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Jesse and Tony talk about Covenant Lawsuits and leave you hanging a little.

Jesse Schwamb 0:02
Welcome to Episode 170 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where we still believe in one another.

Hey, brother, Hey, brother, or maybe I should say, Hey, brother.

Jesse Schwamb 0:38
That's an epically good song. I just want to say that it that's a song that when I heard it, not only did I think wow, that's perfect for our cast, but it's just it's so captivating and Scott, I don't know it. It's just brilliant. I love everything about it.

Tony Arsenal 0:52
Yeah, his his music is all really good. Yeah, I like stumbled upon that song too. I'd never heard it before. And I was digging through archive.org to find like any sort of song, and I had stumbled on this old like bluegrass style banjo song like Oh brother, where art style song. And I had like sort of like mocked up an episode intro and then I just managed to stumble on this other one on YouTube. And I was like, yeah, this is way better.

Jesse Schwamb 1:21
So here's kind of the crazy thing about that piece of music. So I didn't realize until, like, very recently, actually, that he has a couple of pieces that get a lot of radio play. Like he has a couple of other songs that people are widely familiar with. This is not one of those for some No,

Tony Arsenal 1:37
it's not. It's not. It's funny, though, because every once while they'll come on the radio somewhere that I'm not anticipating it. And I'll be like, looking around trying to figure out who's listen to the podcast, and I'll be like, oh, they're not actually listening to the podcast. They're just listening to the song.

Jesse Schwamb 1:51
Because that happens a lot to you that you'll just be in a place and you're like somebody here is listening to the cast. I can feel it. I can hear it.

Tony Arsenal 1:58
It's like I can hear that song. And that, like there's no association with anything else besides our podcasts with that song. So I immediately I immediately expect the tagline to jump in and you know, announce the episode number.

Jesse Schwamb 2:13
So I would love it. If sometime you're like one time you're in Kohl's for instance, or the grocery store, and it comes on you think it's just playing and then somehow they mistakenly are pumping through our podcast and my voice comes in. Yeah, I would love that. I would. That'd be pretty surprised. Yeah, that'd be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Would you mind if I just go right into affirmations, denials? Because mine is music related? Let's do it. And by music related, I mean, it is music. Let's go. This week, I'm affirming with an album but now I have this history on this cast, which is is very accurate of recommending music. That's of, shall we say a harder nature. In other words, there's often beautiful, yelling and screaming but in a way that sky glorifying and uplifts the soul. And so That reputation is widely deserved. In this time, I'm recommending something that's not to that. So I want to say that up top just in case people are listening and thinking, I refuse to take an affirmation of music from Jesse, but I'm affirming with an album that I found a couple of months ago and I've been listening to totally surprised me, and really am I surprised by an album, but this one has done it in a way that I can't remember having happened to me before. And so the album without further ado, the name of the album is called soul hymns. It's by East la vista worship and Mark Barlow. But here's the thing that's amazing about this album. It is a worship album, but is it is in an r&b funk, jazz style. It's as if john legend made an album about Jesus it would be called soul hymns, but it would be by his lavista worship and Mark Barlow. So I'm affirming with this album because everybody should give it a listen through. I think there's only like six tracks on it. It is amazing. And it is this like wonderfully chill worship for music that's in a kind of surprising tone because I don't come across many albums that are written in this style that are uniquely oriented toward worshiping God. And this one does it in spades. So I everybody, honestly, even if you're thinking, am I into that kind of style? The answer is yes. And you should listen to it. It's called soul hymns.

Tony Arsenal 4:24
You have the most eclectic taste in music that I think I've ever encountered with anyone. Well, I think if someone saw you on the streets, their first response would not be I bet that dude listens to like, like, post metal like screamo hardcore. Really? I don't even know. I might have just made that up. But actually, I would think they would think that I think they'd be like, yeah, that guy probably listens to like, I don't know, jazz, something like a little low key. But no,

Jesse Schwamb 4:57
as long as you didn't say country, I have to draw the line. There, I just cannot get it. I know this is gonna trigger so many people. But I have to say, and this is not my denial, but I have to say country music is an oxymoron, just by way of definition.

Tony Arsenal 5:12
Yeah, it's true. Yeah. I mean, I was, I'd say music like, somebody has to save. You'd be listening to music. So that excludes country.

Jesse Schwamb 5:20
Right? Exactly. Yeah. No, I don't know. I don't think with the category you just gave like the post hardcore screamo is an actual like bona fide category, but I would listen to it just based on those companies. Sounds amazing.

Tony Arsenal 5:33
Who gets to decide what is and what is not a bona fide category?

Jesse Schwamb 5:37
That's a great question. I have no idea. I don't big music. Yeah. Corporate labels. I don't know the bands themselves. Probably just pick a pop. Yeah, say we're not this. But we're this. So but this is a really unique album. And I was given some authorization and permission by my wife to say that she and I rarely like the same music and by really never and I actually introduced To this album just yesterday, I was given it some time to marinate for myself. And she has also been really enjoying it. So it's it listen to it only because I think it was surprised like it's totally unique. It's almost like you're gonna listen to it and think this is going to be some kind of like really cheesy Love Song stuff, but the music and the musicality is onpoint. It's beautiful. And it is deep theological content. So that's what surprised me about this. It's just a unique blend of stuff. And I'm absolutely loving it. Like I said, it's got a little r&b little gospel, little jazz, but this is the kind of thing you can put on during dinner and you'll just be like, why is my life so good right now? And it's because the music

Tony Arsenal 6:38
Nice, nice. I'll have to check it out.

Jesse Schwamb 6:41
Yeah, so how about you? What do you got for an affirmation?

Tony Arsenal 6:43
So I am affirming. I have long said that they need to publish a Bible that has creeds and confessions in the back and I was so excited when the Reformation Study Bible by ligonier came out and had several of the reformed confessions, like in the back of the book in the back of the class, and crossway just published an edition of the ESV that includes 13 different significant creedal or confessional statements. And it's not just reformed confession. So like there's, there's the articles of religion, there's Lutheran confessions, there's the London Baptist confession. And then of course, the Westminster the and then a three forms of unity. So I'm affirming this Bible, because you know, I'm not one of those people. That's like, study Bibles are bad. Like I if you want to use a study Bible, that's fine, but for me, like all of the chatter and all the stuff that's kind of around a study Bible, I find it really distracting. I find myself in church, reading the study notes rather than listening to the sermon. So having a an ESV Bible that doesn't have all of the study note chatter, but also still has confessions easily at hand in the in the back. I find that really, really sweet. And right now I don't know if this is a limited time. Price, I would assume it probably is. But I'm not exactly sure why they did this. But there's actually a special edition that you can only purchase through the Westminster seminary bookstore that looks absolutely gorgeous. And I purchased it today to order I ordered it today. And it's normally $50. And you can get it for 25 right now. And also the true tone style, which you can get through Amazon, you can get it 50% off at wt s books. And then also they have a high quality like a goat skin full leather one that's like $230 you can get that for 50% off at the WTF bookstore as well. So I haven't quite seen it yet. So hopefully I'm not going to be backtracking on this but I can't imagine. I mean ESV always says a really good job of putting their Bibles together so they're a steady pleasing and they're relatively well assembled so they don't fall apart like they last. But this just looks like a gorgeous Bible that have it's not your typical kind of like fake leather. This one's like a cloth overboard with like a special. It has like a special insignia on it. So I'm pretty stoked about it. I can't wait for it to get here.

