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Tony and Jesse geek out about their favorite Puritan, William Perkins, as they continue to work through Reformed Preaching by Joel Beeke

Jesse Schwamb 0:10
Welcome to Episode 153 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony and we are proud members of the Society of reformed podcast.

Hey, brother. Nothing you got nothing for me? Just leave me hanging there? Just gonna leave me hanging there like that?

Jesse Schwamb 0:40
I didn't hear it. Did you say something?

Tony Arsenal 0:42
I did. I said, Hey, brother, and you were like,

Jesse Schwamb 0:45
oh, it must cut out sorry that would that made me seem like I was just super rude and just bobbing of my head. I was waiting for the beginning of all this.

Tony Arsenal 0:52
It's all good. It's all good in the hood. How you doing? Man?

Jesse Schwamb 0:56
I'm doing all right. what's what's good with you, Tony, what is new that's happening in your world.

Tony Arsenal 1:02
Today is our seventh wedding anniversary. So that's exciting. Seven years yeah, graduations.

Jesse Schwamb 1:09
Yep, we, graduations

Tony Arsenal 1:11
still still feel like newlyweds? Sometimes, it's kind of hard to believe that it's been more than half a decade that we've been married. But life's good. Marriage is good. Church is good. Everything's good.

Jesse Schwamb 1:24
Yeah, thank you for taking away my affirmation, but OMB. That's okay. I want to affirm your marriage. I'm so glad that you're part of my family by way of marrying in by marrying my sister. But again, just loving that. We're also brothers in Christ, which is part of what started this whole epic journey to begin with. So it's true. I'm gonna, I'm going to affirm that, but I'll come in with something else when the time comes.

Tony Arsenal 1:48
Okay. Well, I think the time has come You want me to go first? Give you a little time.

Jesse Schwamb 1:51
has it come? Yeah, go ahead.

Tony Arsenal 1:53
So I'm affirming a podcast, called the average everyday worship leader podcasts. Have you ever heard of this podcast? I have heard of this. So it's not a reformed podcast. So there's a strike against it. But it is a good show with a really kind of funny, engaging host, who's a worship leader. And he talks about just kind of general kind of stuff having to do with leading worship, and specifically musical worship in the church. And what I think is really cool about this show is that he is intentional to kind of mentor the people who reach out to him in terms of his listeners. So he has a Facebook group, they are very active in the group, they talk about, like what songs they're going to sing. They sometimes will post their setlist or their worship, liturgy lists and kind of do feedback cycles. So it's, it's more than just a podcast. There's also kind of a community of worship leaders who've grown up around it. And I just think it's a cool sort of little show.

Jesse Schwamb 2:57
Yeah, I like this podcast, because just like so many other things in life, and especially so many other things in life vocation, with ministry or volunteer ministry, it's easy to think that the stuff that you have to contend with or thinking through or trying to do is unique to yourself. Yeah. So when you get to listen to somebody really trying to process and kind of explain how they go through the process of planning music, right? It makes you realize, Oh, good. I'm not the only one. And I love this podcast, because it's often given me new ideas to kind of bring some freshness into the liturgy. And so I just respect that it is a community of people that are like minded that are getting together. So it's a great way to kind of spur a little bit of creativity and also to identify with others who are in a similar type of ministry.

Tony Arsenal 3:38
Yeah, yeah. What about you? Did you come up with an alternate affirmation yet?

Jesse Schwamb 3:43
Yes. So I want to I want to affirm the first and primary affirmation, and that is that happy wedding anniversary? I can't seriously, I can't believe you've been married seven years. We feel super

Tony Arsenal 3:54
old. It's It's crazy. It feels like it went by so quick. But it on another level, it almost It feels like we've been married, like this is so normal life is so normal as a married couple. So it kind of feels like this is the way it's always been. But it's kind of surreal. Actually.

Jesse Schwamb 4:10
That's a testimony to a good marriage. Right? Yeah, this feels like it's always been this way. Not like in a bad sense. Yeah, it's just

Tony Arsenal 4:16
this is normal. Like, this is how life is supposed to be. So I love

Jesse Schwamb 4:22
as like a secondary and much lesser affirmation, I'm also going to affirm something that is audio, and I want to give you the opportunity to get on the ground floor of something that's going to be absolutely awesome. And I've recommended a lot of music on this podcast. And it may seem like I'm just out there trying to find music to affirm. But this year, for whatever reason, there's just been so much new music that's come out that's just kind of fallen into my lap. And so here's an example of something else that's just was just released. So this is ground level, because now you can get in on loving this band. When they released their first project before. They're like super cool. So there's a restaurant new group called empty. That's on solid state records that just released an album called hope and the loss of it. And I've been listening to this, like non stop for the past week. It's just fantastic. It's really amazing music, it is post hardcore. So that does mean, there's some wonderful screaming in it. But it's also very melodic. And the music is actually really diverse. There are several songs where if I played them for probably the average person, they say, Oh, yeah, like if I played it for my wife, she'd say, Oh, yeah, I can handle that until probably like the bridge. But that being said, it's a great album. So hope and the loss of it by empty on solid state records. Again, everybody get on the ground floor. And this you can be that person that says, Oh, I listened to empty when they weren't super popular. And they weren't, you know, super cool yet. You're super cool now, but you mean

Tony Arsenal 5:46
like a hipster? Yeah, you can be a hipster.

Jesse Schwamb 5:51
hipster. You too, can be hipster, just listen to empty. So I'm really curious, though, for what you're denying this week.

Tony Arsenal 5:59
So just as much as I affirmed the average everyday worship leader podcast, I am denying Todd who is the host of the average everyday worship leader podcast. So my wife, Ashley, is an avid listener of the show. She frequently calls into the show, she frequently posts in the Facebook group, she's very active. And a couple episodes ago, he was talking about Ashley, and he said something about her being a Vermonter. Which is it? Yeah, like, Oh, so so we live in New Hampshire. And you know, every state has, usually a bordering state that is their rival. So like, there's, you know, Minnesota Wisconsin rivalry, there's, you know, like Alabama, Mississippi, there's those rivalries. But of all of the places that I've had experienced the Vermont New Hampshire rivalry is a lot more intense than most. So I called him I called in I sent in a voicemail to Todd, it was very straightforward, very clear, explaining to him that he wounded my wife deeply when he said the wrong state, that he might as well just stabbed her right in the heart. And he just continued the next week, he referenced my voicemail. And he said something about hard Vermont winters. So I mean, if he wants to throw down on a podcast war, I think we could probably make that happen.

