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Tony and Jesse approach the contentious issue of how to react to the COVID-19 pandemic, specifically in relation to canceling worship services.

Jesse Schwamb 0:10
Welcome to Episode 178 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony and this is the podcast of brotherly love.

Hey, brother.

Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey, brother, Happy 178 to you 178

Tony Arsenal 0:35
man, that's a lot of podcasts. That's a lot of hours of our voice.

Jesse Schwamb 0:39
It is and as we've said before, at these milestones that either we make up or that are some you know, even number we always say there are people, brothers and sisters who have listened to all hundred 78 hours. And that is an exceptional achievement.

Tony Arsenal 0:56
Yeah, I feel like nobody except my wife should have listened to my For 178 hours, but there are people out there that have done it.

Jesse Schwamb 1:05
People have done it. And because we have a milestone next week that undisclosed milestone so to speak, you issued two challenges. And one next week we're going to disclose why that episode is particularly significant to us. But last week, you also gave a challenge to say, hey, maybe you want to come up with a possible funny explanation Yes.

For why 179 is important.

Tony Arsenal 1:33
Yeah. Yeah, so the challenge was the funniest as subjectively assessed by Jessie and myself. answer for why 179 was important. We'll win a reformed brotherhood t shirt. So Jesse on aren't going to try to navigate it on the air. We'll talk about which one's the funniest after we record but we will, we will notify the funny winner. via email.

Jesse Schwamb 1:59
Hello How would I share a couple of these? Let's do it. Okay, so you ready for this? Yeah. And you can you can provide your feedback if you want.

Tony Arsenal 2:07
Okay. Thank you for patience.

Jesse Schwamb 2:11
Listen to ego terian whatever you want to contribute, so there's there was a i. So here's what I've learned in issuing this challenge. People have interesting senses of humor. I think it's funny. So I think this is great. We got a variety of responses. Let me just share a couple of them. So here's one. This is from Mary surhoff. She says 179 is the total number of Lenten memes. Tony has posted this.

Tony Arsenal 2:38
I did see that in the email box tonight. I smiled greatly when that came through. I don't actually know how many I did post there was a lot. I was little In fact, I was asked in multiple groups to stop posting them.

Unknown Speaker 2:51
So

Jesse Schwamb 2:53
cease and desist

Tony Arsenal 2:54
Mission accomplished.

Jesse Schwamb 2:56
I love that. You know what, that was a theme throughout. many emails there were some reference to the number of memes you'd posted. Yes, Mike Washburn, he gives three potential options. The first is what he labels a dad joke pawn. He says Episode 179 is significant because it's the last episode before you do a total 180

Tony Arsenal 3:19
even be the Armenian brotherhood. I think it has to be the Roman Catholic brotherhood shocker. I did do an April Fool's Day joke one year, where I turn I changed the name of a Facebook group that I was managing, which was the reformed Think Tank. I changed it to the Eastern Orthodox Think Tank. And it was a small group. There was like six or seven people in it, but they all lost their mind. It was amazing.

Jesse Schwamb 3:48
That's great. Yeah, I don't know. But that would be a shocker if on 179 we turned it into the reformed Armenian.

Tony Arsenal 3:55
Yeah,

Jesse Schwamb 3:56
exactly. That's a good one is everything. So he has He has two alternatives one that pokes fun at me one that pokes fun at you. So the one poking fun at me as he says Episode 179 is significant because that's the average the average number of times Jesse says metabolize or distill or show

Tony Arsenal 4:17
that one's pretty good. Or you could say content proceeds or intent proceeds content that's what you like. Yes.

Jesse Schwamb 4:24
I'm so glad that these things have finally

Tony Arsenal 4:29
what else do you say a lot of

Jesse Schwamb 4:31
listen I got I got a lot of go twos but I definitely love a good metabolize and good distance. Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 4:37
those are That's true. What what what was his jab at me?

Jesse Schwamb 4:40
Share them among your friends. Well, once again, there is a theme for you and he says Episode 179 is significant because that's how many hours per week Tony spends generating Ash Wednesday me.

Tony Arsenal 4:52
Yes, that that was a full time job for a while I did have to use all my earned time at work to maintain the Ash Wednesday. means the scorched earth Wednesday means.

Jesse Schwamb 5:05
So here just two more because I think these are great and creative as well. Lots of creativity among the listeners. So this is from Jim had injure and he says 179 a significant episode for an obvious reason. He says the number seven finds itself between the digits six and eight in our current mathematical constructs. This 179 can be seen as a stand in for Episode 1689 Ergo the plan of Episode 179 is for Tony to announce that he has seen the light and fully embrace the temporary from onda ideal by publicly embracing credo baptism and 1689 federalism. Well, obviously this podcast will in fact, continue to Episode 69 and beyond. Tony can wait no longer to express his joy in the beauty of this reformed Baptist understanding of the Scriptures.

Tony Arsenal 5:52
Wow. Uh, I hate to disappoint. I guess I don't really hate to disappoint. That is not that is not the answer. In a very real sense, it's actually the opposite of the answer, which is glorious. We'll leave that one out there to tease the crowd.

Jesse Schwamb 6:09
So create a one more. This is from Jamie Francis, he writes, Episode 179 is so titled because it reminds everyone that apart from Christ, both Tony and Jesse's podcasting skills would be deceitful in wicked above all things. Who could even understand either of them? And he says, Jeremiah 17, nine, Episode 179.

Tony Arsenal 6:31
That should be the that should be the motto of our podcasts, who couldn't even understand them.

Jesse Schwamb 6:39
It's actually not a bad

Tony Arsenal 6:43
brotherhood, the reformed brotherhood who can even understand them.

Jesse Schwamb 6:48
So that's just a sampling so many creative responses. It's been so fantastic. So I guess there's still a little bit of time if somebody wants to send one in it to info at reform brotherhood.com

Tony Arsenal 7:00
Yeah, yeah, it's a it's good keep keep them coming that the creativity is, is definitely appreciated. We have the best. Like we have the best listeners just people get into it. They they love, you know to throw some jokes at us we get good questions. People are thoughtful. We don't have any like, I don't think we have like trolls that are coming after us most of the time. So that's good. So we appreciate our audience. We appreciate those who are a part of this crazy experiment that we call the reformed brotherhood, so keep them coming.

Jesse Schwamb 7:31
Yeah, this has been great. And the nice thing about it is really is kind of like a family. That sounds so cliche, but in your family, you get to poke fun at each other, right? You get to know that no matter what happens at the end of the day, you're bound together by an inseparable bond. So that's something that I would like everybody to just metabolize because I've really tried to distill down the essence of earthworm brotherhood.

Unknown Speaker 7:52
Wow. Just Wow.

Jesse Schwamb 7:56
That's gonna become a drinking game. Now you realize people are going to go back and listen to 100 and Me on hours of me saying those two words and now they're just gonna like pop right out of a recording.

Tony Arsenal 8:05
There you go. stick that in your pipe and metabolize it.

Jesse Schwamb 8:09
That's fantastic. Well, let's go into some affirmations and denials. Yes. What do you want to start with first this week affirmations, denial? Let's let's

Tony Arsenal 8:17
do affirmations. Why don't you go first?

Jesse Schwamb 8:20
Okay. So many episodes ago, some may recall that I affirmed with a band that I enjoy and they're producing a new album and they're doing something somewhat experimental where they were asking for people to sing a particular line, a lyric, a melody, and then we're going to bring that all together in this chorus and use it as part of one of their songs. That album is out so I'm affirming with a band called dens D and s. And their new album entitled taming tongues. This is just a fanatic fanatic. This is a fantastic and amazing and fanatically awesome rock out It's just really good, solid, like thick, juicy rock, there's i don't think i think there's hardly like any yelling in this. I know I have to qualify that for some. Because you're used to me just giving you the yelling album. Nothing makes me happier than when I recommend a piece of music. And then I get feedback from the listener. It says, I was not prepared to turn this on in my vehicle by myself at 630 in the morning. So this is not necessarily one of those albums. It's just a really good solid rock album. Yeah, beautiful music. The lyrics are on point. And it's 11 tracks and I can give you the listing and the names of those tracks right now. Even foolish men are wise when they learn to keep quiet. So in this particular album, they just titled everything one word within that sentence. So dens taming tongues. The last track on this called quiet, that's the one where if you want to hear my voice merged with a bunch of others, you'll hear in the chorus. It's a really beautiful song so you can find This affirmation under the music category.

Tony Arsenal 10:03
Nice. Nicely done.

Jesse Schwamb 10:06
How about you? What are you affirming?

Tony Arsenal 10:08
So I this is an oldie but a goodie, this is one of those standing affirmations, but it bears repeating. You know, as we went through mica cast, I realized like, we haven't been referencing the confessions and the catechisms as much just because of the nature of the way that we were approaching those, those episodes. So I'm affirming catechisms you know, the one thing that I've learned about the catechisms as I've worked over the past couple years to just really work on memorizing the Westminster shorter catechism is that the strength of a catechism if you are faithful to memorize it, is that it actually creates this like this framework for you to process any possible question about reality. And so, you know, the the Westminster catechism says that the things that the scripture says Principle he teaches is what man is to believe concerning God and what duty God requires of man. And there's nothing in all of reality, there's no question in all of reality that doesn't in some sense relate to those two axes. Right? So this will this will become important with our topic today is that, you know, like you can very quickly if you are really kind of breathing the air of the Catechism, you can quickly apply any situation you can apply the wisdom of God's law to it through this sort of distillation. How do you like that one of the catechisms thought on the moral law of God, so I'm just affirming the reformed catechisms.

Jesse Schwamb 11:40
That's great. I mean, that I The thing is, we should have like some standing affirmations, where we just kind of go back and wait into them every once in a while, as if just to say it's always good to like rehearse these things, bring it back into your life, because with everything with human experience, we just grow so accustomed to what we eat becomes normative. And so I like that I mean, I know people will say like, you've talked about that before, but we're gonna keep talking about it because it's so valuable. And we're just so prone to wander away from truth. That to have something that we always come back to that we can rely on. Listen, we got it. Well affirm that every day that we can twice on the Lord's day. It's true

Tony Arsenal 12:15
every day of the week and twice on Lord's day. That's another thing you say a lot. We I've picked it up.

Jesse Schwamb 12:21
It's just so good, though,

Tony Arsenal 12:22
is it's a good thing. What about it?

Jesse Schwamb 12:24
How about this? Do we so before the denial? Do we have phrases that though we've kind of made uniquely our own that are stuff that we just use, like in our conversation here that must exist, right?

Tony Arsenal 12:35
Yeah, I guess. I mean, I can't

Unknown Speaker 12:37
think of any though,

Tony Arsenal 12:39
that we only we use here.

Jesse Schwamb 12:42
Yeah, mostly like in our conversations, or if there's something that's like kind of uniquely Jessie and Tony ish that we say to each other. I'm sure there's somebody is gonna say, you guys say this to each other or you use this phrasing. Yeah. Or they'll just talk about how we describe like the structural integrity and lack thereof, that That kind of stuff. Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 13:01
yeah, let us know listeners. I mean, I think you and I aren't the people to know that. Like, it's it's probably kind of, it's like scent blindness like if we were not the ones that are recognize the unique phrases that we use because we're, we're the ones that are using them like we're the goldfish in the bowl.

Jesse Schwamb 13:19
Yeah, we're so our conversation is the water in which we swim. Yeah, exactly. No, we're in it. Yeah, that's beautiful. Our metaphors are always on point.

Tony Arsenal 13:27
Yeah. And and miss.

Jesse Schwamb 13:31
That actually could be our thing. It's we don't care. We will straight crushed two or three or four metaphors together. Yes,

Tony Arsenal 13:38
jumble them all up. Yeah, who can even understand them?

Jesse Schwamb 13:46
I'm telling you, Jamie's goddess. It's good. It's the new tag. It is. Yeah. Who can even understand them? So denials? Yes.

Tony Arsenal 13:53
What are you denying?

Jesse Schwamb 13:55
This is something that has to do a bit with language actually. So you're once again your use of segue I mean, at this point 178 year straight professional, so the Segway was amazing. I'm denying against a piece of language, it's in the context of the world over, of course, we're trying to understand what Cova 19 means. And there are people, of course, that are struggling with both how to live, how to keep the normalize, how to heal, how to be sensitive and loving to their neighbors. And there's a particular part of language that has popped up in the context of this discussion. That for me was totally unexpected, but I have seen used in my daily life and now all sudden it's like into the public, and people don't know what the heck it is. So there's you notice already I think, actually, this is not something that's unfamiliar to you. So we talked about like diseases and the spread of disease or viruses like the models that actually determined like all the permutations of possible combinations and exposures. There is a letter abbreviation that reflects basically like the I think what it's Call this basically like the spread rate so to speak in normal language. And that's the the letter R with a subscript of the number zero, if you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah. So what's funny though, is that people are referring to this in a specific way. And they're often misspelling it or not understanding what it means. So usually, I would say like, in most of like the, the western, like American English speaking world, we'd call that like r sub zero, it's a capital R with a lower with a zero that's just below the text line, right? But it can also be called that reference that zero the word not na UGHT not an OT, which is where I see a lot of it being spelled Yeah. And what's weird about this is are not or anything with the sub zero or the knot, is like not is actually a British word for zero. So let me just pick this up somewhere along the way, everywhere. So I'm just Seeing it now posted everywhere. And I think people are just like throwing it around without understanding that it's not spelled an OT. Yeah, and it just means zero and it kind of when you think of it that way, it just sounds like super fancy. Like, I suppose if you want to be consistent, you should call like the hood of a car bonnet, and you should say aluminium, and all that other stuff. So I guess this is just a personal annoyance on my part I'm denying against the lack of understanding what not means.

Tony Arsenal 16:27
Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you there. I love I love finding those little things that people consistently like get wrong. Like when people say all intent, all intensive purposes. Or, or it's a doggy dog world, like doggy do Gigi. People say that? It's a doggy dog world. And they mean like, it's a really, really doggish world instead of dog eat dog world. Yeah, there's a lot of memes that float around with Like that kind of thing of like, like, Miss They call him like malapropisms. Like when you you? Yeah. You think you're saying one thing which you're saying a different thing? Yeah.

Jesse Schwamb 17:11
Right. And I think that some people have thoughts not everybody, but because this is kind of like a not a novel, but it's a little bit of a nuanced mathematical reference, that what they're referring to is like, are not means something is not going to happen, right. As opposed to it's just a representation for our sub zero, which is like the spread rate. It's pure mathematical convention, right, which makes it beautiful, of course, who doesn't love a good math reference in their casual conversation? I know I do. But, you know, this is just one of the things that got thrown into the public sphere because of the the coronavirus and now it's it's spreading just as fast.

Tony Arsenal 17:47
Yeah, yeah, it's it's like a virus. It

Jesse Schwamb 17:53
just now my turn. Wow. even understand. Alright, so stand them. How about you? What are you denying

Tony Arsenal 17:59
so So this is a little bit on the serious side of a denial. And it's related to our topic today in a not super direct way, but it's related is I'm denying not bearing with each other in love. So spoiler alert, what we're going to be talking about today is the idea of canceling church service because of the coronavirus, right. We're going to talk about that. That's our topic. So spoiler alert, but there are a lot of people that I'm seeing online who are basically like standing in judgment and acting a little superior because their church is willing to risk meeting together during a Corona during the corona virus outbreak. And, you know, there is no more arrogant way to exist as a Christian than to think that you're better than another Christian who's making a decision that you disagree with, like, there are clear biblical guidelines and then there are the application of those biblical guidelines to real life situations. And I don't want to get too much into this because we're going to talk about it. But no one in existence right now, nobody who is taking potshots at other churches who are meeting right now or are not meeting right now. Nobody has ever been in a situation like we're in right now that is currently, you know, pontificating on this. So just you just shut your mouth like, if your churches meeting and you're happy about that great go enjoy the Lord's day. If you see someone's church who has decided not to meet, then shut your mouth, like it's not the time to to go after another congregation or a person who's made a different decision than you on this one. We're not talking about like, people saying like, well, it's okay to murder people because, you know, prudence like that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a situation that is unprecedented in most of our lives and will probably never happen again. And we're all just doing the best we can. And so we need to bear with each other and love and recognize that others Christians are going to make different decisions, and somebody is probably right and somebody is probably wrong, or both people are wrong. But we need to just bear with each other and love it and support each other as we get through this as we work through this idea.

Jesse Schwamb 20:13
So I think we've just discovered or perhaps identified another classification. Another genius for the denials. And you can file that one under people be crazy. Yeah. Because you're right, what we're talking about here, and I love the entry point for this conversation is not necessarily about why we're canceling with not something I think we're going to talk about, but I love that your denial is focused explicitly on the attitude of others toward that information. Yeah, and this is like the I was thinking this weekend about this. Maybe this is a famous quote now. Something like the internet is everything that you hate about people. Yeah, and it's so true in this case, because I've seen so much vitriol against other Christians, I can't understand this, I just can't understand it because not only do we not we recognize as Christians that we have, like imperfect knowledge, just it's partly our jam, knowing that God is sovereign omnipotent over all things, and that we are small creatures, contingent in our essence in our being. And yet, even in that contingency, which we will recognize in other spheres, here's one where we just want to put people in other churches on blast without knowing anything about the particular circumstances of their actual local communities. And then even beyond that, not being sensitive, or compassionate toward the decisions that are being made. Now we might be able to, we time with better understanding, maybe wanted to debate some of the finer points the way in which we're framing those which is really I think, in part the the purpose of our conversation today, right? But on the face, like the default limit of response, should be loving kindness, especially in a moment of history, where everyone is really struggling to come to terms with what all of this means and the world is just absolutely insane right now. Like you will be crazy. So what we need is, I think overwhelmingly the kind of Christian love that is embracing first that seeks to love and to lean into that with sympathy, rather than like just why would you get on Facebook or Twitter and just go after another church because they're not being

Tony Arsenal 22:18
Yeah. And you know, the people that I see doing it are the people who have basically made their own personal brand identity. Being that crotchety cranky aggressive person like that's, that's the person I'm seeing doing this. And you know, I just don't understand how people think that marking yourself off as like a just a cantankerous person is at all keeping with what it means to be a Christian, who are literally supposed to be known by above all else by our love for one another like that's when Jesus says here's how people are going to figure out that you're my followers. He doesn't say Because you wear a cross necklace, he doesn't say because you have the best theological knowledge or because you are constantly reading Bible verses out loud to people, what he says is, they will know you're my disciples, by the love you have for one another. So when someone marks themselves off and tries to identify themselves, basically as someone as a sheep, who's going to beat up the other sheep until they listen, like that's not Christian behavior, that's not a Christian, that that person is not bearing the mark of Christian discipleship. That doesn't mean they're not Christians, but they're not bearing the mark of Christian discipleship publicly in any sense of the word. So it, it's really frustrating to me when I see that.

Jesse Schwamb 23:40
So let's get after this, then because I have at least a gut instinct that some of what we're seeing at play here is just symptomatic of something that I think happens all the time, but it just picks the particular circumstance with which to manifest itself. And in this case, what I think we're seeing is some people are trying to shoot By their commitment to always being at church and always holding hi the Lord's day, that that somehow takes priority over the fear and the sickness that is all over the globe, right? That's my gut is that that's what I'm trying to emphasize is that really our commitment needs me needs to be to the the order of worship to what happens on the Lord's Day, right? And really, everything else needs to fall underneath that. And what I think is gonna be great about our conversation is we don't necessarily disagree with this sentiment, but its expression in the current time, needs to be understood in light of Christian liberty. So this is actually I think, a really interesting conversation, because this comes up all the time. Like I really feel like this is so ubiquitous, especially reformed circles, where somebody has an axe to grind on what they believe is the the issue that takes primacy of priority over everything, and they're willing to beat people over the head with that issue because it somehow makes it look like I am more rigorous in my faith in the expression of it than you You are and you should submit to this expression.

Tony Arsenal 25:03
Yeah, yeah. And just just to get this out of the way, you know, we joke about being a top 50 healthcare podcast. The reality is that we're not a healthcare podcast, right? I work in the healthcare industry, but I'm not a healthcare provider. I'm not a doctor. I'm not an expert at this, unless Jesse got some secret degree over the weekend where he has become a medical doctor. No, Jesse is not a doctor. He's not a healthcare provider. I'm in a position where I maybe know a little bit more than the average person because of my job. But I'm not a doctor, and I'm not an expert. But the reality of this is, is that this medical situation that the world finds itself in is actually pretty scary. Like this is not the common cold. It's not a flu. Anyone who tells you this is no different than the flu is telling you something that's not true. This virus is 10 times a conservative estimates say five to 10 times more lethal than influence. For the groups that it is affecting it in a in a more like a mortality way. It's more contagious than the average influenza virus. And the reason it's called novel Corona virus is because although there are other Corona viruses out there, this one is brand new. This is unprecedented and nobody on Earth, apart from the people who've gotten it already has ever had this virus or variation of it. So none of us have any sort of natural immune system defense defenses that have been built up against this virus. So this, this really is a situation that is that we shouldn't panic, right? That's true. It isn't. This isn't, you know, the bubonic plague or the Spanish flu, although it could get to those kinds of levels if if people don't take action, but it is not as straightforward as saying this is just a slightly more significant influenza season. It's not that's not true at all.

Jesse Schwamb 26:58
And there is a testament Within this to be preached to be shared, right, there is a place for the church to continue to meet when it's appropriate to do so and safe to do so. And there is a way in which we continue to show love toward one another that has some sense of geographic and physical proximity. All those things I think we're trying to say, are possibly embedded in your decision, but it's this how do we understand is it reasonable to make the decision to not meet on the Lord's Day, given these circumstances? That's kind of I think, the question we want to try to answer.

Tony Arsenal 27:30
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it goes without saying, but I'm going to say it anyways. It's so funny, because anytime you say it goes without saying you always immediately follow it by saying, whatever it goes without saying, Have you noticed that

Jesse Schwamb 27:41
only on this podcast?

Tony Arsenal 27:42
No, no, I think that's pretty universal. Oh, is that everywhere?

Jesse Schwamb 27:45
Is us

Unknown Speaker 27:47
so

Tony Arsenal 27:49
every individual church or in situations where you have a more connectional denominational structure, but every local congregation, led by a plurality of Elders needs to make this decision for themselves. Right? There might be some instances where a regional or national church makes a decision or kind of like, issues a guideline for every church in that denomination. But this is a decision that needs to be made on a case by case basis. Because even though this virus is spreading out and is everywhere, more or less everywhere, it's still impacting local communities in different ways. And so the local situation on the ground has to be taken into account just like this is this is what I don't understand is some of these internet trolls who are like blasting people for deciding not to meet would not blast a church that is in the path of a hurricane for saying we're not going to meet this next Sunday because our church is going to be underwater, right or a church that is in the middle of a blizzard, and people can't physically get to there. They wouldn't bless that church for canceling because nobody can make it to the building or because it's not safe to travel. But for there's something about this situation that makes people not recognize that this is a different kind of natural disaster. But it's still a natural disaster, it's still something happening that may or may not make it physically safe together. And that that is a strange thing to me that people are not able to see that. But because it's not like, I think because it's not like a real threat that you can see and touch with your hands. It's not it's not a storm that you can understand. It's something else, people are not understanding that this is just a physical danger that we have to grapple with.

Jesse Schwamb 29:34
Yeah, you're right. This is a matter of how you perceive the level of magnitude of the risk we're talking about. And so I so this is not purely theoretical for me, because my own church has had to make some of these hard decisions. And I've wrestled with, what are the decisions that are being made, and are they appropriate? And so I think it depends on how unsafe you feel it to be to actually gather together because if you flip the metaphor, or you flip the circumstance, like you just did, even if you make it Let's say less extreme, and you just say it's inclement weather, like a bad ice storm. Probably people would say, well, there's no sense like risking your life right to try to drive around hills or to come down roads that are covered in ice, to cut to the Lord's house on that morning, given that there would be a good chance that might cause you grave danger to do so. Exactly. So again, I think that the emphasis here, and I'm gonna, I want to be charitable, and say that even those online who have come down hard are coming from a place of trying to honor and recognize God as the one who is worthy of worship, the worship that he has prescribed on the Lord's day. And so I think that's where it's coming from. I mean, I'm pretty sure that's where it's coming from. Yeah, we've crossed a line at some point.

Tony Arsenal 30:43
Yeah, yeah. And let me be clear, too. There are those who have made the decision not to cancel and have done so out of the conviction that it would be sinful to cancel for these circumstances. That's not the people I'm talking about because I know People who have come to that conviction and come to that decision and made that decision and have not have still not spent time telling other people about how stupid or dumb or cowardly they are. Yes. So yes. So this isn't so much about which is the right decision, right? Because that it's not that easy. It's not that clear to say this is the right decision, this is the wrong decision. But I want to talk through a little bit about like, Why so I'll put my cards on the table. I'm a deacon in my church. I've said this before. So part of how our church understands the Office of Deacon as I'm responsible as the deacon of the church, for the physical care of the congregation, the property, usually that takes the form of, you know, taking care of the property, sort of organizing the cleaning rotation. If someone is sick, you know, I might help coordinate meals or something like that. But in this instance, it's taking the form of me having to make recommendations to the church about how do we Stay safe as a congregation in the midst of this thing. And so what we talked about today was there may come a time where it makes sense for us to cancel our service for two, three or four weeks, depending on what happens in our local context. We're not there yet, we decided that we're okay to continue meeting for another week, unless something changes between now and then. But we are acknowledging that there may come a time where we decide that it isn't safe. And so I want to lay my cards on the table that that's where my head is at. And and the reason I made that decision, and I'd like us to talk through this a little bit more is that any individual Christian, on any given Lord's day has the liberty to make a decision about whether they're going to attend church or not. And there are some reasons that are bad reasons to choose not to attend church that are not excusable or justifiable reasons. But there is this range of reasons that are justifiable, that no one would look sideways at Say this person is in sin for not attending church. And so we recognize as a whole, that there are these reasons why it might make sense for an individual not to attend church that's within their liberty. But for some reason people don't kind of make that next step to say, therefore, it's within reason for us to understand, it may be wise for everyone collectively to make that same decision about any given Lord's day Sunday. And so you framed it earlier this, this really is a question about Christian liberty, about an application of the fourth commandment and the sixth commandment and in some ways, the fifth commandment to our Lord's Day service, how do we understand what it means to obey the governing authorities? How do we understand what it means to lawfully preserve life? How do we understand what it means to sanctify the Sabbath or love our neighbors? All of that it's tied up in this question. So it it's on one level, it's extremely complex. There's so many different things to think about. But that's the beauty is that the The law has given us the Lord's law has given us clear guidelines to apply to every situation in life. That's why I brought the Catechism earlier is if you look at the Westminster catechisms, either the shorter or the larger, and their reflection on the moral law, there's like, it's like a rubric for filtering through what we do in a situation like this. And different people are going to come to different conclusions, that's understandable. But there still is this wisdom that we've been given by the consensus of the church throughout the history of the church, that that gives us guidance in this situation.

Jesse Schwamb 34:33
And there are different gradations in this. So just by way of respect to the decisions that are being made in local communities, I know some are saying, we do not want to meet on the Lord's day out of love. And I think we'll get to this but there's a framing as well. I think in explaining why Yes, making decisions are important. In other words, you can make the right decision for the wrong reason correct is just as bad but there are some They're saying, well, we don't want to meet. But then there are others that are saying we're going to meet but be sensible people not come if you're sick do not come if you feel like particularly that you're vulnerable to that. So all these things, I think, are in play legitimately. And I'm glad that you couched it the way that you did. Because I don't want anybody hearing us to think that Jessie and Tony are somehow denigrating worship on the Lord's Day, right? It's not what we're saying at all that I think we've been fairly outspoken about that, and basically, every episode we've ever done, but, you know, just in case, we have a strong conviction of this, you know, we're looking at the scriptures, which we find to be very prescriptive when it comes to worship in general, and the Lord's day in particular. And so, in the midst of valuing all those things, of giving it the appropriate weight and the responsibility that it's due, we are still saying yet, where is Liberty? How does and I think this is a question of Covenant honestly, where is the Liberty I play? And to me, what I'm seeing here that's that people are forcing to work out is people are suddenly coming to have to come to terms with the difference between liberty and license, right? And for me, those are our opposite poles. Because true liberty is actually subjection to the law, even though that's a paradox, right? I mean to like the unregenerate mind, imagined, like how many Christian terms sound absolutely crazy. Like when I'm weak, then I'm strong, all these seemingly contradictions, but it must appear foolish to the unbeliever to read or to hear that when a man becomes the slave of Christ, then he is free. So how do we understand what that means in the most practical of realms, like when it comes to a pandemic, and we need to in love, protect our child, each other and ourselves from some kind of serious harm?

Tony Arsenal 36:42
Right? And so I want to go to the Westminster larger catechism and I want to read let me find it here. I want to read question 135. And question 135 says, what are the duties required? In the sixth commandment, and the answer is the duties required in the sixth commandment are all careful studies and lawful endeavors to preserve the life of others of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any by just defense thereof against violence, burying patient, patient burying of the hand of God, quietness of mine cheerfulness of spirits sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor and recreations by charitable thoughts love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness, peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior, forbearance, readiness to be reconciled patient bearing and forgiving them injuries and recruiting good for evil, comforting and suckering securing distressed and protecting and defending the innocent. So if you boil that all down when when the Westminster shorter cows catechisms asking this, they basically say, we're obligated to take all lawful endeavors to preserve our own life and to preserve the life of others. So the only question at this point now with that in mind is, Is it lawful for us on any given Sunday or any given sequence of Sundays? Is it lawful for us to say that we must not gather in order to preserve the life of ourselves and others? And I think, and we can get into this, but we probably won't get into this because you and I agree, but we can talk about it. I think the answer is yes. If, for example, and this is, this is where like, sinking in the extremes helps a little bit. If we were about to meet on the Lord's Day, and the church was on fire, we would not say your story. required to go in to the sanctuary and have the Lord's Day service, we would say for the sake of not harming ourselves and not risking death. You don't have to go into church for the Lord's Day service today. Or if there was a big ice storm or something like that, where it was dangerous to travel, we would say, don't go out of your house, stay home where it's safe. We'll meet again next week or the following week, or whatever it is. So the only question to be asked in light of the sixth commandment is Is it lawful? And and I think it is.

Jesse Schwamb 39:34
Yeah, this comes back to where is the line that everybody draws right? In whatever circumstance you use for what is a risk to your safety? Eventually, people will hit that line. It's just where is it? For some I think they're more naturally kind of predisposed to say like, Oh, this circumstance, I'm drawing the line right at this potential very contagious illness. And others are saying, Well, again, it's kind of out of sight, out of mind. I don't know the risk. I can't see it. It doesn't seem like it. communities, particularly at risk. And so because mine isn't, I'm going to presume that those who draw the line at that particular place, they somehow have a lesser experience or commitment to God, because they're not going to meet and right that is in danger. I mean that that is sinfulness one on one, this sense of like self aggrandizement by saying and elevating yourself even an expression of religiosity over somebody else, because you believe that your conviction is stronger than theirs. I mean, that is a problem. And that's where I think that the the we said this before, but the confessions are helpful because it struck me in what you just read, you know, think about how much is just packed in there a practical application, it is like an explaining a fleshing out and trying to bring some more practical circumstance to what is said in a sixth commandment. And I think maybe there's some who have not thought about the decisions that are being made. Now, in light of that particular command, right, because it is at the bottom line responsibility like that. The the second set of tablets there is with respect to obligation to fellow man right? What is our obligation of fellow man? If we are properly upholding Jesus Christ God the Father, and the Holy Spirit's as the one whom we worship giving him proper place than where and how do we give man proper place because we are giving God proper place. And in obedience, respect man in the in the boys that he should be respected. And we have to wrestle through this stuff in times of sickness, right? what I'm thinking is, if this stuff doesn't matter now, when does it matter? If we're just going to browbeat somebody over a particular sensibility about application, then I think that it's possible we have actually failed to wrestle with how the truth should impact behavior without compromising the truth.

Tony Arsenal 41:48
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that's not to say that there aren't bad reasons in the midst of something like this to just cancel and so, you know, I'm not thinking of any particular church, but You know, I have a wide variety of people that I interact with online. And you know, when when a church has to announce that they're going to cancel a service for any reason. The other thing that's weird about this one is, you know, when there's a physical barrier to getting to church, like it makes sense to us, like, it makes sense why we shouldn't force people to go to church when they physically can't get there. But this is a different kind of physical barrier. And it's hard for us to understand. And so there's this tendency, as people are making this decision to cancel their service. There's this tendency to try to explain why and that's natural, and it's normal, and it's good. But there are a lot of churches that are explaining the reason why it's okay for us to cancel in a situation like this. More or less. And this might be a little bit of an exaggeration, but I don't think it is, in some cases, more or less by saying the fact of gathering and the institutional church don't really matter. And so right it's sort of a matter of indifference. What They're not we actually get together on Sunday or not. And so in this situation, we're just going to choose not to. And and that couldn't be further from the truth. And so those churches that are using that to, to explain why it's okay for us not together on on a Sunday in these weird times that we're in. I don't think they actually believe that that's the first thing. I don't think that there are any institutional organized churches that actually believe that getting together on Sunday is really like an actual matter of indifference. You know, the line that like, well, the church isn't the place it's the people. Well, yeah, it is. That's true. But the people have to have a place together, like the church is not just all the Christians desperately around the country. The church is a particular gathered body of saints. And in order for them to be gathered at all, there's a location to that. And so that's a bad reason to cancel. But on top of that, we're actually when we say that when we articulate the reason why it's okay for us to cancel that way. We We're actually kind of communicating to the church like, well, you don't have to come back, like people will probably, but they don't have to like, yeah, we're the church. So it doesn't really matter if you come on a Sunday or not. And that's, that's what I see that concerns me when I see churches kind of making that justification, because I honestly don't like I said, I don't think they actually believe that. And I think they're reaching for some, some answer as to why it's okay to make this decision. And they don't have the framework in place that the reformed tradition has given us to really explain that question in a proper way or to explain that that reason.

Jesse Schwamb 44:35
I think that's the linchpin. That's the critical part right there. Because I will, I'm just going to totally go all out there and trigger for some, I've seen lots of descriptions in the past couple days for why services have been canceled. And I would, I'm going to say seven out of 10 times, part of the explanation whether that's just provided like a nice bomb because this is a sore time, or whether it's because that's what they actually believe is that the church is just a building. And really, it's not entirely necessary that we gather here we did it. But when circumstances dictate that we to do otherwise, we don't lose that much right and replace it with technology, we can forego it altogether. We can make do with some type of suitable substitute. Yeah, I've seen a lot of that. And I think what's interesting is there's a purifying effect. There's a litmus test that's happening with this virus in that it is forcing churches to articulate or at least to understand or to think about why it is they meet, and what would cause them not to meet. And so I think there are like two distinct groups, you have churches that are having a conversation we're having in summer a falling on the side of where there's a liberty in our Christian expense expression in the covenant through Jesus Christ, that allows us to make this decision in good conscience without compromising the Lord's Day. Exactly. Then there are those on the other hand that I think are saying, you know what, it's really great to get together. But if we if there's something that's like, serious that prevents us it's so Yeah, I don't need to worry about it because again, the church is this nebulous body, and it can be separated from one another. And we'll find a way to get out the information that we need to right. And of course, like when, you know, people can hang out the Country Club, or they can go somewhere else and relax as well, right? It's not really necessary. So I think it's true that we enjoy the greatest spiritual freedom, when we're actually most in subjection to God's law. Right. And I want to just bring a passage from Psalm into this real quick as kind of a way to kind of shape like where my mind has been, as I thought this through and some 119 4345 and take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth from my hope is in your rules. I will keep your law continually forever and ever. And I shall walk in a wide place, for I've sought your precepts. So the natural man imagines that to be subject to God's precepts is to be confined to this narrow place, but I love that where the psalmist emphasizes here is that The mind illuminated by the Holy Spirit will acknowledge I've seen a limit to perfection. But your commandment is exceedingly broad. Yeah. And that's someone 1996. When I look at that verse Well, I remember first reading that many years ago, and thinking, like when I read Actually, my mind had superimposed it, because it seems like we should be saying, there is a limit to your commandments. But perfection is exceedingly broad. And it's actually the other way around. I think this actually gives us some sense of a road, no pun intended to walk in with these types of decisions that to have the greatest spiritual freedom is to be subjected to God's law, the person that's sold out to God's law can make these decisions in good conscience, cooperating with the sixth commandment, and still honoring the Sabbath for what it's intended for. So I think that like this is these are hard times. These are hard conversations, because it forces us to go into that kind of deep understanding as opposed to just saying, Well, you know what, the church is not the building right? That is just that's the wrong reason to cancel.

Tony Arsenal 48:06
Yeah, yeah. And I think you're exactly right that this is this is causing you know, ideally it's causing churches to think deeply about why it is we gather together on the Lord's day. And, you know, again breaking everything into two kinds of people is is a heuristic device but it's not always accurate but there really there basically is two positions here right there's the churches that are saying yeah it's not that big of a deal to not gather because it you know, it doesn't really matter all that much. And then there's the churches that are kind of agonizing over the fact that like, we may not be able to gather and and I'm gonna get real like real personal here like real straight up is. This situation with Corona virus has been really really hard on me on a personal level, because you know, I work in the medical world Our institution has active coronavirus that we're trying to deal with our community. You know, Dartmouth Hitchcock is one of the only significant health care providers in our region. So we know that if there's a huge outbreak, like it's on us, like where the where the medical resource for the region. And so honestly, every day for the last two weeks, I've had to get up, I've had to sort of psych myself up to go into work, and it feels like going into a war zone. And today, you know, I mentioned before that I have the privilege of praying in front of the congregation. And today I like broke down as I was praying. And the the part that got me was that the Lord's Day, this gathering of God's people, is one of the few true moments of rest that most of us get in a week. Like we don't really understand what rest is. But this this is rest gathering with the Lord's people feasting on the Word of God being ministered to by the Holy Spirit in the presence of God's people. Rest. And so the thought of taking that away, even for good reasons for a time is a heavy, weighty discussion that has to happen. And so there's there are churches that are giving the impression that they're like, yeah, we'll just cancel because it's not that big of a deal. And to be honest with you, there are churches where that's the truth. Like, yeah, you know, our our staff had to work really hard last week because it was Holy Week. So we're going to take a week off. Like, that, like physically pains me like it hurts my heart to not like I'm having a heart attack, but like, it hurts me to think about God's people in those congregations, basically being told, like yeah, the Sabbath isn't that important? This this, this oasis of rest in the middle of your dark world? You know, what is the first chapter of Colossians he says that Christ has transferred us from the God has transferred us from the kingdom of darkness. You into the kingdom of his beloved son. Right on, he's changed our citizenship. And right now, we actually still reside physically amongst the kingdom of darkness, right, we still are present in this wicked generation in this dark world. And the Lord's Day worship is supposed to be this foretaste of the eternal rest that we're going to have. That's what it is. It's where we get a glimpse of the country that we ultimately will reside in, in this kingdom of God's beloved son. So to say that for a time, we have to, for the sake of safety for the sake of, of taking every lawful effort to preserve our own lives and the lives of others. To say that we're going to abstain from that for a time should hurt us, it should be a serious decision, and we should not we shouldn't feel good about it. Even if we acknowledge that it's right and necessary. It shouldn't. feel good. And the impression I'm getting from a lot of churches is like, yeah, you know, we can just, you know, the pastor can just videotape his sermon in his living room, and then we can watch it at your convenience. It's going to be great. You can do go to church in your pajamas. And I'm like, this is this is totally missing the point of, of the gravity of the situation. And I just want us to think deeply about that. And to, if anything, we should come out of this, the churches that have had to cancel, we should come out of this. And we should feel like, Oh, I'm so glad. Like, I'm so glad that I can join with the saints again on Sunday. I'm so glad that I can gather with God's people again on Sunday. And and it was so awful to not be able to do it. I miss my family so much. And it just feels like a lot of churches, right. Yeah. You know, it's no big deal.

Jesse Schwamb 52:47
Yeah, one of the things I tweeted this week because my heart and yours were certainly knit together is I tweeted, if you feel like you need a holiday, the good news is that the Lord's Day is coming. Yeah. And that's really where I was at. And I think everybody was feeling beaten down. People are trying to secure meats, and toilet paper, apparently. And even little things in a country where we're so spoiled by creature comforts and ease of access to nearly everything we want at any time that we want, has given people reason to pause and think, oh, my goodness, everything I rely on is coming crashing down. Like I've really thought about this, because I've seen people to an intense degree, exhibit anxiety. And if you think about the fact that for most of us take advantage or take for granted that our health is strong or reasonably strong. Most of us take advantage of the fact that we have as much wealth as we could possibly need. Most of us take advantage of the fact that we're able to work in our jobs and that we're able to make sure our children are well cared for. And in a unique time, all of that is coming crashing down at the same time. Yeah, people's wealth is being eroded in the markets. People are suddenly concerned that they're not able to protect their health. There's Nothing that they can do about it, schools are closing so that parents are going to have to make accommodations for the children's means that they're not going to be able to go to work, because they literally cannot be there. And so all of these things are mounting up. And any one of those things falling by itself would cause the whole house that pillar crumbling to, you know, be kind of a skew to at least exhibit some kind of, you know, potential for falling down and yet all this stuff at once. And so I was thinking exactly what you were, especially for the Christian, dude, don't you need a holiday? Yeah. And that's what the Lord's Day is, in all the ways that you just described it. A meeting together is part of that expression. And yet at the same time, this is where the depth of the conversation must come into play. And that is to be in Christ to be in the covenant community of God, which is, of course, not reflected in a mere building built by men. But that grace that happens when we're in Christ. I want to say as carefully as best as I can And I know you'll correct me if I go off off the mark here. Being in Christ means that there is a way to temporarily and in a way that is sub optimal, honor the Lord's day and honor the commandments by protecting others and being sometimes what's most loving is social isolation in a sense, and still honor the Sabbath in a way that we know is going to be temporary and suboptimal. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.

Tony Arsenal 55:29
Yeah, you know, I wanna I want to be thoughtful about how I say this.

Jesse Schwamb 55:37
Because you're not often thoughtful about what we say on this podcast.

Tony Arsenal 55:40
So the fact of the matter is that even even within the reflections on the fourth commandment that we find in our confessional documents and catechisms there are like exception clauses, right. So the Westminster shorter catechism basically says that On the Lord's day, the way that we sanctify the Lord's Day is by devoting the entire day to the public and private exercises of God's religion, except insofar as we are taken up in the works of charity and necessity, right? Yes. And so so I would actually make the argument. And this is where this is where it gets difficult, because typically, we think about that in terms of individuals deciding or being forced to be away from the Lord's Day worship or to engage in some sort of secular common worldly work in on the Lord's day. But we don't think about that often in terms of what happens if every Christian in a given body is in a circumstance where the act of charity or the act of mercy or the act of necessity, in order to serve our neighbors, is not to go to church. If all of us have that same circumstance, then the act of love the act of charity that allows us to still sanctify the Lord's day, but not be at church that day. If charity is staying home and not getting sick, like staying home and not passing that virus on to somebody else who is more vulnerable than you are. And that's where I think we need to understand this is that whether you're looking at the fourth commandment, which gives us this sort of escape clause, I mean, that's not the best way to think about it. But this exception clause of works of necessity and charity, or mercy, or whether we're looking at the fifth commandment, which would tell us to obey our governing authorities in lawful commands, which the law the government has the right to tell us. Because of God's ordination over them. They have the right to tell us right now, it's really a bad idea for you to go out of your house. Like it's really a bad idea for you to do this or that. That is that's a lawful ordained authority by God who is doing something for our protection. That's exactly what government is there for. Some people would argue that and they would also say that government shouldn't build roads, but that's a different question, right or whether we're looking at the sixth commandment of preserving your life in the life of others, like, this is just the right thing to do, I think to say in situations like this, where you have active, you know, contagious disease in your community, to tell everybody to stay home and say, we wish we didn't have to, we wish that we could gather on the Lord's day because it's really important. But in order to preserve our lives in order to to sanctify the Sabbath, this act of charity, this act of love for our neighbors is necessary. So we have to make this decision. I really think that's the way it has to go for a lot of churches.

Jesse Schwamb 58:35
So here's something that I'd say a lot, and I'm just gonna say it again as it metabolize.

It's do I think nobody had let me know yet? That's something I say. There is something to be said about trying to understand like the purpose behind the precept. And I think that's what of course, the confessions help us to do it a little bit better. Yeah. And that's something that is people were just prone not to do which is, it's just easier to say, you know, the Bible says it, I believe it, I'm gonna do it right without respect to trying to understand if God is big enough, if he is over all of creation, and he's given us all that we need for life in the scriptures in terms of direction, then that means because life is messy and complicated and nuanced and complex, then that word of law should also be able to cover over all those circumstances allow us enough room to breathe into maneuver, while still honoring him. And I guess my issue is that either we end up with churches, that slight this law by saying things like, it's just a building. I mean, it's not it's all it's not more than a building and we don't need to get together. And then there are others that say like, well, we have to at all cost, right at the cost of actually being honoring and perhaps reflecting what's written, like you said in the sixth commandment, because, of course, the commandment to not murder or to not kill is not just in don't take other people's lives but also promote the health and well being of everyone. Yeah. And so that's the thing that I think we are Forget. But by way of kind of a quick example, one of the things I've been thinking about is, you know, in was a Second Samuel six. So when David is bringing back the ark, and that's, of course, the whole passage where God strikes ooza because the ark while it's being cared for by the oxen they stumble, he puts out his hand to touch it right if to stabilize it, and God burns with anger. What I find interesting is that scripture makes it clear and I think we're also trying to emphasize this, that worship always comes with a prescription and a conscription. There's always something that where it's being bound to direction, and it is the opposite of chaos. And so we're acknowledging that God everywhere in the scriptures gives this kind of direction, but we need to be careful not to miss the purpose behind those precepts. What it means that based on God's explaining in this example, for instance, is that there is a method in a manner that is prescribed. That's why This occurs it's not just because God is holy, which he is. And he's trying to find a way to lash out and express his holiness because it's been disrespected. It's more than that. It's because he'd given his people the proper procedures to transport the ark. Right? And they didn't. And so it's both a disrespect of God, because if you respect him enough and honored his holiness, we would say, let's do it the way that God has said. And so what we're saying here is we want to do things the way God has said, and we want to cancel, so to speak for all the right reason, right. And so I think there are good reasons to cancel. And at the same time, I think what you said is what I was tremendously helpful. And that is, if we wake up on the Lord's Day, and there is a part of us, an unrepentant part of us, that says, I'm just really glad for a day off from having to be at church, then we ought to examine why we feel that way. Yeah, because we've we've missed the point of the cancellation, then yeah, because if there's any part have us that just says it's nice to have the time back to have the freedom, then I don't think we're approaching this from the perspective that is concerned about the purpose behind the precept, which is to honor God to love others. almost went into a catchphrase for another podcast,

Tony Arsenal 1:02:16
which you've done before,

Jesse Schwamb 1:02:19
which I've done before on this one as well. But like, is that make sense? Like, or are we writing this? Like, is that kind of is that where you're coming

Tony Arsenal 1:02:25
from on this? Yeah, I mean, I think you and I are on the same page, as we typically are, is, God has given us the Lord's Day, as a blessing, right? The Sabbath is not a man was not made for the Sabbath, the Sabbath was made for a man. And part of that blessing is the recognition in the law of God, that there are times where for for particular reasons God has authorized us not to participate in that blessing. And and the only question that we face now is Is the preservation of life in this unprecedented scenario that we've never been in? Is that does that fit the description of one of those exempt? Yes, if you will, right. And the conclusion I'm coming to is it absolutely does. It absolutely is a work of charity for each individual person in the church to abstain from attending church on a particular Sunday, where this added infection is active in your community. And that may be a couple Sundays in a row. You know, God willing, it's not more than a few because, again, we should we should feel the loss of the Lord's day. And what's really interesting is occasionally I'll talk to there's there's a couple different kinds of people that I talk to you. I occasionally will talk to people who have a job that it like over the Road Truckers this happens with a lot where they have a job that keeps them away from the Lord's Day worship on a regular basis. Those people tend to not actually seem like it bothers them that much. And that that gives me little hint that that's probably not the kind of job that God had in mind when he says while work of necessity or charity, right, but when you talk to someone like an ER doctor, or a nurse who does have a legitimate job that that's described as a job of necessity, or of mercy or charity, and they talk about how it impacts them to be absent from the Lord's people on a Sunday morning, you can most the time, you can tell that there's a sense of loss in their, in their decision to be absent, in that their necessity to be absent. And you're exactly right. If If your church cancels, and you wake up, and the first thing you think is like, Oh, it's so nice that I get to just sort of stay home today, like your heart is in the wrong spot. And that's something that you really should grapple with. So I mean, I think I think that this is such a new, tricky situation that none of us have had to be in we need to show grace to each other. And I'm glad that we were able to have this conversation because I think you know, as I've reflected on this as I've talked to other deacons and elders around the country that I know this is a cent. This is a situation that we're all wrestling with. And as leaders in the church in official capacity, like myself or in other forms of leadership, it's a hard decision to make to suggest to the church that we don't meet. Like there's a sense for a lot of us that we're doing the wrong thing by making that recommendation. And, and I hope that it's encouraging to people who are in similar roles or who are in decision making capacity or influential positions in their church. I hope that this is encouraging to them, to give them a framework to say to their church or to their pastor, or even maybe to their own families. Maybe they make their decision for themselves on a given Sunday, to encourage them to say it's okay, like it's alright to make this decision. As much as it hurts and it feels bad. It's still an okay. It's an acceptable decision to make,

Jesse Schwamb 1:06:01
right. And I'll be candid, I felt like it was the wrong decision. And I think that was my visceral response to wanting to make sure that the testimony of God's people remain strong in light of and with respect to sensitivity that it should be voluntary. Like there's some that shouldn't attend because they might be particularly vulnerable or because they were sick. I'm not saying gather everybody together in an unsafe right, or haphazard kind of way. But it's this very thing that we can't trust God himself and a word of law that he's given to us to cover over these types of situations and give us real guidance, right in a real like, strong confident discernment. Then what can it be counted on for Yeah, this is exactly time when you had the most when we should be exercising the most Liberty but not license and again, this is a wonderful time because I think it forces people to reconcile with both things. And the last thing is, we all make mistakes, I think with respect to honoring the Sabbath, honoring the Sabbath, Because we recognize it to be such a serious and solemn responsibility means that we're going to have a lot of emotionally charged opinions about it. And some of those will be wrong because as human beings, we tend to live in the extreme position on the tails, rather than in a place of grace and mercy. Right. So I think of people like Jonathan Edwards, who said, you shouldn't smile laugh on the Sabbath, which I'm breaking right now, apparently, but according to his standard, and I'm thinking on this day in 2020, don't we need a little smiling and laughing on the Lord's Day, no mindless of God's goodness and grace, the light of His loving kindness, we need that. Yeah. So we're all going to be products of our time. And because of this, we need so much more to desperate lion Christ, like if we believe that to be a Christian is to be in Christ, than somebody who just had the rest of that and say, there's nothing I'm doing even in trying to be good in exercising and disciplining myself, to obey that even that falls short, of course, allowing me to actually earn anything Kind of merit in favor? Yeah. And so get off Twitter, get off Facebook if you're tempted to really put somebody on blast, and think about what it means to be in Christ, how that should give us more liberty in our expression of our Christian faith in a way that honors God and loves others. Yeah.

Tony Arsenal 1:08:15
Yeah, well, that that I think is a good place to end. Jessie. I'm not gonna lie. I'm super excited for our next episode.

Jesse Schwamb 1:08:25
I'm excited to

Tony Arsenal 1:08:26
and I know that it's going to be a good one because we already recorded it, and it was a good one. So please, everyone, join us next week for our new or for our exciting surprise episode. It's gonna be great. It sounds

Jesse Schwamb 1:08:41
like what you there's you like you just like slip something but you didn't because you said like our new nothing new is happening. The Armenian brotherhood, it's not a degree turn.

Tony Arsenal 1:08:52
No, that was just a slip of the tongue. But but it is gonna be an excellent episode. Or it is an excellent episode. I don't know. Know how we say it, but

Jesse Schwamb 1:09:01
oh it is I feel like we missed an opportunity to make it look like we were super patient and just give like a bunch of predictions for where's that happen? No, no, no, no, no,

Tony Arsenal 1:09:11
no. Anyway we've gotten into that not sure how to how to wrap it up mode.

Jesse Schwamb 1:09:19
Oh yeah, this plane is is faltering it's just flying around in circles waiting for somebody to bring it

Tony Arsenal 1:09:24
down. Yeah, well, I'm gonna do it. So Jesse Till next time, honor everyone.

Jesse Schwamb 1:09:29
Love the Brotherhood.