Jesse Schwamb 9:19
I saw this come through my email because yeah, I've subscribed to like the Westminster bookstore, which sub affirmation everybody should just got and subscribe to their email list because they're always just sending out really great stuff all the deals they have going on all the new things that are coming out it's never junk to me I always love to see what's going on there and what they're printing what they're what they're selling. And when I saw this my response was was literally like oh yeah, yeah, like this. This just looks like I hate to say like Bibles are like a personal thing. Of course the Word of God is is something that's should be ubiquitous and its expression and accurate. And it's printing, the form of that they're like you said, chatters interesting word like that made me think of like the state you know, it says Like tweets and some tweets, and sometimes you don't want to look at all that stuff. So a Bible is personal essence that we're blessed to live in an age where you get all these wonderful printings of it. And you can kind of get the kind of interface and the kind of additional commentary and supplemental knowledge and writing that you want. So this is like, I agree with you right in the middle. And that's fair. Do you think that's fair? It's like, yeah, it's got some things but it's not as in depth as like a traditional Study Bible. And I think that's okay. I also loved your impression of the dude who doesn't affirm study Bibles, whatever that voices Yeah, voice was, yeah, definitely annoying. So I feel like I would disagree with that dude. All day. Yeah.

Tony Arsenal 10:38
Yeah, I mean, there's a reasonable arguments for why study Bibles may not be the best thing. I just don't buy that argument. It's not a bad argument. I just I'm not convinced by it. But personally, like, and this maybe this is really arrogant. I don't know. My study and in seminary and my own personal city, I think have gotten me To the point where I'm, I probably don't really need the level of knowledge that as an average Study Bible gives you like, I've already I'm already kind of there. So having that and having all the maps and the pictures and the diagrams, it just, I don't know, it's just distracting. So I'm excited that this is it's not quite a reader's edition Bible that doesn't even have verse numbers or anything like that. But it does seem like it's very much a stripped down. It's just chapter and verse there. I don't think there's even cross references in here. I just I like that about this Bible. But then if I do want to flip open to the pack, and just take a look at the confession on a particular question or a particular issue, or comparing contrast what the Lutheran confessions say, it's right there for me as well.

Jesse Schwamb 11:45
Yeah, let's move on to some denials. How about you go first since I started, what are you denying this week?

Tony Arsenal 11:50
So this one is another one of those ones that takes a little bit of explanation but not too much. So, I'm denying understaffing, so You know, I'm a manager and yes, things can can be unpredictable at times. But there's always a cycle, right? You if you know your business, you know, when you have peak volumes and when you have like slow periods, and sometimes there's a seasonality to it, but usually it's a weekly cycle. So, okay, I was at the grocery store on Saturday, Saturday morning, right, which is a peak grocery shopping time. And there was one person working at the deli who had no hustle whatsoever. So I probably stood there waiting for them to cut like some smoked turkey for like 15 minutes. And like, I just don't, I just don't understand. Like, I get it. Maybe they don't have enough people. But you would think that if they're going to double staff, the deli at any point during the week, it would be Saturday morning when they know it's going to be busy.

Jesse Schwamb 12:53
So you were looking for some double time to Delhi action and let me ask you this question. is in your grocery store Can you not like just submit your order and like they text you and let you know when it's ready

Tony Arsenal 13:06
now our grocery store is like out of the Stone Age there's like nothing going on there. I don't you guys have the fancy scanners that you take around the store which is my bag ever.

Jesse Schwamb 13:18
Yes, the scan guns are like you just scan the stuff it keeps track how much you spent so far you throw everything into a bag and then when you leave you more or less basically pay and then walk out. It's super fun. Yeah, just just shooting stuff in the grocery store. It's super fun. But I don't I'll be honest, I don't often grocery shop My wife is very gracious and in doing that tour for us. When I go though I was amazed at how like you there's like electronic screen you can like order your stuff in the deli and then they text you and they also I think they also do the thing where they can announce it but it is super nice for that very reason. It's kind of like now i don't know maybe you were just going for the smoked turkey and you were like please, I just need some smoked turkey just help me out here. But if you don't if you need other things that Nice because of course, you can just go to that first and then proves but in your case, what's the alternative? Like, you can't really step away right

Tony Arsenal 14:08
now, I mean, you I guess you could but yeah, I mean, I always I everybody has their own like pattern or route, they go through the grocery store and the produce and the deli is always the last thing that I get because it's like fresh food. So I wanted to be like the last thing that I pull off the shelf. So I'm just sitting there, I've got all my other groceries in the car, and I'm just sitting there waiting for this lady to slice the meat and she just was taking her sweet time. And I'm like, I know you don't have anywhere to go. But I have somewhere to go. So my sanctification was being tested after what we talked about before about being polite to service people. Yeah, trying really hard to be polite. But I did pull a manager aside on my way out and I said, you know, it's really frustrating that like you only have one person staffing at the deli and she's not even really hustling. And he was like, Yeah, what are you going to do? And I was like, hire more people. Like there's a lot of things you could do. So I don't know, I don't think that they were too receptive to my suggestions, but

Jesse Schwamb 15:05
I mean, so I would say in your defense, it seems like the answer to that as being what are you going to do? Is I particularly poor with something so quiet or customers concern? So I think that I would I would also not feel fantastic about that if the person you're trying to bring this to their attention is just kind of like Well, my hands are tied. Yeah, really a great answer.

Tony Arsenal 15:29
Yeah, you know, just this is a sub sub denial. This is a store that has like the self checkout area. So I'm like, Okay, I'll just throw it out there we use Price Chopper because it's all we've got. There's a shot but they stink. So Price Chopper is where we go to buy our groceries. And I'm used to stop and shop like that's where we went when we lived in Massachusetts and Connecticut. Stop and shop is awesome but Price Chopper is kind of iffy. And like at at stop and shop. They don't care if you put yourself food in your bag after you scan at the self checkout, they like we just trust you at Price Chopper if you don't put your food in the bag like everything stops. And so a lot of times, a lot of times the scanner or like the scale that senses whether you've put your item in a bag, it's not working properly. And this like this all is all in the same understaffing issue is there has to be someone who like pushes the button on their little master computer to create your thing before you can scan the next thing, but there's hardly ever someone at that desk to push the stupid button. See you're standing there looking around like an idiot waiting for someone to come push it and then they wander over. They push the button and then they walk away and I want to be like it's gonna freeze up again in a second. Can you just wait for like a minute while I finish this? But no, they always leave. So that's my denial understaffed grocery stores my denial today.

Jesse Schwamb 16:56
This self checkout is a whole unique experience, isn't it because it's one of the I've long thought it's brilliant on the part of the grocery stores because yeah, some ways it's us doing their job for them. But sometimes it's faster for us to just take care of ourselves. Yeah, bag it real quick to jump in there. And some people love to get their hands dirty and be like, I want to bag my own squash because that's how I feel about it. Yeah, I've often had this love hate relationship with the self checkout because it always it can make you feel like a thief even though you're doing nothing wrong. And the scale struggle is real. So I remember there was a time I don't remember what we were buying, but we were putting a bunch of stuff into the bag. And you know, if you scan like a package of gum or something super light, like toilet paper or something like that, it'll say like, please put the item in the bag and you'll be like, I just put it in there and a bag, please put the item in the bag. And then I feel like the robot gets increasingly testy and finally like, yeah, you are a thief. The police are coming for you right now. Please put the item in the bag. Yeah, it's just and you're right. Because what happens is like, I mean, they're trying obviously to prevent like, legitimate daft, but It requires somebody else to kind of oversee the whole process, they have to come over to you. And of course, they're like, yes, no big deal. This happens all the time. Like, don't worry about it. Whereas I'm just like, Listen, I love the Lord. Like I want to pay for this food. Like I want to, I want to provide for my family. Like I just wanted the doublemint it does. It's not registering it in the bag.

Tony Arsenal 18:19
Yeah. See, this is the beauty of the of the stop and shop model, though. Right? So when you've got that you've got the scanner gun you carry around your door, like you very easily could take advantage of that. Because the best part about that is you can bag your groceries as you go through the store. So like you don't have to worry about like bagging them on the fly. You just put them in as well through the store. Right But in order to prevent theft what they do is they do random audits. Yeah. On on the self checkout, so like they could just do that at at any grocery store, do a random audit and you know, like you're you're always could get audited and if you done something's just Taxes like you could get audited at any time. So do you want to risk cheating for a pack of gum and stealing it? Or do you want to just pay for the gum, most people will just pay for the gum. Like maybe once a while someone will try to game the system. But for the most part, people are more afraid of getting caught than they are spending $1 and a half on gum.

Jesse Schwamb 19:18
That's probably true. I we love that process where you get to scan it yourself while you go to the store and bag it up. And in our store, they do the random audits. And here's the great thing they used to give you a discount if they audited you. And it was like No, it's like maybe like three to $5. But I would love that partly because like we're we're always putting everything in that we scan. So there's nothing that we're trying to steal. So I love when they be like we have to audit you because I'd be like, boom, honesty. Give me my $5

Tony Arsenal 19:46
free discount. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 19:49
It's the little things.

Tony Arsenal 19:50
Yeah. What about you? What are you denying today?

Jesse Schwamb 19:52
Yeah, so this is nothing like grocery stores. But it is something that I think we've talked about before, and I'm basically I think this Real quick is that I'm denying against a lack of understanding presuppositional ism in whatever worldview that you hold so this past week, I heard a really interesting and extended interview with Penn jillette of the famed Penn and Teller, magical variety show which is in Vegas actually he's done a lot of other things. And I've enjoyed Penn in the past like Penn and Teller magic is like super interesting, I think like they're probably at the pinnacle of their craft. They're super interesting men, and they have for sure a talent and a skill set in that particular arena. And Penn is like, outspoken on many particular issues. And I think actually, he's a very, he's a very intelligent man. There's lots of me that appreciates what he said in this interview, but many of you probably know that he's also a very staunch atheist. And so what's interesting to me in this interview is there's so many things about philosophy and about worldview that I thought he's on point he's diagnosing the condition of the human heart. Yeah, problem that I have with his worldview is that like almost every other They're atheistic worldview, or let me say it this way, at least was like with most everyone who expresses that view, they're borrowing from some other worldview to make all of their points. And he did that throughout this interview. And he's the kind of guy they want to say. But you're smarter than that, like you actually understand something about philosophy, and about how to construct an argument how to stay away from straw man. But he would be speaking, of course, about how he believed that there was a strong sense of cumulative aggregate or ubiquitous morality in the world. But of course, he just starts there without being able to defend where he gets that from. And so it sounds very polished. It sounds like well, you can be an atheist and be moral and that is true, but you have no reason to be. And he was trying to basically inculcate his argument with that there is good reason to be that way that human beings are apparently that way or evidently that way by their nature. So the thing is, this is like something we all have to be very careful about is not smuggling in something else, when we're trying to make our point. The other thing that he said i thought was like very conflicting can flicking not convicting is that he spoke about how, basically he feels that the Christian worldview in particular, is very dishonest, because what it does is when it can't explain something, it says that the explanation for that thing is God Himself. And so he says, That's far too simple. It doesn't make a lot of sense. At the same time, he said, Well, science is really honest, science is true, because scientists will admit when they don't understand something. I didn't quite understand the arguments. I haven't heard a lot of scientists be like, well, we just don't understand this. with anything I see is that I think the fallacy of what he's trying to present is that just because something is simple, doesn't mean it's not true. Just because God is the explanation and that is a simple straightforward answer. In fact, outcomes raising would point us in that direction doesn't mean that it is a falsity. I think what was most struck with this in this interview because I knew some about him but not a lot is that as a young man, he what he saw the dangers he's How people being taken advantage of by mentalism in particular. And so I think a lot of his worldview has been shaped from the fact that mentalism as is presented in some circles as legitimate science is actually just a lot of trickery. And so he's perceived now any kind of spiritual dimension as some kind of form of fraud. And so he pushes against that. And so we see a lot of that here. But what I find that I'm dying against is the fact that he was not careful enough in particular enough in the presuppositions of what he was saying, because in building his worldview, he actually had to borrow from others, especially with respect to morality, sometimes against that.

Tony Arsenal 23:39
Yeah, you know, I recently listened to a brief history of time by Stephen Hawking on audio book, and one of the things that struck me about that book is there is this repeated you know, Stephen Hawking was incredibly honest with the fact that like, there are things that science does not Understand, and probably will, by definition will not be able to understand. So for example, the big theory of the Big Bang, you know, he says like, well, there may have been, there may have been like a universe of sorts before the big bang. And something happened that caused it to soar, like shrink into this singularity or into this compressed state. But because nothing prior to the Big Bang, could have any sort of causal effect or causal observation in our understanding of universe, that we can just ignore it. And then there's also this element of, you know, because because most of these models rely on mathematics, right, a lot of the particles that that particle physics, quantum physics talks about, we've never directly observed. They're just predicted by mathematical models, right? once they find out when they figure out that they're wrong. What they do is they adjust the math. Sometimes they're incredibly accurate and they predict things that really aren't quite accurate. But there is still this element of like, well, if we can't explain it, then we're just going to fix the math, we're just going to postulate some solution that solves the math that balances the equation, even though we can't observe it. So dark, dark energy and dark matter as an example is they've observed that the universe is expanding. But they can't quite explain why it's not expanding faster, all of their mathematical models and their calculations of how much mass there is, and therefore, how much gravitational pull there should be. All of that says that the universe should be expanding faster than it is. So their answer to that was not to say, well, maybe we don't understand gravity, or maybe we don't, or maybe our math is wrong. Their answer was to say there has to be some sort of matter that's exerting a gravitational force that we can't see, measure sense or touch and it has to be everywhere, but it but we trust that it's there because otherwise our model is wrong. And we can't Explain it. Well, that's it. That's basically a god of the gaps argument, the difference with Christianity, and this is what I think people like Penn they miss is our answer is not a god of the gaps argument. Our answer is that God God pervades all parts of the universe. And so it's it's obvious to us that not only is God, the cause of the things we can't understand, God is the cause of all the things that we do understand. So it's not that we we fill in the gaps with our understanding. We when we can't explain something in terms of secondary causation, then we still say, Well, God is the one who sovereignly bringing it about and sustaining and upholding by the power of his being. That's not a god of the gaps argument. It's just that's just the Christian worldview. So but i think i think you're right pen is a very articulate, intelligent, and I think thoughtful person, you know, he has one video out there, where he basically says he doesn't understand why atheists get upset. With Christians who try to proselytize because if, if a Christian really believes that they have the words of life and that someone is going to be tormented in hell forever if they don't come to know Jesus, that it is like this supreme act of cowardice and selfishness not to do everything you can to convince everyone around you have that truth. So he says, like, I'm not offended when Christians try to do that actually shows that they're caring about me and that they desire for me to come to some sort of benefitted state that I'm not in. He's like, I just think they're wrong. But I think he's really thoughtful. I actually, you know, he's one of those people that I actually think is not far from the kingdom. Because it seems like obviously, like with the inner working of the Holy Spirit, that that's the necessary step, a necessary component of conversion, but God still uses means it seems like it a lot of ways. It would just take a little nudge for him to understand that he's borrowing Christian capital with some of these comments that he makes for him to look back at his whole career and all the things he stated and realized, and this is the beauty of presuppositional ism when it's done right, he will look back at all of the things he said and realize that he has been arguing for Christianity this entire time and didn't even realize it.

Jesse Schwamb 28:13
Right. And that's very possible. I would love to see that. Right. He got very outspoken, he's very articulate. And there's a lot of respect about him. And I think it's precisely because of his logical focus, that he is maybe particularly primed for understanding the things that you've just said. Yeah, it's just one of those things. It's a grand and I'm going to use this phrase probably later on. We talked about that pastor Micah that we're looking at today. It's like a grand adventure and missing the truth and adventure of missing the point because I mean, we I think we've talked about this before but real quick like this idea that I think also with somebody like pendulum. They're they're priding themselves and rightfully so and trying to analyze the situation by using an extreme amount of logic and by understand the probabilities that surround that logic, but I think there is a bias is where the certainly is a bias in the probabilistic dimensions that they're using, for instance, you know, with like, with Watson and Crick developing like the are discovering, rather the the strands of DNA for them. And for somebody like Penn, they look at that. And they're saying, This is so incredibly complex the amount of information embedded in what we've just discovered. And the order with which it's expressed in built around is so incredibly complex, that it seems like there would be a designer but our worldview prevents us from positing such a designer. So we have to say instead is that this came from alien spores. Now think about that, like from a probabilistic dimension, like is that the greater probability? Of course not that the idea that there's a God and that he has made himself manifest in this world or that there is some kind of alien life, of which there is very little evidence that there's going to be some sense that like, well, that is the stronger probability. You're we see like just a straight bias. It's not a cognitive bias. It is just straight worldview bias. Just straight out of Romans one like we're all prisoners of war under that kind of worldview before God comes and saves us from that kind of insanity, honestly. So it was it I'm not denying against pen of course, because I think pen is a human being that's made in the image of God whom God loves dearly. I'm really just more against like what he represents in that expression. And as we can all be prone to those kind of problems and that we ought to just thank God that he has saved us from again, looking at the world through those kinds of eyes.

Tony Arsenal 30:35
Yeah, yeah. Why don't we Why don't we get into our topic today? So Jesse, why don't I read Micah chapter six, and I'm going to read verses one through seven here, please. Oh, God's word says, hear what the Lord says arise. plead your case before the mountains and let the hills hear your voice. Here you mountains the indictment of the Lord and you enduring foundations of the earth. The Lord has an indictment against his people, and he will contend with Israel. Oh my people, what have I done to you? How have I wearied you answer me, for I brought you up from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery. And I sent you before Moses, Aaron and Miriam. Oh my people remember what bailet king of Moab device and what balem son of be or answered him. And what happened from shittin to gig Gilgel that you may know the righteous acts of the Lord, with what shall I come before the Lord and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings and calves a year old? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, and with 10,000 rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

Jesse Schwamb 31:51
Beautiful. I mean, there's so much that we've talked about already with Micah and what strikes me as I'm hearing you read that passage is just the many different ways in which God is communicating with his people through Micah. And here, it's almost as if we get to see yet another scene, a different perspective, so to speak, because in this perk up, there's like a turning to like a prophetic covenant lawsuit with that, like God Himself is going to prosecute the terms of the covenant against his people who have been disobedient. And this message that you just read opens with this judgment scene in which God is basically the point if Micah has been appointed as his prosecutor, the mountains are witnesses, and Israel is the accused. And so it strikes me as this amazing scene like if you really to kind of put this in your mind as to the gravity of what's taking place here. And the only way I can really conceptualize that is kind of like a law and order SBU like style like courtroom where there's a formal structure case against Israel. God gives Israel the opportunity to express complaints against him, and then demonstrates his own covenant faithfulness, God recounts his mighty acts of deliverance, and then he demands righteousness. It's proclaimed. And it's a righteousness that consists not merely an empty ritual, but in heartfelt obedience. And so God commands Mike as His representative to really prosecute God's case, his own case against the people. And Michael obeys that command starting in verse two.

Tony Arsenal 33:15
Yeah, yeah. And this, you know, this is it's important to understand a little bit about how covenants worked in the ancient Near East. And, you know, Meredith Klein is sometimes controversial figure, but he really did bring this to, really to the forefront of people's thinking with some of his work. And so, in the ancient Near East, typically what would happen is the the suzerain, or the, the sort of stronger or greater King would have rescued a lesser King or lesser people out of some sort of dangerous situation. And as a result of that, they would institute a covenant of some sort, in which the lower the vassal party You would basically be said, here, here are the blessings or the benefits that I am going to bestow upon you. In return, here are the obligations you have to me. So you may have someone who says, I rescued you from King Asher Bhatta Paul the third, therefore, when I call for your army to come defend my land, you must respond and if you do not, I will cut you into pieces, right? That's a typical covenant structure. And so if if that that vessel or if that Susan King had called for the vassals army and the vassals army did not respond, the structure of the covenant lawsuit would follow this exact thing where the, the the suzerain King would go and before whatever tribunal or party it is, they would declare the terms of the covenant and it would start with the recounting of the, of the blessings of the covenant or what, what the Caesar and King had rescued them from. And so when your way comes through the mouth of Micah here says basically says, Why Why are you so sick of me? Why are you treating me the way you are? You know, obviously God, God is impassable. He's immutable. But this, this way that he's revealed Himself, He reveals Himself under the language of sort of confusion and frustration, right? He's saying, like, I don't understand, why, why, why are you so upset with me? What have I done to you? How have I wearied you? And then he demands an answer. And then he recounts, these are the things I've done for you. I took I brought you up out of Egypt, I redeemed you from slavery, I gave you, Moses and Aaron, and Miriam. And then don't forget, I also rescued you from bailenson balem. Then I, you know, we stage that shit, Tim and Gilgel and then you went into the promised land, he's recounting these blessings, right. And then basically, he's saying, you haven't fulfilled any of your obligations. That's the implied statements. I did all these things for you. And then you didn't do any of the things that you were obligated to. do in order to retain these covenant blessings. And that's where we get into verse six through seven is this is basically the people of Israel responding, saying like, Well, what do you want from us? Like the covenant response from the covenant people shouldn't be What do you want from us? Should I do this? Should I do that? It should be. Here's our obligation, we know what you want from us and we've done it right that's, that's the response to the faithful covenant servant. And we see precisely the opposite here in this text.

Jesse Schwamb 36:29
Classic suzer and bassel Treaty I'm glad you brought it up because I feel less nerdy now just saying you're right and that goes back even all the way to like the giving of the law through Moses right? And there's this charge like right at the beginning like you were saying against Israel, it's framed by those references to Egypt from which Israel was delivered delivered and then Gill gal Where is your enter the promised land through under the leadership of Joshua. And so all of God's This was incredible all the gods saving x during Israel's formative period, or summarize you Got the Passover in the Exodus, the guidance of the by the pillar of fire in the cloud, the miraculous provision of food and water, the provision of able leaders like Moses, Aaron, Miriam, and then victory over enemies. And what I love is God's incredible faithful provision for his people during the period of really distress, dislocation and destiny for shadows, the church's experience with Christ. And so I just pulled up real quick and thinking about this first Corinthians 10 beginning verse one real quick which reads for do not want you to be unaware brothers that are fathers were all under the cloud and all pass through the sea and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud, and in the scene all ate the same spiritual food and all drink the same spiritual drink, for they drink from the spiritual rock that follow them and that rock was Christ. So even as we read this, it's almost like we're getting to see how, because like, this is the amazing faithfulness of God and like his amazing provision in our lives for our spiritual condition, that he knows that we just like our forefathers are disobedient people. So the Providing his scriptures this honest, all this candor of him prosecuting his people because they've been disobedient, at the same time showing how we ought to rather than make the same mistakes. They did, at least with respect to saying, Well, God, haven't we come through, like, what have we done to annoy you? We can look at this example and see that even in the midst of this, he is faithful. And this gives us pause, then to actually bring us into our own courtroom, so to speak, to test ourselves to see whether or not we're in the faith.

Tony Arsenal 38:26
Yeah, yeah. And you know, just one more parallel I want to pull up here before we move on to other parts of this passage is, you know, sometimes people look at the scriptures and they look at the law and the prophets and they see them as kind of like disjointed things that are not connected to each other, whether they do that explicitly, which is kind of the the critical theory, the critical liberal response theory, or whether they do it implicitly by just kind of disconnecting these things, but I want to point something out here, right. So right talk about the the suzerain treaty. We talked about how this is the covenant lawsuit. Well, if you look at the opening to the 10 commandments, which is the basically is the establishing of the covenant, here's how it starts. I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. Well, the opening to this covenant, ratification, this covenant lawsuit is identical. I brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, so he's reestablishing and reasserting. I have the right and authority to demand of you the terms of the covenant that we made together on Sinai, which you then re ratified again in Deuteronomy, right? He's, he's coming forward, Yahweh is coming forward through the prophet and saying, enough is enough. Now I'm prosecuting, and you have no excuse, here's my claim. Here's my rightful claim to lordship over you. And and now we're going to talk about what it is that you have done and what it is that you are obligated so you know, verse chapter six and Seven here. This really is the final judgment, Oracle of mica, this last two chapters is where he really just blast the people. Right? We've already been through the beginning of the book here where they, you know, the covenant is broad, and he identifies this spiritual sickness that starts with the leaders, the elites, the rulers of Jerusalem, the spiritual class of Jerusalem, and then to the people's unfaithfulness. And now he's broadening that to say, yes, there are these individual components within Israel that are not righteous and are deserving of judgment. But now he's expanding and say that all culminates in that the people as a whole, right, he preserves his remnant, not because of anything in them, though, but because of grace. But the people as a whole have violated the covenant and they are they are worthy of the judgment and the destruction that God is about to bring.

Jesse Schwamb 40:53
Right. And there's like a public element to this like almost an embarrassingly public element isn't there because yeah, Micah is really expressing that God has a legitimate quarrel with his people. In other words, he has like really good grounds for action against them. And we should sense the weight of that, as if I was reading this to say, Oh, yes, this is all true. I see where there, there's fallenness here. And again, that should hopefully turn us inward as reflect our own lives, but their fences are public. And therefore these articles of impeachment, if we can call them that are going to be public against them. So sin begets a controversy between God and man. That is always how Satan works from the beginning. And the righteous God has an action against every sinner. In other words, he holds a mortgage against every disobedience and judgment against every trespass. And so God is going to plead with those whom he has controversy that they might be convicted and that he might be justified. So in the previous chapter, which we talked about last week, God pleaded with the pagan or the heathen people in anger and fury to bring them to ruin. But here he pleads with Israel in compassion and tenderness, right bring them to repentance. It comes with The same idea of it's like the same focus, and yet because of the purifying sanctifying and saving power of God, through the ability to make children for his own, that there is a difference in the outcome but not the starting point.