Jesse Schwamb 7:23
This is great. Let's draw the lines right here. The thing is, people are not for the most part, can understand exactly what you're talking about. But I would encourage everybody who's listening who is like, what is the big deal, think about whatever rivalry exists in your life, where that's where you went to school, and the rivalry of the school that you went to, or, again, if you have some kind of like, equivalent with the state, this is a super big deal. Because for a period of time, I worked in New Hampshire, on the border actually not far from where you work, right. And I was doing financial advising. And one of the things I learned very quickly is you just don't want to get that wrong. If you say to somebody that you presume they're from Vermont, and they're from New Hampshire, or even vice versa. You I was likely not to get any business. That's actually how strong it was. Yeah. So like, you never want to presume where somebody was from. And apparently, that's because the states are, like, super different in their philosophy and their ideology. Yeah, their history. So you know, because the Hampshire is like the Live Free or Die states, and everyone tends to be a lot more liberal. So you just don't want to get that wrong. So this is a real thing. The struggle on that is real. So I'm with you. I would not want anybody to say, oh, you're from Vermont. Originally? I would say you kiss your mother with that. I would definitely not be. I would definitely not take that lightly.

Tony Arsenal 8:38
Yeah, I mean, so like, just to give a little example of the difference between the two. In New Hampshire, there was a proposal at one point that New Hampshire residents may somehow need to pay sales tax if they bought something out of state. And our governor was like, nope, we're never, we're never working with that state again, get out of our get our state, then Vermont is the home of Bernie Sanders. So it's like, it's like the the least taxed state in the country. And like one of the most tax state in the country. And I I literally live, like 30 minutes from the border. I've had patients at the hospital, who complained to me because my secretary accidentally said the wrong state when they were verifying an address. So it's not it's not a small deal, Todd, it's not a small deal. So I know that you're joking. I know that you think this is funny, but I'm coming for you because it's not a joke.

Jesse Schwamb 9:35
Yes, I have a message for Todd Todd, how dare you? How dare

Tony Arsenal 9:39
you? How

Jesse Schwamb 9:40
dare you? How dare you? All right. It's definitely a big deal. So I'm with you on that.

Tony Arsenal 9:45
So other than Vermont, what are you denying?

Jesse Schwamb 9:49
So my denial is is not quite as a weighty as yours. But that that seems to be our pattern. So I don't know if you actually have this in New Hampshire. This there's a strange phenomenon in our grocery stores, where they've implemented a new piece of technology. So of course, the mood in the grocery store from the person who's checking you out to the self checkout. And that's convenient most of the time. But they've introduced a robot. Do you have this in your grocery stores yet?

Unknown Speaker 10:16
A robot?

Jesse Schwamb 10:18
Yes. So I'm going to send it to you while I while I speak of this thing, and in our little chat here. But basically, they've introduced a robot. His name is Marty. And to describe this, he's like a, he has wheels. And he has a kind of wide base and a very narrow body, and he's probably about six feet tall, and they suck giant googly eyes on him, I think to make him seem more presentable, or at least more comedic. But his job is he just drives around the grocery store. And he tries to alert the other employees when there is some kind of like potential safety has like a spill of liquid or something on the floor. And he makes a little noisiest sensors. He doesn't run into people, but he's super creepy. And there have been several times where, actually this happens to me a lot in the dairy aisle. And for whatever reason, I'm usually like, looking very in a concentrated manner at yogurt. And I turned around and Marty is a right there like right in my face, and it's really, really freaky. Did you get the link Dyson

Tony Arsenal 11:20
Yeah, he looks like a weird cross between a Roomba and Gumby and Gumby description, does he melt through all his

Jesse Schwamb 11:33
nose? I mean, maybe this could be like a terminator thing. I have no idea. So he just turns around, he makes this kind of like incessant beeping noise, like you're aware that he's there. But it's a kind of fairly creepy technology. And when I look this up online, there's a lot of strong responses to this. So I guess I'm kind of denying against it only because in an effort to make him seem more relational with these like giant googly eyes, they slept on him because that's not necessarily necessary. It Yeah, made him more creepy to me. And I wasn't sure if this is other people in the country got to be experiencing this. I think it's probably a common thing. Now. It's some type of, you know, technology that's being rolled out in all kinds of grocery stores. But I was more curious if you've ever experienced this before, but it sounds like not yet.

Tony Arsenal 12:14
know we are safe from the robot overlords. You know, I know that you're not a Doctor Who fan. But if you were a Doctor Who fan you would look at this and immediately think that this looks like a Dalek, which is like the big evil robots from the show. And like, if you like cover up his googly eyes and look down towards the base, he's got this like, red sensor I and he looks like a mean robot. He just looks mean.

Jesse Schwamb 12:41
Yeah, it's definitely interesting. There was actually a article in one of our local papers. And I think this was tongue in cheek, although I honestly couldn't tell that some woman was finally complete with the grocery store that she had been sexually harassed by Marty. Yeah, in some way. Which, maybe that that did happen. He's I mean, he looks like he's a suspicious character anyway.

Tony Arsenal 13:04
I mean, really is like that. It's not a surprise. Ah, that's actually pretty clever.

Jesse Schwamb 13:09
Everybody should look this up if you just type in like Marty grocery store robot. Also, I'm a little bit disturbed by the use of the word art named Marty for him.

Tony Arsenal 13:17
I also wonder why they don't just if I mean, if they're going to make a robot, why don't they just go all the way and make a robot that can just clean up the spill?

Unknown Speaker 13:25
Yes, I've thought about that. Like, it seems like

Tony Arsenal 13:27
this is a Roomba with really advanced sensors. But why not just get a Roomba? Right? Like room is king. enough liquid spills? Seems? I thought you were gonna say that. It's a robot that helps check you out, like at the register. And I was like, this is how this is how Terminator starts.

Jesse Schwamb 13:47
Yes.

Tony Arsenal 13:48
coming in for us. And I hope that they go after Todd first.

Jesse Schwamb 13:54
We're gonna send Todd mighty is coming for you. He won't do anything. He just tear you down. He's gonna clean up that spill.

