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Tony and Jesse discuss Micah 6:8, hermeneutics, and the proper way to use OT texts.

Jesse Schwamb 0:10
Welcome to Episode 171 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony and this is the podcast of brotherly love.

Hey, brother.

Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey, brother, what's going on?

Tony Arsenal 0:33
Not much, man. You know, I was wondering before we get into some affirmations and denials I have this thought. And during our pre game interview or pre game conference, which was like a second long, you can find it to me that you've had the same thought. You know, we're on a episode hundred and 71 and you and I have joked a little bit about how like, Episode 179 is the gold standard for reform podcast, longevity Because that is how many episodes the reform podcast went before they stopped making podcasts. Well, and for you were coming for us. But I was wondering though, if you look at all of the shows that have kind of like descended from or been inspired by the reformed podcast, right, so like excluding like Christ, the center, which has been going on for 10 years, or like renewing your mind or white horse in like those shows that are kind of like, I don't know, like generation one or like one point O, podcasting, all of the shows that have kind of descended out of the reform podcast, I can't think of another show that has been going on for longer than we have that has 100 more than 179 episodes, or that has been consistent every single week. Do you know of any?

Jesse Schwamb 1:52
I don't. And I'm thinking about this not necessarily in light of what we're trying to kind of show our pervasiveness with how Kisses we've been in podcasting, but more just as a matter of, well, who are the peers that have been maybe started at the same time we did. Yeah, have also continued for this long. I also could not think of a list. I mean, there's the staples that we know exist. But we started kind of as a new generation, so to speak, right. And so I was trying to find our peer group and I couldn't really find anybody at least that came to mind. That was in the same episode range.

Tony Arsenal 2:23
Yeah, I can't think of any reform brother listeners, if you can think of an episode I'm sure if somebody is going to write in and name like 70 episodes, or 70 podcasts that have been going longer than us. But if you can think of kind of the, I hate to use this terminology, because it's not really accurate of a lot of shows, but sort of like the reformed pub cast clones or like the reform podcast, derivatives, you know, like the two guys chatting about theology kind of shows rather than like, the more old school like radio formats like white horse in or like the radio preaching ministries like renewing your mind or truth for life, if you didn't think of a show that's been going for 171 or hundred and 79 episodes, maybe like popcorn theology, but I don't actually know if they're still making episodes. I suppose I could probably just like look it up in like my phones right there, but I don't know. It's an interesting thought.

Jesse Schwamb 3:21
I appreciate you being focused, you know, on that phone to the side.

Tony Arsenal 3:24
Yeah, I did. I did notice last week again, that you were texting with my wife while we were recording and I

Jesse Schwamb 3:34
thought that when I was actually sending the response, I thought, Tony is gonna pick up on this and call me out.

Tony Arsenal 3:44
Yeah, yeah, it's okay.

Jesse Schwamb 3:47
You know, we do multitask culture.

Tony Arsenal 3:49
As long as you don't text and drive. I suppose you can text and podcast that

Jesse Schwamb 3:53
is true. Yeah, it's true. I totally agree with that was whining of agreeing among things. Let's get into some affirmation. denialists How about you kick us off with a little affirmation action?

Tony Arsenal 4:02
Yeah. So you know how you're always bringing like affirmations about music, and I'm usually bringing affirmations about some cool new tech thing. I'm not going to do either of those. But I am going to affirm a show a Netflix show called Lost in Space. Have you seen the show?

Jesse Schwamb 4:20
Wait, like which, which we're talking about the old language new

Tony Arsenal 4:22
version?

Jesse Schwamb 4:23
No, I haven't seen it.

Tony Arsenal 4:25
So a little while ago, you and I lamented the fact that like you can't really find like, it's hard because you you find like a cool new concept for Netflix or Amazon Prime show and then you watch like, an episode and it gets all like, sexualized and like you have to stop watching. Lost in Space. The new version is just good. Relatively wholesome. Space Science Fiction fun. Like, okay, there's there's very little language issues, the language, you know, they cuss a little bit but it's relatively mild. There's No, there has been no sex and no nudity whatsoever. Even the violence in the show is is relatively tame. I don't know that it's designed like it's not really marketed to kids. But it's just a fun show. And they take kind of the it's really more of like, an homage to the old show, if you ever watched the original Lawson space, but it's the same families, the Robinson family, but it's like a whole different conception of what the lawston space franchises so Ashley and I it's it's in season two, it's on Netflix, you can binge the whole thing if you want it's really a good show. It's really quite enjoyable.

Jesse Schwamb 5:36
Have you seen this some of the original episodes

Tony Arsenal 5:38
I have and I mean, obviously for the time they were good, but like they're terrible, but it's a very different it's a very different concept like the original show was like this family gets lost in space and then like they hop from planet to planet and each week is kind of like its own self contained. zany, like antics filled episode. This one really is like a grand a grand story arc, like the kind of thing you'd expect from a Netflix series where it's, it's building characters. It's universe building. It's sequential, you know, goes from, from episode to episode and builds a story. And it's, it's not just the one family that's lost in space. It's like this whole colony mission of like, thousands of humans, I get lost, and they they separate and come back together. It's just really, really good. I mean, I really enjoy that show.

Jesse Schwamb 6:27
Is there super sweet robot?

Tony Arsenal 6:28
There is he's a really, really cool robot. He's not the corny made out of cardboard robot. But he's also not like, most of most of the effects are practical effects. So it's not even really, it's not even really mostly a CGI robot. And he's, he's very interesting. It's a very interesting way that they've integrated the robot into the story. I think in the original wasn't it like a robot that they built?

Unknown Speaker 6:54
I think so.

Tony Arsenal 6:54
Yeah. And this one, it's not it's like an alien robot. There's a whole like backstory. Like the primary conflict in the show actually involves this robot and kind of where he comes from. It's really, really, really a good show.

Jesse Schwamb 7:09
I've seen a couple episodes the original but the only thing I really remember is the robot saying danger will Robinson. I don't even know if that robot has a name, but I'm pretty sure you're right that they constructed it for the purposes of the travel.

Tony Arsenal 7:19
Yeah, the mission. Yeah. Yeah. So check it out. It's on netflix. lawston space. Like I said, it's so hard to find a good Netflix series that isn't filled with just smut and trash. So when you find one, it's like, tell all your friends the Mandalorian was kind of like that a Disney plus that was a really good sci fi thing. There was no, I mean, it was a little bit violent, but, but this is just a good wholesome show. Like you could, it's a little intense at times, but you could like sit and watch it with your kids. I mean, I have kids but like if you had young children that were okay with a little bit of like intensity. It's not gonna like give them nightmares or like expose them to really bad stuff you don't want them seeing

Jesse Schwamb 8:00
Totally agree with you at the risk of breaking this completely wide open so that we result in a conversation that last approximately seven hours. I just want to say that I agree with the Mandalorian reference and while again for all the purists out there what I'm about to say I know is somewhat offensive. Oh, love the baby Yoda. No, not Yoda. Yeah, I love

Tony Arsenal 8:22
No, it's totally fine to call him baby Yoda.

Jesse Schwamb 8:25
Okay, I mean, I use Yoda as representative of that species. Yes. Oh, nerdy. No, it's representative of that species. But super adorable. They did such a good job with that.

Tony Arsenal 8:34
Yeah, I mean, yeah, this could be like its whole. I'm there have been entire podcast just on this show. Yeah, I mean, Yoda, Yoda species is so interesting. And in all of Star Wars canon, because nowhere anywhere Have they ever given his species a name. And there's only like one other instance of his species and his name was Seattle. So like, we have to assume that like that Why name That that format is like somehow representative of the species. But yeah, officially this little babies day. It's just called the child. That's what he's called. But yeah baby Yoda is much more descriptive.

Jesse Schwamb 9:11
So adorable like they did such a good job designing him or her to be not creepy but yeah, super like when some integration and just downright cute Yeah, he's

Tony Arsenal 9:22
adorable. I'm assuming I'm gonna assume his gender.

Jesse Schwamb 9:27
Oh you're going you're going to boy?

Tony Arsenal 9:29
Oh yeah for sure. Okay, there's never been a known female of the species. I mean you have to assume there are females of the species but I don't think there's ever been one in Star Wars canon

Jesse Schwamb 9:40
Was it okay I, I got all kinds of questions but we should probably move

Tony Arsenal 9:44
on we should move on to the theology part of the show. What are you affirming.

Jesse Schwamb 9:48
I'm also going to go off the rails just a tiny bit and I'm affirming with some food this week. And I'm like a snack person like I could run a train. On chips like for me No serving size of chips that isn't single serving. Yeah, for sure. For me, I just love chips. And I tried to limit the amount of carbs I eat because I know like eating a ton of carbs is not particularly great for you. But what I'm affirming with specifically is popcorn. And here's something I came across we I would say within like the last year that I think is worth sharing. So first off, I used to love to eat microwave popcorn, but in reality that stuff is like not really particularly good for you of course because all these chemicals in the bag and even the flavoring itself is completely artificial. So the first part of the affirmation is I totally from air poppers. This is the way to make popcorn because if you're lazy like me it's one super easy and two it's super clean all you're getting is just popped kernel so it's really good for you but here's the moneymaker right here. And that is here's what I've discovered that makes all the difference is who doesn't want a little butter in the popcorn. Like I can't just be playing popcorn like I'm, I'm a human being God has made me I want the best And so what I've discovered though, is if you melt, you make your air pop popcorn, which is delicious. It's a pure blank canvas ready for the flavoring that you want to provide to it. If you melt real butter, not margarine, but if you melt the real butter and you put it on the popcorn, what happens like initially right away immediately is it actually starts to make the popcorn messy or to use terms that would be I would say comfortable for you. It compromises the structural integrity of the pop kernel. In fact, here's the experiment you can try if you melt real butter, and then you spoon that out ever so gently on your popcorn, and you put your ear to the bowl, you're going to hear it it's gonna sound like you're adding milk to Rice Krispies, you're gonna actually hear it start to degrade and it makes the popcorn it really soggy right away. Here's the best thing instead of using the actual butter because what you're craving is like a fatty component. use coconut oil because the coconut oil when you drizzle it over You're not going to get that sound, it actually that it has a higher fat content. And so it actually stays on the surface of the popcorn spread throughout. And then you throw a little sea salt, not table salt on top of that. And you're going to be like, this is the most delicious popcorn I've ever seen. And not only is it really delicious, it's super good for you. Because of course, these are all these polyphenols and everything else in the coconut oil that we normally don't get. So I'm affirming, it'll probably popcorn, throw some coconut oil on there with a little sea salt. It's delicious. It's savory, it's rich, that's what you're craving. And I would say that nine times out of 10 nine people out of 10 people won't even notice that it's not the butter because what you're craving is that fat content. If you want to get super funky and take it to the next level. You can use avocado oil, that's like the advanced version of this whole thing, but I'm just affirming popcorn air pop popcorn with a little bit of sea salt and coconut oil. It is amazingly delicious snack. It's one that you can kind of like take and relish in and you're not actually Doing a large amount of harm to your body.

Tony Arsenal 13:03
Jesse, you know, it's funny that we started this episode talking about how many episodes we've recorded. Because I don't think you realize this, but you have done this exact affirmation before. Like 100%. Exactly. Even some of the like, like the joke lines, like the way that you let into it. You ever use this affirmation? So the reason I'm saying even that I'm having like the most crazy deja vu but the reason I know this is because when I posted this episode of the reform pub, and someone listened to it, what they told me is, the reason your popcorn is shriveling up when you use real butter is not because of the fact that it's butter. It's because it's too hot. So the reason that coconut oil doesn't do that is because it melts at a lower temperature. And so the liquids the liquid Coconut oil is not as hot as the liquid butter is and That's why the structural integrity of your popcorn is not violated. But yeah, this is this is a this is unreal to me. It's it's hilarious. I love it. I needed an episode this is now I could seriously like cut the audio out of that episode and just drop it into this episode. It would be the same thing.

Jesse Schwamb 14:20
Well, here's the thing. It's so good and repeated like every 50 episodes or so. Yeah, I thought I hadn't mentioned it because I was experimenting again. Well, maybe I'll I'll kick it up a notch and say like, then go with the avocado oil. I do keep it pretty hot. So I feel like there's a different that I do like the fat content. It was just totally different chemically. So it's interesting. Maybe it is about the heat. Yeah, but it's definitely worth doing. So like, here's the thing. There's somebody that heard it the first time I was like, yeah, maybe that sounds interesting, but I'll get around to it. So now I'm coming back at you for all the people in the back that didn't hear me the first time saying Go get yourself an air popper. Don't use the Oil poppers like those I know there's you think Listen, I want to just put stuff in oil because oil is delicious especially when it gets hot and it makes things heats them up. But the air popper is totally legit like, Do you guys have any improper?

Tony Arsenal 15:12
Yeah we do. do use it. Yeah one time we put too many kernels in it and it sounded smelled like it was gonna catch on fire because the Colonel's just sat there because they couldn't move. Yeah Do not feel line is there for a reason or feel do not feel pass here line is there for a reason.

Jesse Schwamb 15:32
Well then, since apparently I've already said this and obviously like I was blinded by my own sheer passion for popcorn. I'm just gonna leave it at that. Please take us into denial. I have

Tony Arsenal 15:43
a new denial eating your affirmation without knowing it. No. My denial is snowplows and there's a very particular reason I'm denying snowplows so one of the amazing blessings that Most people in the United States have even in very rural areas is daily mail service like it's a it's a blessing that we so take for granted. And the reason that I am bringing that up in relation to snowplows is because we had a relatively significant storm events last Thursday, I actually got like stuck in the middle of town and like couldn't get out because we live in kind of this valley. So I had to like camp out at this local diner. But when we came home from work that night, the snowplow had completely just blasted our mailbox all the way out of the ground, just like destroyed some like, there was probably I went out and looked, you know, you can see like the line where the plow actually plows, there was maybe like four inches between the post of the mailbox and where the snowplow had been. But this the actual mailbox hangs out over that by like a foot and a half. So he smashed it and I went and found the mailbox and it was like 20 feet down the road so like it was like he nicked it or bumped it he just like hit it full on the whole thing was mangled. And so now because our local post office closes at five o'clock every night, and I don't get out of work until five o'clock every night, I have to wait and go get all of our mail on Saturday because the snowplow blasted our our snow or blasted our mailbox. Did it break it completely off the post? Or was it just the mailbox itself that gets separated from the post? Yeah, like the way that the mailbox is set up is there's there's a post a vertical post, and then there's a horizontal crossbar. And they nestled together. And then there's like a surfboard. There's a supporting brace and so when he hit when he hit the crossbar, it just knocks the whole crossbar and the supporting brace off. So the post is all jacked up, we're gonna have to replace it in the spring and this is the worst part. It's winter and the ground is frozen. So we can't even like dig out the post and put up a new post in a new mailbox, right because we can't dig out the ground. So we for the rest of the winter, we are stuck with having to go down to the post office so so if you're listening to this the sound of my voice, my first thing is put up some reflectors on your your mailbox so your snow plow doesn't blast it. And seconds, take some time to realize how much of a blessing it is to have daily mail service to your home. Because it really it really is like a crazy inconvenience to like have to find time on a Saturday to drive down to the mail room. Like I mentioned before we get a lot of Amazon packages because we do like Amazon Subscribe and Save. So like I'm walking out of there with like 12 packages each one of them has like one one like box of tea in it so yeah, so I'm denying maybe not all snowplows but like carolis snowplows Sure,

Jesse Schwamb 18:52
yeah. So let me address something that's only superficially related to that denial because I know that there are people out there thinking this very The question they have in their minds right now is, is this Tony's real video that does he actually speak this way? When he just speaks casually? And there's not a recording device in front of him? And I want to say to you all, the answer is a yes. So what you just heard with the verb of nuzzling, that is the mailbox, nestled up against the post. That is actually how you described it to me if we were just having a beer with one another in a totally private place.

Tony Arsenal 19:29
Yeah. I don't understand why that's strange.

Jesse Schwamb 19:32
It's no, I'm not saying it's strange. This is like the same line of like this structural integrity thing. You just have a way of speaking that's, you know, somewhat poetic, I would say, actually, I think we both do this to each other. And people often ask, like, is that the actual way you guys talk to each other? Or is this just the way you kind of fabricate it for the sake of the podcast? No, this is 100%. Real like, this is who we are. This is just bare naked. We're out there. Yeah, this is how we actually talked if it sounds nerdy. That's because we aren't as hard as where we nerd giant nerd.

Tony Arsenal 20:01
Yeah, so what about you? What are you denying? Oh, that's great. Okay, wait, wait before you start, have you done this denial before?

Unknown Speaker 20:10
Wow.

Tony Arsenal 20:12
Love Your brother,

Jesse Schwamb 20:13
maybe maybe even know. So you'll have to tell me. Let me start by asking, do you have any Bluetooth speakers that you use regularly?

Tony Arsenal 20:22
Not really I have bluetooth headphones, but I like a speaker that sits on my desk.

Jesse Schwamb 20:26
Okay, so here's my beef with my denial against Bluetooth speakers. And I'm going to you can file this away as they're like things that are just firstworldproblems I'm totally complaining about. And I understand that. I wanted a nice Bluetooth speaker to us at the office, something that is like subtle and calm and discreet. And as much as I can tell that speaker does not exist. And the reason why is because every Bluetooth speaker wants to make you aware of one when it's ready to pair with your device. Yes, and to when it's paired. Yeah. And it doesn't want to do that subtly. So I'm sitting next to a speaker right now, for instance, it has a nice woman's voice. But when you turn it on, it wants to speak super loudly. So it'd be like ready Japan, like, a million decibels.

Unknown Speaker 21:11
Does it sound like it? Because that sounds

Tony Arsenal 21:16
like yes, you speaker got possessed by the devil for a second.

Jesse Schwamb 21:18
It's just angry, turned it on and asked me to do something. So maybe somebody out there actually has a really good recommendation for a Bluetooth speaker that either one doesn't have like a loud sound or some kind of beeping or some kind of signification that it's ready and has paired. Because when you're in an open office environment, the last thing you want to do is like make it plainly obvious that you're trying to listen to something. Yeah. And so I'm denying against the fact that somebody hasn't created a Bluetooth speaker where you can just there's an option for you to turn that thing off and so far, I haven't found one.

Tony Arsenal 21:53
Yeah, I don't know. I don't I mean, I don't. I don't really like Bluetooth as a like, as like a Like it's like an old adulty No, no, like, I don't have I'm not opposed to like the concept of Bluetooth. I don't like Bluetooth in terms of the actual like, technology it like it doesn't work very well. It's not super reliable.

Jesse Schwamb 22:14
Oh, just like efficient. Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 22:15
like you could have a Bluetooth speaker, one Bluetooth speaker that can go like 20 feet away. And then the same Bluetooth speaker under slightly different conditions needs to be like practically touching the transmitter. So like, as far as signal go, yeah, it needs to be nestled against it. As far as as far as slyke stability and consistency goes. Bluetooth is just not a reliable thing. So I don't know, I maybe I'm old school, but like, I like speakers with wires.

Jesse Schwamb 22:45
What because they don't make a sound like Well, here's the thing in the example you just gave no matter how effective they are. Here's one thing I can guarantee you, they'll both be equally loud. It's true when they let you know that they're ready to pair and that they pair the device. Well

Tony Arsenal 22:57
and that's the challenge though, because since they have this ridiculous law Pairing signal or connection signal with the way that they are if, like the condition changes and add disconnects. It's like, oh, and then like, a second linear be like, able to like, say came back.

Jesse Schwamb 23:15
So that's actually a really good impression. Yeah, a lot of the speakers that I've tried, somebody helped me I'm looking for a Bluetooth speaker that is like, discreet, clandestine, if you will, that's willing to say, Hey, I'm connected, but I don't need to let everybody know that that just happened.

Tony Arsenal 23:31
Yeah, preferably one that doesn't repeat itself unnecessarily.

Jesse Schwamb 23:38
Well, I'm pretty sure this has been the definitive hundred and 71st episode of the reform brotherhood. We've already closed in on so much

Tony Arsenal 23:45
ground. It's so definitive that we had to repeat it.

Jesse Schwamb 23:52
The popcorn thing is legit. Somebody needed to hear that for the second time. I'm pretty sure I love it. Well, so We we are in, in we're actually like almost, I would say we're what maybe like two thirds the way through our whole Micah cast series. Yeah. And the thing that's great about this episode is we basically like teesta ad nauseum. And the last one because we're getting to that most famous of all verses in the book of Micah, the one that's quoted everywhere that's put on on cards all over the world, the one that's quoted as being the quintessential representation of everything Micah says, We're finally at Micah six, eight, and we have a whole episode to devote just to that single verse. Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 24:35
yeah. And you know, when we had first planned out this series we were planning on including this verse, along with the rest of this perfect puppy. You know, perfect puppy is just kind of like, somewhat arbitrary, but like a diff defined chunk of text that seems like a single unit of text. And so verse eight really belongs with verse one through seven, but we got this question through our friends. Facebook Messenger here for the page. And it comes from Jackson Hall who is not only a probably one of my favorite California listeners, but is also a community manager in our Facebook group. So you may not realize this, but we have a couple different people in the group who serve as community managers, not so much as moderators or admins, but they're kind of responsible for like keeping the conversation going. So Jackson has been really great about like posting good questions and keeping things going. And so he asked this question he said, I was listening to your guys heresy cast on Marxian ism. And he got me thinking about how obviously we shouldn't take our proverbial scissors and cut out certain parts of the Bible. I had a two part question but you answered the first one at the end of the podcast, how in Romans three, Paul says we must uphold the law. I've always wondered what he meant by that since Jesus fulfilled it. The specific example I have in mind though, is Jeremiah 2911. Famously, Jeremiah 2911 says, For I know the plan I have for you declares the Lord plans for welfare and not for evil to give you a future and a hope. And Christians apply that verse to themselves all the time. The verse prior says, For thus says the Lord, when 70 years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you and will fulfill you to you my promise and bring you back to this place. My question is, is it Isagenix to apply some promises to us believers and then disregard the surrounding text? And also how do I determine which verses are meant for me? So question, if you if you boil it all down, what Jackson's asking and the reason that we're doing this episode with just this one verses because this is one of those verses, that so often gets pulled out of its context and applied without any consideration about what is actually going on in the passage, what leads up to it, what follows it, what's going on in the book, and what he's asking is, is it okay, or maybe better? Let me rephrase that. How do we appropriately apply a verse like Micah six, eight, in a way that's appropriate, but respects the context. And as we said last week, like we have a tough time even understanding the context of Micah six, because as Christians, you know, we will never stand under God's judgment the way that Israel did, like the covenant promises will never be taken away from us, and they could never be taken away from us. We're in Micah six, eight, the whole point of the passage is that God is prosecuting His covenant lawsuits. And he's he's saying that the covenant sanctions will now be applied, which is the loss of the blessings and the application of the curses. So it got me thinking we should do an episode on this because one of the other things we talked about in this series is that we don't spend a lot of time in the profits because hermeneutic Lee, sometimes it's hard to apply them it's hard to understand, right? What they mean, how do they even apply to us? How does it passage about a foreign army invading Israel and CG Jerusalem? How does that apply to me in 2020, on the other side of the world as a Gentile

Jesse Schwamb 28:01
Right, that's well said, I mean, my perception is that most of the time what happens with passages like this is because there is a prophetic nature to them, where we understand that there be they are being spoken to a particular time in a particular people group. They either end in one of two ways, either we take them merely as some kind of historical artifact, right? Or we tend to allegorize to such an extent that they mean next to nothing in the modern the context in which it was contemporary there be spoken, and we turned them into something that they didn't mean altogether, because we're trying to apply them in a modern context. Yeah.

Tony Arsenal 28:31
Yeah. So let's, let's talk about some other passages that this happens you what comes to mind to you as far as other passages, you know, we talked about the question involved, Jeremiah 2911. What other passages come to mind with this that you could think of?

Jesse Schwamb 28:45
Honestly, that, for me, is like the pinnacle does that it is Jeremiah 2911. And to do like a totally shameless plug. If you're looking for an episode of the podcast that talks about that verse in particular, if you go to the fast gossip podcast, there's an episode So where we talk about all the verses that get misused and that I think is one of the main ones but there's lesson for me nothing comes close to that actually this comes second close I know it's kind of like a cop out answer. But I have such a huge pet peeve with Jeremiah 2911. That it for shadows Yeah, for shadows, it shadows over anything else that would be even closely second to it.

Tony Arsenal 29:21
Yeah. Yeah. For me, the one that comes to my mind and it's one that that most people don't think of in this conversation. But in Lamentations three, verse 22, right, the steadfast mercies of the Lord never cease His mercies never come to an end. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness, right? You see that like cross stitched on pillows people, like put it up on their, you know, their Instagram with a nice like background field with the sunset sunrise. But the whole context of this is the destruction of Jerusalem. So if you even just go back to verse 16, it says, and it's talking about God, he has made my teeth Grind on gravel and made me cower and ashes. My soul is bereft of peace. I've forgotten what happiness is. So I say my endurance is perished. So as my hope from the Lord, remember my afflictions, in my wanderings with a Wormwood in Gaul, my soul continually remembers it, and is bowed down within me. But this I call it to mine, and therefore I have hope, the steadfast love of the Lord, so on and so forth. So, the context of this passage is not some general, God's mercies are new every morning. You know, I know that I had a rough day at work yesterday, and my boss yelled at me for being late, but God's mercies are new every morning. I don't know why I'm putting on that voice. But like, that's the context you usually see it used it but the context of deserves so much, in one sense, like, it's so much darker, but because it's so much darker. The promise that is being expressed by Jeremiah here is that much more profound. He's saying that the way that he reassures himself is he calls to mind this promise The steadfast love of the merge of love the Lord never ceases. And His mercies are new every morning. So it's just like in the Psalms where you have like the limitation Psalms, the lament Psalms, where, you know, it's this dark terrible situation right? All my enemies surround me, I they've pierced my side they, they've done this, they've done that, but I will call upon the Lord or I will trust the Lord, there's this statement of hope in the midst of this darkness. That's really strong.

Jesse Schwamb 31:30
Okay, well then I do have one actually. So I'm coming back from this now. So one that I would say is like similar because you reminded me this, this juxtaposition between the light in the darkness in fact, when you find these amazing promises, usually they're in the context of having to come to bear and to come against all of this traumatic and dark events that are happening in the life of God's people that either he has by His justice cause them to bear up underneath, or because through their own deceitfulness or the disobedience they've come to bear on their own. What I think is really taken out of context in the same light would be from like Matthew 18. Yeah, so this whole, that whole chapter is about discipline in the church. And that is where we find at the end of that chapter, that little verse that likes to get stripped out, which is for where two or three are gathered in my name there, I'm present. And so that is like a unique promise in the darkness of having to really come to bring God's discipline to bear and his own people, which is tremendously painful thing. And so because of that, there is this promise that God is present in the midst of that kind of event. And yet we take that to mean just like, well, even if you can only get a couple people together on your prayer night, God's gonna honor the prayer because he's gonna be there because you got at least three people and that too, I think to your main point, when we look at verses like this, what we're actually doing is we're really cheapening them yeah. distilling them down to what we think is like their essential elements. But in so doing, we're making them like Frankenstein's, we're pulling out what we think God is actually saying, but devoid or divorced or separated from the context. The Actually so much less robust. And I think that's exactly what we have in Micah six, eight.

Tony Arsenal 33:05
Yeah, yeah. In the best case scenario, you've settled for, like the Walmart generic version of the verse, like you've settled for a version of what the promise is, that is so diluted and nothing that it barely offers you anything. In the worst case scenario, you've totally distorted the context of the verse, the meaning of the verse. So in the Matthew 18 example you're bringing up the context of it is not God is going to honor your prayer when you get a couple people together. It's

Unknown Speaker 33:39
exactly

Tony Arsenal 33:40
it's that God is going Jesus Christ is going to preside over the excommunication of a recalcitrant sinner, such that when there are two or three witnesses and that charge is established by the church, that what you have what the church has sealed on Earth as the excommunicate This individual Christ is going to seal in heaven. That's the context of the verse. There. There are other verses that use this two or three language in the context of sort of general prayer. It's the same as like whatever you pray in my name, like those kinds of things are there. But this verse means something very, very different if you neglect to observe the whole context, but in our passage here and Micah six, eight, I don't know that it's it's exactly like that. I don't think you really lose the meaning of the passage. But I do think you lose the the full robust sense of the passage such that it becomes kind of this chintzy little substitute for the real deal.

Jesse Schwamb 34:38
No, I'm glad you said it that way. Because in preparation for this conversation, I was thinking that exact thing. It's not as if there is a lot of offense happens because you just take completely out of context by itself. There is meaning in here, which is rich and helpful. It's not a complete perversion, but it seems like we can still Slide it and I'm hoping that somebody has been tracking with With us, all along the way, that we did recognize that consideration of Micah superval superlative saying, it has to occur in the context of his entire discourse, right, which contains like three major divisions that we talked about. Each of those divisions really begins with this clarion call to hear. That's what Mike is saying on behalf of God. So in Micah One, two, he says, Here, you peoples all of you pay attention, then it might get three when he goes to hear you heads of Jacob and rulers of the house of Israel, is it not for you to know justice? And then it Micah six one before we get to this verse and chapter in verse eight, hear what the Lord says again, Arise, plead your case before the mountains, and that the hears here the hills hear your voice. So to me, what I'm sensing is, the call is at once universal, its national and its particular, it's across all the spectrums, no one is admitted. And when God speaks, he speaks to all without distinction. And then here comes verse eight.

Tony Arsenal 35:56
Yeah, yeah. So why don't we just for context sake, since we're talking about context. I'm going to start reading in verse six, but just for giving the fuller comp con context, verses one through five, are basically God's Final accusation or not his final accusation but our accusation of the covenant lawsuit. And so what it what it does is it's God's establishing this charge. He's establishing the indictment and Micah as his profit is acting as the prosecuting attorney. And then and this has happened before and Michael where all the sudden the speaker shifts. And so Micah then takes on like the percentage of Israel of the people of Israel in verse six. And when he reads it, he says, with what shall I come before the Lord and bow myself before God on high Shall I come before him with burnt offerings with calves and your old? Will the Lord be pleased with the thousands of rams with 10 thousands of rivers of oil Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has and then it switches back to Micah. So it's almost like he and then I'll read the verse it's almost like Micah is reading a statement to the court. It's like he's he's saying Exhibit A, this is Exhibit A in the prosecuting argument is this ridiculous statement by the people of Israel asking what they should do acting as though they don't understand what God expects of them. And then he says, and this is kind of like his rebuttal to that implied argument. He says, he has told you Oh, man, what is good, and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness and to walk humbly before your God? And so where we read this as sort of like a general precepts given to us which is okay, like, it's okay to look at this and say, this is a nice short summary of God's law. Right? You do justice you live in adjust sense according to God's law. You love kindness which is commanded of us in in the law and you walk humbly, which is also commanded us in the law. But when we read it in that way, and we don't look at it as sort of like the final piece of evidence in this, this covenant lawsuit, if we're not careful when we apply it to ourselves, it becomes evidence against us. Because who, who acts? Who does justice? And who loves kindness and who walks humbly with God? Like, I don't on most occasions, you don't like none of us do. So we have to make sure that we're recognizing the law here. And when we recognize the law, then we are driven to see the gospel. Right. So that that's part of what we have to do with this passage.

Jesse Schwamb 38:38
Yeah, that's well said, because I think if we would rightly apprehend the force, the scope of that crucial saying, we have to interpret it in light of the Old Testament, which is really, of course the way in which Mike is speaking it. And for us, it's easy on the other side of the cross, to really focus focus so hard on God's mercy, that we lose the weights like the full burn You know what the law means here? Yeah, even like this idea of justice. So starting because my feeling with this verse is that not only do we have a tendency to interpret it in kind of a slogan, or a bumper sticker kind of right, like, here isn't nice just that finally somebody in the entire scriptures just distill down what we have to do. So in our daily practice, what do you need to do? Here? It is micro tells us Yeah, but I worry that our understanding of justice is more influenced by for instance, in the I would say, like in the Western world by like modern democracy in the court system than it is by what we're understanding. Mike is saying here, because when he's talking about justice, he's really talking about like you just said, that which is in conformity with the truth, and the right according to the holy law of God, right. And that's fundamental because it's notes likeness to God who made us in His own image. So I think like immediately of Deuteronomy 32 four which says, The Rock, his work is perfect, for all His ways are justice. So think about that by itself, like All His ways are justice now all His ways are just we're getting a definition of God by use of the word justice and vice versa so justice is who God is. And who God is is justice. Yeah. He goes on to say a God of faithfulness and without iniquity Justin upright is he so it's interesting that use the adjective just to talk about the actions of God, but who is God He is adjust God. Yeah. So we're speaking more about identity and not just some kind of way of measuring out punishment or retribution is is not just about a court scenario, although ironically, that's the way in which has been presented, like you said that this is evidence against us. But that justice itself is a part of the try you and God and so it's for us to be just is not to just to do certain things or to act in a way in which we might subscribe to the common law of our land. It is to have the character of God who isn't himself justice, which means everything God does. That is just Yeah, not what we think is fair. Which are our legal system or our way of organizing mankind denotes as this is what is profitable or right? everything that God represents and who he is. That is just even if it goes against not only just man made law, but man made conception. Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 41:17
yeah. And you know, if we with this particular passage, and then I want to go to a couple other elements of this question, but with this particular passage, what you need to realize is, this passage is a covenant lawsuit. Right? And so when we extracted out of it, we totally lose that. And last week, we talked about how in verse, verse three, God basically brings up the prologue to the 10 commandments, right, he says, I brought you out of the land of Egypt redeemed me from the house of slavery. This this verse here at the end of this prick A p, it forms and includes you were the beginning of it is a reference to the law. And the back half is a reference to the lights this this choice of language is not a mistake. De, if you go to Deuteronomy 1012, it says, and now Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways to love him to serve the Lord your God, with all your heart with all your soul and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord. So, this, this structure of the passage prevents us from pulling this this passage out and isolating it as its own thing, right? The verses the verse numbers, the chapter numbers, those are all artificial to the text, those have all been imposed. They're not inspired, they don't hold any authority at all, if you want to chop this in half and make it so the first half is chapter six, we read number everything after that. So the second half is chapter seven. It would be probably imprudent to do that because then everyone be confused, but it's not. It's not a sin to do that. It doesn't make any difference. But the actual structure of this text, the fact that it begins with this allusion to the law, and it ends with an allusion to the law. It prevents us from a isolating that out. And to do that is to ignore the divine logic and the divine rhetoric which is embedded in this Oracle. And that's why we have to be careful not to pull stuff out of context.

Jesse Schwamb 43:13
Right? Because it seems like this is the kind of thing where it's just giving us some kind of like instruction, street imperative, but so much more than that. And it can only be more than that when we understand that from where it's being birthed, like, what is driving Mike to come to this like grand conclusion because in many ways, I see this almost as like at the closing argument like he's it's rhetorical in the sense like, here's the argument and then you're probably wondering what does God require of you? Well, he said all those things, and you stole my reference because I was going to take that around to me and and really, really kind of like bring to light again and remind some at least myself that what he's saying is not something new. So I think we stumble sometimes con averse like this and we say, this is so great. Like I wish somebody had said this. Before and in fact, it has been said before, because this is the beauty and I would say, like the graciousness of God, that He can use to draw our minds back to things that he said. And I'm hearing what you're saying. And I'm thinking, Man, there's like immediate christological implications to this. Because since there this is like utterly impossible, apart from the divine grace, and the help of the Holy Spirit, that would be Christian is cast unconditionally upon what Christ accomplished for us on the cross, and by his record resurrection, like, even in this passage, we have embedded this promise that the only one can can really help us to fulfill that which is required is the perfect god man, Christ Himself. And so this really convicts the center of a desperate need. But where there is a conviction there is always with a divine invitation. Yeah, to come to Christ for mercy. And so in this I see so much of the atonement. And again, when we take it as just like, well, this is what is given to us by way of Rule of Life for instruction, we fail Realize that impounded within it is actually all of the Christian message all of the gospel, the good news itself, that the only way we can come to this and bring it about in our lives with fruition and a fullness is if Jesus Christ Himself is evident in such a way that we have been not only regenerated but empowered in filled with the Holy Spirit. Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 45:20
yeah. Yeah, I think that's I mean, that's right on is these passages and this this is why I say we have to learn to see the law and the gospel. Not because every passage is law and gospel, which is what the federal vision advocates would say. And that that the difference between line gospel is actually in the heart of the listener rather than in the text itself. But because the purpose of the law in whether it's in the Old Testament or the New Testament, the purpose of the law, is either to convict and condemn the reprobate, or to drive the elects to Christ like for those who are not yet who are not yet Yet Christians, that is a single purpose that is applied to the reprobate and the elect differently is the law condemns us. Those who are reprobate remain stubbornly under that condemnation. Those who are elect are driven to Christ to seek salvation. But that drives us to the gospel. Right. So where's the gospel in this? Well, the gospel in this is not that somehow you can do it somehow you can make it happen. Somehow this standard is is something you can do. The gospel is all throughout the got the most of the gospel of Micah, which is actually probably not too bad. All throughout the book of Micah, the gospel is that there's a redeemer coming, right. We've talked about that. All right. There's a redeemer coming, who can fulfill this law for you who went accused in the covenant lawsuit of the cross. He is found innocent, but he bears your guilt. And then he's vindicated by God, and granted the resurrection which then He grants care absolutely right that anytime we're looking at a passage like this, the law, it's not just driving us to the gospel, not to pull like an Andy Stanley and separate Jesus from the scripture or Jesus from the Gospel, but it doesn't drive us to the gospel in in some sense that the gospel is something apart from Jesus. The gospel is that we get Christ, we get Jesus. And since we get Jesus, He saves us with his own salvation.

Jesse Schwamb 47:27
Yes, that's, you know, that's so important because I think when we get to the part where we see this to love mercy, and maybe I only speak for myself, because I don't want to presume this and others, but I do not understand what it means to love mercy. There's an intellectual assent with the concept, but this idea of understanding and acting in such a way that I love mercy, it's not just about giving this like bearing underneath the way if an idea that makes me more compassionate or makes me more patient with people, you Know what Mike is talking about here again in the context is, it is a demonstration to at the altar of sacrifice as like the covenant love of God pardoning the sinner and reclaiming him to righteousness, with new quickened life for the soul. That's what he's talking about here. Again, it's not just like, be kind and loving to other people. We can't use that as synonym for mercy in this context, there is none perfect other than Christ Himself. And to love mercy, then, is to reciprocate the saving love of God, and to manifest it in our lives to other act to others by acts of compassion, helpfulness that is like way deeper, and way more broad, and way harder. Because again, I think everything that God is calling us to hear through what Mike is saying is the kind of stuff that says, You should realize when you hear this in your ears, that if you see this in a bumper sticker, you should immediately say, Well, I can't do that. Like there's no part of this. That's easy. There's no part of this I should be able to accomplish. Yeah, and the mercy that we're talking about here is so amazingly complex that We should fall in the knees and say, God, how almost like this way? How dare you commanded me something that I cannot perform on my Oh, yeah. And like you said, that leads us back to Christ Himself.

Tony Arsenal 49:10
Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's, I think that that's right on. So I wanted to address one other element of this question that sometimes comes up and the question, you know, what do we do with these verses where like, people pull out one part of a broader verse and they apply it, sometimes what comes up, especially if you're dealing with kind of generally evangelicals who love the scriptures, but but don't necessarily care all that much about applying the scriptures correctly. And I don't mean that in like a pejorative sense. But it's just not their focus that they're not thinking that way. So I'm thinking specifically about if you were to say to somebody, you know, you can't use that verse in second current or in Second Chronicles, that if if God's people call on his name, they'll forget them. You can't. You can't apply that to the United States because the United States is not a covenant a nation with God. They go, Well, yeah, but you're just being too intellectual. And sometimes what they do is they go to passages in the New Testament that seem on the surface to pull out and do the same thing. Right? So like, the one that comes to mind is in Romans three, verse 10. And following, you know, Paul is going through and verse three, he's talking about the condemnation of sin, all of these things and then he says, As it is written, no one is righteous. No, not one. No one understands no one seeks God all have turned aside together, they become worthless, no one does good, not even one. And then he actually switches and starts quoting a different passage, and he says, their throat as an open grade, they use their tongues deceive, the venom asks is under their lips, etc. And they'll look at this and you'll see what Paul just pulls out that one section of that Psalm without quoting the whole thing, and this is what you have to realize and this, I think that we've brought this up enough, but you have to understand the point of quoting passage in the New Testament, the people who were reading this the particularly the Jews, but the Gentiles, who had become Christians would have done their homework and would have learned the Old Testament as well. When when Paul pulls out a particular verse, The intention is not to just talk about that verse or that section of the Old Testament, the intention is to call to mind the entire passage, he just doesn't do so all at once. So so we have to think about things in that same way. So if if you and I were having a conversation about the law and about what, what it is that God requires, and I will say it I was to say to you, well, what God requires is that we do justice, we love mercy, and we walk, you know, we walk humbly with God, you and I both know the contacts or presumably we do obviously we do now since we've been studying Micah. But the idea is we know that context, you know, that when I pull that verse out, and I apply that verse, I'm including the entire context in my point, and that's where it's important. For us to know and understand and internalize the Scripture, because if you internalize the scripture in in big chunks and you really spend time studying and digesting and meditating on the word, then you're not going to do this. It's almost an instinctual thing. Unless I'm like intentionally making a point or joking around. It's actually difficult at times for me to miss apply the scripture like I have to think harder, a lot of times on how to miss apply a scripture than I do, how to just apply it because I spend that time in the word. So understanding that this is part of the covenant lawsuit understanding that this is this is actually God's accusation against the people of Israel, that this is what I required. I made it clear to you what I require, you know, and then on top of that, knowing this brings to mind Deuteronomy 1012. This past three talks about freedom from Israel or from Egypt. This brings to mind Exodus 20 One, like all of that stuff has to be embedded in your mind embedded in your heart. Because then when you pull a verse forward, you drag with it all of its context and all of its co text, which is the other texts around it, that it references, you're actually bringing all of that to bear on whatever points you're making, versus just taking this isolated set of words and applying those sets of words, to the context to whatever you're applying it to. You're actually bringing the full force of that passage and all of the related passages to a particular a particular topic. And, you know, we I wasn't going to go here, but that's actually what's going on in the Westminster Confession proof tax. Sometimes people look at the proof texts in the confession of the catechisms. And they go, this seems like it's pulled out of context. It seems like this isn't working. The one that comes to mind is the question or the section on impassivity, with seeds without body parts or passions. The protects our passions is about Verse out of Acts, where Paul says, I think the I don't remember exactly which one it was, but one of the times and they wanted to worship Him, and He says, don't bow down to us. We're men of like passions just like you are. Well, the point is not to miss, apply that verse, it's actually dragging with it the fact that Paul is saying, No, no, don't worship me, like, I'm gone, because I have passions. God doesn't have passions. So you have to understand that that's what the confession is doing. That's what the catechisms are doing. And when we're utilizing proof texts, that's what we should be doing to we should be dragging with our texts that we're applying the entire context. And in some ways, even like the history of interpretation of that passage, to apply that forcefully to whatever we're talking about.

Jesse Schwamb 54:43
I think this idea is not foreign to us. It's just a matter of modality and medium. So for instance, we're probably more eager and willing and amicable to understand or accept this concept in let's say, like the sphere of movies. So like for instance, if I quote a Tommy Boy line to be like Niner. What do you call from a walkie talkie? Yeah, when I quote that the only way it works is because we have a common and collective understanding of the entire context in which that particular phrase exists. Yeah, it's funny. Exactly. And only because the context. And so the same thing is happening here to Micah. He never intended for this to again, to be slapped on somebody bumper sticker, it was to happen within the full scope and the counts of what he was saying. And then, of course, in the whole history of Israel. And so it's easy, because this is almost like the Bible is so amazing. And it is so profound, that the words themselves even in their own isolated way can have profound meaning to us. And this in some ways, it just speaks to the enormity of God that we can pull them out and of course, grab something from them. But the greater truth, the more profound a meeting always happens in the context, just like quoting a line from a movie. Yeah, it's not funny unless you know, what the movies about and the context in which the line appeared.

Tony Arsenal 55:55
Yeah. And, you know, it strikes me to just just reasoning through this All this talk of sort of dragging the context with you and applying it. That's actually exactly what Mike is doing. Right? Of course, he's not just coming up with a pithy statement about, you know, doing justice and loving mercy and walking humbly. He's dragging with him the entire force of the book of Deuteronomy. He's not just talking about the fact that God brought the people out of Israel out of Egypt, when he when he does that he's dragging with that the entire force of the 10 commandments. And so like, like always, our best model for how to apply the Scripture is the Scripture. Whether it's Yes, whether it's Paul, whether it's Micah, whether it's Jesus doing it when he pulls forward, just like we talked about earlier with that, that pet peeve. He's not just saying two or three, arbitrarily, he's dragging with him, the entire force of the Old Testament judicial structure and what what what What constitutes proper evidentiary standards? Right? He's dragging with him, that whole context. And so the reason that this is so powerful when you're able to do this, and the reason why we have to spend the time in the word to internalize this stuff, is that you're able to actually apply the entirety of God's counsel, given to us in the Scripture, to a given situation with a very, rather almost miraculous economy of words, right, you're able to use a very short phrase, and be able to apply that phrase and apply the full weight of God's Word to whatever you're looking at, without having to expend, you know, hours and hours of discourse and exegetical insight and Hebrew analysis. You're not you don't have to do that. If you really understand the scriptures and can do this well.

Jesse Schwamb 57:52
Right. Yeah, I think that's right on. I mean, going back to like Jackson's question to kind of round it out a bit is this idea of What do we need to pay attention to so to speak? What kind of, of the laws here Do we need to follow along with? That's the beauty. There's a confluence happening here. It's like two river heads coming together. And Mike, of course, is reminding the people of God that what God requires is justice as a kindness is a humble walk with you, for those that call him their Savior. But that doesn't mean that Micah sees the sacrifices as dispensable as long as these ethical requirements are kept. But he's actually saying instead, and this is again, in the context is the Prophet as a mouthpiece of the mouthpiece of God is saying, all the sacrifices in the world will get us nowhere, if we do not have the sincere faith that bears fruit in love of God. raber Exactly. The Lord's covenant is not a quid pro quo. It's not relationship or commercial exchange when we negotiate a price that he delivers our return in exchange, his covenant of salvation with sinners is a relationship grounded in his effectual love that changes hearts and guarantees our loyalty to him. Yeah, all of that happens in this world. But again, when we kind of just even well intentioned, strip it out of the context and pull it out and say like, isn't this so beautiful it is. But it's all the more beautiful when we place it in the light is it's as if like, what we have here is a beautiful foreground that Mike has painted for us. But we pulled it out of the background. And it's going to be amazing if we just put it back into the full breadth and scope of the painting, which he's delivered to us all throughout the previous chapters, which precede this particular verse. And six, eight.

Tony Arsenal 59:31
Yeah, yeah, well, I think that's as good a place for us to stop as any, you know, we, we are surprised and overjoyed. overjoyed might be a bit of an extreme exaggeration, I guess. We're very excited that our group, our Facebook group is developing the way it is so. So yeah, it's a fun group. It's a good place to interact. We've got great people who are helping us to keep the conversation going. It's got its own little flavor. I do agree It's a little spicy at times, but it's spicy in the best way. And you know, we would love it if people would join that group and and continue the conversation. Yeah, we've got a lot of cool ideas for things that we want to do. We've got some thoughts about the future of the podcast, but really, you know, we want this not just to be our podcast, just me and Jesse, but we want this to be a podcast that really is driven by the community by what the community wants, what the community needs, what questions the community is asking. So join the group, interact with us interact with the other members of the Brotherhood, and let us know what you're looking for. Let us know how we can edify and help you. And then there's also obviously question Cass. I will ask Jesse what the phone number is, but he never knows. So he, you know, he can repeat the same affirmation about popcorn but I can't repeat the phone number. I don't understand. But that phone number is 60744 to 767

Jesse Schwamb 1:00:56
Bros. Rose. Yeah, please, again. If you're thinking like, Am I the kind of person that would call a voicemail and leave a message? Yes, yes, you are. Yeah, so definitely give us a call and leave whatever you'd like there, either whether that's a commentary or a question. We would love, love so much to hear it. So I'm, of course, still new to the Facebook thing, but I've been enjoying the community. And here's what I learned this week, because in a previous episode, I gave it rather strong and I would say triggering denial against Well, I don't know if this is the denial, but I made a comment about against country music. I've learned since that's why new people liked country music and that's fine. Like that's, that's totally your prerogative. I've also learned there's like maybe a distinction between Country and Western music. I don't even understand what that is. Yeah, but that seems crazy to me that there's like another level beyond country music. There is Western. And wow, I was I was blown away by

Tony Arsenal 1:01:53
that. I don't know where to go from there.

Jesse Schwamb 1:01:56
You can't go anywhere. Every day is a school day and I was like, wow, this is That thing that was that was exceptional. The last thing I want to say as we wrap this up to bring it like entirely full circle is, I was reminded again as you were speaking and thinking about the way in which we speak with one another and the language and context that again, for anybody who's wondering, Is this the way that we actually talked to one another? I want to ask you if you remember you and I were having a conversation this is gonna sound like super romantic and it's not necessarily meant to be but it but it was a pretty, you know, impacting, you know, interaction. You and I, we were walking on a beach and it was in Massachusetts and we're comparing this particular beach to other beaches that we've also been Wow, this just sounds so weird other beaches that you and I've also been at and walked along. And I remember you saying, You know what, I don't really like the Constitution of the speech. And and I remember thinking at the time, like, yeah, that's well said, like, I don't really I think this constitution of this speech is not particularly superior to other beats that we've been on and only When I relayed that story to my wife, and unfortunately made the mistake of using the exact language that she was like, Is that what you guys actually said to one another? And I was like, Yeah, what do you mean? And she was like you guys are?

Tony Arsenal 1:03:13
Yeah, we really are. It's okay. The best part is that between you and me, we have probably like three types of jargon language that we could use. So I have like, we share, like theological jargon. And then I have like medical jargon, and you have like little jargon. So there's this strange mixture of analogies and yeah, you guys, you listeners know, because you've listened to 171 episodes of it. But yeah, I really enjoy that.

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:44
Well, that was what I was something I was also thinking about is that somebody and maybe it's just one person, but I'm guessing it's at least a handful have probably been with us through 171 hours. Yeah, no more. Yeah, it's crazy. You and I speaking to each

Tony Arsenal 1:04:00
It's crazy. Yeah, cuz there's also other episodes that aren't numbered episodes that aren't in that count. So,

Jesse Schwamb 1:04:07
yes. And have you ever listened to the first episode that we did? It's so rough, rough. It's, we don't even introduce ourselves. Like we were, we were trying we were trying to be like kind of I think edgy and respectful of like this is just like people listening to a conversation so I remember that was episode about the church which I think was the right place to begin this whole journey and yet when I listened back and I'm like man and yet here's the funny thing for anybody's ever heard themselves recorded or seen themselves videotaped. Or just video I guess, cuz that's school more if I guess video tape. It's one of those things where you look back and you're like, man, why was I such a neat thing is you always are like that is in real time. That's who I am. It's true.

Tony Arsenal 1:04:52
Well On that note, until next time, Jessie. Honor everyone

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