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Tony and Jesse answer more listener questions.
Sean (Orlando, FL)
Is church government the result of the fall and what elements of church government will persist in the new heaven and the new earth?
Dave (St. Louis, MO).
What is the difference between iniquity, sin, and transgression?
Jesse Schwamb 0:09
Welcome to Episode 163 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
Tony Arsenal 0:15
And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast of brotherly love.
Hey, brother.
Jesse Schwamb 0:34
Hey brother, this is the podcast of Brotherly Love
Tony Arsenal 0:37
is I've made it kind of a new sport to try to think of on the fly. I suppose they're not really on the fly if I'm thinking ahead of time, but to think of new catchphrases, and like tag lines for our show every week, so I'm sure that I will run run up dry pretty fast, like probably next week, but but we'll see how far I can go with like new Brother pawn related
Jesse Schwamb 1:02
podcasts tell you've already had a good run. I mean, we've got the classic honor everyone loved the brother. Yeah, that's really the centerpiece of our catchphrases, but the catchphrase is underrated on our show, because we really haven't had opportunity to really exert our cliche muscles.
Tony Arsenal 1:19
It's true. It's true. I'm trying to think of something funny to say about cliches and
Jesse Schwamb 1:24
muscles, and we've got all this atrophy, we haven't been practiced. We need to bulk up, we need to pump up. We need to get up and get with it. It's true. Out of like, exercise, bugs and cliche, yeah, that's how poor This is. Now, your theory is podcasting. Its best.
Tony Arsenal 1:45
Yeah, you're like a very, very physically fit person, but you're definitely not a bodybuilder. So the fact that you even came up with that many, like, weightlifting metaphors, I'm actually
Jesse Schwamb 1:56
impressed. I appreciate you saying that, but that's That's 100% the truth like nobody looks at me is like, Man, you are really ripped. That's not a conversation I ever have. We're gonna
Tony Arsenal 2:06
get a new logo and it's gonna be like you with a six pack and big like really arms. It's gonna be amazing.
Jesse Schwamb 2:12
Wait, wait, is this logo me shirtless? Yes,
Tony Arsenal 2:16
I would love someone to draw to make a reformed brotherhood logo that has Jesse as like Dwayne Johnson, except with Jesse's head. So if you could do that, for me, that would be epic.
Jesse Schwamb 2:28
That's incredible. Somebody will do this because we got so many loving brothers and sisters, and it will be among the most awkward things you've ever seen. I
Tony Arsenal 2:36
certainly hope it will.
Jesse Schwamb 2:38
Speaking of things that are less awkward, but might not be what are you affirming this week?
Tony Arsenal 2:43
So have you ever had the experience where? Let me ask this question? Where are you? going? I'm already laughing when you listen to a podcast and they stop producing episodes. Are you the kind of person that unsubscribed from the podcast or do you leave it in your feed.
Jesse Schwamb 3:01
Such a good question. This has happened recently and it's still in there.
Tony Arsenal 3:04
Okay. So I usually like take it out of my feed. Because when you update, like when you're on your updated, it actually has to check those feeds. So it's data being used blah, blah, blah. There's technical reasons I didn't even know but one of the podcasts that I didn't take out of my feed and I'm not 100% sure why is the haidle cast with ours are Scott Clark?
Jesse Schwamb 3:27
Yeah, and
Tony Arsenal 3:28
the halo cast dropped a new episode this week like a real like earlier in the week they started dropping these like one minute video clips. I was like, Oh, this is nice. He's just throwing some stuff out there. Somebody put some stuff together. And then he dropped like a 48 minute episode just give this a rating the federal vision and that was like, our Scott Clark is back. So I'm affirming one that the heito cast is back and to I'm just affirming the haidle cast because although I have some disagreements with how alarmists and frantic our Scott Clark can be about the federal vision. I understand why he is. And I think all things being equal I would rather someone be alarmist about the federal vision than just like, totally laissez faire about it like most, most people in the reformed world are. Even that said, I'm just excited to add vital cash back. And even if it's just this one episode, it was totally worth, like the 11 month wait to get one more episode. So even if he's on like an annual publishing schedule, I'm excited about it. And
Jesse Schwamb 4:31
11 month wait actually makes me feel way more productive. Like I feel better about my life now.
Tony Arsenal 4:35
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's like, super productive. He's just got a bunch of like a million other things going on. So check it out. haidle blog.net you can subscribe to the podcast there. You can find it on iTunes or anywhere else. The podcasts are found. It's really good. And he's he does he tends to do like more in depth long term series, which is great because he's a you know, he's a seminary professor. He's a story and he's a pastor. So all Though I think sometimes his perspectives can be a little bit slanted, based on kind of what he's addressing what he's confronting. Overall I think he's a reliable trustworthy commentator that we should all really really give good consideration to.
Jesse Schwamb 5:13
And he's crazy knowledgeable and super thorough history with of all those topics is really on point you know, you're going to get a really solid view at something and he has a market and all hydro related media.
Tony Arsenal 5:24
It's true and also he has like the best radio voice ever. Yes. So he's I don't know if he like actually trained as a radio broadcaster, but he certainly sounds like a radio broadcaster.
Jesse Schwamb 5:36
When I saw a picture from for the first time I was like, stop it. That voice is not coming out of that face.
Tony Arsenal 5:41
It's true and also little known fact, he is like you and I, a lover of Scottish terriers, although he he has the dreaded Scotty rather than Westies, but he did. After talking on Twitter one time he did comment that he loves Westies, so I think I can give him a Pass on the scotties
Jesse Schwamb 6:01
What is his Scottish terrier his name? Do we know that? I don't
Tony Arsenal 6:03
know. But there's all sorts of pictures floating around out there of him was Scottish terriers. Scott, he's on his lap. So
Jesse Schwamb 6:11
I'm picturing him. He's, here's this serious theologian all this pedagogical background experience, and it's like pictures of him on the internet just covered in scotties.
Tony Arsenal 6:20
Yeah, everywhere. They're always on his lap to he just loves his dog. So I can't follow standing. Yes. What about you? What are you affirming?
Jesse Schwamb 6:29
Well, something far less spiritual, as is the norm apparently, on our podcast. I'm affirming the gift of safety. Especially this thing called road ID. I know I've talked about this before on this podcast, but you know, like you mentioned, I do try to do a little bit of running around at like actual outside. And in the course of doing that I realized a couple years ago, just it's so important to carry some kind of identification on your person. And especially because I have a couple of health issue things going on. And it would be super helpful if I was just like passed out on the side of the road for somebody who knows some things about me if they came upon me and need to call an ambulance or anybody for that matter so I'm affirming this particular website called the road id.com and you can go out there and purchase all these different little I mean they're identifications that you can carry on your person. While you're either exercising or just like in life generally like if you have kids, this is a great thing for you to have with your child were like a little silicum bracelet that has like some identifying information on there. So like they have dog tags, they have things for your pet they have things that fit around your smartwatch for if you're an Apple Watch person or if you're a government person, it's just a great way for you to identify yourself when you're out and about in case anything were to ever happen. So my father actually wears this he has a condition and his mental someone's milk information is on there but this is just beyond that you have you don't have anything that's a medical condition is just a great way to put like the emergency contact information of a loved one because It's one of those things where like, you never know if you're out like biking somewhere, even just walking, you know, something could happen to you, you give it hit incidentally buy a car, or accidentally buy a car. And, you know, just be knocked out. And for somebody to call upon you and be able to call loved one and have some information about you is amazing. So road ID. com, there's all kinds of options out there. And I was I just need to replace my road Id actually, because they're fantastic. And I thought, Man, everybody, really everybody should have one of these.