Unknown Speaker 14:01
Blue boom. Well,

Jesse Schwamb 14:06
I think if I'm not mistaken, that is the perfect segue into what we're talking about today. Yes, I know.

Tony Arsenal 14:15
But I'm sure that it is.

Jesse Schwamb 14:17
Oh, it's perfect. I don't even think I think if we were to try to explain why it's perfect. Right now people be like, yeah, we get it already. Yeah, we don't need to go there. So good. But we're back in book cast. Here's another episode of the book cast. And I want to reiterate, it's not too late to join us in the reading of reform preaching by Dr. Joel Viki, because we're just, we're just in chapter nine. And we're taking our sweet time to go through the book because we're, we're sucking the marrow out of this thing. We're enjoying it, relishing it or metabolize it. And so we're on the chapter now we're getting into Puritan preachers. And I am super stoked, because like we talked about in the last book cast for like the periods is sometimes get a bum rap. And that's just because they're people, people don't even understand that there's a lot of ignorance with the Puritans, myself included in that mix. So it was great to read this first chapter chapter nine on the Puritans about William Perkins, who, as we were talking before we recorded like, he's kind of our boy, I guess, I kind of fanboy it a little bit in this chapter.

Tony Arsenal 15:15
Yeah. I mean, William Perkins, is one of those figures that so understated and overshadowed. But he really is so much more central to the reformed movement as a whole, then I think, then I think nearly anybody recognizes, so this might come as a shock to some people. But like, if Jonathan Edwards just fell off the map, then Reformed theology would not be all that different than it is like, Jonathan Edwards is a good example of a figure who is reformed who had influenced because of his historical context, but in terms of actually developing Reformed theology. He's really not all that influential. However, William Perkins, the father of Puritanism. So there are there are some people that come before him that you could consider Puritans. But in terms of actually like fostering and spawning a movement, William Perkins really is it because he, he's the one that developed kind of the Puritan method of preaching. And he's the one that sort of spread that into the academy and into the seminary, for the next generation of preachers in England, and then into the Americas, to really bring into their mindset and to shape their preaching after probably for at least three or four generations of preachers. William Perkins was like the gold standard. So I don't think you can under emphasize how important he is, you know, we talked about in the last chapter about Puritan preaching sort of generically, how the fact is that for Puritans, preaching was the vehicle that God used to accomplish everything he was doing in England, whether it was personal transformation, cultural transformation, church reformation, political changes, every everything that was being done in and by the Puritans, they sought to do it through the act of preaching. And that's how they worked. And William Perkins really is the one who sort of architected the model of preaching that that that really gave that shape and form. And I would argue, that gave it its power, because Perkins model is basically just preach the scriptures, right? just teach what the Scriptures do plainly and simply and consistently, and that will change lives. And I mean, that's so simple and straightforward, but at the same time, it was also so revolutionary.

Jesse Schwamb 17:35
Yeah, in fact, of Perkins, beaky, says he was the bridge between the Geneva and reformed thought of john Calvin and Theodore Basie, who we talked about, and like the English and I would extend that to like the American Puritans who followed him right just to give like some sense of like, really his influence even in his own life at the time of his death. BK notes that Perkins writings in England were outselling those of Calvin Baeza and Ballinger combined. Yeah. So even in his own lifetime, there was recognition that what he was doing by way of I, like we said, kind of the Grand architect of the spirits in style, that this had a heavy influence on the church at the time. And I would say like, you know, subsequent, his death, even still persists, like people quote, his writing all the time, we've talked about the art of prophesied, which is one of the most famous works in terms of an actual text for how to approach the scriptures through preaching, that continues to impact people's lives, that that continues to be almost like an internal contemporary when it comes to trying to build the proper rubric which to approach the scriptures, by way of preaching. And what I think is really great about this chapter is I think there's sometimes we pick up a book like this. There's wonderful anecdotes that we can learn about people. And what BE does a really good job as thrusting us in not just to these anecdotes, but into the person themselves and their convictions and the theology which is born out of their preaching? And so one of the things that I found really great is that this this emphasis that Perkins had, and which became it out of the sensuality, of sovereign grace, yeah, in preaching, and this is where I think there's a lot for us to learn in a modern context, because Perkins believe that a biblical understanding of God's sovereign grace in predestination is a vital for spiritual comfort insurance. Yeah. And so predestination is the hope is the expectations that guarantee of salvation for for the true believer. And oftentimes, Reformed theology, as you know, gets characterized in such a way that really the worst thing about it is the sovereign grace of God right manifested in predestination. And here you have, I think, rightly, from the beginning most of his ministry, you have Perkins emphasizing that we got that twisted that predestination is actually the greatest act of God's love and spiritual comfort,

Tony Arsenal 19:46
right. Yeah. And one thing before we really launched too far into actually talking about the chapter that for one reason or another Dr. Becky doesn't bring out is, you know, Jacob Armenia's, in a lot of ways was kind of oppressive problem created by Theodore Bazan, right, Armenia studied under bezza. In a lot of ways Armenia was responding to what many myself included, would call sort of an overemphasis basis part on Super lap Syrian ism base, it takes what Calvin taught, and he sort of kicks it up a notch into a place that I think probably goes a little too far. And so our ministry is a negative reaction to what I think was a mistake that I made in his theology. And so in a lot of ways, Perkins then comes along and becomes our minibuses primary opponent in the whole discussion. So are many is, you know, we think about Calvin and versus Armenians, but they would not have had it any if, if at all, any interaction with each other, and Bay's, once our mini is kind of goes off on his own direction base, it doesn't interact with our minions directly much at all. But because of the culture and the contacts with some of the political things going on, Perkins was actually in a much better position to have that head to head conflict with our minis. And he really takes him to task in a lot of ways. And so Perkins as a reformed Calvinistic thinker, really is the person who approaches and addresses Armenian theology in England. And so in a very real sense, the fact that Armenian theology never really took hold in England in terms of Armenia as proper and the Armenian remonstrance. The reason it ever took foothold there is largely because of the work and influence of William Perkins. So you can't under emphasize theologically enough, how much that the Presbyterian Calvinist tradition and then obviously, the reformed Baptist tradition, which goes out of it, how much we and I would say, we like you. And I represent in our own ways, that British Presbyterian and Baptist tradition, and we really excellent debt of gratitude, to William Perkins, for standing up against that and doing so, so clearly and specifically and articulately, that they're really was no chance for Armenian ism to become a thing in the British Isles, or in Scotland, for that matter. So his role in the development and defense of Reformed theology in the reformation, and the second reformation, and the Reformation really can't be under over overemphasized.

