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Tony and Jesse wrap up Micah Cast with the Gospel.

Jesse Schwamb 0:10
Welcome to Episode 176 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast of brotherly love.

Hey, brother.

Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey, brother, how are you? I'm

Tony Arsenal 0:33
doing well. How are you?

Jesse Schwamb 0:36
I'm doing great. Hopefully people realize that when they listen to our podcast, and we do this, like little salutation back and forth, that this sometimes is more or less like the first time we've actually spoken voice to voice during the week. So it's actually like a real greeting. It's not like we just don't know how to start the podcast.

Tony Arsenal 0:54
Yeah, I mean, we don't know how to start the podcast, but there's also it also is a real greeting As well,

Jesse Schwamb 1:01
that's fair. So unless maybe we should talk about this really quick before we go headlong into affirmations and denials. If you've never like tried to record yourself having a conversation with somebody, you might not realize that any kind of normal greeting you would normally have in just a casual conversation seems so staged and cliche when there's a microphone in front of you.

Tony Arsenal 1:24
It does, it does, there's really no good way. That's why a lot of shows I think, have like a staged opening greeting of some sort, right? Because it's, it's actually easier than trying to organically greet each other at the beginning of the show. So we'd have some way to open the show up, but we don't. So

Jesse Schwamb 1:44
yeah, we just this is the best we've got. So

Tony Arsenal 1:47
it is better. It's better than like episode one through 30 where we just started, we just started talking to each other.

Jesse Schwamb 1:56
Oh, I hardly want to think about that. So Well in the spirit of moving things along in a direction that is more focused and formal, let's do a little affirmations, denials. Would you mind starting with an affirmation?

Tony Arsenal 2:10
What if I said I would mind and I was like, No, I'll be happy to start. So just

Jesse Schwamb 2:15
be awkward.

Tony Arsenal 2:16
I have basically like three or four different kinds of affirmations that I do. There's like the theological affirmation. There's like practical piety affirmation, yes, there's usually some sort of like social commentary affirmation, and there's, like, like, new app that I found affirmation. And this is the new app that I found affirmation this week. So, you know, I'm a note taker, although I don't ever really look at my notes. But I find that the act of taking notes helps me to remember things better. And one of the things that I would like to do is to begin creating like a catalog of notes that are readily accessible and easily indexed. And you know, like there's no taking apps like like Evernote or OneNote or even Google Keep in a certain way, but they don't have a really stellar indexing system. You know, you can add tags, you can do folders. But a lot of that is really, really manual. So I've always been looking for something that's a little bit more organic than that. And so I found an app today. Before church, I kind of was looking through the app store looking for note taking apps. And it's a note taking app called bear. It's only available on Mac OS or on iOS devices, so your iPhone or iPad. But what's really interesting about this, and I think what I like the most This is what drew me to it, is you can use hashtags, and it automatically creates an index for you. So for example, the title of my note from Sunday school today is hashtag New Hope Community Church slash adult class slash the gifts of the Holy Spirit, right, which is a really long hashtag, but the functionality of that is it creates a parent category for new hope Community Church. Would you then drill down and it'll have a subcategory of adult class and then a subcategory for the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So next week when I do the sermon, and I do hashtag new community or new hope Community Church slash sermons, I probably won't do a slash, it'll have another subcategory that drills down for sermons. So as you enter and add hashtags into your notes, it creates this category, this automatic categorization schema that you can then rename you can drill into you can search so it's it's designed basically for you to as you're doing your notes, to be able to identify and add keywords, and then it automatically creates the the taxonomy or the hierarchy for you based on how you format and insert those hashtags. So I find it really slick. What I'm doing is I'm actually doing a hashtag book of the Bible slash chapter. So that way, as I As I do notes, whether it's sermon notes, or if I'm preparing for an episode, which we don't really do, but at once while we do, or if I'm taking notes for class, and I put in a book of the Bible slash the chapter, it's going to automatically create this hierarchy. So I can tell you that if I went to hashtag, First Peter four slash four, it's gonna eventually pull up every sermon, everything that I've ever referenced, that I cited, First Peter four in the note, so it's called bear. It's available for iPad, iPhone. And then also if you have a Mac, it's available for computer. It's just really slick. I just find it really useful.

Jesse Schwamb 5:40
That's pretty legit. I mean, people who have listened to our voices for a long period of time know that we are among other things, super nerds for note taking, whether that be a physical form or the electronic form, and I have not heard about this before, but what immediately appeals to me is is not like the hardest point of Electronic note taking being able to go back and like find that specific notes that you're looking for. For me, that's always the challenge and even right, I use Evernote, but even there, you have to work very diligently to create the taxonomy yourself. So if you're saying, basically that by just creating the hash tag, it does it all for you. Yeah. And it catalogues everything in a way that's going to be easily retrievable in the future. I could get down with that.

Tony Arsenal 6:22
Yeah, it's like it's a free app. There are some pro features, if you want to sync across devices, if you want to export, they have all sorts of different kinds of export. So you can do some exporting in the free version, but you have a wider range of document types in the pro version. And like I said, it's just really, really simple. And it's really slick. And it automatically creates that hierarchy for you, which is the biggest selling point. It uses kind of standard markdown features in terms of formatting. So it's got all your basic kinds of formatting, bold bullet points, that kind of stuff. But the main feature that really caught my attention is this story. I wouldn't call it like automatic hierarchy because you still have to intentionally create some of the tags. But then once you've created a tag, when you hit hash tag and start typing, it's going to prompt you for that tag. And then you can combine this, you know, I have a, there's another thing I use for for blogging once in a while, I can put the link in the show notes, but it's, it's called perm ID. And you can basically enter in like a document and will automatically scan the document and pull up keywords. And it does a pretty good job because I were doing as you might have guessed from the hashtag, we're in the middle of a series in Sunday School on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So I copy and paste in my notes into this perm ID Auto tager. And it actually pulled up as one of the categories new ontology, so it actually is a pretty wide range. So you could take your notes, you can copy it into this, it would generate a list of social tags and other features and then you could then go back and put those in as your hashtags that would help you with categorization. So it's just a really sweet program.

Jesse Schwamb 8:00
Totally dig app affirmations, by the way. Yes, I think those are fantastic. Keep those coming.

Tony Arsenal 8:05
What do you got for me today?

Jesse Schwamb 8:07
It's really funny that you mentioned this whole idea of kind of being self aware with respect to affirmations. I was just thinking about this this week. And and that's partly because the affirmation that I have is one that's a little bit off the beaten path, because oftentimes will say the affirmation and the whole point of it is to recommend or suggest something that you can go out and do or have access to or on your own volition can participate in. And this affirmation decidedly not that type of thing. And so what I'm affirming this week is wedding proposals and just how amazing it is to be part of one or to see what happened in real time. And I recognize that it's not like if you wanted to take us up on this, like, you could just go and find a wedding proposal and really enjoy it and rejoice in it. But a winning proposal is an amazing thing. Like no matter what kind of the the space or the conviction of the worldview of the people involved. We recognize that marriage itself is something ordained, instituted and promoted by God Himself. And so there's something to me that's all together worthy of rejoicing in no matter when people basically come to the commitment of being taking on a proposal and then saying if they're willing to marry one another and be committed to one another. And so I say this because so last night, I was with my wife, and she actually was the one that encouraged me to be part of this event. It was, this again, sounds so crazy to a lot of people, but it was a preview for a five k foot race. So in other words, there was a bunch of people getting together to run the course for the race that was supposed to is going to happen in a couple of weeks. And this is a whole event and afterwards, we're actually gathered at this beer and a craft brewery and spirits shop. And there are lots of runners there. There was a guy playing live music and the person who was in charge, who was overseeing this whole race, he said Listen, we have this hat here, everybody write their names in the hat. And I'm going to pull out a name. And the person whose name I pull out will get a medal for the race and we're going to that person will be able to reveal to everybody to see what the medal is going to look like for this finishers medal for the race. And so this is amazing, apparently set up where the gentleman called the name of this guy, he came up and then he gave the metal to his girlfriend, he actually kind of like knighted her like put it over her head and gave it to her. And then he got down on one knee and proposed to her. And the bottom line is proposals when you get to witness them and see the joy see the commitment, see people committing themselves to one another is just an amazing thing. And it always points me to how loving God is toward us with respect to his bride, the church and his own proposal and his promise to save us. And to see that reflected in this like small shadow, like really the slight shadow of two people committing themselves to one another is I think No matter what a beautiful thing, so if you get the opportunity to be a part of a proposal, I feel like you should just go like all out and celebrate with those people, even if you don't even know them to like, be in the same space, the same geographic environment. And to see it happen is just a remarkable thing. So if it happens to you, I guess I'm just kind of saying I firm cherishing that very thing. Have you ever obviously you've had your own proposal?

Tony Arsenal 11:25
Yes, I have had my own.

Jesse Schwamb 11:28
Yeah. So. So you were there for that one? Have you seen or been a part of like a proposal? That wasn't yours? Um,

Tony Arsenal 11:36
I don't think so. I don't believe that I have, although, I mean, I'm sure that I've been at like restaurants where people like where that was happening somewhere in the restaurant. So I've been to like nice restaurants and that's pretty common at those places, but I don't I don't think I can remember a specific one. I will tell a little bit of funny story though. So you're your little sister. pretty early on when we were dating, not not too early on, you know, we knew that we were pretty serious and which direction we were going. And she said to me, You know, I want a public proposal. And I was like a public proposal. She's like, yeah, public proposal, and I was like, that's kind of intimidating. So yeah, the video is out there. If people want to go watch it, they can. But what's funny is on the video, right, I coordinated this whole thing. And it was pretty clear. I think it was clear where it was going long before I actually got down on one knee to propose, but it's funny because when I get down on one knee, you can actually hear an audible gasp from multiple people in the crowd, because we had the whole thing videotaped. And there's something about the act of a man getting down on one knee to propose to a woman even when you see it coming, that really kind of takes your breath away because it is such a it's such a symbol and such a it represents something so ingrained in human nature that even the most hardened secularists still, there's still something that they they latch on to. It's why shows like, shows like The Bachelor, which in many ways kind of like issue, any sort of like traditional notions of, you know, monogamy or commitment or solidarity until you get to the very end. And it's still a man getting down on one knee and proposing to a woman. And that's this big fanfare around it. So there is really I think, I think you're latching onto something here. There's something within the human condition that just latches on to that imagery, and that common grace commitment that's being made. That really does point to who I think to who God is.

Jesse Schwamb 13:43
Yeah, there definitely is there's even if you know, the people who are involved and you know that the answer to the question Will you marry me is going to be yes. There's something about that act, that posture where there is humility, there is yielding, there's the uncertainty. And there's all So like this idea that in that single moment, they're committing themselves to some kind of expression of love that's even transcended outside and beyond themselves. Yeah. And it was, in my case, I didn't know it was going to happen. And yeah, there was just something super exciting about it. And to see it in real time, it was just amazing. And so it was it. Again, amongst like a bunch of runners who were hanging out in a pub afterwards. It was just like that. I think for those two people, they were both runners and amazing expression of who they were. My proposal to my wife, also public, and so I definitely hear your heart on all of the craziness. My wife also wanted a public proposal. And I actually did it at church. So like it just amazing. Yeah, it just made me so happy. I don't know. And it made me happy in a way that was like spiritual fulfilling, if that makes sense. Yeah, yes. This is how we know one of the ways in which God has kind of given us again, this representation of the shadow of how much he loves us is that we might be able to express and Rizal small way to humanly creatures that we also care about that there is this same type of commitment and promise. And so for all that we can say about how marriage has been denigrated. And that certainly is true. I'm not taking that away, to be able just to participate in the purity of a moment of expression of love. And that love comes from the father because he loved us first. I found myself surprisingly overwhelmed by two people that I actually barely knew very well. But was I was just so filled with a joy at what was happening, that I was like, man, in some ways this is, is it is like eschatological. It is spiritual. It is beautiful. And so I don't know, I guess is also like the affirmation if you can get married, and God has given you that person go and do that. Maybe there's some person right now. It's like, should I propose? shine I propose Should I propose in public? The answer is mostly an always unless your fiance says otherwise. Yes.

Tony Arsenal 15:55
Yeah. Yeah, I will say this. If you're not 100% Ensure that the answer is going to be yes. Then don't don't. Don't propose, because there's probably no coming back from that. But especially don't propose publicly because there is no coming back from that. There are some really likes cringy videos on YouTube, of people making very public proposals, like these big grand gestures that led me to know, man, I don't know how you I don't know how you move forward from that, to be honest with you.

Jesse Schwamb 16:28
Now, there's no coming back. That is also good advice. Make sure you know.

Unknown Speaker 16:33
Yeah,

Jesse Schwamb 16:33
yeah. Alright, so let's, let's kick it over to denials real quick, what do you got?

Tony Arsenal 16:37
So, I'm going to deny something that I again, I'm not a libertarian in the classic sense of the word. Although as I get older, and as I have more understanding of how the way the world works, the more and more I just want the government to stay out of my business, right. So we recently in the state of New Hampshire and you're familiar with this, but most people probably are not. In the state of New Hampshire, like all of your licensing stuff comes up on your birthday. And it's like, it's like the state of New Hampshire wants to say happy birthday, give us all your money. So, you know, there, it's nice. In New Hampshire, we don't pay. We don't pay sales tax for the most part. Most of the taxes are coming out of property, and then also a few other things. But one of the things they do license is your vehicle, they license your car. Yeah, not your driver's license, but your actual vehicle itself. And it was almost $1,000 for us to license our two cars this year. And you know, it's like, and then also, I had to go renew my I had to go renew my driver's license. And I mentioned previously that like, when I went to the to the DMV to do this, I watched probably a dozen or more people stand in line and then not have the proper documentation, because they make it so overly complicated and burdensome to prove who you are to get these licensing. And then to sort of like top it all off to put the put the cherry on top of this smack you in the face Sunday that the State of New Hampshire, we also got a notification from the town that we have to license our dog. And so it's like, okay, the State of New Hampshire gets to tell me what kind of vehicle I can drive, I have to pay them for the privilege of owning a vehicle, I have to pay them for the privilege of having an identity card to prove who I am, which I'm required by law to have to do certain things. They're going to charge me to do all sorts of other stuff. And then on top of that, I have to get the state of New Hampshire is blessing and pay them a fee, or this to the state I suppose this the city of Canaan to have a dog. And we had in times past we neglected to register our dog properly. And we actually got a notice in the mail from the city of New Hampshire that are the city of Canaan, New Hampshire. They were going to come and take our dog if we did not license it. And and it's funny because actually, my wife, your sister said the other day that when she got that notice, she was like, this is how I die. And we're going to go down in a blaze of glory when they come to try to take my dog. So, what I'm denying against is the state's feeling that they, they, we owe it to them, for them to give us permission to do just about anything. That's what licensing is, is the state giving you permission to do something and we have to have a license to drive we have a license to own a vehicle to have a dog to to do this, do that. The other thing, it's just lame, like Stay out of my business. This is the live free and die state and I just want you to leave me alone. Just leave me alone. Exactly. But But you have to license your lawn like you have to mow your lawn. You have to have certain requirements there. It's like get off my lawn. Just

Jesse Schwamb 19:55
everything is rented, right?