Tony Arsenal 8:30
Yeah, the alternative would be to have your medical history and emergency contact information like tattooed on your rib cage. So is that the alternative? Well, it's an alternative. Do you know that legal legally, paramedics cannot use a tattoo Do Not Resuscitate.
Jesse Schwamb 8:50
Really?
Tony Arsenal 8:51
Yep. So they actually had to, like medical ethics wise, they had to like run that through the whole process, because they can't be sure That its current. Like there's no like it's it's much more likely to have been something someone did and then change their mind than like an actual paper document. They're not actually I mean, unless it's changed they're not actually allowed to use a tattoo DNR
Unknown Speaker 9:15
So
Jesse Schwamb 9:16
yeah, that's why I thought you're gonna say like, they can't be sure that that person actually wanted the tattoo like somebody else tattooed or like, what if it says like, Do Not Resuscitate but then it's like, lined out in tattoo as well?
Tony Arsenal 9:27
Yeah, yeah. It's like cross confusing. Yeah.
Jesse Schwamb 9:32
The way you said that though, because I know you work in the healthcare industry. And because this is what top 50 healthcare podcast I thought actually the way that with the the urgency and the confidence you said that I thought that was like a thing. Like, you know what the religion alternative is? get tattooed on your rib cage. You put that in your wrist? It's not legit, but anything on the rib cage? That is absolutely the sign to the paramedic. This is these are my instructions.
Tony Arsenal 9:56
Yeah, I mean, I guess you could tattoo it somewhere else. But like the one place that the paramedics are probably going to see, and they find you is like, on your chest, your rib cage, because they gotta like check your heart rate and stuff.
Unknown Speaker 10:09
So here's the question.
Jesse Schwamb 10:10
So the stethoscope, let's pair this, that's a good call, let's pair this with my recommendation. So they're on if you go to road ID, they got all kinds of options. A lot of them are like risk based, you get something to tag on to your shoe, you can get something for around your neck. You can get something for like around your ankle, where's the best place to put this information?
Tony Arsenal 10:31
I would actually say the risks if you're not going to get a tattooed on your cage, because they're going to check. If they find you unconscious on the side of the road. They're going to check your pulse, right?
Jesse Schwamb 10:40
Yeah, I guess so. I
Tony Arsenal 10:42
feel like probably your left wrist because usually they want to take your pulse in your left hand because that's sort of
Jesse Schwamb 10:49
There you go. See, look at this. You heard it here first on the reform brotherhood. Somehow we actually did manage to turn this into a podcast about some meaningful information about health care. Yeah.
Tony Arsenal 10:58
Someone in our audience that paramedic, I'm sure and they're probably like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. None of that makes any sense. Somebody needs to tell us a paramedic out there, please give us some more info. Yes, really what you should do is you should buy a road ID for your neck, your arm, your foot, your shoe and your ankle and also get it tattooed everywhere including your forehead.
Jesse Schwamb 11:22
They have this option on road ID where you can get like their standard, which is just, it's it's you know, like either a small bracelet with kind of like a middle class but has all this information or the traditional dog tags. And you can just put, you know, whatever you want on there, your name where you're from your contact information, but they also have a service where it'll put a specific serial number and then the paramedic or anybody can take that serial number, punch it into their website and it will pull up like your full medical history. That's pretty wild. That's
Tony Arsenal 11:49
exactly what I want the paramedics to be doing is so
Unknown Speaker 11:51
like, you pulling out their
Tony Arsenal 11:53
phone and trying to find the website. Hey, can you throw this in your phone real quick? Mine's dead. I don't have a good charger.
Jesse Schwamb 12:01
I mean, I'm not sure any of this works, but it is a good way to make sure that if you were ever in some kind of horrible position that your loved ones would be notified right away. I do like that.
Tony Arsenal 12:10
Yes. Great. I was gonna suggest that we start microchipping everybody and then I realized that like the seven dispensationalists that listen to our podcasts would be greatly alarmed. That's true. Yes. On the right hand or the forehead though.
Jesse Schwamb 12:27
Yeah, it only one of those two places. Yeah, but now I'm really, really look after we're done with this. I'm going to look into what are my options for rib cage tattooing of my medical information.
Tony Arsenal 12:37
Let's get ripped a rib cage tattoos at the beach this year
Jesse Schwamb 12:41
matching. I was actually just thinking about that because this is all coming together. Now. It's entirely we're in the full circle, the rotary if you will, of ideas, in that only some people will get that joke. Because we just talked about for whatever reason me being shirtless. Can you imagine like being at the beach like your tanning and your medical information? Just out there chillin.
Tony Arsenal 13:01
Yeah. Would that be a HIPAA violation? I suppose it's your own medical
Jesse Schwamb 13:06
information, you're disclosing it. I mean, I'm sure you could get like a tattoo of your own signature underneath.
Tony Arsenal 13:11
That's true. That's probably not great. Someone snap a picture with their phone, and then that's a whole new level of identity theft.
Jesse Schwamb 13:18
That is a whole new level we have we have so gone off the rails at this point. So let's bring it back around to some denials.
Tony Arsenal 13:25
Well denying. So I know that we try to avoid the reformed weather cast, but this is a particular kind of weather denial.
Unknown Speaker 13:32
Just lead into it. So
Tony Arsenal 13:34
you probably have experienced this, although it seems like it's worse in the most recent couple years. I'm denying alarmists, weather forecasting. So I'm with you on that last week. Maybe like, I don't know it's maybe like Thursday or Friday. And I work in a medical practice. So like people here a hint of that there's going to be like a little bit of rain and they start calling and canceling their appointments. So if if the weather actually going to be bad. We don't want people driving. But when the weather forecast is like, All right, everybody stay home or you might die because there's going to be 28 feet of snow, and also fire from the sky. And then it's like a little bit of rain and maybe like a little bit of wind. that's frustrating. So today, today's Sunday, and we normally have adult Bible study on certain Sundays of the month. And because of the weather forecast, we decided, as a leadership team in the church, that for safety reasons, we would cancel our adult Bible study class, which again, if it's going to be bad out, and it's going to be dangerous, we don't want people driving, but there's like a good chance that it's going to turn out to be almost nothing. And it's frustrating because had the weather forecast just been accurate. We probably would not have canceled, but now that I'm actually looking at the weather, it's probably not going to be as bad as they said, which means we canceled Bible study for nothing.
Jesse Schwamb 15:00
Yeah, this is I think we may have mentioned this before. And everybody is I think, at one point or another time thought about the fact that they probably in their own sphere of influence in their own line of work, can't get away with the kind of leeway that weather casters have. And I understand like, they're using predictive models just like anybody else. But it's always the kind of thing where, you know, if you're just like, there's no, you can't really have good accountability, because they're, like, you told me is like a 75% chance of like blizzard conditions, and end up being a little bit of rain. They'll just be like, Well, yeah, it's the weather, you know, what are you gonna do?
Tony Arsenal 15:34
Yeah, I mean, I get it. Like, the the amount of data that's required to do a weather prediction is so immensely huge that the fact that they ever get it right. And actually, like the fact that they mostly get it, right. If we really look at it, like most of the time, they're pretty on point. It's actually really, really impressive. But right, it seems like when they're not sure, or if there's anybody possibility of something big happening. It's like all the sudden there's like a special breaking news winter storm Jeffrey is on the rise and also winter storm Jeffrey is going to murder all your kittens. So make sure you bring the kittens inside the free. Yeah, I don't know. I picked the name Jeffrey.
Jesse Schwamb 16:19
No, that's, that's perfect because Jeffrey is kind of like unassuming like, he sounds like the kind of guy you want to have over for tea and then he kills all your cat.
Tony Arsenal 16:26
Yeah, because like whether
Jesse Schwamb 16:28
it sounds unassuming, you're actually right on, I'm gonna sneak in an affirmation. If you really want to read an amazing chapter in a book about whether casting, they'll kind of change how you view things. Take a look at Nate Silver's book, the signal and the noise. He has a whole section devoted to this. And actually what he emphasizes interesting in that our technology to forecast weather is actually better than it's ever been before. It's actually quite substantial and quite accurate. Part of the problem with weather right now is the senseless sense. It just you Don't try to say
Tony Arsenal 17:01
this word right sensationalism.
Jesse Schwamb 17:03
Yes. of weather because the weather is entertainment. So like all these reporting, like you said, where it's like winter storm tracker. Yeah, come see how many feet you're gonna get right now. Like all that stuff draws people in. So like where I live. It's always this thing where that there's going to be a little bit of a storm, all of a sudden, it's like 60 interviews with like, ploud drivers in front of like giant salt hills like talking about what they're doing their preparation, and then everybody is going to the grocery store to buy enough ingredients to make french toast and pancakes for seven or eight days straight, where you will definitely be able to get out of your house tomorrow.
Tony Arsenal 17:40
I actually think that maybe the weather sensationalism is like because of the milk and egg lobby, and the bread lobby. You mean big egg the milk big dairy? Yeah. Big dairy. Big. Big ag. Yeah, I like big egg too. It's big eggs fault. Oh, this is great. What are you denying? And then we should actually so up theology.
Jesse Schwamb 18:07
Yeah, be prepared this is really going to be quite brief. This is a really, really lame and quite trite denial, but for for lots of reasons. I've recently found myself in the note card market in that I need to purchase some like no cards. I haven't done this in quite some time. And so my wife is very gracious enough, she went out to places looking for no cards. One, she found it exceedingly difficult to find just no cards without the lines. Apparently that's like a request in this world. That's too great. You can only find line no card requests. I was like, okay, that's fine. I mean, I will accept your lines, no cards. She bought me some. And it This is my issue. And again, I'm just straight me being a whiner. I'm really denying against no cards that are present kind of like most stores because what I found is they don't care about the country. Part. It's not just the note, I need the card. And so what she what she brought back to me was basically note paper was cut and looks like a card. But the card is representative of cardstock in the quality and the stiffness of the paper. And so it's basically just like eight and a half by 11 center sheets of paper that were cut into no card shapes. I was like, I can't tell you how surprised I was that how much this unnerved me and I was just so disappointed. Like, again, this is just so trite, but that's my denial. We just need real notecards where the real men were the real notecards presumably they're both together somewhere. And so we I was able to find some eventually but I had to like purchase extra hard, like extra hard notecards and to me they were just like of standard quality like just normal stiffness.
Tony Arsenal 19:53
We should. We should get Doug Wilson to write a no quarter November article
Unknown Speaker 19:59
about how
Tony Arsenal 20:01
The failure to have proper note cards is a sign of the declining like attitudes of men in the country and how they then he should throw some cuss words and some like really insulting things into the article so people will read it.
Jesse Schwamb 20:16
So here's the thing, it could be in from like a straight statistical mathematical perspective, based on what I see out there because I bought a couple of packages these and they were all underwhelming with respect to their stiffness. There's going to be like a correlation that's close to one. So it's spurious. But yeah, seems like they are highly correlated.
Tony Arsenal 20:34
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Get on that done. Yes. And,
Jesse Schwamb 20:37
yeah, so in also, this is kind of like embedded a sneaky affirmation, I discovered that no, cars are awesome. And that they're, they're kind of like, undervalued, they're great tool to use for all kinds of things. bookmarks, little note, like get rid of the post, it's get some good notecards but you gotta have to go and you're gonna have to go in a little bit of a search probably to find the stuff that's like stiff enough that will withstand the kind of abuse I'm putting my note cards through.
Tony Arsenal 21:01
Yeah, I have a little confession to make. So I have an addiction to stationery. Like if I go into if I go into staples, it's like that it's like a bad situation. So this specifically in seminary came about in terms of buying note cards and then never using them. And then when I would find like an open pack of note cards, like half of them would be bent because they were like in the bottom I backpack so I'd throw them all away and buy new note cards. And then the cycle just repeat or like, I have probably like 10 moleskin notebooks hanging out in my office somewhere that have like seven pages of stuff written in them, and then I like stopped using them. And then I was at Staples to buy like a new chair. And I was like, You know what, I need a new moleskin notebook. Maybe if I get the kind that's a grid instead of lines. I'll use it this time. Yeah, so So I actually notebook note cards. It's kinda like crack for me. So
Jesse Schwamb 22:03
we've never spoken about this. But no, I am exactly the same way. Yeah, I'm like, I'm feeling your heart on this because there's something to be appealing about a nice clean blank sheet of paper. Yes. So like when you when you see like, you go into like staples, you're like, there's all these amazing pens and writing instruments, and hear all these amazing things to record your thoughts on there's something almost romantic. Yeah, gathering all this stuff up and having it available to you. And I was just a marketing to a friend today, a church. I recently started a new notebook. And for writing notes in the sermon in the sermon, but about the sermon, and I was saying that I've been trying to get better at like, not buying the expensive stuff. Because the moleskin notebook, nothing feels better than one of those bad boys. Yeah, it's just like a beautiful thing. Elastic around it. Yeah. It makes you feel like you could write the next great American novel just holding one of those things. Yeah. And so but I was remarking that what I've been using now is just kind of like just cheap I think was like, just given to me, like I'm going to standard giveaway notebook. And yet the paper quality was so good, like my writing in it looks so awesome. So I totally am with you on that.
Tony Arsenal 23:09
My thing with moleskin notebooks is I have this vision. So this is this comes from me being like a church history major, right? You read about like all of the most amazing theologians and like their personal journals and like, like their letters get published. And then like, you know, someday there might be like volumes of my moleskin notebooks with like, my sermon notes and all my thoughts. And then what ends up happening is I write like, I write the date. And I'm always thinking, like, I'm going to jot down theological thoughts throughout the day and like, there's like seven pages in a row with nothing but the date written on them. And then, and then that's when I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to do this. I like I throw the notebook away. And then like, two months later, I'm at Staples, and I'm like, you know, I could really use a new moleskin notebook. And you know what else I need with the new moleskin notebook. I need some new pens and brothers A new ruler I know I have ruler over somewhere. But look at this ruler, this ruler is gonna make all the difference in the world.
Jesse Schwamb 24:07
I've got so many Bible rulers I know. No, no joke. Well, this has been the definitive Jesse talking about stationary for like 20 minutes podcast.
Tony Arsenal 24:17
See, this is how I know that we both have a problem is I'm actually like really excited. And there's a part of me that wants to like go to staples right now.
Jesse Schwamb 24:27
There's only two groups of people there those listening to this podcast and saying, this is a complete waste of my time get to the theology and there are those right now that were driving somewhere and adjust course corrected to the nearest details after hearing us
Tony Arsenal 24:42
there's also a third category of people that realize how deeply connected what we're talking about is and theology, how those two things actually connect with each other. That audience might just be me and you but I think there's more. Let us know if that's you. If if you have an addiction to stationery, or staples or fancy pens, or something like that, then please write us we want to get you help. And also we want to get help. And maybe we also want to just nerd out about stationery and pens.
Jesse Schwamb 25:14
And also, we want to know what stuff you're using stuff.
Tony Arsenal 25:18
Exactly.
Jesse Schwamb 25:21
Well, let's move on if we even can at this point. And this is another great episode. I'm looking forward to this because it's question
Tony Arsenal 25:28
cast is question cast. And you can always tell when we have question cast coming up, because we're a little bit less less than ordinary focused and getting to the topic, which is also why our question cast episodes feel like they're going to be really like, short and then they end up being like an hour and a half long, because we think that we're going to go through questions fast, and then we don't. So that's where we at. So buckle up because you got at least another hour of this podcast.
Jesse Schwamb 26:00
Can we just say this, like, maybe this might be helpful by way of disclosure is, I know sometimes we get some feedback from people, they like to hear a little bit about more of just like our personalities and our lives. Because they don't think we're just like theological automatons that are just, you know, always talking about the algae, even though that that really does, in fact, encapsulated a lot of our lives. So be curious for more feedback on that, because this has been a rather extended version of affirmations and denials, but it is more effective or not more effective, but it is who we are.
Tony Arsenal 26:32
Yeah, that's true. I love to give an apology for our content. Always Be prepared to give a defense of your content, I guess.
Jesse Schwamb 26:44
So yeah, now I'm feeling like we should just scrap this and start over. I think that's what I was doing when I started but now that you called me out, I totally agree that I basically just apologize for who we were. So I rescind said apology.
Tony Arsenal 26:57
That's all good. Why don't we Why don't we course correct ourselves here and just get on to the first question.
Listener Sean 27:03
Yes, please. All right. Here's the first one. Hey, Tony and Jesse, this is Sean calling from Orlando, Florida. Got a question for you guys. I was wondering your thoughts on to what extent church government is a result of the fall? Or ask differently? What aspects of church government and church structure do you think will continue in the new heavens and new earth? thinking specifically as things like the role of Deacon being established in the book of Acts, and whether that would be something that would continue? Whereas, you know, briefly roles being president in the garden before the fall, so it's interesting, your thoughts. Thanks. Bye. So
Jesse Schwamb 27:48
Sean asked what I think is a really unique and thoughtful question. Something that actually has never come across my mind explicitly, but I think there's a lot of good meat here to chew on. Yeah. So if I do, distill it, down. What he's basically asking is his church government, the result of the fall, and what elements of church government will persist in the new heaven and the new earth. And I've been thinking about this a little bit. And here's the thing about church government. I know that actually from your background, your convictions in particular, strong fidelity to some sense of church government. And what I actually admire about that, is that I think that's how everybody should approach it that the Bible has something to say though there are many forms that have been adopted through time that I would say that the Bible allows for kind of a dispersed or democratized endorsement of different forms of church government. But here's the bottom line. I think whether somebody wants to admit it or not, they have some kind of notion about how the church should be governed about who should make the decisions, what procedures should be followed, and what kind of authority characterizes those decisions and procedures. So when I think about church government, I'm thinking about something that answers questions like who's determines how the churches contribution should be spent, who's going to preach on Sunday Is that a man? Or is that a woman? Is it either? or What should we expect in his or her preaching? What does the church? How does it approach church pursue reconciliation between offended brothers and sisters? How are disputes between disagreeing parties resolved, who's going to miss your baptism? So people I think, often claim without much reflection that church government is really a relatively trivial matter. It's not something over which loving Christian should really worry or argue. But on the other hand, if you actually take a hard look around at what actually happens in various churches, I think what you'll notice is that most the most prevalent reason why people get upset and leave a congregation is not really because of doctrinal differences. It's often tied in one fashion or another to the way that the congregation is governed or disciplined or a lack of discipline, right. And so because many churches have not heated the scriptures, I think with respect to government and discipline, the history of the Christian church reveals abuses and disappointments, disappointments in the administration of church affairs. from either despotic unity, or democratic chaos. So I guess that's a really roundabout way of saying I really affirm this question, because I think there is something here for us to think about. So what are your Let's start with the first part. What are your initial thoughts on church government as a result of the fall yay or nay?
Tony Arsenal 30:19
Well, so this is one of those questions. Yeah. I like most questions in theology. In one sense, the answers yes. And in one sense, the answer is no. So right on, let's start with the answer is no. So I don't usually get a lot of lead time on these questions from you, which is fine. That's true. But I had a couple hours to think about this. And this is actually a question I thought about before and I I absolutely agree that church, church governance church polity is really something that the Christian church and especially people in the congregations the the lay people in the congregations need to think more about, and if you actually read like most systematic theology books, There's really not a lot of discussion about church government in most systematic theology books, you know, church, church theology books that are coming from a really particular like confessional or dogmatic perspective, tend to explain their own church government. And they, they also tend to kind of in contrast to explain other church governments. But if you read like Wayne grudem, systematic theology, which, when grudem doesn't really have much of a church polity in like a strict sense, he doesn't cover it in any real depth. Right. So I think because the systematic theology that most people in reformed kind of lay person world go to don't address this, they don't think or don't feel like it's important, but it really is. And so, on one level, church government is a necessary result of the fact that there's a church because if there's a church, that church has to be governed in some way, and not governed in terms of like rules. Dover, although that's an element of it, but just the fact that the church exists means that the church has to exist, like you can't get away from the existence and the operation of the church. And if the church is operating, then in in a very real sense, it's being governed some way or somehow even anarchie is a form of government. Right? Right. So if you go back, all the way back to prior to the fall since this questions about the fall, going to Genesis chapter two, starting in verse five, it says, When no bush of the field was yet in the land, and no small plants of the field had yet sprung up. The Lord God had not cause the rain on the land, there was no man to work the ground. And the mist was going up from the ground and the land was watering the whole face of the earth. And then the Lord God formed the man from dust out of the ground and breathed into his nostrils and the breath of life and the man became a living creature. And then jumping down to verse 15. It says, The Lord took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work and to keep it So those those words work and keep the other places in scripture where they they show up next to each other like that is in reference to the language that the priests were given the task that the priests were given in reference to the temple. And so Greg Beal has done all sorts of fabulous work on eatin being a garden temple, like the temple imagery. But But the point I'm making is that the task of Adam in the garden was essentially the same task that the priests were given in relation to the temple of the priests than the invites. And so then as we go on, and now we introduce the woman leader in the chapter. The reformed tradition has almost unequivocably held that Adam and Eve together worshiping God constitute the first church and Adam was the first king and priest of the church. So he was the king and priests of that church. He was God's regions God had appointed him to govern and rule over all creation. And especially the garden, and especially over his wife and those that they would produce as their children. And so if if we have the church in the, the garden, if we have the church before the fall, which we say we do, we agree we do. And Adam has given a task to rule over the church, as the federal covenant had and the progenitor of all of humanity, then there's a church government, right, Adam was called to be the high priest, King of the church in the garden, and had he persisted. And this is going to be a little controversial, because there are some in the reformed world who hold kind of an incarnation anyway, if you and I used to hold on myself, but had Adam persisted, Adam would have been enthroned as the ruler of humanity in God's presence. So So in a very real sense, that the seats that Christ sits on as the incarnate Lord Adam would have filled a similar function in being the eschatological ruler of humanity in the presence of God. Adam would have been the king and priest over God's people for all future eternity had he passed his probation. That's part of the part of Adams personal eschatology, which was not actualized was that he would have been advanced to a state of permanence in which he was the federal head and ruler who obtained the merit for permanent righteousness for all of his present all of his progeny. Right. So in the garden prior to the fall, even though it's a very different kind of church government than what we think about after the fall, there is a church there's someone a human that's ruling over that church or was supposed to be over that church. And so prior to the fall, there would definitely was a church government. Now, after the fall, church government looks very different. So I'm not going to say although I know there are some people that actually would say this would have eventually developed. I don't believe that like, non fallen church government would have been Presbyterian, right, or congregational, right. Like all of the different kinds of Church government models that we have that I believe I believe that the Presbyterian model is prescribed in Scripture, both by example and by command. But there's good arguments for other other forms of government. There's good arguments to say that there is no one prescribed form of church government. There's good arguments for all of that. But I don't think any of those situations would have happened if the fall had not happened. But that doesn't mean there wasn't a church government prior to the fall.
Jesse Schwamb 36:30
Right. And that's a good point. Because I think if I had to guess what's actually behind this particular question in the subtext is more speaking about the administration, right, church. gov. Right, is the way that we see a minister now, uniquely characteristic of the fall. And I think there's some good tuition there. Because when I look at church government in our modern era, because what's interesting is, is kind of considering what you just said, we're talking about a counterfactual world that doesn't actually exist, right. So there was church government writ large, the way in which it's been administered to us The New Testament error is completely different than what we just been talking about. So I would I see this as I think church government is really the solution in this side of sin, so to speak, of the principal agent problem. So of course, when you speak of principles, those are somebody an organization or entity, a person who has control ownership over something, right. And the agent is the person that acts on their behalf that uses the resources and they're supposed to use the resources for the benefit of the principal. And so Jesus even uses example, he speaks about the vineyard use that as a parable. And he says, He puts these these people are put in charge of the vineyard. And then instead of again, being good agents and using it for the benefit, the principal paying restitution for the use of the land and whatnot, they abuse it, and when the principal tries to send, you know, his emissaries his representatives that kill them and escalates to an extreme degree. So I think church government nowadays we have is largely as we see it in its manifestation and administration. It's it is a result of the fall because here we have a method by which godly practical Quality is brought to bear on sinful agents. So how does Christ direct and govern his church? Obviously, he's not bodily present to make decisions and give audible guidance. And even beyond that special divine revelation is not provided every time we wish to visit the sick or resolve a dispute with determined questions of doctrine, or by a light bulb for the church office. So there must be a method, I think, by which God and His graciousness provides some kind of guidance. And then when we say like fences, everything in so to speak, and so we see like, this is where I'm, I'm kind of erring on the side of, I would say mostly, as we understand it, I would ask this question is yes, result of the fault not writ large. But again, it's application because Christ is directing his church to the Scriptures, which is his own self revelation and authoritative guidance. So historically speaking, if you want to try to bring some empirical evidence to bear on on my, my answer in that direction, during the early history of the church, for example, you know, Luke found it relevant to relate that the money contribute to the church was under the control of its overseers see to expect that next four and x 15. You have Luke going further and according a significant account of how the early church resolve a doctrinal dispute by convening a general assembly of its elders, right and authoritative Lee publishing their decision for the whole church. And then even the author of Hebrews made this explicit point of exhorting the believers to submit to the authority of their leaders as those who watch for their souls. So I think there's a history here all that to say, I think a large part of God and His goodness provides this church government to give us some kind of guidance to move us forward because unfortunately, we are sinful agents. So this principal agent problem persists all over our world but especially in the church, and the church is the one place where there should be some kind of explicit guidelines to help us in a direction that is godly and godward focused with respect to how we deal with each other and how we administer the even like the logistical underpinnings and procedures of the church itself.
Tony Arsenal 39:59
Yeah. Yeah. Now before we move on to this next part of the question, which I think is a really great question, you know, it bears it bears saying the reality or the fact of authority, and specifically derived authority or delegated authority from God to the creature, that is not a post fall development. Right? So it was created and given dominion over the creatures, and we talked about it. We did that episode on complementarianism. I would also say, although in a different sense, and in a different way, Adam is also given authority over Eve his wife, and would have had he they had children in the garden would have also had authority over their children and the principal, obviously not to excuse the pun. The principle behind that authority is that principle of generation right Adam has authority over Eve. In that immediate sense, in light of the fact that she was taken from his side and created out of him, right, Paul picks up on that in I think it's in Timothy. But also, I think in Corinthians, he picks up on that that man was made for or woman was made from the man. And that impart justifies why Adam had authority over Eve. And that's why by extension, men have a certain kind of authority over their wives. And then the same principle in a different sense, extends and explains why men and women have authority over the children that they together produce. So this this idea that God delegated to the creature to the first Adam, and you'll see where I'm going with this by that language, the principle that God delegated church ecclesiastical authority to the first Adam, that extends into the current age, that that that ecclesiastical authority was delegated to the second Adam, right as, as the second Adam as the incarnate God, man. As man, Christ has authority over the church, right? God has authority over all things in light of His nature as God, and that that's the same for the Father, the Son in the spirit. But Christ as man, Christ, according to humanity has a special kind of authority over the church, predominantly because the church comes from him. And because he has been given authority and obtained authority over the church as their federal head, in the same exact sense that Adam would have had authority over the church, as their as the federal had had he succeeded in his probation, right. So that first second, Adam parallelism extends into the current age. And here's the kicker, that means it also extends into the age to come right in Scripture that sometimes they talk about three stages of history, sometimes they talk about two, generally speaking, when they talk about three stages they think about from Adam to know from Noah to Christ, and then from Christ to eternity. And so we're in the first part of that That last stage of Christ's of the latter age or the later days, when it talks about the two stages of history, Paul uses this language a lot more Peter does a little bit too. There's there's the prior to Christ, the former days, and then there's the later days. But no matter how you slice it up eschatological Lee Christ as the Risen God, man, as the second Adam, according to humanity will rule over the church for all eternity. In the same sense, there's a reason it's called the throne of David right, Christ sits on David's throne, because David's throne was a type of the eternal reign of the son of David, that was not just because he was gone, but because he was the man who brought about the redemption of the church. And so that that kind of church government at a very minimum, we still will have a man a human person, ruling and reigning over the church as the high priest King and profits for all eternity. So yes, there's an element of Government in the new heavens and the new earth. Now, I take the position that I actually think that elements of how we govern the church. Now, in terms of my perspective, the Presbyterian model of the church, I actually think that some of that will persist into the new kingdom. Because I think that, you know, Revelation, although it's highly, highly symbolic book still uses the language of elders still uses the language of talking about the nation's like, there's still these human subgroupings that exists in the book of Revelation that I don't think would have necessarily happened had the fallout occurred, but I also don't necessarily think are sinful in and of themselves. And so I do think that some of those will persist into the new creation.
Jesse Schwamb 44:43
I completely agree. There's something here that God has ordained with respect to church governance, that is super Jason it transcends time it transcends even sin itself in a sense that existed for all of creation, and would have continued to exist. Like you said, Adam, and himself not falling. But what's interesting here is and you're right, this is like the classic Yes, no answer, that at the same time, there was almost like a shift, there was an inflection point in the role that church governance needed to take. So even at the very beginning, here, you have all this church governance. And it's almost as if there's a component embedded in this church government plan, there is something that would attend to sin would attend to discipline if necessary, and needed. And of course, that was what needed to be invoked because sin entered the world. And so again, when we think about church government, at least, when I think about it, my first thoughts automatically move toward the direction of things like discipline, false teaching, and working through problems, right and procedures. And that is the role of it in some sense, but it's also far bigger than just those things. So that means then that it will likely persist the new habits, the new earth because it was created, and it existed in a period in time in a realm where there was only perfection, and so on. By virtue of that fact, it's not as this this came in to fill a gap, it was always part of God's perfect plan. And so it will persist. But the part of it that's like, we don't enjoy all that much the part of thinking about how we need to handle all these different human affairs. Yeah, that will, of course, that portion will likely well will definitely go away. And I'll be glad for it too.
Tony Arsenal 46:20
Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes, because like you were saying earlier, because our models of government are so oriented towards restraining and checking the effects of sin, right, even even you think about like secular government. The role of the government is to restrain evil to restrain evil doers to structure society in a way that conforms with a moral principle. You know, our current society is all out of whack because the moral principle that they're trying to conform the society to, is faulty, but that the purpose of government is in a real sense to conform a society to a given moral principle primarily through punishing that which falls outside of that moral principle. And so we think about government in relation to that reality of, of forming and formulating and punishing wrongdoing and conforming to a moral principle, we lose sight of the fact that there's nothing that has to say that that activity of conforming someone to a moral principle has to be a response to sin. Right? If, if I don't have children, you don't have children. But you know, if a father is trying to conform their child to a given set of moral principles, and that child never violates those moral principles, that doesn't change the fact that the Father is still tasked with shaping and guiding that child. Exactly. A father teaches his son, don't steal, don't, don't fight unnecessarily. Don't. Don't lie, don't hurt people. The fact is that some kids I mean, every kid will live Every kid will hurt someone. But some kids never rebel in that sense, they never steal anything. They never shoplift, they never intentionally get in a fistfight like some kids just don't do that, not because they're not sinful. But the fact that the Father is not correcting that behavior does not mean that he's not shaping and forming that behavior. And so I think actually in in, in the situation, if the fall had never happened, the role of Adam still would have been to form and drive and shape his, his progeny and the church in that direction, and to to conform the church to the image that God had established for what he desired it to be. And prior following the eschaton, in the in the new heavens and the new earth, there will still be an element where the purpose of the church is to conform its people more and more into the image of Christ. But never fully. We're going to be made perfect and holiness but there's still going to be this element. That the church exists to establish these boundaries and the fact that we no longer will be pushing against those boundaries, the way we are now doesn't change the fact that that still, in part, the purpose of the church,
Jesse Schwamb 49:11
well, this is what sin does, right? it what it does is it requires and shifts a disproportionate amount of our resources toward remediation. And so what I think what we're saying is embedded or impounded in church governance, is the ability to handle those types of things to deal with those types of things. But what we'd rather have is the kind of leadership that brings that kind of moral formation, that's a result of a regenerated heart, where resources do not need to be consumed, right, in trying to kind of push forward some kind of agenda that is against our nature. And so church governance is large enough and power enough by the grace of God to handle those types of things to provide that kind of framework, but it exists outside of the need for that kind of framework.
Tony Arsenal 49:57
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I think that that is is definitely the case. I mean, I think I really say
Jesse Schwamb 50:05
I really thought you were gonna say, I really think that is the definitive answer
Tony Arsenal 50:08
it. It has through my mind. That's why I pause.
Unknown Speaker 50:15
What were you gonna say?
Tony Arsenal 50:16
I was saying like, I just think that we should recognize that the church, the function of the church, the purpose of the church is not a response to sin. Yes, group, the fact that we exist within sin makes it so certain elements of the church have to be different. But the function and purpose of the church is not a reaction to sin. And us church government necessarily existing because the church exists, is also not intrinsically tied to the presence of sin or the reality of sin.
Jesse Schwamb 50:48
And we should say that because we understand God's to be one of meticulous order, not of chaos, that it makes sense that even in the perfect world that he created, there would be an order for this type of thing and that order For the church for the brain together of God's people for their instruction would be manifest in some way. And that title would be under church governance, right? So I just think that we have or maybe I'm just speaking for myself, there is like a cognitive bias toward to interpreting the word governance is something that's necessarily required me so something else has gone wrong. And so we need to correct it. Whereas what we're saying here is this pursuit of that whole idea, that concept, there would still be leadership and accountability and hierarchy, and avenues of respect and guidance, that would be totally necessary and appropriate, even outside of sin.
Tony Arsenal 51:36
Yeah. Yeah. Why don't we move on to the next question? Why because that was the photo. That was definitive.
Jesse Schwamb 51:44
Right. Next question.
Listener Dave 51:47
Good morning brothers, this is Dave from St. Louis. I like you to answer the question, I'd like you to explain the difference between iniquity, sin, and transgression. Thank you.
Jesse Schwamb 51:58
So I believe brother Dave has the record for the most succinct question that has ever been asked on our podcast. This is just a bare 19 seconds of question.
Tony Arsenal 52:12
Wow. That's crazy. It's a beautiful thing. It's like blink and you miss it.
Jesse Schwamb 52:17
Yeah, you might need to go back and hear it again. And he's given us just three words. And for that reason, I love this question, because what it has in brevity, I think it also has with it the extent of it can be an answer, that's broad as well. And so he's got he's asking about iniquity, sin and transgression. So in knowing that we're going to talk about this I look went and look these up real quick in the Oxford English Dictionary, which again, as I've affirmed before, has an excellent app for your your mobile device, which you should check out. So let me throw for you Tony, the definitions actually. So we can get a sense for both the scope of these words, but also how if you just look them up, how they tend to overlap a bit. So here's an equity and equity is immoral or grossly unfair behavior. So that we defined sin, sin as an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law and actor guarded as a serious or regrettable fault, offense, or omission. And lastly, transgression is an act that goes against a law, rule, conduct or an offense. So let's start with let's talk a little bit about not just how the dictionary defines these terms, but how we see them spart interspersed in related in Scripture,
Tony Arsenal 53:31
yeah, I mean, on one level, sometimes we can get a little too wrapped up in parsing out every word. So sometimes people will get super, super jazzed up about the fact that these three words are used, and they will draw really firm hard distinctions and make whole theological points on the basis of a difference between the word sin and the word iniquity. And while there is a certain there's certain shades of meaning, all These words exist within the same semantic range. They're all commenting on the same thing. And it's I think it's question 14 of the Westminster shorter catechism. What is sin? Sin is anyone to conformity or transgression of the law of God? So, on a certain level, all of these words mean the same thing. They're all talking about different, various shades of meaning of ways that you violate the law of God, which is a sin. So all transgressions are sins. All iniquity is sin. In a certain level, all sin is a transgression. I'll send us an equity, but there are different variations and shades of meaning. So the word sin tends to be broader, right? It's more of a catch all term. It refers to as the Catechism says, any any lack of conformity or any positive, positive violation of the law, like positive meaning like an active violation of the law. So it means you you don't live up to the the expectations of the law or you violate an expectation of the law, right? It's not enough to not just desire, it's not enough to not just actually not steal, that would be a transgression of the law, that would be a positive violation of the law, right, but actually not desiring to steal, that would be a lack of conformity to the law, because the desire not to steal or the prohibition against stealing, not only includes not actually stealing, but it also involves being satisfied with the goods you have and not being envious of the goods of your neighbor. So So that's kind of seen as a more broad term that really kind of covers all of them. iniquity, you know, there's different ways to look at it in the Scripture, iniquity tends to be more of an intentional thing like a premeditated thing, right to to live in iniquity is to live a life where you're actively intentionally violating God's law in a sense that you're plotting against holiness, you're plotting against your own sanctification in a sense. So an example of that might be Someone who, who has plans to commit adultery, right? They're thinking about how they're going to do it, how they're not going to get caught, how they're going to put themselves in the right situations how they're going to cover their tracks. That's iniquity. It's a, it's a high handed, intentional, premeditated and usually habitual violation of God's law. And then transgression has more to do with that positive violation. It's a further clarification on sin, that a transgression is when you violate a known standard. So if I'm driving down the road, and there's no speed limit sign, which is very common in kind of rural New Hampshire, there's no speed limit sign, and I'm doing 40 and the cop pulls me over and says, you were doing 40 and a 30. It's not going to be it's not going to do me any good to say I didn't know that the speed limit was 30. He's gonna say ignorance of the law is not an excuse. used to break the law. But that is not the same thing. And in a lot of cases, you're going to get more leniency from the court in a situation than that, like that. Then if you're driving down the road that has 30 miles speed limit signs posted every every half mile, and you're doing 40, that's a different situation. That would be a transgression of the law rather than a almost like an innocent. I don't mean like you're innocent, but an innocent violation of an unknown standard. That's still a sin. It's still a sin to violate the law of God. But if you're not aware of the law of God, it's not quite the same as calling in a train a train transgression.
Jesse Schwamb 57:36
Right? Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think that what I realized and thinking about this question is that I do tend to actually parse these words in slightly subtle ways. Even I don't often express them explicitly with different definitions. So even if you just take these in our own language, right, the part of the word can only be used in certain ways. So for instance, I often think of sin I think the Bible describes this as something reflective of our essence or nature, and so it is permeating it is it is descriptive. It is a verb as well, of course you can sin, but it's used explicitly in many ways to describe the content in nature of our being. When you get to words like transgression, you can of course, transgress. And so I think what you have here is this manifestation of sin in its nature, the outward working of that being going against or committing an offense against God's law and transgression is the perfect word to describe sin and action. And then of course, when you get to iniquity, you have I think it's something that's another descriptor. Of course you can commit iniquity, but you can't like a niqua ties, if that's a verb, like, we're basically describing, like you said, this sense again, of coming against God and disobedience coming against some kind of standard. And it's not only that you're coming against the standard, it's that the perversion of your inner being is what propagates or pushes you to toward disobedience against some kind of standard. And what I think is interesting is, the Bible is brilliant because each of these words, again, like taking a jewel and turning it over in your hands and looking at it from different angles and directions. Each of these words allows us to do that understand something about the natural man outside of God. For me, they all coalesce around the concept of ungodliness. Yeah, that's where they find the unification because the little talks of the ungodly as those who are separated from God, and godliness is the condition of being polluted with sin. It is the outworking, which is also transgression. It is best described by iniquity, yeah, so to be ungodly is to act in a way that is contrary to the nature of God to actively oppose God and disobedience, or to have an irreverent disregard for God. And so of course, the Bible is often speaking about the flesh as a synonym for many of those things in reference to things that emanate from our sinful or iniquitous nature's, into the acts of the flesh and desires of the world. Fall all under this category of on godliness. So here's something that again, I love because the Bible does exceedingly well. It brings coalescence, but there is diversity in the unification of these terms. Yeah, that makes sense. So we're seeing like the comprehensive nature of what it means to be human, outside of God. And that is to say, here we have a complete picture of just how depraved we are that we are sinful, that were found in iniquity, and that we transgress God's law. And while they all, like you said, means something in the same semantic universe, they all sufficiently point to subtly, subtly different explanations of what it means to be sinful, that's worth wild and beautiful that the scripture can delineate them and bring that diagnosis to us. So it's not just like going to the doctor and like, you know, being sick and saying, Yeah, I don't know Something's definitely wrong with you don't know where it is. Here we have these kind of specific entry points by which God is bringing conviction. The Scriptures are that mirror that's holding us up and allowing us to see a crystal clear image. And you know, returning and I'm looking at my profile, I'm seeing transgression, I'm looking at my face front and I'm seeing iniquity. I'm looking to the side and seeing sin. And all those things are different in yet they're all the same wrapped up in ungodliness.
Tony Arsenal 1:01:17
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think sometimes to just like we sometimes overly parse out these words. Sometimes we also forget that like, these are just three of the ways that the Bible describes this opposition of the man's flesh to God. Right. So the Bible also talks about ungodliness. unfaithfulness, right, lawlessness. unrighteousness unholiness corruption. You know, the language of death sometimes is associated with sin. unbelieving, anti christ, like all of these different phrases, in very real senses refer to this same concept of living according to the flesh, and by that we mean living according to the principle of opposition to God. Right? So Paul uses the word flesh, other biblical writers use other words, but but the the concept of the opposition to God, right I actually, if I were to sum up and say like, what's the the chief attribute of sin? I would say it's lawlessness. But but that's not really all that different from saying ungodliness Right, right. I was actually reading Herman witzy us this morning. And he has this big this long section in the beginning of the economy, the convincement got a man where it actually talks about the sort of like incoherence of the idea of the universe not having law of rational creatures not having law, because he says, it would be uncon inconceivable for God to order a universe in which he was not to be praised or obeyed. And so the even the idea of God commanding the creature not to obey Him is an incoherency. So this concept of law is built into the nature of reality. And Strictly speaking, what what man has his knowledge of the law? And so the lawlessness, I think it's in first john way says sin is lawlessness. That's really saying like sin is any opposition to the law of God, which you could boil down and say sin is any opposition to God himself to the reality of who God is and any challenge to His sovereignty and authority. Whether that's a challenge in the form of violating the natural law, or a challenge in the form of violating the positive law that God has given us the additional laws that go beyond the law of nature, any violation or transgression of God's law, is it is a opposition or is RC Sproul used to put it is an is an act of cosmic treason against the Sovereign of the universe. And so well There are these different various shades of meaning. And there are a lot more words in the Bible used to describe sin than just these three. It's also true that when you really boil it down, all of those words are getting at the reality that God is God. And therefore he is the sovereign. He's the Lord. And we owe him obedience. I mean, that's, I don't remember where in the Catechism, it's in the 40s, probably the 50s. It talks about the preface to the 10 commandments and what the preface of the 10 commandments teaches us. And what the preface to the 10 commandments teaches us is that because because God is the Lord, and our God, and our Redeemer, that we are bound to keep all of his commandments, but you could you could cut out that Redeemer part and it would still be true because the Lord is God, we are bound to keep all of his commandments. So that's really where it gets at. So, in one sense, this is another one of those yes or no questions? Yes and no questions. What's the difference between an equity sin and transaction in reality, like there isn't What, like they're all pointing at the same thing. But then there are also these shades of meaning that we we can really get some good fruits from some good facets to the diamond. If we really look at how the scripture uses the terms differently.
Jesse Schwamb 1:05:13
What I appreciate about this question is it draws our minds in that direction, because there can be a time where we just kind of think of these all as purely synonymous, right? And the question is giving us pause to consider, well, are they different? And why is that in the Bible using so many different words when it could have just used one. And I think at the very least, what this points to is just the amazing depravity and the ubiquity of the human condition, that one word was not sufficient that one to express some kind of differentiation, while at the same time drawing together this overwhelming sense that it is so bad, you know, there really were awful people, and that we needed a savior who could overcome all of these words, and all of their new ones, and then in addition, in the way in which they're all brought together, and so it's a good reminder that Jesus didn't come to make bad people good. It came to make dead people alive. Right. And so I figured that the best way for us to kind of end probably our conversation, especially as question because I know brother Dave wasn't trying to like just put us on a downer note here. But this is a great question. I want to read just a couple of verses from Romans chapter eight. Because amazingly, and this is amazing. Jesus sacrificed himself for all of these words that we've just used for the glory of God and for our good. And this is what romans eight six through 11 says, For while we were still weak at just the right time, yeah, Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person though. Perhaps for a good person, one might even dare to die. Yeah, but God shows his love for us, and that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since therefore, we have now been justified by His blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God for while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son much more now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life? Yeah, more than that. We also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Yeah.
Tony Arsenal 1:07:15
Yeah, that's a good word. The Definitive word, it was the Scripture. So yes, it is. It actually legitimately is the definitive word.
Jesse Schwamb 1:07:27
We've finally done it.
Tony Arsenal 1:07:28
Yes. Well, we've done it before, just not that way.
Jesse Schwamb 1:07:31
I guess so God's done it all. It's true.
Tony Arsenal 1:07:34
So Jesse, I love question casts but we have to bring this to a close. I'm just not going to ask you because you don't know it anymore. But if you want to get in on the next question cast, you can call and leave us a voicemail at six to 74442767 which spells out rose, or you can email us at info at reformed brotherhood com. We do take email questions. We do. Take some questions through Facebook, although I'm not great at checking Facebook, so sorry to that person who got the automated response that said, we'll be with you in a few minutes and then I messaged them back three and a half months later. My bad. Well, but you can leave us questions there. You can send it through Twitter if you'd like we really have a bunch of different venues to get ahold of us. And we have some sweet reform brotherhood gear. If you head over to confessional where.com you can look for the podcast, podcast collaborations on the left, you get some sweet reformed brotherhood gear. You can get some sweet reform pilgrims gear. There's lots of cool stuff up there. And it supports a guy who has been so generous with his time and his energy and his money with the show supports you guys to shop through there. You can some great shirts, some great gear, and you can support the show a little bit too.
Jesse Schwamb 1:08:51
And we're coming up on that time of year. That is somewhat controversial. But it is often that time of year where maybe for no good reason you're thinking you know what I'd like to All of my loved ones some type of gift and maybe present that gift a unified time. In December on the calendar. Yes, if you're thinking that way, confessional calm is a great place to go. It's a couple of wonderful guests we've got mugs we've got is the beer Stein still available it
Tony Arsenal 1:09:15
is it will be available. I'm making an executive decision it will be available until December 15.
Jesse Schwamb 1:09:24
Wow, that was like a really specific date.
Tony Arsenal 1:09:26
Yeah, I was gonna say November 30. And I realized that only be like two days after this episode comes out. So December 15. Reform brother and beer Stein is going away for ever,
Jesse Schwamb 1:09:37
forever so ever. You're going to want to check that out. There's t shirts, hoodies, mugs, all kinds. There's no stationery, because Tony I would buy it all it's true. And that wouldn't be any good. But this is a great kind of thing when you in all seriousness, when you purchase something from confessional calm that is related to the podcast now is that support the proprietor of that particular website portion of it does go to help our ministry here, and we're so grateful for that. So if you're looking, you'd like to purchase a little something and you'd like some of that to go toward us, we're super grateful. And we hope that you'll enjoy the beer Stein because it's a 22 ounce people 22 and ceramic, legit German style, beer style. It's a thing of
Tony Arsenal 1:10:20
beauty. Your heart will be married by the time you're done with that beer. I mean, I don't know your heart could be not married looking at that thing. It's a thing of beauty. But if it's not, it will be married by the time you finish 22 ounces.
Jesse Schwamb 1:10:34
And if that's not your thing, there's a really equally beautiful mug that I have 15 ounce coffee mug, and you probably want to get it now because it's one of the last versions of the logo where I'm wearing a shirt. So you're definitely going to pick that up.
Tony Arsenal 1:10:48
Yeah, you can drink beer out of a coffee mug too. If you just need some smaller.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:52
I'm you I'm a loud.
Tony Arsenal 1:10:54
Yeah, I mean a beer Stein is like a beer mug. It's like just
Unknown Speaker 1:10:57
bigger. But yeah You're
Unknown Speaker 1:11:02
factually correct.
Jesse Schwamb 1:11:04
Actually, Greg, well, this has been great. I love chatting about these questions. So thank you for all who continue to call and leave voicemails, all your voicemails get to us. So be patient with us. As we go through them, we're making our way through the backlog, but continue to call in and we will keep discussing them. You can't stop won't stop. It's true. It's true. So, Tony, this is it. We got to shut this thing down because otherwise I'm gonna talk to you about gel pens. So until next time, honor everyone loved the
Tony Arsenal 1:11:36
Brotherhood.