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Tony and Jesse tackle the beginning of chapter 2 in the book of Micah.

Jesse Schwamb 0:10
Welcome to Episode 152 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony and we are proud members of the Society of Reformed Podcasters.

Hey, brother!

Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey, brother! Hey, that was like a very singsong the melodic Hey, brother. You just dropped in there.

Tony Arsenal 0:37
Yeah, I actually there's this YouTube channel that I watch. That's like, like Harry Potter video game. Movie theories. It's like super nerdy. But they also use a brother as it's like two brothers. And they use Hey, brother, as they're, like, intro and they are always like, Hey, brother. So I just I just, I guess I just stole their intro on accident.

Jesse Schwamb 1:00
I think what I'd like to say here is that you are a renaissance man, when it comes to movies and video games. I never know what you're going to say you've watched or seen or what resources you use.

Tony Arsenal 1:12
I watch a lot of stuff on YouTube. There's no commentary with that. I just watch a lot of stuff.

Jesse Schwamb 1:19
Good. Good, because I didn't have any.

Tony Arsenal 1:21
Yeah. Yeah. How are you doing?

Jesse Schwamb 1:24
I'm doing great. I'm looking forward to as always starting with a little affirmation and a little bit of a denial.

Tony Arsenal 1:31
Nice. Why don't you go first.

Jesse Schwamb 1:34
Okay, so this is something that I don't think is ever happened before. I'm actually going to amalgamate my affirmations and denials, I want to affirm with something so then I can immediately deny against it.

Tony Arsenal 1:46
Let's do it was expecting more spots, but you can't be taking a swig of what I'm drinking. So I was a little taken off guard,

Jesse Schwamb 1:55
my apologies. So So here's what I want to affirm with. And then I think it might be coming clear as to why I'm also subsequently denying against it. I recently came across this Twitter account, that is the theological equivalent to driving by a train wreck and not being able to look away. So maybe you're familiar with it. The Twitter handle is at fake sermon.

Tony Arsenal 2:21
Oh, I haven't seen this.

Jesse Schwamb 2:23
And it is real video accounts. It's actually video clips of independent fundamentalist Baptist preachers,

Tony Arsenal 2:31
Oh, man.

Jesse Schwamb 2:32
And it is awful, which is why I want to deny against it. So I'm doing a bit because I found it this past week. And then I'll be honest, I spend an inordinate amount of time scrolling through and watching these clips, because they're just horrendous. And each one you're kind of like, I can't get worse than this. And then the next one is like, even worse. So you could waste a lot of time doing this. And I think it's worth looking at. But I haven't gone to the extent where I'm following this again, only because I'm just afraid of any word association man with it. But it is downright horrendous. And clearly, like whoever's putting this together, is putting them together in such a way that they're highlighting just how crazy this is. It's not just the theology is absolutely crazy that there's a lot of in there, that's just downright awful. But the things that really got me where there are several clips of especially pastor Jim Stonebridge where he's just absolutely breeding his congregation. Yeah, it's like whenever reminding me if I want to give like a really actual strong affirmation is to go We'll go back and look at that wonderful book reform preaching by Joel beaky. Like everything that's happening in this Twitter account is the exact opposite of everything we are looking at together in reform preaching. So at the same time, I'm going to say I affirm it, you should go out and take a look at it. But of course, I deny against everything that is happening in these clips. Wow.

Tony Arsenal 3:54
Yeah, there's some crazy stuff out there in the IFB world. I think like, like Steven Anderson is the most famous, independent, fundamentalist Baptist. But like, he's not really all that unique, except in the fact that he's unique, that he actually has a little bit of like, savvy and how he promotes his material. And he he's like, actually got a little bit of theological acumen, which is actually a little bit scary that he, I mean, he knows Greek. He's actually pretty good at Greek. But there's a lot of weird stuff out there. He's not unique in that, like, he'll get up on his pulpit and like scream at his people. Which I'm not opposed to like a pastor berating and chastising his congregation when it's appropriate. But it seems like that's like the default mode for some of these ISP guys.

Jesse Schwamb 4:42
Oh, it's it's style. And so here's what's fascinating about this particular account would actually draw me to it and maybe want to give the recommendation to the information is that there's not a single and I scroll through like, I'm talking like, dozens embarrassed to say how many videos I watched on this. They're just like little clips about two minutes long. Yeah. Not a single one of him. So we're talking about guys that like I haven't actually seen in any kind of detail. Yeah, actually, the braiding is of like a crazy level. And it's not just like braiding on theological grounds. There's one clip and it's probably somewhere near the top, it's of Jim Stan bridge. And somebody in the congregation was clearly not paying attention or yonder something. Yeah, descended from the pulpit, and then went on this tirade, including calling out one of the people who's right in front of him saying that he's that person is one of the sorry, his church members he has, he's not even worth 15 cents. He says, Now give me a hug. Give me a little love, you know that I love you. It's just insane.

Tony Arsenal 5:33
That that's I mean, on one level, it's all it's like funny, but it's not like that's, that's straight up spiritual abuse, like that's a straight up, spiritually abusive situation. And like if that person decided that he wanted to leave, like he would be chastised and would be isolated from all of his former church associates, because there's this gang mentality that happens in these churches where if you decide to leave, then every when gets poisoned against you, whether you leave, I've heard of instances, even where people just move out of the area. And if they don't, if they don't invest the time to drive, you know, several hours to get there every Sunday, then they're seen as like these people who've abandoned the faith, even if they even if they Trent you know, they find membership in another event, independent fundamentalist Baptist Church, or in you know, heaven forbid, like an evangelical church, they still get paraded like they've abandoned the faith just because they moved out of the area for whatever reason. So it's, it's a pretty, it's a pretty scary kind of situation that you have going.

Jesse Schwamb 6:35
And I don't want to paint with too broad a brush here. This is just what's on the account. And I just found it really fascinating. It really is like a train wreck that I could not look away from I just couldn't believe some of the things that were being said, from the pulpit, especially to people or about people. And it seemed to me like in this you know, this like, there's a lot that happens in the AFP where there's this mistaken is of zealousness for truth and proper pastoral. Yeah, it's just really convoluted and crazy and wild. So if you're looking to like blow a good, you know, like 20 minutes on some things, or just put down your phone and be like, Whoa, what did I just watch? Yes, the the Twitter handle you want to look up is at fig sermon. So go check it out.