Tony Arsenal 42:15
Yeah, yeah. And you know, this also just reminds me like this passage, this text here, even though it wasn't to us, it is for us. Yes, exactly. just continuing on from where you read in First Corinthians 10, six here. Now these things took place as an example for us. He's talking about specifically the the spiritual rock and the drinking water from the rocks, but really the entire history of Israel. These things took place as an example for us that we might not desire evil as they did, do not be idolaters as some of them were, as it is written, the people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. Right. So Paul is latching on to the history of Israel. He's latching on to the fact that God redeemed these people. He rested These people out of Egypt, he bore with them in long suffering for, you know, 1000 years almost. And then he brings this covenant lawsuit and he says those things, their disobedience, God's judgment. So these covenant lawsuits, that the trials and tribulations that the remnant have to face all of those things happened as an example for us. They're all there for our benefit. So so we have to look at this text. And sometimes I think we do we look back at God's faithfulness. And the right response is to say, God, you've been so good to me, how can I be more obedient? How can I be more faithful? How can I How can I get more in the word How can I be a better vehicle for you to bring grace into the world? But if we're being really honest, I think there are times and I know I'm guilty of this, that I actually look at where God has brought me and I get kind of frustrated because maybe I feel like God hasn't brought me to where I thought he wanted to or, or I think about the fact you know, this is a real personal thing. Like I think about the fact sometimes that I have a seminary degree, but I don't really have a lot of job prospects, besides what I can kind of conjure up with my own personality and experience, right? That usually leaves me in kind of like management type jobs, which is fine. I enjoy being a manager, I enjoy those kinds of administrative tasks and I can I can do them. But I don't have a lot of practical skills outside of that if this were to fall through. So sometimes I look at that I'm like, God, why would you bring me through seminary? Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you equip me with something that's more useful and more practical. And what I'm really doing is I'm I'm being queried with God. And if we're not careful, then we're going to be sitting there. We're going to be facing a time where God is going to say to us, however we read you what, why, why are you distant from me? Why What do you have against me when I've done nothing but bless you and done nothing but be gracious to you supremely in Christ, but just even in all the Material blessings that you have. Why are you weary of me?

Jesse Schwamb 45:03
Right? We're kind of teasing. At least I am. I think you're more reserved in this. I'm kind of teasing, like verse eight of this chapter, because that's the, that's the verse that everybody knows. So we've actually kind of purposely exclude it from this episode, because we're gonna come to it next week, I think, and we're come to it with all the full force of the magnitude and really talk about that in particular, as well as like how to translate verses like that understand them in proper context, because that way, Micah six, eight is so famously quoted, so but leading up to that with what you just said in verses six and seven, which is the end of the perk up here is we've decided, there is like you're saying, There's, there's this kind of I'm reading this as an embedded or implied expression of desire to be at peace, right God on any terms, and it's almost as if, in some respects, Israel has been made to understand the magnitude and the essence of God's judgment, and they're inquisitive as to what they might do to be reconciled to God and to make him their friend. And so there's this rhetorical question sacrifices, starts with calves, then goes to thousands of rams, then rivers of oil, then just throwing your firstborn out there. And so Mike emphasizes, I think, this absurdity, like this absolute insanity of Israel's dependence on empty ritual and sacrifice, to earn divine grace, because Israel salvation was free and not earned. And that goes back to what we just read. Right, Paul. And so Israel's covenant obligations entailed social justice and mercy, but not mere liturgy. And so I read this and I think, man, Israel bids high, but not right. Yeah. And I think that that's something actually that we continue to struggle with. In our contemporary context. That idea.

Tony Arsenal 46:40
Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's kind of it's hard to even talk about this without jumping to the next verse. It says, It is so like, integrated and you know, you and I sat through just, I think, was just a wonderful sermon on this passage that I've tried to track down and they didn't record it, but we listened to this amazing sermon. Oh, I liked it. On Micah six, eight,

Jesse Schwamb 47:01
that's right,

Tony Arsenal 47:02
that that really took into account what was going on in the verses before that. But it is true that so often, people take verses like Micah six, eight, Jeremiah 2911, or, you know, all these classic texts, prophetic texts that really don't mean what we think they mean, or at least don't mean what we think they mean in the way that we think they mean them without understanding the context. So you're right, like, basically, Israel is standing before God, they've been indicted. And they throw their hands up and say, and it says, they say, You're right. We have not fulfilled the covenant. What would you like us to do in order to bring that to make this right? And the answer you know, the answer in, in reality is very simple. It's what God laid out in the original context and terms of the country. But but at this point in redemptive history, and that this is the hard part, I think, for evangelicals to understand and to really get our heads around, it's too late for the majority of Israel at this point, right? When you get to the courtroom and the indictment is red, it's usually too late for you to be able to do anything about it. The right answer, of course, is not to break the law in the first place. But after you break the law, there's nothing you can do to stop the trial. Right. Sometimes there's a plea bargain, sometimes there's some sort of some sort of clemency that's offered. But if the court does not offer that to you, if the prosecutor does not offer a plea bargain, you can't just suddenly be like, well, I'll do a bunch of I'll do a bunch of community service. If you don't bring this to trial, you're already at trial. And that that I think, is hard for us to understand and to internalize because, you know, you and I stand here on the other side of the cross. We stand here on the other side of what it is that God has done to be able to show us mercy. What it is that God has done in the person of Jesus Christ dying on the cross being raised from the dead, that our justification is secure in his justification. We we don't we don't have a framework to understand what it would be like to be facing the condemnation of God without a media. Right? We all you know, the the future future justification I can just hear steam coming out of Scott Clark's ears when I say that, but the future justification of God's people is not some future event that has yet to happen. It is the justification, the eschatological justification which is pulled forward in time and applied to Christ, and then is dragged backwards to us from not forward in time. You know what I mean? It's dragged into the past, from the future and applied to Christ. And then brought back into the present where we are now. And don't lie to us. So that way when we reach the eschaton we don't even have to go through the courtroom anymore. I mean, there there is language in the scripture and the Westminster Confession affirms this or the Westminster catechism is affirm this, that there is this future vindication, which you could use the word justification. I think that that's risky and dangerous to speak that way. But there's this future public vindication of God's people that God's people will be openly acknowledged and acquitted is the language that the Westminster shorter catechism uses? That's true. But we don't have a sense in an experiential way of understanding what it means to stand condemned in God's courtroom because we never will stand condemned in God's courtroom and we never have and that's the blessing of salvation and assurance. So it's even hard sometimes to think about and to talk about this part of the passage without the next one. Because we don't have that context for it.