Jesse Schwamb 22:18
And that partly goes back to what you've already stated about really Perkins commitment to preaching the scriptures, which has been a theme, of course, that we repeated several times, we've gone through these different examples. But here you see it in action. And that is he's properly XG in the scriptures and explaining the purpose and the role of predestination in a way that is, I think, foreign to some listeners, because that seems to be a pejorative word. These days, let's be absent love and graciousness and mercy and kindness. Unless you're really grown up in the reformed tradition, or maybe you've just, you know, invested some time into studying what it actually represents, in that particular stream right up the logical thought. And so what I want to kind of get into is because that not only do we have like a great man, who's a great PR person, preacher, and has great skill set that effect. But there's something interesting about Perkins in this way, because he held as you already said, like this super left Syrian doctrine of double predestination. So I want to get into this a little bit with you, because I think this is really fascinating. And here's why we look at these men who are great preachers, it's how they understand the scriptures, and bring that into the lives by way of practical submission to it in their behavior. And so for anybody like for just a quick look through it, like a quick definition of what I would call, like, a quick definition, a super lap Syrian ism, in case that we're just like, straight smacks, and people across the face like what the heck is that? So, super left Satanism, especially, as I think, as I'm going to say, like Perkins would have subscribed to it is this view that God contemplating man is yet and fallen, chose some to receive eternal life and rejected all others. So a super left Syrian would say that the reprobate, the non elect vessels of wrath, that are fitted for destruction that we get from Romans nine, we're first ordained to that rule, and that the means by which they fell into sin was ordained. So in other words, super left sadism suggests that God's decree of election logically preceded his decree to permit Adams fall so that their damnation is, first of all, an act of divine sovereignty, and only secondarily an act of divine justice. Right. And I want to throw that out there. Because I want to get your sense, like, what do you think of how Perkins is using that and expressing this doctrine as something that is a spiritual comfort and source of assurance? Like why is it important that that was the the center of a lot of his ministry?

Tony Arsenal 24:30
Yeah, I mean, you and I have been pretty clear on what we think about super lab Satanism and some of the logical consequences. But right, what Perkins is strong in, I think that someone like I think beta in my reading of him is his weekend, is he really does try to stick close to the Scriptures, especially in his preaching. So where sometimes the the super lap Syrian ism of beta and some of those following him in Geneva can get a little bit more speculative and sometimes can abstract itself from the biblical witness the super lap Syrian ism of Perkins, even though I think in the long run, it's still kind of comes to the same place where God is sort of arbitrarily choosing some where his act in election and his act in reparation, that those are actually equally ultimate, I think that Perkins kind of ends in the same place. But Perkins does have this sort of unique feature in his super lap Syrian ism, where predestination is always in Christ. And so even though I think logically, he probably ends in the same place where there's that equal ultimately, because his election is in Christ specifically. And his representation is not in Christ, obviously. Then there is a distinction and a difference in the the act of God in a lackey and rubber baiting, that I think helps to hedge him a little bit. So I think that he's able, because he's so crystal centric in his doctrine of election, he's able to bring forward this super relapse airiness. And that is, is technically articulate, but it's also winsome. And he's able to bring that forward to those that he's preaching to, to say genuinely, if you are in Christ, then in a certain sense, not in a not in like an eternal justification sense. But in a certain sense, you've always been in Christ. And for those who are elect, I mean, that's that's true, whether you're a super lap Syrian or an emperor lap, Syrian. But the fact that he brings that forward, I think, is why his doctrine can be so much comfort to those who are at times questioning their salvation, is because they recognize that if you're in if you're in the sun, then you're in the sun, and you've always been in the sun. And not only can nothing snatch you out of his hand, but nothing could have ever prevented you from take from him taking hold of you. So I think that's where his theology becomes really pastoral and really strong.

Jesse Schwamb 26:51
Yeah, and it's great because he's, I think, appropriately drawing out what a source of love that is, for God. This goes back to something we quoted before fusions one, five, we often forget the preposition that precedes that verse, which is in love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, right? So he's appropriately hitting on the fact that the scriptures make it clear that predestination isn't just this matter of God arbitrarily choosing, like you said, I think there's good balance, and he's bringing in terms of how he's applying this scripture. But it's also an active that the highest act of love and mercy. And he, what I love about him is he doesn't shy away from these things. So a lot of his preaching was focused on or came out of that super left center view. But he also embraced double predestination. And I think for the most part, when you say double predestination, like that fires a lot of people up, because for the reform people they interpret that as, as a caricature of what they believe. And for those that are minion, or perhaps of other theological persuasion, they view that as well. This is exactly the thing that's wrong with Calvinist right, and the reformed tradition is that you're saying, God actively chooses to send some people and make them reprobate send them to hell, and he actively chooses to save others, even if we're saying in Christ, right. And so like, in sharp contrast to that caricature of the double predestination that's seen in that positive positive schema, you have, I think, with Perkins, this more classic position or form theology on predestination and double predestination. So under Perkins, what you get, and this is why he's just so great, so articulate about this is, predestination is double. It involves both election and representation. But it's not symmetrical with respect to mode of divine activity. I think that's like the critical thing. We as reform people need to be able to express to people when they bring that argument against this, because a strict parallelism of operation is absolutely denied when we say that, right? So instead, we have up as a nation in terms of a positive negative relationship. So what Perkins brings forward is this view that God from all eternity decrease some to election, and positively intervenes in their lives, work, regeneration, and faith by a monotheistic work of grace, and to the non elect God withholds this majestic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. So he's, he's not like modern, artistically working sin or unbelief into their lives. And that's often where this argument descends into, because what happens is, people bring this caricature against it. And Perkins did such a great job of, I think, clarifying that and bring it into this light in sphere of how we live and understand God to work.

Tony Arsenal 29:31
Right. And and this is part of why it's important to recognize sort of his position in the sequence of development, because so basic comes forward. And he really does in some of his writing, seem to express this, this idea of equal ultimate See, where the act of God in election is identical to the act of of God and representation, in that he is arbitrarily arbitrarily choosing destinies for people irrespective of their sin or their their, you know, futures are meaningless respond strongly to that. And and, you know, for all it's worth our mini us was a genius like Armenia's was not a dumb guy, he was a crisp scholar, he understood for the most part, what beta was saying. And he, he brought forward a critique that basically says that, that makes God his act in representing the same as his act in electing and so our minions in responding to that critique of basis theology by Armenia's, he developed this asymmetrical predestined predestination model, where the elect are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, right right out of effusions one into their chosen in Christ, and God's act in electing them is active. Whereas act in in reprobate in which we can't say that it's passive, because God God is pure act, everything he does is a positive act. But he's act right and rapper baiting is different than his act in electing because his choice in rapper baiting is to not make provision for that person to have eternal life through Christ. Now, where I think it gets a little inconsistent at times, is that there's no good reason for the reprobate person to not to even need Christ apart from a view of sin. And we talked about that we did an episode on the article, the Ordo Salinas and we also did one specifically on Super lap Syrian ism and info at Syrian ism. And in those episodes, he made the argument that God must be arbitrarily electing if he's not considering sin. And a lot of the most common models of super lap Syrian ism actually do incorporate somehow that God is, is electing sinners for salvation, which we argued was just logically inconsistent. But Perkins really does bring forward this concept that anything that God gives to the to the created order, anything that God positively gives to them as a blessing comes through Christ, and the most supreme thing that he gives, that is evident in that is salvation or redemption, or unity with Christ itself.

Jesse Schwamb 32:13
Right. And I think we should think about what all of that means, practically speaking. And this is what BQ does a really good job at in commenting about Perkins, because He notes that Perkins believe that predestination was the means by which God manifested the glory of the Godhead outside of himself to the human race. Yeah. And I thought that to be a very profound statement, because if that is true, then the other question we should ask are, what are the implications for mitigating or roading or otherwise suddenly diminishing God's autonomous decision making in predestination? Because if that statement is true, that this is the way in which God is outside of himself, demonstrating his glory and power to the human race, when we take that away? What are we doing now into the glory of God, but yeah, to how we understand his character to be, I think this is why it was so important to Perkins is because he saw this as a means by which God was demonstrating that he's all powerful. And when you think about it, is there anything almost Is there anything actually, that demonstrates the power of God, like God's ability to essentially decide the eternal destiny or fate of any single human person? I mean, I don't think there is, I think we can even argue that compared to that, even his ability to affect all of creation, every molecule of the natural world outside of human ability and reality, that pales in comparison, because this is what people get so offended about is that God would be able to choose on his own outside of my own volition, and will allegedly, to cast my eternal destiny, that is the most offensive thing. And so it just strikes me as here we have Perkins saying, No, you misunderstand this is this is how God is primarily just demonstrating his glory. And we so easily want to take the right away?

Tony Arsenal 34:00
Yeah, I mean, I think when you look at Perkins theology, and just Reformed theology as a whole, you know, there's, there's a school of thought that wants to say that every theological system has sort of this, like Central, defining and arranging or ordering principle. And there's some strength to that it's not it doesn't work in all circumstances. But there's some strength to that, to that idea. And the common critique of Reformed theology is that it makes predestination, the central unifying theme, or the central dogma of the religion. But in point of fact, it's not predestination, it's the supremacy and glory of God. That is the central feature of Reformed theology, and an Armenian ism, looks at that, and what what happens, and this this quote that you pulled out here, from BQ, which is on page 161, I'm going to read it again. It says Perkins, believe that predestination is the means by which God manifest the glory of the Godhead outside of himself to the human race. So if we hold as we do, that the glory of God is the supreme reality, and that all other reality is arranged in order around it, it should not be a surprise, then that when we point to the glory of God, and we try to point to what it is that God does in creation, to to magnify, and to emphasize His glory, it is his sovereign choice of who will be his people, and who will not be as people, right? So right. So you and I, we have a sovereignty in our lives to decide who we wish to associate with. If I don't like my job, I can quit my job. If I don't like the person who lives next to me, I can move somewhere else, I have the freedom to determine in a certain sense, who will be my people who will be the people that I associated with. And so as as reformed Christians, really all we're saying when we talk about God's glory, and and predestination, as it relates to that is that God has the freedom to choose who he will associate with, who will be his people who will bear his name, metaphysical and ontological, who will be the glorified saints of God and who will not. And so our minion theology strikes at the very heart of that, that God doesn't have the right to tell anyone, that they won't be his people. And so if, if God is to be adjust God on our minion ism, he has to give everybody the equal opportunity to be his people. And and we just don't recognize that anywhere else in the world that that is what's required to be fair if I invite if I invite one person to a party, and I don't invite everybody to the party, we don't we don't suddenly say, well, that's a fundamentally unjust, unjust principle. We recognize that as relatively autonomous beings, we have a right to choose who we wish to associate with, and who we choose not to associate with. And so why we would rob god of that in order to somehow here's the answer, we rob god of that, in order to make ourselves the autonomous center of reality, whereas Reformed theology has always articulated that God is the only autonomous central reality and everything else, including who will be saved, and who will not his order around him and his glory, and he has a right to choose that.

Jesse Schwamb 37:13
Right. And there's this issue as well, I think it's Perkins establishes that it's not just is, of course, mainly about the sovereignty of God. But also he connects that with why in a sense, do you believe think that God would do it this way, and that is to demonstrate His glory because of a lesser Armenian argument that says something to the extent of, well, I'm not debating that God is sovereign. In fact, he is actually sovereign over human destiny and fate. But he holds that sovereignty in a bands, so he allows the human beings to choose whether or not to accept him. The problem with that, besides being illogical Is that what it breaks is, if God if God's greatest goal, essentially so to speak, is the manifestation of His glory. The way that He manifests is that glory isn't his autonomy, then he would, by his own right, demonstrate that in the most profound sense, which is to show that his autonomy means that he can set the fate of human beings right. So God is returning glory to himself, by way of mercy to the elect and justice to the reprobate. And so it's consistent with his character and therefore logically inconsistent, that he would hold that in a Benz because by doing that, it actually demonstrates a less of His glory, right, rather than more of it. Yeah. And so I think Perkins just has a really good job of drawing us into by way of his preaching this reality. And then he layers on top of that, this sense, where he's like, Listen, you may have been taught that this was a bad thing. This is love you every nation, even itself will lovingly urges the elect to seek further exercise of grace, and to make their calling of election sure in Christ to test yourself and for the ungodly, it moves them to examine themselves for marks of election. So I think part of what we're experiencing in our contemporary culture with respect to preaching in the evangelical sphere, is a lack of understanding reformation is something that is loving, and to your point, we just don't operate this way. In any other place in life. We Yeah, we want. We want this kind of God who is in control of all things, especially or eternal destiny. But I'm trying to think of other examples. Now. They're just escaping me, but your example of like, the party thing is really right on. And where do we get that sense of justice from where we get the sense that like, that autonomy, this decision is not of its own nature? Yeah, reflective of injustice.

Tony Arsenal 39:41
Yeah, and you know, the other example that I can think of is, you know, I'm a manager. And one of the tasks that I've been delegated by the institution that pays me is to make hiring decisions about who will work in my section. And so the first step of that is, you know, I get, I get a pool of candidates, and I look at the candidates, I make a decision about who's going to come in to do an interview, and who I'm probably not even going to send an email to, to say that I'm not considering them. Like, honestly, you get so many candidates, you can't even email them all, sometimes. And so I make a decision to bring someone in for an interview. That is me exercising the sovereignty that has been delegated to me by my employer, to make decisions about who will be an employee and who will not. And so, so for me to just be like, well, I'm actually going to let the candidates decide whether they work here, because I'm so I'm so loving and so generous, that I'm going to bring all the candidates in, and I'm going to tell them, well, if you want to work here, that's up to you, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to make the decision for you, I would be a terrible manager at that point, like I would be a bad manager, I would be abusing the authority that I have, by by neglecting to exercise it. And in a certain sense, you know, the the Armenian position, wants to, on one hand, say, God is so loving that he offers everybody a chance to come to salvation. But he's not quite loving enough to actually save everyone. Right? So, you know, it's funny, because people will talk about, like all what God's a gentleman, he's not going to force himself on you. And that, that's fine. And that works fine when you when you picture, the relationship here as one of a romantic interaction. But in reality, if I was walking down the street, and I was coming up to a bridge, and there was a person who was about to jump off the bridge, and I grabbed them, and I held them tight, and I prevented them from jumping off the bridge, no one is going to tell me that I violated their freedom, and that I was actually hateful, by forcing them not to kill themselves, they would look at that. And and they would probably say, you know, that's a heroic act, because you've saved a person's life, it doesn't matter that you've acted against their will. Now maybe in our current political environment, and our current sort of medical ethics environment, there might actually be some question about that. But everybody knows, like, when you stop someone from taking their own life, you are you are imposing your will on them, and you are violating their will, you are inhibiting their freedom, and everybody is just fine with that. But all the sudden, when we come to these matters of eternal suicide, which is what damnation is we choose to do we choose to resist the life that is offered to us in the Gospel, we choose to spit in the face of the author of life himself. And we choose to plummet to our own destruction by our own choices. Well, God stop some of us from doing that. And rather than Look at that, and go, Well, he violated your will, you know, he's not fair, he didn't save everybody, we should look at that and say, it is the supreme act of grace that he has saved anybody. And even more. So now, if you imagine that scenario with me walking up to the bridge, and it was actually someone who just murdered my wife, and I still went to the extra step of saving them from their own their own suicide tendencies. People would look at that and say, Man, this person, this must really be an act of someone who loves life and wants this person to live, because he had overlooked and he overcame a grievous sin against him and still acted in this person's best interest, and are many in theology. And, you know, I didn't really think that this was going to turn into like an anti Armenian episode. But I guess I maybe should have anticipated it. Perkins brings out the fact that God's act in overcoming the will of the sinners, that that not only is an act of grace and love that we should be thankful for. But it's something that should give the elect great assurance. Because as I said earlier, it's not just that, it's not just that no one can snatch us out of the hand of Christ. But no one could have stopped Christ from taking hold of us in the first place. And that should give us assurance that if we are in Christ, we are in Christ indeed, and we will never not be in Christ.

Jesse Schwamb 43:58
I think that's actually a really, like, legitimately, a really good segue into, I think, a good way to wrap up our conversation with Perkins. And that's in this other theme that he really made central to all of his preaching. And that was effectual calling and faith. Yeah. And I want to talk about this briefly. Because I think in this chapter, there was so much that stirred my heart toward encouragement in what Perkins represented here. And so I want to share a quote from page 162. So in the words of Perkins, the preaching of the word accomplishes two things. And here's the quote, the law showing a man his sin and punishment thereof, which is eternal death, and the gospel showing salvation by Christ Jesus, to such as believe. And so here's this wonderful idea, like we talked about so many times, how do we bridge how do we come together with and coalesce the the law and the gospel the law basically saying is it wounds it cuts, it hurts, it's deep. It pains us and the Gospels is wonderful sow which binds up which heals it. So the product of effectual calling is saving faith which Perkins defined, going on 162 as a miraculous, and supernatural faculty of the heart, apprehending Christ Jesus, being applied by the operation of the Holy Ghost, and receiving it to itself. Yeah. And so I love this, because this is great clarification here is great preaching, because it's clarifying for us that the object of faith is not the center. It's not as experience. It's not faith itself. It is in Christ Jesus alone. And it does not even have to be big, strong faith, because it's not about the size of the faith itself. This is something weird now, when it's about the one in who we are trusting about the obedience in the person of Jesus Christ. Yes,

Tony Arsenal 45:40
yeah. And you know, this, this is something that has been a repeated theme on our show is the relationship between faith and sanctification and repentance. And one of the things that I don't think you can get out of this chapter, and not recognize is that for Perkins, faith is entirely something that is given to the sinner by God. And, and repentance is something that is also given to the sinner by God, but it's also something that the sinner does. But for Perkins, faith is not something that the sinner does. Faith is something that the sinner receives. And then that medium or that instrument is used by God to deliver or to bring about salvation. And so, you know, Perkins has this, this golden chain, right? When we think about the concept of a reformed auto Salinas, what we really are thinking about is developed by Perkins. Now it's not as though no one had talked about like the logical relationships between the steps or phases of relationship of salvation before. But Perkins and I have with me the, the works of William Perkins, volume six, which was edited by Dr. beaky published by reformation heritage books, and they have a full like 11 by 17 inch legal replicant of his golden chain. And what's interesting is you have if you look, you can look up this diagram online. Repentance is way down on the order salute. So you know, you and I have kind of come down that repentance and faith are kind of flip sides of the same coin. And justification is kind of the edge of that coin, right? So you have faith on one side justification is sort of happens logically between them, and then repentance happens immediately in their side. But if you look at it, Perkins has effectual preaching in hearing the mollifying of the heart, faith which all falls under effectual calling, and then he has remission of sin, amputation of righteousness, which falls under justification. And then he has mortification and Vivek vacation, which falls under sanctification. And he sub divides vilification to include repentance. So repentance, not only is not prior to justification, it's actually sort of on the tail end of sanctification, logically speaking, because you have to die to sin in order to come alive to Christ in in sanctification. And repentance actually comes at the very end of the sanctification concept in the artist lose for Perkins, and this is this is why it's important is that for Perkins, he was very keen to make sure that justification, the reception of Christ's righteousness by the the redeem sinner, is absolutely utterly an act of God and not in any sense, an act of the person being redeemed. And so that's part of why he highlights and lands on predestination so firmly, is because, you know, from the very beginning of our of our salvation which began in eternity past, when God predestined us in Christ before the foundation of the world, for unity and communion with Christ, that folds in time in Christ, taking, taking responsibility, and making sure that we become united to him through faith, and in that union. That's where justification occurs. But then after that union has occurred, logically speaking, not necessarily temporarily, after that union has occurred and justification is taken place, then we come to life in Christ. And that's what we repent, we repent, as new life sinners, as in those who have received new life. That's when we repent, not prior to union with Christ, not prior to justification, but after we have already been made alive in Christ is when we repent, logically speaking, and Perkins, you can't under emphasize that point. And here's why I think it's crucial for us to understand is because in the reformed tradition, right, there are those in the reformed tradition. When I say that this is the reformed position, I don't mean that there's never been anybody within the reformed tradition who's held different view. But within the reformed tradition, repentance has been placed within sanctification consistently, in order to preserve the other monetarism that happens in justification. Because if we as a as a creature, Repent, and that in some sense, causes or contributes to our justification, the justification is no longer mana logistic. And now justification has become a shared work between God and the creature. Now, sanctification is not necessarily a shared work between God and the creature. And that's why I think it's really important. That's why this this chart that Perkins has is so interesting is that although repentance is attached to vacation for him, and he defines sanctification as sort of the combination of mortification and vilification, repentance is attached to that, but it doesn't actually fall under that category. So he sub divides repentance out, not as part of sanctification, but as a consequence of sanctification. And I think that that's so important, because our assurance is in the acts of Christ, not in what he, what he enables us to do not in the good works that are wrought out of our sanctification, but in the fact that in Christ, we are justified and sanctified, we know for sure that will be glorified. And because of all those things, these good works, including repentance, naturally, unnecessarily flow out of it.

Jesse Schwamb 51:28
And here again, you see that great comfort and joy that is both biblical and pastoral as Perkins represents them, because how many times? I mean, how many times have you heard of people being told things like, you know what, the reason why you're sick is because you don't have enough faith. The reason why these are often Your life is because you don't have enough. Yeah, the reason why God is far from you, is because you don't have the right kind of faith. Yeah. And he was saying is that even the person who says that they lack faith, you should go to the one from whom the faith comes itself, and trust in that person, knowing that you do not have to manufacture something, you have to elevate, escalate your feelings, to some kind of degree of emotionalism so that you have a sense that you are actually in faith, but it's being in Christ and Christ providing that faith, by his gift through the cross through the Holy Spirit. I love that he he put those in this quote from Charles Manson with respect to faith and how Perkins saw it by saying there's on page 162, as well, which is apparently amazing page. So if you're looking for a good page in the chapter, but 162 months and says, Faith and saves the elect, not because it is a perfect virtue, but because the upper hands up perfect object Yeah, which is the obedience of Christ, where their faith is weak or strong, does not matter for salvation rests on God's mercy, and promises. That just floors me, because it draws me to my knees to say, God, you are so great that you would see not only this amazing weakness in all of humanity, that you would condescend to the giving of your son to come and be like us, but that you yourself will be the one that would give us the thing that we could not create a manufacturer on our own, and then sustain that very thing to the end, with without exception. And so it's that that faith being given an irrevocable sense. And so this is the great value of Perkins preaching, because it seems like on the face, that there's what we've talked about here can come into this realm of what's just a lot of complicated theology. And at the end of the day, it's really not, it's that God is sovereign and control that he is the progenitor of faith, and that he holds us in His hand until the very end. And so, Perkins understood that and preach that, because he was rooted in this theology in a deep way. And when we rip up those roots, or when we have shallow roots, what we never get is shallow preaching, which leads to shallow living, confusion, fear, disregard for God, and we have so much of that, in our in our just modern culture. You know, incidentally, if you want to do something really super cool. And this came to my mind, as you were talking about the golden chain, which is referenced in this particular chapter, you can actually go to Puritan publications calm. And why wouldn't you? So let me just say it this way, you should go to Puritan publications calm. And one of the things you can do once you're there is you can actually order a print of this golden chain, or at least like you said, Go and check it out, go find the image for this because it's exceptional. And this particular image is how Perkins at least understood what they kind of the course or the causes of salvation and domination according to God's word. It's a really incredible graphic right? In front of you. It's it's not, it's not simple in the sense that, like, you'll see if you look it up, it's really elaborate. It's really thought provoking. And you can buy for $19. We tax included evidently, and 11. By 17, professionally printed version of this from peer to publication. com, I actually just think this would be an amazing thing to have, honestly, I framed in your living room, because it would always be this kind of thought provoking the always be before your eyes thinking about, we just fail to appreciate how exceptional it is that God has saved us. Yeah, how exceptional his power is, as it's manifested in his Thomas control over predestination. And this chart, at least grows my heart to come to appreciate it in a little bit different way.

Tony Arsenal 55:14
Yeah. I'll tell you what, Jesse, the next time we're in New Jersey for vacation, we're going to go and we're going to get matching tattoos of Perkins causes an order of salvation on our back, like all the way down our back.

Jesse Schwamb 55:29
Because that's the only place you could fit it, right? Because we're talking about a huge chart.

Tony Arsenal 55:33
Yeah, it's it's it's hard to read like a lot of the stuff you find online, it's hard to read. And you know that this is really what it all comes down to with Perkins. I'm going to string a couple quotes together here. So on page 172, beaky says that this is a summary of Perkins, theology of preaching, he says, in the hands of the Holy Spirit's, the preacher is an instrument for the execution of the Divine Decree of the election. And then he goes on to say that this is how Perkins summarize the task of a preacher. And then you know, who is that instrument of and how to be that instrument. He says this, this is Perkins. This is the sum of the sun, so like the ultimate summary, preach one Christ, by Christ, to the praise of Christ. And if you do that, according to preach, according to Perkins, that preaching will be efficacious to bring about the salvation of the elect, because God has empowered you as a duly ordained minister of the word, to be that instrument of the Holy Spirit. And when that instrument of the Holy Spirit preaches Christ by Christ, to the praise of Christ, that preaching is effectual unto salvation in a way that nothing else can be.

Jesse Schwamb 56:50
That's beautiful. I mean, like you said earlier, it almost goes back to this idea of just simply preaching the scriptures. Yeah. And yet one of the things that been a common theme that we've talked about, is this proclivity to want to try to adorn the scriptures, when it comes to actual preaching in the proclamation of the Scriptures on the Lord's Day, is somehow trying to feel like we need to dress them up to make them a little bit more entertaining, just something clever and witty to come up with a really good mental hook. And what you have here is decidedly and unashamedly Perkins saying, you don't need any of that stuff. In fact, when you bring that stuff in, you're actually less efficacious, there is almost a downward spiral, the more you add to it, the less beautiful, the less transforming. It is. It's it's almost like, I'm trying to think of like something perfect, like consider, you know, just like a really good hamburger. Like a really good hamburger doesn't need like any of the trappings. I'm talking about, like really good beef, Sally season, which is like salt, a little bit of salt and pepper, like any good chef would be like, don't touch that jam. Leave that by itself. It's exactly perfect as is, you'll actually detract from the amazing, beautiful flavor that's represented at me. And it's kind of I think part of what he's saying here is like, let the meat be the meat. Yeah. And just devour it, hunger after it. Go after that. That pure, beautiful burger.

Tony Arsenal 58:13
Man, My mouth is watering.

Jesse Schwamb 58:15
So I'm so hungry. Hey, on a quick side note, I was speaking of burgers and me and I'm not sure this might just undermine everything I just said in terms of using that as a metaphor. I was a participated in a five k last evening. And at the end of it, they had like a little buffet for the runners. Yeah. And this is a fairly nice restaurant, actually. And they had meatballs. And so I grabbed some people because because peoples are delicious, and they're made with gluten free bread crumbs is hard to find. Yeah, that's my style. Yeah, that's my style, right there. Sounds like great restaurant. They look delicious. I'm eating them. And then my wife says to me, hey, just so you know, there's actually that's not meat at all. And I was like, What? And it was like the impossible burger thing. And I have to tell you, I couldn't believe if nobody had said anything to me. I would have thought it was straight up. Meat.

Tony Arsenal 59:02
You know who I bet eats those fake, stupid sissy meatless burgers? Todd from the average everyday worship podcast. I bet you he's a fake meat, the fake meat burger person.

Jesse Schwamb 59:20
This is this is so great. What are the chances we can get Todd to come on this podcast,

Tony Arsenal 59:24
we could probably get him to come on the podcast, but I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna. He owes he owes me and Ashley and you and the entire state of New Hampshire and apology.

Jesse Schwamb 59:36
That's, that's so great. I hope that it's not just apologize, I think you realize that you're in the wrong if first, it was just an innocent mistake. And so we love you as a brother, we accept you in that right. But clearly there is a conviction. I mean, I can feel it for you. Yeah. And that is you just need to apologize about this. At this point. That's the only thing that can bring a full restoration.

Tony Arsenal 59:57
Yeah, if if you as a listener happen to know what church Todd goes to or his employee that I'd really like to get in touch with his elders need to talk about the ninth commandment. So there's that?

Jesse Schwamb 1:00:12
Oh, this is great. Well, this is another lovely. Another lovely book cast. Yes, I hope that like for people that are tracking with us, I think there might be and I say this, because when I listen to podcasts, this sometimes pops like in the back of my mind. So know that when I say this, I'm just like everybody else, when you're listening to a podcast, or you found your podcast that you love, and you see that they do this kind of like regular thing, like a book cast, or like a book review, for instance, that can be one of the times you're like, I'm just gonna skip it, because it's probably not that interesting, or they're just talking about something I haven't even read. I hope that if people are listening to this, they've gotten this far, that they realized, and this is the joy of reading something together with somebody because it spurs all this beautiful conversation. Yeah, that's around the center of what's being written about. And so I just, that's why I love reading this stuff with you. And I encourage everybody else to jump into their own little tiny book club. Because it's not just about like regurgitating what you read, but really trying to understand what you are reading, right? And then from that, getting all this wonderful topic that surrounds it. Yeah. So what a great time that we could start with William Perkins, and get into super left Syrian ism and double predestination and talk about effectual call all these things. I mean, this is why I read this is great because it challenges me as far as my life and the Lord uses it. He certainly blesses it. So I hope people are feeling blessed, just by hearing our, you know, lame little voices going back and forth on this.

Tony Arsenal 1:01:31
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny because you say like, sometimes you think that like these repeated series, people think they're not interesting. And all I could think of was the line out of Avengers where the Hulk looks at the Cameron. He goes, that's my secret cap. I'm always angry. And all I could think is that's my secret, Jesse. I'm never interesting. I'm okay with that, though.

Jesse Schwamb 1:01:57
Oh, well done. If nothing else, I'm always in impressed with your ability to draw from popular culture, especially the Marvel Universe and bring it in, just bring it home. I appreciate that about you. I try.

Tony Arsenal 1:02:08
Well, until next time, Jesse. Honor everyone.

Jesse Schwamb 1:02:12
Love the Brotherhood.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai