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In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dig into one of the more sobering parables of Luke 12 — the faithful and unfaithful steward. After Peter's pointed question about who the parable is really for, Jesus doubles down with a story that cuts to the heart of what it means to serve God's people. The hosts explore how this passage speaks narrowly to office bearers — pastors, elders, and teachers — but extends its reach to every believer through the priesthood of all believers. From encouraging your preacher with specific feedback, to welcoming the socially awkward newcomer, to bearing with the brother who drives you crazy, this episode makes the case that stewardship of the Word is not just a clerical duty — it's a whole-church calling.
When Peter asks Jesus, "Is this parable for us or for everyone?" Jesus responds not with a direct answer but with another parable — one that intensifies rather than narrows the application. Tony and Jesse argue that the parable speaks most immediately to those in formal ministerial office: the apostles, elders, and teaching pastors entrusted with feeding God's flock through Word and sacrament. But the authority vested in those offices does not belong to a clerical class in isolation. It represents the whole church's responsibility, focused and executed through those ordained roles. Every believer participates in this feeding ministry — through encouraging the preacher, building up the newcomer, exercising their spiritual gifts, and simply being present and engaged in the life of the congregation. Stewardship of the Word is not a professional designation; it is the vocation of every Christian.
One of the most practically liberating threads in this episode is the insistence that faithful stewardship does not require an official title or a program slot. Jesse points out that the servant who receives the blessing is simply "found at his post" — doing what he was already doing, without calculation or fanfare. This is what perseverance looks like in practice: consistent, ordinary obedience. Showing up to church. Engaging in conversation after the service. Speaking a word of Scripture to a struggling friend. Greeting a newcomer with warmth before they ever find a seat. These are not peripheral acts of charity — they are the very substance of what it means to give fellow believers "their portion of food at the proper time." The mundane rhythm of faithful church membership, repeated week after week, is itself a profound act of stewardship.
The language of verse 46 — being "cut in pieces" and "placed with the unfaithful" — is unmistakably the language of final judgment, not fatherly correction. This is deliberately alarming, and Tony and Jesse are careful not to soften it. Yet they equally insist that this warning is not designed primarily to terrorize — it is a means of grace. Borrowing from Alistair Begg's image of the warning sign at the cliff's edge, Tony observes that the sign does not physically restrain the one who intends to jump. It serves the person who has no desire to fall — preserving them by keeping the danger clearly in view. For the believer in Christ, reading this parable and feeling a fresh urgency to serve, to encourage, to bear with a difficult brother, to welcome the single nurse who doesn't quite fit in — that is the warning doing exactly what God designed it to do.
"We all have this responsibility to feed our fellow Christians… There is this general office that all Christians bear, this priesthood of all believers, where we are responsible for feeding each other, and at times that takes the shape of appointing teachers and elders and deacons who do that in official capacity." — Tony Arsenal
"The best thing that you can do for your local church is, one, to show up, two, to be engaged, three, to talk to people. If you're doing those things, what you're gonna find is opportunities suddenly open up both for prayer and just kind words and encouragement." — Jesse Schwamb
"Christ himself is the faithful one over God's house, and he bore the stripes that the unfaithful servant deserves. And so believers, because of that, we watch and we serve out of gratitude to a master who remarkably promises to gird himself up and to serve us." — Jesse Schwamb
[00:01:04] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 508 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.
[00:01:16] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother.
[00:01:17] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe the only thing better than one parable is one parable stuffed inside another parable-
[00:01:24] turducken style, and that's exactly where we're hanging out in Luke chapter 12. Jesus has given these two great parables about a master returning from a wedding feast and the thief who comes unannounced, and then Peter asks what everybody's thinking, which is, "Uh, who's this for? Is this- Are you saying this-
[00:01:42] for us or for everybody?" And so rather than answer that maybe more directly than we would like, Jesus instead goes and doubles down and delivers yet another parable, and that begins in verse 41. So we're gonna get to that. We're gonna close out this little section of Luke, and we're [00:02:00] gonna just dive right into this parable turducken.
[00:02:02] I suppose not truly a turducken because there's no third parable inside a parable inside a parable, but-
[00:02:08] Tony Arsenal: True ...
[00:02:08] Jesse Schwamb: I do love, like, the double stack, the double stuff of parables. So this is not a food podcast, but I suppose it could be.
[00:02:17] Tony Arsenal: It could be. Have you ever had turducken?
[00:02:19] Jesse Schwamb: Um, no, actually, I have not had turducken.
[00:02:21] I had to think for a second because I have had delicious meat stuffed inside other delicious meats, but that's not one of them.
[00:02:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. It's pretty good.
[00:02:29] Jesse Schwamb: Is it?
[00:02:29] Tony Arsenal: It's worth, it's worth trying. Coming up on Thanksgiving, it's, it's worth considering.
[00:02:33] Jesse Schwamb: Well, there we go. See, listen.
[00:02:35] Jesse Schwamb: And that, that probably wasn't even the next part of what we're about to do, which of course is bring forward all of these great confessional creeds into our own little time and segment of affirmations, denials, where we affirm with something that we like or we deny against something that we don't like so much.
[00:02:51] That one was just free of charge. Anytime you can get some kind of good meat wrapped inside another good meat, that's probably good business for the most part. But instead of [00:03:00] that, I'm asking you, Tony, are you affirming with something on this episode? Or are you going the denial route and denying against something?
[00:03:08] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna keep it positive tonight. Uh, I am affirming with a... I don't know how new of a feature it is. I just stumbled upon it in Logos Bible Software. Um, I was going in, um, usually around this time of year, what I do is I set up my reading plan for the next year, and I do that so I can get a little bit ahead, so when I fall a little bit behind, it all kinda evens out in the wash.
[00:03:31] And I notice they have a new option when you're setting up a reading plan, and we've been talking about how great Logos reading plans are for, like, a decade now. And, um, they now have an option, and again, this might be one of those options that's not available to everybody depending on whether you're using a free version or a paid version and what level, I'm not sure.
[00:03:49] But it has an option for you to set up a 30, up to a 31-day reading plan based on an AI prompt. And so to sort of put it through the [00:04:00] paces to see, uh, if it was really legit or if it was just sort of like scraping stuff, I asked it to come up with a 31-day comprehensive reading plan to cover the doctrines of theology proper.
[00:04:13] Um, I don't have it. I didn't start the reading plan, so I don't have them up in front of me, but it was legit. It was pretty sweet. And I'm sure you could go into something like, uh, ChatGPT, or there could be something, you know, going into something like Google Gemini, and you could do the same thing and probably come up with it.
[00:04:30] Um, and then you would have to, like, manually put it into Logos or manually look it up on your own Bible. But it's pretty cool to be able to just type the prompt right into, to Logos. Um, it would also be slick if you were wanting to study a particular set of books or a particular range of verses. Um, you could set that up.
[00:04:47] You could do something like, um, you know, "Give me, uh, 31 days of, of readings in the prophets that covers all the major themes, and I wanna read 15 minutes a day." And it would, it would [00:05:00] calculate that all out for you and come up with it. So it's a super sweet feature. Um, again, it uses some of the premium features, I think.
[00:05:07] I don't think the free version has full access to the AI, so you'd have to play around with it and see what your level of access has, but it was cool. It's, it's one of those things that I think, um, AI is good for a lot of things, and it's not so great for some other things. Uh, this is one of those things that I think it's really good for, being able to aggregate data and being able to, like, slice and dice things up in ways that a, a human could do, um, but probably couldn't do quick enough to make it something you actually wanna sit down and do.
[00:05:33] Um, and like, if you already knew all the verses of divine simplicity or theology proper, you probably wouldn't need to do a reading plan to do it. Um, so it's cool. It's a really sweet feature. If you have Logos, check it out. You can check it out just by starting a reading plan. Um, and if it's available to you, it'll show up kind of in the area where you're selecting, like, do you wanna read the whole Bible?
[00:05:55] Do you wanna read specific passages? It's in that area as one of the options. It's very cool. [00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Jesse Schwamb: I'm here for this. I think that's a great use of AI that we've kind of promulgated before. It's just so awesome to help you curate stuff. So if you wanna learn a new topic, a new skill, a new discipline, but all the better inside something like Logos, where it's gonna have, like, a sandbox where you can really- Yeah
[00:06:15] dive into stuff you're super interested in. I love this idea.
[00:06:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And you know, I, I, um, I am actually starting to drift away from even calling it AI when I can get away with it. Um, because calling it intelligence, uh, carries all these connotations with it that don't... It doesn't really... It's not really real.
[00:06:36] Like, it's not really an intelligence, it's just a statistical model. It's just big numbers that our human brains can't calculate, like, or, or even, even if we were using tools to do it. Um, but what is true about these large language models and these other forms of artificial intelligence is they're only as good as their training data and the algorithms that are baked into them.
[00:06:57] That's right. And so when you're using AI [00:07:00] with, you know, ChatGPT or Gemini Because it's basically statistics and it's looking at averages across large swaths of information, the information's probably not gonna be drastically different, uh, even with some of the biases that are built into it. But when you have an AI model that's being developed and, you know, categorized and curated, um, obviously I think they're probably utilizing one of the major AI models, but they're allowed to tweak it and, and change the assumptions as, as part of their software and part of their platform.
[00:07:30] Uh, you're probably gonna get more reliable, uh, less biased against Christianity kind of, um, kind of results that you might get in some other types of AI models. So it's cool to use it even if you're doing it in something like Gemini or ChatGPT. Uh, but it's really nice to have it right baked into something like Logos.
[00:07:48] And I haven't used Logos's, um, AI features all that much, but they have a fairly robust AI integrated into the system. It works like most AIs where you get a certain number [00:08:00] of credits in a given period of time. It's probably monthly tied to your subscription level. But it is helpful. There's been times when I'm preparing for the podcast and I'll basically say like, "I run a, I host a podcast and we're studying this passage.
[00:08:12] Can you help me prep for my show?" And it'll come up with a pretty robust, uh, set of examples and things to, to do that. So it's very slick. Uh, again, AI is good for a lot of things. It's not so great for other things. This aggregating data, slicing it up, is one of the things it's really good at, and it does a very good job with this, uh, AI reading plan.
[00:08:31] Jesse Schwamb: I'm realizing that I'm gonna go with the affirmation as well that's not too far away from yours, but it's kinda like kicking it old school style. So I've got a website for everybody that I think is pretty slick, but it's slick in like the most mundane way. So it's called normaltools.com. It's a collection of 193 different simple minimalistic calculators.
[00:08:52] There's no account, no download, nothing between you and just the answer here. It's searchable and organized by category. So for instance, what I [00:09:00] found to be like really interesting is all these like building calculators, so like a paint calculator, gravel calculator, the tile calculator with waste, or how much drywall do I need, or what kind of fence material calculator do I need to undergo if I'm gonna put up a fence, I guess.
[00:09:15] And then Scott, what drew me to this originally, all of the great money calculators, mortgage, loan, amortization, sales tax, that kind of thing. So many though other weird things that I've just enjoyed clicking into I'm looking at it right now. Here's an aquarium volume calculator, which I presume would be really super helpful to somebody.
[00:09:33] Or if you wanna flip a coin a million times, you can do that here as well. And then it's got weird things like TikTok shop free calculator, or all kinds of, like, random things in, outside the technology space, like a lot for design or developers. Base64 encoder, a Regex tester, URL encoder. Yes, please. So it's, like, just a really fun, interesting site that's got all these calculators.
[00:09:59] And what I love [00:10:00] about them is presumably, and I, I have done this I guess, you could just be out and about and do this on the browser on your phone, and again, it's just, like, simple, simple, no ads, and it's just a great way to calculate a bunch of stuff that I think we come across in daily parts of our lives, and this makes it really easy to get the answers that you need without a lot of fuss.
[00:10:20] So normaltools.com. It's kind of like, it's not anti-AI, it's just kind of like taking it back old school. You know? Like, this website looks like- Yeah ... it could have been built, like, 20 years ago, and it's still just- ...
[00:10:32] Tony Arsenal: plugging
[00:10:32] Jesse Schwamb: away, doing its thing.
[00:10:34] Tony Arsenal: It's a GeoCities website.
[00:10:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's, yeah.
[00:10:39] Tony Arsenal: Runs on AOL Dial-Up.
[00:10:41] Yeah, I, I mean, I think, um, i- sort of in that light, I think- There are a lot of times that we overcomplicate things, and sometimes the simple, easy tool gets the job done. I know, I know people at work who, when they need to do a basic arithmetic [00:11:00] question or basic problem, they'll do things like pull up ChatGPT, and, uh- Right
[00:11:05] I suppose that's fine, uh, except for the fact that Chat- you know, the large language models are notoriously bad at simple arithmetic. Um, and simple questions a lot of times trip them up because of the way statistics and averages work. So sometimes really the best thing you can do is pull out a basic calculator app on your phone or pull up an Excel spreadsheet to run your math instead of trying to do it really complicated.
[00:11:28] So knowing that there's a lot of these pre-built tools, um, kind of built in, into one place that's easily accessible, that's a, that's a pretty cool affirmation.
[00:11:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I love it because I'd encourage people just to go check it out in Surfic 'cause it's just kind of fun. There's some things on here that I think maybe would be helpful and, and certainly might pop up in, like, your daily life.
[00:11:47] Like there's a number to words converter, which is kind of cool, which just allows you to throw in a number and it will convert it to, like, English speech. In other words, how would you actually say this number out loud? Which could be helpful if you're trying to figure out, [00:12:00] like, is that billion or trillion, or I want to make sure I say that properly.
[00:12:03] Yeah. So there's lots of, like, just funky and fun, a little bit off the wall, but not unuseful, if that makes sense. There's a, a lorem- Yeah ... ipsum generator. So I guess if you wanted to generate- Nice ... a bunch of text. A- again, all these random things which I presume they showed up on this list because somebody was like, "I need a, a CSV viewer," or, "I need a PSD to PNG converter."
[00:12:25] So again, if that's your jam, then it turns out somebody's already got it set up for you, and it's, again, like no logins required, no accounts set up, no, you know, f- free with a subscription to come later on. It's just nerdy calculators and 193 of them for you to pass the time with.
[00:12:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I'm looking at this, uh, right now, and I think you're right.
[00:12:48] This... These are the kinds of, like, tools you would've built on your TI-83 Plus- Yes ... when you were in- Yeah ... like, pre-calculus class 20 years ago. Um, but, like, uh, I'm just [00:13:00] looking at this one here, like, Roman numeral converter- Yeah. ... that all of us- Yeah, it's kinda cool ... do really well until you start getting to, like, L-
[00:13:05] and, like, L minus. Like, I think, like, y- if you're conversant in that, it's easy enough to do, but if, if you... Most of us don't deal with Roman numerals greater than X. Like, other- Right ... once you get up to, like, 40 and you're dealing with, you know, Ms and Ls, like, it's hard to remember what those different ones are.
[00:13:25] Um, markdown, there's lots of stuff about markdown, which is great. We've talked a lot about Obsidian in the past. Right. Uh, markdown tools. Um, there's a password generator, which is great if you don't wanna utilize your online password generator. Uh, I know some people have concerns about that. So lots of cool tests here.
[00:13:41] I think, I think, um, I think you're right. There's just a bunch, a bunch, a bunch of really simple, straightforward kinds of things. Even things like QR code generator, uh, aspect ratio calculator. Like, there's lots of different, excuse me, lots of different things that are, uh, good, you know, use cases for this [00:14:00] website.
[00:14:00] And I think probably the reason it looks so simple and janky is because they want it to be accessible on- Yes ... a mobile device. Yeah. So there's not a lot of flash to it. Yeah. It's, it's really fun. Um, solar battery, solar battery bank calculator.
[00:14:12] Jesse Schwamb: I know. Once you start, it's hard to stop. I know we have a lot of, like, really talented, handy brothers and sisters.
[00:14:19] So I would just direct everybody to the building section, because again, somebody out there is probably like, "Hey, is there a really quick French drain gravel calculator?" I don't even know what that is. It just says, "Estimate trench gravel, fabric area, pipe length, and drainage volume for a French drain." Or there's stuff with a stud wall calculator, stuff with shingles, asphalt driveway calculator.
[00:14:42] Somebody definitely needs that, right? So pond liner calculator? Yes, please. Find the linear dimensions, surface area overlap, and approximate water volume for a pond. Why not? So, and for a person that, like, I love mathematics, what I've really been enjoying about these is going in and seeing how [00:15:00] somebody set up these.
[00:15:01] So I can think about, like, problem-solving in my own life. So I also just enjoy, like, and I think you're the same way, Tony. Like, who doesn't love a tool that's been set up that's just, like, really clever but very simple, and provides you, again, with, like, a discrete answer to help direct you on your way?
[00:15:14] There's something beautiful about that. It's like a taking dominion of the world. And so I really love, like, these types of tools.
[00:15:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's great.
[00:15:22] Tony Arsenal: One tool that I just spotted that I think, uh, gives us a good segue into something. There's a Patreon earnings calculator. Uh, I'm not gonna try to put numbers in here, but, uh, one of the things that we've been trying to, to talk about and trying to bring up, uh, more frequently and earlier in the show because we're good at podcasting, uh, is that we have a, we have a Patreon account and we do love when people support the show financially.
[00:15:45] Um, things are getting more expensive, and so although we've had a, a pretty stable, uh, number of people who have supported the show, many of them for years, we're seeing two things happen. One of the things that happen is the cost of all of our [00:16:00] expenses for things like our, our hosting fees, our ed- audio editing software, um, other overhead kinds of things that we need to pay on a regular basis.
[00:16:09] Those costs are going up. Uh, and un- sort of alongside of that, everybody's budget is getting a little tighter, and so we are starting to see, we have started to see some people who've been longtime supporters have chosen to withdraw their support, which is fine. We, we love them. Absolutely. Uh, we recognize that everybody...
[00:16:26] We always say, "Once you've met your financial obligations, especially to your local church, if there's a little left over." Uh, what we're seeing is less people have a little less, uh, a little bit left over. So if you're one of those people who has, uh, benefited from the show and, and is, uh, is able to consider supporting us, um, we're not in any risk of having to shut the show down or anything like that.
[00:16:48] We're not, you know, it's, we're not there. That's not this kind of announcement. But it would be, uh, extremely beneficial if you are a person who has thought about supporting the show, even if it was something as minor as a dollar [00:17:00] or two a month. Every little bit helps. Uh, and we are able to do this show week in and week out for free, not put up any paywalls, not, not have any sort of special gimmicks or Purple Mattress advertisements, although I love my Purple Mattress, and if you need a new mattress you should think about a Purple Mattress.
[00:17:17] But you're not getting interrupted in the middle of the show with some advertisement for, you know, like a new power bank or something like that. Like I, you know, what the, the latest thing you're hearing on every other podcast that you listen to. Um, the only reason we do that- Is because people have supported the show and are continuing to support the show.
[00:17:36] So if you are a person who has a little bit left over after you've fulfilled all of your obligations to your local church, uh, to keep your family finances stable, uh, please do consider going to patreon.com/reformedbrotherhood. It's a monthly, uh, they call it a subscription, but it's a monthly support. So whatever you think you can give per month, if that's something that you're interested in.
[00:17:57] Again, i- if everyone who listened to the [00:18:00] show put a dollar in a month, we would have more than enough to not only be able to pay for our expenses, but to do some other kinds of initiatives that Jesse and I have been talking about between the two of us for quite a long time. Um, we just aren't able to do that right now, but we would love to be able to move the podcast forward, to expand things, to provide other offerings and other shows and services.
[00:18:21] Um, so if that's something that you're interested in, please do consider going to patreon.com/reformedbrotherhood and dropping a dollar or two a month.
[00:18:29] Jesse Schwamb: And thanks to everyone who has given in the past or currently gives to, again, as we say before, tear down those Jericho pay walls. We're so grateful, and that's why I'm going to go exactly forthrightly to Luke 12 and not to a ZipRecruiter ad at this moment.
[00:18:44] Jesse Schwamb: So let's go to Luke 12, and again, just a quick reminder in case you're keeping track at home, which I hope you are, is at this point, Jesus, in his ministry, he's journeying to Jerusalem. And so he's teaching really the disciples first, though there's clearly a large throng of [00:19:00] people around him. And in this particular part of his ministry, he's teaching about Pharisaic hypocrisy.
[00:19:06] He tells the parable of the rich fool. He forbids anxiety, these things we've talked about before. And then he does turn to this topic in Luke 12 of watchfulness, and he does that with those two examples of the servants waiting for their master to return from the wedding feast, and then the thief who comes unannounced.
[00:19:22] And Peter, of course, as we said, asks this question in verse fir- 41, which is where I will pick it up for us on this episode.
[00:19:29] Jesse Schwamb: "Now Peter said, 'Lord, are you addressing this parable to us or to everyone else as well?' And the Lord said, 'Who then is the faithful and prudent servant whom his master will put in charge of his servants to give them their rations at the proper time?
[00:19:45] Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that slave says in his heart, "My master will be a long time in coming," and begins to beat the male and [00:20:00] female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect and at an hour he does not know, and he will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
[00:20:13] And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many beatings. But the one who did not know it and committed deeds worthy of beating will receive but a few.'" From everyone who has been given much, much will be required. And to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more
[00:20:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:20:35] Tony Arsenal: This is one of those, um, parables that is sobering, uh, I think initially because of just how sort of stark and graphic it is, right? Right. A lot of parables are sobering and a little bit scary once you start to dig into them and understand what the symbolism means. This one is a little bit intimidating because of the symbolism itself, because [00:21:00] of the parable itself.
[00:21:01] We're not talking about a, uh, an agricultural parable about, you know, seeds and birds and thorns. We're talking about a parable where the master cuts his wicked servants into pieces.
[00:21:15] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:21:15] Tony Arsenal: Um, and so I think it bears us having a little bit of gravitas on this one, that it's understandable that this parable is not one that I think you hear taught directly or taught a lot.
[00:21:29] I, again, I, I, I don't remember every sermon that I've ever heard, um, but I feel like I have a relatively intuitive grasp of the parts of the Bible that I've experienced good teaching on because y- you know, I have a fairly good memory, especially for this kind of thing. And so I, I usually can recall something I've been taught about a passage when I read it.
[00:21:53] I don't recall really anything about this passage, and what that tells me is that in a lot of ways it [00:22:00]probably means that I haven't sat under teaching where this has been a central passage for significant amounts of time, either in seminary classes or in sermons, or even in things like podcasts that I've listened to.
[00:22:11] So we wanna come to this with humility, recognizing that this is a parable that a lot of people probably don't have a lot of, um, direct exposure to, uh, probably have not done a lot of study on. I certainly am a novice in a lot of ways when it comes to the Lucan parables, so I wanna be tentative. But this is a parable that's a little bit scary, and I think it's supposed to be a little bit scary.
[00:22:32] I think that's part of the point of what Christ is getting at here.
[00:22:34] Jesse Schwamb: It certainly reminds us, like, very forcibly of the importance of handling the word of God always with care and humility. I can't help but think that as we look ahead it's not ... It is, of course, j- uh, as well, like, this idea of, like, very kind of graphic language, but also there's some weirdness, so to speak, in verse 48, right?
[00:22:52] So I think part of this is not only do we have these really kind of expressive response from Jesus here, and the [00:23:00] actions that are taken as he demonstrates those who are the wicked servants, but also what's up with verse 48, which seems to show something of there, well, there's those who are ignorant of the master's will and that can mean they receive something different or lesser than the one who actively did understand the m- the ser- or the master's will, rather, and chose not to do it.
[00:23:18] So there's a lot compacted in here that I would say n- it's not necessarily tricky, but is worth settling in on. It's worth having a conversation about. Yeah And so, uh, yeah, I think the best way we can do it is kind of try to take it phrase by phrase here. It's related to what Jesus talked about before, so some of that will be, I think, repetitive as we think through it.
[00:23:36] Jesse Schwamb: But it does start with this idea, again, of the faithful and prudent steward or servant. We're back to this idea that, once again, there is somebody... There's, there's a principal-agent problem. There are the principal, in this case the, the master who owns all the things, and there's the agent who acts on behalf of the master.
[00:23:54] This is, like, a classic relational problem, I guess, that transcends time itself. Anywhere you have [00:24:00]somebody acting at the bequest or on behalf of somebody else, you get this issue. It's interesting here that, again, Jesus invokes this, I think, predominantly to show, once again, that this steward doesn't own anything.
[00:24:13] The household is the master's. And in just looking through this, I'm seeing that there's a lot of different opinions even of here about what we're talking about because, like, it's third retellin'. So we've, we've already had Jesus speak somewhat to a similar situation. There was the master who went away, and the servants who were more or less lazy or forsook their responsibilities.
[00:24:32] This, though, seems to be, like, an intensification of that first one. And some have probably promulgated here that we're talking about o- like, office bearers as well. Like, there's an elevation. Peter asked, "Who are you ta- telling this to?" And Jesus kind of elevates that language, intensifies it, in that we should be asking ourselves, is this particular referring to those who are stewards of the mystery of God?
[00:24:54] Does that include all of us, a la, like, 1 Corinthians, or is there somebody more specific in [00:25:00] here, those whose task is to feed the flock through word and sacraments? I think they're all in play. I don't know what you think, but I think, I think to some degree there's all play. There's a m- there's something in there for all of us.
[00:25:09] But certainly there's an authority here that is ministerial, not just magisterial, in that, again, Jesus is doubling down on this example because it's, it gets more intense.
[00:25:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:25:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think, um, I think, I think that's right, that this really is a parable that perhaps is maybe, like, narrowly given to those who have some sort of formal service to the people of God vocationally.
[00:25:36] But one of the things that I've become more, more and more convinced of, um, maybe somewhat surprisingly since I've joined the OPC, is that the, the special office of elder and teacher, um, i- in the OPC we would talk about teaching elders and ruling elders, um, and then deacons are almost sort of like a sub- subset or a sort of [00:26:00] a subordinate, uh, office.
[00:26:02] But th- those who have some sort of formal, um, authority and service to the church in some sort of, like, official sense, that that power that is an authority that is invested in those offices is not some sort of, like- Really utterly unique authority. Right It's actually an authority that is sort of like focused in those offices, but it's the authority of the whole church being executed through those offices.
[00:26:28] So the, the people who are sitting in the pews, they don't have any less of a, of a place in the teaching and the preaching of the word. They just exercise that, that sort of general office of Christian, they exercise that through appointing elders and teachers. And so I think, you know, when we talk about this, to me it seems like in verse 42, it's funny 'cause this is like classically, you know, c- Peter asks a question and Jesus answers the question with a question.
[00:26:57] And he says, um, [00:27:00] sort of the back half of this passage, "To give them their portion of food at the proper time." Like this is the task that in this parable the wise manager is given. It's not this general... You know, when we talked about like the doorkeeper was sort of like, he wasn't really just the doorkeeper, he was sort of like the general manager of the house, right?
[00:27:18] He's like Bronson- Right ... from Downton Abbey. Like he's the manager of the house, right? Um, this is not necessarily the same scenario. This is specifically the steward who is in charge of distributing food to the other servants. So I think w- who is in view, and especially since Peter is the one asking the question-
[00:27:39] Jesse Schwamb: Right
[00:27:39] Tony Arsenal: Pe- you know, Christ is answering the question. Peter says, "Who are you telling this parable for, us or for all?" Well, I think the proximate answer, the immediate answer is Christ is saying, "It's for you guys. It's for those of you who are gonna distribute the food to the rest of the Body of Christ, who are gonna distribute the food to the rest of the people of God."
[00:27:58] But we shouldn't take that [00:28:00] answer In the narrowest sense to say like, well, then that means it doesn't have anything to do with the everyday average Christian. We all have a responsibility in the church for feeding each other the word of God, right? That's right. There is this general office that all Christians bear, this priesthood of all believers, where we are responsible for feeding each other, and at times that takes the shape of appointing teachers and elders and deacons who do that in official capacity, and at other times it takes a more informal or unofficial sense.
[00:28:33] And I don't say unofficial in like a pejorative sense, I mean like non-office bearing sense. Un-office-ial, like unofficial sense that we all have this responsibility to feed each other and to share the gospel with each other, to proclaim the word to each other. We sing and teach each other in word and in, uh, in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, right?
[00:28:56] So it's not as though, um, just because this may be narrowly [00:29:00] connected to the office of apostle or to the office of elder or whatever, you know, wherever that line is drawn, we still have to read this understanding it really... That because it even, maybe especially because it is targeting more of an official or, uh, a narrow sense, that actually extends a lot to the rest of the body of Christ as well.
[00:29:20] Right. So it's not like we can just ignore the parable or go like, "Well, this is just for the office bearers," or, "This is just for those who feed the sheep." This is really for everybody. It's just a particular way that is for everybody, I
[00:29:32] Jesse Schwamb: think. I, no, I, I'm totally with you on that. I don't think there's a means of escape here.
[00:29:37] I don't think you can be like, "Well, this is for my pastor. I'm totally good." I think there is something where, like, the office bearers are pointedly being asked whether the people are being fed. Of course, not where, like, the ministry's impressive by some kind of standard. But by extension, it makes sense as well that every believer is a steward of the gifts received.
[00:29:55] Jesse Schwamb: What I find interesting about that is, um, you know, Peter's one asking the question, and then in [00:30:00] 1 Peter 4, uh, 10 we read, "As each one has received a gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." So here's my not-so-hot take on this. I think generally most Christians, for the most part, they're sensitive to the, the, say the workings of the church writ large, and then the one of which they are part of.
[00:30:17] They would probably be quick to recognize, well, of course I know that, like, the pastor isn't supposed to do all the things in the church, that, that we are supposed to serve as well. Where I think there's still, like, a lot of undervalue and lack of appreciation is for this idea of what Peter says in, you know, 1 Peter 4:10.
[00:30:34] That is, do we actively think, though, I think as you're kind of challenging us through this parable, do we actively think, though, that we ought to take the gifts that we have, and if we are not actively employing them to serve one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God, the riches that He's given us, then are we falling short of what should be our normative duty- Yeah
[00:30:53] in serving one another? I think that's somewhat w- of what's at stake here. Not just, like, well, do tithe, [00:31:00] and, uh, you know, do you maybe do nursery once in a while to pick something up. If all of us, if it's true, have received talents and gifts from God through the Holy Spirit, actively empowered in our lives, the question is, do we forthrightly and thoughtfully seek to employ those gifts regularly in the course of our lives in the context of the church?
[00:31:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:31:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think, um, you know, when we kind of transition now to how Christ... It's so funny, 'cause, like, Peter asks a question, Christ answers that question with a question, but then answers his own question. Yeah, that's right. And I mean, really we are in the turducken level here. Like, this is turducken inception level parable here.
[00:31:41] That's beautiful. He answers the question by saying, "Blessed is the servant whom the master will find so doing when he comes." Well, what is the, what is the servant doing, right? What is the so doing? Well, the so doing is giving them their portion of food at the proper time.
[00:31:57] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:31:58] Tony Arsenal: Right?
[00:31:58] Tony Arsenal: So he's saying, who is the faithful and wise manager who gives the portion of the food at the proper time?
[00:32:06] Well, the faithful and wise manager is the one who is giving them their portion of food at the proper time. So it's like this circular answer. And, and I think that, um- We can very easily, as I said, we can fall into this trap that this just refers narrowly to the office of those who preach and teach the word, or who minister in a sort of like professional sense or vocational sense.
[00:32:31] I think this is broader than that in that we all have this obligation to feed our fellow Christians- Right on ... and to be fed by our fellow Christians. Yes. I think, um, you know, I think it's, it's interesting because when we think about ways to serve the church, this may f- fly sort of in the face of what, what people think and, and maybe that's good, I guess.
[00:32:54] Tony Arsenal: Um, I don't think most people would think about coming to church, [00:33:00] listening, listening faithfully to the sermon, and praying that God transforms you and other Christians around you, and contributing in basic financial ways, right? And there are a lot of people out there who don't have, uh... They don't have the bandwidth to serve in the nursery, and I think, like, that's the obvious answer we use because-
[00:33:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right
[00:33:23] Tony Arsenal: let's be honest, like, serving in the nursery is not the most joyful thing that anyone in the church does. I kn- I actually know some people who love to serve in nursery, so it's not everybody. But I think most people who serve in the nursery do so because, like, it's a job that needs to get done, and I can do that job.
[00:33:39] There's not a ton of people that are like, "I love going to church just to hang out with a bunch of other people's little kids." Maybe there's some, but I, I also think, um We sometimes get, get almost too task-oriented.
[00:33:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:33:54] Tony Arsenal: And I say this coming from a church that, um, my previous church, which was your dad's [00:34:00] church, one of the biggest challenges we had, and one of the reasons that we sort of theorized why, um, growth was a challenge, is you almost have to have, like, a certain, like, uh, critical mass for visitors who come to your church to feel like it's okay to stay.
[00:34:16] Um, because, like, it- it's hard, you know, it's hard to come to a church of, like, seven people and feel like you wanna come back the next week. Like, just, just being honest. And I think sometimes even something as simple as coming to church, listening, attending to the means of grace faithfully and dutifully, um, and then, you know, contributing financially and finding concrete ways to help when you can.
[00:34:38] Maybe that is, uh, serving in nursery. Maybe it's, maybe you're that person.
[00:34:43] Tony Arsenal: There's one, um, I don't have a ton of opportunities to exhort the congregation. Um, maybe three, four times a year tops. But there are, there are a couple people in the congregation who I, I can just tell by the way they approach me after a sermon, they make it a point to find something that edified them during the service- Hmm
[00:35:04] and s- a question to ask. And not only do they do that, but I can tell by the fact that their kids come and do the same thing, that they've encouraged their kids to do that. I can tell you that as someone who occasionally, um, I'm using the technical term here, I'll just get more casual, like, who occasionally preaches, it is so encouraging when someone comes up to me and gives me a specific thing that encouraged them from the service.
[00:35:28] It's easy to say, "Oh, pastor or preacher or whatever," it's, it's easy to say, like, "Oh, that was such a great message. Thank you." It's a different thing when someone comes up and says, "This specific thing you said or this specific point you made really spoke to my soul." That is a different thing entirely. And so I think there's a lot of ways that we can think about what it means to give the sheep, give the people the portion of their food at the proper time.
[00:35:54] And yes, I do think that this text is narrowly speaking to those who have some sort of [00:36:00] vocational calling to minister to the congregation, to minister to the people of God. But we should recognize That all of us have that responsibility in a broader sense, and there are many different ways that that can be fulfilled.
[00:36:15] It's not just serving in the nursery or teaching Sunday school or picking up the chairs, like all of the concrete things we think of. In many ways, just coming to church and being faithful in exercising the variety- Yes ... of gifts that you have. Maybe it's the gift of kindness, right? The fruit- Right ... of the spirit.
[00:36:32] Just coming and being a kind, gentle, generous Christian is giving them their portion of food at the proper time.
[00:36:40] Jesse Schwamb: I totally am with you on that.
[00:36:41] Jesse Schwamb: I actually think this is not that complicated, at least like... And that's the blessing of the application here, which is you're right. The best thing that you can do for your local church is, one, to show up, two, to be engaged, three, to talk to people.
[00:36:54] I think if you're doing those things, what you're gonna find is opportunities suddenly open up both for like- [00:37:00] prayer, I would say almost like spontaneous prayer, but also just kind words- Yeah ... and encouragement to let somebody know they're, if they're going through something, or to speak words of scripture to each other in a non-constrained, non-staged way.
[00:37:10] Because if we love Jesus, then as we gather together to celebrate him and to feed on him week after week, then what we're gonna find is our conversation should strengthen one another. But we must be part of that conversation. So I think the simplest thing is just to actually do a little bit of life together.
[00:37:27] And even that, like, uh, I, I hate saying that because there's just too many cliches that are built around books or initialisms or programs, and here all that's being said is do you know who gets the blessing? It rests on ordinary continuing obedience. It's not on calculating the time of the return here.
[00:37:46] That's the exact opposite. The servant is simply found at his post, which is what exactly like what persevers- pers- perseverance, man, looks like in practice. So just like you're saying, Tony, like I take this rationing and the feeding. Like rationing never [00:38:00] ends. It can feel like a mundane circular task, because guess what?
[00:38:03] After you've eaten, you're gonna need to eat again. Somebody's gonna need you to feed them. And so in that way, what we need is people that will continue by the power of the Holy Spirit to just be a part of the life of one another. Just speak words of encouragement, just be present, just come forward and have conversation and treat one another as brothers and sisters.
[00:38:22] And if you're part of a church that does that, I would encourage you to lean into that and to, I would say, affirm that among your, your leaders. By the way, we are recording this in the lovely month of October, which is historically Pastor Appreciation Month, although every month should be Pastor Appreciation Month.
[00:38:38] But seeing as we want to single out a, a particular month to keep our minds really focused and thankful for our pastors, go make sure that you do that this month in some creative way, as we've said before. In fact, I would love to hear the most creative way people are thanking their pastors. That would be super fun for me to hear.
[00:38:54] Yeah. But what I'm struck by again is something that we've talked about over and over again. Guess what's showing up at [00:39:00] loved one's ordinary means? It's just do these- Yeah ... simple things in love for one another because Christ has loved you And that is stewardship. Because the minute we come to church just thinking, "I'm mostly consumer, I don't really feel like it today, I just wanna receive," is really I think the moment we're forsaking that task of stewardship.
[00:39:20] And in some ways, I think that's for me, like the bridge between what you're saying, Tony, the, the officer role, but I almost imagine Jesus saying, "And what about the rest of you? What about the rest of you?" You're still, like, I think haven't we token, talking about at this, on this podcast about kind of like our greater appreciation for what it means to be like the priesthood of believers?
[00:39:39] What is our responsibility? Yeah. And by, by nature of that, this applies as well, that we all have something to do in practice. Now talk about game, talk about practice. Like, we're actually in there doing this- ... over and over again. We're running the drills kind of, as it were. And guess what? You run those consistently so that there's a muscle memory of behavior, that even on those days when we [00:40:00] don't really feel like it, we find that we're still among the Lord's people because we need them.
[00:40:04] And of course, God saves us and reconciles us not just to himself, but also to one another. And to my mind, the only way that reconciliation shows itself to be real and proved over time is by this kind of perseverance in practice, which comes from ordinary continuing obedience.
[00:40:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:25] Tony Arsenal: And I think, um, you know, kinda tracking on to verse 44 here, this is the same, uh, basic teaching that we saw in, like, the parable of the talents or other similar kinds of parables, 'cause he says in verse 44, "I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions," right?
[00:40:45] So we have this picture of the wise, faithful manager or steward who is faithfully giving the portion of food at the proper time, right? He's doing his task. He's doing it well. He's doing it diligently. And his responsibility, and, and [00:41:00] I don't say this in, like, the sort of crass sense, but, like, his prestige in the household, the amount that his master trusts him with, the amount that his master, uh, favors him, right?
[00:41:11] His ultimate reward. If we wanna think in really, like, economic terms, which we should because that's the context of the parable, is, like, his wages. This guy's gonna get a raise because he does such a good job. He will set him over all his possessions. Like, this is intentionally calling back to think of, like, Joseph in, in Potiphar's household, right?
[00:41:31] There was nothing in Potiphar's household that was not under Joseph's control, or even in the prison. Right. There was nothing in the prison that the guard of the prison did not give him control over. There was nothing in all of Egypt that Joseph did not have control over because of the Lord's favor.
[00:41:46] But because of the Lord's favor in a, in a sort of, like, primary causation sense, but in a secondary causation sense because Joseph just did a good job. Like, he just was a hard worker. He was honest. [00:42:00] This is what this is calling to. If we are diligent in our calling, and I think, um, this is, of, of course, this is speaking about the church, but I also think there's just a general principle here.
[00:42:11] If we're diligent in our calling, whether that calling is a vocational ministry calling, whether it's what we might think of as a sec- a secular vocational calling, if we're diligent, God, who is the possessor of all things, right? All things belong to God. The budget at your corporate business that you work at, right?
[00:42:30] The bank you work at, Jesse, the hospital I work at, whatever your, your, you know, vocation might be in the secular world, all of the money and all of the bank accounts in all of those private businesses belongs to the Lord. Right. And so if, if you are diligent in your calling- then God will set you over more of those possessions.
[00:42:49] And I don't mean that in, like, the weird, uh, sort of like health and wealth s- Like, you may not get a promotion 'cause you're a Christian. But actually, I, I think it, it, it is [00:43:00] actually true in most instances that if you're honest and you're a hard worker and you're diligent, you're probably going to do better in your job and you're probably gonna advance.
[00:43:09] But this might be your family, right? If you're diligent in how you shepherd your children, God will set you over those possessions of His in, in more increasing ways. Maybe that's more children. Maybe that's more of your children's attention and your children's, uh, your children's lives. Um, I think that that's a real takeaway from here.
[00:43:31] Tony Arsenal: But then that, that sort of like necessarily takes us into sort of the scary part of the parable where it says in verse 45, he says, "If my... Uh, if the servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and he begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink, and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him.
[00:43:55] And in that hour he does not know, he will cut him to pieces and put him with the [00:44:00] unfaithful." This is such a, such a, um, stark warning specifically to, I think, uh, spiritually abusive and domineering elders and ministers, which is just l- being frank and honest, is, like, a real problem in the Reformed world, that there are many elders and ministers.
[00:44:22] Because the Reformed world has a v- has a robust understanding and appreciation of the authority of the office of elder There are many within our broader circles who abuse that authority, and this should serve as a super, super stark warning to those, uh, those in formal office. But just as the sort of promise of blessing and the calling of stewardship extends to the average everyday Christian in light of the office of elder, so also the warning to care for and not be [00:45:00] abusive and domineering to our fellow sheep, that also extends.
[00:45:04] And so we can't, we also can't, uh, exclude the warning from our general life the same way we can't exclude that promise and that blessing.
[00:45:12] Jesse Schwamb: And God uses those warnings as a means, right? That's the beauty of this, which is super fascinating, is that I don't think those warnings are contradicting the perseverance of the saints, but these warnings are a means that God uses to keep His elect watchful even as he perseveres through them.
[00:45:28] And so what I find is really helpful to consider here is that this fall, this master is delayed, section of verse 45, it begins in the heart before there's any outward act. So the delay- Yeah ... tests the servant, and he falls or fails in two ways. One, he abuses those underneath him, and then he indulges himself.
[00:45:50] Now, of course, like, in this way you get a very clear sense that there's a kind of more official role here. But who of us doesn't have spheres of influence? Who among us doesn't [00:46:00] have those whom we can exert some kind of authority over? And so again, it still stands that this is for all of us. So what's terrifying is, unlike other passages where we talked about the domain of the Christian is to be formed and disciplined by God in a way that is loving as a father would, to gently course correct as it were.
[00:46:17] But this language in verse 46, cut in pieces, placed with the unfaithful, this is the language of final judgment. That's not correction. Yeah. The servant's portion now is moved out into this unbelieving... It's like Matthew's parallel with this is, like, with the hypocrites. So it's, like, taken outside altogether, thrown outside the camp, and utterly destroyed.
[00:46:38] I mean, this is no place that anybody wants to be. So it is, like, an incredibly, incredibly strong and domineering tone here, and one that, again, strikes to, if you wanna trace this back, it's exactly what you said, Tony, which is, like, you, you wanna know who th- who the, the important or the honored servant is.
[00:46:56] It's the one who has faithfulness in little things. That is [00:47:00] even, like, one might say, like, in thoughts themselves. That is, can take everything captive under the command of God. That is, who does not entertain folly or nonsense or sin to a, to any degree, does not act on it. Faithfulness in a little leads to a greater trust.
[00:47:14] But the opposite is the one who falls, falls first in the heart. And before there's any manifestation of that initial contemplation in some kind of outward act, the trouble has already begun. The one who basically not just entertains the sin but begins to gravitate toward it, to really enjoy the entertaining of it.
[00:47:34] All of that takes place in verse forty five, and guess what? The result of that is a kind of final judgment
[00:47:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:47:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think, um, there are also subtle ways that we can abuse our fellow Christians, right? Just as we talk about how, or we've talked about how everyone in the pew has a responsibility to feed our brothers and sisters, and so there is this specific office of pastor, teacher that is responsible for formally teaching, right?
[00:48:10] I think that's narrowly what's in view. Um, just the same way narrowly what's in view is that office of pastor or teacher or apostle that is abusing the flock. We can abuse our fellow Christians by withholding our gifts, right? I think, I think that's one of those things that we don't think about, that, um, if God has called you to a particular body in his providence, right, and all of this of course is constrained by the sovereignty of God and is ordained by the sovereignty of God.
[00:48:39] But if you have a particular gift that your congregation is depending on and you refuse to exercise it, that is a way that you're withholding the f- you're withholding the, the nourishment from your fellow Christians. But I also think, too, like, small things like, um, I, I know that in my Christian life there's been brothers and [00:49:00] sisters in Christ in my own congregations that, if I'm being really honest, like, kind of annoy me.
[00:49:06] And, and it's easy enough to sort of, like, fall into the trap of, like, it's okay that they annoy me, I'm just gonna- Right, right ... sorta keep my distance. Um, or, or worse, like, maybe you actually become a bit of a gossip about them, or maybe you actually allow your frustration with them to come out on a Sunday morning or just in general.
[00:49:25] I think that's part of what Christ has in view here. Like, we have a b- obligation to bear with our fellow Christians, not just in good times where we're getting along, but also, like, that one saint in the Lord that just drives you crazy for whatever reason, you have an obligation to love and serve them, just as you have the obligation to love and serve that Christian that you really get along with, that you just click with.
[00:49:50] And I think we can, we can very easily discourage our brothers and sisters, uh, and, and in many cases, I, I don't know [00:50:00] why, uh, I, I'm, I'm trying not to be, like, super ooky, spooky charismatic on this but, like, for some reason I feel like I'm really tuned in to how this affects new Christians who are coming to your congregations.
[00:50:14] Maybe that's the Holy Spirit, maybe it's just because my church has had a lot of visitors lately, I don't know. But I think there are many times where the way that we respond to new visitors who don't understand, like, all of the protocols of our church, right? Like, the classic example is, like- That new Christian or that visitor to your church that, like, sits in your spot, and you, you either have the option to just, like, sit in a different spot, which most churches don't have assigned seating, or, like, you can be like, "Hey, this is where we sit Right?
[00:50:44] I think we have an obligation to bear with other Christians through our annoyances and through our frustrations with them, and if we fail to do so, it seems to me that that may be equivalent to what Christ is talking about in a sense here of what [00:51:00] it means to beat the male and female servants, right?
[00:51:03] There are going to be Christians in your life, either new Christians or new, kinda new-to-you Christians, that just don't get it yet. They don't understand yet. Um, I know that there are many churches that, uh, that have people come to their church that either are still in, uh, an LGBTQ lifestyle and are being convicted by the Holy Spirit potentially to come and understand what this Christianity thing is about.
[00:51:30] That is an opportunity for us to show grace and love to people who really need it, um, as much if not more than many others. Or we can get upset because they don't wear the same clothes that we think they should or because they still use pronouns, uh, differently than we believe they should, right? We can still be kind and gracious and share the love of Christ and not beat on people.
[00:51:54] Um, if, if we're not careful, I think we can fall into this trap of beating on the male and [00:52:00] female servants without realizing it, uh, and sort of like taking advantage of them by way of not being gracious and self-sacrificial. That I think is in, in large part what this parable is warning against. Like, we have an obligation to love and to serve those around us, especially those who are among the household of faith, but really all people, and we can really fall into this dangerous trap, uh, and become sort of like part of the unfaithful if we're not careful and if we're not diligent to exercise those gifts to God's glory and to the benefit of our neighbors.
[00:52:35] Jesse Schwamb: It is interesting that Jesus moves in that exact direction and links up then in verse 47 with this idea of judgment being proportionate to knowledge, which I think most of us would bristle when we heard something like that. But there's something here represented, especially in just the summary you gave, that the servant who knew his master's will and ignored it is beaten severely, and the one who did not [00:53:00] know is beaten lightly.
[00:53:01] I mean, I think there's maybe two things we should consider there in light of what you just said. Ignorance lessens guilt but doesn't remove it. A- and we can go, of course, right into Romans 1, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness because that which is known about God is evident within them, for God made it evident to them."
[00:53:23] So there's no excuse here with saying like, "Well, God graves, uh, grades on a curve." I don't think there's anything here that would lead us to that conclusion. But there is also something about just in life we understand that sins differ in gravity. That's not even like a weird, like the, like, you know, extra-biblical concept.
[00:53:40] That reflects, I think, like the distinction between unintentional and high-handed sin. Like, that's from like Numbers 15, which, you know, our sensible people can go take a look at that. Or I was just looking at this earlier today, even the Westminster Larger Catechism in questions 100 and 150 lists like knowledge and office among the aggravations of sin.
[00:53:58] So there is something- Yeah ... here [00:54:00] for us to consider. I, I think I'm drawing kind of on what you said, Tony, 'cause as you were speaking, that really made me think about the fact that there is something when we, when we know better too. So not just like when we... And maybe this is all related actually, is we're saying like there's basically like sins of omission and commission here that kind of get commingled together, so it might be helpful to tease them apart a little bit.
[00:54:20] But if we're saying that as mature Christians, we know that we ought to be part and parcel of the community of faith, that we ought to be actively practicing and participating in that, stewarding our gifts, and we fail to do that, what impact does that have on all the people of faith? Now, we can talk about there might be seasons where that's gonna look different in your life, depending on wherewithal and physical ability and all those things.
[00:54:40] Notwithstanding all of that, which could be important, I think the root of it is, is our hearts, though, so desperately wanting to steward those gifts that- No matter what season of life we're in, we're finding that way to do that very thing. That again, we put it into practice, and our practice becomes perfect, so to speak, in its [00:55:00] obedience to continue to move forward despite obstacles that we might ourselves encounter.
[00:55:05] So here, I think there is just more of a lesson and more of a warning for us, and again, that these are very serious things that we ought to consider. I think it's hard because I'm with you.
[00:55:16] Jesse Schwamb: I just think, uh, maybe I'll only speak for myself. Historically, I've re- I've really tended to under-emphasize this point.
[00:55:22] Generally, I might look at the things that I would like to part- do, be doing in the church and attach them to specific time slots, programs, schedules, quote-unquote ministries. But what about, like, we might argue, like, the ministry of small talk, and that could be, like, among-
[00:55:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...
[00:55:40] Jesse Schwamb: among any group of people.
[00:55:41] I was, uh, reminded today of just how important, like, greeting is, of course. It's always nice to have somebody greet you and say something word to you and speak a kind word to you before you even get in. And I know that today our greeters take this so seriously. There was a greeter lunch in which, uh, I think, [00:56:00] like, once a quarter or semi-annually they get together in our fellowship hall, lunch is served to them.
[00:56:05] They talk about their ministry, and I think some would find this, like, really mundane and unnecessary. They talk about their ministry, and they encourage one another, and they try to find ways to do the greeting better. And I was making this joke with somebody saying, like, "What do you think, like, the table talk is like?
[00:56:19] Is it just them greeting each other over and over again?" Like, "Ah, good morning. How are you?" "Ah, it's raining out today." Like, but you know, there's such a ministry in small talk. And so, like, these little things- Yeah ... talk about being faithful in what is small so that God might equip us to be faithful in larger things.
[00:56:36] To forsake these things is a real problem. And I think there, there's some of that a little bit in verse 47 and 48. Like, God forbid that we would understand, be processing things, understanding the importance of what it means to steward these things, and then in some way to say, "Well, that's really interesting, but there's a lot going on right now, and so, ah, I just can't do it."
[00:56:54] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[00:56:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, and maybe just as a real concrete example, right? So we, um, when, uh, when your dad's church, uh, shut down, uh, which happened in June of 2024, um, we, w- you know, we started checking out other churches, and we started visiting other churches more or less right away. And, um, I love my son dearly, but he's a very busy kid, and at that point in his life, he didn't have a ton of experience, um, either even being in a nursery or, or even being in the church service.
[00:57:33] And I will say, like, I was nervous about what it meant to go to a church with a kid who's very busy and noisy that is hard to keep quiet during a service. And one of the things that really impressed me about the church that we ended up staying at is almost immediately another family with young children approached us when we came to the service and said, "It is okay that your kid makes noise," [00:58:00] right?
[00:58:00] That person, uh, doesn't have... Uh, and I know the person now. We're good friends with them. It's not like the church has delegated them that task of like, "You're in charge of greeting children," you know, families with new children, and making sure they understand that, like, we're fine with a little bit of noise during the service.
[00:58:17] They simply recognized that it was a need. They recognized that, like, coming into a church with small children is a challenge, and that there's always this low-level anxiety For young families with young kids of, like, "How am I gonna keep my kids quiet?" And it's not as simple for most families as like, "I'm just gonna send them to the nursery."
[00:58:40] Like, sending a toddler to nursery with a bunch of people they've never met, one, parents may not feel comfortable with that, and there's good reasons why they may not feel comfortable with that. But also, children are not going to just feel great about going to nursery with a bunch of adults they've never met.
[00:58:55] So that's one simple way that I think in my life, [00:59:00] that person coming to me and coming to our family and saying, "I see you've got great- young children." W- First, we've got great programs for young children. We've got great Sunday school. We've got lot- we've got nursery that has background checks. We've got all of the safety features in, in place.
[00:59:17] But also, as a family that's been here for less than one week, if you don't feel comfortable sending your kid to nursery, and you're having trouble keeping them quiet during the service, that's okay. Like, that's a good example of what we can do. Right. Another example might be, like, I think, um, we... Our particular context in, uh, where we are in u- in the Upper Valley here in relation to, like, Dartmouth College and Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center, we have a lot of sort of, like, transient people, traveling nurses, people who are here for a couple years for school.
[00:59:49] A lot of singles come to our church, but our church doesn't have a lot of single people. And I think, like, people are intentional to seek out and greet those [01:00:00] people that are here as a lot of, like, young female nurses that are coming to the congregation. There are women that will just go and strike up a conversation with them and make it clear that, like, although our church is predominantly populated with families with young children, it's totally fine that you're just a single post-college nurse who's here for a couple months because you've got a contract at Dartmouth Hitchcock.
[01:00:25] I think those kinds of things, like, you talk about, like, the ministry of small talk. Right. This is an extension of that. It's not as though we should never go to a church where, like, we feel socially a little out of place. There are gonna be times, I think, for many of us, where we are socially out of place.
[01:00:42] We don't fit in, and that's okay. But I think having someone in the congregation come to you and say, "Look, our unity in Christ is far greater, infinitely greater than whatever disunity might be created by the fact that our social situation is at odds with each other, [01:01:00] or that you don't fit in or that I don't fit in," that is a real robust way that we feed each other.
[01:01:05] So I think for the person who's looking at this parable- Who wants to understand, like, how do I actually put this into practice? I think it's as simple as understanding, like, people in your congregation sometimes need to know, like, their situation is okay, that God has ordained a family in the church that transcends, uh, social context.
[01:01:31] It transcends biological or racial context, right? We've said before, like, although I affirm the ordo amoris, like the idea that, like, we should care for those closest to us in, in our families, in our communities, I have more in common with the Christian in, you know, Papua New Guinea than I do with the person, the non-Christian who lives across the street from me, right?
[01:01:56] That doesn't mean there's not something to say about the fact that I should be [01:02:00] investing my time and my talents and my treasure in those most proximate to me. But in terms of true spiritual unity, that believer in Papua New Guinea or in Sub-Saharan Africa or communist China or wherever it might be that's not the Western world That believer who follows Christ and loves the Lord Jesus Christ and is indwelled by the Spirit, I have infinitely more in common with them than I do with any person on the planet who is not indwelled by the Spirit, who is not Christ.
[01:02:31] And that's a real thing, and I think sometimes we miss, in our local context, the fact that just asserting that and living it out is a ministry, and I think potentially something that is in view here in this passage.
[01:02:46] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I agree with you.
[01:02:47] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, I mean, I think the best thing we can do in wrapping this all up is to remember that if you read this alone, the parable could produce only fear.
[01:02:57] But the great reminder for us is not only does this [01:03:00] challenge us, does God use the warnings here as a means to preserve us, but Christ himself is the faithful one over God's house, and he bore the stripes that the unfaithful servant deserves. And so believers, because of that, we watch and we serve out of gratitude to a master who remarkably promises to gird himself up and to serve us.
[01:03:22] And this is the gospel, loved ones. It's the incredible truth that keeps getting more incredible the more we look at it, and everywhere in these parables we see Jesus doing this very thing, being the one who is faithful over God's household, and extends, not only just extends, I suppose, that faithfulness to us, but credits it to our account so that in Christ, as we are hidden within him, we find that we rec- we receive the same blessings and benefits that he earned, uh, for us.
[01:03:51] So there's a lot to be encouraged with here, and we'll keep talking about that on every episode, but I think that's a, a fine way for us to draw [01:04:00] so much conclusion to all the things we've talked about here. Lots of great challenges, I think. I've gone away with some things that I really want to ponder and come back to and think about in light of my own church.
[01:04:10] And also, again, what a blessing at the end of the day to know that what we have here is not law for us to try to be crushed under again. It's not performance. It's certainly not something that we have to meritoriously earn. But that in this example we find Christ himself, and of course, that does really make me stoked and wanna compel me to love him all the better and to love his people all the more in ways that are insanely and intensely practical
[01:04:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.
[01:04:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and you know, I, I also think too there is this element, and I wanna be honest, just like we talked about, um, and maybe I'll wrap this up this way, but just as we talked about when we looked at the idea of, like, receiving greater rewards, we've talked about how, like, there is a robust tradition in our, our Reformed [01:05:00] circles of understanding that there are g- varying degrees of rewards.
[01:05:04] And, and me, m- I'll just speak for myself, like, me being honest, I don't fully understand what that even looks like, what that could even mean. Like, I don't, I don't know what more you get in heaven besides Christ himself. Um, there is this element here that there's a seve- more severe punishment for those who are sinning against God in a high-handed fashion who know what's expected of them- Right
[01:05:28] and refuse to do it. Right. Um, I, I don't know what that looks like. I don't know, I don't ... Like, I don't know ... I, I don't mean to use, like, a crass, uh, a crass statement here, but, like, I don't know which part of hell is hotter. Uh, I don't understand what that means. Like, it's all separation from God. It's not as though someone who is, uh, is separated from God is somehow less separated from God.
[01:05:52] But the parable is using the, this teaching is using the idea of a more severe beating [01:06:00] or a more severe punishment as a way not to, um I think it is a way to scare or to drive fear in those who are disobedient to Christ. But more so than that, it is a, it is a teaching technique to drive obedience for those who are in Christ, right?
[01:06:20] It's a warning. Um, it's kind of like if there's a big warning sign, I take... This is from Alistair Begg. I don- I mean, I don't remember specifically when I heard it from him. He, he was talking about the apostasy passages in a different context, but I think it applies here, right? The, the sign at the edge of a cliff that says, "Warning, cliff," that sign is not actually physically presenting you from go- preventing you from jumping over the cliff.
[01:06:45] Right. But it is warning those who don't desire to fall off the cliff. Exactly. It's, it's the means by which the person who does not desire to fall off the cliff actually does not do it, even though they had no desire to do so in the first place. This warning serves a similar [01:07:00] kind of situation. For those who are in Christ who have no desire to have a severe beating, have no desire to be cut into pieces and placed with the unfaithful, this warning is a way that those of us who desire to serve Christ are actually driven to serve Christ and our brothers and sisters in light of that more.
[01:07:19] So I think that's what we should take away from this, is that although, yes, there's a warning to those who are unfaithful, it serves far more of an encouragement to those who are in Christ and who are faithful to walk out that calling and to live in a manner that's worthy of the calling of Jesus Christ.
[01:07:35] So I think that's where I would leave us, is if you read this passage and you immediately think, "How can I serve my brothers and sisters better? How can I serve God by m- submitting myself and sacrificing for the good of my, my brothers and sisters?" You're in exactly the right place, and I think that's really what this is getting at.
[01:07:57] And we know this [01:08:00] Because the answer to Peter's question, although not direct, I think the answer to Peter's question is, "This parable is for you, Peter," and by extension the apostles, right? It's for those whom God has set as faithful and wise stewards over the house of God to provide provision for those who are in the household of God.
[01:08:22] I.e., that is to say, it is for the believer that this parable is, is told. And so we should see it as encouragement, not as a threat, because those of us who are in Christ will necessarily walk out this command and this parable in obedience to Jesus Christ. So be encouraged. If you're reading this and you're a little bit fearful and that drives you to greater service, that's exactly what this parable is for.
[01:08:49] Jesse Schwamb: Right on.
[01:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: I love that, and a perfect way, I think, for us to go back out into the world and to do just that. So Lord willing, we'll be back. There's still some more parables hanging out there, Tony, that we haven't yet, we haven't yet- Yeah ... caught them all or collected them all or stacked them all up. I don't know exactly how many are left, and I don't know how long we've been doing this, but we're just gonna keep going until we got them all.
[01:09:13] Tony Arsenal: We are. We are. Straight up Pokemon style. So Jesse- ... I love this series. Um, i- we will eventually come to an end, and you're right, we don't really know exactly when that's gonna be, uh, partially because we never know how many episodes a given parable's gonna take, but also- Right ... it seems like, uh, I don't know if you've experienced this, it seems like we're discovering new parables as we go.
[01:09:37] Yes. Like, we, we look at it, we're like, "Well, this is the, this is the parable," and then we find out like we did today, like, well, Jesus actually explained this parable with another parable. Uh, but it's all the word of God, and it's such a joy to work through it. So I'm definitely not complaining. I'm excited to keep going, and I look forward to whatever the Holy Spirit has for us in future episodes.
[01:09:56] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. So until you hear those episodes next, do this: [01:10:00] honor everyone-
[01:10:01] Tony Arsenal: Love that brotherhood