Tony Arsenal 19:58
Yeah. When I first moved here, if Want a trippy experience listeners of the farm brotherhood? Look up? Oh, great. Look up the New Hampshire free staters. There there is this movement in the United States called the Free State movement. And what it was is it was a group of people that basically took what I'm saying about basically telling the government to stay out of my business and they cranked it up to like 11. And they actually researched which state in the Union they would be able to kind of be free form and then actually take over the state government and then like, basically abolish the state government. And so there's like this group of people in New Hampshire that called themselves the free staters who basically want to live in a government absent any sort of state, which I don't actually think is possible. And I don't think that it's biblical, to be honest, but I'm starting to understand their perspective a little more.

Jesse Schwamb 20:53
Great. People should actually look that up because New Hampshire is basically like a foreign country within The United States and I say that not necessarily as a person that's from there, but because it is a really strange so there is no sales tax. So if you eliminate different types of taxation, of course from a state that all that means is that they just have to find a place to get the revenue a different way. And so when I moved out of Pennsylvania or out of Pennsylvania, when I moved out of New Hampshire to Pennsylvania, I was shocked about the vehicle registration thing because I was always so used, like you just said to an experience that most people haven't had which is you show up at your township office with your registration paperwork, and they're say something to you like, okay, so you have to write two checks today to register your vehicle. The one to the state is like $36. And the one to the town is 984. Like, how is that even possible? What are you guys doing with that? And it's on a sliding scale, depending on like the age of your vehicle, the make model, all that stuff. So it does tend to go down over time as the vehicle ages. But when I moved to Pennsylvania, and they were I got the thing in the mail. It was like, here's your Registration $24 like I literally danced into the Department of Motor Vehicles and like he'll clicked my way out because I was like, This is so incredible. And of course, like we have different taxes here. So in the end, more or less it washes. But that is a remarkable thing. Because if that's something I would say is totally unique to New Hampshire is basically the fee structure for the vehicle registration. And it is absolutely crazy, isn't it? Like when you go into the town, and they're like, yeah, just give us $1,000. Real quick for your vehicle registration this year.

Tony Arsenal 22:29
Yeah. And I actually just remembered that I'm probably going to have to get my vehicles inspected to I don't remember if it's every year if it's every other year. So not only every year, it's every year, so I'm gonna have to take like a day off work next week to go get the stupid vehicles inspected. Because they don't have like a standardized way of doing this. There's no like state office, where you bring it all in one shot to get your vehicle inspected and registered. So you have to find some mechanic who's not a crook. To save your vehicle is safe to drive on the road. And then on top of that, you have to pay the state it's it's a racket all around, it's like just Just let me drive my car if it's not safe and again in the car accident and die that's on me. Like just Just leave me alone, stay off my lane. Just go away, just leave me alone.

Jesse Schwamb 23:20
This is so great. I love because I just know this pain so intimately. I will say, you know what the one thing is that always people find very surprising about New Hampshire, New Hampshire, I believe is one of two states. I think it's just too now that if there's no lien on the vehicle, you don't actually have to have auto insurance. So that always surprises people. Because of course, if you just have an accident with somebody who didn't have auto insurance, then your only recourse is to actually sue them, because they're not required in this state as long as there's no lien to actually have auto insurance. Now, of course, like in any state, if you want to break the law, you can forego auto insurance but in the state of New Hampshire, it's actually a possible, you know, opportunity for you to not have it and you would still be underneath the law and still being a law abiding citizen that I found it was always interesting. I feel like that is the Live Free or Die right there. It's kind of like, yeah, let me do what I want. If I don't want to have insurance and I own the vehicle, you know, I do what I want.

Tony Arsenal 24:17
So, in New Hampshire, you don't even have to have liability insurance.

Jesse Schwamb 24:21
No, not if you own the vehicle outright. It The only reason you'd have to have it is if there's a lien on it.

Tony Arsenal 24:28
Well, but if you have a lien, you have to have comprehensive though.

Jesse Schwamb 24:31
Yes, correct. But you don't have to have any insurance whatsoever if you own the vehicle in its entirety.

Tony Arsenal 24:37
That's insanity. I mean, I guess it's exactly what I'm saying is to stay off my lawn. But see, see, enforcing liability insurance actually seems like the one thing that makes sense to me that most states do, because basically what it basically what it says but most states say is, you don't have to protect your property in order You drive a car, but you have demonstrate that you've got some sort of coverage in case you destroy someone else's property. So that actually makes sense to me because they're trying to protect the property of people within the state, like comprehensive insurance. Like that's just protecting your own property and other people's. But yeah, I that's crazy. I did not know this in

Jesse Schwamb 25:21
the car thing just doesn't make any sense. Like I've long thought for a quite some period of time that, don't you find it interesting, like in the US, at least, and this might be. I mean, this happens in lots of other countries. But I think it's particularly prevalent in the US, like our entire identity system, like the way that you prove your identity your age, is with your license, which is a permission to drive a motor vehicle, like everything is connected to the ability to operate a motor vehicle.

Tony Arsenal 25:49
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you can get a non drivers identification card too, though, so it's not all tied to a vehicle.

Jesse Schwamb 25:57
But who issues that the DMV still

Tony Arsenal 26:00
Right. Yeah, well, that that was the thing. So you know, it was like, you'd go there, you're like, all right, we need you to bring your birth certificate, but it can't be the one you got from the hospital has to be one that the state issued. Also your passport, and a previous driver's license if it's not expired, but if it's expired, we need you to bring seven chickens to sacrifice. And also you need to learn how to do a handstand. And also give the person at the checkout counter a backrub. And then maybe, maybe we'll think about giving you this little plastic card that says who you are.

Jesse Schwamb 26:36
Yeah, that sounds about right there. So here's the last thing I'll say about this is maybe everybody in the US is familiar with this enactment called the REAL ID, which was really just a way to make sure that all the driver's licenses were issued in such a way that they had verified like you're saying basically that you are who you say you are by looking at your birth certificate, your social security number, that kind of stuff. So it was kind of sure up identification. And then of course On that physical ID itself to provide something that would make it that was like, basically incorruptible or that was not easily forged. And so there were two states once again, that we decided that they were not going to honor the REAL ID Act, or we're going to delay it. And there were more first but there were two that were holds out and those two are the ones we represent there was New Hampshire and there's Pennsylvania. Now the Pennsylvania was basically like, we don't have enough time we have like a ton of citizens and our systems are apparently really antiquated. So we just need more time we do it in phases. New Hampshire at first was like, we're not gonna do that. Yeah. We just don't care. That seems like too much federal government oversight. They finally acquiesced. But I love that the first they were like, we're just not going to do that. That's not jam.

Tony Arsenal 27:45
Yeah. Well, it all boils down to New Hampshire, basically saying like, all right, TSA, you don't own me. You don't get to tell us what it's required to be on a plane or not. And the TSA was like Yeah, we really do. So we really do. If any of your citizens want to fly with their driver's license, then you better get in gear. And so all the citizens were like, Hey, guys, can you like, do something about this?

Unknown Speaker 28:14
So?

Jesse Schwamb 28:16
Yeah, oh, what a world we live in.

Tony Arsenal 28:18
One thing I will say in favor of the State of New Hampshire is that when neighboring states decided that they were going to start, they were going to try to charge New Hampshire residents sales tax if they purchase products within those states. So if I go to if you if you live in Vermont, you come to New Hampshire and try to buy something, you're not charged sales tax, but you're supposed to report that to the state of Vermont and pay sales tax to them essentially. But it doesn't work the other way. If I go to New Hampshire, I'm supposed they're supposed to be a mechanism whereby I don't have to pay sales tax to the state of Vermont, and there was no mechanism like that. So you get around it by just ordering everything online. But The neighboring states started to say, Well, no, if you order stuff online and it comes through our system, we're going to charge sales tax. And our governor was like, Nah, no. And so he actually bought it one. So now I don't have to pay sales tax. If I buy something online, it's it's pretty slick. But other than that, stay out of my business, stay out of my lawn.

Jesse Schwamb 29:20
The lack of sales, texting is pretty nice. I've actually I'm somewhat ashamed to admit this. But I've actually tried to figure out a way that I could like purchase a car in New Hampshire and bring it back here. But of course, like, they make it very difficult to do that, because you have to be out there for a certain period of time. And usually that time is excessive, like more than six months. But when the first car that I purchased was actually right over the border in Vermont, and because of this weirdness with New Hampshire where they don't have the sales tax. There's lots of places actually you purchase a car at the same place. There's lots of places that surround New Hampshire that I've gotten sales tax exemptions for this very reason because nobody would purchase like a expensive item right over the border when you could just go into New Hampshire like by your washer by your car and to this day the last thing I'll say about this eyebrows I already said that already is that my mother your mother in law if I'm talking to her about any topic and it's like just casually talking about purchasing some item surely say to me like Why don't you buy that here? Like if it was like I'd be like I had to go out and buy like a pair of pants that don't buy your pants they're buying a new hampshire's.

Tony Arsenal 30:30
Yeah, so we can we can What are you denying we better we better pull up and get you on track and get us on track.

Jesse Schwamb 30:38
Alright, here's my really fast denial. It's coming from an unexpected place. So I would say only late in life, am I coming to like a true and profound appreciation for Star Wars? Now I know there's a lot of people listen to that to our conversations and you in particular, have always had a profound appreciation. Star Wars. I've enjoyed the movies. But now I'm seeing like, Oh my word. There's like this amazing world that's out there. And so one of the things I endeavored to do was I thought, you know, what I need to supplement my movie viewing with is some written literature. And so then I went down the rabbit hole of like the extended Star Wars universe and the things that are canon. And I was like, let's just keep it pure. I will read your Disney canon authorized stuff. And so I picked up this book this this couple weeks ago, I read through it. It's fantastic book was master and apprentice. And but here's the thing that surprised me and I'm kind of denying against is that I was kind of hoping that what would happen is I would experience like the Harry Potter equivalent of Star Wars in that. I know, of course, that movies were created often before the written literature. I would guess I was thinking that when I picked up these books, it would give me like, more deeper, greater scope and breadth of like the Star Wars universe. And that has been true, but what I discovered was like, for instance, this first book, there are characters that are not in the movies. So I was like, hoping I'd be better able to relate to people that really love Star Wars like yourself included and that I'm going to appreciate. And yet what I found was I was like, oh, how about this person? Like, I don't know that person. And so I discovered that you have to enjoy the books together because I thought like maybe this would just be like, a better and grander version of the movies. And it's not entirely that, but it's it's related. So I guess I'm kind of denying against the fact that my expectations were totally messed up with respect to this, but you've read some of the books, right?

Unknown Speaker 32:29
I haven't actually. Oh, man, you got it specifically for that reason anything?

Jesse Schwamb 32:36
Yeah, I think that's what I'm denying against is like, I didn't realize that I would I have to get a whole new group of friends who have read the books.

Tony Arsenal 32:45
Yeah, the books are the books from what I've heard I tried to listen to there's a one called Aftermath which is basically like, it's there's this short trilogy that starts with a book called aftermath. That is supposed was to basically fill in the gaps between Return of the Jedi and Force Awakens. So supposed to explain like what's happening in, like the 30 years or so that happens between those two movies. And I got like, I listened to that I was listening to audio book and I got like, I don't know two chapters in I was like No, and I just returned it to Audible. I just couldn't do it, I couldn't get into it.

Jesse Schwamb 33:27
Well, I'm gonna, I think try to make my way through. And I know there are some books that are basically like literary versions of the movies. And again, this is all a little bit complicated because of Disney's involvement in this Yeah. But if anybody's read them, like, I feel like I need to talk to you because now I have characters in my head that are again, it's the nice thing about if you I would recommend if you want to read some Star Wars literature, one, it's super entertaining and it is very good. But second, I would encourage you to actually go with the camera. stuff that doesn't contradict any of the storylines that you probably are familiar with, by way of the movies. But by way of warning, you're about to get like, it's, it's not. Again, it doesn't contradict, but you're gonna get whole new storylines of characters that don't actually exist in the movies. There's nothing wrong with that. But I guess I was hoping to like, identify people in a more deep way. And so I'm realizing that I need to find those people that have read the books.

Tony Arsenal 34:22
Yeah, what you really need to do if you want to do that, if you want to resonate with the main characters more is you need to watch the Clone Wars cartoon that Disney did, and the Star Wars Rebels cartoon that Disney did, and they actually give you what you're looking for as far as like expanding the Canon universe like the core characters, you'll learn a lot more about anagen Skywalker. You learn a lot more about like the nature of the rebellion. The Clone Wars like the clone troopers get sort of an actual personality. That's the way to go. But I don't know about the books. I haven't read much of them.

Jesse Schwamb 34:58
Now there's they're super great. It's just it was a little bit unexpected for me. And one of the things that I've noticed that's been a little bit strange is so maybe I'm unique in that I have not seen the prequels. I haven't seen any of them. So I picked up this is supposed to be the first book which occurs before the prequel so I'm like, I feel like I'm primed for like some prequel action. Now I actually want to see the first movie which I I've never seen, I know some of the characters like I know Jar Jar, but just by extension of like this, like guys that people make in front of him. But the book inadvertently, like there's a there's kind of like an afterword in this first book that I read. It actually spoiled something that I did not know about, and I asked some people that are more verses. They're like, Oh, yeah, that's Yeah, that's something that's gonna happen. I was like, how did the book spoil something that I didn't even know about? So I maybe I'm a unique in a unique situation because I haven't seen the prequels.

Tony Arsenal 35:51
You'll have to tell me off air what that is. I mean, you you can just skip episode one, just go straight past episode one. There's really nothing. There's really Nothing in episode one that's actually all that important.

Jesse Schwamb 36:04
Okay, so here's, I feel like we've got to talk about this real quickly, even though we're far past the normal like a lot of time for affirmations. Already. This is more than

Tony Arsenal 36:13
50% of the way it is episode.

Jesse Schwamb 36:15
Yeah, it's already blown up. So here's the thing is like, I've heard that about the pretty cool, and I have some information because people like have spoken about it with me. And now I've tried to gather more information, like, based on reading stuff is like, What is this about? What is that about? Is that really true? But I hear that the prequel, the first one is not super good. But there's a lot of joking about the extent of the pod racing that occurs in the first one. So I'm just curious to see the pod racing.

Tony Arsenal 36:44
pod racing is visually appealing, but it really makes it adds nothing to the storyline.

The whole purpose of pod racing is to establish that anagen Skywalker is for sensitive and there are literally 1000 other better ways that they could have done that in order to do that. So here, here's the thing about Star Wars. Okay? This is going to be this is going to be will steal a book out of James White's This is going to be a mega episode we're going to have to go along. Here's the thing about Star Wars. It's 50% universe building, and 50%. How do we sell toys? Right that those are the two motivating factors for Star Wars. So pod racing, they're like, all right, how do we sell video games? pod racing, we need to make it we need to make something we can turn into a video game. Okay. How do we make that so it's not totally like, random in this universe? Oh, well, no human is supposed to be able to do pod racing. So I have this little kid who can do it. And the only reason why I can is because he's he can use the Force and he doesn't know it. That that's the extent of pod racing and how it got into the Star Wars universe. You can ask Conrad I'm sure he'll tell you the exact same, like account for why that's there. And there are literally a million different ways they could have done that they could have made. And he can demonstrate that he's for sensitive that don't involve this weird, stupid pod racing scene. And if they just took the pod racing scene and took it seriously, instead of making it like all jokey jokey all the time, you'll see it when you see that it. It's just bad. Like they tried to do this, like sports announcer thing and the sports announcer is like straight out of like Monday Night Football. It's just really poorly put together. They could have done a better job with it. And they just didn't see us a point.

Jesse Schwamb 38:38
So to wrap this all up, like I guess I'm a part denial part affirmation because it's only because I started reading it and becoming a little more interested in just a storyline that I've been able to have these really fun conversations and get to hear people talk about this because that I can't tell you of the informal survey that I've done, how polarizing the pod racing thing is. It's apparently a super big deal and apparently, it's It's fairly long in the movie.

Tony Arsenal 39:02
It is. It's like It's like 30% of the movie is about pod racing.

Jesse Schwamb 39:07
Yeah, this is great. I cannot wait to watch this because I haven't seen it. And so my expectations are already super low because everybody's spoken about it. So maybe that's the best place to go into it. Like maybe I'm maybe I'm like in the right environment in the right state of mind to watch it now. And I'm kind of excited about that.

Tony Arsenal 39:24
You should wait until we're at the beach for to watch these movies so I can watch them with you. But like the right way to watch episode one is to just like, watch the first like introductory scene where you get introduced to Obi Wan Kenobi and Qui Gon Jinn and you understand the relationship and kind of explains this pad one master relationship, and then just like skip all the way past the pod racing scene, until they're leaving tattooing, and then skip again until when they come back to Nobu. And I know like none of those places make any sense to you. But if you just skip those big chunks where like, all the time They're on Naboo and tattooing the first time, just skip all that and then go next straight to it. The movie would be like 30 minutes, it'd be great. It'd be like somebody who just tack on to the front half of the next movie. And then don't even get me started on the next movie.

Jesse Schwamb 40:19
Was was save that for another cast.

Tony Arsenal 40:21
There are so many object lessons about lust and the pence rule. Let's just put it this way. If anagen Skywalker followed the pentagram rule, then we wouldn't have Darth Vader. So let's just put it that way.

Jesse Schwamb 40:38
That's great

Unknown Speaker 40:39
segue for the force.

Jesse Schwamb 40:41
One of the many things I love about our conversations is our seeming ability to bring together things that should never exist in a single conversation into one seamless topic.

Tony Arsenal 40:53
Yes, now that we have 20 minutes left to talk about 18 verses Mike. Let's get rockin?

Jesse Schwamb 41:01
Yeah, let's, so let's get into it. And the thing about this is, this is like a horrible time to extend affirmation denials because this is the very last the ultimate, not the penultimate the last episode of The mica cast. So we're bringing this all to a close. And I'm actually been very excited about this passage because for all that we've been through, and we have been through a lot with respect to the topics we've talked about everything from disobedience and sinfulness to cannibalization to the destruction that God's going to bring on his people. The way this ends is so absolutely glorious that really I should probably talk about it for three hours.

Tony Arsenal 41:40
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the book of Micah has been full of ups and downs, like there's judgment, there's promises of salvation. There's promises of physical deliverance for God's people. There's promises of utter destruction of the land of Jerusalem. And you know, there are Are some profits that end on kind of a dour note sort of a dark, you know, like the book of Malika the last word of the book of Malika is curse, like there are some prophets and that way, Micah does not do that. And I really appreciate it as I was reading through these last 1010 verses here. He really comes at this and God really does leave the people of Israel and by extension, the Christian church, with this message of hope, and, and the gospel like, you know, people talk about how like Isaiah 53 is like the fourth gospel or like the gospel of Isaiah, but this section could really be called like the gospel of Molokai, and it has all of those same notes of theology that we've talked about throughout the whole book. There's some pretty clear christological illusions here. There's discussion that sort of leads us to talk about the elect, and about how God God chooses to save a remnant. And then there really is, there really is this L elements of Covenant theology that comes out in the text that's really just right on the face of it.

Jesse Schwamb 43:05
I totally agree. So without further teasing, let me read the full scope of these verses here. The all that's left in the book of Micah, and then we can chat about some of the pieces that are particularly we think, really draw us and so let me read beginning of verse eight all the way to the end of the book. Rejoice not over me, all my enemy when I fall, I shall rise when I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a light to me. I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me out to the lights, I shall look upon his vindication, then my enemies will see and shame will cover her who said to me, where is the Lord your God, my eyes will look upon her now she will be trampled down, like the mire of the streets a day for the building of your walls. In that day the boundary shall be extended, and that they will come to you from a Syria and the cities of Egypt and from each Egypt to the river and from sea to sea from mountain to mountain, but the earth will be desolate because of its inhabitants for the fruit of their deeds, shepherds, your people with your staff, the flock of your inheritance who dwell alone in a forest in the midst of a garden land. Let them graze ambition and guilty it as in the days of old, as in the days when you came out of the land of Egypt, I will show them marvelous things. The Nation self see and be ashamed of all their minds. They shall lay their hands on their mouths, their ears shall be deaf, they shall lick the dust like the serpent, like the crawling things of the earth, they shall come trembling out of the strongholds, they shall turn in dread to the Lord our God, and they shall be in fear of you. Who is a god like you, pardoning iniquity, and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever because he doesn't lights in steadfast love, he will again have compassion on us, he will tread our iniquities underfoot, you will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea, you will show faithfulness to Jacob and steadfast love to Abraham, as you have sworn to our fathers from the days of old.

Tony Arsenal 45:20
So there is so much going on in this section. And if it weren't for the fact that we were really trying to hit a really like special event on episode 179, and that the timing is important for that. I would have actually like cut this into two episodes.

