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Tony and Jesse have the ultimate penultimate discussion in Micah cast.
Jesse Schwamb 0:10
Welcome to Episode 175 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
Tony Arsenal 0:17
And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast of brotherly love.
Hey, brother,
Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey, brother, what's going on?
Tony Arsenal 0:33
You know, I just had one of those like brain cramp moments and I almost said we are proud members of the Society of reform podcasts. That happened we're like your brain reverts into some old like track of thinking and you're not quite sure why,
Jesse Schwamb 0:47
all the time. And yeah, like I've already disclosed in this podcast before. So I'm already acknowledging that I've said this once before, is, I have this issue a lot for whatever reason at work when it comes to Like, I would say, like more complicated or nuanced theory. So part of what's great about my job is I get to talk about theory as it relates to finance. And I find oftentimes that end up default using theological language, because it's just what I used to thinking about and talking about casually with people. And so it's, I mean, nothing is so like embarrassing, but nothing stops a very technical conversation about finance. When instead like you say the word historian when you mean meant to say something else, or say that word, like, the theological implications of this instead of like the, you know, something else. Theoretical? Yeah, yeah, like theoretical. Yeah, it's, it happens all the time. So, listen, you are in good company.
Tony Arsenal 1:44
Yeah, there's a YouTube channel called Smarter Every Day, which is this. He's a Christian guy. I don't know. Like, what's what flavor of Christian Yes, but he seems like a pretty good guy. And it's kind of one of those like, get smarter kinds of podcasts. like YouTube channels, he does a lot of slow motion stuff. But he has he did a TED talk. And he did this like experiment where he built a bicycle.
Jesse Schwamb 2:07
Yes. Talk about this,
Tony Arsenal 2:10
that steers backwards like, like when you turn right, it turns left. And like, you can't just ride it. And he actually went through all of the trouble of learning how to ride the bicycle correctly, like how to ride the backwards bicycle. And then he went back and tried to ride a regular bicycle and he couldn't do it. And it's funny because he said that actually, he was trying to ride the regular bicycle and he actually physically felt it was like his brain clicked into the old like neural pathway, and he could suddenly ride the regular bicycle again. And there was like a physical sensation of like clicking into that groove. So that's what it reminds me of when I I almost say, we're proud members of the Society of a
Jesse Schwamb 2:52
fun podcast. It's just a well worn, wonderfully comfortable and familiar path.
Tony Arsenal 2:57
That's like a good pair of jeans. We're going for that top 50 innovative fashion podcast now. We're done with healthcare, healthcare, we've we've dominated that market.
Jesse Schwamb 3:11
So before we get into the affirmations Now, let me just say though, how Right you are, and how wonderful sovereignty and is because you said that I just like the right time for me because I just happened to watch a documentary about jeans. And one of the things that this documentary brings forward as like a reason for why jeans are so special and so iconic and so embedded in our culture is that they're like a fingerprint like because they're died. The way in which you wear them means that your dreams The way in which they fade the exact way what you wash them, the laundry detergent that you use, how you sit in them. All that stuff is so unique and special, that it actually distinguishes your pair of jeans from like any other in all of history.
Tony Arsenal 3:56
I feel like that's a CSI episode waiting to happen. CSI self show is still a thing.
Jesse Schwamb 4:03
Not only is it still show, I think it's like in 60 different cities, right? Isn't that like how they do it now? Like, Jamie CSI? Oh,
Tony Arsenal 4:10
yeah, they did one that was like CSI data division where it was like all like, like digital hackers and stuff. I was like, All right, we're stretched a little bit. Pretty soon it's gonna be like CSI lunar base. Wow, that was epic right there. They're gonna be investigating crimes on the moon. And then they'll be they'll, they'll be the opening sequence and it'll be like, this guy was thrown outside of the airlock. And then the guy will be like, well, his death was out of this world. I know like crank into the music.
Jesse Schwamb 4:41
It's that dude that has the sunglasses that always pulls them down a little bit before he says that Yeah,
Tony Arsenal 4:45
they always have the most amazing names his name in her ratio, Kane.
Jesse Schwamb 4:50
Is it really?
Tony Arsenal 4:50
Yeah, her ratio Kane is the character's name.
Jesse Schwamb 4:54
I have not seen I just know enough to like make fun of and judge them superlatively. I don't know anything about the actual series? lest anybody think that like somehow in front of us, we have an outline for this episode. And part of that was like point a talk about CSI. This is literally we just hit the button. And this is what happens.
Tony Arsenal 5:13
Yeah, I don't even know where we're What are we even talking about tonight?
Jesse Schwamb 5:15
What are we talking? Well, let's start with some affirmations. You want to go first?
Tony Arsenal 5:18
Yeah, let's do it. So, I know we try to avoid the reformed weather cast, although that would actually be a pretty cool podcast idea. But every once in a while, you just have to celebrate the weather. And you know, it's been it hasn't been a particularly cold weather. Winter, but it's been like in the like high 30s and like low 40s here this week, today and probably tomorrow. I'll be warm too. So like it's bright out. It's sunny. It's warm, like the snow is starting to melt a little bit. You can smell plants and dirt and like it's just good. It just feels good to have like the sun out and be warm.
Jesse Schwamb 6:00
Now cut to like all the people who are listening right now that are in either warm climates all year round or like, let's say like the left coast, the United States who have no idea what you're talking about, like that just seems like normal life. There's never a point in time where you can't smell the dirt. Yeah.
Tony Arsenal 6:15
Yeah, I mean, it's just it's just nice. I mean, there's really no good way to explain it. Other than that, although it is supposed to snow again later this week. So possibly by the time people are listening to this, well, I could be like, not actually happy about the weather anymore.
Jesse Schwamb 6:30
Oh, you're gonna be shuffling. It's not over yet. This is.
Tony Arsenal 6:33
Oh, yeah, well, it's not even March. There'll be at least one more like big like foot, like foot. stump foot snow dump this year. easy for me to say.
Jesse Schwamb 6:45
Best part of the podcast so yeah.
Tony Arsenal 6:47
My brain just like glitched out for a second there.
Jesse Schwamb 6:49
No, that was absolutely wonderful. I loved it.
Tony Arsenal 6:52
Yeah. What about you? What are you affirming?
Jesse Schwamb 6:54
So I'm affirming something that for you and I is kind of a blast from the past and I was reminded of this website. This week and I thought, you know what, this is something people should check out because I'm not sure if like the actual practical utility of this, although there are good reasons to use it. But it's kind of just fun. So the website I'm affirming with is archive.org. Do you remember this? Yes.
Tony Arsenal 7:14
archive.org I still use it for stuff,
Jesse Schwamb 7:17
do you certainly. So archive.org for anybody who's not familiar is basically like this Omnibus where you can kind of keep and post all this kind of free content. But the reason why I'm affirming with it is because it has this fun feature, where if you go to archive dot.org, and type in the search, you can type in a website. And what archive.org does is using what they call like the Wayback Machine, it basically captures previous versions of the website. So you can kind of do this wonderful thing where you can trace all the iterations of the various versions of a website that you you've used or loved through time and go back and reminisce at how simplistic and simple it looked at one point in time, so it's really kind of just like a really fun thing, but you can post and still still Like all kinds of media content on there's kind of this yes public domain.
Tony Arsenal 8:04
Yeah, it is a really cool service. It has a lot of different stuff that you can look at a lot of public domain stuff is on there. The the online seminary program that I'm using stores a lot of like the free public domain theology works that we use for class they hosted there so we don't have to pay for it. So like you can get all of Charles Hodges systematic theology for examples available on on way back.org. It's also really useful around the Wayback Machine is really useful if you're trying to research like, like position or something that somebody said, but they've changed their website, you can actually go back and look. So like I'm looking at the original or like the oldest archive version of our website, which looks pretty much the same. I mean, it's a little bit different, but it looks basically the same. But you can sometimes you can like catch someone in the act of changing like pretending they never said something, but you can pull up like an old version of their website. So that can be helpful. Sometimes
Jesse Schwamb 9:05
it's kind of like a website time capsule, isn't it, which is really fun just to like pull it out of the ground and see what something looked like, even if you want to go to like a major website. It's really cool to see what it looked like, like a decade ago, and you can do that on archive.org.
Tony Arsenal 9:19
Yeah, yeah, it's a great service, and it's free. So it's great to like, a little known feature of the website, if you have an account and you upload a file, it will automatically convert that file into like every other similar kind of file. So if I upload a WAV file, it'll automatically converted to an mp3. Or if I upload a Word document, it'll automatically converted to a PDF and make both of those available. Because the purpose of the website is to make these files available, not only to like archive them, but to make them available to like widespread audiences, so they convert them. So if you have a file that you can't use, and you're trying to find a way to convert It, oftentimes you can use, upload it to archive.org and automatically convert it for you.
Jesse Schwamb 10:05
It's pretty sweet. It's this is like a rabbit hole, you can spend like an hour on easily. So that's why I'm encouraging everybody to stop what they're doing and procrastinate a bit and go check it out. Yeah,
Tony Arsenal 10:14
yeah, I'm with that.
Jesse Schwamb 10:16
So you gotta denial.
Tony Arsenal 10:18
I do. So in our little 32nd pre show conference, I asked you if you would be okay trusting me to have a shared denial today. And the only reason I know that this will be an appropriate shared denial is because we have in the past, done an entire episode about this denial. So okay. We have the rare probably not once in a lifetime once in like every eight years opportunity for our show to actually be published on what I like to call scorched earth Wednesday. So, in reality, most evangelicals know the first Wednesday of lent to their some like arcane formula to fix You're out exactly when that is. But they've noticed Ash Wednesday. And so I am denying against Ash Wednesday. Yes. And so here's the deal, okay. A reasonable argument can be made to celebrate even annually, the the mighty acts of God and redemptive history, right? celebrating the birth of Christ celebrating events surrounding the passion celebrating, you know, even even things like some sort of annual commemoration of God's redeeming people out of Egypt or something like that. As long as you're not making it a mandatory holy day or investing some sort of special theological significance in it. I think you can make a good argument for that. What you can't, however, make a good argument for is inventing a day entirely out of whole cloth that is not tied to any sort of redemptive event in redemptive history, and then creating some sort of pseudo sakra ads, where you put a symbol of contrition on your head display it for all the world to see. So whether you're a you know, quote unquote truly reformed person who is an exclusive sombody you know, no holy days no celebration of anything except the Lord state person or whether you're kind of the more average reform person who recognizes that there may be some problems with the way Christmas is executed in our modern context, but overall are still okay with that kind of thing. Ash Wednesday is just a no fly zone no matter how you dice it.
Jesse Schwamb 12:32
Yeah, I totally agree with that. I would like to encourage people to like go around down that day and if they see somebody that has the cross their head maybe just lick their thumb and be like, I'm sorry you got a little something here. Let me add an offer you
Tony Arsenal 12:43
Yeah, I mean, that's assault. So don't do that. But I you could verbally assault that I guess. Don't do that either. What I would like to do is stand outside of like a Lutheran Church and just like just like hurl just quote the second commandment of people all day long as they walk out.
Jesse Schwamb 13:04
I like to say that to maybe like throwing a sandwich board, it's good to a full immersive experience. And I want to just affirm your denial and say, Yes, my denial was very much I entrusted it to you. I've outside the responsibility, and I feel totally, totally at ease with what you just said. And so all the only thing I want to add is if somebody would actually like to go back and listen to us speak for an hour on that topic, or really get into it in a pretty deep and profound way. I think. Some I actually, I think actually, many have written on the internet that this was the definitive episode on Ash Wednesday, Episode Number 76. All the way back in 76. Land. You can find a whole episode we spoke about Ash Wednesday.
Tony Arsenal 13:45
Wow. That was like almost 100 episodes ago.
Jesse Schwamb 13:48
It was Isn't that incredible? I was crazy. That that makes you tonight? I like all the more sweet like just perfect timing, man, Providence. How about it?
Tony Arsenal 13:56
I know. So what I would like everyone who's listening to is to do it. Go find Episode 76. And then every time on the internet that you see someone today posted about Ash Wednesday, just drop that link right in there. I will also be putting up lots of anti Ash Wednesday memes on our account. And also I will try to recreate the original scorched earth Wednesday meme, which is the somewhat infamous native and by who first Ash Wednesday meme, I think that was my first foray into like, the world of like, professional meaning. So I feel like it was a pretty significant one though, I see that every once in a while I'll see that meme pop up somewhere else that I haven't, I haven't placed it. And that's how you know you've really made it as a meme creator, when you start seeing them out in the wild in places that you didn't put them.
Jesse Schwamb 14:48
Listen, your meme game is strong. Nobody's going to doubt that. I think that actually may have been the first meme from you that I like actually laughed out loud. It's like the traditional imagery, you know So close to like, man, what's this stuff called with like the felts and yeah, actors. It's like, yeah, it's so close to that, that it just resonated with me as like a person who grew up a certain era where you're seeing that kind of illustration. And then for you to pair it together it it really was a beautiful thing coming together. I absolutely love it. So it's I love that we've basically taken this and turn to this quote, unquote, like religious experience or holiday into something that's, like our own expression of it, which is everything that is against it.
Tony Arsenal 15:32
Yeah, so I might have got a little bit overboard this year. But in in our queue, which posts twice a day, sorry, three times a day to our account. I have memes that will last until March 3. So words, yeah, there's a lot of a lot. I feel pretty good about this year's meme lineup. There's a little there's a Spice Girls meme in there. Wow. There's some good Like, like Marvel movies means there's some Star Wars meems there's some SpongeBob feel pretty good about this year's offering so
Jesse Schwamb 16:10
I that's the other thing that maybe this is what distinguishes the professionals from the amateurs, you do have a breath and a depth that is is pretty exceptional. I will say that like I I never know and, and like it like you said, I know that we have a lineup you've done a really good job at crafting and curating if you will, like a, like a detailed artist. These memes and even when I'm looking at our feed, I never know what's gonna pop up next. Like there would be no way of your life guess just guess. There's no way it's gonna happen.
Tony Arsenal 16:42
I put a meme up the other day that was was basically like pro Baptist. And it really like people were really confused. I did
Jesse Schwamb 16:51
see that I
Tony Arsenal 16:52
was like, No, no, no, I'm an equal opportunity member. I have to represent my Baptist brother in law on this account because it's A shared endeavor here. So it happens once in a while.
Jesse Schwamb 17:03
Again, that's what separates you as a professional from the amateurs that are out there just slapping memes together willy nilly.
Tony Arsenal 17:11
I do slap them together willy nilly. Usually it's like, like I'm waiting for like my coffee to get done at work and I throw together I mean, but it's good stuff. I have a good time with it.
Jesse Schwamb 17:23
Well, this has been Episode 175 of the beam cast has been wildly successful.
Tony Arsenal 17:30
That would be a boring episode, a boring podcast, the main cast you just like, visually, like verbally described,
Jesse Schwamb 17:36
guys. Yeah. It's like, totally abusing the medium of the podcast. Although some might argue that's what we've been doing all along. So it's true that vein by way of some modicum of transition, where it still will actually I won't say knee deep. We are still on the mica hustle. But we're actually nearing the end of this whole series, which to me is a little bit sad. When I looked at the text in front of us and realize that we only have yet a couple more episodes to go,
Tony Arsenal 18:06
yeah, yeah, I think this is the pen ultimate Micah cast it might be,
Jesse Schwamb 18:13
by the way, excellent use up and ultimate.
Tony Arsenal 18:15
I do try.
Jesse Schwamb 18:16
That was exactly it used enough and not enough properly.
Tony Arsenal 18:19
It's also the vocab cast apparently.
Jesse Schwamb 18:24
Yes. So we have had people say that for instance, we like to throw around the Word Perfect up for many reasons one because that's what it's called into because it's just super fun and so I love that somebody had noted a thing of the Facebook group that they finally we probably just wore them down and they finally looked up that word and they're like, man, I gotta relate to these nerds found out what it means. So hopefully they'll be somebody else's grabbing the Oxford English Dictionary right now to look up penultimate.
Tony Arsenal 18:51
Yeah, so we're getting into our last couple episodes here of Micah cast, and today we're going to talk about Micah chapter seven. We're really just going to go through verse seven. So we probably could have gone a little bit further and broken this last chapter up a little bit more. But do you have that in front of you? You want to go and just read it?
Jesse Schwamb 19:09
Yeah, I do. So here's Micah chapter seven verses one through seven. Whoa is me for I have become as when the summer fruit has been gathered, as when the grapes have been gleaned. There is no cluster to eat no first right fig that my soul desires. The godly has perish from the earth. And there's no one up right among mankind. They all lie and wait for blood, and each hunts the other with a net. Their hands are on what is evil to do it well. The Prince of the judge asked for a bribe and the great man others the evil desire of his soul, thus they weave it together. The best of them is like a Briar the most upright of them as a thorn hedge. The day of your watchman of your punishment has come. Now their confusion is at hand. Put no trust in a neighbor, have no confidence and a friend guarded the doors of your mouth, from her who lies in your arms for the suntree The father with contempt, the daughter rises up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law. A man's enemies are the men of his own house. But as for me, I will look to the Lord, I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me.
Tony Arsenal 20:18
Wow. So this is, you know, as we've said, you know, once you get into Micah six, you're kind of winding down and we enter sort of the last sort of judgment cycle or judgment Oracle cycle. And so Micah here starts off. Basically, he's using this agricultural or horticultural metaphor to talk about what it's like when God sort of looks upon the earth. And what he anticipated, right, you were using anthropomorphic language, but what he anticipated was a harvest of righteousness. Right? Right. So this is Micah is sort of looking forward to the end of Israel to sort of this mid mid point in history. Judgment, and what should have happened what God had intended. What, what should have come about was that Israel should have recognized the righteousness of the Lord they should have lived according to the righteous precepts of God's law, and thus should have reaped this harvest of righteousness of, of good, righteous fruits, which the Lord would then use to sort of spread salvation to the rest of the world. Right. That's what should have happened in the garden with Adam, he should have reaped righteousness and spread that to all of his posterity descending for him by ordinary generation. When that failed, God elected Israel for the same task and the same result happened. And so when he says, as when to summer fruit has been gathered as when the grapes have been gleaned, he's basically saying this is sort of a strange way to talk about it. But all the commentators that I read are pretty much unanimous on this. He's basically saying, It's like when you go into the fruit, the fruit fields in the middle of summer, and there's nothing there. Right, right. Because there's in Israel there was there was basically Two harvests. There was sort of a late spring harvest, and then there was sort of a mid fall harvest. And so in the summer in the middle of the summer, the, the fruit from the spring harvest is already been taken. So there's none of that. And the fruit from the fall harvest is not yet Not yet. fruited, yet, there's no growth yet to sustain that. And so what he's saying is that, it's like God came to the field, and instead of the harvest that he anticipated, he found these barren trees and these barren vines, which would have already been gleaned, there's no cluster to eat. There's no right fig, that God or the prophet Micah kind of speaking as God here, that his soul desires, and so he clarifies exactly what he's talking about in verse two. And he says, the godly of perish from the earth, there is no one up right among mankind. So there's a little bit of prophetic exaggeration. And there's a point on that that I want to make but but we'll get there in a second. There's a little bit of what I call kind of prophetic exaggeration, where the Prophet is talking in absolute terms to sort of indicate to the severity or the extent of what he's saying, even though literally speaking, it's not true that there was no one upright among mankind, like the prophet Micah was upright among mankind, the prophet Isaiah, who was a contemporary was upright among mankind. So it's, it's not the case that there is not really anyone righteous, because there are some people who've been saved by faith in Christ, you know, namely, in this passage, Micah himself. But he's using this sort of exaggerated language to drive home the point that the pervasiveness of sin has kind of reached its culmination, and now is all expansive in Israel.
Jesse Schwamb 23:41
Yes. I think that's exactly the right way to look at this because the Whoa, this personal trauma that Mike is experiencing, and projecting is really one of absence. It's a loss, but it's almost as if, as if it's a loss of expressing latent potential, and I don't mean to belittle the example that I'm about to use here. But this is the only thing that pops in my mind is like a near comparison that would be in the same way that we might mourn the unborn through abortion. It's almost as as Micah here is a mourning the fact that there was no fruit that should have been on the vine. Right? So he's saying there's no righteous persons that are going to be found among the people of Israel. And he's decrying the resulting national confusion that is both the result and the punishment of their sin. And so there's this striking statement about like the state of the family in the beginning and its breakdown As a result, the sinful actions of the people, and all of this is coming about because the fruit is just not there. It's almost like that song like wherever I think there is a song by this title, like wherever the Cowboys gone, like Where have all the godly gone, where are they? It's a question both. I think that's meant to be rhetorical, but also that's meant to emphasize that there was supposed to be in God's own people, the expression and the manifestation of men and women. Who were duly committed to God. And yet, even in God's own people, they do not exist because they have been rebellious. And so we have both the the manifestation of the punishment, and also the result of falling away from God. Yeah,
Tony Arsenal 25:18
yeah, so one thing, it's a little bit of a diversion or a side trip that I want to take. But one of the things that I know you and I have talked about, both off air and on air for what we're trying to accomplish with the show, is we're trying to we're trying to develop it ourselves. But we're hoping hopeful that as we do this kind of publicly that people will sort of follow along. And we're trying to develop what I call kind of like this theological spider sense, you might call it like a theological like bs detector. And one of the things that is necessary in order to develop that is a really broad reading of Scripture and a really extensive understanding and comprehensive reading of Scripture, which is why it's important to read Big sections of the texts. And this ties in with me, as I mentioned kind of obliquely on another episode, and then I, I mentioned it explicitly on the episode of latest form of flogging that I was on. I've been kind of reevaluating Doug Wilson's theology. And as part of that process, I've been reading a lot of the original federal vision sources. And I'm not at a point where I'm ready to say what my conclusions about Doug Wilson and his theology in relation to that are. But one of the things that has been reinforced in my mind is that federal vision theology is actually so much worse than what I even thought it was. And so one of their main errors is that they interpret passages in the New Testament that, you know, the apostle Paul speaks to the Ephesians right, he's speaking to a mixed body, but he calls them all the elect. He uses that language universally for his audience, even though he knows that likely among those are people who will not ultimately be saved. So, so they take that to mean, you become elect when you join the church, and you may become unelect when you leave the church, because otherwise Paul couldn't use that language of elect. Where this ties in here is, and this is what this is just an example of what I'm trying to sort of get to is when I read this, the first thing that was on my mind was this sort of prophetic exaggeration, and how what's happening here is actually the the exact opposite of what we see in the New Testament truly has some theological implications. But the flip side of it here is that if the way that the Federal vision folks interpret those passages is true, then what we have to say is these people, the righteous the remnant in Israel, they become damned by being part of Israel. But the problem is that there's no way for them not to become part of Israel not to be part of Israel apart from apostasy itself. So their whole hermeneutics that they apply to the New Testament cannot be applied to the Old Testament, which demonstrates that it's a faulty hermeneutic so you know, we've We've remarked in a couple different spots as we've studied Micah, that it's amazing how many different theological concepts are sort of embedded into Micah, and how understanding the profits is sometimes difficult. But when you really take the time to dig, and you get all this fruitful ground of theological concepts and theological imagery that you can sort of pull from, and it starts to create this grid that you can sort of plug theological concepts into and say, Well, this doesn't fit federal visions perspective on what the election language and the New Testament doesn't fit because it It can't apply to the reprobation language in the Old Testament. So yeah, that was just sort of a little like side path that I wanted to jump down. But I think it's it's important to sort of think about these kinds of alternate alternate pathways to refute things like that, which involves, again, sort of understanding the scripture on this broad like overarching level.
Jesse Schwamb 28:55
I think that's a great diversion. Actually, I'll get off on that path any day of the week, because without helps us to understand is that there is just this, there's a continuity to the Bible, but it's also contiguous. So when we get into these passages, they're speaking, where the Prophet is actually helping us to understand something about the promises of God as it's actually demonstrated in his people. That first, these aren't just purely theological and intellectual concepts. But that secondly, this is actually crying to a particular people in a particular time in place. And so it's easy for us sometimes to just sit back in and say, I love to think about these things. Like they're so beautiful that to conceptualize and to really kind of set out somewhere in my mind, but for the people of Israel, these are like real conversations, like Mike is actually speaking to them. And there is like a real ability for him to address a particular need at that point in time, but that they're actually receiving actual punishment right now. It's not just an idea. It's not just something like, psychologically that stimulating or intellectually that's interesting, but this idea like you were Went to there with this comparison of like the search for the summer fruits. I've actually been really meditating on that because it's like, it's fascinating in the sense that I can't find a really good example I've called with a couple of my minds like, if you're going to like search for, I don't know, like a real Christmas tree and a lot like end of December, you're not going to be so picked over. They are not going to find anything that's like actually beautiful just could be Charlie Brown trees or if you live maybe in the north east or anywhere where there's a significant amount of snow. And the news reports there's about to be bookstore when you go to grab water or bread and there's nothing left in the aisles. Everything is just been picked over. And there's nothing good that you'd want to watch us. It's a vast wasteland. And so for you to go out there and see it like and I think even someone speculate that Mike his comments here about this whole summer fruits thing, this idea that the fruit is gone, like What a ridiculous thing to go and look for, as you said after the harvest is actually taking place. But some would say even beyond that, that Mike his comments are maybe referring to the fact that Not only are the good people few, but those that are actually the few that remained who could be counted on as good. We're basically good for little they were like rendered fruit. And so it's this amazing irony that here once again are the people of God who were supposed to represent everything that is good in God Himself, following along in his example, being the ones who have the strongest fidelity to the precepts in the heart of who he is. And there is nothing but Baroness. I mean, that's, it's not only just embarrassing, it's it. I mean, I can see the more I think about this, why he mourns over it, why this is a cause of sorrow and distress and trouble for him. Because it's it's so deeply against and contrary to what God established, that it should cause us to be deeply saddened. And I think that even though we know as you said that Micah is addressing a particular people in a particular time, it still should give us pause, to bring the scripture as a mirror up to our own environment, our own churches. In our own lives in the same way.
Tony Arsenal 32:02
Yeah, yeah, have you um, you know, when you when you are in a rural area, it's not uncommon to come across like an old barn or like an old field, that it's clear that at one point it was being cultivated or maybe there was a building, you know, there might be some like farm equipment that's leftover. Yeah, sure. But but it hasn't been tended to, in quite some time. And what's what's interesting, and I'll, I'll bring it back to the text here, I promise is it's not like, it's not like nice fruit bushes that grow up over the barn or like that, like take back over the field. It's not as though whatever was planted there at one point just continues to grow on its own. And that's where this comes to in this next part of the text is that field that is left untended, that there's no fruit left in it. There's it's no longer being cultivated. What's left are weeds and thorns and thistles and Briar Rose, and so it's not Even just that God or the Prophet, whoever whoever's in view here, you know, Michael representing the profit or the representing God. It's not even as though he goes to a field that has been harvested recently, but it's still basically being maintained. This field is not only over harvested, but it hasn't been tended in so long that what's left now, the best of them in verse four is like a Briar the most apprai them are a thorn hedge. So this field which was once cultivated, and again, this goes back to imagery we saw earlier in, in the book, right, the high places where the people worshipped, they've become sort of this like forested, wild, wild place where it used to be a cultivated field. It's becoming that it's becoming this wild place where there's nothing left but thorns and briars. And so it says here, the day of your watchman of your punishment has come now their confusion is at hand. So so all of the people that once kept the nation safe, all of the people who We're in charge of sort of shepherding the place, they, they've kind of like abandon their responsibilities. And so their confusion is in hand. So what's left is this situation where they're, you know, there's you can't trust your neighbors, you can't trust your friends, people become sort of hunters of each other. Right? In verse two, they all lie in wait for blood, they each hunt, the other with a net, a lot of commentators will point out that the word that gets translated by the sphere as the other is actually brother. So it's not just like some other random person. It's like your close family, your kin, the people who live in your, in your neighborhood that you share life with. You can't even trust them anymore. So there's this disruption in the religious and civil life of Israel, that sort of trickles down into this disruption in the family life was in Israel. And to be honest with you, like how much is that like the United States right now? Like I don't want to be personal, but like that's what we see all around us. There was actually a An article that was just released, I didn't catch which, which publication was in, but it was some some sort of radical feminists. And they're actually going so far as to say now, the next step in creating a society where men and women are truly equal is to abolish the idea of family. Because in a family, even now, you know, as as quote, unquote, progressive as people have become, even now in husband, wife, couples, as hard as people try, somebody takes traditional roles that are feminine roles, and some take traditional masculine roles, and in some families, that the man takes the mass, quote, unquote, masculine role, and the woman takes the feminine, and sometimes that's reversed, but they're saying now the next step in sort of this progressive agenda, is to not just eliminate gender roles in the family, but to eliminate the concept of family altogether. So we really are living in a world right now where the judgment of God is coming on it on the really the whole Western society. And it's creating this situation where like all the sudden now, families are being torn apart. Sons treat fathers with contempt daughters treat mothers with contempt, you know, daughter in law and mother in law, which is a different kind of relationship in the ancient Near East, which is why it's called out specifically, those those relationships in the society of Israel already starting to break down.
Jesse Schwamb 36:20
And this is where you're right on because we see how important the common grace of God is. So this idea that will by merely removing the influence of God, it creates a situation in which there's just some kind of stagnant level of moral decay. It's actually the exact opposite because God Himself is such a constraining force in his goodness, either that is expressed just in common grace, that when it is removed, it's a decay that happens at exponential speed. So What a sad state of affairs is expressed in identifying the best of them, as you said, as these Tony briars, because briars, they scratch and they tear on contact. So here's this Beautiful metaphor game where it's not just, well, isn't it awful that God has left, but in the leaving in the removal, so to speak in separating ourselves from him, it results in not just again, this kind of place of decay that is stagnant in stable, but it's a place that brings exponential destruction. And so like in the final analysis, Micah declares that like, as you've already said, You can't have any faith in man, the lack of faith and holy dread in God precipitated a universal treachery among the people so that the confidence cannot be established in any person, especially those who are vouchsafed with the authority to act with equality and beneficence. And so even those who appear good, apparently, in God's own society, are willing to mislead God's own people, if they can acquire anything by doing so. So it's really this amazing, lamentable state when a man's betrayers and his worst enemies are those in his own house, his own children and serving those who should be his best friends and protectors seek His violation and his ruin? How far away have we drifted then from God, when that is what has become normative. So it's it's a destruction here, I think we often think about destruction as the absence of something that is good. But when that good is removed, it results in a sliding scale of decay that is a very, very precipitous, and Micah here is a given Thanksgiving. I think the reason why we have this in its written form in this particular context, is to provide the kind of warning that you're speaking of that it's ironic to me, that how, in the sense that human beings are so sinful, so misguided, so self serving, that in their own effort to bring about what they think is greater equality, they are literally cutting the branch on which they stand over how ironic and lamentable that is. And in some ways I think that's overlapping with this idea is overlapping with what Mike is dealing with here.
Tony Arsenal 38:59
Yeah, and You know, sometimes I think, Christians in the Western world and I think particularly in America, because we're a little bit behind sort of the decay of society that we see in some of the European countries, we sort of end up with this doom and gloom perspective and and that's warranted on a certain level because we really are living in kind of a, I don't want to say unprecedented but at least in terms of, of modern Western society, we're living in an unprecedented state. But nevertheless, right this is where the Prophet ends this little puppy here. Yes. As for me, I will look to the Lord, I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me so even though all of this stuff that he just said is true. There's there's no fruit, the best. The most upright and righteous of the people that are left are just thorns and thistles that you know, it's it's come to a place where you no longer can trust your neighbor. You no longer can trust your friend. You have to guard here talks about going guarding the doors of your mouth from her lies in your arms. So that's probably the Prophet is probably not talking about some sort of sword sexual interaction is probably talking about wife, right? That's the relationship that's missing son, Father, daughter, mother, the one who lays in your arms, probably talking about your wife, so can't trust your friends can't trust your neighbor, you can't trust your wife can't trust your kids. You can't trust those who are appointed to guard over you. But as for me, I will look to the Lord, I will wait for the God of my salvation. And this is essentially right. If you go all the way back to Joshua. Right. This is the refrain of God's people is as for me in my house, I will trust the Lord. So Joshua stands on sort of the the border of the Promised Land, and he says, choose this day who you're going to serve. Are you going to serve the gods of your father's the gods beyond the river? Are you going to serve the Lord? And the people at that time say, well, we're going to serve the Lord and Joshua. I like to think he kind of chuckled. I was like, No, you're not like you're not like, you can't But but the history of Israel all the way from Joshua all the way back to Moses all the way through now to Micah is this repeated question of choose this day whom you will serve. And in this case, again the people have chosen to serve their own selfishness, their own greed. they've they've worshipped literally worshiped other gods. But the prophet here as now a representative of God's remnant elect people, is proclaiming the salvation of the Lord by saying, I will look to the Lord, I will wait for the God of my salvation, and my god will hear me like that's, that's where we stand now as Christians sort of living in exile in our own our own world, our own nation, is we stand here in this situation where, honestly, like, people are getting fired every day for expressing things that 50 years ago would have been totally uncontroversial, not just about sex, human sexuality or transgenderism, but just religious religious faith in general. People get fired for expressing their their religious convictions that literally everyone 60 years ago would have agreed with, on a very basic level. So what we have to look at now is we don't we can't trust in Christendom, right, whatever that means whatever that was. We can't trust in sort of like the general civic religion of Christianity, which was sort of just around everywhere. When I was growing up. Everybody was a Christian. I remember I don't know, I was thinking about this the other day, but I remember a real distinctly I can even picture like, where we were standing on the playground. And I asked another kid on the playground, well, what religion are you? And he said, Baptists, and I was a Lutheran, right? So like, so like, you know, but I just turned 37 a couple days ago. And that was maybe, I don't know, let's say 30 years ago. Let's say I was seven or seven or eight years old. 30 years ago, it would have been unheard of. In my little town, my little suburban Minnesota. for someone to be asked that question for them to say anything other than Some sort of Christian denomination, I thought the girl who said she was a Presbyterian, I thought she was really crazy strange because I didn't know what that word meant. Right? But it would have been unheard of for someone to say like, well, I'm, I'm a Muslim, or I'm Jewish, or I'm an atheist, that would have been even more unheard of than someone who was Jewish or Muslim. So we live in a very different world where like, religious life is different. civic life is different. political life is different. Family Life is different. But we still have the same God who is sovereign over the people. He's remnant in Israel. He's sovereign over the church. He's sovereign over his remnant that he's now retaining even in our day.
Jesse Schwamb 43:36
Let me first give you kudos on an amazing transition and segue there. That was beautiful. And I'm saying that because I think the segue that you presented is exactly the biblical pattern that Michael it's out here and that is this idea. He's basically said, like all these things, he's brought the full weight to bear of God's judgment and basically saying, this is as bad maybe as it's ever been, yet. There is hope in God. Right. And I think that's the important linchpin. That's the inflection point that we need to understand the hinge on which we need to turn because the Prophet he's lamented and more and this wickedness of the times in which he's lived and but he's refocuses at the end of this perk up on some considerations for comfort for himself and for his loved ones. In other words, the cases bad as you've just said, but it's not desperate. And there's a big difference there. actually really like what Matthew Henry says, he has this kind of just offhanded comments on the verse that you're speaking about, he writes this? No, it is our sin against God that provokes his indignation against us, and we must see it and own it. Whenever we are under divine rebukes that we may justify God and may study to answer his end and afflicting us by repenting of sin and breaking off from it. So this idea in the sense that what Mike is saying to us is there where there is sin, where there's a turning away from God, you all to recognize how serious that offense is, it's not about the size of the sin itself. But about the one who finds a fence in it. Yeah. And then beyond that to your points, this in many ways, understanding how bad things are, gives us a recourse to God under a troubles. And what I mean is, I think one of the amazing things that we draw out of this verse, as it comes to us in the embedded portion of the passage is that even in woeful times, there is comfort that we have a god to look to. Yeah, I've got to come to a god to flee to. And as Micah has no comfort or confidence in the people around him, he is driven to God as the satisfier. And I think even in our own the North American, the US political climate right now, we get the sensors all just seems also desperate. But it's that exact kind of desperation that should make us happy that we go and run and dive into the arms of the one who is Savior and satisfier because it helps us to realize the juxtaposition of the world in which we live, such that we're actually propelled back into The scriptures were our surety is really found, because we've been loved for a long time into thinking that our culture is so accepting that this is the place where we belong. And I think that when we are pushed in a direction that makes us realize that it's not that that actually is for our greatest good and for God's glory. So the less reason we had to delight in all of our earthly relations. There more reason, we had to delight in God. And I think he's exactly that reason why you find across this world where the gospel is pure, sick, persecuted, there is a greater delighted God for that very reason. Because it become what is playing in the Scriptures, by way of truth becomes playing in our lives by way of actual reality. And maybe we've just been spoiled for so long, where we fail to realize that that's the case.
Tony Arsenal 46:49
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good place for us to wrap it up tonight. I mean, this has been such an amazing journey through the book of Micah for me, I just The prophets have always been I've said this several times of prophets, you know, like Isaiah. Okay. Yeah, like you read the Messianic stuff. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Or like Jeremiah, like y'all. Yeah, the during the destruction of Jerusalem like, it makes sense on a certain level. But it's always felt sort of detached like I was reading somebody else's mail. And yeah, there's a certain level like, Yes, that's true on a certain in a certain sense. But it's been really great going through the book of Micah, to see how much the prophets at least this prophet, I suppose I should be specific, how much Micah is really be eternal, contemporary, because everything that he's saying in this, this book, it applies to our day in its own sense in its own way. Because just as the church in Micah's day in the people of Israel was sort of a church under siege, so also the church throughout her history has been in various ways of church under siege, and that really is where we're at. So I'm excited to finish this up. I'm excited to see kind of where we go next. So if you have benefited from this micro series, please, the best thing you can do is to share it with a friend. So go back, you can go to the website, you can find the category Micah cast, which will link to all of the different Micah cast episodes, share it with a friend, you know, take a look at it, listen to it again. Give us some feedback. What do you want us to do next? What's the next series? What's the next topic you want us to cover? We want this this podcast to be beneficial to the people who listen to it. And the best way for us to know what you need. And what you want is for you to tell us
Jesse Schwamb 48:35
and one of the ways in which this whole series might be useful to some is that if you've ever been a part of a group, either formally or informally that way, you might say like a small group or spiritual formation group of a group of people getting together on some regular basis to do orthopraxy living out orthodoxy together. I'm I struck me this week, as we've been thinking about this series that maybe this might be some use in those situations. And what I'm is get a group of people together and either maybe listen to it together and then you can make awkward awkward on eye contact with one another as we speak in like the first like 20 minutes of each episode, this idea of looking at the scriptures together and having maybe a launching point and if that's all that we're providing is to bring some good conversation forward about what the Scriptures are telling us both about what it means its original context and how we might apply it today. I think that's like immensely valuable. So I like to think that maybe somebody out there is perhaps using this as a springboard for getting others together brothers, sisters who love one another who really want to understand what it means to follow closely after Lord Jesus Christ and to use this as a resource. So I would I affirm and want to kind of compound what you just said there is there's a tendency if you're like me to enjoy a podcast and to enjoy your thoughts in your own mind only, but i guess i'm saying is be a little bit brave and maybe push it out. Do this with somebody else talk about this thing and because we've been going through the Book in these little puppies, it's a great way to kind of get a bite sized portion of the Scripture. And then to have that set aside for you to evaluate, to think upon to pray over to meditate on, and then to really process together. And this in particular seems so timely to me because we really need to depend upon God to work deliverance for us, and wait for him to redeem our troubles. Yeah, I think every generation feels like it's as bad as it's ever been. And this is the most trouble we can possibly conceive of. And if we give an intellectual assent to the idea of God, his Savior, that our lives will be marked not only by looking to God, but also looking for God. And I found that I need to look for God, I need to know that he is alive and well and working in that every day, the manner in which I behave the way in which I speak to people. The manner in which I complete my work reflects that reality. Yeah, that must be done in community. And so I hope that maybe somebody will get together over these silly little podcasts. And you know, during that first initial time when we're talking about affirmations, now they can just like look and make fun of us left to each other. And then maybe after that, they'll be something in it in which they can ponder and say, yeah, let's talk about this. Let's get after it. I completely disagree with what Jesse said there, or Tony is the smartest person I've ever heard speak about Micah, and we should, you know, consider what he has to say. But let me let me I want to wrap it up with this. If this is okay, I want to record another piece of Scripture. And it's because I've been so moved by what God has written through the pen of Micah, and especially in the context of a global climate, which seems to be increasingly combative. And if you live in the United States, especially in a year where we're approaching an election, which seems to be particularly vitriolic, where everybody wants to argue against everybody else, everybody wants to have a label and then to use that label to either slander or divide. I think of this verse from job 14, seven through nine. For there is hope for a tree if it be cut down that it was sprout again, and then it shoots will not cease. Though its roots grow old in the earth and its stump die in the soil, yet the scent of water, it will bud and put out branches like a young plant. And really that's been my prayer for the church for myself for you for this podcast that even when we feel like all hope is lost, we know that it's actually not that desperate. Because God delights in the darkest of situations to bring in his light. It's in fact, what makes him look so much more glorious. That when everything seems like it's falling apart, we need the one person the one who is able to course correct to bring the pieces together to heal and to rejuvenate and to revitalize and our God is the only one who can do that. And so I was really moved in our conversation and and looking at this perk up to be reminded that man, isn't it good to have a your way as our God?
Tony Arsenal 52:55
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't get any better than that does
Jesse Schwamb 52:58
no, it does not Doesn't. This is the time in the podcast where I say something about running through a wall, but I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. I know people want me to say it. You kind of just said it. I know. Yeah.
Tony Arsenal 53:11
That's like when you say like, I'm not even gonna comment on this post, but this is just so dumb.
Jesse Schwamb 53:17
But here's the thing.
Tony Arsenal 53:18
I'm gonna dignify that with a response.
Jesse Schwamb 53:23
That's like, I know I'm literally doing the thing I'm gonna complain about right now. But that's like, kind of our style is like, always like we're nobody's ever said like Tony and Jesse are people have incredible brevity. That's really been set of us.
Tony Arsenal 53:37
I don't think anyone's ever said that of me.
Jesse Schwamb 53:39
No, nor of me either. Like that's that's kind of our style actually. Like people at work with like, my written form stuff. I've actually said to me, like, in a moment of like, pure candor, like, well, you actually are not want for words. I'm like, really? Like, Is it that bad? It was just like a statement of facts like, Well, we know like, it's gonna be really long winded with you. So I'm like, Okay, fine. I expect That I receive it. I'm not gonna change.
Tony Arsenal 54:02
Yeah. Why say something in two words when you can say it in 10 words.
Jesse Schwamb 54:08
The Puritans are on my side.
Tony Arsenal 54:10
Exactly. Well, Jesse. Thanks again for to talk it through Michael with me. No till next time. Honor everyone.
Jesse Schwamb 54:18
Love the Brotherhood.