Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Tony and Jesse make massive progress on Reformed Preaching by Joel Beeke, with a discussion of John Bunyan.

Jesse Schwamb 0:10
Welcome to Episode 173 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony and this is the podcasts of brotherly love.

Hey, brother,

Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey, brother, what's going on?

Tony Arsenal 0:33
Not much, man. How are you?

Jesse Schwamb 0:36
back and while you're living and I muskies opportunity to go sneak right into my denial which I'm going to, at the end try to turn around into something that's a little bit more favorable. But yeah, so we recorded last week. And you know, I think our motto is in the regular principle of podcasting can't stop won't stop. So, but I was like at the end of the podcast last week, like feeling horrible. When I went back and listened to it a little bit, which I don't always do, I was like, man, my voice sounds horrible. And so that was like the beginning of the end and this past week, and somehow made it through the podcast, then had a crazy fever. And then later in the week, when it didn't go away when got tested, and they were like, yo, you got the flu. And I was like, Yeah, I mean, I got something going on. I just need some help here. Yeah. And the doctor who I saw, she said to me, did you get the flu shot and I was like, like, very sheepishly because I was embarrassed that point. I said, No, oh, I wouldn't have mattered anyway. She's seeing everybody who's still got it. She's like this the strain at least in this particular area that we're getting is nothing like the one that you know that the guests and choose one yeah, it's time. And so I guess it's it's not the case. But yeah, I haven't had like a crazy fever in a long time. So it was like a super adventure and like just trying to do normal things because there was a time where I was like, I feel like my brain is not working. It just wasn't working.

Tony Arsenal 2:01
Yeah. Yeah, you know, get your flu shot people. I don't, I don't care what the doctor says about this one not working. Because here's what happens, right is is, if not enough people get the flu shot and the flu starts to circulate around. That's when it starts to mutate. And that's when people start to get the flu who already got the flu shot? So there there is the fact that they have to, like guess at a strain and sometimes they get it wrong. But also if not enough, people get it it mutates and that's part of why people still get the flu later in the season. But yeah, man the flu is no it's no joke.

Jesse Schwamb 2:41
No, I haven't been that Ill in a while. And I was actually at some points like surprised at how awful I felt because I felt like I was being a super baby about the whole thing. Yeah. And we You and I were talking about this just before record and this is where the denial I guess comes in, is this is one of those quintessential slap this in the traditional category of Jesse's now Going against the fall, and sin and how that affects our bodies. It's all of that. But it's like that to another degree from what i've denied before, because as we were just talking about, the flu is so dangerous because your body is trying to destroy it, and your body will literally try to destroy itself. Yeah, in an effort to make sure that it kills all of the virus. So of course, like when you have a crazy high fever or something like that, that's what's trying to do, but there's all these other awful side effects. But that dysregulation between those things, all those, the fact that it's trying very diligently because it's been fearfully, wonderfully made to combat some kind of invader and yet at the same time as possible because of sin that it's going to do all this irreparable damage to your body in trying to do the very thing it was created to do. So it's just an amazing manifestation of the fall. So I am tonight against the flu, but I want to flip it just slightly and that isn't say, in many ways, though, I fall into my knees this week and thanks God for His goodness and giving us or allowing us rather to experience sickness because For two reasons, at least one is to remind us how good it is and what a blessing it is to feel well. And that to have the juxtaposition of those two things, is a blessing, we ought not to take it lightly. So sickness has in its way, that wonderful reminder that we are contingent beings that we often forget when our health is, is great. The second thing is, it makes us very compassionate. For those who are suffering for those, we often have the benefit of having a season of sickness, but there are some for whom that is really their way of life. Yeah, they're no choice of their own. And so it's a wonderful way both to be reminded of the goodness of God and then to be given a heart that is compassionate toward those who are suffering. So that's my denial, but I'm trying to sneak in maybe a little bit of an affirmation in God's goodness, even in the midst of this in this world.

Tony Arsenal 4:46
Yeah, yeah, that's a good word. But on top of that, just get your flu shots people it's, there's really like no two ways about it. It's, it's, most of the time it's free. It takes like 12 minutes It just do it even if like it doesn't actually help you not get the flu. It doesn't make you get the flu. It doesn't hurt. You know, that's true. Just Just take

Jesse Schwamb 5:08
care of it. Definitely very little reason to not get a flu shot. Again, I don't want to go back to a trope that we've trampled on many times before. But this is why we're one of the top 50 health care podcast charities or whatever. Yeah, it's exactly for pscs like this, like people hear this the medical profession like yeah, this podcast is on point that is really good, have really good theological discussion, but really, the balance that they provide by way of healthcare advice is also exceptional.

Tony Arsenal 5:40
Yeah, I'm expecting another Award nomination after this episode. Who am I? Our emails gonna blow up on Thursday?

Jesse Schwamb 5:48
we're stepping up our game. So yeah, speaking of stepping up games, you want to also drop your denial.

Tony Arsenal 5:53
Yeah. So I'm going to drop a denial please, if you are a snowplow driver, don't take the The wrong way. I've had. I've had a tough time with snow plows this this winter. So we had a storm event on Thursday and Friday. And oftentimes when we have a big snowstorm, you know, we have one tiny car and one SUV that's four wheel drive. And so Ashley and I, my wife, Ashley will carpool and and this time we actually chose to sleep over at mom and dad's house because they're closer to work. The dog could stay during the day that way if we did get stuck, you know, they can take care of the dog and feed her and everything like that. And so I we come home on Friday nights and our car my small car, which was still at the church is plowed in, which is not typically something that's a big deal. Like you just wait and when the plow comes the next day to sort of finish the job, you move the car and they finished the job. Well, they the guy came and he plowed Well, I was gone. I had to like run to the dump do some errands yesterday, and he he came in play Again, unplug my car and even more. But he like normally when they plow, they actually do a really good job of like, getting the rest of the lot, right. It's in the church parking lot. They get the rest of the lot and then there's just this one spot that's not plowed, but he totally like phoned it in. So this morning when we had church, the lot is basically like 75% plowed. So we had to like Tetris, all the cars in to try to even fit them all. And like we don't have a big church we have maybe like, maybe like 10 cars to park in our lot total. And we had to like basically like, Jerry rigged them Tetris in even to get them to fit. So I'm denying against plow snowplow men who only do 75% of the job.

Jesse Schwamb 7:45
Yeah, the struggle if you live in a place where you get any some modicum of snow during the winter is real when it comes to the situation because if you've never been or lived in an area like that, what you just don't realize that snow is one of paws up like super inconvenient, it is a game of kind of like a giant slide puzzle. Yeah, both for like your vehicles if you have one, and then also just like where to put it. And then if you get too much of it, you generally have to move from the place you put it in the first place. And when you're plowing the problem is pretty difficult because you actually have to, like there's a skill to it, right? Like, you know, if you have a really good plow person, because they make it look effortless, and you never have to worry about any of this stuff. But when somebody doesn't do it quite right, you notice because it makes it super inconvenient. And again, it sounds like a super lame complaint. But this just moving like frozen water round from one place to the next is a lot of work. And it is a tremendous amount of coordinated effort.

Tony Arsenal 8:38
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, our pa guys, usually pretty good. And what happens with these these like storms where there's multiple storms in a row, is they'll go out and plow for like 12 hours, and then they'll go home and sleep for four and then they have to go back out. Right. So by the time you get to the end of like the end of a big snow event, these guys have been out like plowing For like 24 hours out of, like 36 hours and so they're they're a little punchy by the end of it. So I'm not like, I'm not really blaming him that he like didn't get the whole thing because like my car was in the way I get it. But like it really does make a difference and it's not cheap to hire a snowplow it's not like no, it's not like a small amount of money. I mean, it's like it's like a couple thousand dollars a year usually to have someone plow and like we live in like, we have a big lot. We can't like there's no way that I can even with a snowblower. There's no way that I could do it myself. So we have to have a plow. But he just I was I was actually like a little surprised because he usually is so onpoint even when we leave a car there, he still usually gets the lot basically done except for that one spot that the cars in. And this time it was really bad. I'll take a picture and send it to you and you'll understand how bad it was. I'm not going to bother showing anyone else because nobody else cares. But it was like it was like really bad. Like it was hard to get our small church worth of people in the lot today. That's how It was

Jesse Schwamb 10:01
that that's a really great representation for this podcast is basically you and I denying things that you know, only you and I can apparently appreciate as denials.

Tony Arsenal 10:09
Yeah. Well, what are you affirming? Let's end it on a positive note.

Jesse Schwamb 10:13
Okay, so I got something that I think is great. And I've been I've been sitting on this pun intended, you'll hear it in a second for a long while, but it's also a super weird affirmation probably coming from me. So I'm just going to go right out off the top here with it. I'm affirming a website called la police gear calm. And I'm neither a police person, nor I haven't had any experience in law enforcement, but a friend turned me on to this site many many years ago. And they have all kinds of amazing and wonderful paraphernalia that they sell. But the thing that I'm particularly affirming with, is they sell amazing pants. So if you go to la police gear, calm look in the clothing section. I can't speak to the ladies pants because I'm Not a lady. But what I really like is they sell these pants called like their cargo pants or like a tactical pants. Yeah, and there may have this amazing material that's like almost indestructible so even though I'm like not doing tactical drills, nor do I work and again in law enforcement, these are great for like hiking working outside, like you can't tear these things. And they have a metal zipper. They have like the, what's it called, like reticulated like knees, they're super flexible, they're really comfortable. And if you are into guns and firearms, they've got like all these like interesting weird pockets for I think, which would be like firearm type stuff. I just use them for like, pens and stuff like that. But I'm pretty sure like you can put knives and stuff in them. So they just make amazing very affordable because the pants or something like the ones I'm looking at right now are $22 and I think they are on sale, but I always get them for about that price. And they're just like these things are indestructible. They're workhorse they're beasts. So especially if I be Outside, or again, I guess if you do like to go hunting, or you're into carrying your weapons on you, the pants are constructed in such a way to allow you to do that. But they're just like amazingly comfortable and really durable. There is I think somewhere on this website a hilarious video of a dude demonstrating how like their prime and made for tactical maneuvers so he's doing like a lot of like crouching and squatting and army crawling and showing how like, it's got like a brass zipper and a brass by and the knees all flex. I was like, okay, that's cool. I just want to like, I'm just going to go like I might have to pick up my keys after I dropped them. That's basically like as much tactical maneuvering as needed to do. But la police gear calm has so much like amazing, affordable, very interesting stuff that I found super helpful and useful. So I figured it's about time for me to bring this up, even though it's probably a very unlikely affirmation for me.

Tony Arsenal 12:53
Yeah, I'm looking at this website right now and I'm looking at a product called la police gear. terrain, flex, slim fit jeans.

Jesse Schwamb 13:03
Yes.

Tony Arsenal 13:04
And it's funny because there's nothing overtly tactical about them. And you can tell that like in the little photos where they're demonstrating the tactical ness of this, that they're really stretching because there's one where they show you like a little secret pocket and what they're putting in it is a handcuff key. They're like, trust us. This is for police. Here's a handcuff key.

Jesse Schwamb 13:29
So that's what makes this such a I think a great affirmation from my perspective is it's it's kind of like I think actually, they call it at some point like urban tactical, yes, this idea of like having clothing that's comfortable that serves like a second purpose but isn't like overtly, like military or law enforcement oriented. So yeah, that's what makes it really unique. So I'm definitely not probably like the target audience for this. But man do I love their pants like the pants just by themselves at that price point are very affordable, and then you throw in that they're like, super comfortable and Yeah, like maybe I don't have a handcuff key but I don't know like, maybe want to throw some guitar picks in that bucket say go. Yeah, there's lots of lots of different things we could do with those pants.

Tony Arsenal 14:09
I'm also looking at the LA PG w 900 flashlight, which has a turbo mode of 900 lumens. And you can you can flash that bad boy at 900 lumens for four hours. Wow, that that will blind a bear. I know. This is a lot.

Jesse Schwamb 14:32
Yeah, that's I'm actually surprised that the could stay lit for four hours. I feel like we just explode or just melt under the heat.

Tony Arsenal 14:39
Yeah, that's crazy. You can also do strobe at 900 lumens, which will pretty much kill a man. It's crazy.

Jesse Schwamb 14:48
I'm telling you. There's so much great stuff on this site. And if you're a person like I am that's also into like backpacks and stuff. They have a whole backpack section. That's pretty, pretty awesome. But again, a lot of it is geared Sword firearms. So again, if you're, if you're listening this right now and you're like, Listen, I'd like to wear a pair of pants to my office, but I am tired of strapping my firearm to myself with my appropriate concealed permit. I'd rather have just a pair of pants where the pockets already built in. And then also maybe something for a handcuff key here. Yeah, la police here.

Tony Arsenal 15:24
They also sell something called a Blackhawk fanny pack. They have a fanny pack section on the la police gear website. They have a fanny pack collection.

Jesse Schwamb 15:37
Listen, apparently, you need a fanny pack sometimes. If you're I do appreciate that. There's some smart marketing happening there because I think the only way you could get me to look at a fanny pack is if you named it the Black Hawk fanny pack because I'm thinking, Wow, it's got to be like a legit fanny pack. That's like the thing you see while people are power walking. That's something That is being used in serious tactical maneuvers.

Tony Arsenal 16:03
That's true. That's true. It's good stuff. That's a good recommendation.

Jesse Schwamb 16:07
Good. Well rescue rescue us from this affirmation that just went into so many directions

Tony Arsenal 16:12
it did. So I have an affirmation that requires a little bit of audience participation.

Unknown Speaker 16:17
So from me,

Tony Arsenal 16:18
from everyone from our audience, I'm affirming something called Discord. Have you ever heard of this?

Unknown Speaker 16:26
No. How's it spelled? just like it sounds. It's just the word.

Tony Arsenal 16:30
It's just the word Discord. There's no special pun involved in it.

Jesse Schwamb 16:33
So that was a pun.

Tony Arsenal 16:34
No, discord is a originally started off as like an online gaming chat room like a voice server. So a lot of times if you're playing like an online game, you have to have some sort of other server to do voice chats like World of Warcraft, for example. You might have a room where you're kind of talking to the people you're playing the game with, instead of trying to type while you're fighting monsters, you can just talk But it's kind of like morphed into just a general voice chat service where you have servers that you do this. So we I have started a reformed brotherhood Discord server. And so I'm affirming this service and the audience participation point is that everyone needs to go and join the server. And along with the discord server, I've also started something on a website called caravan.ca, which is like a book club service that utilizes discord servers, and I've got a reading club setup for reform preaching by jobi key which we're going through today. And then also a reading club for Institute's of the Christian religion, which I'm reading through this year, and some other people have joined. So you can go on here it's a place where you can chat about the books you're reading we can you can have real time chat either through tax like typing through text or through voice, you can put it on your phone so you can actually like just jump into the server like you're talking on your phone. So check it out. I'll put a link in the show notes for the the discord server but Got discord, I think you should be able to search for reformed brotherhood and find it. But there's also a link up in our Facebook group as well. So check it out. I'm affirming discord, specifically the reformed brotherhood Discord server.

Jesse Schwamb 18:15
And so this is something you can also use to chat about video games.

Tony Arsenal 18:20
Yeah. So like if you and I were playing Mario Kart, although I don't know why we would need to talk to each other. We're playing Mario Kart, like if we were playing Mario Kart, and we wanted to talk to each other, instead of having to type what's going on, we can just talk through the service. So you

Jesse Schwamb 18:34
can chat in real time,

Tony Arsenal 18:36
right? Yeah, it's like it's like a voice service. So like, it became more popular in like, tactical RPGs, or like online role playing games, where like, if we were playing more of the Warcraft, and we were going to fight a big boss together, you might have 15 different people that you have to try to coordinate a strategy with. And in the middle of a battle if you're trying to like shift the strategy or change someone's role, rather than trying to type that. Well. Your also trying to fight the monster, you just have this voice service where you can talk to each other like in real time as the games going on. But you have to kind of do that separate from the game. Otherwise it likes the game down. So there's all these different services that cropped up. And discord is the one that became like, the sort of the premium or like the premiere version of it. It used to be that you'd have to have like your own server setup. But discord has that service all taken care of you literally just log in and create a channel in it. It takes care of all the technical end of it.

Jesse Schwamb 19:31
And every day is a school day on the reform brother.

Tony Arsenal 19:34
Yes, yes. Yes. So that's what I'm affirming. join up. Check it out. It'll be great.

Jesse Schwamb 19:39
I love it. Well, speaking of this ongoing theme of learning things, and it being a school day and school does come with books. We are as you said, still making our way through reform preachin by Dr. Joe beaky will be making our way through this book for some time. So again, come on, get on, therefore, I'm preaching train. It's still never too late and one of the great Things we keep saying about this book is the chapters are somewhat encapsulated. So you can pick it up and join us in where we're at right now, and I think still get so much out of it. And yeah, to that end, we're looking at chapter 13. And this chapter is in a series about Puritan preachers. And it's all about john Bunyan, and I'm actually really excited that we're finally at j bond.

Tony Arsenal 20:22
Yeah, I don't know if he would like to call him Jay bug. But yes, yeah, one of the things that I think is so cool about this, as I was reading is every everybody or most most Christians, particularly reformed Christians, who have been reformed Christians for any period of time, like any length of time, have either heard of or read Pilgrim's Progress, read part of it or heard it referenced in a sermon, or something. But most people so most people are familiar with Bunyan in terms of that element of it. Maybe they've read grace abounding to chief of sinners, which is like his autobiography of his life. But most people are not familiar with him as a preacher. did a little bit of study in seminary on Bunyan because I had a course on English Puritanism. So I know a little bit about him as a as a preacher. But it was exciting to sort of read through this and learn a little bit more about his own style, his emphases and kind of what we can learn. So I think it's a great chapter to sort of look at to say, you know, there's these kind of big heroes of the faith that we think we know, and we probably only know one element of them. So we should take the time to learn the rest of it, because it really kind of, like, flushes out the rest of Bunyan's life. And I think gives some insight even into like, as you read Pilgrim's Progress, or if you you know, you read like some of his other works and helps you understand those works a little bit more clearly.

Jesse Schwamb 21:42
Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up that way, because my thought was that this chapter proves the worth of this book, if only for that reason, because it's trying to bring to light some things that we often don't spend much time thinking about. Blending is kind of like almost a caricature of his own self, but it's because we've made him that way. And so I actually Make the contention that he is the most underrated Puritan preacher. Because Yeah, we usually think of him as the storyteller. And we know very little on the injustice because we haven't invested a lot of our own time to understand more of what he said. So even before we get to talking about him, I want to piggyback on something you just said, and throw this out. There is kind of like a challenge to people. If you haven't read Pilgrim's Progress, just do it. Like there's no reason to wait anymore. Just do it. And you're going to pick it up and especially pick up the one written the original language, it is going to be tough to read through, but it is worth it. And I would encourage you to labor through it, actually. And really try take your time to understand what he is doing in the story. And the characters and allegories that he's using. It's worth wrestling through, if only because so many people speak about it. But what I found is that there's actually a very few people have taken the time to actually read it and try to metabolize it. So this is a great excuse, just jumping. It's a very short volume anyway, but it's a great reason to just pick it up. If you haven't done it already. The other thing getting into bunya and I was struck by is, we spent a lot of time in this book, looking at examples of men. For example, one of Bonnie's contemporaries, john red boots. Oh, and we've looked at a lot of people like john Owen. And in their life, what we've seen as they've come to the discipline of preaching, they've come by way of a lot of immense intense learning, they had a natural ability or skill set. And then they were trained in a formal, very formal way that was of kind of a rigorous nature. What we find interesting about Bunyan and this is basically the exact opposite, that here's a man who got used mightily in his preaching. And yet, even by his own admission, I think there was some sense of his own life that he was not like his other contemporaries, right. They his education. His experience, basically was his education. He didn't have that kind of formal training. And yet still here was a heart that was not only on fire, but God used in a way to bring about the Word powerfully in such a way that was as if he had all of that formal training.

Tony Arsenal 24:04
Yeah. And one of the things that Becky points out that I've always thought was interesting and, and this wasn't new to me, but it was it was interesting to read is Bunyan actually began to regularly preach from his pulpit before he himself even experienced the assurance of salvation in his own like subjective experience. And it was actually through that preaching that he kind of came into more of an assurance of salvation, which is not typical. And and one of the things that I think it bears saying, as we as we read some of these figures, is that just because someone like Bunyan or like Spurgeon comes to mind, just because someone like this exists, where they haven't done the learning, they haven't studied, you know, in our day and age, you might say like, well, they don't have an MD or they haven't been to seminary, just because someone like that exists doesn't mean that That those things aren't important or necessary, or should be, you know, some people say like, well, Spurgeon didn't have an M div. So nobody needs an M div. Like, that's not a good way to look at it. So so I think that's important to call out here. And this element of him beginning to preach before he even was a shirt of salvation himself. Like, in his own experience, it's the same thing like you shouldn't put a new convert up on the up on the pulpit and tell him to preach just because there are john Bunyan's and Charles Spurgeon is out there, who were amazing preachers who faithfully posited the word without having been converts for very long and without any formal training. Just because these people exist doesn't mean that they set the tone or the they're the ones that set the bar in terms of experience or education.

Jesse Schwamb 25:47
Right. I agree with you. This exception is not the rule of life with respect to how preaching ought to be. And I think part of the reason why perhaps God if I can understand the situation even remotely well allow Something like this is because you know that warning given so there might not be a puffing up. I think what's unique about Bunyan is that he was literally in many ways surprised that anybody would even listen to him in this. Yeah. So here's a guy that was not at all going in preaching the gospel because he was, in some way trying to elevate himself or this was his moment of self fulfillment or self aggrandizement. That's what struck me is that here's a man that was so humble, so undone and by the weight in the glory of God, that He almost reluctantly went, and I love this quote that you were kind of talking about in page 224 of the text, where but it says, I went myself and changed to preach to them in chains, and carry that fire in my own conscience that I persuaded them to be aware of. So here's got using a man and he really unique in particular way that still really under the burden, the weight of the law. And he's so under that way, so humbled that he came, anybody would listen to him. And so it's almost like there is no His own life God is bringing out a balancing such that he's able to use him for a time and a season to really speak in this particular kind of way. Because he himself is undone by it and so and done by it, that there's no possibility that he's going to become prideful in it.

Tony Arsenal 27:14
Yeah. Yeah. And this kind of marks I don't have we talked about any of the Puritans yet. I don't think we have that we're really experiencing the persecution of Elizabethan England, the way that Bunyan has at least, I don't know, there been any prison preachers. I mean, there's been some that were ejected from their ejected from their pulpits and had to go and preach in the fields. But Bunyan is unique, at least among the people we've read so far, certainly not unique among the Puritans as a whole, but among the ones we've read about so far, in that he's he suffered under pretty significant persecution for his preaching. So he was arrested on more than more than one occasion. I think he had two imprisonments. The first one was relatively short and the second one was much longer and much more difficult. And so we have to sort of think about Bunyan. You know, when you study Bunyan, you have to sort of think about his pre imprisonment work and his post in prison work. Pilgrim's Progress was in it written a lot of it was written while he was in prison. I mean, he didn't have a lot of time, or he didn't have a lot to do. He did some work that earned a small amount of money to support his family. But he he was very productive, even within his persecution, even within his imprisonment, probably brick because of it. He was shaped and driven to preach and proclaim the gospel in a way that again, like you and I probably can't really think about the fact that like, what would it even mean to be so in love with preaching the gospel, that you would abandon I mean, abandons not the right word, but you would be willing to forsake your family and and sort of be forced to leave them to fend for themselves in order to continue preaching the gospel. That is a man of faith and sometimes that seems like almost a cowardly act like what about your family shouldn't Take care of your family. But for Bunyan and for Bunyan's wife, like Bunyan's wife was on board with this, from what we can tell his his focus and his passion was the verbal preaching of the gospel, regardless of the consequences, regardless of what it may cost him. This is what he did. And in that tour at him, like it was difficult for him, he looked at it in it, it hurt him that he had to deal with the fact that he was apart from his family. He had a blind daughter, he had four children, and his wife was trying to support them. And yet he still was willing to give all of that up in order to faithfully preach the gospel.

Jesse Schwamb 29:32
Yeah, there's a special understanding that he had in that role. And that's one of the things that also blew me away about how big he was describing him because he notes that in 1660, he was arrested on the charge of preaching without a license from the king. That charge resulted in him being thrown into prison for 12 and a half years. Yeah, and during that period of time, there wasn't any small number of opportunities by which those who are as oppressors said to him, you don't even have to return And we're just telling you, if you will say you will not preach, you can walk out the door, that that's all it takes, at any given time for you to be free. And he refused to do it because he said for him, basically, preaching was breathing that he was so far under compulsion, that there'd be no possibility that he wouldn't end up back in prison again. So here is a man that is coming out of this school of preaching, but the classroom itself is in the prison cell. And he's so well acquainted with, imagine all of the temptations, the sins and the fears that he would experience by way of having this unique kind of imprisonment, which is basically, you know, as we talked about it almost self imposed in the sense that like, he does have a family whom he loves, he limits that he's not there for them, especially his young daughter. And he knows that at the same time, it's impossible for him to say that he will not preach the gospel. Yeah. And so when he writes these words, when he writes Pilgrim's Progress from this heart, I think it's easy to look at some of those books and to say, well, the These are really good ideas. They're strong ideas on their own. But to know that they have been actually fire tested before they hit the page is something that I think is unique to his type of preaching. And you see that in one particular place that he keeps drawing it out. And some place that you've already noted is that he talks about the preacher, as God's author, authorized spiritual guide. These three words really were something that really kind of great important to me, this chapter, authorized spiritual guide, and beaky quotes from in pilgrims progress. This scene in which the pastor has been described, and I don't want to spoil it, though it This book has been out for a long time. But

Tony Arsenal 31:41
spoiler alert on a book that was written in the 1600s Yes, spoiler alert earlier but

Jesse Schwamb 31:46
but this scene is so vivid in my mind the way skypes I don't want to ruin it for anybody or take away from it. But basically, they're looking at the characters and looking at a picture an oil painting of a pastor and one of her marks. This is The work of the pastor is his work to know and unfold dark things to sinners. So this idea that here is been in who himself there physically was in a dark place. And yet the role of the pastor the preacher is to somehow going to see something that is not yet illuminated by God's grace is illuminated and to shine light on it. So this idea again, he's a very, he's masterful with language, and there's a lot of precision. It's like he's using a scalpel here to take away and what he's saying here is this unfold dark things to sinners. I think it's a very profound statement about who a pastor is and what he ought to be doing.

Tony Arsenal 32:38
Yeah, yeah, that scene in, in pilgrims progress in interpreters house, I think is one of the most beautiful I mean, I'll be honest, I haven't read the entirety of pilgrims progress, because it is it is just a really hard book to get through. I think I laid my eyes over every single word in seminary, but I didn't really absorb a lot of it. That scene in interpreters house where interpreter is taking him and he's showing them. Some of it is like paintings that he's showing him. Yes, some of it is almost like object lessons or there's like skits almost where things are enacted. That really shows you because it's interesting because there's the picture of the preacher, but then interpreter himself is actually an image of a pastor unfolding the Scripture and explaining it. And so it's interesting because Bunyan's model of preaching was not oration, right? So there's nothing wrong with oration. There's nothing wrong with rhetoric. There's nothing wrong with utilizing those vehicles of communication in the preaching exercise. But Bunyan was not a trained or an order or a train rhetorician, he was a common person utilizing common ways of speaking. And so this this idea that interpreter is using Word pictures, actual pictures, enacted scenes, almost like skin Or drama, that really is an image of what Bunyan thinks, at least him as a pastor, what he's doing for the people. And so he you know, became makes the comment that Bunyan would often impersonate God to the people we read about that in the last chapter there was there was this, this style of preaching where the preacher would actually sort of take on the percentage of God and present himself almost in like a skit fashion as addressing the people as God. And so there's this element of almost like drama and and pageantry that comes with some of Bunyan's preaching that we don't see a lot in some of the other Puritan preachers.

Jesse Schwamb 34:39
And that's what's remarkably unique about him. And I think, again, that God is using him continually, even in our day and age in this way because of the experiences that he brought him through and beaky spent some time with reference that very thing that the spiritual preaching for someone like Bunyan was quintessential in nature because he He's just going through so much stuff. Yeah. And so actually, I think my favorite work of Bunyan is not Pilgrim's Progress be a second place to his work on prayer. And part of the reason I was so drawn to that work is it is pastoral. But it's almost like just in that book as it isn't his preaching here, as we've been talking about it. He's speaking as someone as if they are friends with one another in the sense. He knows what he knows what it is to suffer in this way. And so when he gives you advice, we speaks and exposes the scriptures about prayer, about temptation, about long suffering about what it means to come under full servitude to the gospel, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is one that's walked the way either before you're going into it or along with you. And so you get somebody who is whose heart is overflowing with just here is the good advice that we need in the situation which we find ourselves. Yeah. So it's not even somebody that's like disassociated or that is like really trying to To bring about some kind of understanding of a complex topic in terms of its theology, but here's what he's saying, I have lived a hard life. God has made me to see hard things just like the somnus rights. And so because of those very things, I am drawn to the breast of Christ. In so doing, I want to speak out of that experience and preach from the experience against it's the theology is present because it was absolutely needed for fruitful and faithful living. So that's the kind of preaching that he gives us.

Tony Arsenal 36:28
Yeah, and so, you know, let's talk through some of those elements abundance life that beaky draws out, so, so Dr. Becky draws out these three different kind of like phases or experiential touch points in bikies or in Bunyan's life, and he draws out that there's there was terror, there was doubt and then there was grace. And so he, he talks about how in Bunyan's preaching, especially early Bunny and preaching, it was all about the terror and the fear of God and the weight and the pressure of the law. And and he used that, in his own experience that fear that drove him to Christ. In his early preaching, he hadn't quite figured out how to preach the gospel, he was still really focused on the law. And so there's this terror of the law, this terror of our own fallen estate, that Bunyan had really internalized and had really grappled with, you know, that it, it talks about it's, it's strange, because it's not entirely sure, historically, what he's referring to, but Bunyan had this thing he liked to do that's called like bell ringing, and that they don't really know exactly what it's a reference to. But apparently there was this thing he did. And he felt really guilty about it after he would do it. And then he had this experience where he actually overheard these women talking about him, and how like terrible of a person he was, and that really, like rocked him to his core, because one of them was a godly woman, but one of them was just sort of an unguarded one. I think there was actually an instance where he actually overheard a prostitute talking about how how terrible and how, how dangerous Bunyan was. And so this experience of even the ungodly standing in judgment over him, really drove him to be fearful of the Lord. And then through that, even after he became a Christian, he still had this nagging doubt about his salvation that followed him even into his early preaching ministry. But then as he grows, grew, almost had grown as he grew and matured as a Christian and as a preacher, he started to comprehend and grasp and therefore be able to preach the grace of Christ in a way that he hadn't before. And so but Becky kind of lays out these three phases are these three stages in Bunyan's, maturing as a Christian, to really sort of demonstrate how Bunyan then crafted all of his sermons that his sermons had this element of, of the fear of the Lord, this weight of the law that the terror of that and then he sort of enticed people to You doubt themselves a little bit to to understand that they're still in a precarious position. And then he would apply the grace of God in order to sort of resolve that terror and doubt and drive them to the one who can give them that grace in order to resolve and to assuage some of their fear and doubt.

Jesse Schwamb 39:18
You Incidentally, that reminds me of something I've thought for a long time generally speaking about preaching and that is that I think some of the best preaching the one that I appreciate the most, I think that one is most rooted very closely in the scriptures is the kind of preaching where when the pastor gets up to speak, and he is prepared, in fact, all throughout the week or longer for deliver this message. It's been focused inward first, like I sense that here. I mean, have you ever been a part of a sermon? Where are your attend a place where the pastor just only gives glowing like he always sees it glowing examples of himself? Yeah, there's always something a little bit hopeful when I think the pastor self deprecating because at least shows that he's being thoughtful but even more above and beyond that is, I think We're talking about here, the person that gets up and you think, wow, that sermon is just like on point. It's challenging. Yeah, but it's like diagnosing it's cutting into me. It's it's, it's pulling out the cancer. It's showing me something I didn't have before. And I think part of that is the pastor who's willing to be the one that's first willing to go under the knife in preparation. Yeah, that makes sense. I guess that's having this kind of helpful doubt. Because of those three things. This was the one that really stuck with me is his unbelieving state, Bunyan realized that he was even afraid to acknowledge his own lack of faith. And I think there's something there even for us. Yeah, this idea of really trying to be evaluative and how we look at our understanding with and and maybe especially realizing that theological knowledge is not necessarily a precursor for a strong sense in certain knowledge of faith. And so I think sometimes we can be afraid because we think, well, if I start to have these feelings, so I start to really assess and test whether or not I'm in the faith. I'm not gonna like What I see and don't I know enough intellectually to know better than that, or to at least say that I have enough familiarity with these concepts, these theological terms, they ought to be in the faith. And that's all he says here. And I think that's a very scary thing to do. But I think we ought to try to do that from time to time.

Tony Arsenal 41:16
Yeah, this sentence here, and this just sums up Bunyan. So well, this is Bunyan writing here, he says, When God shows a man, the sin he has committed, the hell he has deserved the heaven he has lost. And yet, that Christ and grace and pardon maybe had, this will make him serious, this will make him melt this will break his heart. And this is the man whose heart whose life whose conversation and all will be engaged in the matters of the eternal salvation of his precious and immortal soul. And that that really encapsulates Bunyan's whole program for preaching. And this this is the this is the thing is that This is not new, like nothing that we're reading through this should be revolutionary like, all throughout this book. It's been solid log gospel preaching. Like every I mean different preachers have different emphases. Right We read last last time we read about Goodwin and shepherd, and you know, Goodwin and Shepherd have different embassies. I think it was shepherd who tended to be more heavy on the line Goodwin who tended to be heavier on grace in the Gospel, but this log gospel preaching to show someone what they have lost by their sin and what they stand to, to obtain by the merits of their sin, compared to the the eternal and infinite blessings of Christ that come through faith alone. That was really at the heart of Bunyan's preaching and he experienced it. That's, that's the key that I think is different from some other. Other preachers you may read is that he really experienced the lowest lows. You can almost think of Bunyan as like that. forbearing gang member who comes out of a life of drugs and violence and embraces the gospel and goes to, you know, goes and just starts preaching the gospel from the heart. And God uses that in a powerful way. Because of how far the person has been brought from death to life. They're able to show that transition to others in a more kind of Stark way. You know, it's not like someone like, you know, like a john Owen, who was raised in the church never got into serious trouble, and had a conversion experience at some point. But it wasn't this drastic experience of going from bad to good. It was kind of this experience of going from unconverted to converted, but it's different for Bunyan. It's a different experience, then then I think a lot of the other Puritans had.

Jesse Schwamb 43:45
And so on the one hand with bundle we've got, as you just said, all of this stuff that happened to him that was really outside of his control, but part of his experience. And yet on the other hand, I would say when it comes to this issue of faith, we have him see him putting him Self in a place that you can have the experience or knowledge. So I was really challenged by this idea that he basically said that he was not going to be content until he came to a certain knowledge of faith. He was unwilling to be content until it came to that point. Yeah. And it made me think, Well, what do I need to get to that point? Don't even ask that kind of question. So this idea of wrestling with the scriptures of wrestling, everything that he's going through, I think made his preaching particularly strong, because he was a man that was just not willing to be entertained or distracted in any other way until he came to a solid understanding till he himself was fully convinced. And in our day and age was just so easy to turn your mind on to something else very quickly, because you just don't want to think about it. Yeah, I was somebody who was not willing to let that happen. And I really think that's admirable, like, I wonder how that by his example, how does that fit into how does that play into how we ought to understand the faith in the scriptures to really go forward, leaning into the Lord Jesus? Christ as the one who has saved us is to pray as pray in the way that you just kind of read from that quote, they're like, Lord, teach me what it is to be like this teach me what is to understand and have certain knowledge of faith. If we prayed like that, I'm wondering how God would answer that type of prayer. You know what it would look like? It would certainly be through the Scriptures. But I think sometimes I think we hope for me, I'll just speak for myself. Sometimes I hope that when I open up the scriptures, as I pray through them, that I'll just be led automatically into some kind of technology that results almost without a lot of effort on my part, like, I'll just be like, Oh my gosh, like God, you are so amazing. And there are times that that does happen. But I think the kind of weights and accountability and influence that Bunyan is writing about here is of a different kind. It's the kind of the Christian who's ready to go to work. We're trying to understand and is not afraid to peer and do some self evaluation. understand there is in many places in my own life, a lack of faith, and then is at the same time unwilling to be content with that lack of faith, yeah, knowing that it will not be made perfect until the beatific vision when it is no longer necessary or required. But until that moment that we ought to strive to have the most certainly complete knowledge of fate that we possibly can. And that that doesn't primarily, or maybe even principally happened, because I read a lot of good theology, although that is important. But that because we are wrestling and praying to the scriptures and asking that God who is the progenitor giver of faith would in fact, make it certain and knowledgeable for us.

Tony Arsenal 46:31
Yeah, yeah. And so then, Dr. bheegi, then kind of pulls out three distinct elements or distinctives of Bunyan's preaching, and it's not to say that others don't also have these, but he's kind of identifying these as, like the thing the hallmarks of, of Bunyan's preaching, kind of in Contra distinction to someone else's, and so he, he talks about how Bunyan was involved in participatory preaching, and by that he means that Bunyan believed that the those hearing the sermon needed to be participants in the sermon. And so one of the ways he did that is he often preached in the second person. So he was actually preaching to the congregation, or he was often kind of impersonating himself as a member of the congregation under the preaching of the Word. He also talks about how and this is the one I want to focus on most talks about how Bunyan exercise what he calls pleading, preaching. And so there's an element of Bunyan where he was begging the congregation to respond in faith to what it was that he was preaching. And so I'm not going to read this whole thing here, but he has this long quote from a Bunyan Bunyan sermon, where basically he is comparing the person who claims to be a Christian, but bears no no fruit to the barren fig tree. So he's he's pulling out some of the biblical imagery of Christ cursing the fruitless fig tree, but then he actually takes that and sort of read shapes into a different analogy. And basically it's this fig tree that is, is basically flaunting its fruitless ness in the face of God. And then as the fig tree is dying as death comes to claim this claim this wayward person, the fig tree suddenly begs God to save him. And basically saying, like, if you don't bear fruit, if you refuse to be a fruitful tree, then you shouldn't expect in the final day for God to show you mercy. And he's not using that in the sense of a legalistic perspective. You're not saved because you're, you know, you're fruitful tree. But he uses this to sort of plead with the Christian to say, don't wait until it's too late. Don't wait until some day in the future when you think you'll have an opportunity to repent or you think you'll have an opportunity to bear the fruit that is in keeping with repentance. He's saying there may come a time where God shuts the door on your ability to repent, he shuts the door on your ability to be saved as You approached death. And you don't want to be found in that. So he's begging the hearer of his sermon to respond.

Jesse Schwamb 49:07
And I think there's something of course, that's very biblical about that. But something maybe that's lacking in contemporary preaching is this idea of urgency. And I appreciate that this idea that what we're talking about here is, in fact, an emergency that our time is shorts. And that's what every cry of the gospel is a cry that's come, repent, believe, be saved, turn, and do it today. Do it. Now. There's, there's always like, I think, in all of like the first century preaching all of Jesus's preaching and, you know, Jesus was primarily a preacher, we have this sensibility that you ought to do it. Now. Don't wait a second longer, right? Even going back to Moses, if you hear the voice of the Lord, like Do not be hard hearted, and and I love how kind of beaky talks about how there is this tension between knowing that not everybody is going to respond to that message, but does not mean that you need to you should not couch it in language that has this kind of real sense of urgency.

Tony Arsenal 50:06
Yeah, yeah. And then the final distinctive that he calls out and we don't. We don't need to spend a lot of time on this because this has been a common theme throughout all of the preachers we've looked at, is that his his preaching was really focused on exalting Christ. So he calls it Christ, exalting preaching. And he he's, he's saying that even though Bunyan's preaching had doctrinal elements, and there was this evangelistic will or evangelistic element to it as well, that the end of the day his preaching was not only doctrinal, but was also docs illogical. So regardless of the fact that it was a doctrinal treatise that it was an evangelical pre sermon, it also served for glorifying God and driving those who are in its hearing to the further worship of God. And so you have this three part element of Bunyan's preaching that really forms kind of the core distinctive of his, his way of doing things.

Jesse Schwamb 51:05
Miss dentally Bunyan Is this a wonderful example of I think the veracity of the Christian faith, because here's a man that obviously was intensely practical, made a substantial amount of sacrifices for what he believed. But what was really in his own life proving and testing out everything that he claimed, at least was true. And so we get to this point about his preaching of being Christ centered and Christ exalted. Really, all I can imagine is him having these times of amazing, like emotional temptation to give in or to feel sad for himself while he's in prison, for instance, and to the only thing he can rely on is is the Christ who is the one who's close to him, while he's in that moment of suffering while he is alone by himself. That's the Holy Spirit, who is providing him the nourishment that is essentially reinforcing all these wonderful doctrinal things into a heart and a Life in such a way that they are normative, impractical. And so I think that what God gives us through Bunyan is a special kind of preaching that lifts up Christ in that kind of unique way. It's not to say that there are many other minded women who haven't had that type of experience and spoken to it. It's just that I think what we see here with Bunyan is somebody who is incredibly humble, and it was self sacrificing, and did so under the auspice that he owed everything that Jesus Christ who was his comfort who was with him in the fire, on the hard road, in this in the jail cell beside him. And so I think that that I always say that college is preaching. I think that was his preaching that here was an ethic where its strongest incentive was in its practice. And for him the practice was one of practicing the doctrines that he taught, being lived out through a life that brought doxology because Christ delivered him he was the one that was actually coming through, even in the hardship.

Tony Arsenal 52:56
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Bunyan is one of those figures that I think whether you agree with all of his theology or not, whether you agree with his preaching or not, he is such a significant figure in the history of reformed thought, because he does come at things with not a different theology, but a different way of looking at that the Yes, yeah, you know, when you read Pilgrim's Progress, there are you know, if you read Pilgrim's Progress with a real strict eye to the Ordo salutis and I have a question I want to ask you about that. But if you read it with a real strict eye to the Ordo salutis it's kind of messed up like he gets it wrong. Yeah, it's it's a funky way to look at it. And, you know, like, there's the holy war and there's things in the Holy War, which is another allegory that he wrote, that just don't quite sit right. But But if you read him and you look at him, you can't avoid the impact and the influence he's had. I mean, some some figures say that the pilgrims progress is the second most second best seller in all History of English literature second only to the Bible. You know, it's this enormous work of cultural significance that even you know if you look in like penguins classics or like Oxford classics, like anthologies, pilgrims progress shows up in these as like a massive work of English literature. You can avoid an even secular people can avoid it. So I wanted to ask you With that in mind, when do you think pilgrim slash Christian actually gets saved in the pilgrims progress?

Jesse Schwamb 54:34
That is the question though, isn't it

Tony Arsenal 54:35
is so what do you think?

Jesse Schwamb 54:38
I don't, I've gone back and forth on this a couple of times. And now I'm actually more I would say, I'm, I've actually tried to let this go sound lame, but I've actually tried to liberate myself from trying to put down a particular experience or point out where he is. Yeah, because, like you said, it's almost it's a little bit too free flowing with respect to like, there's no we were used to Think of this in kind of a logical sequence where there's a really firmly established chain of events, right. And that's not exactly the way that he unfolds the story. And so I struggled with that for a long time until I finally come was kind of that liberty of like releasing myself from trying to impose on him that that was exactly what he was trying to do. So I don't think it's particularly helpful. I'm kind of like shirking the question.

Tony Arsenal 55:22
Yeah, that that was an excellent non answer. Thank you.

Jesse Schwamb 55:26
I just didn't want to show because I don't know that I really know. Yeah, I don't really know.

Tony Arsenal 55:31
So I you know, me, I'm like a technical I look for the sales in the text. You're probably right if you're reading the story and try to interpret all the symbolism, because there are several points like there's there's several significant candidates, right. There's when he writes, he goes from the through the wicked gate or The Wicker gate, right? There's when the burden comes off his back at the foot of the cross. You know, there's there's all these different points where it could have happened and there's good arguments, but I think there's a good argument right right off the beginning of the book. It's when he's with obstinate and pliable, right? So, pilgrim pilgrim, and he's called pilgrim and this you'll see why I think this is he's called pilgrim up to this point, right? So the text has like little name indicators for who's speaking throughout the allegory. And up until this point he's called pilgrim. And he flees from the city of destruction. evangelist tells him that destructions coming, he he flees, and he starts on his way, and two of his neighbors named obstinate and pliable come, and they come specifically to try to persuade him to not continue on the path that he is. And obstinate says here what and leave our friends and our comforts behind right so they say, we're coming to get you to come back with us and pilgrim says I can't you live in the city of destruction will die if we stay there and obviously it says what should we leave the people behind? And then Bunyan calls him Christian, his name changes to Christian when he says yes, because that all is not worthy to be compared with a little of what I'm seeking to enjoy. If you will go along with me and hold it and you shall fair as I myself will, for there where I go, there is enough to spare. So there's this weird spot in the text where he stops calling them pilgrim. There's no reason. It's not like he was hiding his name. It's not like there's some big reveal that this is some super secret person. But he was called pilgrim. And now he's called Christian. And it's at that point where he faces the decision to go back to his life and to abandon his pursuit of God, that He starts to be called Christian. So I think that's when it happens. But there are a lot of different arguments for other spots. This is one that I don't hear brought up very often, though.

Jesse Schwamb 57:40
No, I mean, I have heard that a slight variation of that before but I agree with you. It's it's a it's interesting. Yeah, there. I mean, I'm not opposed to that. I think that's what makes this work in some ways, particularly beautiful, why we so reticent to pick a spot is because I think oftentimes the the burden falling off is the place but I also There's something beautiful and not knowing exactly, because I think there is a truthfulness and how he writes that this is, is messy. And we're getting these kind of like little snippets and amazing interactions and experiences. And God is doing something in this grand narrative for pilgrim. And it's, it's beautiful, and it's a complex and it's nuanced, in the sense that just like in our own lives, I think sometimes we think that we are saved, like almost like what buddy's writing about here, like, we think we have all the pieces together, and we understand. And then God does something to just knock us down. And then we realized, oh, my goodness, I'm not sure that I was I ever had the faith that i thought i possessed to begin with. Yeah, so I think they're almost some of those little occurrences in this narrative. Although it's, I can't say for certain, but either way, there's just all these really amazing, beautiful points. So maybe, I mean, as we're coming to the end here that again, we can just affirm. Let 2020 be the year that you picked this up for the first time. If you haven't before. I think you would agree that we'd be remiss at this points. If we're talking about Pilgrim's Progress, the work in particular, that we didn't again, recommend something by our fellow brother Paul Cox. Yeah. Who He has an illustrated version of this that's now available on Amazon. It's called pilgrims progress, a poetic journey. It's an illustrated book that's been adapted for children. It is beautiful. It is worth everybody picking up whether you have children or not. Yeah, this would be a wonderful foray into this story. So go check out pilgrims progress, a poetic journey by Paul Cox.

Tony Arsenal 59:35
Yeah, absolutely. Well, the only other recommendation that I have is to check out this Discord server that we've set up. I'll tell you what, I'm going to toss a book club up on caravan about the pilgrims progress. And so you can join up with other reformed brotherhood listeners who are reading through this in 2020. chat about it. argue about when Christian becomes a Christian, you know, in some senses, like Pilgrim's Progress was not written by Bunyan to be an allegory of every Christians life. It was really written to be an allegory of his life. And so this, this uncertainty and this, I shouldn't say uncertainty, because I'm sure that he in his mind had an idea of when it was that pilgrim became a Christian. But the lack of clarity is quintessential about his Christian life. Like we talked about that, that even even as he began preaching, he still was plagued with doubts. And as you go through the pilgrims progress, and as you'll see, Christian becomes more and more sure of what's going on, he becomes more and more assured that he's on the path of the Celestial city, and that he will actually reach the path the celestial city, and that very much is quintessential of pilgrims pre of Bunyan's preaching, and his sort of whole program for how he intended to edify the church.

Jesse Schwamb 1:00:55
Yeah, that's well said he's he has a unique life that God used in a mighty way and it's amazing That's something written in the 1600s would still captivate all these generations. And there's something to be said just for that. And I think you would agree that some of as we were described just the language and the images that he paints are like breathtakingly haunting, they're just absolutely beautiful. And there's some that they just get, they get stuck in my mind. And I do find myself coming back to them and thinking about a particular concept. And what I find is, it's almost like that old concept of like the memory palace, you're supposed to try to memorize something by putting it in a spatial reference in your mind. Right. And he does that I think exceptionally well. Yeah, I think he really big and broad theological topics. He's distilling them down. And then he's putting them in this, these kind of like stories where I think about that room and interpret his house all the time, actually, as well my favorite scenes, and I just found myself dwelling on it and thinking about it as if I was standing there having the conversation and thinking about these rich theological concepts. It's It's good. I wish I wish I was that dude. I wish I maybe is it I mean, maybe we can try to make this podcast the Pilgrim's Progress of audio.

Tony Arsenal 1:02:12
Maybe that's pretty, pretty ambitious there.

Jesse Schwamb 1:02:17
Yeah, it will, especially since I spent like the first 10 minutes of this podcast talking about police pants. So I'm pretty sure that's

Tony Arsenal 1:02:24
already been done through and fevers

Jesse Schwamb 1:02:26
and fevers. Yeah. Which you know, to bring a full circle. It's it's possible. Who knows why I said last week, because that was just straight up like fever city. And I'll tell you one thing. Can I deny one more thing before we end this conversation?

Tony Arsenal 1:02:40
You may proceed.

Jesse Schwamb 1:02:42
Okay, thank you. I appreciate the floor. So when I went back to hear if my voice sounded as awful as I felt it did, and I confirm that indeed, it sounded fantastic. Did

Tony Arsenal 1:02:52
you sounded like trash.

Jesse Schwamb 1:02:54
Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. I love it. I was had to go to our website. had to go to our website. I love to go to our website and went to our website. And or Actually, no, maybe Maybe it was because now I'm in the Facebook land. I went on a Facebook, I clicked on the link, and then I didn't notice, although I remember you told me this, that we now get like a transcript of everything that's been said, Oh, my goodness, that was worse for me than hearing my own voice. Yeah, having somebody or looking at a transcript of stuff that you've said. I was like, I would never listen to this person because super annoying and apparently cannot speak at all. Just based on the transcript.

Tony Arsenal 1:03:35
Yeah, well, the transcript doesn't do a phenomenal job of understanding what we're saying. It's enough to get the broad contours I don't do much with like, cleaning up the language and making sure it's accurate.

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:46
I wasn't even that was sensing. It was like inaccurate. I was just like, wow, I don't English is my first language. It was just so horrific. I was like, wow, I will never look at this ever again.

Tony Arsenal 1:03:58
All right. Well, I'm a Gonna go to Bible study Jessica's gonna go take a nap and until next time, honor everyone. Love the Brotherhood.