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In this deeply personal and theologically rich episode, Jesse welcomes his wife Jenn to discuss suffering, steadfastness, and God's sovereign purposes in pain. Jenn shares her ongoing journey with endometriosis—a chronic illness that has led to multiple surgeries, emergency procedures, and ongoing medical challenges. Through candid conversation, they explore how suffering is never condemnation for believers but rather a refining tool in God's hands. This episode moves beyond abstract theological discussion to demonstrate how Reformed doctrine meets real life, offering profound encouragement for anyone walking through prolonged trials. Jenn's testimony reveals how moving from a victim mindset to a steward mindset transforms suffering into an opportunity to comfort others and glorify God, even when answers remain unclear.
One of the most transformative insights Jenn shares is the concept of moving from a victim mindset to a steward mindset in suffering. This shift doesn't minimize the reality or severity of pain—Jenn's experience with emergency surgeries, a temporary colostomy, and now a nephrostomy tube is genuinely difficult. Rather, this perspective acknowledges that God can be trusted even when circumstances feel overwhelming. The concept of stewardship typically applies to blessings—time, talents, resources—but Jenn extends it to suffering itself. If we truly believe Romans 8:28, that all things work together for good for those who love God, then even our most painful experiences become something to steward faithfully. This means asking God not just "why?" but "how can you use this?" It means looking for opportunities to comfort others with the comfort we've received from God (2 Corinthians 1:4). Jenn's ability to help others facing colostomies or endometriosis demonstrates this stewardship in action—her suffering became preparation for ministry to others facing similar trials.
Throughout the conversation, Jenn repeatedly returns to God's character and sovereignty as the foundation for enduring prolonged suffering. When doctors told Jesse that only two resections out of thousands had failed—and his wife's was one of them—the natural response would be to feel victimized by terrible odds. Instead, understanding God's sovereignty reframes even statistical anomalies as part of His purposeful plan. This doesn't mean suffering is easy or that pain doesn't hurt, but it does mean suffering is never meaningless or outside God's control. Jenn's starting point in processing each new medical challenge is not her emotions or even her physical pain, but God's trustworthy character. This theological foundation—that God is good, sovereign, and has purposes we cannot always see—functions as a filter through which every diagnosis, setback, and difficult day must pass. Without this anchor, suffering becomes unbearable randomness. With it, suffering becomes a crucible for sanctification, an opportunity to experience God's sustaining grace, and a platform for displaying His glory to a watching world.
One of the unexpected fruits of Jenn's journey with chronic illness has been the opening of conversations about faith with non-believing friends and coworkers. When people observe someone handling devastating diagnoses and repeated medical setbacks with genuine (though not perfect) peace, they notice. Jenn recounts multiple instances of people saying, "I don't know how you're handling this so well," which creates natural opportunities to point to the source of that peace—not personal strength, but God's sustaining presence. This aligns with 1 Peter 3:15's instruction to always be prepared to give a reason for the hope we have. For believers, suffering is never wasted because it demonstrates to a skeptical world that Christian faith is not merely theoretical or confined to good times. The gospel proves its power most clearly when it enables believers to endure what should be unbearable. Jenn's testimony shows that effective evangelism often flows not from having all the answers but from displaying authentic dependence on God through difficulty, which prompts questions from those who lack that anchor in their own suffering.
"I don't always have to do the fighting. I don't have to fight this stuff. The Lord will do it for me. He'll fight for me. I just have to trust him and be still and he's got it." — Jenn Schwamb
"God never said that this was gonna be easy... I often think, well, why wouldn't it happen to me? Like, why wouldn't it happen to any of us?" — Jenn Schwamb
[00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 484 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
[00:00:52] Jenn Schwamb: I'm Jen.
[00:00:53] Jesse Schwamb: And this is the podcast where two Become one.
Hey sister.
[00:00:57] Jenn Schwamb: Hey brother. That's so weird. Did not like that at all.
[00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: Well, listen, before we get into it, and we're gonna get into a great conversation on this episode about suffering and steadfastness and encouragement, and we're gonna talk about it like you have never heard it talked about on the Reform Brotherhood podcast before.
And that's in part or in whole because we got a special guest, the most specialist guest in my view, that we have ever had on this podcast. Why don't you tell us who you are?
[00:01:28] Jenn Schwamb: Um, I'm Jen, your wife.
[00:01:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, you are. And we figured it was about time after 10 long years, and it took 484 episodes to get Jen to come onto the podcast.
Listen, this is one of the great marriages of all time. That's what people are saying, not me. Other people are saying that about us.
[00:01:51] Jenn Schwamb: I don't think so.
[00:01:51] Jesse Schwamb: And they're absolutely saying it. And it's finally time that we had you on the podcast, and I am super excited. On a scale of like nine to 10, how excited are you to finally do this?
[00:02:01] Jenn Schwamb: I'm terrified. I'm so uncomfortable already. This is so weird. This
[00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: is fantastic. Everybody we're sitting in now, our makeshift Kitchen studio, two microphones at the kitchen table across from each other, just doing what the Reform Brotherhood Podcast does, talking about God. And that's what we intend to do today.
But of course, before we get to the topic at hand, you know. Or actually maybe you don't know. You know a little bit about affirmations and denials, but even, even before we get there, there's an important thing we gotta talk about, and that is how many podcast episodes of the Reformed Brotherhood would you have said you have listened to?
[00:02:38] Jenn Schwamb: I am pretty sure zero, maybe half. Maybe half of one. Because I do remember, I remember when you and Tony had the idea for the podcast, and I remember you guys starting to record episodes early on, and I feel like I'm certain, I tried to listen to it, but very quickly. So
[00:02:58] Jesse Schwamb: kind
[00:02:58] Jenn Schwamb: very quickly was like, Nope, not for me.
[00:03:00] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, we understand we are not everybody else's jammed, so this is why it makes good sense then to start this episode with a quiz about their reformed brotherhood. Oh no. Wow. For you to answer. So I have five questions here for you. And these are all questions about the Reformed Brotherhood, which I think many of these you'll be able to answer just by way of, I don't think
[00:03:19] Jenn Schwamb: so.
[00:03:19] Jesse Schwamb: Osmosis all. Are you ready? It's gonna be great. Get excited. Question one. How did the Reform Brotherhood podcast officially begin? Was it a,
[00:03:30] Jenn Schwamb: oh, that's multiple choice.
Okay.
[00:03:31] Jesse Schwamb: Tony accidentally purchased two microphones instead of one and wanted somebody to talk to.
[00:03:36] Jenn Schwamb: Nope.
[00:03:36] Jesse Schwamb: Was it B? I didn't think there were enough Reform Theological podcasts in the world.
[00:03:42] Jenn Schwamb: No.
[00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: Was it C You and my sister went shopping and left Tony and I at a brewery, or was it Dee Tony found someone who was wrong on the internet?
[00:03:52] Jenn Schwamb: Well, I mean, it could be Dee as well, but it was C because we were at Trobe's Brewery when Ashley and Tony were visiting us here, and I don't know how it came up, but you and Tony, well, maybe it came up while Ashley and I were shopping.
[00:04:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:04:06] Jenn Schwamb: I couldn't remember if you guys talked about it and then we were like, we're outta here. Or if we had already left and then you, when we came back, you guys were like, guess what? We're gonna start a podcast.
[00:04:15] Jesse Schwamb: We need a sound effect. You absolutely got that correct. Okay. And. I think it officially began once you left us.
This is what happens, I'm sure. Okay. When you leave us alone,
[00:04:23] Jenn Schwamb: we all noted,
[00:04:24] Jesse Schwamb: we started a podcast and then at a
[00:04:25] Jenn Schwamb: brewery,
[00:04:26] Jesse Schwamb: 10 years later, here we are sitting across the table from each other recording an episode. Alright, question two. Okay. It's a little bit more difficult.
[00:04:33] Jenn Schwamb: Oh no,
[00:04:34] Jesse Schwamb: but I'm confident in you. Which of the following is not a catchphrase of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast?
Is it A, that makes me want to run through a wall. B, Calvinism has the Riz C God does all the verbs. Or, D, salvation is like a cake. Now remember, you're looking for the one that is not,
[00:04:57] Jenn Schwamb: first of all, the fact that you're telling me that. You guys say multiples, like there's more than one of, there's the one that you don't say don't.
That's concerning to me. I'm hoping. I'm hoping it's the one where you said Riz. 'cause you and Tony shouldn't be saying Riz.
[00:05:12] Jesse Schwamb: It is not your final answer.
[00:05:13] Jenn Schwamb: Yes.
[00:05:13] Jesse Schwamb: B Calvinism has, you are correct.
[00:05:15] Jenn Schwamb: Okay. Yeah. Good. You guys
[00:05:16] Jesse Schwamb: can't be saying that. Said that in my life.
[00:05:17] Jenn Schwamb: You can't be saying that.
[00:05:18] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that you're absolutely right.
Thanks. Phew. Thanks for calling us out in this hypothetical world that I've created. Alright, question three. This is more difficult still. R Scott Clark is a reformed theologian, theologian pastor, professor and writer who is often mentioned on the podcast. What does the R in his name stand for? Is it a Randy b Rufuss?
C Reginald D. Nobody knows. What does the R in R Scar Clark stand for?
[00:05:51] Jenn Schwamb: I've never heard of that person.
[00:05:54] Jesse Schwamb: If you had to guess Randy Rufuss, Regina Reginald, or nobody know
[00:05:57] Jenn Schwamb: I Reginald, but I'm gonna go with nobody knows. 'cause I don't know.
[00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: You are right on both accounts. Okay. I would've taken both. So the great joke we have is we call him Reginald, but nobody actually knows.
So
[00:06:06] Jenn Schwamb: like, actually nobody knows. Like the internet doesn't know.
[00:06:08] Jesse Schwamb: I don't know. I don't think so.
[00:06:10] Jenn Schwamb: Chachi? Bt doesn't know.
[00:06:11] Jesse Schwamb: I don't think
[00:06:11] Jenn Schwamb: so. Oh, impressive Art. Scott something.
[00:06:14] Jesse Schwamb: Clark.
[00:06:15] Jenn Schwamb: Clark,
[00:06:15] Jesse Schwamb: yeah. So really you just cleaned up on that question by getting both. Is he
[00:06:18] Jenn Schwamb: alive
[00:06:18] Jesse Schwamb: of the potential? Yes, very much so.
[00:06:20] Jenn Schwamb: Oh, I feel like somebody could find out what the art stands for.
[00:06:24] Jesse Schwamb: The whole fun now is the secretive nature of this whole thing. It's a beautiful thing. It's a, it's a lovely mystery like the Trinity, but certainly not as profound. Alright, question four, only two more left. And you are batting a thousand right now. Phew. You're better at this than I think you thought you were gonna be.
I had every confidence. Alright, question four. The podcast was once famously nominated for an award.
[00:06:45] Jenn Schwamb: No,
[00:06:46] Jesse Schwamb: what was that? Thank you for the confidence. What was that award? Was it a top 50? Healthcare Podcasts? B. The top PO 10 podcasts with hosts who look similar. C, top 100 Theo Theology podcasts that won't stop making episodes or D Top 25 podcasts about the weather.
Which of these did the Reform Brotherhood actually receive a nomination for?
[00:07:14] Jenn Schwamb: Oh my God.
[00:07:15] Jesse Schwamb: Was it Healthcare? The one were the
[00:07:17] Jenn Schwamb: same one, like they're still making episodes.
[00:07:19] Jesse Schwamb: Final answer.
[00:07:20] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:07:21] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, so close. So the great joke is, at one point in time we were nominated as a top 50 healthcare podcast, like nominated in quotation marks.
[00:07:29] Jenn Schwamb: That sounds vaguely familiar. Now that. But I don't remember why.
[00:07:32] Jesse Schwamb: Apparently affirmations, denials had put us into a category of healthcare at one point. So,
[00:07:37] Jenn Schwamb: oh, it's like therapy or something.
[00:07:38] Jesse Schwamb: We'll get there. Yeah, something like that. Alright, final question. And at this point, three for four is a really strong showing.
I'm very impressed. Here is the last question. Perhaps the hardest of them all. Question five, who speaks the most on the Reformed Brotherhood podcast? Is it a Tony?
[00:07:59] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah. Or just Tony? Based on what I can hear through the floor of our, of our house. I, I am aware of when you're speaking and I'm guessing it's Tony,
[00:08:10] Jesse Schwamb: we're gonna go with a Tony.
[00:08:11] Jenn Schwamb: Yep.
[00:08:12] Jesse Schwamb: Everybody knows. Everybody knows. We love Tony. We miss him on this episode, but not as much as I enjoy having my wife with us.
[00:08:19] Jesse Schwamb: So let's move in then to affirmations and denials before we get to the topic at hand. You know the drill, and if you're listening for the first time, we do these things called affirmations and denials because we're coming alongside the reformed tradition where it would come and say, I affirm with these principles, or deny against these things.
And we've taken that to use in our own conversations as, here's some things we really, really like, or here's some things that are really not that great. So, Jen, I ask you on this episode, are you affirming with or or denying against something?
[00:08:49] Jenn Schwamb: Affirming.
[00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: What are you affirming
[00:08:50] Jenn Schwamb: with? Oh, I have to go first.
[00:08:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, you're the best.
[00:08:53] Jenn Schwamb: I don't even know how you guys do them. 'cause I've never listened and I don't think you had affirmations and denials when you first started.
[00:08:59] Jesse Schwamb: No. This, that was, who
[00:09:00] Jenn Schwamb: knows when that started. There's one episode that I maybe listened
[00:09:02] Jesse Schwamb: to. Yeah, that's a great question.
[00:09:03] Jenn Schwamb: Um, well welcome. I decided I was gonna affirm because it was the first thing that came to my mind when you told me I was gonna have to do something.
Uh, and I don't know, maybe you've affirmed it before, but it is the brand of clothing re, which I am decked out in right now. Specifically their joggers and their hoodie sweatshirt.
[00:09:20] Jesse Schwamb: Alright. But you gotta tell the people like why you like this. There's so much you call them, they're,
[00:09:24] Jenn Schwamb: oh, well, what I call, and not just me, but my friends and my car.
I've never heard
[00:09:28] Jesse Schwamb: anybody else say this.
[00:09:29] Jenn Schwamb: These, these specific sweatpants, which are the VUI performance joggers. Uh, we call them butter pants because they feel like butter. They're really soft, they're really comfortable. I will say the brand is not particularly cheap. They're a little on the pricey side. I do not normally spend this amount of money on clothing.
I shop at thrift stores, but when it comes to my athleisure, I like to be comfortable. And so these are my favorite. I'm wearing right now, the performance joggers and a hoodie, and I'm never been more comfortable.
[00:10:04] Jesse Schwamb: And we really should be sponsored by Vori at this point.
[00:10:06] Jenn Schwamb: That'd be great.
[00:10:07] Jesse Schwamb: That's a, I mean, that would be great for
[00:10:09] Jenn Schwamb: what if you got a sponsorship for Vori after the one episode that I was on.
[00:10:14] Jesse Schwamb: This is gonna be the definitive Vori episode. I also do, I have a pair of these? Did you get me a pair of pants?
[00:10:20] Jenn Schwamb: Uh, I got you a pair of pants once you tried 'em on. And we were both like, no. Oh, that's a good, that was not a good choice.
[00:10:25] Jesse Schwamb: It was a fit though.
[00:10:26] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah. Not a good choice for you.
[00:10:29] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:10:29] Jenn Schwamb: That particular swim, they were comfortable.
You have. Something
[00:10:34] Jesse Schwamb: nobody knows.
[00:10:36] Jenn Schwamb: Oh, there's, oh, maybe you don't.
[00:10:37] Jesse Schwamb: No,
[00:10:37] Jenn Schwamb: I got your rabbit stuff. That's true. You like to wear the rabbit brand. Also affirming that very good brand
[00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Of athleisure. So you're looking for something that's super comfortable and if whatever reason you've ever thought to yourself.
These pants are slightly more rough than I would like. Is there something that would feel like somebody put butter on my legs, then there's good news.
[00:10:56] Jenn Schwamb: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:56] Jesse Schwamb: That's a really strong affirmation.
[00:10:57] Jenn Schwamb: They're out there.
[00:10:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I think that's great. Alright, so I'm gonna also affirm with on this episode, and it's has to do with you 'cause it's something you just brought home and I'm enjoying now.
I did just buy that right before we started coughing. We, we, the background is we've had a little sickness in our household, A little flu, a little cold action, which we were pretty good in convalescing from. And then all of a sudden we decided, why don't we set up some microphones? And both of us had never wanted to cough more in our entire lives.
[00:11:24] Jenn Schwamb: I never wanted to cough more than right this second.
[00:11:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. That's how it goes. It's like when something funny happens in church and you've gotta keep it together. Same principle play here. So, but you brought home and I'm enjoying this non-alcoholic beer, which has been my jam recently. I'm really just enjoying.
Having the treat of beer but without the alcohol, which is nice. And this is a brand I haven't had before, Bero, BERO,
[00:11:47] Jenn Schwamb: I think that's how you say it.
[00:11:48] Jesse Schwamb: And I am trying the double tasty West Coast style IPA because it's fun and it's, it's actually delicious. So I think it used to be that when you had non-alcoholic beer, you knew you were having it because it tasted funky.
Just bad.
[00:12:05] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:12:05] Jesse Schwamb: I dunno why I'm asking you, but
[00:12:06] Jenn Schwamb: I know you're looking at me like, you know when you've had all that non-alcoholic beer
[00:12:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:12:10] Jenn Schwamb: For so many years.
[00:12:11] Jesse Schwamb: For as much alcoholic beer as you've had as episodes, you've listened to the podcast.
[00:12:14] Jenn Schwamb: Exactly.
[00:12:14] Jesse Schwamb: What did you think? But this is fantastic and I've had a couple recently and they're just so good.
I wouldn't be able to tell. So it's really nice.
[00:12:21] Jenn Schwamb: It looks like a beer.
[00:12:22] Jesse Schwamb: It does. It has like the head of a beer. It has a little bit of that lacing on the side of the glass. But also more than anything, I wanna cough so bad right now, so this is like
[00:12:31] Jenn Schwamb: delicious. Do you wanna tell people why I think that beer to buy or do we not wanna say that?
And by beer, I mean non-alcoholic beer.
[00:12:36] Jesse Schwamb: Is there a secret?
[00:12:37] Jenn Schwamb: Because Tom Holland's affiliated with it somehow and he's Spider-Man that, and I love a Marvel movie. I movie know. That's how I found out about it. He talked about it like on a late night show or something, and he, I don't know if he created it, if he's a partner in it, if he, I don't know, he's sober.
And one, it was looking for good. I remember him talking about looking for good non-alcoholic beer. It didn't feel like there were many out there. So he had some sort of involvement in that
[00:13:00] Jesse Schwamb: and thought so he just made it himself.
[00:13:01] Jenn Schwamb: I don't know. I just knew he's affiliated and I hadn't seen it anywhere. And then this morning I saw it, so I had to get it.
[00:13:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's really good. I feel a little tingly this, these are all kinds of jokes Tony would love right now. Ugh.
[00:13:13] Jenn Schwamb: I can't wait for Tony to listen to this.
[00:13:15] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, neither can.
[00:13:16] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be a joy for everybody and I think it really will be because I've, you and I have talked about doing a podcast for quite some time, having it on the podcast, not this type podcast.
That's true. All we have had all kinds of ideas. But when it came time for me to think about people that I would like to talk to in this season of the podcast, honestly, you were the first one that came to my mind. And in part that's because we've got some stuff going on in our lives and you in particular, and for a while you've been on a journey of sorts.
And I think that the one thing that Tony and I try to bring into all our conversations is that. If the, if your theology doesn't work in the course of normal life, then it just doesn't work. So it doesn't matter how much we know and how much we process, what we can even recapitulate or regurgitate in terms of profound theories and philosophies and big words, if it is not the kind of thing that draws us close to our Lord Jesus Christ, that enables us to serve him, to love others more and to have the kind of firm faith that he desires for us in this life as we live it abundantly in the way that he's given it to us, then what does it matter?
And you have a profound amount of theology in your life and in practice, and that's something I very much admire. And so we chose this topic because we thought it'd be super fun for everybody. Let's talk about suffering and let's talk about steadfastness. And we've talked so much in the past, and this is what makes it special.
We talked so much in the past about how suffering exists because of the fall, but it's govern governed by, governed by God's sovereign providence. And for believers, suffering is never a condemnation. You and I've talked about that quite a bit. Because Christ has made a way through all of that. He's paid for that fully on the cross.
The mortgage in our soul has been paid in full. We talked about that actually in the last episode. Instead, though God doesn't remove this suffering, he uses it to sanctify, to harmful, to refine, to preserve his people. And that steadfastness is the grace enabled endurance of faith through trial, sustained by the word, through the prayer, through ordinary means.
All the things that are part and parcel that you hear people say in reform theology. But really only matter when we impound them in our journey and we are anchored in them by the promise that after suffering comes glory. And so in all of that, Julia thought about you. So I think maybe a good place to start is maybe talk a little bit about your journey.
Why? Why you're even one that I want to talk to you about this topic.
[00:15:38] Jenn Schwamb: Well, I don't know why you wanna talk to me about this topic. You've certainly heard enough of it. Um. I guess I don't know where to start. So I guess I'll start with the end, which is I, uh, suffer from a chronic illness called endometriosis.
Um, specifically I deal with, um, an aggressive form called deep infiltrating endometriosis, which means that mine likes to infiltrate all sorts of organs that it does not belong in. Um, it's an illness that affects women, uh, it affects a lot of women. I was actually just telling Jesse that I just discovered this morning, I think on Facebook, that it's Endometriosis Awareness Month.
Who knew? And that it said something on there about, you know, one in 10 women suffer from endometriosis. Wow. Which was shocking to me because, you know, think of 10 women. You know, at least one of them is probably dealing with this. So I have endometriosis, have had it for a long time. Um, it's very painful.
Um, it's very awful. There's a lot that goes into that and I'm not really sure where to start in that story. Um,
[00:16:48] Jesse Schwamb: and this is something that, like you said, you've discovered a little while ago was gonna be part of your life. And we should say that this is why we're one of the top 50 healthcare podcasts or you're about to be
[00:16:59] Jenn Schwamb: now.
[00:17:00] Jesse Schwamb: So on this episode, there is gonna be a little bit of medical talk, I think. So just take that as a fair warning on the conversation. Why don't you explain a little bit like, can we call it Endo? I know that kind of like Yeah, we
[00:17:10] Jenn Schwamb: can call it endo
[00:17:10] Jesse Schwamb: makes it sound cool, but it's not cool. Not cool, but like basically just generally what it is.
[00:17:16] Jenn Schwamb: So what it is essentially is, I was gonna say I don't, dude, I'm guessing most of your audience is dudes.
[00:17:23] Jesse Schwamb: Get ready guys,
[00:17:24] Jenn Schwamb: um, about to say the word uterus a bunch of times. So buckle up. Um, essentially endometriosis is uterine like tissue. That is outside of the uterus. And so it causes all sorts of problems because it gets inflamed, it causes bloating, and it responds, um, in a variety of ways.
That's very frustrating and awful for some women. Um, it's mostly impacts them during their menstrual cycle. For other women, it impacts them every day of their life. All the time. They're in pain constantly. We discovered that I had it, I'm trying to think, probably 16, 17 years ago, um, as a result of, um, Jesse forcing me to go to the emergency room after he found me, I think crying on the floor of our house, um, and telling him, no, it's normal.
It's just cramps. This is just cramps. This is what girls go through. Spoiler alert is not just cramps and that's not normal amount of pain to be in. So we discovered it then, uh, after a trip to the hospital and discovering that I was littered with fibroids, um, and then had surgery for that, which is where we uncovered the endo.
Um, 'cause often endo is diagnosed via like a laparoscopic surgery. It's not, it doesn't show up on MRIs or other imaging, right? So the way to confirm that you have it is via like an exploratory surgery. Uh, so that's when we found out that I had endo, but it made a lot of things make sense because I had been dealing with what I just thought was just really painful cramps for probably most of my, I dunno, teen years into adulthood.
Um, had never heard of Endo before. As far as I know, nobody in my family also experienced it. So it is common if, if it's in your family, like you might also have it, but not for me. Yeah.
[00:19:12] Jesse Schwamb: So let's talk about then, 'cause this is all important in getting to this point of how this has impacted you and how this, how you understand theology and your servanthood in this and you're bearing up underneath this.
But maybe you want to just say briefly, after finding out that that's part of your life, what are some things you've been through because of this?
[00:19:30] Jenn Schwamb: So when we found out about it because of the fibroids, I had had surgery months, I think probably after that to have the fibroids removed and some endo excision, uh, or ablation at the time.
'cause I didn't know the importance of excision then, um, to have it removed and felt a lot better for a little while, maybe for a couple of years. Um, and then have experienced all sorts of things, um, as a result of endo largely besides the pain and all of that stuff. Um, I don't know if Jesse's talked about it on the podcast before, but one of the main things with endometriosis is very common for people to suffer from infertility as a result of endometriosis, which has definitely been our story.
Um, but on top of that, I've had. I don't even know so many surgeries. Yep. Um, I've had some surgeries that didn't go the way that we thought they would go and things that we didn't even know were possible. Right. Um, so probably, I guess it was eight years ago now, nine years ago, in 2018, I had had a surgery to remove more fibroids and to remove endometriosis.
And what I remember about that surgery was that I think it was supposed to be four hours long. So when I woke up, it was supposed to be noon. And I, that was what I remember going to sleep and thinking when I wake up it'll be like lunchtime. And I remember waking up and the surgeon sitting next to me, which was unusual, and I remember her saying, Jennifer, it's five 30 or something like that.
Right. And I just remember thinking, that's not. Right, right. What happened? Um, and a lot of things had happened that I found out within the hours after that. And essentially in that surgery, they had determined, they had come to Jesse and asked if they could move me into open surgery from the laparoscopic to get better access to it.
In the open surgery, discovered that the endo had infiltrated, like I said, uh, my colon, uh, they needed to bring in another surgeon to do a resection of my colon, all with Jesse's permission. So he's just like in the waiting room saying like, I guess, go ahead.
[00:21:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:21:30] Jenn Schwamb: Do what you need to do. Right. Um, so when I woke up from that surgery, essentially I found out that it had infiltrated my colon and that they had done a resection.
They had taken about six inches, I think of my colon out, put it back together. So all was well we thought. Um, and then while I was in the hospital recovering from that, I was in the hospital. I think it was like day seven I was being discharged. I remember vividly you tying my shoes. Yes. That's the part I remember.
I had just gotten dressed. Jessie had just tied my shoes. We had just signed the discharge paperwork and I remember saying, I don't feel really good. And Jessie said, get back in the bed. And I said, no, no, no. I'm just nervous about going home. Uh, I think that's why I don't feel good. And then everything after that was a blur because the next thing I remember is that I was in the bed, that there were a lot of people around me.
I remember people covering me with bags of ice.
[00:22:21] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:22:22] Jenn Schwamb: Um, and I don't remember a whole lot after that, but the short version of that long story is that I ended up having another emergency surgery, turned out my resection had not taken. I was leaking, going septic. Um, and so I had to go into emergency surgery and came out of that surgery with a lovely colostomy bag
[00:22:41] Jesse Schwamb: Mm.
[00:22:41] Jenn Schwamb: That Jessie had to tell me about. Mm-hmm. He had to live That's right. To deliver that news. I forgot
[00:22:45] Jesse Schwamb: about that. Um, so that was a whole traumatic and just dramatic situation, wasn't it? I remember when the doctors were putting all that ice on you and you were spiking like an incredible fever. I remember calling everybody I knew just to ask that they would pray and.
That's another example I think that's we'll get to is God being good to us in that journey in very difficult times, always showing up even when everything felt like it was, it was falling apart. And so you went in for a surgery that was supposed to be outpatient, right? As wild as that was supposed to go home.
Remember that home? Yeah. Then it took an extra, like five hours. Then it was possible that, uh, what happened basically is that that resection didn't fuse properly through nobody's fault. In fact, the doctor who did that surgery, who since did my gallbladder surgery Yeah. This past year.
[00:23:35] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah, that's right.
Same guy.
[00:23:35] Jesse Schwamb: He was such a kind doctor. Really? God brought us to him and he was so beside himself with grief over that it didn't work. And I remember when I spoke with him. And he come out after that second surgery and said, I'm so sorry, but, but she's gonna have to have a temporary colostomy. And he was just devastated by having to have done that, even though he, we all knew it was a possibility.
And so I said to him, well, well, how many of these have you done? He said, thou, I've done thousands of these. And the resections, I said, how many of them have had a problem where it didn't take? And he said, including this one. I said, yes. He said two. So, I mean, talk about how, how do you think about something like that when.
Everything around you is like telling you, well, this is just really bad luck, or you've just been really given, you've drawn the really short straw. But instead, you know, our perspective is, is very, very different than that. And, and I wanna get to that, but now you're kind of up against something else, right?
There's more things on the horizon. Yeah.
[00:24:33] Jenn Schwamb: Now we're, now we're back to it. Um, so it had the colostomy, like Jesse said, it was temporary, had it for five months, had another surgery five months later to have it reversed. It all went well. It was great. Um, I had a few years, a number of years there where I was feeling pretty good.
Um, last few years could tell things were ramping up again. Maybe not doing so hot. But to be honest, um, I was really putting off any sort of surgery conversation. 'cause the last one wasn't great. Right. So really didn't, wasn't eager to do it again. Um, but recently, um, I had been having a lot of pain in my back and my like right.
Right hand side of my back, particularly during my cycle. And I just would tell Jesse, oh, it's just normal endo stuff. It just comes with a territory, right? It's what you, what you gotta deal with. Um, and then, um, back in October, that pain that normally I could kind of get to go away with a bunch of medication and some icy hot patches would not go away.
Uh, it just would not relent. And I was texting some of my medical professional friends and they were like, you should just go to the hospital just to make sure that it's not something more serious. Um, so went through that whole process, went to the er. Um, turns out, um, the, my endo that likes to infiltrate things has now infiltrated my ureter and was blocking my ureter, which was causing my kidney to be swollen and angry, which was what was causing the pain.
Um, when I was in the hospital for that, they kept me, did a procedure, I forget what it was called, but essentially tried their best to remove
[00:26:04] Jesse Schwamb: the blockage.
[00:26:04] Jenn Schwamb: The blockage. They didn't know it was endo. I knew it was endo. Right. Um. They removed it, put in a stent. Um, I had the stent for about a month, all while still in a lot of pain, still communicating with the doctor that something doesn't feel right, I think something's wrong.
Um, went back to the ER about a month later. Turns out stent had failed. So now I have this lovely thing called a nephrostomy tube that is in my back. It's a tube that is directly into my kidney. Um, comes outta my kidney, outta my back, and is attached to a bag that is strapped to my leg. And that's, I have basically a, what I call a urine water balloon attached to my leg all over the time.
[00:26:46] Jesse Schwamb: Go. So another catchphrase
[00:26:47] Jenn Schwamb: for the
[00:26:47] Jesse Schwamb: podcast.
[00:26:48] Jenn Schwamb: So, um. It's, I'm, I've gotten to experience, I feel like, uh, the gamut of, I've had the colostomy bag and now I have the nephrostomy bag. Uh, this should be temporary. That's the hope and the plan. I'll have this until I have surgery again, which is scheduled for in May.
Um, at which point I will have a total hysterectomy and a bunch of other things and a repair of my ureter. They'll have to kind of do what they did with my colon. They'll have to do a resection of my ureter, take out that portion where the endo is, reimplant it in my bladder, possibly move my bladder up.
I don't know. It's very whole, they, it's a lot of things. It's
[00:27:26] Jesse Schwamb: be a whole
[00:27:26] Jenn Schwamb: zoning out. When the urology, urologist was telling me, 'cause I just was like, I don't know what you're talking about.
[00:27:31] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be a party in that or loved ones. That's, that's what we keep saying.
[00:27:35] Jenn Schwamb: Yep.
[00:27:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's what's ahead. So I should stop there and say, I pray for Jen.
Pray for us if you would, that is coming up in a couple months. If you're listening to this, it's, and it's before may, we definitely cover your prayers. This is the big one.
[00:27:48] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah,
[00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: right. This is the big one.
[00:27:50] Jenn Schwamb: This is the one.
[00:27:50] Jesse Schwamb: It's a lot
[00:27:51] Jenn Schwamb: we didn't wanna have.
[00:27:52] Jesse Schwamb: It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And it's difficult and it's hard.
And you're probably hearing from us like this is real stuff. And that's why I was so grateful that Jen would be willing to talk about this, because I think there are people that need to hear this, need to hear, there's encouragement in this, that there's others who are experiencing this type of thing.
But I think the best place to start is something that you and I have talked about a little bit before, which is how, how, maybe that's the best place. Just how I think, especially for teens. I
[00:28:19] Jenn Schwamb: don't know.
[00:28:19] Jesse Schwamb: It's difficult to understand, but you've been through a lot of things, and I know that you've experienced the depth of some of those things, especially after that first surgery with the colostomy.
But what has, what has God brought you through? Like what is it that when it is hard that you, you find yourself going to God for?
[00:28:42] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah, so. It's hard. I don't wanna say it's hard to talk about 'cause it's not only, it's hard to talk about. I'm an open book. I'll tell anybody anything. I just don't often talk about this.
I don't bring it up because I also feel like when you get me talking about it, I think it's, I'm very tempted to say it's not a big deal. It's really not that big of a deal, right? When other people are like, no, it isn't a big deal. I'm like, there's really not. 'cause I think about like so many women or men that go through such just way worse things.
And there are a lot of women, particularly with endometriosis, that are in pain every single day. And very, I'm very fortunate that that is not always the case for me. I'm not in pain all of the time.
[00:29:21] Jenn Schwamb: Um, but to your point, when I was dealing with the colostomy in particular, that was a really, really hard time.
It's amazing what time does 'cause over time, I look back at that and go, oh, it wasn't so bad. And you're like, remember it was really bad. It was 10, but you know, as time goes on, you're like, no, it was okay. It was all right. Um, but I do remember. Having a really, really, really hard time with it. I remember journaling a lot.
That's how Jesse knows I'm really going through something is if he sees my journal out, he's like, oh no. Uh oh. Um, because that is often how I'll, like when I'm going through something really tough, I'll journal my prayers. I'll write to God in the journal when I'm thinking. And I just was really struggling with that.
'cause spoiler colostomy is rough. Yes, it was hard to learn. It was a big learning curve. And they just send you home with a bunch of stuff,
[00:30:12] Jesse Schwamb: right.
[00:30:12] Jenn Schwamb: And a lot of instruction, and you're just reeling and you're like, I don't understand how this works. And I have to eventually go back to work and I have to have this, and what do I do?
And what if something leaks? Like it was just, it was a lot to deal with, even though I knew it was temporary. So I remember in those times just journaling a lot, praying a lot, asking God to. Make it clear why? I just kept asking, I think I was asking why, like why do I have to have the colostomy
[00:30:37] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:30:37] Jenn Schwamb: There has to be a reason. I know there's a reason. Could you tell me the reason? I would like to know the reason. I'm waiting to hear the reason, you know, like I just remember being like, what is it you're, I know you're looking at it. I know you can see right the path ahead. Um, and I remember reading a book at the time.
I wish I could remember the name of the book 'cause I would love to tell you, I don't remember what it was. I do know it wasn't about suffering.
[00:31:03] Jesse Schwamb: Was it by ars Scott Clark?
[00:31:04] Jenn Schwamb: No, I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Also, I'm sure Jesse's never talked about this on the podcast, but it is shocking that I was reading a book because not really a big reader.
[00:31:14] Jenn Schwamb: Um, but I was reading something and I remember one of the quotes in the book was something along the lines about, it was about like accepting your circumstances from God, knowing that like God could be trusted and that he knows best and has your, you know. Best in mind and kind of getting to that acceptance of your circumstances and then moving from that acceptance, like, if you can get to the acceptance of your circumstances, you can then ask God to use those circumstances to glorify him.
And if you can get to that point, then you're mo it was something about like moving from victim to steward. Mm-hmm. That's the part that really stuck with me,
[00:31:54] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:31:54] Jenn Schwamb: Was that movement from not no longer being a victim and being a steward. And I just remember asking God to help me be a good steward of the situation.
I don't like feeling like a victim. That's partly why I don't like talking about the stuff, is I don't want people to feel bad for me.
[00:32:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:32:10] Jenn Schwamb: Don't feel bad for me. It's fine.
[00:32:13] Jesse Schwamb: I feel great for you.
[00:32:13] Jenn Schwamb: Good. Great. I don't want people to feel bad. Um, and I, I don't wanna feel like a victim. I'm not. I just, I don't, you know.
And so I remember asking God just, could you help me be a good steward? Like, what, what would that look like? And I remember asking God that like he would just gimme opportunities to talk to other people maybe that have to eventually have colostomies. I didn't know if I ever would. Spoiler. I did get to, which was crazy.
Um, and I mean, during those times too, I had a lot of family and friends that would reach out and share passages and verses. I was just thinking, I've had people I remember very distinctly too, during that time, my sister, uh, Stephanie sending me a text. It was like shortly after I was home, and I don't remember the exact reference.
It was somewhere in Exodus and it was the, it was, uh, the Lord will fight for you. You need only remain silent. You need only be silent or still, or something like that.
[00:33:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:33:05] Jenn Schwamb: And I remember the time being like, why would she send me that? Like, I don't even know how that fits. What, come on Steph, come, what, what does this mean?
But then I remember really kind of sitting with it and thinking about it. And I've had friends in my recent circumstance send me that same thing. Wow. Out of nowhere. Also named Steph.
[00:33:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:33:22] Jenn Schwamb: A friend named Steph Wow. Has sent me that passage and just kind of, you know, thinking about that, that I don't. I don't always have to do the fighting.
I don't have to, I don't have to do it. I don't have to fight this stuff. I just, the Lord will do it for me. He'll fight for me. I, I just have to trust him and be still and he's got it.
[00:33:41] Jesse Schwamb: So how has, like some of this stuff, maybe everything you've been through, but something in particular changed how you view God or how has going through those things changed your relationship with him because you've been through some stuff together.
'cause I'm, I'm with you. We, we look at the scriptures and we see this amazing example from David who is saying to God all the time, why and how long and what are you doing? So we know like we're standing on, in like the shadow of those who great heroes of the faith have come before us and understand that God can hold up to our questions and our time about suffering.
I feel like it's maybe the most honest thing we can do is to just cry out. And no doubt you were doing a lot of that. I remember that. So having cried out to God, maybe move from victim and steward, how has that changed your relationship with him? How you view him?
[00:34:29] Jenn Schwamb: Um, I'm trying to think of how I wanna like, say that.
I mean, if anything, I think it really, in those hard times, in the continued hard times, it certainly makes me rely on God more, have more conversations with him, have be more candid. I'm a little bit more like candid in my approach to God and how I talk to him, whether that's in my journal or verbally or out loud or while I'm driving.
Um, because he can take it, right? He can. I don't have to be like, pretty please or say things a certain way. I can just say, what is happening? Why are you, why is this happening to me? Um, but again, that's another reason that's hard for me to talk about because I often think, well, why wouldn't it happen to me?
Like, why wouldn't it happen to any of us? Like, God never said that this was gonna be easy.
[00:35:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. That. So that's really interesting and I, I've thought about that too, is why, why flip it that way?
[00:35:21] Jenn Schwamb: I don't know. It just, I, it just, I, I think that's why I'm just like, of course, like I'm. I guess maybe I'm just less surprised.
That sounds really terrible to say.
[00:35:32] Jesse Schwamb: I know. Yeah.
[00:35:33] Jenn Schwamb: It sounds really pretentious. Be like, of course it's happening to me.
[00:35:36] Jesse Schwamb: No, no, no, no. I, I think, I think what, as we've talked about it, what we're reflecting on is that the world is broken. Like you and I have often joke that like endo is the most foolproof, that our bodies are totally depraved.
That like sin is in our world because like it cells that should hang out in one part of the body going wherever they want, unruly and unchecked and causing massive pain and disruption to everything else. And I don't think anybody could look at that situation and say, this is not how it's supposed to be.
Like, every doctor we've ever talked to has been like, it shouldn't be like this. And we wanna say, we're always like, yeah, we know.
[00:36:11] Jenn Schwamb: That's true. That's like the overarching phrase I feel like that I've dealt with my, a lot of my adult life is it's not supposed to be this way.
[00:36:17] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:36:18] Jenn Schwamb: Because it's not
[00:36:19] Jesse Schwamb: right.
[00:36:19] Jenn Schwamb: It isn't supposed to be this way. Um, and I, it has opened up a lot of. Uh, conversations for me with my friends, with loved ones, with coworkers, because I can kind of start at that point and be like, yeah, this sucks. And it's not supposed to be this way. This isn't how our bodies were supposed to be. Um, you know, there's, there is brokenness.
There is suffering. And that, you know, people that know that we are believers, I think often can, sometimes from the outside think that, you know, life is easy and we've got it all together and 'cause, you know, things can look more peaceful. And it's like, no, it doesn't always go that way. And I think you and I often talk about, I don't, I can't imagine going through this without God.
Like, how do, how do people do that?
[00:37:03] Jesse Schwamb: For sure.
[00:37:03] Jenn Schwamb: How's that even possible?
[00:37:04] Jesse Schwamb: For sure.
[00:37:05] Jenn Schwamb: How do you explain anything,
[00:37:08] Jesse Schwamb: right? How, how do you even process it?
[00:37:09] Jenn Schwamb: How do you process it? How do you know where to go? How do you have hope that things will improve or if not improve, that there's a reason for it, that God is doing something.
In your life for you, for others? I don't, I don't know how people do it.
[00:37:25] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. It, it seems hopeless, and in fact it probably is because suffering is such a deeply personal, intense process, and I think it's particularly difficult when it feels like it doesn't go away. Right. When it's like day after day after day, and you've certainly been in a lot of those circumstances, is there something that sticks out for you that helped move you from that victim mindset to the stored mindset?
[00:37:52] Jenn Schwamb: Well, I think probably just God has given me some opportunities to be there for other people in very similar circumstances, which then helps me with that stewardship mindset of like, oh, okay, like I can help other people through this. Um, I remember asking that God would just give me, you know, help me to be a good steward of the situation.
I didn't know what that meant, um, what it meant. Uh, most immediately after the colostomy surgery was that at some point after my reversal, I had met a woman through, I think running through a running group. And then she had joined a bible study that I was leading at the time. And then while in that Bible study, she had discovered that she had, like, I think it was a relatively early stage of colon cancer and that she was gonna have to have surgery and that she was gonna have to have a colostomy.
And, um, this woman who I did not know that well, I was now getting to know really well, right? And was visiting her in the hospital and was, I don't wanna say excited, but I was, I was happy that I was gonna get to like, share what I had learned. 'cause I had learned so much about a colostomy and colostomy bag in my experience.
And I just wanted to be able to make it easier for somebody else and say like, here, this is what you're gonna need. This is how this works. This is what you can expect. This is normal. This is not normal. Here's the best supplies to buy. Here's where you should buy them from. Right? Um, because it was nobody's fault, but I didn't have that.
Nobody was doing that for me. We were just figuring it out. And so I've been able to do that more recently at work. Um, somebody's grandmother was going through some stuff and she needed to have a colostomy bag. And I think this colleague mentioned it to me and I was like, funny you should mention that.
I've also had a colostomy bag. Let me tell you what I know. Um, I was not just going around work talking about Colostomies. It had come up in conversation. Um, and so while I've not interacted with her grandmother, I was able to tell her a lot of information that she was able to pass on to her grandmother and her mom.
Um, and so, um, yeah, just being able to talk to other people that are going through it. I'm in a number of Endo Facebook groups and things like that, um, where girls are often putting, you know, asking for advice. I don't typically give advice, but I might like DM somebody directly and just say, you know, I don't give medical advice, but I might give product advice.
Here's, here's, I went through something similar. Here's the brand I thought was most successful for me. Not a doctor.
[00:40:13] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah, we've said that too though. But again, it's our 50 healthcare podcast. One of the things that I admire about how God has led you in those times is that emphasis on moving into service.
I think you said it best, like the idea, it's a steward, something that God has given us. We generally reserve that kind of words for like the blessings. And I think you and I have talked about this, you kind of said it in some of what you were talking about, where we're not quick to just be like, let's call everything a blessing, because like especially sometimes when it hits us, we don't feel that way and I'm not sure it's, it's helpful to try to run right into that space, but God often lovingly and gently moves us into that space so that we can be a blessing to others.
I wanna read from second Corinthians and uh, the first chapter, this is Paul writing to the church in Corinth. Right off the top he writes, Paul, an Apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God and Timothy, our brother to the Church of God, which is at Corinth. With all the saints who are throughout Achaia grace to you in priests peace from God, our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. And hearing you say that, I immediately, my mind jumps there.
And in fact, like I know, like if we're in any group setting, like we're hanging out with other people and like the colostomy word comes up, I know your ears are gonna be like, I know I'm gonna hear your voicemail. I
[00:41:49] Jenn Schwamb: don't know how that's coming up,
[00:41:50] Jesse Schwamb: but did you say colostomy? And I think it's because like you have, I've seen you taking this theology of comfort, that receiving comfort from God, even if that's comfort in this really tremendously horrible experience.
And it's not like whistling in the dark or trying to turn it around or make it better than it actually is. It's that the joy of going through it is the joy of being able to comfort somebody else. That's, that's what I see. How would you describe it?
[00:42:19] Jenn Schwamb: I don't know how to describe it. I just, I don't know. I have this just overwhelming feeling of, through all of that.
I just, I mean, I just wanna help other people. I just want to make other people's experience better. And I remember seeing a, a tweet when Twitter was a thing somebody had written about, um, you know, if you want, if you want God to use him, or if you want God to use, you don't tell him how.
[00:42:47] Jesse Schwamb: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:48] Jenn Schwamb: And I remember, like, that also often is in my head where I'm just like, you know, asking God, just do whatever you want.
I, I'm not gonna tell you how, I don't get to tell you how.
[00:42:56] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's
[00:42:56] Jenn Schwamb: right. But just use me, use my circumstances. Bring up colostomy in conversation so that I can talk about it or now nephrostomy.
[00:43:07] Jesse Schwamb: Right, and that's happened too, right? Since you've had this process, I know there's been others that you've talked to about that.
[00:43:12] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:43:13] Jesse Schwamb: And it's interesting because I do think use this not as like a platform, it's like every conversation you have ends up in this place, the conversation we're having right now. Now, to be
[00:43:22] Jenn Schwamb: clear, it does not.
[00:43:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. However, I have seen powerfully the way in which this example and your testimony has provided an amazing influence on our friends who are not believers.
How, how has this been something that has helped you talk about what it means to be a Christian?
[00:43:51] Jenn Schwamb: Um, it's hard. I'm, I'm trying to think of how to talk about that, because that's often. Uh, not how I think about it. I, you know, I don't, I'm not thinking about it as, you know, this situation gives me a way to talk to these people about,
[00:44:09] Jesse Schwamb: uh, or that gospel proclamation text.
[00:44:10] Jenn Schwamb: It's just, I don't just, I don't know. It just happens. Like, it's just part of
[00:44:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm with you.
[00:44:14] Jenn Schwamb: You know, the conversation. Um, the people that I know, that I work with, that I'm friends with, uh, know us, know us well, know our feelings, know our relationship with God. Um, and so, you know, I I, it has open conversations where people will ask me or say things to me, which are hard for me to hear because I don't understand it, but they'll say like, I don't know how you're dealing with this.
You're so peaceful. You're, you're handling it so well. Right? And I think you're crazy. I'm not handling this well at all. This is terrible. I hate this. But, and that's why I don't like talking about it because I'm just like, Ugh, this is not. I'm not handling this well. Um, so that will open a door where I'm often like, well, if it seems like I'm handling this well, let me tell you why that is, because there's a reason for the hope that I have.
And there's, you know, I know that, that God has a plan for all of this. Even if I don't understand it or can't see the end, um, I know that he's doing a work in me for me. Um, and, you know, can also share about, you know, just by being a Christian doesn't mean that life will be easy and that it will be without suffering.
[00:45:23] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:45:24] Jenn Schwamb: Um, because that's, I think a lot of people just think that that's the case. Those Christians have it all together, right? Their life is so easy,
[00:45:33] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:45:34] Jenn Schwamb: They don't go through anything hard.
[00:45:35] Jesse Schwamb: Some do come hang out, and the Lord say everybody, yep. You'll see it's, it's the real deal because like you said, God doesn't promise to spare us from these things, and that's what makes this whole conversation about suffering like it turned on its head.
Because as we said at the open, all this stuff doesn't get removed. God is redeeming these things. He's implanted us in these things. He's doing something for us. Like what you said, he's with us. I mean, what great encouragement, again, that is not available to the unbeliever,
[00:46:00] Jenn Schwamb: right?
[00:46:00] Jesse Schwamb: So the person who just thinks the world is a dead and ugly place, without reason, without recourse, but instead, one of the things that really hit me with what you were saying was it sounds like you're starting with not the pain you experienced first.
Not even like the emotions you experienced first, but you're talking about the character and the sovereignty of God first. That everything gets filtered through that. It's like the sve in which you try to pass through everything. Because when it feels helpless, if we not start with the root of character of God first, then everything is gonna be lost.
It's gonna be like suffering's gonna feel like it's, it's random. That it's without purpose, that it's meaningless, that it's for our destruction that's meant to, to. Bring us down instead of to lift us up under the power of God. And I see that in the example. I think that's what people are, are coming to you and saying, because it shouldn't look, can I say it this way?
Like it shouldn't look this easy what you're doing. And I know it's not easy and, and you're not like putting on heirs to somehow make it seem like it's something that's not. However, like when you get up to go to work on a day, that's hard. I know it's because you're receiving power from God to do the things which he's called you to do because you've processed it in this way.
Is that fair?
[00:47:10] Jenn Schwamb: I guess it guys, it makes me even uncomfortable to hear Jesse say that because I'm just like, I don't think that I'm doing anything special or spectacular or amazing because I'm not like, I just am like, I'm just. Doing the thing. Life is hard sometimes and it's a lot harder for a lot of other people, and so
[00:47:34] Jesse Schwamb: that's true.
[00:47:35] Jenn Schwamb: But, but
[00:47:35] Jesse Schwamb: it's one of those things where I'll use the catchphrase, like God does all the verbs. I think that's, that's what I hear you're saying too, is that you have to move forward, but you're doing that because you believe God has called you to Tuesday meetings and to being with your friends and to being at church and to serving in women's ministry and to leading bible studies, and that he will provide a way for you to do that even in the midst of things that seem pretty horrible.
[00:47:59] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:48:00] Jesse Schwamb: In that, in that, in the midst of all that horribleness that God is still doing like a work that's greater than that stuff
[00:48:07] Jenn Schwamb: that bigger. Yeah. He's always given me you, but I can only speak on my, my own behalf. He's always given me the strength to do the thing if I step out to do the thing. Right On.
Um, even on those days that are hard and that I'm feeling really bad physically, uh. I know enough, I've been through enough with God to know if I just, if I just keep going, he's gonna gimme the strength, he will. Mm-hmm. It'll be fine. I'll be okay. And so far, I always have been, you know, and so even as we go into this surgery that neither one of us is looking forward to.
Right. Uh, probably Jesse's dreading it more than I am. Uh, we both also know that, like, on the other side of it, like he's gonna see us through it all. We, there's no doubt in my mind. That's right. That's right. Like, I know that, but I also know it was gonna be hard. It's, it's probably not gonna be easy. It's probably not gonna be pain-free, but it will be good and it will be.
Amen. Better. And that's real faith. We'll get to talk about it with people. Yes. Maybe more than they would like to do about it. You probably all are sick of hearing about it by now. I don't know how long we've been talking about Endo, but it's hours probably too long.
[00:49:21] Jesse Schwamb: Four hours. Longest episode ever. So I think that's a good place to, to kind of wrap up our conversation.
And I wanted to give you the opportunity. You've, you've already mentioned this a couple times, you know, that you, you have a heart that's sensitive to people going through things. I think just like Paul writes to the Corinthians here, if you've been through some stuff, you want to be with the people who are going through that stuff.
You have a heart that gravitates. Mm-hmm. It just moves, it tilts, it goes in that direction. And so for people listening, and I think there're gonna be people listening that are gonna really resonate with this, or they're gonna send it to somebody who's going through exactly what you're talking about.
[00:49:57] Jesse Schwamb: What's like the one thing you'd want them to know?
[00:50:01] Jenn Schwamb: Oh gosh.
[00:50:02] Jesse Schwamb: I know it's tough, but it's my podcast so I get to ask the questions.
[00:50:09] Jenn Schwamb: I mean, oh, that's hard. 'cause there's a lot of things I wanna say. Oh, you
[00:50:12] Jesse Schwamb: can tell. You could say punch. We got
[00:50:14] Jenn Schwamb: all
[00:50:14] Jesse Schwamb: the world. Go ahead.
[00:50:15] Jenn Schwamb: I mean, the one thing that I'd want them to know, which we already talked about is that. God sees them and is with them in this situation. They are not alone. Even if they feel like they are alone or that nobody understands what they're going through, God does.
But the other thing I want them to know specifically, I don't know how many women listen to your podcast.
[00:50:37] Jesse Schwamb: All right sisters, here you go.
[00:50:38] Jenn Schwamb: But, uh, on the just medical side of things, if you are in any amount of pain during your cycle or outside of your cycle connected to your cycle, that is keeping you from going to work or doing your daily activities or just keeping you from living life, that is not normal.
And I thought it was normal for years because doctors just tell us as women is fine. You're fine. Cramps hurt. That's, they shouldn't hurt that much. That's not normal,
[00:51:11] Jesse Schwamb: right?
[00:51:11] Jenn Schwamb: Um, and you should talk to somebody. You should talk to your doctor and you should keep talking to your doctors until you get. To see the right one that will figure out what's going on.
That's the thing that I like to talk to women particularly about the most because we tend to explain our own symptoms away because we're just used to that. Right. And going, it's fine. I'm fine. Everything's fine when it's not. So I just want people to know that it's okay to say this hurts a lot, and I don't think it's normal.
[00:51:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I remember we've talked a lot about, for both of us, like pain and experience and we sometimes wanna say, well, somebody probably has it worse, and that'll always be true.
[00:51:53] Jenn Schwamb: Yep.
[00:51:54] Jesse Schwamb: But one of the things that you've taught me very well is that God does see our pain, whatever it is, like whatever level it is.
Mm-hmm. That's, that's how big and loving he is. And I remember we used to have, it came in like a placard at some point, like a stock card. It says something like, your pain matters here, or Your pain is relevant here. And I think that that this idea that that's exactly how God sees us, he loves us so deeply and so desperately.
All things he would talk about as we've gone through all these parables that he comes for us to be with us in our greatest hour of need. And not only that, but he already did that in our great hour of need, which is when we needed salvation. So when in Isaiah 53 we, we read that Jesus the Messiah is the one who's well acquainted with suffering, who just knows what it's like, and then it's gonna carry and bear our burdens.
That for me has like made all the difference. Even as you and I kind of walk through some of this together, I was thinking of, of this journey that we've been on when our pastor, well, I'll give him an attribution for this 'cause he said this in the sermon last week, pastor Steve Wiggins, he said something to the effect of your greatest spiritual breakthrough, the one that you desperately want, the one that's ahead of you.
That breakthrough is going to come only when you understand and realize that Jesus has everything for your current and present need. That he is all in all. But he's all in all for you right now in the thing that. Feels like it's so intractable, so difficult, so beyond you. Only when you come to him and submit and surrender yourself to him and say, you are everything that you I need for all in all right now, in this particular instance that really, that breakthrough is beyond that place.
And I guess we just had a lot of breakthroughs. So times like there's, there's been different levels of kind of coming into that realization. Um, we didn't talk about that quote. I did. I don't know how, how it strike
[00:53:49] Jenn Schwamb: you. I don know what you're talking about. The, the card or something that you were talking about.
[00:53:54] Jesse Schwamb: I don't know. It showed up like in the mail or something like maybe as part of like mm-hmm. But how, how does that strike you in terms of has this, has this process brought you spiritual breakthrough in at various times?
[00:54:07] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah, I think so. I think certainly at various times, I mean, yeah. Where again, I feel like I'm just repeating myself and saying the same thing in maybe slightly different ways.
[00:54:18] Jesse Schwamb: That's what Tony and I do. It's about jam.
[00:54:18] Jenn Schwamb: Is that what I'm missing on the podcast most is you guys just saying the same thing over and over again?
[00:54:22] Jesse Schwamb: Sure.
[00:54:22] Jenn Schwamb: Um, you know, it's just taught me that, um,
I guess it's just like, I'm trying to think of how I wanna say it. Just, I've learned, I feel like the same thing over and over again where it's like you, you forget because you start to feel better, right? And then you don't feel good again, and you're like, oh, that's right. You know, and that you just, it's been a good reminder to have that, those conversations with God about, like, he gets it.
I'm not talking to somebody that does not understand what suffering is, what that feels like, how hard things are, um, that he gets it and that he. Only wants what is good for me, even when it, the thing I'm dealing with doesn't feel like it's good for me.
[00:55:06] Jesse Schwamb: Right.
[00:55:07] Jenn Schwamb: But I know that it is because he's allowing it.
[00:55:10] Jesse Schwamb: Right?
[00:55:11] Jenn Schwamb: So it has to be
[00:55:12] Jesse Schwamb: that preaches. Amen. I don't think there's any other better place to stop than there. Thanks for being willing to talk about this. I know it's a strange thing. It's a hard thing, but I, I think there's so many people that we blessed and encouraged by what you've shared, and I think that we're just gonna have to have you as a regular guest on the podcast.
Now we don't talk about that. Don't think people want talk about this stuff.
[00:55:35] Jenn Schwamb: Sorry, everybody, that this was the first, my first appearance. 10 years. Let's talk about endometriosis.
[00:55:42] Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned on this episode of the Reform Brotherhood? Well, we've learned that Endo is definitely proof that the fall is real and that sin is in the world and in our bodies.
But I think you've also taught us. That there is so much within all of our suffering that God gives to us, to steward, and I really love that idea of picking up our stewardship and not just saving our stewardship for our blessings, but perhaps more so if Romans 8 28 is for real. I mean, if we actually believe that in our places of most profound disappointment and pain and discomfort, that all things, all the things, everything and all the things to repeat myself, work for good, for those who are called according to God's purpose and love him, then why should we not say that we should steward all the things as well.
So thanks, Jen.
[00:56:40] Jenn Schwamb: You're welcome
[00:56:40] Jesse Schwamb: for coming on this podcast,
Jesse.
[00:56:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're just gonna back up the mics and go about our day as if this ever
[00:56:46] Jenn Schwamb: happens. If nothing happens. This is super weird. Write in about what you want, Jesse and I have talk about next that isn't so serious
[00:56:54] Jesse Schwamb: and he just totally took over the podcast right there.
[00:56:56] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah.
[00:56:57] Jesse Schwamb: That was pretty well done. I love it. You're, you're a professional already, so you heard it from Jen. Loved ones. If you'd like to have her back on, you know how to find us. The best way to find us is to go to T Me slash Reform Brotherhood. That is a link that you can put into any browser, t Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood.
It will take you to a Telegram Link. Telegram is a messaging app. You use Telegram?
[00:57:19] Jenn Schwamb: I do use Telegram.
[00:57:20] Jesse Schwamb: Are you in the Reform Brotherhood Telegram group?
[00:57:22] Jenn Schwamb: No, I'm not. I think I only recently learned that you had one and I was like, why?
[00:57:29] Jesse Schwamb: What?
[00:57:30] Jenn Schwamb: Who's in that?
[00:57:31] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, I'm so glad you asked. It's like you're setting me out.
Why? Because it's an amazing little corner of the internet where people who are listening to the podcast and love the Lord Jesus Christ come together to interact, to hang out. To share information with each other, to share memes, and there's like taste tests happening in there. I mean, you're missing out all kinds of stuff.
[00:57:48] Jenn Schwamb: Oh, well, I do love a taste
[00:57:49] Jesse Schwamb: test. Yes,
[00:57:50] Jenn Schwamb: we do those at work.
[00:57:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:57:51] Jenn Schwamb: Often. But I'm not joining your group.
[00:57:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, you do need to say that.
[00:57:56] Jenn Schwamb: Sorry,
[00:57:57] Jesse Schwamb: while we're recording,
[00:57:57] Jenn Schwamb: I mean, I'll definitely join it. Just send Jesse your telegram questions.
[00:58:04] Jesse Schwamb: All right. I'm happy to access the go between
[00:58:05] Jenn Schwamb: for me if you want to do. Taste has something
[00:58:08] Jesse Schwamb: in addition.
I want to say thank you. I know Jen does too, for everybody who listens, who gives financial aid to make the podcast possible. That's why this little makeshift kitchen recording studio happened and why we could get Jen on and why her voice sounds so MOUs and so good. It's because people give a little bit to make sure that a lot happens so that it gets posted and published and processed and all that good stuff.
It does cost money to keep it going, and thank you so much for joining us. If you want to join in on that, you can just go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood. So that's it. I'm gonna put you on the spot one last time. Is there any, any famous last words you wanna say? For what? About anything? Oh, this is your chance?
Oh, no. After all this time, is there anything, is there a message you wanna give to Tony?
[00:58:53] Jenn Schwamb: Is there a message I wanna give to
[00:58:54] Jesse Schwamb: Tony? Tony, he's, hes gonna specifically,
[00:58:56] Jenn Schwamb: he's gonna,
[00:58:56] Jesse Schwamb: he's gonna process this.
[00:58:57] Jenn Schwamb: No, I don't have a message that I wanna give to Tony. I'll give a message to your entire audience, which is, you all should give Jesse a hard time about the number of classic movies that he has not seen.
This
[00:59:07] Jesse Schwamb: seems
[00:59:07] Jenn Schwamb: like, 'cause that has been a topic of conversation recently. So why don't you light up his telegram with asking him why he hasn't seen movies like Forrest Gump
[00:59:18] Jesse Schwamb: Never
[00:59:18] Jenn Schwamb: Seen Or The Mighty Ducks.
[00:59:19] Jesse Schwamb: Never
[00:59:20] Jenn Schwamb: Well, or the Ghost. Well, you've seen Mighty Ducks now because I made you watch it.
[00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.
[00:59:23] Jenn Schwamb: And can we
[00:59:23] Jesse Schwamb: just talk about how.
I or
[00:59:25] Jenn Schwamb: Ghostbusters
[00:59:26] Jesse Schwamb: didn't realize, I've never seen it. Ha. I did not enjoy the My Ducks as much because the sheer number of penalties that are not called
[00:59:34] Jenn Schwamb: by the rest during That's true. Jesse. The entire movie while I was making him watch, it was just telling me about why that couldn't happen. That would never happen.
That's not allowed. And I was actually waiting for Keenan Thompson to show up because I thought he was in the Mighty Ducks, but he was in D two, which we then also watched. I was just waiting for Keenan.
[00:59:51] Jesse Schwamb: Not to mention it's just nonsensical. I don't understand how it went from like it's such a
[00:59:55] Jenn Schwamb: good movie.
[00:59:55] Jesse Schwamb: No, but it went from Peewee hockey to like the national, like you teen battling
[01:00:00] Jenn Schwamb: Iceland.
[01:00:00] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. And then I, I didn't see the third one. Did you watch it? One?
[01:00:04] Jenn Schwamb: We didn't watch it yet. Should we watch that after this it yet? Yeah. I have to watch that. It's on the Disney Plus watch list. And you haven't seen Sandlot?
No. It's a baseball movie.
[01:00:15] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. But
[01:00:15] Jenn Schwamb: there's a whole list of movies listeners that Jazzy Hass not seen. And I don't know why
[01:00:19] Jesse Schwamb: I've seen all the Star Wars movies. Do we need to, we
[01:00:22] Jenn Schwamb: haven't seen all those
[01:00:22] Jesse Schwamb: Explore the Rings.
[01:00:23] Jenn Schwamb: Yep. Nobody cares about
[01:00:24] Jesse Schwamb: about those. Do you need, see, have you seen Lord of the Rings
[01:00:26] Jenn Schwamb: a long time ago?
[01:00:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Now this is just turning into a conversation.
[01:00:30] Jenn Schwamb: This is just, we don't need, is this the podcast you all want? Is this what you're waiting for? I'm just saying write into Telegram about the movies that Jesse should definitely see and he'll let you know whether he's seen them and I'll make 'em watch them.
[01:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Well, you'd have to join the Telegram to know.
[01:00:46] Jenn Schwamb: No, well, all Tony will tell me.
[01:00:49] Jesse Schwamb: That is, that is true. Well, I'm so glad we finally got to this point because after, this is the encouragement, apparently everybody was looking forward. At least I was. So, I'm so glad you finally joined us. Let's not go another 10 years though, without, well,
[01:01:05] Jenn Schwamb: we'll see.
[01:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Without having gone the really,
[01:01:07] Jenn Schwamb: oh, we'll see what I don't, I think people are gonna listen to this and be like, please don't have her back ever again.
[01:01:12] Jesse Schwamb: Well, on that note, honor everyone
[01:01:15] Jenn Schwamb: love the brotherhood or sisterhood.