Tony Arsenal 7:17
Yeah, I think I would probably rather watch the grass grow than to spend my time watching IFB train wreck sermons. But that is,

Jesse Schwamb 7:30
once you start, I was just sucked in. I just could not because everybody hears about this stuff. But these are, again, like many of these are like a well produced clips in the sense that like, clearly there's a lot of money. Yeah, a lot of these churches. And that what the sermon that's being put on, it's being presented. There's me and there's just so many, we should turn this into a podcast. There's one as well, where I think it might be Jim Stonebridge, something happens with the dude who's running like the audio video. And he goes on a rant about how that guy is trying to promote his own kingdom in the video room. And, like, some of it is absolutely almost laughable. So it just made me sad for people in the sense that like, we all need good pastors. And you and I are like pro pastor all the time, like will fly that flag forever. Yeah. And I just was drawn back into like, man, Dr. Becky's got it right when we've been talking about reform preaching, and what really that means and there's so much that's wrong here. But there's so much that's wrong, and so many churches. And so, I don't know, maybe this is just make you feel really good about your pastor.

Tony Arsenal 8:36
Yeah, maybe. I'm not sure how we transition to my affirmation and denial. So I'm just gonna go because I think we really get off of this. I'm affirming a new podcast called the steady anchor podcast. Speaking of Twitter, there's a guy on Twitter who goes by the handle 1689 gang, and he does a lot of memes and stuff. And he has some new podcast called the steady anchor podcast. And it's exceptional. I mean, I think it's really good. You know, I've said in the past that the according to Christ podcast was easily the best reformed Baptist. And I mean, like confessional reformed Baptist podcasts on the internet. And so it was a shame when it went off the air even though is for very good reasons. There's no no harm, no foul there. But there wasn't really much that could fill that gap. But I think the steady anchor podcast has the potential to be kind of that new 1689 perspective reform podcast. Check it out, steady anchor podcast, you can get it on, you know, SoundCloud, but you gain it anywhere else podcasts are found iTunes, podcasters, whatever. It's a really good. It's a young guy. I think he's like 20, or 21 years old. He's in Bible College. But he's a really crisp thinker that I actually think is probably more mature. If you if you just listened to them. You wouldn't think this is a 20 year old guy, you would you would think this is someone who has a lot more experience under his belt in life, but also just in doing theology. He's very articulate, very well spoken, very thoughtful about what he says. So check it out. I think there's five or six episodes out. It's really, really good. Have you heard of this podcast yet? That's high praise.

Jesse Schwamb 10:15
Yeah. Only because you sent it to me, but I haven't actually had a chance to listen to yet. So that is definitely going to be on my playlist for this week that, you know, you had me at 1689.

Tony Arsenal 10:24
So yeah, it's great.

Jesse Schwamb 10:26
I'm right. All in there. Actually. I feel like that was a great segue, because that reforms, haha, that reforms, my affirmation that involved Word Baptist, so I appreciate that. Turn it around.

Tony Arsenal 10:36
Yeah. I also have a denial that is sort of an amalgamation of an affirmation, too. So we're both going to play this game a little bit. So have you heard about what's going on with Benny Hinn at all? Yes. So this is a combination affirmation and denial, in that I want to affirm the people who are being cautiously optimistic about this. For those who haven't heard Benny Hinn, which we all know is a prosperity gospel preacher. He's got some really squarely weird theological things with the Trinity. He just in general is is not the kind of person that we want to emulate. And I actually don't think we're on bad grounds to say that he's not even a member of the Christian faith with some of the stuff that he teaches and pedals. But he recently on in a sermon that he had broadcast basically said that, like he's abandoning the prosperity gospel, he said things like, you know, he felt as though he was profiting off the gospel. He was selling the gospel. He was I think he used the language of corrupting the gospel. So there are those who are cautiously optimistic, which I think like his nephew Kosti Him, who was wrapped up in the prosperity gospel, and now has become an evangelical who preaches the real gospel. He has sort of reformed leanings, he kind of said, really hope that this is the beginning of a long, a long process of repentance, in which my uncle Benny will ultimately embrace the gospel and will repent of his many sins, but he's being cautiously optimistic. So that's my affirmation is the people who are recognizing that that what seems to be happening is at the very least, Benny Hinn is experiencing some sort of common operation of the Holy Spirit, in that he is responding to the scriptures and the gospel in at least apparent repentance. Now, where where the denial comes in, is there are those who seemingly refuse to even acknowledge the possibility that the Holy Spirit is doing something in this. So I've seen people that have basically said, well, there's no way that Benny Hinn is ever going to accept the gospel. So all of you are just deceived into thinking he's repenting. So I don't think that we are at a point with what he said, where we should say a while he's definitely a repentant Christian. But I think that we have to look at, you know, I was doing an episode on the outward call the external call of the gospel, for reform standard. And we have to look at it and say that there are those who are outwardly called, who will experience some common operations of the gospel, but they are collaboration is the Holy Spirit. But they neglect the grace that's being offered to them. We should be praying that Benny Hinn will not neglect the grace that's being offered to him through the hour call the gospel, and that these common operations of the Holy Spirit will culminate in an effectual call to repent and trust the gospel. So for those who are being overly cynical, I think cautious optimism is warranted, maybe heavy on the caution and maybe a little less heavy on the optimism. But I think that this really cynical assumption that the Holy Spirit is not working right now. I don't think it's warranted and I don't think confessional that we're really allowed to go there.

Jesse Schwamb 13:52
That's good to know. I think I ended that is exactly right on. There's sometimes this tendency where we focus so much on what's been done the past who we think we understand the person to be when we do that we as our foreign people really betray the fact that we're not giving God his full weight of Providence and sovereignty over every situation. And in fact, yeah, God delights to change hearts into regenerates. And that change always and often comes as a surprise to those who would presume that some person is so wayward, or they're beyond help. That's exactly the kind of place where God steps in that. That's exactly the kind of situation where he displaces power. Because in truth, we were all that person. Yeah, no matter where you kind of try to draw the line, we were all that person that was beyond help.

Tony Arsenal 14:35
Yeah, yeah, that's a good word. So speaking of people that need help, we're getting into mica, again this week.

Jesse Schwamb 14:46
So good that that is a top shelf segues that I've really come to appreciate, admire and expect in conversation on this podcast.

Tony Arsenal 14:57
Yeah, well, you know, I try. I guess that's very hard, but I try.

Jesse Schwamb 15:03
No, that was, I mean, imagine if we tried, we just be crushing how we move from one subject to the next. But you're right, we are in chapter two of Micah, we've made our way. And we're going to take a look at the first five verses of that chapter tonight.

Tony Arsenal 15:16
So Jesse, can you give us just a little bit of recap of where we've been with Michael, because some people may be coming into this, and this is their first episode of micro casts with us. So can you give us just a little recap of chapter one kind of what we what we talked about what we learned and how that leads into where we are,

Jesse Schwamb 15:33
is that we're talking about now are calling it now is micro cast.

Tony Arsenal 15:35
Yeah, Mike and cast. Everything is something cast, systematic cast, atonement cast, eschatology cast, reform preaching cast. And now we've got Micah cast,

Jesse Schwamb 15:46
super, super original. So let me give like a really high view, you can throw in some additional details that I missed. So we spoke a little bit about, of course, Mike, his background, but where he came from the he was a rural dude, they was outside the urban environment that God called him really to deliver these prophecies against Jerusalem. And so we spoke at length, especially last week, about how the writing in particular is expressing and showing God's sovereignty over these places that God is showing, he's going to deliver judgment deliver Jerusalem over into their captors. So we have here this condemnation against God's people, especially those who should know better about how to lead the people. And they've strayed so far from the Lord that he's going to bring them back to him essentially, by way of this exile. So there's a little bit of irony there. And so we spoke about how this destruction is going to be both physical and spiritual in the sense that really, there is a decay that he refers to that's happening in the culture of the people. And that decay is principally spiritual. And it's that very decay, which is led to the delivery of this philosophy, philosophy, this prophecy through my God, by the way, the Holy Spirit's and will ultimately lead to their exile in their punishment.

Tony Arsenal 16:56
Yeah, that's a really good summary. And one of the things that we commented on last week, and during the first week of mica cast, we talked about how, although the entire nation of Israel was guilty of sin, that Micah really paints this picture, that it's really the elite centers of power, right, centered in in some area in an in Jerusalem, that that really was the origin point of the sin that Mike is pointing out. Now that doesn't, it doesn't excuse the common person or the the, the people of the land up from their sin. But Micah is really drilling in on the fact that the the sin that is being judged, really started with kind of the high members of society. And that's important for today's episode. And then we talked about how Micah uses the language of a plague, to talk about how this, this plague or this wound has finally reached the Gates of Jerusalem. So there's kind of a dual thing going on where this the sincerity arcs in Jerusalem, it starts in some area and the capital of some area and expands outward, but also, it's finally come to the point where the plague is closing in on Jerusalem. And so when we get to today's today's passage, he's really focusing on what exactly and what particularly the sin that he's referring to was. So we talked about how, you know, there's an there's a latent idolatry that's present in Israel and Judah at this time. And the the things that he points out in this, this perfect up here, demonstrate what the idolatry was. It wasn't necessarily although this was happening, but it wasn't necessarily that they were bowing down and worshiping other gods. What it is, in large part is the way that their the elites of the society are treating those who rather than rather than shepherd and protect, as would be expected of them. They were taking advantage of. So we'll, we'll go into the chapter here, and we'll talk about it versus diverse but but that's I think that's a good way to kind of preface this section.

Jesse Schwamb 19:04
Yeah, that's right on there's there's a lot that's happening here. Like we keep saying that is so reminiscent of modern times. And we actually, as you're saying, I'm thinking of my affirmation and denial at the same time, right? There's something to be said, for understanding those who are privileged and over privileged, especially within the church themselves and what their responsibilities are. But this really is something that is going to be I think, particularly applicable to every Christian, who is listening to this. And certainly, I'm sure one of the reasons why the Holy Spirit included in his holy scriptures, so yeah, why don't we get to it? How about I read, since it's just five verses, let me read the first five verses if we can just get after it has us on?

Tony Arsenal 19:42
Let's do it. Alright,

Jesse Schwamb 19:44
so beginning in chapter two verses one through five on Micah well, to those who devise a wickedness and work evil on their beds, when morning, Dawn's they perform it, because it is in their power of their hand, they covet fields and seize them and houses and take them away, and they oppress them man in his house, a man and his inheritance. Therefore, this says the LORD, behold, against this family, I am devising disaster from which you cannot remove your necks, and you shall not walk heartily for OB a time of disaster. In that day, they shall take up a top song against you and moan bitterly and say, we are utterly ruined, he changes the portion of my people, how he removes it far from me to an apostate, here lots are fields, therefore, you will have none to cast the line by lot in the assembly of the Lord.

Tony Arsenal 20:34
Yeah, so this section, as I said, it really drills down on what the particular sin of the elites of Jerusalem specifically, were doing. And so in order to understand this, we really have to understand kind of the history of Israel and, and the laws that God had established for the inherited land. And so some of this stuff seems weird, to our sort of 20th century capitalists minds. And I don't say that to sort of like paint capitalism as a bad system. I think given all of all of the different factors in the world, capitalism is probably the best we're going to do right now. But ancient Israel definitely was not a capitalist system in a pure sense. And the reason for that is that a person's property and wealth was not directly tied to their production. So a person could be, it could have a really bad production in terms of their their family farm and their their ancestral allotment, and lose their farm. And then at least as far as God's laws concerned, every seven years that land would be restored back to them. So rather than rather than possess the land, by way of sort of capitalistic impulses of earning money, and and retaining the land, because you are productive on it, this land is granted to them by God, which, in a certain sense, just points to the fact that our heavenly inheritance is not by our own works. It's not by our own production. But it's a grant that's given to us by God, with no expectations of production in terms of earning the right to stay on that land. And so right, what was happening now in Jerusalem, is actually that the elite of Jerusalem, were turning it into this capitalistic impulse, where they were seizing opportunities to take this land away from the rightful owners to take it away from those who had a god given inheritance of particular land allotments. And to take it from them, opportunistically, and that that's really the sin that Micah is narrowing in on is this greed driven opportunistic seizing of an ancestral lands, and the oppression of the poor on those lands.

Jesse Schwamb 22:54
Right. Yeah, I like what you said there, because I think what we need to really appreciate is the reason for the law, because this wasn't just some kind of economic convention so that God could redistribute wealth over a period of time, so as to, let's say, make society equal or prevent them from being a disparity between those who are really rich and those who are really poor, which is, like you said, I think we're our 20th century kind of capitalistic minds that proclivities to think in that direction was great, because it's this some type of great equality, and God is showing his graciousness through that equality. And that's really not at all because God is by delivering this prophecy through Mike are really concerned, I think principally concerned about the misuse of status to perpetuate oppression, which gets manifested in all of this taking of resource, right. So, like you said, family's property, or their inheritance, which is the word that Michael uses here was permanent, it was like a sacred trust from God. And that goes all the way back to Leviticus 15. So actually pulled up this verse, because I think this is really helpful based on what you just said. So this is how it reads, and you shall consecrate the 50th year, proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants, it shall be a Jubilee for you, when each of you shall return to his property. And each of you shall return to his clan. So what's interesting to me here is like this is coming after like the full development, the full scope, breadth and scope of the laws being presented here. And the rules for inheritance of land. And this is really crazy given like the culture there, notably, include women. And that's explained after that whole account of Zelda had had daughters come forward, and they don't have a son. And they're worried that because he doesn't have a son, they're going to lose all of their inheritance, right. And so in bringing forward these laws, what God is doing that's incredible, like you said, as he's affirming that family and tribal legacy should be protected. And this prohibition against permanent transfer of land from one family to another, are rooted specifically in God's ultimate ownership of the Promised Land. And the fact that he is interested to all his people as a good and fit and permanent possession to be enjoyed. So in other words, like the land is not simply private property that's to be transferred on the basis of human convention agreement. It actually symbolizes life with God, this to just like marriage is an incredible shadow. And it's so serious that he inculcates this economic system with this idea that not only everything has to go back, but something is I just want to set everything back to where it was, is because it belongs to me. And it is a good gift to you, right? And so because of that, it will be a constant reminder that everything that you have, like you said, is not something that you've earned, like just like when the Israelites came to the promised land, you're gonna get to hang out in land that is not you're going to get to chill and houses you know about not build, you gonna get to drink wine, which sounds I'm sure it was delicious, that you did not have to grow or press and all this because of a good and gracious God. And so right when we have these people in Israel of power, who should be protecting, like I said, the most vulnerable, when instead what they're doing is participating in this calculated covered business. It's not just theft, it's actually going on against everything that God has laid out, to explain, and to give us a shadow for his good graciousness, both temporarily speaking, but also eschatological speaking. So this is a major major, not just infringement, or infraction, but as a major breaking of the law of God. And I would say like an abuse of essentially wisdom represented in this leadership as understand the covenant promise of God.

Tony Arsenal 26:24
Yeah, yeah, the image that, that I get when I think about this is if you imagine a man who has has two children, and one of the children for whatever reason, the father has decided to give them a particular toy. And and so he gives this toy and says, will say the first one's name is Johnny says, john, this toy I'm giving to you, this is your toy, it's yours to do whatever you want with him. And so then at some point, this father goes into the other room and the second son, let's just call them Tim, Tim takes the toy away from john, and wants to play with it. When the father comes back in the room, he says, none of this, this belongs to john. So he gives that toy back to back to john. And he goes back out of the room. And even if john at some point said, I'm going to let him play with this, when the father comes back into the room, he says, No, no, this is John's toy. And he restores it back to john, that was the image, more or less, that was being portrayed in the way that this land, restoration of the land promise was, is that the land was restored back to who it was given to, even if, for lawful purposes, it was granted to someone else for a time, right? You may have, you may have a situation where you don't, you know, a family doesn't have any sons. And so they have no one to work the land. And so they sell the land, or they deed the land over to someone who can work it and make it productive for the time. But at a certain point, it's restored back to its ancestral holdings, because that is who the Lord gave it to. And that goes back to Joshua, where we have Joshua and the inheritance of the land is drawn by lot. That's because that's, that's showing us that who who ends up in particular parts of the land, and how much land is allotted to each tribe, and to each family is determined by the will of the Holy Spirit. That's the significance of drawing lots in the Old Testament is this is how we know what God's will is. And so the fact that Benjamin gets this tiny portion of portion of land, and you know, Dan gets this land up by the sea and Naftali gets this land over here, whatever. That's indicated by the Holy Spirit, because that's the Lord's will. And so when these rulers in Jerusalem, or this elite in Jerusalem, decide to seize the land that they covet jealously, when they seize the land, they're operating in direct opposition to the expressed will of God. And it's not just like a vague sense of the will of God, right? Sometimes we, we use, why I'm operating against the will of the Lord, we use that in this weird sort of like, I think this isn't the right thing to do. But I'm going to do it. And even though I know it's against the will of the Lord, this is something different entirely because this is codified, expressed, written law for these people, that it's not unclear that they're not supposed to do this.

Jesse Schwamb 29:20
Right. And there's something unique about this, because I just am more I really just marvel at how brilliant God is. He uses a system, which is so intertwined with who we are, in transcends cultural, and relationships and gender, by going into the economic system and using that as a way in which he can remind his people that there's a certain characteristic of himself that is generous and loving it and kind and here is how I have it displayed. Like you said, what's interesting to me is that the Jubilee Year did not preclude overhead Israelites, from selling land selling their land for was any personal preference actually like it? It was, it obviously had to be. It was codified by way of the law of normal transactional business, right. But the purchase price, the compensation was always predicated on the number of years until it was restored. So it was almost like in your example, of having these two children, how long can one child play with the other child's toy? Well, until the time at which the parent comes in and restores it, until that known time and so compensation was always based on that. So all of life, even the transactions, and again, we're talking about big decisions, the biggest transactions, we often participate in our own lives, at least in the Western world are buying large things like cars, or houses, or getting education, all those things would have been centered on this idea of the year of jubilee, right. And so I see something that's really interesting in verses one and two, that I think points us toward total depravity. And I want to throw this out to you. Because when I read, what are those devices of wickedness, and evil on their beds, it's very clear that we're talking about here is, you know, the place where you should be chilling and relaxing the most, the place where you're dreaming of things, the place where you're brainstorming, what they're doing is they're using that time to devise these wicked schemes, right? I'm finding ways to take the property. And again, we have no, no, what's clear here is that this taking of property is not the compensation that we hear in the Old Testament elsewhere about the proper way of compensating somebody for the user and prior to Jubilee. So it's clear that this is absolutely theft, it's coming in and taking this line from somebody else without recourse. And so what's interesting to me when I read those verses is I see that the sin begins when the will consents to it. And that's very much like what Jesus said. So the sin begins when the Wilkinsons to it that's this dreaming, on the bed, this working of the evil on their beds, but it's expressed in action according to the ability of the individual, right. And so here you have this will that is conceived in the mind in the bed during a brainstorming session, so to speak, or before sleep. And because these individuals are particularly powerful, because they are high in their own society, they can express that action in a unique way that's according to their own ability. And so what that makes me think of is that we all will often have these kinds of calculated covered business, and we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that we're particularly holy merely because we cannot act upon them. This is the kind of question of the statement like does absolute power corrupts absolutely. And so you know, without being divorced from God without his center without his regeneration, we always tend in that direction. But our natural proclivity is to have a world that can sense toward sin. But I think sometimes it God's graciousness, we are prevented from carrying that out, even though we're totally depraved, because we lack the actual ability and that to his his graciousness.

Tony Arsenal 32:43
Yeah, yeah, you know, Calvin, in his commentary makes the point that the very concept of rest, right, which is sort of supremely expressed in this the Sabbath command, that were to rest one day and seven, to glorify and worship the Lord, but also to rest and recover and recuperate from our week of labor. That principle, although it's codified specifically in this one in seven principle, it still extends to the fact that we're to rest on a daily pattern as well. So So Calvin makes the point that this rest is given to man, basically, as a way to enjoy the fruit of their labor. And these people that the profit is, is convicting against, rather than, rather than enjoy the rest that they've earned by their labor, the rest that's granted to them as a blessing by God as a response or a result of their labor. They use that time when they should be resting in their beds, to devise wickedness. So it's not just that they're scheming, right, there's a certain element of like, there's a it's like, they're kind of the smarmy people who are like, thinking of evil ways, you know, like, you picture that guy in their hand, like, they're just rubbing their hands together, trying to figure out the next, the next thing they can steal from someone, there was that stash, right? There's that element of it, that that's, that's part of what the prophet is getting at here. But more so than that, this place that's supposed to be a place of peace and arrest has now become a place where they, where they devise wickedness, and work evil on their beds. So there's, there's this there's an intentionality to the way that's phrased to make it. You know, the bed is supposed to be this quiet place of rest and meditation. And rather than meditate on God's law, they're meditating on ways to do evil. And then this is this is where I think what you said is so insightful about this reflecting total depravity is that the sin is conceived in the heart, and then it's executed in Act. So the will starts to ruminate on sin, before it actually operates in some sort of our to action. And so as they're meditating on this evil in their beds, they're working evil, they're devising iniquity in their beds in the morning, they've been thinking about this and working on it all night, they get up, and they have the ability to accomplish the sin. And so they do it. And so I think for us that that, that helps us to understand, how do we how do we war against that? How do we respond to that? Well, rather than meditate and devise wickedness on our beds, or you could say, in our hearts, and during idleness, we should be meditating on the things of the Spirit. Because just as the evil that was devised on their beds, is worked out in the dawn by their hands. If we meditate on God's word, we meditate on God's Word in that those moments of rest, that will work itself out in our actions in the same way that the evil works itself out in the actions of these men.

Jesse Schwamb 35:50
Right? Cut to like the Apostle Paul being like, Yo, I told you take every thought captive. Like that's basically what we're talking about here, this idea that we ought to meditate, whatever is whatever is wholly whatever's right. Just like think about those things, right. And that's a good word of encouragement to us. Because who hasn't like gone to bed after a hard day, in a conversation where you wished you had said something or hadn't thought about some kind of biting thing that you could said, and then you're devising some kind of way, even if it's just in the back your mind, we're thinking, I know, I'm not going to really do this. Right. There's something that sometimes can feel so satisfying, about entertaining those thoughts. And this is where I think we really get to see that this is not just Micah saying, Hey, listen, guys, you've gone off the track a little bit like you've been a little bit disobedient, what he's saying is, you've taken everything that's good that God has given you including this idea of rest, and you perverted it. This is the corruption that's the plague. This is a disease. It's Yeah, so ubiquitous, it's so deeply settled into everything you do, it's in that mirror of your bones, that you've actually not just been disobedient, but you've gone against purposefully, it's gone against everything good that God has established. So it's like a crazy level. And what I find is really awesome. Because I'm just growing to appreciate Mike as a dude that can use amazing turn of phrase again, through the power of the Holy Spirit. And there's another word play in this chapter. Are these five verses rather, where it's between the phrase who divides wickedness, and I am devising disaster? Yeah. Which apparently in Hebrew are basically virtually identical expressions? Yeah. So you have this base like these people think they're, you know, able to devise wickedness in such a way where they can take advantage of their power and the prestige, and they will not be held accountable. And here's the one who's coming to devise disaster in a way that sounds exactly like what they're thinking they're doing to devise wickedness that everything will be made, right. And he uses the language to emphasize that point, which is just amazing.

Tony Arsenal 37:45
Yeah, yeah. And you know, there's a, there's a certain element of this to where he starts out by talking about beyond the wordplay, which is already pretty awesome. He starts out by talking about these, these people who are positions of power. And they use this positions of power in order to oppress those that they can. And then he flips over. And in verse three, he says, I will against this family, I'm devising disaster. There's that wordplay. And he says, you cannot remove it from your next he says you will not walk heartily, for it will be a time of disaster. So we have this tendency to sort of think about the wicked, as though they have power, they have ability, they have authority, they have the the ability to sort of walk with their heads high. But what God is saying here is that you'll no longer walk with your head high, because I'm gonna, I'm going to come down hard on you, and you're not going to be get out, you're not going to get out from underneath them. And I think that's something for us to remember to as we look around at our world, right, we think about the injustice that we see. And we should remember that like, there are those who seem to walk with their heads high, but either in this little for the next, they're not going to be able to walk with their heads high forever unless they turn to Jesus.

Jesse Schwamb 39:06
Right. That's great. They're in speak. I'm glad you brought that up. This is actually super great segue You are the champion of segues. Because what is crazy is that there is within all of Microsoft far, there's been like this Confluence, or containerized. And maybe it's a better way of saying it where we're seeing metaphors use other places in the Old Testament, but they're being used slightly differently here, but it being flipped around somewhat. So we get to verse three, and four, basically get this pattern where all sinners devise wickedness, God devices, judgment, that's how this works out. And you get the symbolism of lines, three, or sorry, verses three, and then for a, and we're coming into this idea of this yoke. So we get you know, of course, there's like the frequent metaphor of the yoke of subjugation and servitude. It's like the same thing that's used in speaking of Nebuchadnezzar in Jeremiah, right. But this imagery of breaking the yoke is more being used here like throwing off you always authority. It's like a foreshadowing of the yoke of Christ. But here the thought is not of his beneficence rule, but of his judgment, right. And so instead of you know, we often forget that when Jesus says, My yoke is easy, the yoke was a tool of leverage that allows you to enact more forcing an object or to perform better or to do more work that you might be able to do otherwise by yourself. And here's being used in the opposite direction, so to speak. And I love what Calvin says, I'm just gonna steal this right from his commentary. He says, they who refused to obey God, when he acquires from them a voluntary service will link be drawn by force, not to undergo the yoke, but the burden which will altogether overwhelm them. In other words, the yoke is the thing that God gives us as His blessing through his power to forgo and to go through this process, almost like when God leads us to it, he will lead us through it here. What he's basically saying is the yoke is being taken away, you're actually breaking the good yoke that God has given you by way of his rules. And in so doing, you're about to be the full weight of my wrath that you will most absolutely underwhelm you, your neck will not be able, again, here's the neck speaking of yoke, beautiful reference again, you will not be able to get out from underneath it, and you will absolutely crush it you will beg for the yoke in that day.

Tony Arsenal 41:15
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think it It bears saying at this point to that. One of the major themes of the Minor Prophets, I didn't even mean that to be like a clever turn of phrase, but sort of the album title, one of the major themes of the Minor Prophets, that would be like a great court, like a great class title for like a seminary course. Anyway, one of the themes is what used to be called social justice. But that term has been so co opted and change that it doesn't even feel right to call it that anymore. And so sometimes people are quick to point at passages like this, where the elites of society are removed from their position, and they're put under the yoke of disaster, because they've stolen in the land of kind of the peasants. And it's painted as this sort of, like, wealthy versus the oppressed. But the reality of it is, is that justice in Micah, is not defined by some external standard of equality or distributive justice, which is kind of the socialist impulse. It's, it's defined by adherence to God's law, so that the the elite that are being condemned here by Nika by Micah, are not condemned, because they have claimed the land of the oppressed. They're being condemned, because they've disregarded God's law for how the land is to be taken and restored to the people. So as you said earlier, there's lots of laws about how a person could buy the land from someone who is not able to sustain it themselves. So there's nothing intrinsically opposed to God's law to buy, you know, for someone from the tribe of Rubin to buy land from someone from the tribe of Simeon, for example, there's nothing opposed to that in the law. But what is opposed to in the law is the failure to do that, according to God's standards, right? The failure to do that in a way that is Justin righteous, to restore that land back to the person in the year of jubilee, to seek to, for one person in a tribe to seek to purchase the land of their brother, in order to keep it within the tribe. That is something that's in the law. And that is what's being spoken against here. It's not some general idea of oppression. It's not this, this Neo Marxist idea of those who have advantage oppressing those who are somehow disadvantaged. So we have to be really intentional when we go through the Minor Prophets, and especially in passages like this, to understand that this is really about blasphemy and idolatry, right? That's the sin that's here. Yes, it's a sin to take the oppressed land, from the people that you're oppressing. But more so it's a sin against the Lord of the universe to disregard His will for how how this land is to be allocated and attributed, and to be used by the people. So it's important for us to just say that that, although Yes, we would affirm that this is a matter of justice, Justice has to be defined, especially, I mean, I'm not a theist. So I understand that in other contexts, Justice appears in a different form than what we see in the civil and ceremonial laws of the Old Testament. But when we're talking about an Old Testament passage like this, where the people do live under the theocracy of Israel, we have to understand that justice here is defined by God's civil law in reference to the land.

Jesse Schwamb 44:48
This is just another great example of how intent proceeds content writing to do a little bit of heavy lifting and parse out some of this stuff. So we understand what the underpinnings are of the prophecy that's coming going forward. You know, this, to me is I think what happens here is we just get caught up in the details. And I'm neither at the optimist nor a dispensation list. And it's possible that what I'm about to say is going to sound like both of those things. And I don't mean it, too. So that's my, my caveat. But this, to me is always like the example of when you're young, and your parents are teaching you as a young child that you should eat vegetables, because they just want you to be healthier, and to eat balanced things that you develop properly. And so because of that, they create rules, like you need to eat your own broccoli, or you need to belong to the clean plate club, or if you don't eat your broccoli, that's fine. But you can't eat anything else, and you have to get up and leave the table and go to bed. Maybe this is just me. I mean, you know, my mother. So

Tony Arsenal 45:41
I do know your mother. That sounds like

Jesse Schwamb 45:42
all those. Yeah, yeah, exactly. All those things actually happened in my life. And so it would be absolutely ridiculous. If I called my mother after we finished recording this podcast, and told her that I eat all my broccoli tonight at dinner, and that she should be proud of me. Because those rules before time to emphasize something that was specific about the heart behind them. And so this is the same kind of thing where we get so caught up in the sense of like, What don't you see what's happening here, like, those who are proud, those who are high up those who have a lot of money, those who have wealth and status, they're being brought low and being brought down without seeing the heart of God behind those things. We're all guilty of coming into something and being so focused on the details that we actually do not we just fail to see the actual heart behind God in those rules. So like, I would like to think that if, for some reason, like we'd snapped our fingers, you and I are like, clicked our heels and said, there's no government, like the economy that and it happened, that we would actually fall into the same type of problems that the Israelites did here. Yeah, because of a failure to have a real heart change. And so I guess, as we kind of like, wrap it up, like we were spoken, I guess about, there's an accusation in these verses, there's something about the punishment that's coming. And then there's this conclusion which draws into what you said, there's this wonderful tie in with the Canaanites, when they were asked to from the promised land, everything was was done by a cast of lots. And you we finished up in verse five with this phrase of cast the line by lot for in from what I can understand from like reading some others who are far smarter than me, that particular phrase is not found anywhere else. In the Old Testament. There, there is the cast a lot which occurs in Joshua lucky said, but here, the land that had been originally portion by lot through the Holy Spirit with this, and there's this measuring quarter line that was used to mark it out. But now, there's no inheritance that's going to be given. And so I think actually, we have at the end of this is the passage is actually foreshadowing the removal of the covenant blessings from old Israel, and their transference to the body of Christian believers, which becomes the Israel of God. And I say all that to wrap up that metaphor with the broccoli to say, just like, as Paul speaks about in Romans, we do have to be really careful that we've been in grafted, that we can have haughty attitudes in our own spiritual lives. And it takes a lot to fight against those. Because we know that God actively opposes the proud does the scripture say not? Not doesn't help them out. Now isn't happy with them actively opposes the proud? And so we need to be so careful about any kind of root of pride that exists in our life spiritual other. Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 48:18
yeah. And there's a certain there's a certain sense of wonderful irony in how the condemnation of these people comes about. Right. So the primary sin that Micah is pointing out in this section is that those in Jerusalem who have power have disregarded God's laws regarding the inheritance of the land. And their punishment is that they are going to lament the fact that God has revoked to their own claim on their ancestral lands. Right. So in verse four, they moan bitterly, that we are utterly ruined, he has changed the portion of my people, he removes it from me, he'll lots our field to the apostate, and then the punishment is that you will no longer have an inheritance. So those who have taken deceitful and wicked ways to steal the inheritance of others, they have now had their inheritance revoked from them. So so there's a sense of cosmic justice, in that the punishment, and the judgment that comes to a people always fits the crime, to greater or lesser degrees, but there's always an appropriateness to the punishment. And one of the things you know, that particular phrase to cast the line by law is not used elsewhere. But there is a very similar line of thinking in Psalm 16. And it says, Behold, the lines have fallen for me in pleasant places. Yeah, indeed, I have a beautiful inheritance. So the supreme blessing that this in this Psalm that that David is pointing to, is that God has governed the falling of the line, he's governed the way that the lot has fallen for David, to give him a pleasant inheritance, and that the lines of his property the lot, that's where that phrase of the line, the lines of his property, are pleasant to him. And so rather than understand that the lines are pleasant as David did, the people in Jerusalem in Micah's time had decided that the lines that the Lord had allocated to them by a lot, was no longer pleasant. And so God said, Fine, you're not going to have any lines to your property, because you're not going to have any property anymore. I'm revoking your inheritance. And that's something that I think, as the church we really need to understand is that although we know that God will never forsake us, we have no promise from God of earthly temporal success or riches. And so we should be cautious because, you know, sometimes you'll you'll hear about a church. And I mean, like a local particular body that sort of loses everything, right, maybe it's a storm that destroys their property, or maybe just strife sweeps through the congregation and the whole thing falls apart. I'm not quick to say that that's always a matter of sin, because it's not right. Sometimes, there are times where a church gets hit by a tornado. And it has nothing to do with sin that's going on in that congregation. But there are also times where we can look at a congregation, a particular body, that once had enormous influence in a community, and through their own actions and attitudes has lost that influence, we should remember that sometimes God takes away our earthly inheritance as a result of our own sin. And ultimately, we confess, and I know that that's for our own good, but we should recognize that that is a reality. And so we should read Micah and recognize that there are consequences to sin. And God's judgment sometimes means that he takes away what we like consider, and what maybe even was, at one point our earthly temporal inheritance from the Lord.

Jesse Schwamb 52:06
There was, of course, only one time when the punishment didn't fit the crime, right. And when we consider the cross, what we understand is that we will never experience the pain and humiliation and discomfort that we actually truly believe. Because God in His great mercy has given us a savior, to experience that to take under that wrath in our stead. And it strikes me as you said, that there in this passage, we see both a spiritual lack of contentedness in relishing God's laws in using his rest for the ways in which he's prescribed it. And also just a straight up physical lack of contentedness that I actually just want more than God has given me. And we all I think, at some point in our lives, or just regularly wrestle with those things. So instead of maybe kind of focusing on this passage and saying, we're here we see those who are powerful, we should almost just stop there, because for the most part, those who are listening to our voices are in and I consider ourselves as well condemned in this way, in a sense, part of those who are overprivileged, we have we have enough money and power to make Solomon blush. And yet we can be the most unhappy, unforgiving, annoys people. And so it there's just so much here, that's really hitting me hard, because we need to remember that though God has taken on the wrath of sin through Jesus Christ, it does not negate the fact that as a loving father, he still disciplines his children. Right. And when we, when we especially not just persistence in but volitional Lee run to it, that is of any opportunity, a particular point in time where God I think, is going to bring his discipline upon us. Yeah. And it's going to be a discipline that eventually, of course, leads toward our good and for His glory. And so we just can't discount that. And I just think that's sometimes maybe this is just my own life, and perhaps with some of the the, the sphere of influence that I'm in. I think there's a sensibility. And I've often heard this argument that Well, God doesn't really discipline his children the same way he does in the Scriptures, because we're on this side of the cross. And I just think that is an argument based on a false premise.

Tony Arsenal 54:18
Yeah. I mean, the book of Hebrews basically says precisely the opposite. that it does. God doesn't to discipline us that it means we're not his children.

Jesse Schwamb 54:27
Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And those are heavy words.

Tony Arsenal 54:30
Yeah, I think coming away from Micah this week. The biggest thing for me is just to recognize that God's law is what determines not just right behavior, but it's what determines appropriate punishment and what justice is. And so I think there are times where, you know, I think something is fundamentally unjust, because it offends my sensibilities, but I just step back, and I need to compare that to the law of God. And then I also need to recognize that sometimes the things that happen in my life that I would maybe think are negative or or not good or or discomforting that sometimes those are the discipline of the Lord. But sometimes that discipline is the result of my sin. So I need to step back from that I need to think about it a little bit. I need to pray about it. And I do recognize that what's different between me and the people in in, that Mike was talking about is that this is judgment, right? This is God executing judgment on a reprobate, unregenerate people. That's not the situation I'm in. When God chastises me, it's for my own good. When he chastises the people in Michaels day, it was not for their own good, it was a retributive justice, because they had violated the law of God and had no mediator. So when I look at at Micah, I should be driven to my knees and gratitude, that I am not like those who God's says that, that the yoke of disaster will not be removed from their neck. And the beauty of the gospel, when I look at Micah here is that the yoke of disaster was not removed from Jesus's neck, he took that yoke of disaster on my behalf. And he tells me that I should take his yoke, which is a yoke of blessing that is easy and light. And so we should look at this. And we should be driven to our knees and gratitude that we don't have to face the wrath of God because Christ, Christ, face it on our behalf. But then we should walk forward in justice as defined by God's law, because that's what a grateful heart does.

Jesse Schwamb 56:42
That's Well said. And what I've really been drawn to in this particular week is just this idea of creating a paradigm in my own life by the power of the Holy Spirit, where I'm trying to get to the root of what Mike is addressing here. And I think part of that is gratitude, like you're speaking about you. And the other part for me is just a resting in the comfort and sovereignty of God as demonstrated in his laws, because I don't have children. I have lots of wonderful friends, dear brothers and sisters that do have young children. And I see the wonderful ways in which they interact with their children, and how to discipline them kindly, but firmly, but especially how they make them eat food. If you really want to get a sense for somebody's parenting. See how they handle their kids at dinnertime? Yeah, because this idea of like eating things that you don't want seems like such a straightforward idea. But of course, the child they're just like, I do not like this thing. It doesn't please me, I don't like it. It's the texture, it doesn't taste good. And what seems like so obvious is that these things are good for your well being right? How odd it is that the child resist it so much, because they just cannot conceive that this thing can be any good. And that's exactly how I treat God in almost every situation. It's how I treat him when I get stuck in something as simple as traffic. Yeah, where God knows what is best for me. And I cannot just take him at his word engine, Tim. And even the simple ways. Yeah. And so I love this idea that what Michael brings forward is something else I read in in Isaiah this week about Isaiah uses this really incredible metaphor and speaking about the Israelites about how they walked across on God's back. Yeah, and that he was the one literally supporting them, not just like that was in his hand with he created a bridge for them, or part of the Red Sea, all those things he did. But that the metaphor is that he was literally walking. They were walking on his body. He was supporting them and holding them up. Yeah. And so I see so much of that, as Mike is saying here. So do you not see that God has established all this for your good and you refuse not only to submit to His kind of yoke, but you want to break it, destroy it, and then go on your own against him in every conceivable way? And do you not see that I need to bring this disaster upon you to bring you back because your destruction that you incur by way of going this route is actually so much greater? Yeah, then the the discipline, and the judgment that I will bring them will eventually result in your restoration.

Tony Arsenal 59:07
Yeah. Yeah, that's as good a way for us to wrap this up as as any. So um, we're, we're going to take a quick break after this episode and go back into our reform preaching cast. So next week, we're going to be talking about chapter nine of reform preaching by Joel BE. So if you haven't picked up the book, if you haven't had a chance to read, we're still pretty much on the ground floor. So you can catch up quickly there. They're easy to digest chapters, we've got all the previous ones up on the website. So pick up the book, take a quick read, get caught up. And we're going to be talking about chapter nine next week, which I think is William Perkins, who's one of my personal Yeah, one of my personal heroes in the faith. I've learned so much from him. I love William Perkins. He's such a great theologian, but he's such a great example of really just good gospel centered preaching. So I'm excited to talk about him.

Jesse Schwamb 1:00:03
This is a great entry point. I want to just affirm what you said and echo it by just complimenting that I want. I want people more people to get involved with this book club with us. And sometimes it can be intimidating. We feel like I'm too far gone there early into chapter nine. Lot of these chapters are kind of compartmentalize. Yeah, but we're to whet appetites if this is like helpful for anybody. We're about to get into some Puritan action. I know that the Puritans are one super cool and to Super Miss understood like we're not just talking about dudes with like pilgrim hats and buckles on their shoes. So like there's there's a lot that's like just kind of misunderstood in evangelical circles about the Puritans. Yeah. Even with use phrases like puritanical. So this is a great time to jump in, and get on the reformed preaching train. And again, if you want to look at some really bad preaching, you can go to at fake sermons on Twitter, and then you pick up your copy over from preaching. You're totally refreshed. You're into it. And you're just loving your pastors.

Tony Arsenal 1:01:02
Yeah. Yeah. Well, just this has been a great, a great look at reform, preaching, reform preaching, I suppose you call it reform preaching. But this has been a good look at prophetic preaching and the prophet Micah. Wow. I'm so good at segues that I just segue Micah into Joel beaky without even realizing it.

Jesse Schwamb 1:01:25
You can't you listen, you can't teach that actually probably did they do teach segues at like, podcasting school? which neither you or I have attended?

Tony Arsenal 1:01:34
Is there a podcasting school? I don't know. I'm

Jesse Schwamb 1:01:36
just I'm sure there's gotta be right. Why should this podcast something Jesse? I don't know, maybe

Tony Arsenal 1:01:43
two episodes in and we haven't got a podcasting school yet.

Jesse Schwamb 1:01:46
We went to the, oh, this is gonna be so lame. But I have to say we went to the podcast in school Hard Knocks, I listened to episode one.

Tony Arsenal 1:01:54
Yeah, so this is a funny story. So we recently consolidated Alright, I suppose I recently consolidate I didn't really ask you to before I did this. I recently consolidated the public domain, and the reform standard into one single website. And I accidentally copied the wrong URL for a file on the reform standard. And I ended up copying and pasting in a URL from like, Episode 19 of the reformed brotherhood. And so it came on my podcast and I was like, Who are these jokers? And why did it start off with like this weird, this weird guitar music? And I got like, 1000 emails that were like, just see, you know, you put the wrong episode on. So it's fixed now. But I was like, oh, man, man, we were really bad at this. I mean, we're not great at it now. But we were really bad at this.

Jesse Schwamb 1:02:47
No, that's why I mean, I feel bad for people who are just coming into it now and think, man, these guys, how can they even hang together week after week? You should listen to the first 10

Tony Arsenal 1:02:59
I know it's good. We didn't go to podcasting school first.

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:02
That's true. We did not get a degree in podcasting. So I'm after this. I'm gonna go look up and see high and get a BS or ba. I'm not sure. It probably depends on the institution. I

Tony Arsenal 1:03:12
think it's probably proper bs podcasting. Right there, folks. Well, right.

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:23
On that note, that's our that's our go to segue. Well On that note, until Until next time, Tony. Honor everyone. Love the Brotherhood.