Jesse Schwamb 51:03
Right? I totally agree with that. It's it's hard to really divorce one from the other. We're, we're doing the best we can because we want to. And that's like, honestly, as we discussed, that's worth its own conversation just by itself. But it does remove the fact that Israel here is deciding, yeah, something's going horribly wrong. And they're going to offer or at least in these words, they're offering that which is very expensive, this idea of like thousands of rams. And if you go back to the Old Testament, God required one ram for sin offering, but they're saying, Let's offer flocks of rams, they're all stock, they're essentially willing to make themselves beggars and poor so they can be at peace with God. And I think it even seemed reasonable that they would offer their children because that would somehow make it an expedient means of making satisfaction since our children are pieces of ourselves. And perhaps that's why even the pagans sacrifice their children to appease their offended deities. But again, and this is that phrase coming back, it's an adventure missing the point was no Gifts under heaven that can make satisfaction for sin, or recommend the Israelites to God. And so some of these things were instituted by the ceremonial law as like the bringing a burnt offerings to God's altar and the calves a year old Rams for sin offerings, and, you know, all these different behaviors, which God initiated to bring about some kind of temporary restitution, but these things alone would not ingratiate themselves to God. And so at the risk of like going a little bit long, I think what we're talking about here is we're talking about standards, how we set standards, how we set behavioral standards, stands for holiness and purity. And I want to throw I'm going to sneak in real quick. Nobody saw this coming except for you. A question that we received and we often receive questions in various forms. We prefer to receive them by voicemail. Do you know that voicemail number off the top of your head by the way, now would be a good time to just drop it

Tony Arsenal 52:53
607-444-2767

Jesse Schwamb 52:58
I can test you There, but you always know it. I never know it. And you always know it. But we just recently received this email. And the reason why I'm sneaking it in is because I think there is a tangent with the standards that we're talking about. It's not the same thing Exactly. But there is a tangent that I think applies as we've been talking about it in the contemporary sense. And in addition to that, there's somewhat of a sensitivity with time on this because it's a response to our most recent question cast episode. And even beyond that, we sometimes get questions that I would consider of a very personal and sensitive nature. And this would be one of them. And so I'm not going to disclose the brother or sister who sent this to us because I think once I give you a little bit of the details around it, everybody will understand why but this is a question I received the email I just want to read a part of it. And I think hopefully it'll it'll make sense as to why I'm bringing this up now. So this listeners brother a sister rights, I'm probably unique listener because I'm currently a member of a quote unquote, plain, restrictive Mennonite Church. My question relates to one on the recent question cast about people receiving special revelation from the Holy Spirit. similar lines of thinking are used to bind the consciousness of our people in our circles. Or they will say that they're providing detailed to the commands in Scripture when they require us to drive black cars, women to wear Perry dresses, etc, is assumed that the church is able to acquire under the threat of excommunication. All kinds of things the Bible does not. What is your advice to someone like me in this circumstance, keep in mind that my whole family is in these groups. And it's all I've ever known. It would royal my family, but my wife and I are hunger for true grace filled Christian Fellowship. I love this question, because for two things real quick. One is that reminds me in particular, that good theology is not the sole domain of Reformed theology, theological tradition, and what I mean by that those who are looking and seeking for the truth of the Scriptures are coming in from all different experiences, all different walks of life, all different denominations. And then the second reason I love this question is because it's just candidly and brutally honest, it's true. I think what's trying Get at is, what is it to say that we're required to do certain things, what things are required of us? And it's the same thing. I think in many ways the Israelites are contending with here. It's the sense that should we just need to do certain things as holiness consist in the performance under obedience, and let's say even heartfelt obedience of certain activities, and that this in some way, makes us quote unquote, good Christians. What do you think?

Tony Arsenal 55:27
Yeah, so, you know, this is a hard question. On one level, if we abstract it away from the inner personal implications that this could have for this listener, it's actually very simple, right? When when someone imposes a legalistic standard on you, if you if you go back and listen, we did an episode on Christian liberty. And the Westminster Confession actually basically says, We are not free to be bound by the legalistic requirements and demands of another person. That Isn't that does not fall within our Christian liberty. So if someone demands you do something. And in the in the era of the Westminster standards, you know, they're thinking about like Anglicanism demands to wear a certain kind of clothes if you're going to be a preacher or to use a certain prayer book, but it extends further than that, that somebody is demanding that you do something and claiming that it's from the Bible, you actually are not free to submit to their unlawful demand. And so if we abstract this away from the inner personal implications here, that would mean that you need to push against this you need to push against the fact that they're demanding you drive a particular color car, even if they claim they have some sort of scriptural evidence or scriptural statement for it. You know, another another argument or another way that might apply that is probably a little more common in in reformed circles is the question of alcohol. If somebody says to you it is. It is unbiblical to drink alcohol ever in any form, you don't actually have the right to submit yourself to that legal legalistic requirement. That doesn't mean you have to drink alcohol. But if you choose not to drink alcohol, you have to do so out of your own Christian liberty, not out of trying to obey somebody else's legalistic command. Right. So in this case, it's sort of straightforward. But there is an element of inner personal conflict and the piece of the church that has to be taken into account and this is where it gets really dicey is you still have to recognize that it is not a good and godly and holy thing to needlessly cause strife in the body of Christ exact right. So as as our listener tries to navigate these things. Maybe the next time he goes car shopping or something like that. It's important to be cautious and wise and prove And as you do this, honestly, I think that there, there's a collision course going on here, and something is going to have to give at some point. And most likely this person is going to end up finding that they have to abstract themselves or extract themselves from some of these circles. But of course, that's a decision to make with lots of prayer, lots and lots of lots of conversation with your wife, all of those kinds of things. But it is a difficult situation.

Jesse Schwamb 58:26
I'm only vaguely familiar with these kinds of traditions. But I do have some friends who are dear brothers and sisters that belong to them. And let me say two things with respect to the exact dimensions of the question. The first is that, from my experience, what I've understand is that most of these let's call them parameters are well intentioned and make to be God honoring and God fearing and and not to supplant or supersede the scriptures. And what I mean by that is, I would interpret them from the outside looking in something like that. This, let's say that God for whatever reason, may give a command to his children to humanity that said, Don't sit in red chairs, for whatever reason that was his command. And I think there's a lot of traditions that would form up around that and say, Okay, listen, we we want to undergo what we love him desperately, and we do not want to disobey Him, we do not want to sit in red chairs. And so you know what, the best way not to sit in a red chair is, is let's just make a rule that says, Don't look at Red chairs. So we start with, don't even look at them, because that might create temptation, they might look super comfortable, and then you might want to sit in them, you know, it'd be even better. Don't go into a room with any kind of red chairs. Now, in so much as like, you can see how that kind of line of thinking is helpful because it's working on protection. It's honoring God by saying and following along with his command to not hurt yourself by sitting in the red chair. It's when that takes a priority over scripture, I think is what you're saying that we have right an issue there because Christ has come to set us free from this kind of thing. It should be a matter of the heart, such that we no longer need these rules? Except if we need to employ them on our own to protect ourselves? Yeah, but we shouldn't have somebody over supporting that. So that would be the first thing. The second thing I would say is that the unity of the church is important thing. And that this is a hard thing, I think in this particular situation, because you want to honor the group that you're with. And it's very possible that some are not using these parameters as a way to kind of bring some kind of lordship and rules over others. And maybe some are, it's really difficult to parse that out. But I think, Tony, that you're probably right, in that. If you're thinking in these lines, which I think is tremendously helpful. And it's taking part is where to test everything, then it's possible at some point, there is going to be at least some modicum of conflict as you try to sort this out. Right, because it sounds like they're in some ways, a decision has already been made to really see the students and to search it out. And so I think that the reason why this came to my mind with this question with the passage that we're looking at is because there could be a tendency to make these kind of rules or parameter, the very thing that Israel was trying to do here by saying, if we make these the kind of things that we by doing them, we think we're honoring God better, we're embracing ourselves or recommending ourselves toward him. We're paying off the mortgage in some ways, then that would be the problem. But if that's not the case, I think they're the rest of the continuum. There's a lot more room to run with respect to having conversation and living that community and not being in conflict with it. Does that make sense?

Tony Arsenal 1:01:34
It does. And, you know, this is a situation that is so personal, and there I'm sure there are all sorts of other factors that are going to play into how this rolls out long term. So you and I were a couple of guys on the internet. Take what we say with a grain of salt and that's what it was worth. But this is a real world situation and you know that maybe this is a last thought is I don't throw the term ferrocene out casually. Sometimes on the internet, on Facebook that can be kind of like, sort of like the trump card like all you're just piracy. But this is actually precisely what the Pharisees were guilty of was. It wasn't that they were trying to enforce the law, right obedience to God's law and demanding obedience to God's laws, not legalism. Right. legalism comes in when you believe that's going to save you, or when you start to multiply and add laws to it, usually with nothing but the best his intentions, right. From what we know about the Pharisees. They thought that the reason that God had not returned, the reason they were still in exile in their own land under foreign oppression, was because the people were not following the law. And you know what, they were actually right about that. But they thought that your answer to that question was to build all of the Other rules and regulations around the law said you couldn't even get close enough to the law to break it. And that in a sense is what's going on here is that the leadership in this group is saying, God's laws need a little bit of help, either because they're not clear enough, or because if you get too close, you can't help but break them. Whatever it is, God's law needs a little bit of help. So we're going to, we're either going to give some clarification or some additional rules that will help you to obey God's law. And the reality is that the only thing that will help you to obey God's law is God Himself, is the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling within you, and testifying to your already present justification and already present sanctification and then operating through you to obey the law, according to its precepts, the extra regulations that we put up around the law, you're right if I want to say personally, that I am going to drive a black car because a red car too flashy and I will have this tendency towards pride. If I drive a red car, if I want to make that decision for myself because I know myself, that's okay. As a Christian, I have the freedom to do that I have the freedom to say, it's not safe for me to drive a red car. So I'm going to drive a black car or just to throw this out there. I'm sure we're going to get hate mail. If you want to impose the pentagram rule upon yourself for whatever reason you want. That may be very wise and prudent, even for most people. But that does not mean that is okay for us to impose it as a law on other people. Likewise, it's not okay for us to tell people that it's not okay for them to impose that on themselves. Right? It's okay for us to be personally legalistic about our own righteousness and holiness to be cautious and careful. It's not okay for us to tell someone else that they're not allowed to do that.

Jesse Schwamb 1:04:55
I totally agree. Well, let me give at least if it's okay with you, Paul. The final word on this particular question. And this is from Romans chapter 14, verses 13 through 19. I think I might recommend to this particular listener a wonderful place to do a little bit of reflection and see what the Scriptures say about this type of thing. And I wish we had more time to talk about it, but time escapes us. And I think this passage is a fine starting point and a foil for additional conversation and meditation is what Paul says. Therefore, let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. I know. And I'm persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is green, but what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Wherever that serves, Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual up building.

Tony Arsenal 1:06:06
Yeah, that's a good word.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:11
That's all gotten nothing either.

Tony Arsenal 1:06:15
Well, Jesse, this has been a good episode. You know, we are, like I said last time, we're coming down to the end of mica, we're coming up on needing to pick a new series. So let us know if this has been helpful for us to work our way through a text like this. Or if you've hated it, and for some reason, even though you've hated it for like 15 weeks, you are still listening. Thank you for your loyalty. But let us know that so we can do something you don't hate. We would love to get some listener feedback. The best way to do that is to join our new Facebook group and to interact with us there you know, this Facebook group, I tell I told you Jesse man, it's it's developing its own kind of like ethos and atmosphere and culture.

Jesse Schwamb 1:06:56
It's got that icy flavor.

Tony Arsenal 1:06:58
That's the beauty of it. Like every Facebook group is a little different. And it's fun to watch how it's developing. I'm super stoked about it. So join, go to Facebook, look up, perform brotherhood. There's a page that you should like. And there's a group that you should join, and then just jump in, jump in and enjoy it.

Jesse Schwamb 1:07:16
I'm actually surprised that you let me get away with saying it has a spicy flavor.

Tony Arsenal 1:07:20
Oh, it does have a spicy fav flavor. Absolutely does.

Jesse Schwamb 1:07:26
So many things, but that you're right, I think we had maybe just one listener post something about the micro series, but that I read that and that feedback is super helpful. So like, that's a great place to interact. And really, yeah, this is about like a mutual conversation. So we want to talk about things that are meaningful. And again, for the brother who provided that question to us. I want to thank him because I think that he's not the only one. If I'm honest, I've had those very same thoughts about churches I've attended in the past, or by situations I'm in and it's just I think it's a great kindness. To open yourself up to providing those kind of questions, because for what little podium that you and I have this silly little podcast on the silly little interwebs I think there are people that God or bring into the conversation, who needs to hear the kind of things that are being said and the kind of questions that are being asked, If only to know that they're not alone, and that we're processing this together. And that when we try to systematize our theology as we do on the reform brotherhood, we're not just taking some kind of classification rubric that we've created and trying to cram the scriptures into it. But we believe this is the best and most pronounced and most accurate representation of the entire Counsel of God's will, and the scriptures, and that therefore we're trying our best to live our life under that knowledge and in obedience to Him. So I love that we're doing this together. There is a real togetherness with this and what a beautiful time to be alive. And we can do that in such a way where we can be connected with people all over the world, like we're doing it together, all over the world, we know of each other and so How Facebook is in the middle of that. And now I'm on Facebook. So

Tony Arsenal 1:09:04
yes you are and it's glorious.

Jesse Schwamb 1:09:05
Oh, so spicy.

Tony Arsenal 1:09:08
Well, Jesse, this is the definitive not talking about Micah six, eight cast on the internet.

Jesse Schwamb 1:09:18
It is and I just realized after I took a breath that I basically just went on like a five minute Facebook rant, so I apologize to put that under my list of things I never thought I would be doing in the affirmative.

Tony Arsenal 1:09:29
There you go. Well, until next time, Jesse. Honor everyone.

Jesse Schwamb 1:09:33
Love the Brotherhood.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai