Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Tony and Jesse jump into the Dutch Further Reformation as they continue through Reformed Preaching by Dr. Joel Beeke.
[00:00:00]Jesse Schwamb: [00:00:09] Welcome to episode 177 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
Tony Arsenal: [00:00:16] And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast of brotherly love. Hey, brother.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:00:31] Hey brother. What happened this week?
Tony Arsenal: [00:00:35] Yeah. Nothing big, you know. International epidemic. Quarantines no big deal.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:00:44] Yeah, it was a busy, crazy, wild week. So that being said, it seems like we should just launch right into our usual affirmations and denials, but let's switch it up a little bit this week. Let's start with the denial so we can end on an upbeat note. So what are [00:01:00] you denying against.
Tony Arsenal: [00:01:01] Yes. So I'm denying against the Corona virus in case anybody has not been up to speed on what's going on in my world. So I live in the great state of New Hampshire out in the middle of basically nowhere. one of
Jesse Schwamb: [00:01:13] Live free or die
Tony Arsenal: [00:01:14] of the normal benefits of living in a rural area is you don't have to worry about things like travel spread, , epidemics, but apparently not.
So it's in the news. I'm not saying anything confidential, but, a patient, or, an employee of Dartmouth Hitchcock medical center returned from a trip to Italy and, reported to the hospital with. Symptoms and tested positive. So a lot of people went into quarantine, a lot of people who are not sick.
there, there has been two confirmed cases at Dartmouth Hitchcock, of employees. And then there are now two new cases in the community, which is a little scary, but you know, this, this falls under that, our rubric of the five big denials, we [00:02:00] had our five affirmations, we've got the five denials, and this is one of those, like.
Denials that come about because of the fall. I suppose all denials in the grand scheme of things come out about the fall. But,
Jesse Schwamb: [00:02:09] factually
Tony Arsenal: [00:02:10] this sucks. Like this is a, this is a really frustrating. Place to live right now because you can see it like, you know, I, I do my grocery shopping on Wednesday or Thursday night and usually it's like very busy and it was like a ghost town.
Like the shelves were picked over, the parking lot was empty. People are, people are scared and you know, it's okay to be scared. Like I've, I've had to sort of explain this to my employees. Like, it's okay to be scared, but it's not okay to let fear overcome you and overtake you. And it's been a, it's been a very.
A sanctifying experience so far to sort of like. Really cast my cares on Jesus. Cause like family members, church members, one of the, one of the people who tested positive in the community as a member of a Baptist church near us. they [00:03:00] unfortunately had to cancel their services this morning. so we're, we're near and dear to the concerns that are happening.
So if you get a minute listeners, just pray. Pray for, the upper Valley here. Pray for the people. You know, this is really hard soil and people are scared. And one thing, that tills spiritual soil quite unlike anything else is the fear of death. And, it's out there like people are afraid. So pray for us, pray for the gospel to go forth, pray for safety.
For me and for my wife, for my family, for my employees. It's, it's a scary time.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:03:35] So two things I'd like to say before I get to the coronavirus stuff. The first is that people should, at this point, expect that you'd come with this kind of denial because again, we are one of the top 50 healthcare organizations in the U S we've been nominated for an award of that ilk. So. You knew we were going to bring this up.
It's, it's part of what we do. It's what makes this podcast so great. The second thing is I'm going to just [00:04:00] jump on, if you don't mind the denial and say that I'm not only denying the virus in the fall, I wish, I like what you said. I really wish somebody would like take maybe all of our F Mason's denials in, diagram them in those five categories so we could just see where they all lie.
Of course, the cross of this. Yeah. This entire podcast. But with respect to that, I mean, I'm totally with you and what I want to deny as kind of a tangent is that there is, at the same time, I see an overreaction and there's such a unique opportunity for Christians here to have a peace of mind in how they embrace this particular issue that's going on.
Because it's, what I'm not saying is that it's not serious. And I'm not saying be foolhardy or foolish with the way you approach the infection that's happening. And it's about to spread. And I think in our own country, but there is something to be said for how Christians approach that with a piece and a surety, that God is in control of all things.
And if you look back through history, Christians have had this unique place in role in times of severe viral infection and otherwise [00:05:00] where, again. Being appropriately cautious. They have continued to love others, especially those who are sick. And so this is, I don't want to get sick. I don't want you for you to be sick.
I don't want any brothers and sisters listening to this to fall ill. and yet at the same time, we know that to have the kind of peace where our heads on our widths are about us will all the world is falling apart, is to show in a very profound way that we trust in something that's outside of ourselves.
And that there is a God who loves us, is in control of all things. Especially, it may be only if, when there is a personal consequence to believing that, and so I really believe that just how we handle this, not the sickness, not whether you get it or not, but just how you handle and speak about how your understanding and processing all that's going on.
Is of so much tremendous value to those who are not believers that I'm denying against on the part of Christians and overreaction where we seem to react in the same way as everybody else is. And yet we at the same time profess to have a loving savior who's [00:06:00] taken care of us. So. We need to be careful about that.
And I really love what you've said and you've written on this already so far, and real benefit source of encouragement of saying, Lord, help me to live well, deliver rightly, and to walk in a manner worthy of the calling of the gospel while the coronavirus and all the eddies of anxiety swirl around us around the globe right now.
Tony Arsenal: [00:06:20] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it's, , you know, on the grand scheme of things, for most people who. Get the Corona virus. It's, it's a mild inconvenience. , but there's so much fear about it. And, you know, I work in a hospital and one of the things that's frustrating to me is, . You know, the impact that this is having on our ability to care for our patients is probably going to be more of a health impact community-wide than the actual viruses in our community.
Because once, once it, once it entered our medical system, we have to exercise this over abundance of caution. And so anybody who has been within [00:07:00] six feet of an infected individual is being sent home on a 14 day quarantine. So you, as you can imagine, as. You know, the first illness comes, there's a, there's a ring of a quarantine that that individual has had contact with.
And then the second, infection comes as a result of that. And there's a new ring of quarantine. Some of that is overlapping, but a lot of it is not. And now we haven't had a third case test positive. And at this point, it looks unlikely that there will be at Dartmouth Hitchcock because. we got everybody who was sick into quarantine really fast.
But, now that it's in the community, that's going to keep coming up as people from the community come into the hospital. So each time that someone is exposed and it's known that they're exposed, then they have to go on quarantine. So it, it just is really disruptive to businesses. The economic impact is going to be tremendous nationwide.
But as I said, like businesses in the area are struggling right now because people aren't shopping. People aren't really [00:08:00] doing the normal economic activities. So it is going to be a pretty big impact. So just listeners, this, this really is an opportunity for the gospel. whether it is, you know, you're at the grocery store.
I was at five guys, picking up some burgers and I could hear
Jesse Schwamb: [00:08:14] Yeah. You were.
Tony Arsenal: [00:08:15] I was, yeah. And I could hear the people at five guys, the workers there expressing concern about the fact that like if the restaurant gets closed down, like they don't get paid during that time, how are they going to pay their bills?
And I took it as an opportunity, you know, partially as an employee of the hospital, I kind of said, Hey, you know, I work at the hospital. I think it's going to be okay. Here's, here's what I know that maybe you haven't heard yet. But then also to say, and you know what. You know, there's a God who's in control of all of this, and he is going to take care of what's best for people, , what's best for himself and what's best for his church.
And you know, I use that as an opportunity to say, and, and you know what? You can know this, God like you, you can know this God. You know, there's, there's a way for you to be in fellowship with him. [00:09:00] And you could tell like the, I think what I said about the . Be working at the hospital probably had more impact on them than, than anything.
But you could tell that just having someone tell them, this isn't a random thing, it's not out of control. , there's a predictability to this. There's a known quantity to this. You could see their faces and their accountants just change. So pray, use this as an opportunity to preach the gospel boldly as we all should.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:09:24] Yeah. This is like a really profound opportunity for all of us that would say. We really weighed into the reformed stream of theology for us. Cause we talk such a big game, we get all this weight. We're all in the same family, right? This is like a family conversation where in their living room. We can all be honest that we talk a really big game about this offer to of God and how much we love and appreciate that characteristic about him.
And so here's the opportunity to live like that actually does matter. And to let that shape our feelings and to let that suppress our freak outs, like this is the time where it actually matters the most. And if we're the kind of people, which we normally are, that say, I don't know, my [00:10:00] theology totally shapes the way that I believe and how I feel and how I behave, then the proof of the pudding's in the eating.
So I think we're, we have a wonderful opportunity here for us all to be a good, you know, like reformed theological adults to adult a little bit with respect to our theology and to show that we mean what we say and we're going to act in a way that's consistent with the things that we've been saying all along.
Because when you squeeze an orange, you get orange, you get orange juice. So when we get rung out here and then weeks that are ahead, the question will be, what are people gonna see? And I really hope that they do see Jesus Christ, that what they see is people that are strong in their words as they are in the behaviors that express that God is sovereign.
So I'm putting that upon myself like I've got to be that kind of person. If that's really what I believe, then here's my moment by the grace of God to the power of the Holy spirit to show that that's exactly the case. So yeah. It's not like I would wish, again, up this situation upon anybody. This is a traumatic and tragic event in many ways, as all sicknesses, as all diseases, all epidemics [00:11:00] are.
And so at the same time, I love what you said, and many of others have said this, that when we pull death into the conversation, when people feel that they're suddenly actually vulnerable, which of course they always are. But when that vulnerability comes home to nest in their conscience, there is a, the conscious mind that is there is a unique opportunity to speak the gospel because there is a new entry point that isn't always present.
Tony Arsenal: [00:11:24] Yeah. Yeah, it, it really is. It's, it's a fertile ground that most of us have never experienced, and this probably is a kind of like a once in a lifetime opportunity for most of us. So
Jesse Schwamb: [00:11:38] Yeah. You know what . Yeah. I know what this is like to me, I've been thinking about it this week is it's kind of like, you know how it was like. In previous errors. You can't do this anymore, especially not in the United States, but you would have your local gathering of worship where that'd be a church or whatnot, and there would be a graveyard associated with it.
In fact, you'd walk through oftentimes the graveyard to get to the church so that this idea of [00:12:00] mortality was always present, and this is like that situation. It's like somebody just dropped the graveyard and our normal place of like interaction where we're walking back and forth and suddenly we're seeing the headstones and we're thinking, yeah, this is for real.
And that's always the case, but this reminder, this vulnerability is so fresh to some people that it really is a unique opportunity.
Tony Arsenal: [00:12:19] Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Well, let's, let's get positive here and not
Jesse Schwamb: [00:12:23] Yeah. Positive. Positive. Yeah. So how about you start us off again? I'm really curious. Well, do you want to say off the top what category your affirmation falls into? Since apparently we only have five.
Tony Arsenal: [00:12:35] this is a book recommendation, so this is, I guess it's like theology. I, this is an oldie but a goodie. There's nothing, there's nothing novel about this. the funny part is I just dropped like six coronavirus puns in one spot. there's nothing novel about this. I'm just, I've been listening to this on an audio book a little bit at a time.
it's a body of divinity by Thomas, Boston. Like it's,
Jesse Schwamb: [00:12:57] Oh nice.
Tony Arsenal: [00:12:58] classic reformed [00:13:00] work. it's, it's essentially his commentary on the Westminster catechisms. , which is good because, you know, you know, we read these, we study these, we talk about them, and I think we have, you know, we have a pretty good grip on what, what they mean, but.
Thomas Boston, you know, is obviously much closer to the divines than we are. And, so his commentary and his understanding bears more weight in terms of the under, you know, the original intent of the authors. And so it's, it's just a good book. And I found it, you know, it's incredibly devotional to just listen to this, this man explained the, the catechism and what it means.
Sort of elucidate the scripture references and where, where this doctrine is coming from. So check it out. You can get a pretty inexpensively on audible if you want to listen to it. Otherwise you can get a free, you know, free copy almost anywhere. I think you pick it up on monetarism. If you want to pick up a free digital copy, it's, it's readily available.
So body of divinity, Thomas Boston, it's just, it's just super good. It's bombed to my soul.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:13:57] I feel like you've actually set me up for my [00:14:00] affirmation, which is somewhat related in two ways. One, it has an audio component, and two, I'd like to go on record on this particular episode and confirm that. I definitely have no idea anymore what things we've affirmed and what things we haven't. So there's a possibility.
I have this, this suspicion like deep in my soul, in my inner being that you actually have already affirmed this thing. And so I'm going to jump on that and maybe try to steer it in a direction that is a little bit novel so that we have some nuance, but this falls under the, I feel like now I'm compelled to say what category this falls onto.
This affirmation falls under the app category. Now. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I've had this feeling recently that I just can't, I just don't have enough time to read the things I want to read. And so I've been learning all this amazing stuff about how our minds are actually able to process the, the heard word or just, you know, just.
Spoken language much more quickly and efficiently, [00:15:00] then you're able to actually to read the same amount of text. So that's probably not a surprise to a lot of people cause you're probably listening to my voice at like one and a half or two times speed. And you're still able to discern anything without any kind of like major cognitive dissonance.
So that being said, with all that buildup, what I'm affirming is this app called pocket. And so yeah, pocket is great cause here's what allows you to do. It allows you to save articles that you find interesting online, either by the app itself, or you can download the, the extension for our Chrome, for instance.
It will put them into the app, and then you can have the app read the articles to you. So it's like a way to create this wonderful curated content of the written word. And get it spoken to you. And I find that I'm able to actually consume so much more of the things I would want to be able to read, but just to have the time for it, because obviously can't read like while I'm driving or while I'm cleaning.
I mean, you can, but that's tremendously unsafe. So, and the great thing about this is when you drop an article into [00:16:00] pocket. It gives you the amount of time that it would take for it to read it. So if you even have four minutes, you can drop in there and get an article read to you. I'm just loving this because it's filling this gap where all these things I wanted to be able to read and I can't just because I can't, I don't have the time and ability to do it in a certain point in time.
I can have it read to me and it is like computer voice. I could say it's a really good. Like AI, but it's, it's you. You'll get over that and get used to it, I think relatively quickly. The last thing I'll say is, I've already affirmed on this podcast before a couple mentoree app called Feedly, which allows you to create and curate your own kind of RSS feeds and through Feedly, you can drop this stuff.
Into pocket so you can have all your stuff that you normally like to see and Feedly, kick it over to pocket and then listen to it. So I've just been loving, like whether on the internet, on my computer, or I'm on my iPad, or I'm on my iPhone in either of those three, I can drop stuff into pocket, listen to it, and I'm just loving having articles read to me.
I really think it's fantastic. So I'm pretty sure you affirm [00:17:00] pocket before
Tony Arsenal: [00:17:01] Yeah, I actually, I've, I've had this exact same affirmation, including using it as a way to basically turn blogs into a podcast.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:17:09] How dare you,
Tony Arsenal: [00:17:10] So, but no, it's, it's an affirmation that's worth repeating because I do this too, and you know, if you have a little bit of, like. Web savvy, you can actually use an app called Zapier, which is sort of like a, a low key programming app too.
You can, you can basically convert. , RSS feeds automatically into pocket. So like, if you have an RSS feed that, you know, you always want to read a blog, you always want to read, you can use Zapier to automatically send those to pocket. So they'll automatically come there. The one thing pockets missing that I wish they would add is the ability to just drop an RSS feed into pocket and have it automatically pull everything that you want.
, because like reformation 21 though. The reformation is 21 blog. I would read everything that comes off there, but there's a lot of times that I forget to check it for a few days [00:18:00] and then all of those blogs, I don't have time to catch up on those. So having the ability to drop those straight into pocket is great.
And you know what? The computer voice is really good. It is very, , very easy to listen to. It's doesn't sound too robotic. I do have to slow it down. Usually I listen to podcasts at three times speed, and I do have to slow this down to like. Two times speed because the robot voices gets a little weird at high speeds.
But, , yeah, I, I'm totally with you on this one.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:18:27] So this is like one of these strange affirmations that denial sections where it's like. On both cases. It's like, what a time to be alive, you know? Like it really is like, it's, it's exceptional and it's trying. And in the midst of all those things, God is always exceptionally good. And I've, I've found this app so useful and I know that a lot of our listeners are super big readers and this is just a way to kind of like read a little bit more through your ears.
So it's, I would definitely encourage everybody to go, go grab pockets and just start listening to articles. You will love it. I guarantee [00:19:00] it. You will love it.
Tony Arsenal: [00:19:01] You know, not to, not to make light of a serious situation, but I would be, being untruthful if one of the first thoughts that went through my mind when I realized that I might be quarantined was, not think of all the reading I can catch up on in two weeks.
I mean, I would, I would still have to work from home probably because the hospital still is operating and I still, even if I got quarantined, it's unlikely that all of my employees would get quarantined.
So I'd still have to try to manage them remotely, but just think of all of the books I could get finished up. I mean, I've got a stack on my desk that's probably the height of a small toddler, and I just can't get to it. So it'd be nice to have some quiet time for a change.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:19:42] Stacks on stacks. Well, speaking of books, and just before we get into this, this version of the book cast, you issued a challenge, an impromptu challenge, but then again, everything we do in this podcast is impromptu because there is zero, and I can't emphasize this enough. Zero [00:20:00] planning. That goes in almost every episode.
You issued a challenge, and I want to have you give that challenge again, but I want to note that we have a winner. We're not going to release that yet, but we have a winner. So there's no need for anybody else to write in because I mean you could, but she will not win. But remind everybody, what was it that you gave us this little challenge or contest
Tony Arsenal: [00:20:19] the challenge is episode 179 for us is a very special episode. And, the challenge was for the first person who could. Correctly identify why episode one 79 is special, wins a reform brotherhood. Beerstein compliments of the reform brotherhood. so we have a winner. We're not going to announce it yet.
We're also not going to announce why episode one 79 is special until episode one 79, where we will explain why it's special and also announced the winner. But Jesse, I hear you have some, not quite. correct answers that you wanted to share with
[00:21:00] Jesse Schwamb: [00:21:00] that's right. So in anticipation of episode one 79 let's talk about some guesses that were really, really good, but are not the reason. So two in particular, one is from our brother Chris Bartoceski, who said one 79 is a prime number. I think that is so a mathematics person. That is a beautiful answer. I didn't even think about that.
Unfortunately. Not the right answer, but once a, well, he's correct. One 79 is a prime number, and that's a beautiful thing, but not the reason why.
Tony Arsenal: [00:21:32] that is interesting. That's pretty high for O for a prime number, isn't it?
Jesse Schwamb: [00:21:38] , I mean, there's lots of man, you just did you just set that up for me so I could just tee off on street nerdery because that's all I want to do right now.
Tony Arsenal: [00:21:46] I mean, I know like as you get higher in the prime numbers, it becomes less and less comment. Like higher in numbers. It becomes less and less
Jesse Schwamb: [00:21:52] You're, that is actually correct. It's not that high for a prime number, but it is, it is unique with respect to like obviously one or two.
[00:22:00] Tony Arsenal: [00:21:59] Yeah,
Jesse Schwamb: [00:22:00] So do you know what the only even prime number is.
Yes. Well done. So here's one other guests that was so, you know, beautiful, but not correct. This is from our brother John Larson.
He actually writes, my guess would be that episode one 79 has not taken place yet and neither has Christ's second coming. So I'd be excited to hear your conversation on his return, new heavens and new earth. And if this is not right, postmark or for the future, and I'll enjoy whatever you have for us.
Next. So what I love about this answer is it's a, I mean, he, he's right in that, you know, we don't know when Christ's second coming is, and this is also in the future. I love the, he parlayed that into our quest for us to talk about the new heavens and new earth, like a definitely done brother John. Kudos to you, sir.
Tony Arsenal: [00:22:51] I mean, by that logic, any episode in the future could match that criteria though. So we're in pretty good shape,
Jesse Schwamb: [00:22:56] Well, that's what I love about this is he was like, I'm just going into, I [00:23:00] know you'll read this email. I mean, we read all the emails, but he's like, I know you'll read this one in particular, and so let me just use this as a way to build a bridge to what I'd like you to talk about.
Tony Arsenal: [00:23:08] yeah. All right. So here's another challenge that we will issue.
I like this. I like, I like
Jesse Schwamb: [00:23:14] Oh my word.
Tony Arsenal: [00:23:16] So now that we have a winner, I would like to hear the funniest, , the funniest answers to the question of why is episode 179 special? And the one that Jesse and I judged to be the funniest, we'll win a reform brother and tee shirt.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:23:33] Oh, it's back on
Tony Arsenal: [00:23:35] Yes. And we do have both men's and women's t-shirts available, so I'd love to get some funny answers from the ladies as well.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:23:44] Yeah, sisters, we know you're out there. We know you're listening. You're in the Facebook group. We want to hear from you as well.
Tony Arsenal: [00:23:49] Yes. So send us your funny answers to why episode 179 is a special episode and the funniest answer, [00:24:00] subjectively assessed by Jesse. And I. We'll win a tee shirt.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:24:04] Let me just say something about that real quick. Maybe we've, I don't know if we've ever formally addressed this. But we've joked about it, we realized that the name of the podcast is somewhat confusing in that it says brotherhood, but we're using that like in the strict Pauline sense, which is like inclusive of brothers and sisters.
So, but we had to choose a name, so it's inclusive. It's not just like dudes on dudes on dudes hanging out. It's, it's for everybody.
Tony Arsenal: [00:24:27] Yeah, that's true. That is
Jesse Schwamb: [00:24:28] Yeah. I really regret actually that I said dudes on dudes on dudes.
Tony Arsenal: [00:24:32] Yeah. Did you see my face? It was a little
Jesse Schwamb: [00:24:35] Yeah. Did you see that? Yeah. I was bristling as it was coming out and I was like, I need to add more dudes to make it better, and then adding more dudes made it worse.
So this, everybody is podcasting once again without a net. Again, I can't emphasize enough. Zero preparation.
Tony Arsenal: [00:24:50] I think it's probably time for us to share the story of why we don't use the most obvious. Tagline for the show. [00:25:00] so very early on we identified that the perfect tagline for the show would be something, and we've used it once or twice, but it would be
Jesse Schwamb: [00:25:08] wait, are we, are we really doing this right now? We're really going to tell this story. Okay. All right. Here we
Tony Arsenal: [00:25:14] the, the tagline would be something akin to like your podcasting brothers from another mother. And, , we tested that with a few audiences. , and the concern was that, , at one point, , , the sinful polygamists on sister wives had used that phrase.
And so the concern was that our show would be associated with. Polygamy. So we don't use that phrase, although it is a, it is a great tagline for our show to say, you're reformed brothers from another mother, or something like that. , but out of an abundance of caution, we have quarantined that only to be brought out on special occasions.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:25:54] and for the record, we shouldn't have to say it, but let me just say it. [00:26:00] There is always a standing denial against polygamy on this podcast.
Tony Arsenal: [00:26:05] That is a true statement. The weeds deny polygamy regardless of what you may have heard from our tagline.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:26:12] Yeah, I don't, I don't want anybody to say like, well, like this is the exact kind of thing the internet is used for, for somebody to write and say, I've never heard them explicitly deny against it, so I can only assume therefore it, that is not the case.
Tony Arsenal: [00:26:26] that's true. Well, now that we've gotten, , the big things out of the way, we deny global pandemics, , we deny outwardly sinful marital practices. , let's move on to our topic.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:26:38] Yeah, let's do it. So we're in chapter 14 on this episode of dr Joel bikies book or form preaching, and this is who says every time, but one great chapter two. I think this is like a really useful chapter. And the title is introduction to the Dutch further reformation. And if you're kind of like the casual listener or kind of [00:27:00] casually and connected with reform theology, or maybe not too familiar with its history, you might say, what do I care about the reformation that happened to the Netherlands?
But this is an informative chapter that really helps to. I think articulate in enumerates how, what's called the further Dutch reformation shaped reform theology. So this is like a great entry point into some wonderful history that helps us give a further perspective for why things are the way they are now.
Tony Arsenal: [00:27:28] Yeah. And you know, the Dutch further reformation is something that most reform folk have almost a, , innate theological understanding of. But don't have any real historical, theological understanding of, of the situation. And so sometimes you hear the Dutch reformation or the Dutch further reformation referred to as Dutch puritanism.
It's a very common label and it's not, it's not entirely an inept, . Title for it, and then adapt a description of it because it shares a lot of the same concerns with puritanism as far as, [00:28:00] , reforming worship. So this is in part where we see the Dutch church really starts to escalate or, or. , advance the regulative principle in, in sort of a, a new way that wasn't quite a focus earlier.
, but there are some very distinct differences as well in that the Dutch reformation or the Dutch further reformation didn't have the same focus. On purifying the church that the Puritans are, I mean, it's in the name the Puritans are known for because the, the Dutch church, you know, the Puritan reformation in England, it started off because the church of England was corrupt.
And so, you know, the church of England came about in sort of this pseudo Catholic way where, , you know, the King of England wanted to break from the Roman Catholic church. In terms of affiliation, but not necessarily in terms of theology. And so there's this complex back and forth where the church of England has some of these Catholic overtones, Roman Catholic overtones that remains, that had to be purified out.
And that's really what the Puritan movement is about. [00:29:00] The Dutch church never had that. Same thing. So their focus and their understanding and the way that they went about this further reformation, and that's why it's more beneficial to call it the further affirmation, because it really is just the continuation of the initial gains of the reformation take kind of taking the next step.
So it's, it's important to understand this because. As dr Beekie points out, kind of the pinnacle of the Dutch for the reformation is the canons of door. It's like the single most important or one of the single most important concise doctrinal statements on soteriology in the history of the church as a whole, and especially in the history of, you know, reform.
Presbyterian reformed Baptist thought.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:29:40] And all this comes out of this tiny little country. The Netherlands, and that's what's so unique and wonderful about the way God works in this world. W we're talking about the 16th race, I guess the 17th 18th century, actually 17th and early 18th century. And like you said, there is a parallel to English puritanism.
But what strikes me as something [00:30:00] that's really special about the Dutch further reformation, and I think really a tangent to our current times is. Because it didn't have the same externalities like you spoke about in terms of the political influence of puritanism in England. It was basically a reaction to the absence of a living faith and desire to make.
That faith, a personal experience, and that the holiness of the person would be a central matter of importance. And I see a lot of that coming back into kind of our modern air. Those I think that are coming into their foreign faith, whether that'd be like the young, restless and reformed or others, others, even this cage stage.
Kind of error that everybody goes through to some extent or another is in many ways, kind of this further type of reformation, this emphasis of really working out what it means to be reformed more intensely in your actual own life, in the churches, worship, and then in society as a whole. And so that's really what separates.
The Dutch from the English with respect to how they [00:31:00] were internalizing and metabolizing what it meant to be reformed. They had different influences pressing upon them. And so a lot of me resonates with what's being said here. Just the sheer volume of information of reformed theology that was happening in another lens at this time.
Beaky writes, and this is just astounding to me, that there were more theological books. Printed in the 17th century Netherlands, then all countries combined. So you see like a people and an emphasis that we're hungry for real spiritual living. And I've always thought that is the real value of the reform tradition, is that it's not just this disassociation or dissonance between what is.
We give theological ascent to, but how that, the ology actually shapes the way in which we interrelate with God such that the theology itself provides a grand superstructure, which for us to relate better to God because we understand how he desires to be worshiped and understood. And in that understanding propels us into deeper relationship because we are working with the [00:32:00] spirits of God in the way that God actually intends.
So there was a lot in here just about, I think, in other words, there's so much in this that we should identify with. And there are these touch points, which we. Regularly? No, like the canons of Dort. But beyond that, we should understand why the canons came out of this environment and why God used his particular place.
Because there were people concerned for his glory and for the glory, how that color was displayed and just their average everyday living.
Tony Arsenal: [00:32:26] Yeah. And you know, there, there's one other element of, of this further reformation that I think bears a little bit of, , explaining is that in England, the main threat, the main theological threat in England. Was a return to Roman Catholicism for, for most of the English puritanism is history, you know, until we get sort of passed like the English civil war that returned to Roman Catholicism and sort of the trapping, maybe not formally, but the, the theology of Rome, the, the outward vestments and the outward, , [00:33:00] kind of denial of the regular principle by introducing foreign elements into worship.
That was the primary threat in. , , English puritanism in, , Dutch puritanism or Dutch for the reformation theology. The primary threat was not a return to Rome, but was actually, if you really want to put it on a spectrum, it was sliding off the other end. And. Like driving too far away from what the church had already though the ground that the church had already plowed.
And this takes the form in, in the Netherlands, in the time period we're talking about primarily in the Armenian Ramond strands, which we will definitely talk about. But then even after that. So Simeon ism, which is almost like, I don't actually think there's that much of a difference between Arminianism and aneurysm in terms of philosophical perspectives.
The main differences come in and that sustained pianism started to renegotiate a NIC and creed theology as well, in addition to sort of the Augustinian aneurysm of the Dutch church at the time. . So, so the, the way that these two [00:34:00] things happened, because a lot of what was going on in England had to do with practice, had to do with vestments and prayer books and candles and actual, like elements of experiential worship.
The Puritan reformation focused more on practical, , practical understandings of how the regulative principle applies. And dr Beaky makes this point in the chapter in the Netherlands. Theology sort of kept the place of a science. And that's, I think that's part of why theological treatises were printed so much in, in the Netherlands where we've talked about it in England, they published sermons and that was the primary publishing vehicle of the Puritan reformation in the Netherlands. This was still largely an academic debate within the Academy that was spilling over to the church where in England, it was really more of an ecclesiastical debate that was happening.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:34:51] that's a great point. One of the things I think that, , before we get like to the camera. And all the amazing stuff that happened there that was articulated and documented. I [00:35:00] love that he emphasizes how, because it's a book about preaching, how all that shaped preaching and there was so much in this that was like, man, he's just, these guys are just diagnosing the state and the status of our times because he mentions that.
Out of this for the Dutch reformation, there was a sense that preachers are not just teachers, but evangelical comforters. I love this idea of evangelical comforters, and he quotes voting yes, or he provides a quote from him that says ministers of the word should be the best friends of those suffering from afflictions of conscience.
For those ought to be above all, to be equipped with the gift and art of constantly . And he goes on to say that Vodi is, describes the training of ministers as piety. Joined with knowledge, and I think there's so many preachers that we have today, whether they be in the public eye are not that famous or otherwise just common that are more teachers rather than evangelical comforters or their comforters that have a different type of degree where the comforting by way of providing [00:36:00] false hope or some kind of sensationalism that makes it seem like all we have to do is just live our best life now.
That was like a not too veiled jab at somebody in particular. So this idea of having like piety joined with knowledge. So what I wonder in my own life, and maybe as a challenge to those who are listening is, you know, in modern times the term theology often has this connotation that it is abstract, it's philosophical and it's irrelevant.
And the Dutch saw theology as a vibrant way of life. And I wonder, can we say that about ourselves and our theology, that it actually gives vibrancy to our life, not just more egg headedness not just more and more knowledge, not just, we can quote certain things or perhaps we're better at debates or we can speak into people's lives, but there's some kind of specificity of detail in theological expression.
But does it make us more vibrant followers and more obedient and Holy in longing after pursuing and being [00:37:00] conformed to Jesus Christ? That I think is the real challenge that's embedded in the further Dutch reformation.
Tony Arsenal: [00:37:06] Yeah. And you know, we've kind of talked a little bit in the past about some of the differences. We haven't talked at length about it, but some of the differences between, almost like the tone or the temperature of the English confessions versus the continental confessions. , and the Heidelberg catechism.
The Canon's adored and the Belgium confession form the three forms of unity in the Dutch church, and they are much more practical and pastoral and warm. , it's funny because it's true that, , the controversy in England was more. Practical than it was scientific. And the controversy in another lens was more scientific than it was practical.
But the confessions are almost exactly crossed that the confessions in England are very technical. They're very, , they're very focused on doctrine. And that's not to say that there aren't, . [00:38:00] pastoral concerns that shine through, but that's not the way that they're written. They're primarily written as technical documents, but in, , the, the Dutch tradition, you know, the Heidelberg catechism, what is my only comfort in life and death?
Like that's, that's designed to start off a person's. A theological understanding with turning to God for comfort. Where in the confession in are the catechisms in England. That's not, not necessarily the case, and there are pros and cons to doing that. There's a reason that I hold to the Westminster tradition versus the continental tradition.
We can talk about that a different time, but it's important as we look at the two, and it's not as though they're contradictory, they're different emphases. There are different focuses. A lot is a lot of institutions are actually moving. To have, like Westminster, California, for example, they, they require professors to affirm all six of these documents instead of just three or three.
But you know, it's important to note that because a lot of times the canons of doors, the Senate, the Senate rulings at [00:39:00] Dordt. They're seen as this technical theological document, but if you read them, they're actually really, really involved with pastoral concern. Things like the assurance of salvation, things like, how do I know that I'm saying, how do I come to have the knowledge of my salvation?
How do I come to have the joy of my salvation? I'm not that that's not present in the Western tradition, but it certainly is not this cold scientific theological document that sometimes people think it is.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:39:28] no, and maybe it's helpful as Beaky enumerates in this chapter to really speak briefly as we get into the canons, because. That's one of the things that we need to recognize it as like a major signpost on this road of reform theology and so much was accomplished there that really all of us, I think you kind of said this before and planted, at least that we, we all kind of stand on whether or not we actually recognize that that's what's happened in this particular error.
And so the Senate of door, it was. Call to settle, I guess you could call it a raging controversy in the Dutch churches when this professor, maybe [00:40:00] people have heard of college, Jacob Arminius promulgated a theological perspective that departed from the reform faith and a number of points. And so the canons of door are there formed answers to the five points are a minimalism.
They're really confined to soteriology, but this gets back to what you referenced before, these declarations and the Redmond strides that are occurred. At at the Senate of door. You want to speak to that? Maybe. I don't know how deeply we want to get into all of those. I do want to say that at the outset here, even if you haven't read this chapter, you should, you will be immensely blessed if you go pick up a copy of the cans of door and just read through that sucker because it is.
Glorious, and I think your point will be easily proved when people read through that because they're going to get fired up at the end of it because they're going to say like, there's so much in that that is so practical for just how you understand life, how you see the world view, how you understand Christianity and the scriptures, that it's impossible to walk away from that and not think this is like intensely directed in a pastoral way to the soul.
[00:41:00] Tony Arsenal: [00:41:00] Yeah. And you know, the best copy or the best way to find it. Obviously it's free online. You get all sorts of translations. , I don't have the title of the book. , in front of me, but, , Bob Godfrey, formerly the president of, , Westminster seminary, California. I think he's the chair or the chancellor or whatever of reformation trust right now.
He, he's, or of Ligonier. , he just published a new translation and introduction to the canons of dork, , to celebrate the, I was at the 500 year anniversary, whatever, 400 years. , and it's very good. It's very good. And he explains the pastoral application, so go pick it up. It's not super expensive and it's very accessible.
And you know, I, I think it does make sense for us to just quickly go through the five points that the Armenians lodged because. You know, I remember I took a course in seminary that was divine sovereignty and human responsibility. And we read the five points of the Armenian Remonstrance. And if you're not reading carefully, and this was actually intentional, right?
So, , there's lots of good evidence [00:42:00] that that Jacob Arminius and his followers were not exactly dealing, honestly with. , with what was going on. So Jacob Arminius would teach all this stuff in class, but he didn't publish any of it, and none of it got published until after he died. And they found his notes in his desk.
, he, he would say one thing on doctrinal examination by the Synod, and then he would teach a different thing in the class. , it's not all that different than certain things that are happening at a certain reform seminaries in Philadelphia that I won't name right now, but, . The five points of Arminianism as written in the original Ramond strands are actually written to sound like reformed theology.
So if you don't read them carefully, you don't understand the theology, they actually look like, well, what's the big deal? They're not all that different. And one of the things that happens if you talk to a, an Armenian, if you listen to like Remonstrance pod or the synergist podcast, which is kind of like
An Armenian version of our show. I mean, in a lot of ways it's the same kind of show. It's just a different theological perspective. They take this approach, like see [00:43:00] Arminius affirms a salvation by faith alone and, and you know, justification by faith alone. But you have to understand the actual theology before you can say that and see why it's wrong.
It's also very similar to the way that the federal vision theology works. That on the surface of it, the way the words on the paper, unless you really understand how they're using the words. It doesn't seem all that far off. So I want to run through really quickly these five points. There's a super good summary on pages two 54 and two 55 and just to prove.
That this happens. When I was reading this, I lost count, kind of lost track of where I was in, in the section, and for a second I thought that I was reading his summary of the response. I had to like go back. I found a spot that I was like, that's not right. And I had to go back and realize I was actually reading the Remonstrance so I don't, I don't know if these were the orders that they put them in or not.
I would assume they probably are, but the first is that God. This is a quote, God eternally decreed to save believers in Christ who persevere to [00:44:00] the end and to dam unbelievers. On first blush, that doesn't sound like that's that bad, but the issue is God doesn't elect specific individuals into those categories.
He elects the conditions, and then people place themselves in those categories by their face. So he, he elects what the conditions are to be saved, not necessarily who will fulfill those conditions. , 0.2 is that Christ died again, quoting Christ died for every man so that he obtained salvation for them all.
But only believers actually enjoy the salvation. So this is what's called a universal atonement, or hypothetical universalism is another name for it, although that's slightly different. But the idea is that Christ obtained all the merit to, , to save. Anyone who will come to him. But some of the people who could come to him don't actually avail themselves of that.
So when we talk about election, we talk about Christ accomplishing [00:45:00] our salvation from finished, from start to start to end, right? All the way at the beginning, all the way at the end, and every step of the way Christ is accomplishing it such that it's a done deal. What the Armenians were saying and what the Armenians in our day are saying is more like, well, Christ fills up the bank account with enough money to pay for all the debt of all of the people in all history.
But unless you go to the bank account bank and actually withdraw the funds to apply to your own account, then then you don't actually, you don't make use of those funds that are in the account. , 0.3 is that right? Is that man cannot produce faith or any saving grace of his free will. He must be born again by the Holy spirit, but the sinner may obtain faith and regeneration by hearing God's word grieving over his sin and desiring grace.
So this again sounds great, like, Whoa, man, can't produce faith. Well, the issue is that. For us, regeneration proceeds a justification and precedes faith. God had regeneration is actually the creation of faith [00:46:00] in us. But for the Armenian regeneration follows faith. So a person goes to , , hear the gospel preached, and based on how they engage their will to either trust what is being said or not trust, what is being said.
That's what brings about regeneration. So
Jesse Schwamb: [00:46:17] Right? There must be a predisposition
Tony Arsenal: [00:46:18] Right? Although they don't produce faith, faith is produced in them as a response to what they do versus the correct biblical way where everything we do as a response to the faith that cry or that Christ creates through his spirit in us.
, 0.4 is that man cannot do any good works apart from God's grace, but that God's grace is not irresistible. And this is actually something that, . The Lutherans fall a little bit arrive as well, is that as soon as you make a the reception of grace contingent on the freewill decision of the creature, , what you've done is you've created a synergistic model in which we actually do control the flow of grace into our life.
In the [00:47:00] Armenian model, it's a positive control, like you have to go get the grace more or less. In the Lutheran view, you basically have to not stop it from coming in, but either way your will is what determines whether or not grace actually has an effect in your life. And then 0.5 is that believers have in Christ all they need to persevere.
But if they're negligent, they can lose God's grace and fall away. And again, this is, this is that thing where they want to say, well, all you need is Christ's grace. But you have to make use of it. So it, and again, places perseverance. It places justification and places regeneration into our control.
Whether or not we choose to persevere until the end. We have everything we need according to the Armenian . But we have to choose to make use of it. So again, it goes back to that same perspective of the bank account is full enough to pay for all of the sins of all of the people, but you have to go to the bank to get the money, or you know, the strength to persevere in the [00:48:00] faith is available to all, but you have to actually engage that strength and engage that supply in order for it to be efficacious for you.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:48:10] Yeah. My estimation, if you read through these declarations in the Redmond strands, which again, you can find, and I think that in truth, any Armenian that's committed to them would absolutely agree with what's being expressed here. Because again, this is all. Like a better way of saying it, like public knowledge, like there's nothing secretive about these particular points here.
What's odd to me is, in my estimation, these have far more in common with the Roman Catholic perspective than they do with the kind of like evangelical Christian perspective. There's, there's a lot more here that's like connected with them and that I would say they'd would fall into line and it starts with a statement that seems like almost like universally agreeable.
But you will see, as you kind of noted, it's the working out of that expression, how it actually behaves, where there's a vast separation. There's a chasm between what we believe and [00:49:00] you know, I think that basically what the Senate of doors and the cannons came into fill a gap. What was this idea that, well, does that stuff really matter?
And the answer was at absolutely matters and it's absolutely pastoral. And so like to follow up on your good recommendation, just to note it in case anybody's actually interested and because we always say we have show notes, but those never actually materialized. The book you referenced before by w Robert Godfrey is called saving the reformation, the pastoral theology of the cans of door.
And it was just published last year. So it is brand new. It's like eight, nine bucks on Kindle. I mean, that's fantastic. So saving the reformation, the pastoral theology of the, of Dorit by Robert Godfrey.
Tony Arsenal: [00:49:42] Yeah, and you know, this is, this is going to be one of those, uh, controversial statements that most people in our audience are not going to be that upset by. We may have a few stray Lutherans that still listen to the show once in a while that are going to get really ticked off. But the, the real distinction in a [00:50:00] Christian theology is not between Roman Catholics and Protestants.
Right? And th this wasn't the issue in the reformation. I mean, it sounds crazy to say that, but the real distinction in theology is between those who believe that God initiates and accomplishes salvation from start to finish, and those who believe that God does not. And the, the Ramond strands, the Molinas, which was a subdivision of Roman Catholicism, the Roman Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox.
And I would argue, although they don't believe it this way, but I would argue the Lutherans. They all believe in one way or another that God does not initiate and accomplish from a salvation from start to finish. Now, the Lutherans, the Lutherans, I think this is a blow, one of those blessing in consistencies that they don't understand or they don't care about the inconsistency cause they're more comfortable with loose ends than we are.
They don't understand that the fact that you can stop God from saving you means that [00:51:00] you have to engage your will to allow him to save you. But that actually places them on the same side of that distinction as the Armenians and the Roman Catholics. So they're in a slightly different category, but the Armenian theology of the, and this is why he.
Titled the book, saving the reformation is because the Armenian Remonstrance, , they were making a move back towards Rome. They were making a move back towards Roman Catholicism back towards . Semi or full-on Pelagianism that, and that's why the canons of Dort make the association between Roman strength, theology and Pelagianism.
It's not just a, , it's not just a rhetorical jab to associate them with Pelagianism. They were rightfully identifying that at the end of the day, the difference between Christianity and polygenism is whether or not God accomplished a salvation or whether or not man. Accomplish his salvation and on, on Roman Catholicism and Arminianism, arguably, [00:52:00] I would say on Lutheranism, arguably, , God accomplishes salvation.
With your assistance, right? God, that's why it's more like some I polygenism is God provides you what you need in the form of aid and then you take care of it. So he either pretty provides you with grace and you take care of it by cooperating with that grace. In Roman Catholicism, God provides you grace.
In Arminianism and you take care of it by trusting in that grace and , , by kind of mustering up a trust in that grace and a faithfulness to that grace. And in Lutheranism, God accomplishes salvation with your aid, by you not trying to stop him. And so all of those systems at the end of the day result in this lack of assurance that you, you can't quite deal with if you're in one of those theological perspectives.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:52:45] that is absolutely true. I think there's something in there about magnitude as well in the sense that. I think a lot of those perspectives, what they're saying, either explicitly or implicitly in the final analysis is that, well, Jesus came to make [00:53:00] bad people good. And what we're saying here is no, and this is exactly the kind of an adored affirm, is that God came to meek to make dead people alive.
And so God does not give men the power to believe if they so choose. Instead, he raises them from the deadness of sin and renews their hearts and wills that they will willingly choose to believe. And that's like a huge chasm to cross. I think that's part of the problem is we seem to be speaking the same language in some ways.
But there's this sense that really man is not that much worse off because he has the capacity to be able to believe if merely somebody just explain it to him in decent terms. And that's not what we're saying at all. And that's not what Paul says at all. Like, I've heard this argument so many times that like.
What Paul is saying when he says like, we are dead in our trespasses and sins. I've actually heard people say, well, he's being hyperbolic. It's just a metaphor. And I always say, did you think Paul was like a stupid guy? Like not only is he writing under the influence of the Holy spirit, but in his own logic, he knows exactly what he's saying.
[00:54:00] He's not trying to make the case. While man just was confused and clouded, had a. A mind which was distracted and not clear on specific matters of theology. He saying you were dead, you were immobile, you were totally incapacitated, and so the only way that you might have new life, just we speak about these dry bones having flushed again coming together is if God himself.
Breeds into that. And because of that, you can't give yourself CPR. Like I'm really convinced that that expression that Paul uses of being dead in your trespasses is not his way of just trying to say, well, things were pretty bad for you. Things were hopeless for all of us. And so because they were so hopeless, there was nothing that we could do on our own to save ourselves.
And so every credit. Every motor come of ability must be tied to God himself and not to us. And I think that anybody who compromises that, not only is that like a slippery slope, but it shows that that's just our sinful nature, wanting it in [00:55:00] some way to show that we have some sense of responsibility and accountability in our own saving, and that's super harmful.
So that's why this is a pastoral document the end of the day, because it's all about the fact that. If I believe in some way, no matter how small that I did something. To ingratiate myself toward God. How is it that I cannot also believe in as a logical consequence that there is something that I could do to cause that to come into jeopardy?
And so this is actually the greatest and most significant expression of love that God in his love would predestine us outside of our control in a transcendent way and sign, seal and deliver us with the Holy spirit into salvation. Because he is good and gracious and controls all things not because we have some part to play in it.
Tony Arsenal: [00:55:49] Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when we're trying to talk about these theological distinctions, some of, sometimes I'll admit, like sometimes drawing this line and saying there's two [00:56:00] types of things, like that's a heuristic device. It's obviously more nuanced than that. But that said. Arminianism and Roman Catholicism rely on the facts that there is some Island of either righteousness or neutralness some Island within the human person that can operate uninfluenced by the effects of sin and strive towards God.
Enrollment, Catholicism, it has more to do with good works. And with initiation in, in our mini aneurysm, it has more to do with, , to kind of taking a step in faith towards God. But it's still operating out of an unredeemed part of you or an uncorrupted part of you. It's, it's this part of you that's neither redeemed nor corrupted.
, Lutheranism does. Acknowledge that there is no uncorrupted part of you, and this is where they're inconsistent. So I don't want to belabor that anymore. But that brings us to why this chapter is important and how it relates to reform preaching is that for the Dutch reformed and for the [00:57:00] Presbyterians and for the reform Baptist.
And I would argue for anyone who is, who is properly reformed in our context now. The preaching of the gospel, not exclusively, but especially on the Lord's day by a license ordained man who is properly equipped and properly recognized by the church. And then he says, this explicitly is a channel of God's supernatural power.
And, and one of the things that I think is really strong in the Dutch confessional tradition as opposed to the Westminster tradition, is that this is made explicit in the reformed, , continental tradition that this, you know, whether it's the second Helvetica convention, which says that the word of God preached is the word of God.
Right? It's, it's not just someone explaining the word of God or the word of God, but the preaching itself is prophetically the word of God in a different sense than the thus sayeth the Lord. Prophets of the old Testament or the thus sayeth the Lord apostles of the new [00:58:00] Testament, but the faithful proclamation of the word of God, of the scriptures on the Lord's day, especially on the Lord's day.
Is God's means to bring about that restoration of life that you're talking about. The, the CPR that God utilizes the defibrillator shock panels, that that starts the heart of the dead man is the preaching of the word, particularly by an ordained individual on the Lord's day. And that that's what we need to understand.
That's where it comes into this preaching. And you know. You've preached on occasion, I preach on occasion a kind of lower case P cause neither of us are ordained. But when you and I step into the pulpit. There's a, there's a gravity in a reality that as someone who is bringing the word to the congregation, I either have the ability to bring a false word and operate as a false lower case P profit.
Or I have the ability with God's help to bring the true word of God, which is efficacious for salvation. For those [00:59:00] who hear it, that's a huge, a huge. Task and it's a huge privilege, but to recognize that that's the way that God brings salvation to his people, whether it's justification or sanctification, that's the primary vehicle that God brings salvation to his people.
That's a huge thing for us from her, and I think that is probably the most distinctive reformed point that one can make.
Jesse Schwamb: [00:59:25] Right on. You're exactly right. And as Beaky draws that, this chapter to a close, he says that very thing he has a heading under, which he really kind of tries to flush it out in the heading is preaching is the channel of supernatural power. I love that. I mean, that's just so, so basic and precise. That I thought it might shock us a little bit.
That is the, the preaching is the channel of supernatural power, and he goes on to say, as you've kind of already articulated, that God does not save sinners against their wills, but what he does instead is he saves their wills and indeed their whole souls from the reigning power of sin. [01:00:00] This is the problem we have is we team seem to think about the person as this is some weird like bifurcation or distinction that what God is doing is saving a person.
And so therefore somehow the person can't be in juxtaposition to the will. What God is doing is saving the will. And this is so intuitive to us that like if you're a person that is a parent, if you have children, then you already know this because you know that your children will themselves to do things that are dumb.
And so the most loving thing that you can do is override that will like, don't jump off the couch headfirst like that. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's so strange that when it comes to spiritual matters, that we'd be so indignant as to say, no, I know what is best, and I don't want God to ever override that.
Because that when some way make me less human, that is a nonsensical argument. It's certainly not an argument that displays that God is loving. He'd be actually the exact opposite if he wasn't willing to do that. And this is exactly the kind of thing that we need God to do, is to save the thing that we are so stubborn and stiff necked [01:01:00] against, which is we think we know the best way.
And so when God saves that, not the person, he saves the will, and so doing the will and transforming the heart, then of course we come to Christ. Were suddenly with eyes opened as it were, obtaining in advance by faith, the beatific vision so that we can see how beautiful and glorious everything is that God is.
And so we are drawn to him with that irresistible grace.
Tony Arsenal: [01:01:26] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this, this chapter, you know, it's interesting because there was the chapter on the, , directory of public workshop, and then there's this chapter that is more or less on the canons of Dort and Beaky is using these two chapters in this really brilliant way. I think. To show and to demonstrate the theological underpinnings.
Of everything else he's saying about reform preaching. So you have this intro introductory section where he's kind of explaining what experiential preaching is. You have these historical snippets and you have these two [01:02:00] chapters that underlie this theological foundation for how it is we preach the regular principle of worship and why it is we preach, because preaching is God's chosen means of salvation and worship.
Is a vehicle of, of God communicating that grace to us through the, through the preached word, through the seeing of Psalms and hymns and songs, and through the ministry of God's ordained agents. , it really is, I think, kind of a brilliant way to put this book together.
Jesse Schwamb: [01:02:29] That is absolutely beautiful. I, I feel like I, before we end this episode, I need to admit something that's connected to the Netherlands. So one of the times in my life, like I can count on one hand that I've been the most panicked happened when I was in the Dutch country land. So . Briefly, my undergraduate degree is in international business.
And so that meant that the program of study that I had required me to go abroad to study, and I was with a group of students in the Netherlands, which was an amazing experience because it was like [01:03:00] everything in sound of music, like on steroids. And they actually rented bicycles for us. So like we would go everywhere on bicycle.
And so one night after a particularly long day of studying, I decided to go out and just. Ride kind of like extemporaneously into the Dutch country land. And in so doing, I turned into like what I can only describe as like a Dutch development. I mean everything there is Dutch, so it, I guess just normal development of houses, like very classical houses.
And I quickly realized I was, I was totally lost. Like I got completely turned around. It was like one of these insanely large, like circular developments. I couldn't find my way out. I started to panic because it was getting dark and because I don't speak the language and I was like, I'm not sure how I'm going to try to communicate to somebody like where, who I am and where it is I'm supposed to be, because I don't even really know the place that we were staying.
It was like kind of like a, a student compounds like a retreat center off somewhere. And so it's one of the few times in my life that I can remember being like just explicitly outwardly [01:04:00] panicked, like just writing. And if you've ever been lost and you, the panic just makes your lostness worse because you're just, you're not thinking about where you been.
You're just trying to turn down all these streets. And so by God's grace, I found the way out, like by pure accident, which is to say that God himself led me out. But every time I think of the Netherlands, I think of, I get like this little pit in my stomach of being lost on a bike in this weird like countryside and not knowing how to get out of like a dustup like we're talking about like.
Like traditional, like thatched roofs, like it was beautiful, but in that moment it was just like a straight panic. I was like, this is where I live now because I'm not going to be able to get out. I should, I should just go have a family adopt me.
Tony Arsenal: [01:04:40] That's funny. Yeah. I don't know how to top that story.
I was waiting for it to make like the theological pivot and it just didn't.
Jesse Schwamb: [01:04:49] Well, here's, here's the theological pivot, , because now I'm going to force it because you threw it out there. And that is, I feel like, honestly, and this is no joke though, it's gonna sound like one is that's a bit like [01:05:00] the Armenian perspective. It is circular. If causes you to get lost in the own argument, it's self referencing.
And so this idea that somehow. We have to buy our own theological and spiritual bootstraps, pull ourselves up to cooperate with grace is against everything that Paul says. And that's what makes this thing again so beautifully pastoral, because it releases people into the full scope of the scriptures, which says God has done it all.
Jesus has paid everything, and he never delivers up the baby to be left on the doorstep. And so we've talked before about what it means. To bear fruit in keeping with repentance. That is a separate issue here. What we're talking about, the fact is that God is faithful to his promises, that the death of Christ is sufficient for all but efficient for the elect, and that he has in mind those whom he chose to save because if he saved just one.
That would be the most like cosmic Millie big expression [01:06:00] of grace that ever existed. And so for him to save any is just proof that he is a God who loves
Tony Arsenal: [01:06:08] Yeah. Well that's about as good a place to end it as any way.
So next week we're going to be doing a topical episode. I don't know what it is yet. ,
Jesse Schwamb: [01:06:19] no, it's question cast.
Tony Arsenal: [01:06:20] It's question cast, but that we never know what it is. Are we
Jesse Schwamb: [01:06:24] Oh, okay. Sorry. Sorry.
Tony Arsenal: [01:06:25] one topic? Are we doing a bunch of little topics?
We never know. We never know until we get
Jesse Schwamb: [01:06:30] Who knows? There's questions abound and before we go, you should remind everybody. What is the second challenge that you issued earlier in the episode.
Tony Arsenal: [01:06:38] The second challenge is now I would love to hear the funniest answers for what is significant about episode one 79 of the reform brotherhood. Why is episode one 79 a special episode? So give me your funny answers. The winner, , which is subjectively assessed by me and Jesse, don't call your lawyer.
Where you know, don't, [01:07:00] don't ask me. , the winner gets a reform brotherhood t-shirt, , and it's going to be good. I'm excited. I'm waiting for your funny answers folks.
Jesse Schwamb: [01:07:08] Soma info@reformedbrotherhood.com all right, well, Tony, until next time, love everyone.
Tony Arsenal: [01:07:15] did you just screw up our tagline?
I could fix that in post, but I'm not going to.
Jesse Schwamb: [01:07:22] Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, so here's the thing. Halfway through, I was a new, we're drawing to a close, , which is going to be delayed because I'm talking now, but I got excited because I realized like, so you ever start to formulate a sentence and your brain is having a whole nother thought process at the same
time. I started to realize that I haven't given the clothes, like I haven't given the, like intentional call in quite some time. And as that thought happens, the other portion of my brain that was providing the words just shut down.
Tony Arsenal: [01:07:55] Well, this is why you don't get to do it.
Jesse Schwamb: [01:07:57] Yeah. Well, I've, I've lost, [01:08:00] I've lost the privilege. It's, , I, I turn it over to you brother.
Tony Arsenal: [01:08:03] no. After you my friend.
Jesse Schwamb: [01:08:05] No, no. I honestly can't remember what it is. My mind is totally left me.
Tony Arsenal: [01:08:08] All right, well until next time, Jesse, honor everyone.
Jesse Schwamb: [01:08:11] that was it. I love the brotherhood.