives."
"Good works aren't bad when they're seen as the goal of salvation, not its ground. The goal, because it's worthwhile to want to worship God and to obey him by doing good works."
"Keep walking on that journey knowing that God all along the way has already prepared good works for you to do because he loves you and because this is our opportunity to worship him together in everything that we do."
"When we are performing this work for God, he assures our faith. He refreshes us in it. He exhausts us in the best possible way so that we might love him more, cherish him more, encourage one another more, and really come to understand his character more forthrightly."
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Keep walking on that journey knowing that God all along the way has already prepared good works for you to do because he loves you and because this is our opportunity to worship him together and everything that we do.
[00:00:32] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 459 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where the tulip never wilts. Hey, brothers and sisters.
[00:00:48] Jesse Schwamb: So in this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, this solo episode, I'm gonna wrap up a conversation that Tony and I just had in the last episode and set us up, wet Your Appetite for a whole brand new series.
[00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: That's gonna be starting in the next episode. So you find yourself bookended by two really great things. One, a great conversation we just had about the Christian and work. Are there jobs that really Christians shouldn't have? Because it takes us away from what it means to serve the Lord vocationally, as strange as that sounds.
[00:01:22] Jesse Schwamb: So if you didn't hear that, you're gonna wanna go check that out before you listen to me, wrap all of us up right now. In fact, here's what you should do. Stop everything you're doing, unless it's operating a vehicle or a backhoe. Power those things down. Get off the side of the road, then go to reformed brotherhood.com and you can find all of the episodes living out there that we've ever recorded, including the one from last week, and I believe will be greatly blessed by hanging out with some of those conversations.
[00:01:49] Jesse Schwamb: So go and do that first.
[00:01:51] Jesse Schwamb: On this episode, I'm gonna talk a little bit as a follow up about. Does the Christian's work ever cease? Is there a time, because we just spoke about vocational work and work for which we're remunerated, where once that goes away, what happens next? Is it a different kind of work?
[00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: Is it no work? Should we be the kind of people that are trying to pursue an end to that remunerated work as quick as possible? Is that okay? What happens if we can't be compensated for our work anymore? What happens? We're gonna reason from the scriptures a little bit more about work, our calling and all of that by way of vocation.
[00:02:26] Jesse Schwamb: And part of this conversation has actually come from a larger conversation. So one of the greatest and best things about this podcast, something I wanna boast in right now, because it has nothing to do with Tony or me, and that is. There are lots of people listening, brothers and sisters from all over the world who gathered together and debrief.
[00:02:47] Jesse Schwamb: Talk about the episodes, hang out and talk about life, share funny stories, share prayer requests, support one another. And you can do that by joining our little group on a messaging app called Telegram. So in fact, here's the second thing you should do. If you go to T Me Reform Brotherhood one more time, T Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood, slap that bad boy in your favorite browser, and that'll give you a link to our little corner of this messaging app.
[00:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: And there's a channel within that app just to talk about. The various episodes as a way of interacting with all of us, and as a result of the episode that we recorded last about this idea of vocational work and calling, how does that all come together? Brother Joshua posed an excellent question, which is in part the reason for the conversation I'm about to have with you all, and that is what happens.
[00:03:33] Jesse Schwamb: When we retire, or what happens when we desire to set aside sufficient resources if we can, so that we can get to that place as soon as possible. What then what about work or what if we have to care for a sick, sick, loved one? Or what if we have to come and take responsibility for our family in a different or unique way that takes us away from work where we're not being paid for things in the same way anymore?
[00:03:52] Jesse Schwamb: What happens then? So we are going to get to all of that on this little brief little episode that's gonna sit in between the end of our conversation on work and the beginning of our brand new series, which, you know, you want me to tell you what it is, but I'm not gonna do it. It's just not gonna happen on this episode.
[00:04:09] Jesse Schwamb: So you're just gonna have to sit in that anticipation waiting. Waiting for it to come next week, but for now, let's talk a little bit more about work.
[00:04:17] Jesse Schwamb: And let me start with a, a phrase that's like so obvious, but you can say it with me if you want, because we have to agree on this. At least that good works aren't bad.
[00:04:27] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, good works aren't bad. They're good. By definition it seems like self-reinforcing. And as Christians, we should want to do those good works. Now, I haven't said what the good works are, haven't even explained really. Although we, Tony and I talked about this before, how they really fit into that pattern and that normative behavior of the Christian life.
[00:04:44] Jesse Schwamb: But can we just agree that if the Bible is saying there are good works for us to do, then they must be good. And they must be there for a purpose. They must be there for a reason and we can't debate that. Just because we're not saved according to our works doesn't mean that we shouldn't be concerned about pursuing a life of joyful obedience to God's word.
[00:05:01] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, this is why Jesus like emphatically states in the gospel. If you love me, you'll keep my commandments in obedience. However frail it is. However much we stumble, however feeble we are in actually executing it is our evidence. Our love for God and for his son Jesus Christ. So far from undermining the gospel of grace, good works are the perfect compliment to the gospel, and this is why good works are good.
[00:05:29] Jesse Schwamb: So to be clear, good works are bad when they're seen as the basis of salvation. And I think if you've been with us for any length of time or you're familiar with the reform. Theological movement. If you've been steeped in the scriptures, you're gonna find that kind of compulsion, that pull that says like, well, I understand that when I use my good works as a means of somehow Meritoriously earning my salvation, they cease to be good.
[00:05:54] Jesse Schwamb: This is why, of course, Jonathan Edwards called Good works of this nature, only glittering sin because they're, they have no power to redeem. They have no power to save. They have no power to. Transition yourself into some kind of a righteous sense or rubric. It's impossible. They will not do that. They do not serve that purpose.
[00:06:12] Jesse Schwamb: A person is not saved by works, but by God's grace through faith in Christ.
[00:06:17] Jesse Schwamb: So this is the time where we have to love ones. Go to Ephesians chapter two. It's impossible for me to continue without at least sharing this good news. If you need to hear this again, and this may be a well rehearsed verse or a well rehearsed writing from the Apostle Paul to you, but I ask that you hear it again.
[00:06:32] Jesse Schwamb: If you can with these ears that are unstopped, that are almost fresh with excitement for this really good news, this is what Paul writes to the church and Ephesus for. By grace, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not as a result of works so that no one may boast.
[00:06:51] Jesse Schwamb: For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. I mean, there's so much there that is. Lovely and refreshing. And freeing. It's not works righteousness, it's not meritorious. Salvation is clearly not of our own doing. It's not the result of these works, even the faith through which we receive salvation is a gracious, gracious gift from God.
[00:07:21] Jesse Schwamb: So what a just burden taken off of our shoulders. The mantle has been removed from us. To somehow even equate or think that, well, if I have a good day and I've done a lot for God, he must love me more. I must be more ingratiated towards him, even if I have the sense that. I feel closer to him. Hopefully that closeness is the sense of joy and obedience.
[00:07:40] Jesse Schwamb: And now where we get the sense that, well, because I've done something for God, he ought to do something for me or me more favorably disposed towards me. All of that is nonsense and that way just. Total foolishness and madness lies. Instead, when we turn that into our rejoicing first for the faith itself by which we receive from God, that grants us access to this great salvation.
[00:08:02] Jesse Schwamb: When we see that as a gift first, then all of this other mongering for responsibility and trying to placate through the things that we can do and having this sense of guilt in our minds about what we should have done or what we did not accomplish, or even if in our own obedience toward Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, we've fallen short.
[00:08:20] Jesse Schwamb: We can still find there is this gift for us and the gift of salvation is ours in Christ through faith, not by works. It's very, very clear in what Paul writes to the church here as fallen creatures, even our best efforts are completely laced with sin. This also is, by the way, a really great kindness of God that we can never really be contrite enough in our coming before him and, and even in our humility, we probably can never be humble enough.
[00:08:47] Jesse Schwamb: So the fact that God accepts because of Christ us into the family of God without having to put upon us this burden that you must be sorry enough for your sin, or you're not repentant enough, you haven't expressed the severe and necessary amount of contrition to really placate and understand that you have cosmically committed treason against the all powerful God of the universe.
[00:09:13] Jesse Schwamb: Who could stand underneath that kind of weight. And the answer is no one, but by the grace of God through Jesus. So it's amazing. That when we start to think about work, what we find is that God is first doing all of the work in us, and we see that the first work is not our work, but his work, the secondary work, this means of obedience, of showing, our gratitude of expressing praise and worship.
[00:09:37] Jesse Schwamb: Must, I think, necessarily be manifest in work that is labor of some kind, because God has first expressed himself in that kind of labor. And second, he's given it to us to do as an experience into his very being and his character, but also in service to him and to those who are around us. I promise I'm getting to all of this good stuff about what does this practically mean, but all this I think is so necessary for us.
[00:10:02] Jesse Schwamb: To really set the proper understanding for what it means to have good work to do and to do this work. So these good works provide no basis for boasting because they're utterly worthless to save. They have worth in other ways, but it just turns out they're worthless In this way. It's a bit like if you take your, take your, whatever your domestic currency is, whatever the currency you, you transact in, I live and hang out in the United States, so my currency is the US dollar.
[00:10:24] Jesse Schwamb: If I take a bunch of dollars with me and I go travel almost anywhere else in the world. There's a small chance they'll be accepted. And I realize I've picked the wrong currency for this metaphor at this point, but if I let, let's say, let's just pick a different one. Let's say that you live in Zimbabwe or you just happen to have a bunch of Zimbabwean dollars hanging out in your pocket.
[00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: I'm sure some of you do, and you take that currency and you come to the United States and you wanna go buy something, those dollars will not work. They just won't work. Nobody will accept them. They're worthless. They're without value. Now, do they have value? In a certain sense, of course they do. In that domestic currency, in that homeland they do.
[00:10:59] Jesse Schwamb: And in the same way, though, of course, slightly different here, our works are these expression of. Obedience of love for God. But the minute we try to exchange them for salvation, what we're gonna find is God says that's worthless here. And it again, is a fool's errand to build your entire life on some kinda system or belief that says, what I'm doing is earning these dollars, making these good works, performing these things.
[00:11:22] Jesse Schwamb: So I'll have gathered to myself all of this currency, which I'm then going to use to buy my salvation now, I think even in my own ears, that sounds ridiculous to say, and yet so many of us. Get caught up in that. And if we don't get caught up in whole, we sometimes get caught up in it peace wise, because again, we have a sense that, well, if I've been a particularly good Christian today, doesn't that mean that God is more happy with me?
[00:11:45] Jesse Schwamb: And Paul says, no, you have been saved as a gift of God. It is his gracious act that through faith you have been given salvation, and that faith was not of your own. That itself as well was a gift. It's gift upon gift upon gift. And so even the work itself is shaped. By the sense that all that God gives us and him doing all the verbs is his gifting.
[00:12:09] Jesse Schwamb: So good works are gonna provide no basis for boasting because they are worthless to save. And the only foundation for salvation is Christ, we're saved by his works, not ours. If you're looking for that good, that first, that perfect work, the thing that you could latch onto, the thing that you would say this, I'm gonna hang my hat.
[00:12:27] Jesse Schwamb: And all of my life on the work that you're looking for is not the one that you can accomplish. It is the one that Jesus has already done on your behalf. So that's why I always think when I see those W wait, they're not as prevalent anymore I suppose. But do you remember a time loved ones when like the ubiquity of the WAJD bracelet and I always thought about the question, what would Jesus do?
[00:12:49] Jesse Schwamb: And to me, the answer I give now somewhat tongue in cheek is everything and it's already been done. And so that is really the promise. The great blessing of the gospel that now we are saved for works and boy does that preposition make a difference. Like we should be underlining that, like putting that gilded gold in our Bibles like we are saved now for God works good, works are not bad then when they're seen as the goal of salvation, not its ground.
[00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: I wanna say that again because I think that might sound a little bit funny to some, but I've long really come to cherish this idea that it is the goal but not the ground. The goal, because it's worthwhile to want to worship God. And to obey him by doing good works. And Paul gives us an avenue in which to travel and to understand this and to reason it from the scripture so that we can be confident that that's exactly what God intends for us.
[00:13:37] Jesse Schwamb: And so again, while these good works aren't meritorious salvation, they are a necessary component of Christian faith. And the first important thing that we ought to mention here. Is that when we think about work, it's not that like the reform tradition, that that theological perspective has somehow elevated work for remuneration.
[00:13:55] Jesse Schwamb: I, I don't think that entirely was the whole emphasis of talking about vocation in that kind of theological sphere. That is, we have a bunch of Christians and they have to do work to survive, and some of them are cobblers and of them are cooks and some of them are cleaners. And so what we really need to do here is make sure that people understand that whatever you're getting paid for God has made you to do.
[00:14:15] Jesse Schwamb: And that is not a great thing. That's all true, but the goal wasn't just to elevate that style or type of work that is the work for which you get compensated. It was to elevate all work, all work of every kind, all labor of every kind, because God is big enough that every bit of labor paid or unpaid in direct service for somebody.
[00:14:34] Jesse Schwamb: Fortunately, there is no compensation or in service to someone for which there is that all of that work. It does give God glory if we mean it to. And so this is why they do all things. Whatever you do, whether you eat or whether you drink, all of even these tiny things roll up into this argument from the lesser to the greater all of work is for God's glory.
[00:14:53] Jesse Schwamb: And so to tip my hat a little bit here, then I think an answer to, to Brother Joshua's question, and in a nice compliment to what Tony and I were talking about last week, there is no end to the Christian's work. There's just different types of work. Oh, we'll get to that. I'm a little bit ahead of myself here.
[00:15:08] Jesse Schwamb: But of course we find in Ephesians two, it's important to understand this because there's so much of the dynamic of good works in the Christian life that are being explained there. And of course we learn that good works are the result and not the cause of being new creations, and they're testifying to the fact that we have been redeemed.
[00:15:24] Jesse Schwamb: So our lives might reflect craftsmanship and character of God. So amazing, isn't it? That God has given work, that work is not a four letter word, that labor is good labor of all kinds. Is good because it's reflecting the craftsmanship in character of God in unique ways. That is like apart from doing work from this work which God has called us to, from traveling in it through our lives and participating in all kinds of different work, that there's something that would be missing in our exemplifying, the craftsmanship in character of God.
[00:15:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so we see that apart from Christ. We can do nothing that pleases God, but in Christ. And here's a great promise. We are created to perform God honoring acts of obedience in Christ. We can be confident that God accepts our weak and wobbly efforts. You know, Paul further goes on to talk about good works, a result of God's pattern for the Christian life.
[00:16:15] Jesse Schwamb: We don't need to wonder what God requires from us. He's told us in his word, good works are deeds done in conformity to God's word. Now the beauty of that is. That we have this pattern for the Christian life in which Paul is saying, and I think this is really helpful for our conversation, that all of the things that God has given us to do, he's already prepared.
[00:16:39] Jesse Schwamb: He's already me and plus it. He's already set the table for us. He's already put all the things in place. He's already organized all the details. And he says that because he's done that we are now free to walk in them. And I interpret that walk as this idea, which I think is very particular to the way that Paul is writing here.
[00:16:57] Jesse Schwamb: It's a word of encouragement that is speaking of more of a marathon and rather a sprint. So of course, like a lot of times in the West, we think of our work as a season of life in which we're doing something in service for a company and for others, creating value, which is good. All of these things can be in service to God, of course, especially when they're in honoring.
[00:17:15] Jesse Schwamb: With a full counsel of the scriptures and that when we do those things, that time will end and then we start to think about what work do have left. Whereas really, of course, a more ancient way of thinking about work was that it never ceased. It was of different kinds, and we know it was of different kinds because of this idea of walking that is like you never says stop the walk.
[00:17:32] Jesse Schwamb: It never says take a break. It says you're gonna continue throughout your life in this metaphor of. Your journey of life being a walk, and as that walk changes, as the landscape undulates, as you move and transverse over different geographies on this walk in this metaphor, there's no doubt that the work will be different.
[00:17:50] Jesse Schwamb: And there may be a season when you no longer have to work and be compensated, but it doesn't mean, of course, that the work ends. In fact, the work is still there. It's a different kind. And we don't want it to go away, in fact, and we don't want it to feel, uh, like it should be a, a lesser thing because it's not because we've been given in this verse the sense that this is the pattern that's been given to us.
[00:18:12] Jesse Schwamb: It's the value of walking the pathway of obedience. And Paul makes it manifold. In fact, the Westminster Confession of Faith, which I'm 17 minutes in and you can mark your clock. That's the first time I mentioned it. I've gotten there already. Loved ones. Don't worry, we're always gonna bring in a confession.
[00:18:27] Jesse Schwamb: And on this week, it's the confession of faith from the Westminster states that there are at least six benefits of good work. So here these out, this is just my quick rundown of what the Westminster puts forward thinking about these good works and when you hear these benefits. Think about them in the broadest way.
[00:18:41] Jesse Schwamb: That is like, think about how these benefits apply to all kinds of work, not just like your nine to five, but like of course your family society and the church and your work there is needed both because it is an exemplification of obedience to Christ, but also because it is accomplishing good and creating value.
[00:18:58] Jesse Schwamb: So the first is that good works manifest our gratitude to God for the gift of his son. Now think about this. If that's true, that this in a concrete way. No matter what, we're able to do that we, if we're doing these good works, we're showing gratitude to God. Why would we ever want those good works to go away?
[00:19:14] Jesse Schwamb: Why do we wanna break that pattern? We don't want to. And again, this gives a, a high level, a high calling to all the things that we can do, both like again, in our paid work and then thereafter. Or even if we, we never have paid work that all of these things, there's something for us to do here and it manifests our gratitude to God and the gift of his son.
[00:19:32] Jesse Schwamb: The second thing is good work's, bolster assurances of faith. So it is the Christian who in obedience to Christ has a compulsion is as Paul would say elsewhere, hemmed in by the love of God to work towards a specific end in love and service toward others. That is a good work. And when we're doing that good work, there's a mutual kind of reinforcement that occurs that as we humble ourselves before God and that we work to.
[00:19:57] Jesse Schwamb: Or to obey him and that we walk in the good works that he has prepared for us, that we find that we are sure that God is who he is, that his character and craftsmanship is, is in fact manifest in us and demonstrated by us. And in this way as we worship him, we find that our faith grows. Especially perhaps when we're called to do things that are difficult or we're called to participate in work, especially in the church, that requires some kind of leap of faith and we're in so doing where we must trust God forthrightly.
[00:20:27] Jesse Schwamb: We find that doing those good works bolster our assurance of faith. Number three. Good works are a means of encouraging other Christians toward greater acts of Christ-centered love. There's so much in Hebrews chapter 10 that we could talk about there. This is an incredible idea that when we work towards obeying God laboring on his behalf in all of the spheres of life, to which he has given us to participate in that Christians receive this as a.
[00:20:55] Jesse Schwamb: Form of encouragement. You know, think about how you've seen the testifying work of somebody else in your church, in their patience, in their kind behavior. You know, we often speak about a person who is graceful, and by that of course, we mean there's a beauty to their outer movement, as it were. That's maybe they're a graceful dancer.
[00:21:11] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe they're a grace or a baseball player, but you'll find that you can apply this word in so many ways whenever you are trying to really show that somebody in their outward movements does things particularly well, or just with ease or in a way that conveys a certain kind of beauty. When we say that somebody is gracious, what we essentially mean is that there's a beauty to their inner movement that is, that the exemplification of who they are in Christ is so firmly rooted in solid, that the way they behave in situations and circumstances clearly shows.
[00:21:43] Jesse Schwamb: That there's something different about the way that they process the world and in the way that they work. And when we see that we are prone to be encouraged to see that God is real, that he does intervene and interact in situations that he does, in fact still do the most miraculous thing ever, which is take the sinner, take the gospel abuser, take the unregenerate, and perform that surgical movement.
[00:22:05] Jesse Schwamb: Where that heart of stone is replaced with one of flesh, it's the greatest miracle in the entire universe. And so when we're seeing that work exemplified, we're allowing ourselves to participate in encouraging our brothers and sisters. Fourth good works are concrete avenues for adorning the doctrine of God, our savior in life, in ministry.
[00:22:25] Jesse Schwamb: So again, it's uniting this idea of who we are, that we say we are, who we are in our transformation regeneration, marrying that up with work. And this is, again, why a. All of this reform of theology elevates work to this place of saying, whatever you do, you can do it to the glory of God and you ought to, you ought to be thinking that way because this is the way God intended all the things that we do to be done.
[00:22:47] Jesse Schwamb: So idea of like when Paul says, like, pray without ceasing, be constantly in the Lord. I think in some ways what he's saying is. When you shift your mindset to recognize that there are no mundane things to do because God has prepared all those things ahead of time, they're, they're mundane, maybe in their smallness, in our own like really myopic kind of human natural man perspective.
[00:23:06] Jesse Schwamb: They are certainly not mundane with respect to the power of love that may be communicated in them with the encouragement that flows out of them, and with the expression of gratitude for God, our savior and his son. All of those things are high and lifted up worthy of exaltation and call worthy of all of our efforts.
[00:23:23] Jesse Schwamb: And so there we find that there are really no mundane things. There are no small works as it were. There are just these small things that come alongside with the great work that God has done already in our lives and our expression of that first work that he has done. So Fifth Good Works, silence critics who devalue the goodness of biblical Christianity.
[00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: You know, there's a lot here that we could talk about. Jesus was so outspoken about what it meant for his followers to adorn themselves to be in Christ, and in so doing, they were gonna be these lights set on a, like a city on a hill for all to see. And sometimes as Christians, we get a little, eh, strange about this kind of thing, don't we?
[00:24:01] Jesse Schwamb: Because we, we wanna be careful that we need to be humble. You know, we, we want to make sure that as we're serving God, that we are not boasting in that in any kind of way, and yet there is something here where we ought to be giving and testifying to why we do certain things. I've been thinking about this a lot because I think it's one thing for us to say, well, we wanna live in such a manner.
[00:24:21] Jesse Schwamb: We wanna do our work in such a manner, whatever that is, so others know there's something different and, and this is noble and honorable. I think what's even better is to let them know why it's different. Sometimes you shouldn't wait for somebody to ask. You know, if it's clear that you're doing something and you wanna express why we're doing it, say, I'm, I'm doing this 'cause Jesus loves me, he's changed me, and Jesus loves you.
[00:24:39] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, this is okay to say loved ones. And I think in doing that, making that connection clear, what it's gonna do is it's going to make sure that those who would say like the, the Bible is antiquated out wounded document. It's a document that's filled with strife. It's a document that pits won't people against one another.
[00:24:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's a document that is not progressive enough. What they'll find instead is. When our good works, our truly good works are accompanied by a verbal testimony of why we do these works in obedience to God for, because of his great love for us. It will discredit those who would say all of those things. It turns away a.
[00:25:14] Jesse Schwamb: All of the critics would say that the Bible is, is not relevant, that Christians are too, uh, bigoted, that we are the kind of people that are too hypocritical. Instead, when we acknowledge that we are far from perfect, but that we have a perfect savior when we talk about our weak faith, but that our, the faith that we have is not in its size, but in the size of the savior.
[00:25:34] Jesse Schwamb: When we can say all these things alongside of our efforts to be obedient. Being humble, asking for forgiveness, seeking repentance from those whom we hurt, that in this way, we are again doing all of the things that are the theology of the cross, that even in our small weaknesses, even in our great failures, what we find is God does more than just to fill in the gaps He overflows with through the power of His Holy Spirit into a powerful testimony into the lives of others with whom we interact, and especially in the things that we do.
[00:26:05] Jesse Schwamb: So six. And lastly, this is from the Westminster. These benefits of good works. Last Good works glorify God by displaying his work of love in our lives. I think we often forget about this. That God has given us work because he loves us. Of course, God is always working. There's something beautiful about the fact that God is ever present in our lives working in our hearts.
[00:26:29] Jesse Schwamb: And sometimes of course, as the, the older reformers have said, he lays us over the Anil, as it were, and he hammers on us, and those are painful times. And other times he's really polishing up our sharp edges or sanding off those places where we need a little bit of attention. But everywhere he's working in us and what a blessing that he never stops, isn't it that he comes to us constantly because he loves us.
[00:26:51] Jesse Schwamb: He refuses to leave us in a state that is less than the abundant life. Now we know that we will never accomplish that, this side of glory. But what a benefit that God never gives up on us. That he continues to show his great love for us in how he attentively comes into our lives to hone us in this progressive sanctification, whereby his work doesn't stop.
[00:27:13] Jesse Schwamb: And so because his work doesn't stop. Neither does ours. So the beauty of this is for anybody else, for us, for brother Joshua, for those who are thinking about, you know, what if I, I want to maybe try to set aside more resources now so I can stop my work of re of compensation to do other things, I would say.
[00:27:31] Jesse Schwamb: Well, Godspeed by, by the power of God, I, I hope that happens for you. And what about those who would say, well, my work is gonna have to be caring for a loved one who's ill? I would say that is great and good work. What about those for who are retiring now or thinking about retirement? What's left? Tons. Of good work.
[00:27:48] Jesse Schwamb: I think we know this. Now, what about for those who are in the final stages of their life, those who are not ambulatory, maybe those who are weak, maybe those who are ill themselves. There is still good work because the work that God gives us is not the heavy kind that causes our bodies or our minds to be crushed in despair, to have to till the ground as it were in such a way that it leaves us lacking replenishment instead, even for those.
[00:28:16] Jesse Schwamb: Who are saying, what is my place when my body is wasting away?
[00:28:21] Jesse Schwamb: When I'm having a, a season of sickness and I feel like there's nothing I can do, there is so much that the church needs from you in particular, especially your work in prayer. And again, I think we've been outspoken. Prayer is absolutely a work.
[00:28:34] Jesse Schwamb: If you don't believe me, just. Try to pray. So just being able to participate in something like that, which is in many ways maybe the greatest calling. I, I always think about this phrase, when we work, we work, when we pray, God works. And so just the act of saying I'm gonna devote myself in prayer, in intercessory prayer for my church, for my community, for my family, is a kind of work that is unparalleled.
[00:28:58] Jesse Schwamb: And so if that's the work that God has given you to walk in right now. Then would you please do it? Because it is the season to which he's called you because he's with you on that journey. And Paul says, wherever you go, wherever you are walking, God has already prepared before you get to the next stop sign, before you get to the next wave point, before you get to the next pin drop.
[00:29:17] Jesse Schwamb: God has already prepared for you good works, and you're mealing to walk in them.
[00:29:22] Jesse Schwamb: And so the work of prayer by itself is the kind of work that is so glorious, like all the work of Christ that we find refreshment and it changes. There's a theme here, like all of our work changes because when we are doing it onto the Lord, we're doing it with him in mind when we're understanding that this is our obligation, but also our greatest privilege, that while it exhausts us.
[00:29:41] Jesse Schwamb: It exhausts us in a way that brings us the greatest kind of sleep or refreshment. Does that make sense? We ever had like a really great day at work where, you know, I, I worked hard and I did work worth doing, and in that I felt that there was a sweetness. In fact, Ecclesiastes five 12 says, sweet is the sleep of a laborer, whether he eats little or much, but the full stomach of the rich man will not let him sleep.
[00:30:05] Jesse Schwamb: This idea that. Why as we work, as we labor for God, that he does restore us, he gives us joy and satisfaction in that work. And again, there's this, all this mutual reinforcement, this kind of self-fulfilling and reinforcing idea that. When we are performing this work for God, he assures our faith. He refreshes us in it.
[00:30:24] Jesse Schwamb: He exhausts us in the best possible way so that we might love him more, cherish him more, encourage one another more, and to really come and understand his character more forthrightly.
[00:30:34] Jesse Schwamb: I like what Paul says in one Thessalonians chapter four, aspire to live quietly and to mind your own affairs. I mean, that's.
[00:30:42] Jesse Schwamb: Good advice for all of us, mind your own affairs and to work with your hands as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one. So we talked before about what it means, that really in our work, we ought to care for those who we love. We ought to make sure that we can provide for them, but there will also be seasons.
[00:30:59] Jesse Schwamb: One, there will be others who need to provide for us. And so in so doing, again, we're honoring God by walking in this path that he has given us, uh, to do. I like this. There's a couple of other great verses I think that are helpful for us to really think about what it means to have good work to do and to understand that good work.
[00:31:17] Jesse Schwamb: Here's from Acts chapter 20. Paul says, in all things I've shown you that by working hard in this way, we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus. How He himself said, it is more blessed to give than to receive. So think about that there. There is an expression right there about work and what is this working hard.
[00:31:35] Jesse Schwamb: It's to help the weak and to remember the words of Lord Jesus Christ. It is more blessed to give, to receive than to receive. Love always leads to giving for God. So love the world that he. Gave, and I think part of this good work that God calls us to is just giving. And so like right now, you may be in a season where you are giving of your labor in return for compensation, for that labor, but presumably there will, and there should come a time when you'll be giving it and you'll not be receiving that.
[00:32:00] Jesse Schwamb: But it doesn't lessen the work. It doesn't take it away. It doesn't mean that it's not necessary anymore. We ought to continue to pursue that because love always leads to giving. Now I want to just finish our short little time together today as we've reasoned, hopefully.
[00:32:15] Jesse Schwamb: In a profound way from the scriptures helping us to be encouraged in this work by just a couple of things that if you are thinking in the sense of what can I do right now in my work of all kinds to exemplify and to be driven by unique view of humanity and a love rooted in the wisdom of the cross to stand out, what, what can we do as Christians, practically speaking.
[00:32:37] Jesse Schwamb: To take everything that Paul has just given us here, appreciating this beautiful pattern that work is just gonna be part of our lives forever. And by the way, loved ones I, I have a strong conviction that in the new heavens and new Earth, that work will still be present there in a fully orbed and fully expressed, fully realized way that it's not capable today because of everything being mined by sin.
[00:32:59] Jesse Schwamb: But then we're gonna find that this is just like an amm bush. It's the taste that. The thing that's coming for us, the appetizer of how work is gonna be fully satisfying, fully encouraging, fully joyful, and a full expression of how God has made us to do things. One of those things again are laboring in prayer, laboring on the construction site, laboring on a desk, laboring in the education and the teaching and ammunition of children.
[00:33:24] Jesse Schwamb: All of these things are just really, really good. So what are a couple of things that we can do? Well, here's some things that that come to my mind. The first is that I think Christians can be known as the most care fairing and committed kind of people. So. Think about it this way, driven by the father's love and his acceptance of us through Jesus, we can be the kind of people that are known as fair, caring, and committed to others.
[00:33:52] Jesse Schwamb: Since we know the depths of our own sin and the magnitude of God's grace to us, we can be ready to forgive and reconcile with others, and we should be quick to do so if we're doing that in their work environments. Whatever that environment is, there's no doubt this is gonna draw some fair amount of attention.
[00:34:07] Jesse Schwamb: We may actually, and this is gonna sound a little bit wild. We may even have opportunities to take risks for the benefit of others. Now imagine it this way. Let's say that everybody has somebody to whom they're responsible and almost everybody else has somebody who's responsible to them. So think of it this way, if you are leading any kind of group of people, formerly or informally, you may have a unique opportunity to take risks on the behalf of those people.
[00:34:30] Jesse Schwamb: Now, that may be may mean advocating for them. It could mean yielding to them, even if you have a hierarchical position that's above them. But more than anything, it could mean that you actually take a risk to take responsibility at times. So it's possible that let's say you're a leading a team and you're a place of work, and one of the people who is responsible to you, that is one of the people who reports to you, makes a mistake.
[00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Let's say that the person that you are responsible to, your boss finds out about this. There's lots of ways you could go about this. Now, you may feel that you want to be easy just to say, well, this wasn't me. It was their fault. But consider how a Christian might approach this in love. It's possible that it may be entirely appropriate for that leader to take responsibility for the mistake, not taking blame for it, but taking responsibility for it as an act and expression of what it means to be fair, caring, and committed to others.
[00:35:20] Jesse Schwamb: And now this may mean that if you were that person, you might lose a little bit of cloud to the organization. You might use a little bit of reputation or ability to maneuver within the organization, but there could be a very powerful, could be testimony in your ability to risk yourself for others in a way that I believe, again, is walking in this path of good works and that you are reasonable people.
[00:35:41] Jesse Schwamb: You can sort out, I think in a situation like that. What kind of responsibility you might have, but I think it's important for us to consider that we may have that kind of responsibility and that to be known as fair, caring and committed to others. To advocate for them to again, forgive and to reconcile, and then sometimes to take risks of opportunity for the benefit of others is something that is unique to the Christian.
[00:36:00] Jesse Schwamb: I think we at least agree on that, that kind of response to a s. We'll be wholeheartedly unique.
[00:36:06] Jesse Schwamb: I think we also need to be known as generous and depending on the context and opportunity, generosity at work can be expressed in so many different ways. Managers can be generous with their advice, their access, their investment in people.
[00:36:17] Jesse Schwamb: All of us can be generous with our time, our money sharing our resources. Sacrificially. If you're a small business owner, and this is gonna sound wild, but let's, let's talk about kingdom living for a second. Loved ones like I presumably you're listening to this because we're not just satisfied with the small things.
[00:36:31] Jesse Schwamb: We wanna think big in what it means. For the gospel to go out, for Jesus to be known. And so in this context of being generous, maybe it means if you're a small business owner, that you're willing to take less personal profit to benefit your neighbors or your customers or your employees. You know, I think of this company called a Go.
[00:36:47] Jesse Schwamb: Which is a wooden toy company and it's, it was founded by a couple of Christians and driven by their Christian faith. They intentionally take smaller profit margins to benefit the people of Honduras where the wood is sourced and to create an employee savings program for them. I mean, that what a remarkable thing what, what a counter-cultural expression of what it means to be doing good.
[00:37:08] Jesse Schwamb: Work. And so we can also grow and show our generosity to our colleagues by loving them outside work. You know, cooking a meal, preparing a meal for them when they have a child or attending a funeral if they lose a loved one, grabbing dinner with them if they're struggling, joining their club sports team, attending their wedding.
[00:37:23] Jesse Schwamb: You know, generosity during, after work hours is a testimony of love. It shows that you see them as a whole person, not merely as like a productive asset or just a colleague. So I think we should push back a little bit on being generous and maybe sometimes I, I wanna say this. Gently because we are a benefit ourselves in this podcast of this, but not just with your money, especially with your time and maybe with like your attentional focus, maybe with your prayer time.
[00:37:47] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe with your labor, in your prayer closet, that of all the things you could focus on, how often are we praying for our colleagues, like really praying that they would come to see the gospel in us, that we would be courageous in expressing that gospel and that God would arrest their hearts, which snatch them up and bring them into his kingdom so that all of our workplaces would be filled, uh, with Christians, that they would be everywhere.
[00:38:08] Jesse Schwamb: Doing all kinds of things in som, much as God calls us to those things in submission to him, an expression of who he is and in obedience to what he's done for us. Here's another thing. I think this is a big one. It's one that I struggle with in my own life.
[00:38:23] Jesse Schwamb: So I think another place, another way in which we can really stand out as Christians in our good work is to be known as calm.
[00:38:30] Jesse Schwamb: Poised in the face of difficulty, failure or struggle. This might be the most telling way to judge if a person is drawing on the resources of the gospel and the development of their character. And this goes back to this idea of like, what does the a voracious person mean? It's, it's somebody who has like that inner.
[00:38:47] Jesse Schwamb: Beauty expression of inner inner beauty. You know, how do we act when our boss passes over us for a promotion? How do we act if we fail to get that bonus we expected or, or if like a colleague is placed on a team we want to be on, how do we respond to those things really reveals where we placed our hope and identity.
[00:39:03] Jesse Schwamb: And that can be a whole nother. Podcast. But if it's true that we have rooted ourselves, grounded ourselves, securely in Christ, then that is the supreme treasure that we have, and then everything else should be like, oh, that's no big deal. It's not to say that we're not gonna have big emotions, but even as we experience those big emotions, part of what it means to be humble is to come before God and say, God, I'm feeling this way.
[00:39:26] Jesse Schwamb: And I'm a contingent being and I'm upset about this. Would you help me to reveal your gospel in this situation? And what a blessing in our progressive sanctification where God moves us into that space so that what becomes normative is when everybody else is losing their minds, when everybody else is gossiping, when everybody else is complaining.
[00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: What everybody else is pushing back here is the Christian who is resolute in firm and is speaking words of life. Encouragement into their workplace or those whom they're doing their work, who is speaking the gospel to them, who is calm and is poised and is ready to lead in such a way that brings value to everybody, helps 'em to find the true security in the situation and is not willing to compromise by participating in a meaningless backtalk.
[00:40:12] Jesse Schwamb: That is an incredible testimony, and there's no doubt it's gonna cause us to stand out. There is something about this placing value that I think is important to mention. And I think I mentioned this before, but Tony's not here and I'm just talking. And so my experience, my professional career is all in the realm of finance.
[00:40:30] Jesse Schwamb: So I've gotta use this because I think about this a lot and it's certainly relevant to us thinking about where is our value.
[00:40:38] Jesse Schwamb: I find it so interesting. That in the sermon on the mound. And when Jesus is speaking about treasures, he doesn't completely say that we should forsake treasures. Have you ever thought about that?
[00:40:50] Jesse Schwamb: So instead of saying, you know, listen, don't worry about the treasure, just focus on me. Don't try to go after things. Just focus on me. And somebody says, listen. Listen, listen. You're going after the wrong treasure. So don't go after treasure where you know a moth or Russ is gonna destroy it or where like you're gonna be worried.
[00:41:09] Jesse Schwamb: A thief is gonna break in and steal it. All those things are not just temporal, they can be taken from you. In fact, they, they will be taken from you. This is the wild part to me. He says instead, rather than do that, here's what you should do. Seek after the treasure that's in heaven. In other words, the proclivity to want to grab hold of valuable things and to keep them close to you, that is not bad in and of itself.
[00:41:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's that you are focusing on the wrong thing that you want to grab and hold close. Seek after those treasures in heaven. And I can tell you why. This just shows the brilliancy with which Jesus knows us because he has created us loved ones, and in our fallen state, he's so kind to condescend to be like us, yet of course, without sin.
[00:41:50] Jesse Schwamb: And in that he expresses a great knowledge of who we are and how we are. So. There's a very famous study done, actually very many versions of this study done, and what they'll do, and you can play along, I know I've done this before, but as you're sitting there listening to my voice play along with the scenario that I'm about to give you, and you can answer for yourself what you would do in this situation.
[00:42:11] Jesse Schwamb: There's no right or wrong answer. So here's the situation. Researchers gave per people two options. They said, you, I can either give you a thousand dollars for sure, or. Or we can play a game. We'll flip a coin. If the coin is heads, you get $2,000, but if the coin comes up, tails, you get nothing. So the choices were you could have a sure thousand dollars or you could risk it.
[00:42:39] Jesse Schwamb: And with a coin flip, a fair coin flip, you could get either $2,000 or zero. Now I'll pause. What would you prefer if you're like most people? You would take the sure $1,000 because you'd rather have for sure a thousand dollars in your pocket than giving up the gamble. Even though you could get twice as much the gamble of $2,000 or zero, who wants to walk away with zero when somebody's like, I'll give you a thousand dollars for certain.
[00:43:06] Jesse Schwamb: Most people would prefer the certainty. Now those who are like keen have a turn of mind for mathematics are gonna realize that on average, those two options are exactly the same. So whether you get a thousand dollars. For certain, you got the a thousand dollars on the other option, half the time you'll get zero.
[00:43:23] Jesse Schwamb: Half the time you'll get a $2,000. If you average those out, that's sequel to a thousand dollars over the long term. So there's something interesting there too, isn't it? See how our minds are working that we prefer, we are loss averse. In other words, we do not like loss. In fact, there's a very famous.
[00:43:39] Jesse Schwamb: Theorem about this that says the pain of losing a dollar is twice as great as the pain of gaining one. And this is why it's so hard. If you have a retirement account, you have investments somewhere. When you look at your accounts and the numbers are down, you feel particularly awful. And when they're up, you feel good, but not that great.
[00:43:54] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, this is the idea of. Being a loss averse. Now, here's the other thing that these researchers did. They flipped the whole scenario, and I'm gonna give you one more thing to think about. So rather than talking about gains, they said these people, okay, here's your choice, and you have to choose one of these.
[00:44:09] Jesse Schwamb: Either you can take a sure loss of a thousand dollars, or you can take a gamble. And you can take a, we'll flip a coin and if it comes up heads, you'll lose $2,000. But if it comes up tails, you will lose zero. So again, here are the two options, but now we're talking about losses. You either have to take a loss of a thousand dollars for certain, or you could take the gamble, flip a fail fair coin, and you could lose $2,000 or you might lose nothing if it comes up tails.
[00:44:42] Jesse Schwamb: Now what would you do? Now if you're like most people, what these researchers found is people gravitated toward taking the risk. That is, they chose the option when they said, let me flip the coin, because at least if I flip the coin, there's a chance I might not lose anything. I know I might lose $2,000, but I would rather take the risk of losing 2000, but have the opportunity to lose nothing than take the sure loss of a thousand dollars.
[00:45:05] Jesse Schwamb: So here's what's crazy about all this. Here's what it teaches us, is we make the wrong choices all the time. You know, technically speaking, when it comes to gains, we should prefer the risk, the risk of zero, because you started out with zero, so you're not better. You're not worse off by having zero, and if you win, you get $2,000.
[00:45:22] Jesse Schwamb: But when it comes to the loss, we should take the sure loss of a thousand dollars because we might end up having a loss of $2,000. We tend to behave poorly given the situations. This is an example of loss aversion and risk aversion, and Jesus knows this. That's the brilliance of it, of course, because he says, I know that your hearts will be troubled by losing your treasure.
[00:45:45] Jesse Schwamb: So here's the thing. It's not the treasure that's bad, it's that you're putting your faith, you're going after the wrong thing. So loved ones. When we find ourselves rooted in Christ, when we find our identity right there in him, when we are sure that all that we have is in the heavenly realms and therefore everything else can float and fl away, then we find ourselves able to be the kind of people in our workplaces where we're calm, poised in the face of difficulty failure, or all kinds of challenges.
[00:46:14] Jesse Schwamb: One more thing I would encourage you with, and that is just be known as authentic and integrated. This goes back to something Tony and I have really challenged ourselves with so much, and that is some Christians aren't very open about their faith at work and others talk about it all the time, but act and speak in ways that marginalize nonbelievers.
[00:46:30] Jesse Schwamb: We should, of course, be really wise about how we share the reason for the hope that we're, we have when we're at work. But staying silent isn't an option. If we wanna be authentic people, we have to bring our whole selves to work. I think this is where we all, at times could use a little work. I, I've barely been encouraged by brothers and sisters who are far better at this than I, where.
[00:46:50] Jesse Schwamb: They're really good at explaining why they do something, and perhaps they've been building a relationship with non-believers, serving them, working with them. And, but when the right opportunity approaches when the moment arrives, they're right there with their explanation. They're quick to say, it's because Jesus loves me.
[00:47:06] Jesse Schwamb: They're quick to talk about the transforming power of the gospel. And it's not in a way that's overbearing. It's not in a way that seems disingenuous or somehow like they're, they're shoehorning in some kind of, you know, bully pulpit testimony. Instead, it's a natural expression. Because they were ready and willing and brave.
[00:47:22] Jesse Schwamb: To do that. So we've got to be known as authentic and integrated, and that integration is just as important as the authenticity. What, what is the good, what is the point of doing many of these good works if there is not a commensurate explanation or expression of why we are doing them, because. Plenty of people who are non-believers also do good work.
[00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: This is part of the common grace that God has given to all of our world and to the entire universe writ large. So in that being said, sometimes we just need to say, this is why I'm doing it. And it's possible that probably people are sometimes thinking, I have no idea why this person is doing this, but I'm not gonna ask them.
[00:47:57] Jesse Schwamb: 'cause that's super weird. So by us stepping forward and saying, listen, I love you, God is good to me, uh, there there's a God over the universe who saved me. I was in this pit of despair and he's taken me out of that pit. My work, the things I do, I do now for him. I do it not just because I wanna provide for my family, but because I love God.
[00:48:16] Jesse Schwamb: I want to be obedient in worshiping him, and part of how I worship him is doing my work this particular way. That's why you see me. Work like this. What a beautiful thing. Loved ones.
[00:48:25] Jesse Schwamb: So there's so much I think for us to think about here. I could go on and on, and at this point, this is no longer a short episode.
[00:48:32] Jesse Schwamb: You've gotten almost 50 minutes of me just talking. So I want to thank some people for good works right now. And that is. For those of you who have joined in the Telegram chat and are hanging out. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And there's so much good conversation going on there. Again, I gotta plug it.
[00:48:48] Jesse Schwamb: If you haven't, if you're not in there, you're really missing out on this experience. It's not just hearing Tony and I talk. It's coming alongside and being integrated with all kinds of other brothers and sisters. So do yourself and us a favor and go to T Me Rhyme, see t me slash reform brotherhood and come hang out with us in addition.
[00:49:10] Jesse Schwamb: I'm so grateful for all those who contribute to the podcast financially to make sure that just keeps going. If you've ever wondered like, how is this all free, and there's a website where I can go surf the back catalog@reformbrotherhood.com and it just shows up in my podcast feed, and it doesn't sound like they're in a tin can somewhere or in a hurricane recording this.
[00:49:28] Jesse Schwamb: How does all of that happened? It happens because there's so many lovely brothers and sisters who's come alongside and said. Yeah, you know what? After all my responsibilities, I have a little bit left over and I wanna make sure that this thing just continues to keep going. And so I say to you, thank you so much.
[00:49:43] Jesse Schwamb: If you would like to be a part of that and I challenge you, come join us in giving toward the podcast, Tony and I do. And there's somebody I love, our brothers and sisters who do as well. That's what makes this happen. You can go to patreon.com, reformed brotherhood, so we've got all kinds of good stuff coming up.
[00:49:59] Jesse Schwamb: I love the fall season, autumn in the Western hemisphere here, because it feels like a reset in many ways. Like the kids go back to school, the weather changes depending on where you are, the leaves fall to the ground. It feels like there's all of this, that kind of glorious newness that's happening.
[00:50:14] Jesse Schwamb: There's death and there's revival, there's new life. And so also for us on the podcast, because we've got a great. Great series coming up and while I am sworn contractually to secrecy on what that topic is, especially 'cause Tony's not here, he would never want me to disclose it without him present because we've been excited as we've been brainstorming it together.
[00:50:33] Jesse Schwamb: We've never talked about these things. What we're the series we've done, we've never done before. It's possible. We may have talked around and referenced some we're about to have a conversation on, but it's gonna be great and you're gonna wanna hang out. So keep doing the good work, loved ones, keep walking in the path of righteousness.
[00:50:50] Jesse Schwamb: Keep walking on that journey knowing that God all along the way has already prepared good works for you to do because he loves you and because this is our opportunity to worship him together and everything that we do. So keep doing that stuff and we'll hang out again very, very soon. But until we do that, do this.
[00:51:12] Jesse Schwamb: Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.
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In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse explore the complex relationship between Christian vocation and professional ambition. Moving beyond the obvious prohibition of inherently sinful professions, they examine whether certain legitimate careers might still be inappropriate for Christians if they compromise our responsibilities to family and church. The hosts challenge the common assumption that Christians should seek maximum worldly influence, suggesting instead that faithfulness in our threefold calling—to work, family, and church—should guide our vocational choices. Drawing on Reformed theology's rich understanding of vocation, they offer practical wisdom for believers navigating career decisions and workplace responsibilities while maintaining spiritual priorities in a culture that often glorifies professional success at any cost.
The hosts challenge the idea that Christians should prioritize career advancement and influence above all else. They argue that vocation in the Reformed tradition encompasses more than just our paid work—it includes our responsibilities to family and church as well. This means that even if a career opportunity seems beneficial for "kingdom influence," we must evaluate whether it allows us to fulfill our other God-given duties. Tony points out that while some professions clearly contradict Christian ethics, others may subtly undermine our ability to be faithful in all areas of life. A high-powered executive role might provide platforms for influence but could require such time commitments that family relationships suffer or regular Lord's Day worship becomes impossible. As Jesse observes, "vocation is fundamentally God's doing," not simply about finding personal fulfillment or maximizing impact. This framework helps believers evaluate career choices more holistically.
A central question emerges throughout the episode: Should Christians pursue positions of maximum influence to advance kingdom values? While this idea sounds appealing, the hosts suggest it often masks a "theology of glory" rather than embracing the "theology of the cross." Jesse notes that "God doesn't call us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is faithfulness." They distinguish between the transformative power of the gospel—which can be proclaimed regardless of position—and other ways of transforming culture through worldly influence. Tony explains that "whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same." This perspective challenges Christians to reconsider whether pursuing leadership positions always aligns with God's calling, especially when such roles might compromise other spiritual obligations. The hosts argue that faithfulness in ordinary circumstances, not exceptional influence, should be our primary aim.
"Would it be great if the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. But if the trade-off is that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, that's not worth it." - Tony Arsenal
"I do think we have to sit back and ask, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential... I think there is a real temptation to somehow say like, what we need to do is to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things here will be better." - Jesse Schwamb
"I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family, or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day... than it is on something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level." - Tony Arsenal
The hosts suggest several practical considerations for Christians evaluating career opportunities:
[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 458 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:16] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where even your work is unto the glory of God. Hey brother. Hey
[00:00:24] Jesse Schwamb: brother. You know that's right. It
[00:00:26] Tony Arsenal: is. That's why I said it.
[00:00:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it was. That's a great way to open. We, I think from time to time come back to the topic of work and we've got a great, I think, conversation in the queue for this particular episode.
[00:00:39] Jesse Schwamb: Now it's gonna sound maybe on the face. Right off the top here. Familiar. So of course, like we've talked before, how scripture makes it clear that Christians are to be salt and light in the world. And we've talked, I think, at length about, well, how exactly do we carry out that? And though we know that we're not saved by our good works.
[00:00:57] Jesse Schwamb: Again, the Bible teaches very clearly that God expects good works from Christians, that that is in fact what he saves us to do. Again, we're not saved by those good works, but the question I think still remains, and we're gonna come to it in this conversation about what exactly does he want us to do and where does he want us to do it.
[00:01:13] Jesse Schwamb: So in other words, we know that according to scripture, God providentially, governs and cares for his entire creation. So how does that play out in human society given the reality of sin? So we're gonna get to topics like. Well, should Christians be in every line of work? Is that the ideal? Are there jobs or positions or responsibilities that seemingly may not be obvious that Christians really shouldn't be a part of?
[00:01:37] Jesse Schwamb: Because it takes them too far afield, maybe from the responsibilities that God gives us holistically to think of our calling is and our families and our churches in our work. So it's a bit more nuanced play of a conversation we had before, but hopefully something that's gonna have all kinds of practicality wrapped around it.
[00:01:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So that's what's coming.
[00:01:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked. I think this is gonna be a good conversation and I think I, I think this is one of those topics where like there's a lot of different angles to come at it from, right? We talk about vocation and work, and we've had those conversations before, and I think other shows and other venues have had that conversation before.
[00:02:15] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that I've encountered a conversation really to this like angle of it. So I'm looking forward to this.
[00:02:23] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. It's gonna be great. And of course, before we get to all that goodness, all that greatness, which I'm sure is about to transpire shortly and will be of course the definitive conversation, the one to end all to, I guess both to your point, bring it into the world.
[00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Then to shut it down because we'll have accomplished both ends in just a single hour.
[00:02:41] Jesse Schwamb: Before we get to that, let's do some affirming or denying. This is the part of our conversation where you and I always pick one thing either that we're affirming with and kind of the tradition of the reformed faith, where we take something that's undervalued or something that excites us, we think has great merit or worth, and we put out into the world and say, we're standing behind this thing, or conversely, we deny against it in that same kind of tradition by saying, this thing is overvalued, not worth it.
[00:03:05] Jesse Schwamb: Not our jam. So in our tradition, I ask you are you affirming with something or are you not against something?
[00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming with something specific that will lead to something general. So, okay.
[00:03:16] Tony Arsenal: I mentioned a couple weeks ago that I've been playing around with Google Gemini, which is Google's AI platform.
[00:03:22] Tony Arsenal: And uh, I've been using it in a sort of interesting way. So Google has, uh, Gemini has these things called gems, which are basically like predefined personalities or predefined. I dunno, like instructions. So they have one gem that is a learning guide where basically you can give it a topic and it will, it will deliver mini lectures, give you quizzes, you can prompt it.
[00:03:46] Tony Arsenal: So like I can paste in, um, you know, I can take in Lagos, I can paste a copy of the Bible, like a chapter of the Bible into the learning guide. It'll summarize it, it'll ask me questions. It'll basically gimme many lectures on it. Um, that's the specific thing. This is such a cool technology. And in my mind, this is really where AI is strong, is that you can take large sections of text and it will summarize it and synthesize it into a very usable format.
[00:04:14] Tony Arsenal: Um, so what I've been doing, like I said, is I'll read, I'll read a, a chunk of text from whatever it is I'm reading, and then I'll copy and paste that entire chunk of text if it's an electronic text into the learning. Learning guide module and ask it to act as like a seminary lecturer and quiz me on the content.
[00:04:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, which really helps to solidify the content I'm reading rather than just passing my eyes over it. I'm actually, um, processing it and retaining it more. I think you could probably do something similar with just about any AI platform if you had the right kind of prompt, which is where the general one comes in.
[00:04:50] Tony Arsenal: And I would encourage you, listener to think a little bit about how you might utilize this, because I think we all read lots and lots of things. Our, our, um, particular audience tends to be a little bookish, and so I'm sure we're all reading things as we go, but I'm not sure we're always processing things in the most effective way.
[00:05:07] Tony Arsenal: So think a little bit about like how you might use something like chat, GPT, which is available for free, or Claude, which is available for free to do this kind of like. Almost like simulated classroom lecture. Um, and I know there are some questions about ai. Like I, I heard an argument that ai, when you're generating content is, is a sort of form of sophisticated, uh, plagiarism, which I'm not sure I buy it, but I understand the argument.
[00:05:33] Tony Arsenal: This is something very different where you're really just using the, using the AI to synthesize and summarize text and sort of spit it back to you in a new format. Um, you're not trying to generate anything new. You're not trying to create anything. That you're gonna publish or anything like that. It's really just a, a form of synthesis.
[00:05:49] Tony Arsenal: So I've really found this to be super beneficial. Um, I'm having a really great time at it. I'm, I'm using it for language studies, so I'm reading through mount's basics, biblical Greek. And I'll copy and paste the whole chapter in, ask it to act as a lecturer, and it will walk me through the chapter. It'll stop to do quizzes.
[00:06:08] Tony Arsenal: It'll drill me on vocab as I'm going. And then when, when I up, the instruction I get is, don't move forward until you are convinced that I've mastered the content. And so when I get something wrong, it goes back and makes me redo it. So it continues to iterate until it's, until the AI has. Synthesize that I have mastered the content, and then it asks me to provide the next chapter.
[00:06:30] Tony Arsenal: So it's a cool technology. It's a, it's a sort of novel use for the technology. Um, again, Google has built in modules that do this, but I think you could probably use chat, GPT or Claude or Orrock or whatever AI model you're using to accomplish the same goal.
[00:06:45] Jesse Schwamb: There's no doubt that AI is great for like building study notes, helping you create space, repetition, all those like little hacks that we have long talked about.
[00:06:53] Jesse Schwamb: And this provides it to you in a really bespoke course customized way, but it gets you involved. I'm with you if you wanna do this the old fashioned way. I'll go back to something I I've affirmed with before and that's this very famous book originally authored in the 1940s called How to Read a Book by Mor Mortimer, j Adler, and that is an exercise.
[00:07:13] Jesse Schwamb: Helping you do some of that stuff in real time as well. Yeah, so I think there'd be a lovely compliment to say you're reading actively and then you get to test immediately that active reading by way of using ai. So even before, like, maybe even just jumping to like, well, let me read it, but I'm, I'm gonna trust that AI's gonna really kind of supplement me or fill in the gaps and just gimme what I need to know.
[00:07:33] Jesse Schwamb: Trying to do that in real time. Pausing in your reading. Again, kind of studying as you go along, thinking out loud through what you've just read and then saying, alright, now test me is a great way to, 'cause who wants to like read stuff unless you can remember this stuff and then unless you can apply it, right?
[00:07:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. So it's such a joy to be able to read things and then to remember. And if you haven't had that experience yet, I like your affirmation. I think this is a great way to test it out.
[00:07:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, just to maybe flesh this out. So I, I asked it to, and I'm, I'm doing this sort of as an experiment just to see how it works, but also just 'cause it's, it's useful.
[00:08:06] Tony Arsenal: I asked it to act as a seminary lecturer and I copied and paste the entire first chapter of the Westminster Confession. And rather than split it up by section and actually combined paragraphs that were. Um, related to each other. So it combined the list of Bible, uh, books, and then the chapter on apocrypha and gave me some like lectures.
[00:08:25] Tony Arsenal: But here's what it said about, um, about chapter 10. It says, paragraph 10, declares the supreme judge can be no other than the Holy Spirit speaking scripture. This is the ultimate outworking of sola Scripture, means that every other authority is lesser authority that must submit to the judgment of the word of God.
[00:08:42] Tony Arsenal: This includes decrees of church counsels. Opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, private spirits. It goes on for a little while longer. Then it says, I will give you a brief final quiz covering the whole of chapter one, and it asks questions like A historian makes the following claim. The Bible only has authority.
[00:08:59] Tony Arsenal: It does because influential councils in the early church, like the Council of Carthage officially voted on which books would be included in the cannon. The church therefore gave the Bible its authority drawing from your knowledge of paragraphs three, uh, three, four, and five. Provide a two-part critique of the historian statement.
[00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Which then I had to type it out. It critiqued, um, it analyzed my answer. Um, I happened to get that question right. I did at one point think maybe this is actually just like finding a way to say everything that I say is right. So I purposely put a wrong answer in and it did identify that the answer was wrong, and then it made me go back and revisit that content.
[00:09:35] Tony Arsenal: So it's very, it's a very cool use case. I'm glad that Google kind of built this in. They have all sorts of other gems. If you have, if you have a way to get access to Google Gemini, um. It's not the best AI for everything, but it's got, it's pretty versatile. It's got a lot of utility, so check it out.
[00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that sounds great.
[00:09:53] Jesse Schwamb: Again, there's all kinds of fun things I think we could be using AI for to help us be better learners or to really enjoy our interaction with data and information more. Yeah. It is a really great way to conversationally help you to learn something, and that's what makes it so much better. It stands way far apart from, again, just leading, just reading or just creating flashcards or even just, just creating study notes, but that back and forth to test you on something, even if it's just like casual knowledge that you can really want to internalize.
[00:10:21] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I found that to be super valuable. Again, like, man, if you're a learner, if you're a reader, if you're a human being, what an amazing time to live in the world where data is so prevalent, but it's increasingly being brought into a place where we can put our arms around it in a way in which we're trying to really understand it.
[00:10:38] Jesse Schwamb: You know, I think about how we used to search for something, I mean. Used to like this that like, that wasn't like last year. You know what I mean? Like we just go on to our, your favorite search engine. Type in a topic or maybe type in even a specific question. And at best you'd have to sort through this litany, this plethora, this morass of all these links about articles that may pertain to what you asked.
[00:10:58] Jesse Schwamb: Or maybe they pertain to it generally, but not really specifically. Yeah. The specificity with which you can have a conversational interaction that engenders knowledge is wild. I mean, I really think that is like the huge play of ai. Just lean into it and enjoy it.
[00:11:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight?
[00:11:16] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going a totally different direction. It's an affirmation, but I'm taking it from my ears, nose, nose, and throat doctor who affirmed this to me, so I might be totally late on this. There are very few things that I can say like somebody's recommended to me or affirm. It's been like absolute game changer, like just drop dead from the first moment I used it or employed the thing that it just changed everything.
[00:11:38] Jesse Schwamb: This is one of those things. Which maybe I've just already oversold, but the affirmation is with something called it's, it's spelled X-L-E-A-R, I think it's still pronounced clear, but it's called literally phonetically XL nasal spray, and it's a. This doesn't sound very exciting, but bear with me everybody.
[00:11:57] Jesse Schwamb: It's a natural, non-addictive saline nasal spray featuring Zi Atol as its primary active ingredient. So if you're not familiar with Zi Atol, which I wasn't until I went to my ENT by the way I've seen for many years and only just recommended this to me. So I had some words 'cause I was working, where's this been all my life.
[00:12:14] Jesse Schwamb: But Zito is a naturally occurring alcohol sugar. It's found in like many fruits and vegetables, and it can be commercially produced from like birch wine or corn fiber. It looks and tastes similar to like table sugar, but it contains fewer calories, so it can be used and is often used as like a sweetener in sugar-free foods like chewing gum, mint candies, jam, stuff like that.
[00:12:35] Jesse Schwamb: Here's one of the strange side effects. That they notice though about Zi atol, and that is it totally, uh, cleanses, moisturizes and soos nasal passages. And it gives you all kinds of relief from like common congestion stuff like colds, allergies, low humidity, humidity, science, pressure, stuff like that. What it does is it actually breaks down or lubricates your inner nasal passages, including like flushing out the mucus. like it works actually with your body. So what's amazing is it's, it's really great for, it's kinda like a soap for the nose. It clears up bacteria, pollens, dander, molds, like all kinds of irritants.
[00:13:14] Jesse Schwamb: It also studies have shown blocks, adhesion of other pathogens like bacterial, fungal, viral to the mucosal tissues, helping the body to wash them away. So
[00:13:23] Jesse Schwamb: this thing is absolutely. Wild. And I can say for certain that if you're the kind of person like me, where let's say like you're, you're hitting the Flonase hard at different seasons because you got those seasonal allergies because of the fall and because sin is real. I'm with you. That dries out your nose.
[00:13:42] Jesse Schwamb: This thing is like a, a sauna or a spa for your nose, and then it literally like clears everything out. It's almost magical. I, I'm serious. It's so fantastic. So if you've been looking for something to really help with that and it, again, it's safe. There's no drug in it. It's not addictive, so you can use it all the time.
[00:13:58] Jesse Schwamb: It's just saline and zi etol. It is phenomenal. So go get yourself, do yourself a favor. Do, do your, do your nose and your sinuses a solid and, and get the solids outta them by using. X clear. I feel like a bat just flew by your face or like a giant bird.
[00:14:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So, uh, first of all, that sounds like a really great thing to check out.
[00:14:22] Tony Arsenal: Is this clear stuff? Um, I have had struggles with like sinus infections over the last couple years, so I'm gonna check this out when it gets to allergy season in the fall year.
[00:14:32] Tony Arsenal: But yes, uh, one of the rare, uh, moths that I've learned lives near my house is called a, uh, what's it called? Uh. It commonly, it's called like a hummingbird moth.
[00:14:44] Tony Arsenal: Have you heard of these things? Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, I've never seen them before, but the reason they're called hummingbird moths is 'cause they look like hummingbirds, but they're actually moths and I right now. Hopefully this will change eventually, but. It will have to, 'cause it gets cold here. Um, I'm recording outside and a hummingbird moth literally just flew between my computer and my face.
[00:15:05] Tony Arsenal: Um, I wasn't talking at the time so you wouldn't be able to see it on the screen, which is too bad. Uh, but yeah, Jesse saw me freak out a little bit, which is uh, which is fine.
[00:15:16] Jesse Schwamb: It happened the
[00:15:16] Tony Arsenal: first time I saw one. I was like, is that a huge bee? No, it's just a hummingbird broth.
[00:15:21] Jesse Schwamb: Somebody, everybody should look them up though, because they're kind of wild looking.
[00:15:25] Jesse Schwamb: Like if you've seen it in real life, they have that hummingbird pose where the body, body is kind of laid back and the wings are going crazy. Like they literally do hover like that. Yeah. And they're, they're almost that big. The one that tried to attack you there was pretty large.
[00:15:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. They don't, um, they, they.
[00:15:41] Tony Arsenal: Move a little different than hummingbirds, which is why the first time that I saw one, I thought it was a bee. Um, because when they, when they land on a flower, they crawl inside the flower the same way that a, like a bee or a bumblebee will, um, they don't hover outside the flower like a hummingbird, but they do.
[00:15:57] Tony Arsenal: They, their body is, I mean, their body is probably an, an inch and a half long like a hummingbird. Um, and it's thick like a hummingbird. They don't look like moths at all. So I'm not sure they must be part of the Moth family, I guess. Um, I'm trying to remember. It's. They have like a specific name, I wanna say Scarab, but that's not right.
[00:16:14] Tony Arsenal: But it's something like that is the, the technical name of it. They're like a scarab moth or something like that. But
[00:16:20] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, I've just come up. It's a wild name.
[00:16:22] Tony Arsenal: This is your top 50 Entomology, uh, podcast apparently. As well as the top 50 health cath. We're gonna, we're gonna uh, com combine the two tonight, so yeah, I'm gonna check that out in the, the spring or in the fall here, Jesse.
[00:16:34] Tony Arsenal: My, my allergies always go a little bit crazy when we get to September. Yeah. With all the, like leaves falling down and crumbling up and stuff, it just gets in the air, so I'll just, I'll spray some artificial sugar. It's not artificial. I'll spray some pseudo sugar in my nose and see what happens.
[00:16:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It does have the added benefit that because it is a naturally occurring.
[00:16:53] Jesse Schwamb: Sugar, like it's a type of sugar alcohol that if it drips down the back of your throat, all you get is a little like, mm, sweet.
[00:17:03] Tony Arsenal: I wanna know who the first guy who was like, let me put some of this fake sugar in my nose and see what happens was it's,
[00:17:09] Jesse Schwamb: I'm telling you, it, it's better than any actual, like, prescribed nasal spray I've ever taken.
[00:17:15] Jesse Schwamb: You can get it like just at your g it. Yeah. Or you can get it on Amazon. I, I will, I forgot about it for a while. I, maybe I use it daily now it's become my go-to. But I mean, I don't wanna make this weird or gross, but it's the kind of thing like if you wake up in the morning and you're stuffy and you, it feels like somebody parked like a bus way up in your sinus cavity.
[00:17:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And you're like, I can't even blow my nose. There's nothing there where, where's all this stuff? There's nothing there. If you use this, when I use this within two, two, I'd say like seven minutes, I can just. Drop a huge load of mucus right outta my face and you feel like a million bucks. I don't know how to describe it.
[00:17:49] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's like better than like a sinus rinse or a netty pot. I know this sounds wild, like I'm way too excited about this stuff, but that clear spray is wild. And what I especially love is that it's all natural, that I'm not doing any harm to my nose or my face by using it. And that it, I just feel better afterwards because it's like moisturized everything.
[00:18:08] Jesse Schwamb: So, and there's, there's, the debate is I think ongoing. There's a lot apparently, because I went down the rabbit trail and looked at all these scholarly studies and peer-reviewed journal papers, all this stuff. There's a lot, I guess, uh, still somewhat in debate about like its ability to really help prevent certain things like COVID, any kind of like nasal airborne kind of like, yeah, because it helps to flush and it prevents literally bacteria from sticking, uh, inside your nasal passages.
[00:18:34] Jesse Schwamb: So that could be a benefit. I can't say anything about that. I'm not a doctor. What,
[00:18:40] Tony Arsenal: what I would love is, uh, if you are a listener who has seasonal allergies or whatever, uh, if you would join our telegram chat at t.me/reform brotherhood. Well done. We have what's normally a tastings channel, which is like people get like new foods they wanna check out, or a beer they like or whatever, and they'll, uh, they'll do a little tasting and a review.
[00:19:04] Tony Arsenal: I would love if some people would join the channel and do some, some clear, clear. We'll go clear, uh, a tasting of this nasal spray. Yeah, please don't show us. 'cause that's disgusting. Right. But, uh, let us know. Let us know what you think of it. I think that'd be great. So that's t me slash Reform Brotherhood.
[00:19:21] Jesse Schwamb: There you go. Come hang out with us. It's a lot of fun. I see we've had some people join that group this week, so I see you out there, brother Sean. Crushing it, getting in the mix. Welcome everybody. Come again. Spend a little time in there. And there's, I love that the channel for like the conversation about our episodes is.
[00:19:37] Jesse Schwamb: Hot. It's going strong. I love that. And we gave the call last week. You should listen to last week's episode when we were really speaking about, uh, God's faithfulness and a challenge of how we seek after piety, under the care and the direction, the kind direction and the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit.
[00:19:55] Jesse Schwamb: So many good things were said there. I really loved reading all those. And it probably goes without saying, but I'm gonna mention it anyway. You and I read everything that pops in there. Yeah. For the most part. I mean, sometimes I look at it and there's 150 messages, right? And um, it got wild. But I go back through and always, always read those.
[00:20:10] Jesse Schwamb: But I especially love like the conversation when we invite people to say, like, now it's, we'd love to hear from you. And so I think that's gonna be a large part of what we talk about. On this episode as well.
[00:20:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. So, Jesse, why don't you lead us in here. This was the topic you brought up. I think it's a great one.
[00:20:25] Tony Arsenal: I'd love to to dive into it here.
[00:20:27] Jesse Schwamb: I think one of the things that Christians always have to come to terms with at some point, every generation has to, but every person as well is, so where is my role as Christ child in something we might generally call like Christian activism? By which I mean like, of course, like Christians.
[00:20:44] Jesse Schwamb: Attempt to improve or influence society through time, especially in our work. And as I was thinking about this recently, I think one of the hard things we have to measure out is well. Are there different places where we would, there's certainly jobs where we say Christians shouldn't hold that position because it contravenes God's law directly.
[00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: But what about these kind of, as we've talked about before, this threefold responsibility that we have in our callings, which you can go back to our previous catalog, which is all in the reform brotherhood.com, by the way. Listen to where we talked about this idea of like the vocation that happens in our work, in our households, in our church, and is it possible that in the work sphere that there are jobs that like Christians just shouldn't hold because it takes them too far away from their responsibilities in the other two spheres, which there are equally parts of their vocation, or if we want to put like a really fine point in it, and I don't really mean to derail the conversation with this question, but this would be exemplifying kind of what we're after here, which was like, should Christians be involved and.
[00:21:47] Jesse Schwamb: In politics, are there other jobs like that where we'd say, listen, we, we tr we trust God in his sovereign superintendent will that he's always doing his good work. And you and I have talked at length about what it means to be living in the, under the normal principle of God using ordinary, normal means to do great and extraordinary things.
[00:22:06] Jesse Schwamb: So how does all of that fit with our work? Are there lines to be drawn or. Does it not really matter?
[00:22:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think for the sake of our conversation, we can just sort of take some professions off the table. Right? Of course, there are some professions of course, and calling them professions is probably even, probably even a misnomer.
[00:22:27] Tony Arsenal: But there are some ways to earn money that are just intrinsically sinful that are outside of the scope of the conversation, right? You can't, uh, there's no argument for a Christian to become like. An assassin or like a drug dealer or a prostitute, like, there's no, there's no valid argument or discussion to be had around those.
[00:22:45] Tony Arsenal: So we can just exclude those entirely. But I think for, for the sake of this conversation, we're talking about professions that do not involve, intrinsically involve sin, um, and, and may or may not have, um. Prudential reasons why they are not the best idea. Right. So I, I'm thinking like, the one that came to mind when you asked this was like, and it's funny because I, um, I mentioned the topic to my wife and, you know, she kind of joked, I was like, well, yeah, like Christians can't be.
[00:23:15] Tony Arsenal: Can't like be porn stars, like that's not something you can do as a Christian. But then, then I, she said, well, what, what other professions would it be? I said, well, like, like a professional football player, right? And like the question is like, can a Christian be a professional football player? I think instinctively, right?
[00:23:29] Tony Arsenal: We all say yes. But, but is that actually true? Right. And, and I would, I would make the argument that no, like a Christian can't be a professional football player or really, really any kind of professional sports, um, figure because it, it necessarily takes you away from the gathered fellowship of Christians on the Lord's day on far too often a basis.
[00:23:47] Tony Arsenal: Right? I don't think you can make a good prudential argument to say like, well. It's fine for a Christian to be absent from the lord's uh, Lord's Day worship in his congregation of membership, you know, 60% of the time. Like, I just don't think you can make that argument. So I think in a lot of these cases, the immediate instinctive answer is yes.
[00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: Uh. Christians can be part of any profession, and there's a certain, there's a certain way that that's true, but when we actually start to look at the way some professions actually play out, we have to analyze that a lot deeper. And this is actually not all that different than our conversation last week.
[00:24:23] Tony Arsenal: Right. Involving like a. Pop culture and like media consumption is we have to look at what is actually, what the actual cost is. Uh, opportunity cost, I guess if we want to use like economic terms, what the actual opportunity cost is here of a particular profession in respect of. Our obligations and our commitments as a Christian and our obligation to the law of God, our obligation to our Christian brothers and sisters, all of that.
[00:24:49] Tony Arsenal: So I think this is gonna be a great conversation. I'm excited to get into it. Um, but I do think it's one that we should think through a little bit more than just sort of like our gut reaction. Like we, of course, Christians can be involved in any profession.
[00:25:00] Jesse Schwamb: Let me add to that. 'cause that's perfect. That's exactly, you're not on the same page as usual.
[00:25:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's exactly where my mind was going. And what makes like this such a rich opportunity to really explore what the scripture has to say about this particular topic? I think you're right on that we need to weigh out, which we often just kind of glance over. What are the other responsibilities by taking on a particular line of work or job.
[00:25:20] Jesse Schwamb: Does that necessarily mean that we must sacrifice and preclude these other areas? We should have direct or more intimate involvement because that is also part of vocation. Part of that, like we've talked about at length before, is responsibility in the Lord's day. So we might set that up as one particular test.
[00:25:36] Jesse Schwamb: To that end, another one might be exactly what you were saying. So here's like the opposite of like the professional footballer or American football or whatever. Pick your, pick your sports. What about like high level? High responsibility, let's say leadership positions like in all kinds of areas of industry that would require the man or the woman to, let's say, like be on call continually, or maybe to sacrifice long hours at that job as part and parcel of what's required to do it effectively.
[00:26:04] Jesse Schwamb: And that might mean that necessarily like not being very connected with family or having to be away from their family a lot of the time. I think what we often come to is this idea that, wouldn't it be great if Christians were just everywhere and were infiltrating all the things all the time at all the levels.
[00:26:21] Jesse Schwamb: I think the question here that's under the surface is, is that what God assigns in a life of vocation? And maybe it's, it's of course more nuance than that and it could be for the person. Again, I wanna be clear that, like we said before, vocation is a very specific and narrow term in that we're talking about an actual calling being called out for a particular purpose.
[00:26:42] Jesse Schwamb: And if we're using that in the right way, then it's possible that with the exception of some things like the Lord's Day, the other thing I just talked about, season of life. And your particular commitments or entanglements, they might be different from person to person. Therefore, allow for a direct call that God gives to a particular purpose at a particular time.
[00:27:01] Jesse Schwamb: I think what I'm really kind of weighing out here is if we understand how the reformers viewed all of this. We have to come to this conclusion that God assigns us a life and then God calls us to that life. And that really is what vocation is all about. And notice in that there's nothing that's said about choosing a vocation or finding your true vocation or being fulfilled even in your vocation.
[00:27:24] Jesse Schwamb: We may experience a struggle with all of that, but vocation is fundamentally God's doing. So what is. God doing in our society. And as you said, are there roles that he's, in a way not calling, let's say like the, the quintessential or the normative, I don't wanna say average 'cause that implies the weird thing, but Right.
[00:27:44] Jesse Schwamb: Kind of Christian too. And I think. We've gotta, we've gotta wrestle with that because you're right. Like we too often just run to, we need Christians in all the places now let's get them everywhere. Doing all the things. Yeah. And that might be good from our perspective, because Christians should be the best workers as we said that we should.
[00:28:01] Jesse Schwamb: The most kind. There is the salt in lights everywhere. However, it takes a Christian to do all those things. And can a Christian in certain roles have great fidelity to the threefold?
[00:28:13] Jesse Schwamb: Calling and vocation of life while upholding certain jobs and responsibilities.
[00:28:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, um, I think that may be like a little bit of progam is, is warranted here too.
[00:28:26] Tony Arsenal: Like there, you know, there's the, the, the conversation at the top of like, some, some professions are just out of bounds. Yeah. Um, but there's also, you know, a pretty robust theology. And I think a lot of this is gonna center around. Uh, maybe just for simplicity's sake and for the fact that we have 30 minutes left of a conversation that probably could be multiple hours, um, there's a pretty robust apparatus in reform theology that is designed to help Christians understand whether or not, um.
[00:28:57] Tony Arsenal: A particular activity is acceptable on the Lord's day. And we've, we've had conversations in the past about like, if, if all of your theology of the Lord's Day is about what you can and can't do, then you're missing the point entirely.
[00:29:11] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.
[00:29:11] Tony Arsenal: But there is an element of what you can and can't do in terms of understanding the Lord's day.
[00:29:16] Tony Arsenal: Right. We're, we're not supposed to engage in worldly recreation or employment on the Lord's day. So we have to talk about what that means. And so I think.
[00:29:24] Tony Arsenal: I think to start with, like there's categories, like works of necessity, works of charity, um, that, or, or like works of ministry, which would, would sort of be a third category that's not necessarily, um, not necessarily enumerated in many of the sources, but it's assumed that like pastors who are working on the Lord's day are not, they're not violating the Sabbath by doing the work on the Sabbath.
[00:29:47] Tony Arsenal: Um, I think we have to have those categories. 'cause I think that helps us inform too, like. If you are the CEO of a major retailer, does that mean you have to work on Sunday, right? Well, probably it does. Like, it probably means that on a regular basis you're gonna be checking emails on your phone, you're gonna be taking phone calls.
[00:30:05] Tony Arsenal: You've got, you might have partners in markets overseas where it, it's Sunday morning for you, but it's Monday afternoon or you know, Monday morning for them or something like that. Um. I think that the industry you're in largely is going to drive whether that's an acceptable or, or an appropriate role for you.
[00:30:24] Tony Arsenal: So I could see a situation where you could make the argument that being the CEO of a of a major medical center, right. Where the work that's being done at the medical center falls easily within that sort of definition of, uh, works of necessity. A nurse who is working in the emergency room or a police officer or a firefighter or somebody who is fixing the power, like in our society, right?
[00:30:47] Tony Arsenal: Electricity is, is not an option for most people. It's not a, it's not a luxury for most people. So those, those professions. It's acceptable to work on the Lord's Day when it's a work of necessity, and so the higher level leadership positions that make those possible and constrain them also, I think. Would fall under that same work of necessity.
[00:31:06] Tony Arsenal: If the CEO of my hospital, I don't know if she's a Christian or not. I, I'm, I'm not speculating on that, but if, if the CEO of my hospital was a Christian or is a Christian and she has to take an important phone call on Sunday morning and miss the Lord's day because if she doesn't take care of that, the hospital's not gonna function correctly and people may not have emergency services.
[00:31:26] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that's a violation of the south principle. If the same scenario is happening and it's the CEO of Best Buy and they need to take a phone call, otherwise people won't be able to buy widgets on Sunday afternoon, that's a different calculation. So I think like right off the bat, we have to start having those conversations about what's the nature of the work, what's the, what's the tell loss of the work or the end aim of the work.
[00:31:46] Tony Arsenal: That's really important as well.
[00:31:48] Jesse Schwamb: So it sounds like though what we're saying, both of us in a way, is that if you run that test, so to speak, like you go through that algorithm and you come out with this idea that you know, it's, you're saying your industry is more like Best Buy and less like your local hospital, then there might be significant and maybe insurmountable roadblocks to taking that position Should be as a c.
[00:32:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I mean, that's kinda what we're saying.
[00:32:10] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, for sure. And you know, like this is a real world application I think for a lot of people. I remember when I was in college, um, I had the opportunity to take a promotion. I worked at Best Buy. I, I'm not using Best Buy as an example for any specific reason, but I worked at Best Buy.
[00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: I worked in the Geek Squad area and I had the opportunity to take a promotion. Um, and the sort of the strings that came with the promotion is that I was expected to be available to work on Sundays. I didn't have a super robust doctrine of the Lord's Day at the time. Like I wasn't super theologically versed on Sabbath theology and stuff.
[00:32:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, but it just didn't sit right with me. And so initially I didn't take the, I didn't take the, um, promotion because I didn't feel comfortable saying at the time, it was mostly about like, I'm not gonna miss the church service. I didn't feel comfortable saying I need to be available. And that might mean I Ms.
[00:32:57] Tony Arsenal: Church to, to be able to take this shift. Um, eventually the management adapted and said, well, we'll just figure out something else. We really want you to take the position, but that's the kind of question we have to ask. And then that same question, as you move up in an organization, it expands and you're more likely to need to be drawn away from Lord State worship or just general.
[00:33:19] Tony Arsenal: Obligations on the Lord's Day.
[00:33:20] Tony Arsenal: And I don't wanna make this entirely about the Lord's Day 'cause there are other obligations that Christians have and it probably will be interesting to get to those. But I think, um, the, the other thing maybe that I wanna push back on a little bit too is I. I, I've never been a CEO.
[00:33:34] Tony Arsenal: I probably never will be a CEO. You're far closer to a CEO than I ever will be. But I think a lot of times we assume those positions have no flexibility. Right. But in reality, some of those people are absolutely able to say, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take Sunday, and just not. Yes, I'm not gonna do work on Sunday.
[00:33:52] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna delegate that. You know? And then this is a whole other question. I'm gonna delegate that to someone else. Well, there's a whole different question that comes with that, but saying like, I'm just not going to do work on Sunday is actually within the options for a lot of positions. So that's the other question is when we take a position, do we have the option to set aside the Lord's Day?
[00:34:11] Tony Arsenal: Even if we might acknowledge that occasionally, that's not gonna work out. There are oftentimes in all of our lives that we're drawn away from being able to fulfill our ordinary obligation of the Lord's Day, and I don't think that that's intrinsically sinful. If on a rare occasion you're not able to attend the Lord's Day worship or something like that.
[00:34:29] Tony Arsenal: So I think those are questions we have to ask. Then what? What kind of other Christian obligations do we have? And this is hypothetical, but you're welcome to answer if you've got one in mind. Like what other kinds of Christian obligations do we have that any particular vocation or particular job might make difficult or impossible to fulfill?
[00:34:47] Tony Arsenal: I think those are questions we have to ask.
[00:34:49] Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you. And that's actually more where my mind goes because again, we've talked before and for some Christians it's easier to identify the stuff that certainly explicitly contravenes the Lord's Day. And I think it's more difficult to say like we, again, I think we talked before about that threefold responsibility and the vocation that is to like work that is like our industry, so to speak, and then to our household, then to our church.
[00:35:10] Jesse Schwamb: So the church often does. Again, in a very finely pointed way, connect very tightly with the Lord. Say what about that household stuff? Yeah. So what about these jobs that would just make you too busy? And I think like what's interesting to your point is I agree. Like I think part of this conversation is just a thoughtful assessment of what the job entails, and then even as like maybe you're taking a job or considering a job.
[00:35:33] Jesse Schwamb: Having a conversation with your potential employer about what opportunity is there for flexibility given like certain convictions that you have? All of that could fall into place neatly and I think would still be within the bounds of yes, but I think part of this is if it's truly a calling that we, we have to be praying through it and assessing whether God is calling us through that.
[00:35:50] Jesse Schwamb: Part of that is passing it through the sin of what the scriptures require in each of those threefold vocational responsibilities. So sometimes I hear there is like a pushback or counter, this argument says, but wouldn't it be better?
[00:36:01] Jesse Schwamb: Wouldn't it be fantastic if you get a Christian as an opportunity to be a CEO?
[00:36:05] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't it better for them to be a CEO and to be in that role, even if they're crazy busy, even if they're sacrificing so much for their family, for their household or for the church because they simply, they're gonna be a Christian and think of the role model and the emphasis and the impact they can have.
[00:36:19] Jesse Schwamb: And to that, I would say we gotta be really careful with that loved ones because God, I don't think God's calling us to necessarily have outside impact. What he's calling us to is, is faithfulness. Invocation, invocation pulls us back into those three responsibilities, and we know the way in which God prefers to work His jam is these ordinary means, these natural ways of in the normative work of our lives and faithfulness showing that his power is demonstrated in this weakness.
[00:36:44] Jesse Schwamb: Somehow we're back to the theology of. Glory and theology of cross. But you know, it's interesting to me that there are no calls like in the entire scriptures, of course, to withdraw into like a private ghetto or to take back the realms of cultural and political activity. And so I think we have to be really careful about even how we kind of pull that into then how.
[00:37:03] Jesse Schwamb: Our jobs that like, shouldn't it be my goal as a Christian to get as most influence as possible? And I think I wanna push back on that and say like, you know, the, the church, the Christian exists within the world as a community of word and sacrament. But it doesn't always have to seek influence in larger society.
[00:37:19] Jesse Schwamb: It can. It can. And when God provides the opportunity by way of clear calling, I think internal and external that is appropriate. However, often that calling is gonna come at a much more normative level, I think. And, and I do not believe that we are somehow compromising or sub-optimizing the work that God does in the world merely because we might have a Christian that says, I don't know if it's right for me to be in this leadership role, and therefore a unbeliever is going to vault above that person's speaker or take that role on that somehow.
[00:37:51] Jesse Schwamb: Again, God's superintendent will, or his strong arm is, is somehow pulled aback from what he wants to do that we need like more Christian plumbing in the world. I do kind of bristle that idea a little bit. Specifically because I wonder if sometimes we go outside of that calling.
[00:38:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I'm picking up what you're putting down and I think, I think there's, um, it, it does all come back to theology, the cross theology of glory.
[00:38:17] Tony Arsenal: And I'm glad that, that, that conversation happened before this. 'cause I think there's good framework there. I, I think, um, we, we as Christians can often confuse. The transformative power of the gospel with other ways of transforming culture. Yeah, that's good. Right. So, um, it is totally, um, I wanna be careful how I phrase this.
[00:38:42] Tony Arsenal: I'm not post mill, I'm probably never gonna be post mill, but I'm okay with a kind of post mill theology that says that the gospel of Jesus Christ, as people become Christians, the culture will. Change along with that. And the gospel has a transformative power in that it changes individuals and individuals make up, make up the broader society.
[00:39:05] Tony Arsenal: And so the society itself changes. Where I struggle with some flavors of postal theology, and this is where I think the theology of glory comes in, is there are some kinds of postal theology I'm thinking, I'm thinking, um, like Doug Wilson, they just, uh, opened A-C-R-A-C church in Washington, DC specifically with the goal of gaining influence with politicians.
[00:39:26] Tony Arsenal: Right. I might be misconstruing that a little bit 'cause I haven't read all of it, but that's, that's the impression that I'm getting from some of their promotional material. I, I think we can, we can look at it and say the gospel can change culture as the gospel. And so where that.
[00:39:43] Tony Arsenal: Levels of playing field is that whether you are, and this is where I think a genuine Protestant reform theology of vocation comes in, whether you're the janitor of the hospital or whether you're the CEO of the hospital, the gospel is the same and your role in proclaiming the gospel is the same.
[00:39:58] Tony Arsenal: And you might have more people's ear as the CEO than you do as the janitor. Although I would maybe question that knowing how many people janitors interact with at the hospital, um, you may have more people's ears in a higher level position, but the message that you're proclaiming, the influence that you're wielding or you're using, I don't know what you wanna say.
[00:40:18] Tony Arsenal: It's not different because it's still just the gospel.
[00:40:21] Jesse Schwamb: That's good.
[00:40:21] Tony Arsenal: Um. Where I think we can get confused is when we look at it and say, but we have these other opportunities to transfer, transform the culture by, um, for example, I, I'm the supervisor in my patient relations department. I'm making changes to the, to the policy and the way that we as a sort of service recovery resolution group, the way that we interact with patients, I'm making changes to that.
[00:40:46] Tony Arsenal: I think those changes are consistent with the law of God as revealed in the light of nature, and I'm. I'm informed of those things and my whole outlook and ethos is shaped by the scriptures, but. I don't see the transformation of the way we interact with patients as somehow propagating the gospel, right?
[00:41:05] Tony Arsenal: So we can, we can make transformation and make society better, right? If you're a politician, you can, you can legislate things that make society more outwardly in conformity with the law of God or more pleasant and more prosperous, and more flourishing, and those are all fine and well, but that's not.
[00:41:21] Tony Arsenal: Building the kingdom of God in, in a strict sense. Right? And so I think what we're getting at is our, would it be great if, if, you know, the CEO of a major Fortune 500 company could be a Christian? Yeah. That would be kind of cool. Sure of That'd be nice, of course. And yeah, they could probably do a lot of good things and they could probably shape the way that that business runs and they could probably, um, have more opportunities to share the gospel.
[00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: They could probably shape their business into a vehicle that, that moves forward. Missions, all those things are great, but. If the trade off is that that person has to sacrifice their genuine Christian convictions, right? That's not worth it. And I think we, we look at this and we might be able to identify certain.
[00:42:00] Tony Arsenal: Obvious ways that we would say, no, it's not worth it. Right? If a CEO, uh, the CEO of a major retailer has to give way to all of the, um, transgender LGBT sexual, you know, identity politics has to give way to that in order to survive as CEO, I think we would all look at that and go, yeah, it's probably a hard sacrifice, but that's a sacrifice we would expect a genuine Christian to make at that level.
[00:42:25] Tony Arsenal: Where we might not look at it is saying, well, I don't know. The Bible says that if you don't properly care for your family, then you're worse than an unbeliever. That's right. And so that CEO that is at the office for 70 hours a week and is never home, um, and their kids don't, you know, their kids don't have an opportunity to know their father or their mother because their.
[00:42:44] Tony Arsenal: Constantly jet setting around the world. I don't know that we would as readily identify that as a sacrifice. I would actually argue that, that the Bible is probably clearer about that being a problem than it is about identity politics or other sort of, of social issues that, that, uh, a business person might have to.
[00:43:04] Tony Arsenal: Hold their nose a little bit and, and, you know, sign off on a commercial or something that they don't necessarily want to, I'm not advocating that they should do that, but I think the Bible is clearer about a person who is taken away from their home more than is reasonable and more than is healthy for their family.
[00:43:20] Tony Arsenal: Or a Christian who never is able to worship on the Lord's day, um, or, or something like that. I think the Bible is clearer about that than it is on. Something like identity politics and some of the tangential ways that, that might, might cause a person to need to compromise a little bit at a high level.
[00:43:35] Tony Arsenal: So I, I think this is a, it's an interesting question that we probably don't think about it from the right angle most of the time.
[00:43:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's just too easy to consider this in light of if we can get more responsibility, that should always be a good thing. And I think that proclivity is, is fine and maybe even noble, but sometimes I think we do get it twisted where we get this sense that we are trying to make the world into something moral like the church.
[00:43:57] Jesse Schwamb: And if we could do that in our jobs and get the most influence in that greatest sphere of impact. We should always take on those additional responsibilities. And I do think we have to sit back and ask and say, is that the calling? So that we're pursuing what is our vocation, not just our potential.
[00:44:13] Jesse Schwamb: There's a lot of brilliant, God has made all kinds of brilliant people. Many of them are his children, and as a result of that, we might say like we should always again be trying to move up. And this is not to say that we shouldn't take great initiative, that we shouldn't want to try to do more and be more productive.
[00:44:27] Jesse Schwamb: You and I have always been outspoken about that kind of thing, but I think there is a real temptation. To somehow say like, what we need to do is like to infiltrate in all the places. And I think what we mean by that is that things will, like, whether we wanna admit it or not, that things here will be better.
[00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: And I, I don't know all the time that what we're saying is what you just said, which was that what we're really concerned with is that the gospel get proclaimed more forthrightly. More loudly, more specifically, more cogently in all places. But that if we just had good examples of moral behavior and good character, yes, those things are profitable in and of their own ways, but there's also a lot of common grace we see God bring about good leaders who are not a Christian at high level to do that kind of thing.
[00:45:05] Jesse Schwamb: And sometimes I do wonder, just depending on the job, quite honestly, whether it's really possible for Christian to be successful in that job.
[00:45:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:45:14] Jesse Schwamb: As like the world or the industry or the company has defined it. I'm not sure that's the case, so I don't wanna put like too high a line on this. I think we're trying to just drop a bomb in some ways and say, I'm not gonna make it overly prescriptive and say like, as a Christian, you can't be a CEO.
[00:45:29] Jesse Schwamb: Move on. That's not true at all. Of course, again, here are hopefully what we said about the particulars of that wrestling through it and again. Really sensing where there's an actual call on your life that God has given for that role in a particular time. But I do think we ought to question where there's always and everywhere appropriate for any Christian to take on, quite frankly, any job.
[00:45:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And so I'm with you. Sometimes it's super easy when I first start out in banking, when I was looking for my second banking job. I had a great interview. It was a very nice company. The bank actually doesn't exist anymore, but, uh, one of the things, one of their big, like, kind of gimmicks was they were open seven days a week.
[00:46:09] Jesse Schwamb: And so I said to them, well. I attend church on Sundays. That's my day of rest and my high conviction on that. And I said, is there any flexibility with that? And they said, Nope. You would still have to be on the schedule. And though they very graciously offered me the job, I was thankfully in a place where I, I turned that down.
[00:46:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Actually I didn't have a job at the time, but I turned it down trusting. That God would provide. And this wasn't my great act of faith on my part. It was more of just, I think what you were saying, Tony, growing in our conviction that those things really do matter. Yes. And that it's sometimes just too easy to kind of push them aside and say, I, I know it's gonna be really stressful.
[00:46:43] Jesse Schwamb: I know it might take much more of my time than I want to give. I know I might be at home a lot less. I know I might have less like attentional fortitude and space to think about my spouse or my children, but it's gonna be worth it because. I'll be able to like have this big influence. I do think sometimes madness lies that way.
[00:47:02] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Certainly a great deal of foolishness. This is just hopefully a call for all of us as God's children to, to think through that. I don't wanna discourage anybody from taking on bigger and bolder things for the kingdom of God. I think we all have to think about what it is that we're. Promulgating or proclaiming when we talk about the Kingdom of God coming and whether or not we're just trying to make the world a better place, so to speak.
[00:47:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. By bringing our like quote unquote Christian influence into a setting where really that influence is now particularly strong and what it's actually compromising is the vocation that we're meant to undertake.
[00:47:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Are you ready to, for me to drop two bombs? Just, just straight up. You got,
[00:47:41] Jesse Schwamb: you got two of them.
[00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: Let's do it. I, I've
[00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: got 13 minutes or less left on this episode. There go. So I actually got into a pretty big, uh, like a pretty big dust up with someone way back in the day when I was in the reform hub over actually this topic. And I'm surprised I didn't think of it earlier in the evening. Um, we are using like CEOs as like kind of the proxy for this, but there's all sorts of jobs where, um, your, your job may be admirable and it may be.
[00:48:06] Tony Arsenal: Right. Even something that's sort of quote unquote necessary for society. But I got into a big dust up with someone who was an overroad trucker, right? And they were constantly, um, posting in the pub at, at back in the day. They were constantly posting how discouraged they were and, and how difficult their faith was and how much of a challenge it was to just remain faithful as a Christian.
[00:48:27] Tony Arsenal: And I. Originally, I kind of naively and, and I think innocently said like, well, you know, like, have you talked to your pastor about this? And the person said like, well, I don't have a regular church because I'm always on the road. And I said like, well, there's your problem. Like there's the first step is like, figure out your local church thing.
[00:48:43] Tony Arsenal: He said, well, I can't do that. And I said like, well then maybe you need to find a different profession if you're not able to attend church on a regular basis. And I wasn't even saying like. A hundred percent. I, I wasn't even like arguing Sabbath observance. I was just saying like, if you can't be in church on Sunday on, and I wasn't even saying like a church, like, if you can't be in any church on Sunday, then you need to find something else.
[00:49:04] Tony Arsenal: And he got super, super mad. And when it, when we finally got down to like, what the issue was, he was saying like, well, I can't find another job that pays as well. Uh, I'm really sorry, but like, sometimes Christians have to sacrifice. Like sometimes you're not gonna get the best paying job because you can't, you can't.
[00:49:21] Tony Arsenal: Have every week, like we could probably get better jobs if we were available on Sundays, just in, in the world we live in. So I think that's the first thing. It's like sometimes. You're gonna have to make sacrifices and it, it feels dumb to even have to say this. Like sometimes you're gonna have to make sacrifices to be a Christian.
[00:49:39] Tony Arsenal: Like taking up your cross does not always mean you're being persecuted. Sometimes it means like you're not gonna be able to eat out as often because you don't have a job that pays as well because you're not able to work on Sunday. Right? Sometimes you have to live in a smaller house because you're doing something to make sure you've got proper budget or because you're giving more money to the church.
[00:49:55] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. Than is, is, you know. Normal for a patient, a person to do. Um, so that's the first bomb is like, sometimes you just have to suck it up and be a grownup and say like, this just isn't gonna be the right thing. And, and I might have to make a hard choice. And I think a lot of times these questions boil down to people not wanting to make the hard choice, not wanting to sacrifice their influence, their budget, their favorite, um, position, their prestige, whatever it might be.
[00:50:22] Tony Arsenal: They just don't wanna give that up. And so they don't ask the question. And, and if they do. They justify ways to. Ignore the obvious answer, and, and this is why this was so offensive to this person, is because it was absolutely obvious to me that not only, not only one was his spiritual malaise and his spiritual depression directly caused by the fact that he was, uh.
[00:50:47] Tony Arsenal: It was not in the church on the Lord's day basically, ever. But I had the gall to suggest that maybe he couldn't choose that profession because, because Christians are required to regularly participate in the Lord's Day service. So that's the first bomb. It's like if you're asking this question and you are like, oh man, I just can't, I just can't pass up this opportunity.
[00:51:08] Tony Arsenal: I know that. I know that it means I'm only gonna see my kid like one day a week. 'cause I'm gonna be in a different market for the rest of the time. That's. Like, get over yourself. Like just get over yourself. That's just not what God calls Christians to do. God does not call Christians to be absentee parents, be absentee fathers or mothers or husbands or wives.
[00:51:28] Tony Arsenal: That's just not within the scope of God's possible range for a Christian. It just isn't. And this is the second bomb, and it's related to that. There are actually a lot of quote unquote Christian vocations that do this to us. Right? One of my main criticisms. William Lane Craig, or other figures like him is, yes, William Lane.
[00:51:49] Tony Arsenal: Craig's theology is just a total train wreck, but more problematic than that. More problematic than his bad theology. And I would say probably the cause of his bad theology is that his vocation, at least for a long time, his vocation was taking him away from being in the Lord's Day service for many, many weeks outta the year.
[00:52:07] Tony Arsenal: Um, his, his activity as like a traveling debate or apologist. I, and I'm not making this statement about James White, but sometimes I look at the schedule that James White puts out for how often he is on the road in traveling, and I wonder how can you be an elder in the church and be gone from the church as often as he is now?
[00:52:24] Tony Arsenal: Again, I don't know his schedule exhaustively, I'm just using that as a kind of gut level reaction. Um, I had a conversation with someone who was talking about being like a traveling missionary, and I was like, okay, so like, yeah. What does that look like to be in the Lord's in in the Lord's day? And he's like, well, I just won't be like, my ministry is, is gonna have to be sufficient for that.
[00:52:42] Tony Arsenal: I was like, I, yeah, that's not the model of missions that the Bible presents. It doesn't present you as some lone ranger of Christians. So I think this question. Expands beyond just the influence question expands beyond just the, um, being a good parent question. It really is about like, what are your spiritual priorities?
[00:53:01] Tony Arsenal: What do you think you're accomplishing with this, and how is it that it that comports or doesn't comport with basic Christian responsibilities?
[00:53:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. And neither of us is saying that those are easy questions to ask or easy decisions to make. They all involve or could involve at times, like major life changes, right?
[00:53:20] Jesse Schwamb: I'm totally sensitive to that. I do think though, what God calls us to with these things make it all the while worth it in the end, and it is worthwhile kind of having, not just this discussion maybe with your friends, family, spouses, but just thinking through your own line of work. Where is it like when you think about.
[00:53:36] Jesse Schwamb: At least in my organization, we have this annual process of thinking through what we've done, where we want to go, really, what our development wants to look like. And I was convicted recently. What do, how does that apply? Do I ever think about that in my, not just like spiritual, but my, my vocational development as a child of God?
[00:53:52] Jesse Schwamb: What am I doing Well. What do I think I'm really falling down on? Where do I need God's help? Because I always need God's help in helping me to stay firm in that vocation that he's given me. And to reignite maybe, as it were, some of those initial fires and passions and loves that it gave me, in each of those three areas, we, I think should probably take stock of that more often.
[00:54:12] Jesse Schwamb: And yeah, I'm gonna propose, Tony, if it's okay with you, I say. In our next conversation as we move ever closer to our whole new series, we're almost there, but why don't we talk next time we get together about ways? Then if we're saying like, Hey, listen, maybe your standing out at work has less to do with how, as a Christian with how high you can climb that ladder, or how much responsibility you have, or how large your voices, or even how respected you are.
[00:54:37] Jesse Schwamb: But what if it's just about how you stand out in any kind of, in all the work that you're actually doing? How about we talk about that next time?
[00:54:43] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I think that'd be great. And maybe I'll close, um, maybe I'll close this week to wet everyone's appetite or, or I dunno. Maybe make everybody angry. I'm not sure which this will do.
[00:54:53] Tony Arsenal: You know, I, I, um, I think a helpful heuristic question for this topic would be to think about when you are considering, let's say you get a job offer in a new town. You, you've been looking for jobs, you've been looking for work, and you get an offer and it's, it's the perfect offer and you investigate it.
[00:55:12] Tony Arsenal: And, you know, let's say you're a parent and the, the town has good schools, the town has, you know, affordable housing. There's lots of opportunity. It's a thriving community. Lots of fun things to do. I know so many people that I've encountered online who. Take that job and then finding a local church as an afterthought.
[00:55:34] Jesse Schwamb: So
[00:55:34] Tony Arsenal: how many of us, and I'll put myself in this, um, category, I've never had to face this question. Um, I've always, I've always, it's just always worked out that I've never had to face this question. How many of us. Would look and see and make a decision about whether to take that job based on whether there is a good Bible believing church that I can integrate myself into in a reasonable distance.
[00:55:57] Tony Arsenal: I don't think that that is on the list of most people's questions, and I think it becomes an afterthought once they get to the region. They've moved in, they've started their new job, then they start to look for a church. I don't know anybody. I don't know anybody who asks when they're doing their job interview.
[00:56:13] Tony Arsenal: I think a lot of people ask like, well, what are the schools like around here? What's housing like? I think if you're smart, if you're, if you're thinking through it, you ask those questions during your interview, you ask people in the interview like, how's the schools? How is the housing? What's the community like?
[00:56:27] Tony Arsenal: Those are normal questions to ask. I don't think, I don't think most of us are gonna say like, can you tell me about the local churches? Can you gimme some information about what there are for local churches around here? That in my mind is like a microcosm of the question we're trying to ask here is, are we willing to put our Christian responsibility and obligations as the priority in relation to our profession and our vocation?
[00:56:56] Tony Arsenal: I, I'm not sure a lot of us have thought through this wisely, so I'm glad we're gonna keep talking about this a little bit next week. I think it's a, a good conversation for us to have and I'm super excited to get into the next, uh, series. Oh, that's gonna be good Next week. Next week will be our last grab bank episode for quite some time.
[00:57:12] Tony Arsenal: So we are gonna talk about this. Um, but if you got a topic you really, really want us to talk about. It's not unheard of for Jesse and I to scrap affirmations and denials and take a little bit of time to talk through a listener question or to do a sort of a mini episode before we get into the main episode.
[00:57:28] Tony Arsenal: So do join the telegram channel t me slash for brotherhood. There still is a topics channel. Uh, we would love for you to come, contribute your thoughts about what it is you'd like to hear us chat about. Um, and I, I'm just excited to keep going with this conversation.
[00:57:40] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. And when that whole series is done, you know, like five or six years, the one that's coming up, it'll live where all the other episodes live.
[00:57:48] Jesse Schwamb: And that is if you go to reform brotherhood.com, you can find all 400 and now 58 episodes living over there. We've referenced so many of the conversations we had already, and they're all searchable by the way, so you can go out and if you haven't heard them or you're going on a road trip, or you just like to hear more of our voices in more places, then there's a lot of great things to listen to out there.
[00:58:12] Jesse Schwamb: And my bet is once you go out there and you check out the website, which is beautiful, you see all that great content that's out there, all these hours of conversation, which we hope are edifying to you encouraging, challenging, and hopefully get you to have some of your own conversations with others.
[00:58:26] Jesse Schwamb: You're gonna be prone to think this one thing, which is how is it possible? Now all of this is just out on the interwebs for free. That is a great question and I'm glad you asked it so I didn't have to bring it up myself because that would've been way awkward. It's possible because there are brothers and sisters that after they have satisfied all of their giving responsibilities, taking care of their families, giving to their churches, both in their time and their other resources that they said, you know what?
[00:58:50] Jesse Schwamb: I'd like to give a little bit toward the Reform Brotherhood podcast. If you're feeling like you've been blessed and you wanna do that. We have so many that give a little bit, and all of that goes a long way. And so if you're interested in hearing more about that, just go to patreon.com/reformed brotherhood patreon.com, four brotherhood, and that's where you tear down the Jericho Pay walls.
[00:59:11] Jesse Schwamb: Everything that goes and is donated there goes right to the podcast to cover all of the fees to make sure that it keeps showing up free, that all of that content, which. When I think about Tony, that is so much content. I know, I know that is posted online now and just available to the world is remains free of charge without any kind of other subscription.
[00:59:31] Jesse Schwamb: So freely we have received freely we wanna give and we're so thankful. I really am, from the bottom of my hearts thankful that everybody that gets into Telegram and participates, everybody that through patreon.com, back slash form Brotherhood gives everybody that's involved makes this happen. Yeah. It's not just you and me, of course.
[00:59:48] Jesse Schwamb: It's all of us. Together. So we would love for you to join in that mission in giving, if that's something that you're able to do.
[00:59:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, thanks for bringing this topic up. I'm super stoked for next week, and until next week, honor everyone.
[01:00:03] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood
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In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dive deep into the intersection of pop culture, entertainment, and the Christian life. They explore how Christians can engage with leisure and media in a way that glorifies God, applying biblical principles like those found in 1 Corinthians 10:31 and Ecclesiastes 3. The hosts emphasize the importance of balancing Christian liberty and holiness, while also recognizing the practical role of rest and recreation in human flourishing. Through personal anecdotes and theological insights, they provide listeners with a framework for discerning entertainment choices, encouraging believers to enjoy God's good gifts without compromising their faith.
Tony and Jesse emphasize that entertainment, when properly enjoyed, is a part of God's common grace. This means that activities like watching a movie, playing a video game, or reading a novel are not inherently sinful but can serve as vehicles for rest and refreshment. Drawing from Ecclesiastes 3, they highlight that God has ordained seasons for both work and rest. True rest, they argue, is not about escaping responsibilities but about enjoying God's gifts in ways that glorify Him and restore our energy to serve others. When approached with discernment, even "secular" forms of entertainment can reflect God's creativity and goodness.
The hosts discuss how 1 Corinthians 10:31 provides a litmus test for media consumption: "Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." This principle challenges believers to ask whether their entertainment choices align with God's glory. For example, content that promotes or glamorizes sin—whether through violence, sexual immorality, or blasphemy—should give Christians pause. However, they also note that some depictions of sin in fiction can serve a redemptive purpose, such as illustrating the consequences of sin or the beauty of redemption. The key is to thoughtfully evaluate whether the media being consumed inclines the heart toward holiness or pulls it away from God.
Tony and Jesse stress the importance of Christian liberty in deciding on entertainment choices, while cautioning against legalism. They explain that Christian liberty does not mean a license to sin but rather the freedom to make God-honoring decisions in areas where Scripture does not provide explicit commands. Prudence and wisdom must guide these decisions. For instance, a particular TV show or game may be permissible for one believer but harmful for another, depending on their personal struggles or circumstances. This underscores the need for self-awareness and reliance on the Holy Spirit to discern what is spiritually beneficial.
[00:00:30] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 457 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:37] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where sound doctrine meets brotherly love. Hey brother.
[00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. So we're in a whole series of little one-off conversations, all kinds of things that just pop into our head, or we've had on a list somewhere that we thought, you know what?
[00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Someday we should talk about that. And I think we've got another great. Conversation coming up on this episode, we're gonna get into a little bit about how Christians should interact with and consume pop culture maybe, and especially things like entertainment. And I know that there are gonna be people out there thinking, wow, these guys are gonna do what reform people always do.
[00:01:15] Jesse Schwamb: They're just gonna come out into their lawn, they're gonna shake their fists angrily at the sky, they're gonna yell at the birds. It might not be that way, loved ones, but you're gonna have to wait. We're gonna talk about it. It's gonna be good. We're gonna get after it. We all do it. Everybody loves a bit of a to consume pop culture.
[00:01:31] Jesse Schwamb: Is it possible it might be somewhat of a gift that God has given us? Who knows? Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but we'll get to that. But first, let's affirm with or denying against something in the world. So what have you got for us on this episode, Tony?
[00:01:45] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna keep mine super short. It was a frustrating customer service experience, uh, that I had today.
[00:01:52] Tony Arsenal: In general, I, I have, uh, Comcast or Xfinity Internet in general. I'm actually very pleased. Their service. Um, I, I actually find them to be responsive. Um, I've managed to get a decent price. I don't have Comcast television, so that's probably part of it. Um, but I, my cable modem. Slash router, which I've had, I don't know, probably for like eight years.
[00:02:13] Tony Arsenal: Um, it finally died, so I bit the bullet and bought a brand new one. And those man, those things have gotten expensive and um, you know, it's supposed to be a super easy installation. You plug it in, you do the little thing on the app and it didn't work. So I had to connect with customer service through the app, and.
[00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: It seemed like everything was going fine. And then all of a sudden I get a link in my text message and the lady who's chatting with me on the thing says, well just, just scroll down and click on where it says accept and then hit okay. And I was like, that seems sketchy. So I read it and she was, she had sent me a link to change my internet service.
[00:02:51] Tony Arsenal: Uh, she was giving me a 90, an $80 promotional price for the first year. Uh, but then it went up to $140 after the first year. Wow. So I went back to the chat app and I said, I'm sorry, I, I must have miscommunicated something. I don't need to change my service. I just need to activate my modem. She said, oh, no, no, you're not changing your service.
[00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: And I said, no, I, I definitely am. She goes, let me explain this to you. And she went through and tried, like, she went through and she's like, your speed is this and you're paying this. And I said, and I said, with all due respect, I'm not stupid. I can see that you're trying to change my service and I'm just not interested.
[00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: And I had to fight with her for like 10 minutes before I finally said, just activate my modem, please. I'm not interested. Full stop. So I, I guess I'm just denying. I get, I get it. Like, you gotta try to upsell. I used to be in sales. I don't have any problem with you trying to upsell. I, I don't even necessarily have a problem with you trying to be clever and like, you know, intentional about how you upsell.
[00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Like there are ways that you can do that without being deceptive. This was just deceptive. So I'm not denying Comcast. I'm pleased with my service. I'm denying this particular person and this really just underhanded tactic. It was really, really upsetting. I mean,
[00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: there is nothing like good customer service, right?
[00:04:04] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, the converse of that is what a blessing it is, and it's kind of a lesson to all of us and how we treat one another. That is whether we're providing the service or we ourselves are consuming it. It is just such a blessing. It's like so easy and so light when you get somebody who really wants to help you.
[00:04:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And. You know, I would not have changed my service, but I can imagine that somebody who was looking and was interested, if she had just said straightforwardly, like your internet that you have is far slower than the modem that you're, you're installing, right? Um, we can get you a faster internet speed and give you a, a large discount for the first year.
[00:04:42] Tony Arsenal: Are you interested in that? I think a good portion of people would just say yes. Even if they didn't think it through, they would just say, oh yeah, sure. Faster speed, less money. They, they wouldn't think it through. That's not deceptive. If you present an option, honestly, to a consumer and they take it and they didn't understand the terms, that's not deception.
[00:04:58] Tony Arsenal: That's on them as the consumer for not thinking through what they're purchasing. This was just straight out, like, don't read it, just click on it, it's fine. Totally underhanded, deceptive. Um, and, and you know, I work in. Sort of a kind of customer service and I just can't imagine ever doing something that shady and calling it customer service.
[00:05:15] Tony Arsenal: I was, I was very disappointed.
[00:05:17] Jesse Schwamb: But I mean, everybody has customers, right? Yeah. Everybody has somebody they're responsible to, and everybody has people to whom they should be responsible in the kind of care. Whatever you provide to somebody, whether it's your family, it's in your church, it's in your job, so, right.
[00:05:30] Jesse Schwamb: I like that. It's a good reminder because again, there's nothing like walking away from experience and being like, wow, that was so easy, or that person was so good to help me. Yeah. Or like they really got me to the end that I was looking for and they did it and I felt better afterwards than I did before I called.
[00:05:43] Jesse Schwamb: That should be like our goal, like what does great look like in every interaction that we can have with somebody.
[00:05:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight?
[00:05:52] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going back to the app. Well, and by that was a really weird saying of just, I'm gonna affirm with another app. So I really love a good house plant, but I'm no good at the house plants.
[00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: I really like the way they look. It's a lot of pressure with house plans. Maybe people feel this way. Maybe you've not purchased a house plant or been like, I can't be that person. So here's something that I can confirm with for you. Loved one, it's a app called Plana. It's a Swedish plant care app, and it's designed to help both like novice people like me and I guess really experienced plant owners keep their house and garden plants healthy, which I know sounds super boring, but hear me out on this.
[00:06:27] Jesse Schwamb: This is what's cool about this. It offers smart, personalized care reminders for things like watering, fertilizing, misting, repotting, and it has all these things where if you, there's paid subscription for this as well, which I do not have, but I looked at all the options. There's some super cool things like you can use your phone to sense where your plan is sitting, how much light it's getting to really tell you, is this the right spot for my plant?
[00:06:49] Jesse Schwamb: Because you know, like some plants are like, we need partial sunlight and partial shade and afternoon sun and direct sun, and you need to water me, but not too much and not so often, but just the right amount. It's a lot of pressure. So it's got all these fun features in it, including like an AI doctor. So you can take a look or a picture of your plant rather, and not only will it describe what plants you have, of course, but it will help you say like, Hey, this thing is not healthy.
[00:07:08] Jesse Schwamb: Here's what you should do. So the plant app is, might be your foray into feeling more confident about having some greenery in your house.
[00:07:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, um, I could kill a plastic plant. I could kill like a fake plant, uh, without trying, uh, but I might check this out. You, you've seen my, my home. You've been here?
[00:07:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Um, my, my house is, it's a, a mobile home and so it's, it's just one long line and it's situated like almost directly east, west. So I get direct sunlight over the top of the house pretty much the entire day. And we have really beautiful, um. Violet cone plants and some other like lilies on one end of the house, um, that the previous owner planted.
[00:07:46] Tony Arsenal: They're very beautiful, but um, they just get baked in the sun and there's gotta be something that can be done to sort of help them through this. Maybe it's more water or something like that. So maybe I'll check this out and see if that can help. 'cause they're not, they're not doing great. Um, they, they didn't bloom very well this year.
[00:08:00] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. And I'm, I'm wondering if it might be, I dunno, it's been kind of dry, um, this part of the year, more than usual, so I'll check that out. That sounds like a good recommendation. There's a couple of different apps. This one sounds good.
[00:08:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's, there's certainly a lot of stuff that you can get free in it.
[00:08:14] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, they want to upsell you like you just talked about. They're, no, no, they're no Comcast, but they definitely would like you to purchase all their other features, and I bet for the right person, it's totally worth it. But I feel so much more confident now. Mainly just the watering. If you surprised how like much pressure.
[00:08:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, like aloe plants and also I'm learning the names of my plants finally, which makes me feel more connected. This, this is, listen, this is like the app to help you take dominion in your house over house plants, which sounds like the lowest form of taking dominion, but honestly still shows how complex and complicated life can be and how God has made everything in this really wonderful way.
[00:08:52] Jesse Schwamb: So I'm feeling more empowered to love my plants and to hopefully keep them growing. I was gonna say for generations, but I doubt that I'll be passing on links, plants for generations, but hopefully getting just lots more greenery into our living spaces, which is always super fun.
[00:09:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, um, I would like to have more plants, but I just, with between toddlers and dogs and my ability to kill anything green that is in my home, uh, I don't think it would be good.
[00:09:19] Tony Arsenal: That's your, your sister who is My wife does a good job with plants, but even the, yeah, she does, even, even that the plants die just because they're around me. I'm not sure what it is. I have like a, I hear it, listen, an aura of some sort that just kills plants.
[00:09:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's difficult sometimes to grow in soil, which is, I, one of the things I presume Christians often feel like when they're in the culture and when, mm-hmm.
[00:09:41] Jesse Schwamb: Do. Do you like that segue? We're so good with this. I do. And when you are consuming, let me say pop culture, or you find yourself in a place where you want entertainment and you want to rest, and I think if you're a Christian for any length of time, you start to ask yourself, okay, so what's my place in all of this?
[00:09:59] Jesse Schwamb: And what's interesting when I thought about this topic, which you graciously put forward for us, was that I think several times we've mentioned kind of cultural things often in the affirmation and denial section. Yeah. Where we've. Maybe come hard alongside something and said, this seems good. And other times we've definitely said, this seems very, very bad.
[00:10:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. But we've never really had just a pretty honest conversation about, okay, so how does the Christian discern, what is the Christian's role in making that discernment? And how can we, like our house plants grow and flourish in that kind of environment to such a degree that we are actually bearing fruit by the power of the Holy Spirit.
[00:10:36] Jesse Schwamb: And yet, of course, separate. From that culture in which we still find ourselves.
[00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think it bears saying, um, much of popular culture, media, whatever it might be, a lot of it is going to be a matter of Christian prudence and liberty. And I think it's important to say that because I think, you know, we'll talk about, we'll probably talk about like principles we use to try to determine whether we, you know, individually or, or whatever.
[00:11:04] Tony Arsenal: We're going to watch something or listen to something, but. The, the Bible doesn't say like thou shalt, and I'm gonna say this example, and it's a little bit ironic because this is actually a show that I think is pretty black and white. But it, it's not like the Bible says, thou shalt not watch Game of Thrones.
[00:11:20] Tony Arsenal: Right. Um. Right. Like thou shalt not. Listen to, I don't know who the kids are listening to. Britney Spears like tells you when The last time I listened to popular music was, is Britney Spears is the name on my mind. But like thou shalt not listen to, I dunno, Paramore, I don't know name. Name your pop culture band.
[00:11:37] Tony Arsenal: The Bible doesn't give us explicit instructions about specific bands. Movies, shows, insert, pop, you know, novels, whatever it might be. It does give us some wisdom principles. And then of course, there's God's moral law, uh, but even God's moral law does not. Necessarily apply directly to every pop culture choice we might make.
[00:12:04] Tony Arsenal: So I'm sure Jesse and I don't have identical opinions. I'm gonna guess that our thoughts are probably pretty close just because, you know, we're influenced by the same people and we, we are running in the same broader theological circles, but they're probably not identical. There are probably things that Jesse would watch that I'd go, oh, I don't know if that's such a great thing for me.
[00:12:22] Tony Arsenal: And there's probably things I would feel comfortable with that Jesse might say, eh, I'm not so sure about that. This is usually a matter of Christian liberty constrained by Christian prudence and wisdom. So before we get into any of the nitty gritty or any specific talk of anything particular, I wanna get that out there because yes, we have to be wise, we have to.
[00:12:44] Tony Arsenal: Apply God's law, but we are not able to bind other people's conscience and you are not able to bind other people's conscience based on your own particular opinion about something or your own interpretation of how the Bible is to be applied to a particular decision. Um. You know, again, you can speak into a situation.
[00:13:03] Tony Arsenal: You, especially if you have a relationship with someone, you can say, Hey, I don't think this is healthy. I don't think this is in conformity with God's law, but at the end of the day, that is between that Christian and God as to whether or not they are applying God's law appropriately and, and in to an extent, and to a great extent between them and their elders.
[00:13:21] Tony Arsenal: Right? The elders have a, a different role of authority in a, in a Christian's life than other Christians do. And
[00:13:27] Jesse Schwamb: it might be worth saying as we begin that we're kind of talking about this, I think in part because we all feel that pull to consume pop culture, and what I kind of teased at the beginning is this idea, is it possible that, I think we're really speaking about consuming that in a kind of a way of entertainment of like rest and relaxation.
[00:13:45] Jesse Schwamb: Principally there. There are other reasons I think as well, and that might be to edify, to educate, but I think principally when we feel this compulsion to say, well, I like you, just give great examples. Listen to music, watch a sporting event, watch tv, read something fiction or nonfiction. I think what we're after there is this idea that we want to rest and that understanding that entertainment is a part of the rest that God intends for us to enjoy from our labors is by itself, full stop, a legitimate thing.
[00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: So the question is. A little bit more nuanced. Where is that line? You already gave, I think a pretty good example of something that you and I would agree on would say that that's a bridge to fight across. Don't watch that thing, right? Yeah, do something else. But the question is how did we get to that place in making that judgment?
[00:14:28] Jesse Schwamb: And is there a place in there where we would say, well, the Bible is an explicit about, let's say certain medium or even like specific things within that medium that it is outspoken enough that we ought to say. No, we will not do that. So I think this is what we're after in part, is this proper use of entertainment involving, of course, analyzing worldviews, appreciating elements of beauty and creativity, acknowledging reflections of truth.
[00:14:53] Jesse Schwamb: But that also that in some way, all of this is God's gift to us. That while the Bible does not give us a great deal of explicit statements about how believers are to view entertainment, there is much we can draw out to scripture by way of good and necessary consequence to borrow language from somewhere else.
[00:15:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: And I also think too, like this is a question that often is presented as very simple and very like cut and dry, but it can be a lot more complicated than you think. And here's an example, and we don't have to get into this particular example, but let's do it. You know, I think a lot of times people, um, will take the example of blasphemy.
[00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: Right, and a show that is, or a, a video game, whatever it is, content that is intentionally blaspheming, God is something that at a bare minimum, Christians should be very wary of participating in and consuming just because it, it's something that openly dishonors God is probably not something Christians should be eager to participate in or to consume, but.
[00:15:56] Tony Arsenal: Um, there, there are instances where a, a show or a, a video game or a book contains a fictionalized blast swimming of God that actually may serve the greater purpose of glorifying God. So if you think of like, um. Think of a, a book or a a movie where there is a character who is a non-Christian, and over the course of the book, they are shown to be blaspheming God, and then they experience a conversion.
[00:16:24] Tony Arsenal: And the purpose of the, the purpose of the book is to glorify God through this conversion redemption story. That it character in that fictionalized universe is blasphemy God within that universe, right? Or within that fictionalized story. But the purpose of that blasphemy is actually to serve the greater purpose of glorifying God.
[00:16:46] Tony Arsenal: So that's not to say that automatically anything like that gets a pass, right? That can be done well, that can be done poorly. That can be done in a way that actually glorifies God. It can be done in a way that doesn't actually hit the mark. But it's not as simple as to say, this character in this show.
[00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: Engaged in blasphemy. Therefore, we should never consume that show. We have to do some actual thinking and some actual analysis of what's going on in order to. Understand whether or not it actually is violating God's law. Now there are probably some things, um, you know, like graphic sex scenes. There's really no reason, um, for Christians to feel drawn to shows that contain that.
[00:17:25] Tony Arsenal: Again, this is, this is, um, I, I, at this point in my life and I, in earlier periods in my life, I might have been more black and white on this. I am not here to tell you what you can and can't watch. That's not my role. I'm not the Holy Spirit. I'm not your pastor. I'm not any of the persons or people who have an obligation to tell you what is or isn't, right?
[00:17:46] Tony Arsenal: Like I'm not that person. But I cannot think of personally a reason why a Christian would, would need to, or should ever participate in like enjoying a show that contains graphic sex scenes. Um. The people making those have to sin in order to make those scenes right. So there are, there are things we should consider.
[00:18:12] Tony Arsenal: Are kind of always off board, right? It's always off board to do physical harm to somebody in the service of making a movie, right? So if you have a movie where people are, are actively trying to hurt each other in order to produce the film, I'm not sure that we should participate in that. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I knew that was going on in a film.
[00:18:28] Tony Arsenal: I don't, I don't, you know, again, other Christians might, and we can have a conversation about that, but we have to think about those things. Do the actors. Do the people who are creating the content, do they have to sin in order to create it? If that, if the answer is yes, we as Christians, I think should be extremely, extremely wary of, of even watching or consuming those things.
[00:18:49] Tony Arsenal: So those are the kinds of questions and situations that I think need to be list like thought about as we approach pop culture. But I also think, Jesse, you know, you made the point to that. Popular culture, entertainment broadly is a gift from God for us to enjoy. Right? And it's okay to enjoy it. It's okay for us to participate in that.
[00:19:09] Tony Arsenal: You know, we're not, we're not the people who are gonna say to you like, well, you know, every minute you spend, uh, reading, I don't know, uh, reading will of the many, every minute you spend reading Will of the many you could spend witnessing to people, right? So therefore, you should never read Will of the many or The Hobbit or whatever it might be.
[00:19:27] Tony Arsenal: Um, but we should think carefully about what we consume, how much of it we consume, when we consume it, all those are questions that the Christian needs to ask themselves.
[00:19:35] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. I think the broad test here is actually not that difficult to comprehend. It's probably more that we sometimes hesitate to apply it because we're afraid of what it might mean for the stuff that we're consuming.
[00:19:46] Jesse Schwamb: So again, like ceasing from our work in order to rest holds us together like that, that is something that God gives us as a pattern relaxation that we should take joy in. It must be the right amounts of lawful entertainment or consumption of all of this stuff in pop culture, but it is there. I think like even God gives it our own cultures as a means for us to find that kind of rest and to find some comradery and solidarity even with those in whom we interact and live with.
[00:20:13] Jesse Schwamb: I think all of that's fine. Like you've said, it gets a little tricky when we start thinking about, well, where is that appropriate line? What is our conviction? But I think part of the problem with that is that we might not be seeking out conviction for ourselves. We not be asking because we hate to find that there is conviction in things that we're watching because there's gonna be a lot of things'.
[00:20:31] Jesse Schwamb: That society's gonna be preoccupied with for entertainment for its own sake. And again, it's an indicator that everybody, men and women, even children, are seeking rest from the burden of their work and that rest is okay. Even that itself, like you're saying, Tony, it's interesting. I think so much we're gonna come back to is this idea of it.
[00:20:47] Jesse Schwamb: Is, are we redeeming what we're doing in this process? Are we being not just thoughtful about discerning, adjudicating, or interrogating what we're watching and listening and reading, but as we do it, are we thoughtful people? Are we seeing the themes even in those joyous things that we find as entertainment that draw us back to the goodness of God that explains something about the world he's created or his own character finding?
[00:21:10] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, that in every story is just a reflection of the greatest story ever told. Like, yeah, all of those themes, all the things we are drawn to that we gravitate towards. That move us. All of those things still come from God. And so therefore, even our entertainment can serve this purpose of not just alleviating our minds and bodies from the burden of ongoing labor in a fallen world, but can also draw, draw us back to God's common grace and his particular grace for his people who are always sinners.
[00:21:34] Jesse Schwamb: So here's the the first test. I think it's the most simple one. And everybody's gonna throw their listening devices at the wall because it's the one that's the most straightforward. It's the one you might've been thinking you're gonna get to eventually, and let's just get it out of the way. I don't say that because it's not worthwhile.
[00:21:49] Jesse Schwamb: I say it because it's exactly the kind of worthwhile test that we should apply, and it applies perfectly in every situation. And that's the Apostle Paul setting out in one Corinthians 10 31. Here it is. This is like. You know, top 20 reform verses whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
[00:22:07] Jesse Schwamb: So the beauty of this is I think just first pass, first blush, top of the house. If we cannot engage in an entertaining activity in such a way as to glorify God, then it's just unlawful. And by way of contrast, if you can, then we're justified in viewing it as a gift of God's common grace. I, I just throw it out there to start with.
[00:22:26] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think that it's not that we found that this particular test has been tried and left wanting, but rather we haven't tried it very well. Oftentimes. Yeah. At least for my own sake. And instead we say, well, the Bible just isn't clear. But if you're, watch your point, Tony. If you're watching something that is gratuitous in any way, and you stop and say.
[00:22:44] Jesse Schwamb: Am I glorifying God in the consumption of this? I think it's really difficult to make a strong argument that in some way you are actively, not just passively and saying like, well, it's okay and there's gonna be a redeeming story plot in here somewhere, I hope. But are we actively, whenever, whenever we're doing or we're consuming these things, are we actually glorifying God?
[00:23:02] Jesse Schwamb: Is God glorified in. What's happening with my mind, my thoughts, my body, my eyes, my conversations, how this shapes me, how this changes my worldview. If we have to answer that God is not glorified there, then to my view, it's unlawful. And I think also in the eyes of the Apostle Paul.
[00:23:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:23:20] Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think something that is important to, um.
[00:23:24] Tony Arsenal: Comment on and think about when we sort of apply that test, that test really has more to do with what's going on in our heart. Yes. When we are consuming any particular part, you know, any particular media than it necessarily has to do with the media itself. I think there are some things, um, that. Just cannot be consumed to the glory of God.
[00:23:46] Tony Arsenal: Right? You can't watch pornography to the glory of God, like you just can't do it. Um, you can't, you can't watch people murder each other for, you know, to the glory of God. But the vast majority of things that are out there, um, the, the, the question you're asking is not primarily grounded in the content itself.
[00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's grounded in. What the content does to us and in us and how we process it. And I think that's why I, you know, I always wanna say for most things, this goes back to Christian Liberty and. Christian Liberty is not a license to sin. It's, it's a freedom to, um, to obey, right? It's a freedom and it's a range of possibilities to obey God in different ways, in different situations, rather than some tightly constrained, tightly restricted behavioral code, right?
[00:24:39] Tony Arsenal: There is a law. God gives us a law. We talked about this at length when we did the 10 commandment series. He gives us a law, but this law is a set of 10 principles for godly living. Not a, an exhaustive list of do this, don't do that. Right? So the seventh commandment, you know, for media. Is this inclining my mind towards chastity and purity of thought, right?
[00:25:02] Tony Arsenal: For those of us who are married, is this likely to, um, create a barrier in my relationship with my wife, or is this likely to enhance the relationship I have with my wife? Is this. Particular thing I'm doing, this video game that I play, is this likely to draw my attention away from my children when they need me?
[00:25:19] Tony Arsenal: Or is it something that I have that is likely to increase my ability to pay attention to my children? Or am I able to properly balance the demands that my children have and the needs my children have while I still play this video game, just as an example. So we can still use those 10 principles to help guide us, but the way that those.
[00:25:38] Tony Arsenal: The way that the law is applied to these questions and how it is, is gonna be unique, I think almost, almost across the board for things. It's gonna be unique to each individual, right? One person may be able to, yeah, like my big thing and I like, okay, I'm just gonna put this out there. I'm just gonna lay myself bare here.
[00:25:55] Tony Arsenal: If I could say that I have one actual real addiction in life, it's probably World of Warcraft, and I know that sounds probably really silly, but even me saying and saying the phrase World of Warcraft, in my mind I'm like, could I figure out a way that I could go back in and play that game? Like they call it World of Warcraft for a reason.
[00:26:14] Tony Arsenal: It is super addictive and it's very easy to fall back into it. I'm sure there are people out there who can perfectly just fine, could manage their life of having children and a wife and a job and, you know, service to the church and still play World of Warcraft for a couple hours a week or, or an hour every night and still be just fine.
[00:26:33] Tony Arsenal: I cannot do that. If I subscribe to World of Warcraft, it will imbalance my life such that something that God is calling me to, that I know God is calling me to, is going to be pushed out of the way for that. So for me. I cannot fulfill my obligations and participate in that particular element of pop culture.
[00:26:52] Tony Arsenal: And I think there's probably something like that for most of us. Again, someone else may be able to do that just fine. There are probably many people who can do that just fine. That's a problem in my own heart. And the way I address that is by saying, this is just not healthy for me, so I'm not gonna do it.
[00:27:05] Tony Arsenal: And whether that's a TV show or a a book series. I know people who won't read certain books because they get so immersed in it and it sort of like shapes their worldview in really unhealthy ways. They just won't pick up a particular set of novels or a particular book series. Um, you know, I've told this story that I, I don't remember where I was flying.
[00:27:24] Tony Arsenal: Um, it wasn't. I must have been flying to Minnesota. That's the only place I've traveled by air for quite a long time. Um, I stopped in the, the bookstore, the, you know, the, the souvenir store, whatever. And I forgot a, I forgot a book at home of all the people to forget a book. And I was like, you know, there's this big hub lu about Game of Thrones and you know, maybe the book is better than the show.
[00:27:43] Tony Arsenal: And like, you know, I can control what I'm imagining and it's easier for me to skip over parts and nobody is having to make graphic sex scenes. Even if they're sort of portrayed in the book. I can maybe do this. I got like. A chapter and a half into the book and was like, I can't, this is not healthy for me.
[00:27:57] Tony Arsenal: It's not helpful. It doesn't glorify God. It's not true. It's not noble, it's not honorable, it's not worthy of praise. Right. I'm just gonna, and I just threw the book away. I spent like $15 on a book and then I just threw it in the garbage. Um, and I don't say that to like prop myself up as some bastion of self control.
[00:28:10] Tony Arsenal: That's just in that moment I made the right decision. But there are things like that, that you are gonna have to look at your own self to say, I cannot participate in this, even if someone else might be able to. I personally cannot. And I think that's really the more the question we need to ask then. Are there universal principles that say, I can't do A, B, or C?
[00:28:30] Tony Arsenal: It's really about my heart in the moment and how my heart is affected by a given thing.
[00:28:36] Jesse Schwamb: Much like the 10 Commandments. This whole conversation in the scriptural, I think admonishment here is very much about freeing us up to enjoy freedom, to have joy in these things. It's not about just saying, well, here's a list of things that you can't do.
[00:28:51] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't that unfortunate? Everybody else can do them, but you can't enjoy them. Instead, Scott saying like you're talking about Tony, no put to death all these evil, selfish things that are in your life that actually destruct. And instead, enjoy entertainment and pop culture in such a way that not only glorifies him, but does truly refresh you so that you're not drawn back into patterns of selfish behavior or sinful thinking, or all kinds of, you know, sexual frivolity that's going to lead your mind and your body and your heart astray or into places that you'll end up getting hurt.
[00:29:25] Jesse Schwamb: I think. The beauty of this is it just provides us with a way to think and discern about the stuff that we're consuming so that we're ensured. Then it's fulfilling the right purpose that God has for in our lives, and that's freeing. When you get to a place where the scripture says like, here's the way walking it, then you know that you can walk confidently and you can enjoy that very thing.
[00:29:46] Jesse Schwamb: One great example, I think that sit on both sides, we can talk about in some ways how there's like a, a lack of, or like kinda a, a moral perspective with certain types of medium of expression. One of those I think famously is, is music. Luther famously said, musical performance is principle among the entertainment that God has graciously given us to enjoy in life.
[00:30:06] Jesse Schwamb: And yet who hasn't been part of either music that has been absolutely refreshing, absolutely life-giving, absolutely calming and beautiful in the same way that like David played before King Saul when he was distressed. And maybe you've had this experience where there's some kind of soothing melody that was just a bomb to your soul and your condition in that state.
[00:30:25] Jesse Schwamb: And then also. On the other side, who hasn't listened even to some really catchy music that's been filled with like sexual perversion, misogyny, violence themes that at the end of it, you may have enjoyed the beat, but it's, it's just left you kind of feeling gross. And disgusted. Yeah. Even with yourself for enjoying it.
[00:30:45] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think that's what we're after here is like to be freed up to enjoy this kind of entertainment in a way that it is truly the gift that God has given rather than something that enslaves us. And I'm gonna argue that it often does. Not because it's just addictive, though.
[00:30:59] Jesse Schwamb: It can be, but because it does actually influence us deeply and, and I think one thing is clear is that all the things we're talking about here that's present in entertainment, and I'm talking all the way back to things like athletic performance, all of this beauty and creativity, art expressed both in film literature and in music, that all of those things God has given us for our good and for his glory.
[00:31:22] Jesse Schwamb: So he wants us to enjoy them. But sin is of course gonna take all those things and pervert them and twist them in such a way that they no longer become life-giving or become life taking. The problem is they take life incrementally and on the margin. Yeah. And so that you rarely feel that that's going on.
[00:31:37] Jesse Schwamb: You rarely sense the divide of the chasm that's creating in your thought patterns, in the way that you interact with people, even the way that you interact with God until, not that it's too late, but that's, you wake up and you think, my goodness, how far have I gone from what I think this is really intended to be in my life?
[00:31:52] Jesse Schwamb: Then maybe addiction does crop up in such a place that you're like this. This has gone too far. But I think, again, like many things in life, when God says no, what he's saying is, do not hurt yourself. I know better. I want you to enjoy these things. So I see this as like our opportunity to like empower to come with the scriptures, bearing full weights on what we consume, not because we need more laundry lists of things to avoid, but because we need direction on what is best to sink our entertainment time and resources into.
[00:32:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I, I think that's a good, um, that's a good, maybe a next test right?
[00:32:25] Tony Arsenal: Is we only have a finite amount of time. We, we, and, and I'm not even just talking about like in general, we have a, I'm, I'm talking about like we have a finite amount of discretionary time. We all have commitments, we have jobs, we have families, we have church commitments, we have friends that we wanna maintain relationships with.
[00:32:43] Tony Arsenal: The amount of time we have to just like sit down and consume pop culture is limited no matter, no matter who you are. Some people have more, some people have less. Um, we can consume. Ev, every time we say yes to one thing, we're saying no to another thing, right? There is, um, there is popular culture or content out there that absolutely is encouraging, right?
[00:33:05] Tony Arsenal: And absolutely is going to enhance your life, and it's going to enhance your piety and your devotion to God, right? And I'm not just talking about like Christian content. There's decent Christian content out there. There's decent Christian films, there's decent Christian music, there's decent Christian fiction writing.
[00:33:22] Tony Arsenal: Um, there's probably even decent Christian video games, although I haven't run into them, I'm sure they're out there. Um. But that's not even what I'm talking about.
[00:33:30] Tony Arsenal: There there are, there are non quote, non-Christian, um, right there. There's General grace. Common grace works out there that will, they'll, they'll make you smarter.
[00:33:41] Tony Arsenal: It will make you healthier. It'll help you enhance your life. It'll help you enjoy your world more. It'll help you enjoy and see the beauty in God's creation. More I've, I've commented, um. At length, and this isn't necessarily pop culture, although it kind of bridges the gap a little bit. I've commented at length on how beneficial in my life, Ryan holiday's, writings have been.
[00:33:58] Tony Arsenal: Right? Right. That's what he doesn't get everything right. There are some things he gets very wrong, um, but. I, I read, um, Ryan Holiday's, stoic. Stoic Works, and I wouldn't say he's a scholar of stoicism. He's more like a modern day stoic philosopher. I read his works and I benefit from him. It makes my life better.
[00:34:17] Tony Arsenal: It makes my devotion to God better. It makes my piety better. It makes me a better husband and a better father, and a better employee just in general. It makes me a better person. Not because Ryan Holiday is some special thing, but because he seems to have tapped into common grace principles that other writers haven't, I have a choice.
[00:34:33] Tony Arsenal: You know? Do I wanna read that or do I wanna read some? Um, and don't get me wrong, I enjoy manga, but like, do I wanna read some. Meaningless, pointless manga that is just the same story over and over again with different animation. You know, some people might find that the reading the manga is the right thing for them and that enhances their life.
[00:34:51] Tony Arsenal: Right? But for me, I've had to make that calculation. I only have so much time. I only have so much time to read. Um, and, and this is might be a shock to people. There are times where I'll have the decision between reading a theology book and. Being caught up on my reading in Daily Stoic, I most often will take time to read the Daily Stoic instead of reading something.
[00:35:10] Tony Arsenal: For example, I'm way behind on Daily Devotion or Daily Doctrine by Kevin De Young Way Behind, but I'm not behind on, on Daily Dad or daily Stoic from Ryan Holiday. That's not because one, one thing is better than the other necessarily, but what I need in my life and what God is calling me to. The writings by di by Ryan Holiday right now are more effective in a, in accomplishing those tasks and into shaping me into who I believe God wants me to be.
[00:35:37] Tony Arsenal: So that's the other question we have to ask is what?
[00:35:40] Tony Arsenal: What is the most beneficial thing for us at the moment? It could be some sort of mindless cotton, candy entertainment. There's nothing wrong with that. This isn't, this isn't me saying like find, this isn't like hustle culture for pop culture. Like sometimes you just need to veg out and do something that doesn't require any brain power, and that's what God is, is giving you as a gift for your rest and your re recuperation.
[00:36:04] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes it's a hard hitting. Heavy theology. Sometimes you need to sit down and read some Bob Ink again, not that that's pop culture, but I think the broader principle applies. Maybe you need to sit down and read some Turin, or maybe you need to like scroll Instagram for a little while and watch funny cat videos, right?
[00:36:19] Tony Arsenal: All of those things are good things. They're all gifts from God in the proper proportions and at the proper time, and that's why this can be such a complicated question is because we have to have a good, robust. Honest reflection of who we are and what we need in order to make these, these decisions. Um, and it really is about what do we need in the moment?
[00:36:37] Tony Arsenal: What is God calling us to? What is the wise thing to do right now, the wise thing to consume right now? Um, and, and I think that's a good test. Is this the most effective thing and accomplishing in my life what needs to be accomplished, right? That could be all sorts of goals, but is this the most effective thing to accomplish that at my life right now?
[00:36:57] Tony Arsenal: If so, and it's not sinful, and then have at it enjoy. You know, I think those are the kinds of questions we need to ask, and I don't think we often ask that. I think we are often passive. And neutral in decisions about what we're gonna watch for pop culture. We're driven by what is the most popular thing on Netflix?
[00:37:15] Tony Arsenal: What does the algorithm recommend for us? Or what is being talked about at work? Or what do I have on hand? What do I have easy access to? Um, I think we need to be more active and intentional in our decisions on this towards those ends.
[00:37:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. And there's no accounting for taste, right? I mean, part, part of time we get caught up in that, so we'll just say, well, maybe what I'm experiencing, because I'm a Christian, I'm trying to process this, has to do more about like particular medium or the taste or the type of genre or something.
[00:37:44] Jesse Schwamb: I'd encourage us to not get too caught up in that. I think what you're saying is really, really helpful. The idea here I think is more about embracing the fact that we don't have to be productive all the time. And that we don't have to be, and I use this with great love like puritanical in the sense that, you know, well, if Jonathan Edwards didn't laugh and the Lord sakes that was inappropriate, then I shouldn't either.
[00:38:05] Jesse Schwamb: And by virtue of that fact, then I should really have this incredible puritanical work ethic where even when I'm at home or every second that I have, I should be reading something. And if I'm gonna read something, it should be productive. Or if I'm watch tv, it should be something kinda documentary. I need to learn and fill my mind and make use and redeem every second of that time.
[00:38:18] Jesse Schwamb: What if part of that redemption. Is enjoying entertainment for the way that God intended it to be, and that when he makes beauty and creativity and artistic expression, and again, we're presuming that this is the right amount of a lawful entertainment, that all of those things are for their own enjoyment because they point back to the creator.
[00:38:40] Jesse Schwamb: Just by themselves. Like there doesn't have to be an ulterior motive. You don't have to justify it. You don't even have to feel guilty about it. That in fact, because we're contingent beings and therefore we have limited energy supply and unlimited amount of time and space, that all those things com continue to propel us towards some kind of desire for a lawful entertainment that leads us into rest.
[00:39:02] Jesse Schwamb: Even as you're saying Tony, if that's rest for 10 or 15 minutes before, it's the next thing to feel this compulsion instead. To have to again quote unquote redeem. That time by being super productive is I think a fool's errand because we are as much made to work as we are made to rest. And in that rest, I think sometimes we actually find for some of us an easier time identifying and worshiping God in that risk.
[00:39:26] Jesse Schwamb: Because in our work, we are busy in our work and we often get caught up in our work thinking all of our work is all of us. And so we rest and we find enjoyment in something. We take a walk, we listen to a beautiful piece of music. We spend some times just conversing about nothing with friends. We sit outside and enjoy beverages together that something happens sometimes in that space.
[00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: We're in the pause of that in the fact that there is beauty that seemingly is without productive purpose, even though I'd argue there is one. It's just hidden behind it and we fail to see it. We are drawn to the fact drawn to say, God, are you not good? For all of your gifts. And of course he's good in our gifts of work.
[00:40:02] Jesse Schwamb: He's also good in our, our gifts of rest. But he's given us this gift as a form of entertainment in our own pop culture for us really to enjoy. But you're right, if we get it twisted such that we consume too much of it, or if we misapply that, I think we're just gonna live a less abundant life. So again, like the task here is not, don't do any entertainment.
[00:40:23] Jesse Schwamb: Get all, get away from all the entertainments. Like what? Like your point, Tony, I, and I've heard Christian say this, I think there can be a brow beating here where it's like, well, couldn't you have used that time more productive? Like they had a couple more minutes, like maybe you really should have prayed harder or.
[00:40:38] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe you should have read that other chapter in the Bible. Maybe you should gone back through your genealogies again and read those because you know that you don't read those particularly well. Or maybe you should have studied this thing or that thing. And instead is there a kind of worship that truly gives itself over to resting in God in the form of appreciating entertainment as he's created it for us to give us that kind of rest?
[00:40:59] Jesse Schwamb: I would say yes. It's just that we often don't talk about it and sometimes we do talk about it. It's hard to bring it up 'cause you're gonna. You're gonna feel guilty. Like, can you imagine somebody saying to you, you know what? I'm just finding so much rest these days in this, uh, little game on my phone that I get to play.
[00:41:15] Jesse Schwamb: You would be like, you, you might, if you're, if you're like, you know that person, well, you might be like, that's weird. I guarantee though, if that happened to me, I'd walk away and then when I was with my wife later, I'd be like, let me tell you what this weird thing this person said. You know what I mean?
[00:41:27] Jesse Schwamb: But what, what, yeah. We need to think more like that. Not as a liberty to forsake or abdicate responsibility, but instead to actually be well rested for the responsibility in the task, the good works that God has created for us.
[00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: And maybe here's like a concrete example is, um. You know, I, um, I work at a local hospital and my job is relatively intense.
[00:41:53] Tony Arsenal: Um, in terms of emotional investment, I'm a patient relations supervisor, so I, I'm in charge of the department that hears all of the complaints from patients, which means we often hear some really frustrating stories about people's healthcare, and it can be very emotionally draining. And so I also, um, I also ride the bus home now.
[00:42:15] Tony Arsenal: My, my vehicle is broken right now. Hopefully we're gonna get fixed soon, but I ride the bus home and for the first couple, I don't know, for the first week that I was riding the bus, I was like, I gotta use this time. I gotta read something. I gotta make sure I'm doing that right. And what I've learned actually is if I just take the 45 minutes that I'm on the bus and waiting for the bus and I just sort of zone out and play Pokemon Go.
[00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: By the time I get home, I'm ready to engage with my kids better. I'm ready to engage with my wife better. I'm less likely to feel, uh, just drained and tired because I'm actually letting my brain sort of reset and I'm building that buffer. So something as simple as like. Playing a relatively mindless game on my phone for a half hour, 45 minutes while I ride the bus and wait for the bus, um, helps me to fulfill my obligations as a father and a husband in a more present way.
[00:43:09] Tony Arsenal: Again, like if you wanna ride the bus and you wanna read a fiction, or you wanna do theology, like that's on you, that's your decision to make. But. I know people who would say to me, um, you really should be using that time for something more productive than playing Pokemon Go. And, and yeah, maybe like, maybe there are times that I should be more productive and maybe there are times that other people should be less productive.
[00:43:32] Tony Arsenal: Like I think that's kind of what we're getting at here is. Productivity or spiritual growth or pi, like those categories are, each of those are good categories. Like productivity is not a bad thing. Um, personal devotion is certainly not a bad thing.
[00:43:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:43:47] Tony Arsenal: But it's not the only thing. And we also, I think we act as though our lives can be this sort of like perfect integrated balance when really like we have to be able to sort of recognize that.
[00:44:02] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes doing nothing has its own utility. Like that feels like a weird thing to say, but I I, I'm with you here and, and maybe this is kind of how we bring the episode down to an end is I do think. There is this, obviously the Sabbath principle, the rest principle. Um, but God also gives us rest in these other small ways.
[00:44:25] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes not so small, but small ways in the rest of our life. And I don't think that we should bear any shame or guilt or feel like we're less Christian because we take advantage of or make use of those. Those sort of like smaller opportunities to rest and you know, recreation is recreation. Like that's, that's that etymology is not a false etymology.
[00:44:49] Tony Arsenal: That's where the word comes from. And it's because we often need to do these sort of leisurely things in order to be able to then go back and put forward the effort that we need. And the other thing just, I feel like we're tying. Leisure to the ability to produce in a way that may actually also be unhealthy.
[00:45:09] Tony Arsenal: Leisure is not necessarily the ends, the means to being able to be productive. Right? Leisure serves its own purpose. It has its own use, its own way to glorify God. Yes, it does enable us often to be able to come back and put our nose to the grindstone, but we shouldn't just think about it as like, well, this is just, this is just my recharge period.
[00:45:30] Tony Arsenal: We don't think about sleep that way. I don't think we think about sleep in, in a fashion of saying like, well, I've gotta sleep so that I can just get up and go to work the next day. And productive. I think we recognize that our bodies need to rest and there's a blessing and a joy in being able to close our eyes and sort of drift off and have dreams and rest, and that our body recuperates itself, I think we should think of leisure in a similar sense, and recreation and pop culture all kind of play into that.
[00:45:53] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's right on. I mean, it's one of those things where we're certainly not saying that there isn't rest in prayer and in daily worship and consuming and studying the scriptures, there's certainly a rest in all those activities too. In some ways, I think we're presuming that we are trying to incorporate a balance into our lives, and that part of that balance is just rest for its own sake.
[00:46:12] Jesse Schwamb: The enjoyment of that and when you're truly, I think, enjoying that rest, whatever it is, one we do not long feel guilty because we have processed. And pass everything to the sve of the scriptures and say, this is glorifying to God is for my goodness, for his glory. So therefore there's no, as it were like condemnation for me in this because I have a clear conscience about it.
[00:46:31] Jesse Schwamb: And then in addition to that, it does provide us with perhaps, again, that lovely contrast between working hard and then having. Some period of which we are abstaining from that work and from that labor. And in so doing we find different ways to please and to worship God. We find that we see his character reflected in different ways.
[00:46:49] Jesse Schwamb: And so in that way too, it reminds us that we are, like I said before, like completely contingent, we get tired, we get exhausted. Like there's only so much the mind can do and so much it can handle. And so by. Willingly accepting and leaning into that, not again, in a way that takes us away. We use as liberty to say, well, I, you know, I really should spend some time before the Lord in prayer.
[00:47:10] Jesse Schwamb: I really should spend some time in, in daily particular worship, but you know what? I really need to rest instead. Like of, of course, that itself, we should be convicted about, uh, because then we're using entertainment such a way to distract us. Suppose this. Way from God rather than toward him. But the Bible is so clear, like you're saying, Tony, that there's all these seasons in life and the more I think about those seasons, the more I wonder if we tend to treat them too discreetly.
[00:47:34] Jesse Schwamb: And in these two, like, kind of like prolonged periods, what if a season is for an hour? What if a season is for a day? What if a season is for five minutes? So famously, of course, when we have the teacher writing. Ecclesiastes chapter three, some of these famous words, I think we just fail to take them to heart.
[00:47:51] Jesse Schwamb: Listen to this beautiful contrast, and I think it really fits in with what we're saying here about the, the ability to rightly consume entertainment and pop culture in such a way that it is glorifying to God and our understanding of it in our application of how it gives us true rest. So it writes things like this.
[00:48:09] Jesse Schwamb: There's a time to kill and the time to heal. A time to break down, a time to build up, a time to weep, and a time to laugh, A time to mourn and a time to dance. A time to cast away stones and a time to gather stones together. A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing a time to seek and a time to lose.
[00:48:26] Jesse Schwamb: A time to keep, and a time to cast away. A time to tear. A time to sow, a time to keep silence and a time to speak, a time to love, and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. So it's very clear that God has given us, I think all of these wonderful things to enjoy as part of his character, as demonstrations of the fact that he is a God who is loving and love always leads to giving.
[00:48:51] Jesse Schwamb: And so he gives us beauty in arts. In music, in literature, in screen, and of course then we should recognize because those are things from God and we ought to that. Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Heavenly Father who is above that. It is the prerogative of the devil to twist and bend those things in such a way that we feel to see them as God's gifts and said, see them as our rightful consumption.
[00:49:12] Jesse Schwamb: Such a way that enslaves. Changes our mindset, pulls us farther away from God. So I think part of it's just going into everything with the pun intended, with eyes wide open. So hopefully some of these tests have been helpful. I think people probably have, because like you said, Tony, there's a lot of Christian liberty here and maybe some point.
[00:49:29] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I was gonna ask you like what's I, I'm not gonna ask you this because I know you're gonna ask it back to me, but like what would be maybe something you consume that others might be able. Ooh. Um, but I don't want you to ask that back to me. We could do that. We could do that if you want to.
[00:49:42] Tony Arsenal: Um, yeah, let's, let's do that in a future episode.
[00:49:43] Tony Arsenal: I think that'd be fun. Well, we'll
[00:49:44] Jesse Schwamb: save that for another time. So everybody keeps listening.
[00:49:46] Jesse Schwamb: But I think one of the things that we should be encouraging our listeners to do, the people who are part of the reform brotherhoodhood, is come hang out online. In this place called Telegram, which is just a chat messaging app and we have a little corner, a protected corner of the world.
[00:50:00] Jesse Schwamb: There is a group of people who are like-minded listening to our conversations and participating in their own. And the way they participate with us is you can message in the app, they've got a bunch of channels of different topics, so you can get there by going to t.me/reform brotherhood. I bring this up now, not just to advertise as usual.
[00:50:17] Jesse Schwamb: Because we want you to come be a part of this, but I would love to hear from others because we have a channel in there that's just about the conversations we're having on the podcast. Come share some of the practical things that you use, the tests that you have, the conversations that you bring forward to help you discern what kind of pop culture you're consuming.
[00:50:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Don't just take our word for it. Let's hear what the Holy Spirit. How he is leading you in this process that every Christian really must engage in. So coming out, that's t me Reformed Brotherhood.
[00:50:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and I'll, I'll throw my 2 cents on there too. Is this, this really is the most friendly corner of the Christian internet.
[00:50:58] Tony Arsenal: Um. That's not to cascade on other, other venues and other things, but my experience with this group of people is that it's the most low key, chill and genuine group of Christians online that I've ever encountered. And so I, I think like in some places you couldn't have that conversation honestly, because the second you say, I watched this show, or I've read this book and I enjoy it, somebody is jumping down your throat to tell you that you're terrible and awful and, and.
[00:51:25] Tony Arsenal: I've been that person. Like, don't, don't get me wrong, like I've been that guy online. Who tells you that you're the worst person in the world because you, I don't know. Because you watch the office. I wouldn't say the office 'cause I love the office, but like, I've been that guy, that guy doesn't exist in our, our telegram chat.
[00:51:41] Tony Arsenal: Right? Like you, you are not gonna have people who are gonna be jumping on your throat, but also. People there are, are honest and they're straightforward and they're gonna back up what they say with biblical reasoning. If they think that the thing you're watching is not a healthy thing, then they're gonna tell you and they're gonna share with you why they think it is.
[00:51:55] Tony Arsenal: But they're gonna do it in a way that is charitable and honest and respectful. And at the end of the day, a lot of times there's disagreements and we just say, you know what? It's not worth it to have. Strife among the brethren here. So we're just gonna let this conversation fade away until another day, right?
[00:52:10] Tony Arsenal: So do check it out. T me slash Reform Brotherhood. Um, I really think it's great. It's encouraging the, I, I, I say it every single time we bring this up. There is an active prayer channel where you can share your prayer requests, and not only will people pray for you, but it is not uncommon for people to type out the prayer that they're praying for you in that chat, so you know what they're praying, which is something I've never experienced online.
[00:52:34] Tony Arsenal: So I think it's a great place to be. I think it's a really, really fun. Group to be a part of. And it's encouraging, it's edifying. Um, and again, it's a great place to have some, just some fun conversations. There's a meme group, there's topic discussions. We are gonna be coming up on a new series in September here.
[00:52:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, I don't think we're quite ready to say what it is. You have to keep you coming back for something, but we're gonna be coming up on a new series in September, but we have a couple more episodes that are sort of grab bag episodes. So this next series is gonna be a long one, I think. Think, I think we're probably talking about like probably like eight, nine months, if not more.
[00:53:08] Tony Arsenal: It's gonna be a long one. So if you've got a topic that you would like us to talk about on the show, here's your chance, here's your chance. Come into the the Telegram chat, look for the topics, topic suggestions, channel. Make your suggestion. There's a good chance we'll take it because we would rather talk about the things you wanna talk about than whatever random topic we come up with.
[00:53:26] Tony Arsenal: So please do check it out. T me slash for brother. We would love to hear what you're thinking.
[00:53:30] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, so let's close it out this way. And you, you already gave us one Tony, so you're under no obligation to give a second, but I would love it if you, if you had one, and I can answer first if you want to. But here's the question I think we should end with is what's one thing, one form of pop culture entertainment that you are lawfully enjoying right now that's bringing you rest?
[00:53:47] Jesse Schwamb: So you talked about Pokemon Go. Do you want a second to think? And I'll give you mine.
[00:53:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, why don't you go first and I'll come up with one.
[00:53:54] Jesse Schwamb: So the thing that I'm enjoying is I really do find that the older I get and let, listen, I was gonna give you a, a big explanation of why I enjoy this. And in the spirit of what we just talked about, I'm not gonna do that because I'm just enjoying this and I believe it's, it's something that God has given me that I'm, I'm really finding Reston.
[00:54:08] Jesse Schwamb: I've just been reading the Brandon, uh, Sanderson Missed Born series. I mean, the second book, the storytelling is awesome. Honestly, I mean, maybe one of the reasons I'm drawn to it is I'm finding, of course, all of these themes in there about redemption and sacrifice. And again, these things lead us, I think back to God the Father, when the Holy Spirit has illuminated us such that we have been regenerated and we see those things most clearly, but it's just incredible.
[00:54:37] Jesse Schwamb: Storytelling and I'm finding that it's one of those books where this is not like affirming width, it's just I'm telling you about my rest. It's one of those books. I think you've probably had this experience, Tony, where like you pick it up and you read, and time just kind of like goes by and then you look up and you're like, oh my goodness, I've been sitting here for an hour and I'm just like.
[00:54:55] Jesse Schwamb: Just two weeks ago, I sat outside reading the part, big part of the first book, actually finished a large section of it that I didn't intend to finish when I sat down and I was just sitting outside and I closed it and the ending was so good. And you ever have like a good fiction book, you close it and you just think, huh.
[00:55:10] Jesse Schwamb: You sit there for a little while and you think, and I found it was one of the most restful hours that I've had, I'll be honest, in a long time. So I'm just enjoying that kind of reading and it's good. I don't, I mean, I have a clean conscience about it. Don't worry about any of any nonsense, any of that story.
[00:55:27] Jesse Schwamb: It just goes storytelling. But somebody could easily, with great legalism come along and be like, how dare you? Yeah. You, you're reading fiction. You're reading fantasy fiction. There's some magic. Yeah, exactly. Magic and
[00:55:38] Tony Arsenal: killing.
[00:55:38] Jesse Schwamb: What is this? Get get this outta here. So I, I say that, uh, unashamedly that I'm really enjoying the Miss Born series.
[00:55:45] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. What about you?
[00:55:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, um, my wife and I just started a new series and I'll, I'll be honest, like looking at some of the trailers, we may get to a point, um, depending on how. Some of the trailers are, or we say we can't continue watching this, but we just started a new series called Chiefs of War. Have you heard about this series, Jason?
[00:56:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. It's Jason Momoa. It's a historical drama of the history of the unification of the Hawaiian Islands. Um, and it is very much rooted in history, but also, um, also legend and, um, it is deeply, deeply. Authentic is the way that I've heard it described. So Jason Momoa is, uh, of Hawaiian descent and, um, he has been sort of working on this project for like a decade.
[00:56:30] Tony Arsenal: Um, so it's, it's, uh. Pretty violent. It's a, it's a historical drama around, um, tribal warfare in a culture that was pretty brutal. Um, but it's, it's very enjoyable. It's very well done. The cinematography is beautiful. The, the camera work is absolutely gorgeous. The soundscape is gorgeous. Um. They're using authentic, uh, and I don't know how you figure this out, I'm not a linguist, but they're using authentic, sort of archaic Hawaiian dialect, which is really, really beautiful to listen to.
[00:57:01] Tony Arsenal: If you really, like, you could just close your eyes and listen to, it's a really beautiful language, so, um, I'm really enjoying it. Again, we've only watched a, a little bit of the, you know, we watched the first episode a little bit of the second. Um, some of the trailers look like there might be some spicy scenes that.
[00:57:14] Tony Arsenal: Aren't so great. Um, and maybe once we get to them we're, we might decide like, we've invested this time, but it's not gonna be something that benefits us. Right. And maybe we'll be able to get past it. Who knows? Maybe, maybe we'll be fine with it. Maybe the, maybe the trailers are all there is. So I've really been enjoying it.
[00:57:30] Tony Arsenal: Um. My wife and I tend to take every Friday evening, um, as our kind of TV date night. Um, because the other nights of the week we're trying to get stuff done and read and, and study and do our thing. Um, but yeah, it's been very good. Um, I'm also watching the Lord of the Rings series or the, the Rings of Power, um, trying to finish season two.
[00:57:50] Tony Arsenal: It's kind of a slow slog. It's not, there's nothing like overtly, I dunno, sultry in it, but it's not super. Compelling. I'm one of those people that, like, once I've started a series, I really need to feel like I, I can finish it. It's hard for me to stop a series. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think those are the two big ones that I'm watching right now that I just kind of like take a little bit of time.
[00:58:10] Tony Arsenal: I watch the Rings of Power Show like 15 to 20 minutes of time on my, during my lunch break. I don't really get a lunch break 'cause I'm a salaried person. But like when I'm eating my lunch at work, I'll. I'll put that on my laptop and watch 15 or 20 minutes at a time and then shut it off. So it'll take me like 150 years to get through the second season, but, but it's enjoyable.
[00:58:29] Tony Arsenal: That's what I've been watching.
[00:58:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. There it goes. See, by the way, that brings an interesting point, which we can't even get into right now, but you know what is also underrated? Is the tiny little legitimate breaks at work. Yeah. Where you actually do something completely different. Like you said, like read something that's just for fun, like truly for fun, not that you're trying to bone up on a study on, or it's related or not.
[00:58:49] Jesse Schwamb: Just like catch up your emails or watch a video or go to YouTube and watch something of your, for your favorite again. Yeah. Law subscriptions definitely underrated. You take a little bit of that time. It can be so. Refreshing. And then again, I think that once we, we have that time and we're rejuvenated or we're changed in it to some degree, it does cause us to worship God in a different way.
[00:59:09] Jesse Schwamb: It draws our attention back to him as the one who gives all things as the giver of life, giver of energy, giver of renewed minds, and renewed states. Like all of that happens in the course of rest. So you've heard it from us, loved ones, but we'd love to hear from you again. You gotta come hang out with us.
[00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: T Me backs us from brotherhood. Jump in the chat. Tell us how you are resting and how you decide to consume all of this lovely entertainment and pop culture that God has given us.
[00:59:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, I think that's as good of a place for us to wrap it up tonight. Uh, I appreciate this conversation. I think it's a, it's a good conversation for us to have.
[00:59:44] Tony Arsenal: We are very excited to get into our next series. But again, there are is a couple weeks here, uh, where we still have some grab egg episodes. So this is your chance and Jesse. Until next time, honor everyone.
[00:59:56] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.
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In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve into the profound significance of sharing personal testimonies as a way to reflect on God’s providence and glorify His work in our lives. Through their own faith journeys—Tony’s teenage conversion and Jesse’s early life in a faithful Christian household—they explore the transformative power of the gospel and the beauty of childlike faith. Along the way, they discuss how testimonies encourage others, strengthen the church, and remind us of God’s unchanging faithfulness across every stage of life. Whether you’re reflecting on your own story of grace or seeking ways to minister to others, this episode offers practical insights and encouragement to live out the gospel in word and deed.
Tony and Jesse emphasize that testimonies serve as a powerful reminder of God’s providential hand in the lives of His people. Looking back on our spiritual journeys allows us to see the intricate ways God has orchestrated events for His glory and our good. As Tony reflects, even the smallest moments of conviction, growth, or change are evidence of God’s unchanging faithfulness. Sharing these stories not only strengthens our faith but also encourages others by showing them that God remains active and present in the lives of His people.
Jesse highlights the beauty of childlike faith, noting that faith does not require theological sophistication but a simple trust in Jesus. He recounts the profound blessing of growing up in a Christian home where faith was modeled daily. This early exposure to the gospel, combined with the work of the Holy Spirit, laid a foundation for lifelong spiritual growth. Jesse’s story reminds us that God’s grace works powerfully in the lives of children, and nurturing their faith is a vital responsibility of parents, teachers, and the church.
The hosts passionately discuss the importance of ministering to children, emphasizing the eternal impact of teaching them the gospel. Jesse points to the compounding blessings of early faith, while Tony reflects on how small seeds of spiritual truth planted in childhood can grow into lifelong faithfulness. They call on parents, teachers, and church members to pray for and invest in the next generation, trusting that God can use even simple acts of faithfulness to draw children to Himself.
Quotes
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In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony dive deep into Martin Luther's contrasting theological concepts: the Theology of Glory and the Theology of the Cross. Beginning with a reflection on how the Theology of Glory prioritizes human strength, reason, and achievement, they explore how this perspective can mislead Christians into seeking God through displays of power and visible success. Instead, they emphasize that Luther's Theology of the Cross reveals God's power most profoundly in weakness, suffering, and humility.
The conversation highlights how the Theology of Glory often leads to arrogance, misplaced priorities, and a misunderstanding of God's nature and work in the world. Drawing from Scripture, the hosts demonstrate how the Gospel flips the world's values upside down, showing that true Christian power lies in self-sacrifice, service, and dependence on Christ. They also discuss contemporary examples of how the Theology of Glory manifests in modern Christian movements, including megachurch culture, prosperity theology, and even personal pride within small church leadership.
Jesse and Tony challenge listeners to examine their own lives and ministries in light of the Theology of the Cross. They encourage believers to adopt an attitude of humility, servanthood, and dependence on God's grace, rather than striving for worldly success or recognition. This episode is a timely reminder that the Christian life is not about glory as the world defines it, but about finding strength in weakness and victory in the cross of Christ.
John Calvin, Commentary on the Gospel According to John, trans. William Pringle, vol. 1 (Bellingham: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 1:329–330.
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In this episode of Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into Martin Luther's concept of the Theology of the Cross, a foundational idea in Reformation theology. Rooted in the Heidelberg Disputation of 1518, this theological framework challenges believers to see God's power and purpose in human suffering and weakness. The hosts explore how the cross is the ultimate revelation of God's nature, subverting traditional human expectations of power and glory.
The discussion highlights the stark contrast between the Theology of the Cross and what Luther termed the Theology of Glory. The former calls Christians to understand God's work through suffering and apparent defeat, as exemplified in Christ's crucifixion. Jesse and Tony argue that this paradigm is not only essential for understanding the gospel but also deeply relevant to the modern Christian experience, especially in a culture increasingly drawn to triumphalism and worldly notions of success.
This episode is a call to reflect on how suffering shapes the Christian life. The hosts explore how trials and hardships are not merely obstacles but divinely ordained means of sanctification. They underscore the importance of embracing weakness as a pathway to experiencing God's strength and grace, offering both theological depth and practical encouragement for listeners facing difficulties.
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In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the crucial Christian discipline of self-examination. Grounding their discussion in Scriptures like Psalm 139:23-24 and 2 Corinthians 13:5, they explore what it means to test and examine oneself in the faith. They emphasize that self-examination is not about undermining assurance but rather about deepening a believer's trust in Christ while fostering spiritual growth and humility.
The conversation highlights the necessity of prayer as the starting point for self-examination. Jesse and Tony remind listeners that asking God to search and reveal the state of one's heart is an act of worship and dependence. They also discuss the difference between examining oneself scholastically (assessing knowledge of the faith) and testing oneself by comparing one's life against the standard of Christ. Both are vital to a vibrant and gospel-centered Christian life.
Listeners are encouraged to embrace self-examination as a regular and joyful practice that leads to assurance and maturity in Christ. Far from being an exercise in despair, self-examination is presented as a means to greater dependence on the finished work of Christ and a deeper appreciation of the Holy Spirit's role in illuminating sin and pointing believers to their Savior.
The Biblical Call to Self-Examination
The discussion begins with an exploration of Psalm 139 and 2 Corinthians 13:5, where Scripture commands believers to examine their hearts and test their faith. This practice is necessary for spiritual growth and assurance in Christ.
Self-Examination as a Spiritual Discipline
Jesse and Tony underscore the importance of self-examination as a regular practice, not just for addressing sin but also for recognizing God's work in one's life. They emphasize starting this process with prayer, asking God to reveal both sin and righteousness.
The Role of the Holy Spirit in Self-Examination
The Holy Spirit plays a vital role in guiding believers through the process of self-examination. He convicts of sin, assures of righteousness, and leads believers to deeper dependence on Christ.
Balancing Conviction and Assurance
The hosts caution against the danger of turning self-examination into morbid introspection. Instead, they encourage listeners to see it as a hopeful practice that strengthens faith and magnifies Christ's finished work.
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In this episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the topic of demons and spiritual warfare, exploring what the Bible teaches about these spiritual entities and their activity in the world. The conversation begins with an examination of Job 1, where Satan appears in the heavenly court to accuse Job, demonstrating how God's sovereignty encompasses even the actions of the devil and his demons. The discussion emphasizes that while demons are real and dangerous, they operate under the ultimate authority of God, who uses even their actions to fulfill His purposes.
The hosts also discuss the role of Christ's death and resurrection in fundamentally altering the influence and power of Satan and his demons. Drawing from Revelation 20, they explain how Christ's victory has "bound" Satan, limiting his ability to deceive the nations and opening the way for the Gospel to spread to all people. This pivotal event in redemptive history marks a shift in the spiritual realm, giving Christians the confidence to stand firm against spiritual opposition, knowing that the ultimate victory has already been won in Christ.
Additionally, Jesse and Tony reflect on various Biblical accounts of demonic activity, such as the demoniac at Gennesaret and the failed exorcism by the seven sons of Sceva in Acts 19. These stories highlight the power of Jesus' name, the reality of spiritual warfare, and the dangers of invoking Christ's authority without true faith. The episode concludes with a call to Christians to prepare for spiritual battles through Scripture, prayer, and reliance on the power of Christ.
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In this episode of Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal tackle the often-overlooked topic of spiritual warfare, focusing on the biblical truths about angels and demons. The discussion begins by affirming the reality of Satan and his demons as active agents in the world, working to oppose God and deceive humanity. Drawing from both Scripture and personal experiences, the hosts emphasize the importance of being aware of the spiritual battles that Christians face daily and how these confrontations are a central part of our spiritual journey.
The conversation highlights the need for a balanced approach to understanding demonic activity—avoiding both sensationalism and denial. Jesse and Tony explore the biblical descriptions of angels and demons, noting their similarities and differences while pointing out the limitations of demonic power under God's sovereignty. They also discuss how demons often operate through deception, appearing in forms meant to confuse or distract, and how believers can recognize and resist these schemes.
This episode encourages Christians to take spiritual warfare seriously by relying on the supremacy of Christ, equipping themselves with the armor of God, and remaining vigilant against the enemy's tactics. Whether you're new to the concept of spiritual warfare or looking to deepen your understanding, this conversation offers practical insights and theological depth to help you stay rooted in faith.
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In this engaging episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal dive into the rich theological and practical significance of the Sabbath in Reformed theology. They begin by discussing the dual aspects of the Sabbath as a creation ordinance and a ceremonial practice, explaining how it is both a moral obligation for all humanity and a type that pointed forward to Christ's redemptive work. The hosts emphasize that the Sabbath is a blessing, not a burden, designed for rest, worship, and spiritual renewal.
The conversation explores how the Sabbath transitions from the seventh day in the Old Testament to the first day, the Lord's Day, in the New Testament. This shift highlights its fulfillment in Christ's resurrection, which establishes a new rhythm of worship and rest for Christians. The hosts also tackle the complex issue of Sabbath observance in persecuted regions, addressing how believers might navigate the challenges of gathering for worship in secrecy or under threat.
Throughout the episode, Jesse and Tony reflect on why the Sabbath remains vital in the Christian life. They emphasize that while Christ is our ultimate rest, the weekly observance of the Lord's Day continues to foster spiritual growth, communal worship, and reliance on God's provision. The discussion is punctuated with practical insights, theological clarity, and a pastoral heart for the global church.