Jesse Schwamb 45:37
So yeah, for sure.

Tony Arsenal 45:38
This, you know, we've got, we've got this interplay in the text throughout the whole book of Micah between sort of judgment and promise blessing and curses and salvation. And this section here sort of takes all of that and it shows that God God culminates his prophecy in the book of Micah. On this promise of salvation, and it really I mean, it really starts in verse seven, it says, but as for me, I will look to the Lord, I will wait for the God of my salvation, my God will hear me. And you can really look at verses eight through 18, as almost like an explanation of what that verse means what it means right for for Micah to look to the Lord and wait for the God of his salvation, and for God to hear him. And you know, one of the things that I've noticed, as I've read through my God, I've read through, I've read through the book probably a dozen times since we started this series. And sometimes it's really hard to figure out who exactly is the speaker? Right? Sometimes it's really clear that Mike is talking sometimes it's really clear. I mean, Micah is obviously talking through the whole thing because he's the writer, but sometimes it's really clear he's intending sort of speaking the voice of God, or to speak in the voice of the wicked people or to speak in the voice of the remnant. Right. But this is a section where the commentators have kind of remarked, it's not always clear exactly who he's supposed to be representing here. So you know, some of the options are that Micah is speaking basically as a representative of all the remnant people who will one day be saved by the Lord. And so so the people of Israel, true spiritual Israel is saying, I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I've sinned against him, until the Lord has pleaded my cause or please my cause and executes judgment for me. And there's a little bit of a reversal expectation there if we are reading it. And we think that this is Micah speaking as represented the elect, because if he's bearing the ignition indignation of the Lord, because he sinned against him, what we would expect is not that the Lord would execute judgment for the people of Israel, but that the Lord would execute judgment on the people of Israel. So in that case, there's this reversal expectation. However, I actually think you can make a good argument that this is actually the profit sort of Looking forward in time or being given a glimpse in time, and it's actually granted you can't do this in a strict sense. But in a sense, it's, it's Jesus Christ speaking on behalf of his people, right? Obviously Jesus didn't sinned against the Lord, but he did take the sins of the people on onto him. So when he pleads in front of the Lord, you know, the Lord's Prayer is not just the Lord's model prayer, but it's also the Lord praying, right? So we can think of, we can think of what you know, the Lord goes into the presence of God, and he's praying, you can essentially picture him praying the Lord's Prayer. And in that prayer, it's forgive us our sins as we have forgiven those who sinned against us. Well, Jesus prays that prayer, even though he is not committed he personal sin. And so in verse nine here, Christ will bear the indignation of the Lord, because he bearing the sin of the people have sinned against God until the Lord pleads the cause of his people and executes judgment for the Lord. Jesus Christ, right so so there's this christological Trinitarian Nexus here that the sun as as the god man goes into the Lord's presence and pleads pleads to the Lord for His people, because they have sinned against him. So he comes representing sinners and he pleads his Kiki pleads his case to the Lord, but he has to bear the indignation of the Lord. But then Trinitarian Lee speaking the sun as God executes judgment, because he has also played his case to the Father. So there's this nexus here that happens that I think is really interesting. There's also some people who say like, well, this is just the wicked people, but the Lord doesn't execute judgment on them. He execute judgment for them.

Jesse Schwamb 49:47
Right? Yeah, I like where you're going with that because there's something here that's like tremendously deep and beautiful just by itself. Many have commented I'm not the first that this has like a him feel to it. The There's something in these last verses that is almost song like in the expression. And that's almost why, like I pause so dramatically between this shift, and the topic at hand there and what's being said, and there is something about understanding who we're talking about and whom is speaking. So we spoke last time I think about when we looked at Micah seven, the beginning part, that he is describing this universe of corruption society. And there's, of course, this scarcity of righteous men, and trying to find them as I trying to find fruit after the crop has been picked. But in verse seven, there's this contrast drawn between like the speaker and the corrupt society, which he lives. But when we get to verses eight and following, like, as you already noted, the prophet Micah seems to identify himself with the community of Israel and to speak for them. And there's something also wrapped up in that where there's this kind of eschatological focus, there's something beyond but that applies to the current time and there's this telescoping into the future as to whom is speaking and what they're speaking about. And so what strikes me about this In kind of addition to what you said is, there's like a boldness and Micah here, despite his sinful state that I think has to point us toward that Nexus that you're referring to. Because I think the reason Mike is so bold in his brokenness is because he knows God. He knows that what is really amazing and unique about God, which he asks who is, who is it God like you? That means there? Of course there is no god like the one we're talking about, about your way. God's ways, of course, a higher than our ways God's ways are higher than any deity in the world. And what is God's uniqueness? And it's that God pardons iniquity and passes over the transgression of his people. And this the peculiar uniqueness about the God of the Bible. There is no god like that. And so I think that should propel us into this idea that if we do not feel our sin and guilt, then we will not go deep into the pardon of God. But it also works the other way. If you don't know the depths of God's pardon, you won't know to go deep within your own sin. Yeah, the only way I think that we can understand this is is he's talking about a representative that somehow can be the one who intercedes between us and God, but has the rights and the authority to plead the case. Right. And so in, in this whole last series, we talked about God as both just and justifier. That was the way that we were properly way out theories of atonement. And I think that's what we're seeing here. It's embedded, it's like, compounded and what he's saying, but we have to look for it. It's not that it's so obvious, but it is plain. Does that make sense?

Tony Arsenal 52:35
It does, you know, I was reading in Herman would see us today and I just want to find this spot because I wasn't reading in preparation for this but there's a section here that I highlighted like the whole section, because it was just so good. This is wonderful podcasting for me to like scroll through my notes trying to find it. But But this section that I read In witzy, us today is on the person of the surety. And he goes through and it's a totally classically reformed formulation. There's nothing in there that would be surprising or unexpected in terms of how he reasons through this. But he basically is talking about the reason why it's the case that Christ had to be both God and man. And so he he has this quote here.

Jesse Schwamb 53:31
Do you need me to create like some kind of

Tony Arsenal 53:34
music or something?

Jesse Schwamb 53:38
All right. This is why we're podcasting. Perfect. Yes,

Tony Arsenal 53:40
I got it. So he says here he says, seeing that man, therefore had by sin, shamefully deface the image of God, which he received in the first creation, and thereby most justly exposed himself to the hatred of God was not worthy of God to restore that image by his own essential image. The human nature he had assumed, in order by that means to open away for our return to the favor and love of the Father, in fine could the philanthropy and love of the Father be more illustrious Lee displayed to us that in giving his only begotten Son to us, and for us that in him we might behold the Father's glory. And so so the idea here is that not only does it have to be a person who is both man and both God, but it's actually fitting because of who the son is in relation to the Father. And because of how the son functions as the word and image of the Father in the act of creating that Jesus Christ. The second person of the Trinity is the only proper person, even out of the three persons of the Trinity to bring about our salvation, because it was and this is actually reasoning straight out of Athanasius. There's there's a section in Athanasius where he says it's almost exactly I think that if if the Church Fathers, if the Reformation folks used footnotes, you probably would have been footnoting this but it really is just this beautiful expression, where we understand that the the media Tory work of Christ is not something that was like all the sudden blown onto the scene in the pages of the New Testament. It's not like there was not this, this movement in the Old Testament. You know, when I was reading this section, the first thing that thought to me that popped into my mind, especially when we're going on to the next one, it's almost like Micah is quoting job here. Right? Because Joe has that section in the middle where he says, basically, if only there was somebody who could put his arm on my shoulder and plead my case before Yes. And then he has this weird sort of weird section where he says, I know my Redeemer lives and I will see him in my flesh, which some commentators will say, like, well, that's not really about Jesus, but I don't know how you get around it. But then here you see in verse 10, my enemy We'll see and shame will cover her who said to me, whereas the larger God, right it seems like he's actually thinking about the book of Job and how jobs wife basically said like where's your Where's your God and all the midst of this, but just like Job had this hope that we don't actually know other than that job was acting in some some prophetic fashion. We don't actually know why job would have talked about this medium or like, that's not something that was common in other ancient Near Eastern religions at the time and in that area to talk about this media Tory office that sort of like mitigates the wrath of God and pleads the case of, of the human to the gods that just didn't exist. And so job operates in this prophetic office. We see that in Isaiah, there's all sorts of references in Isaiah 53 and other places. And then it Micah here there's this clear statement that God himself has to plead the cause of the righteous or the unrighteous in In order to justify the ungodly, so I mean this is christological through and through

Jesse Schwamb 57:06
it, it really is and in fact, like God is really the only one that is qualified to make that kind of plea. It's that like you said this, it's unique with respect to the fact that in this prophetic voice as Mike express it, the conclusion of the chapter and actually the whole book dwells on the fact that God's grace will ultimately triumph over his people sin. And that is what I think should lead us to like immediate doxology because yeah, for Christians, as we see it in Micah, this posture is grounded and intensified by knowing Jesus Christ and what he did for us in the cross. So for Micah, Jesus was only a hope and chapter five, and he actually says, but you, O Bethlehem from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, he shall standard Shepherd his flock, in the strength of the Lord. And then we got all this wonderful language again, right at the end here about the separate again the shepherding this good shepherd, lay down his life. For his sheep, and when he did we see with greater clarity, the greatness of our sin that's required the extent of the suffering and the greatness of God's resolve to pardon it. And so the brokenness and the broken heartedness and the boldness, all these things are intensified. And I think that's what Micah is drawing out in these final verses. And so, one of the things I think is really interesting is, I know you already know this, but I think it's worth highlighting that really to help us understand divine forgiveness. I find it amazing that the Heidelberg catechism refers to this passage, when the prophet Micah Marvels at the greatness of God's pardon and we can grow so accustomed to this being what's normative and normal that we lose this. So Micah 718 emphasizes the uniqueness of the Lord's forgiveness, revealing that there's no other deity that can offer the same kind of pardon, that the one true God, the covenant Lord of Israel offers to his people. And so in light of the entire Bible, God's forgiveness This is incompatible because he forgives us in Christ Jesus, of course, without compromising His holy justice. That's like Romans three. Only the God of the Scripture is both Justin justifier. I know that's where we ended, and the whole tournament thing. But I was just blown away actually, like just bowled over by here we have it expressed again with Micah, and it's done. It's just put front and center. The other gods of this world who of course, are no not Gods at all, but really demons masquerading as Gods compromise. Their self proclaimed righteousness when they quote unquote, forgive because they do not demand true atonement for sin. And so what I think is so telling is if you want to give a litmus test of whether something is true or false, whether a worldview is is actual or not, whether it reflects reality is this test of the Justin justifier that you're going to find that there's always a compromise that undoes the entire worldview and only in Christianity Do you have a cohesiveness That brings together both a true forgiveness that provides an absolution for sin. But that also brings judgment upon the sin itself. And here is Micah pointing us to that fact.

Tony Arsenal 1:00:11
Yeah, yeah, that's a good a good point. And you know, one thing I kind of want to talk a little bit about before we wind down is, you know, we haven't seen, obviously, Micah is a Jewish prophet. There's there's overtones and themes of Covenant throughout the book. But what we see at the end here is a real Stark reliance on covenant theology. And one of the criticisms of Covenant theology, whether it is in its, you know, 1646 Westminster form, or at 1689. You know, federalism form, whatever reformed federal theology has a couple different forms, but one of the criticisms is that it's basically a novel approach that was an unknown before the reformation, which historically just isn't the case. case. But when you look at this text, all of the major themes of Covenant theology are present, right? So Shepherd your people with your staff, the flock of your inheritance. Well, if we read this crystal logically like we have been, the inheritance that the Son receives is the inheritance which the Father gives him according to the terms of the covenant of works, right? Yes. But then we go down here as in the days and he came out of the land of Egypt, right? Well, there's a reference to the Exodus, which is a major event in covenant, redemptive history. And then here's where I think it gets interesting. So one of the themes we've, we haven't talked a lot about, but is this theme of the seed of the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent? Right Genesis 315, I will put emnity I will put emnity against you, right. He's speaking to the serpent serpent, the woman of enmity against the serpent, and her seed will crush the serpent's head and the serpent will bruise or wound, the seeds heal Well, the enemies of God and of God's people here. What are they? What are they consigned to what's their ultimate curse here at the end of the book, they shall lick the dust like a serpent, like the crawling things of the earth. The the thing that they are cursed with or the thing that they are finally consigned to, in this desolate place, because the inhabitants of the earth have been sinful, is the same exact curse, that the serpent bears in the garden that he will crawl on his belly, that he will eat the dust, and that they will, they will fear not only God, but they will fear God's people, right? So the curse on the circle is not just that it'd be afraid of God, but that there will be enmity between the woman and the serpent that there will be fear in the serpent of the woman. And then here we go. Who is it God like you pardon iniquity, and passing over transgression for the remnant of what? his inheritance he doesn't retain his anger forever, but he delights in steadfast love. Well, then if we go down to verse 20 This ends with a statement of continuity with the covenant given to Jacob, you will show faithfulness to Jacob and steadfast love to Abraham, as you have sworn to our fathers from the days of old. So this book ends by basically proclaiming that the Lord Jesus Christ will redeem his people by pleading their cause before the Father, that he will be faithful to the covenant he made with Abraham and Jacob. And that because of these things, the enemies of God, who are the seed of the serpent, will face the same fate as the devil himself. Like you couldn't get any more covenant theology than that if you tried.

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:42
I think you're right. That sounded like just a really aggressive and I loved it.

Tony Arsenal 1:03:47
It's true, though, like you couldn't, you couldn't you couldn't put this together in a way that is more blatantly what the Westminster and I think to a lesser degree, of course, the 69% Like, this is federal theology. This is this is what it is you couldn't put it together in a way that supports that theology more than this. And that's because that rheology is derived from the scriptures.

Jesse Schwamb 1:04:12
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Honestly, that's probably where we should probably wind this down, because that was that was right on. I totally agree with that.

Tony Arsenal 1:04:21
Yeah, I would drop my mic, but it's super expensive. So

Jesse Schwamb 1:04:27
don't put, like the wonderful thing about what we've been talking about is it really, if people have been tracking with us, and hopefully they've been reading along, but you could sit down, of course and read the book of Mike in a single sitting. It really is a journey. I mean, it's heart wrenching, it is grotesque at times. It is both beautiful and it is absolutely ugly. And so to end in this place, where we see that God is going to win out that actually, you know, this whole idea that of Rob Bell, you know, this idea of love wins is of course, wrong. So many epic levels, but it's that love that wins primarily, it's grace that wins. It's God sovereignly choosing his elect the inheritance, as you've already said, and bring it about in a way that is covenantal in a way that shows that all along. This is actually his profound a beautiful plan. And here's just one corner of the scriptures in which we find the people in both their their current circumstance. And then Micah pointing to the grand narrative, where we see that grace wins, because God is loving and full of grace. And not only that, but I like the argument that you're making in terms of this covenantal thing is also the same one that we've been talking about with respect to the fact that this is what makes God so different. Our Gods so different is what makes him the one and the true God is it's being manifest in the way that salvation is coming out in a covenant away. So because if you look at any other religious worldview, it's going to be absent this kind of covenantal environment that we're doing. Talking about Yeah. And that I think is where we see both logic and human reasoning and spirituality, and God's redemptive plan all coming together such that there is a cohesiveness that is not circumstantial or by accident. And so even within Micah, we have this grand proof for the fact that God exists, and that he is real, and that this is the only way in fact that humankind can make sense of what is this sin? And who is this God? And what are these, these standards that we have embedded and pounded in our lives and written on our hearts and our conscience is, all of that comes together this grand combination. And it's almost surprising to say, oh, here we find it in this little minor prophet of Micah, who is writing in the most horrible of circumstances. And yet it is this reflection of here is strength for today. And hope for tomorrow, like, could anybody conceive of this I could, could the human mind can see of this type of thing and put it on paper.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:00
I just don't think so.

Tony Arsenal 1:07:03
No, I agree like every other religious system that's out there that is man made. So everything except the Judaism of the Old Testament and Christianity of the new. Everything else involves man, somehow paying off God, or somehow being good enough to garner God's favor, either good enough to outweigh his displeasure, or good enough to obligate him to do something for us. There is no other religious system that really truly operates on the basis of a gracious God saving not because of some cosmic principle that he's obligated to, or some sort of cosmic force that motivates him to save. But as Micah says here, because he delights in steadfast love right now saves us not because There's some reason to that is external to himself, but simply because it is in his nature to be gracious and loving and to redeem those who are far from him. That's that's in his very nature to do. And and you know, there's complex theology that doesn't. That explains how that doesn't make somehow justification internal reality. We have to get into that you can read James dollas, all his book, he talks about it, and I think it's the last chapter, right? God is the Redeemer in eternity past justice. He's the creator prior to creating. He's the Redeemer prior to redeeming. He doesn't become the Redeemer because he redeems he redeems because he is the Redeemer. And that that's exactly what Mike is saying here is that God saves the remnant of his inheritance, because he delights in doing so.

Jesse Schwamb 1:08:54
And we have to plant our flags here because I would say most of the time, our modern postmodern culture wants us to believe that religions are fundamentally the same and only different on the peripherals. And what we have here is a clear indication that they're fundamentally different. Right and only semi on the peripherals and we think speak about things like love, we might find some overlap with respect to some really ephemeral definition of that term. But fundamentally, the Bible makes it clear even by asking the question, who is like our God? And of course, the rhetorical answer is no one, there is no comparison. And so I feel like that should give us an immense sense sense of security and pride. Only from the perspective of that, when we rely on God, we are proud that we come to the one who is the maker of all things, who tells us the truth about all things who has power over all things, and who has redeemed us from all things, but only because he is a loving and exhibits gracefulness. Therefore we cannot be proud because we have something within us. That increases seats ourself to God, as you've already said, but we ought to be proud in the sense that we know this God. And so that should fire us up to of course bring forward an evangelical presentation, and a living in a sense that brings glory to God and points to him in all things. And so I think that Micah calls us even within this, like he gives the challenge at the end of this podcast, which is going live. Likewise, it was like Paul says, you know, live in a manner that's worthy of the calling to which you've been called. And so if we know the one true God, then we ought to be about proclaiming the one true God both Yeah, not only in how we behave, but particularly in the words that we speak and in the Gospel that we share that this is it loved ones, I mean, this is this is everything. There is no other message. There is only one name under heaven by which men may be saved. And that is Jesus Christ. So what a beautiful thing to know at the end of the day that you are on that rock. You know, there's so many things that seem unknown in our world right now that seemed confused. That seemed like there are many different ways of understanding and this is not one of those things.

Tony Arsenal 1:11:06
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that is as good a way to wrap up Micah casts as any. And since this is the only as this is the only Micah cast that there is, as far as I know, right? This is not only the definitive episode on Micah seven, eight through 18. This is the definitive series of any podcast on the book of Micah.

Jesse Schwamb 1:11:30
It is that's true. And in case somebody is wondering, what's lined up for the future. One word, awesome. That's all I'm saying. We got got stuff coming up. We're going to kick it old school. We're going to be doing a couple of episodes on different topics that are kind of come up in the course of this we're going to answer some questions, but you can look forward to next week. Of course, we've got book cast. We're back in reform preaching by Dr. Joel beaky. After that we've got an episode for some questions. We're gonna address and then after that hopefully something even more awesome

Tony Arsenal 1:12:04
it's true I will give you listeners dear listeners a hint the number 179 is significant Do you think

Unknown Speaker 1:12:15
anybody knows why

Jesse Schwamb 1:12:16
if they actually if they're really good listener I mentioned this

Tony Arsenal 1:12:20
How about this the first person to email info at reformed brotherhood calm and correctly tell us why the number 179 is significant it gets a free mug

Unknown Speaker 1:12:35
Okay, let's let's up the

Tony Arsenal 1:12:36
stakes. They get a free a free limited edition reformed brotherhood beer Stein that is not so limited edition but they'll get a beer sign for free the first person to email us and tell us why Episode 179 is important. gets a free reformed brotherhood beer Stein.

Jesse Schwamb 1:12:53
I love it. That's the way we need to go out.

Tony Arsenal 1:12:55
Yes. And Jesse we haven't done this in a while. But where where do you think Get such things like a reformed brotherhood mug or a beer Stein?

Jesse Schwamb 1:13:03
Oh, that is a really good question. And I'm glad you asked it cuz my mind just went blank on the website

Tony Arsenal 1:13:11
you can find all of our gear at I almost said mission aware that's not right confessional where our brother rafaelle who puts together all of our merchandise. He you know he's been such a good friend to the show. He's so good. He puts together awesome looking stuff. He's helped other podcasts get set up, he did a bunch of merch for, according to Christ before they shut down for he's got cool stuff for reform pilgrims. There's a sweet new mug that they made with their new logo on it. That's really, really almost said dope. Apparently I'm like, I don't know. Is that what the kids are saying these days?

Jesse Schwamb 1:13:47
I mean, the kids from 1990. Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 1:13:49
yeah, but you can go to confessional were calm and there's a section there for the reform brotherhood. You can buy t shirts, you can buy the 16 ounce mugs which we love you fit your whole hand. The handle you can buy still can buy for brotherhood beer Stein hoodie, there's all sorts of cool stuff. And we're looking to add some more sweet stuff to there as well. So do us a favor help out the show help out rafail by going and checking out all the gear, there's lots of other cool stuff too. And as I said, the first person to email info at reformed brotherhood calm and tell us why Episode 179 is significant. gets a free beer Stein.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:27
I love it.

Tony Arsenal 1:14:29
Alright, well, until next time, Jesse. Honor everyone.

Jesse Schwamb 1:14:32
Love the Brotherhood.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai