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Tony and Jesse continue the discussion about the Prophet Micah, and what he has to say to our generation.

Jesse Schwamb 0:10
Welcome to Episode 154 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony. And we are proud members of the Society of Reformed Podcaster.

Hey, brother.

Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey, brother, I heard some frantic page turning going on in our introduction.

Tony Arsenal 0:36
Yes, I. I'm all set with a little bit of Calvin's commentaries for today's show. I'm pretty stoked.

Jesse Schwamb 0:41
I bet you I appreciate that. You say that. Like, that's something that's unusual to this particular series. I know you got Calvin always

Tony Arsenal 0:48
at the retro. He's kind of he kind of lives with me. He's like, everywhere.

Jesse Schwamb 0:54
that for some reason just reminded me of that old him. He walks with me. He talks with me.

Tony Arsenal 0:59
Yeah, that's supposed to be about Jesus cow. Oh, I know.

Jesse Schwamb 1:01
I know. But I mean, it just seemed so reminiscent the way they described that. But speaking of Calvin and speaking of reformed, which This podcast is somewhat about, do you mind if I launch into an affirmation for this week? Let's do it. I figured you couldn't turn me down. So I'm actually just affirming with all the little fun intricacies interconnected things that happen in a culture and especially their form tradition. So my example is, I have this good friend who's a pastor, he has three children, his youngest son whose only son is just under the age of five. And recently, he asked his son, if he's also a pastor, if I didn't say that. I've recently he asked his son, if he would like to be a pastor, and his son responded with no, I don't really like beards. So I just love that this little child has grown up with this distinct impression that with being a pastor, is the requirement of facial hair. And you know, a lot of people take that very seriously in the film tradition. There's good history there. And so I'm just affirming with all the little fun things that we can kind of all the inside jokes like the inside baseball, Reformed theology, which is equal parts, like the little pieces of theology that we talked about, but also the little ways in which we behave in the things that we like.

Tony Arsenal 2:20
Yeah, I think that's one of the qualifications for elder isn't it? It's in it's in the greatest thing. That's actually a must have a beard.

Jesse Schwamb 2:28
Yes. How long have you had your beard?

Tony Arsenal 2:31
I don't even know. I mean, actually, I think I know that I think about it. I started growing my beard because your little sister told me she liked beards when I first met her. So I've always loved started I started growing my beard to impress your sister.

Jesse Schwamb 2:51
So nice. never good. has come out of that.

Tony Arsenal 2:55
I know. I know. It's true. I mean, it's it's it's a chore sometimes although your your beard is much more like wizard style than mine. Mine is very like I keep mine very like very trim. It's like just just pass a five o'clock shadow most of the time, which is pretty easy to maintain.

Jesse Schwamb 3:14
Are you equating me with like the john Knox style beard it would you say he's wizard like

Tony Arsenal 3:20
a maybe like Covenanters a different level of beard. Oh, man. Right now your beard is pretty trim. Sometimes after you let it go for a while. It gets like a little out of control, which I love.

Jesse Schwamb 3:32
I like it when it's out of control. You're the only one apparently. But yeah. I was just curious if you remembered when you started while you did. And you have a great story for that. That's

Tony Arsenal 3:40
Yeah, yeah, I think we were out. Everybody was out getting drinks early on in the first semester. And I don't know. She just said I like a guy with a beer. And I was like, mental note girl beard.

Jesse Schwamb 3:52
boom, done. Deal.

Unknown Speaker 3:54
Yeah. All right. How about you performing with this?

Tony Arsenal 3:59
I am affirming a book called. And this is like the most Puritan of all titles. Although it's not written by Puritan. It's the distinctiveness of Baptist covenant theology, a comparison between 17th century particular Baptists and Pado Baptist federalism, which is a book by default pass call, sorry, pass called insult. Did I get it right the first time, my brain is all messed up. But put those two words somewhere into Google. There's probably not that many of them. But it's a great book. And really the kind of the thesis of the book is to show how particularly 1689 federal theology grew out of a difference in Ecclesiastes ology, rather than some sort of specific difference in Sacramento ology. So he's arguing that the the covenant theology that undergirds the theology of the particular Baptists in England and the Presbyterians was different. And that that difference is what drew over there sacramental theology, where most articulation of the that account, start with a difference in sacramental theology, and work the way out from that. So I'm not super far into it. But I've heard really good things about it. So far, it's been just a just a pleasant, kind of a low key read. It's if you're looking for a good introduction to 6989 federalism, this is a really good one to go with.

Jesse Schwamb 5:23
You have to admit, when I heard you say that title, the first thing that popped in my head was Yeah, this is probably a low key read. This is my really chill. It actually

Tony Arsenal 5:29
is pretty straightforward. The title is like, pretty lofty, but the book is actually really approachable.

Jesse Schwamb 5:36
Well, you summarized it. Well, it's a puritanical title, like I bought recently because of our conversations, talking about reform preaching by Joel Viki, that it would be awesome if you just dropped like William Perkins or john Oh, and like, take him to the Banner of Truth trust. Yeah, let them see the titles. I feel like they would be like, what are these lazy short titles? I have no idea what these books are about.

Tony Arsenal 5:57
Yeah, yeah. That's that. Your Spirit? That was your impression? Yes. Are you wearing red boots?

Jesse Schwamb 6:07
Listen, that's a personal question.

Tony Arsenal 6:11
So what are you denying tonight, Jesse?

Jesse Schwamb 6:13
So this is a little bit of a no, it is a serious denial. And usually I have like more of the fun time. But I've been thinking about this a lot recently, because I've just, it's not necessarily I've seen some examples of this. But I've just been processing this more. And I'm denying against Christians using vulgar language on any scale. And it's because my personal experience with this has been are not all I think, does the Bible Speak very strongly, Paul, in particular, about the Christian not peppering their everyday conversation with vulgarities or vulgar speech, or swearing of almost any kind, you know, especially because that's common these days to use like a badge of hipness or authenticity or just show like I'm like everybody else. But I think actually, that's the very problem that when you hear somebody who has professed to be a follower after Lord Jesus Christ, then at some point, use language that is similar to everybody else is expression that carries some kind of vulgar connotation by way of its historical connection or its connection in in culture, that just automatically wipes out the testimony in most cases, because Yeah, well, I think most people are speaking or most of our thinking, especially those who are non believers is this person talks just like me, they don't sound any different. And I actually think even if it is somewhat puritanical, that differentiation is such an opportunity for ministry that I think it's trivialized. Because we say things like, well, we should be able to justify the language that we use, because they're just words we can we can mean them to mean whatever we want them to me, right? I mean them in the way that everybody else is interpreting. But the problem is everybody else is interpreting and in that revenues, yeah. So I think it's, I just want to deny against that, because I've really seen that hurt the testimonies of some Christians recently. And what a shame is that it saddens me because they're not often realizing that's hurting their testimony. Yeah. And other people are quitting them with just kind of normal unbeliever lifestyle, only because the things that they say, and that's what's really awful. So we should just cut that stuff out. Because it's just not helpful. It doesn't help us to identify doesn't make us seem super cool. It just makes us seem plain and blind, compromising. And it's just one of those things where we're getting judged on the use of that language, even while we're trying to be, you know, really solid followers of Jesus. This just does so much of that if if only in the minds of those who are listening to us talk.

Tony Arsenal 8:33
Yeah, yeah. I mean, Jesus said, out of the heart, the mouth speaks. So when when you see certain, or hear certain kinds of words coming out of a person's mouth, whether they want to try to justify them or not, the words that are coming out of a person's mouth reflect what's in their heart. And so the question is, is, is what's in your heart, holiness and a desire to glorify God with your speech? Or is it profanity, right? And I mean, like, when we even talk about the difference between sanctified speech and profane speech, like that's a religious category, profanity, religious category, it's, it's the opposite of holy. And so when we say that someone is using profanity, we literally are saying that their speech is the opposite of sanctified. So I think I think you can get bogged down sometimes in in language, like you can sometimes overemphasize a particular word, and you can sort of make it a badge of honor that you abstain from a particular word, even if even if what that word represents is still in your heart, it actually really bothers me, you know, even like minced oaths, when people just swap out a word to make it slightly less profane. That actually bothers me almost as much as if they were just using the profane words sometimes, too.

Jesse Schwamb 9:50
Yeah, I'm with you. That's why I'm trying to be even like diplomatic in this denial. Because I've heard a lot of arguments over the years for this idea that language is fluid it is, and yet still carries very strong connotations. And so many Christians will say, Well, I'm not using profane language here. I'm just using language that's common to the culture. But I think it's really about the testimony. And I think as Christians, you're right, we almost we did duty to hold ourselves to a little bit of a higher standard there with where profanity and language swapping comes into this kind of Venn diagram where they need to overlap one another. So here's an example. And I'll just use the language because it's not horrible language, per se, but its language I become a Christian and convicted about so this idea of like, you know, kind of just expressing shock or something, and using the word holy as any part of that. So yeah, cow, for instance, I've just been convinced that like, that is language that is reserved for God, always, all the time, in every situation. And so even something as small as that you're right, because when it's when it's expressing is a lack of connectivity between the mind and the heart with respect to how we speak and express ourselves. So I'm just trying to get that more in line. But I think that Christians, by and large, use far too much language. And oftentimes, I've ever been in a situation I know, you've seen this on like the internet, at least, particularly among sometimes popular pastors, where they want to push out, they want to have a little bit of shock and what they're saying. So they'll use language purposefully. And then they'll use that as an excuse to say, See, I'm trying to draw you in, I'm trying to get your attention. And that's just unnecessary, in my opinion, that is not a strong witness at all.

Tony Arsenal 11:28
It's just lazy to I mean, it's funny I used to have, you know, you run into people who say, like, well, I, you know, I just use that language to make a point. And when you ask them, like, why are you not able to make your point in in without using that? Well, yeah, I mean, I could I could make my point without using it. Well, then why don't you? Well, why should I have to because the Bible says not to use unholy and corrupting language. Well, that's not unholy and corrupting. What would you say that in front of your pastor? Well, no, but I mean, like, it's, when you push right on it, like, it's, it's really clear, even, you know, it's funny, even in like the secular world, there's certain words that you have a context for, like, you're not going to go into an important business meeting, and drop a bunch of profanity. So why is it that that word, in a business context, you understand it's not acceptable? But when you're using it in your common parlance, you're like, Oh, well, it's no big deal. I think you're absolutely right. Like, we need to be the people who are the most careful about our speech, and even for a theological reason, right? God created language. And God is the word like, that's it that we've talked about this how like the very nature of God is tied to verbal revelation. And so when we use our words in a careless way, we're actually imaging God in a certain way that is not accurate to who God is. And that's why you know, people think of the third commandment just in terms of like saying God's name vainly or if they're, you know, if they're pretty well versed in the cast isms, in sort of bearing God's name and sort of being a Christian and not really acting as a Christian. But even just using language, in a profane way, is imaging God in reverse. And so we're committing blasphemy when we don't honor God by using sanctified and pure language insofar as we can. So I think that's a really great point.

Jesse Schwamb 13:24
So this was just my call, drawing all that to a point to just encourage us to have more of that sanctified language and to be super thoughtful, and maybe even more conservative, not because we have a list of do's and don'ts with respect to what we say, but because loving God, and showing forth a witness that points others to God to that vision of God, as you said, by way of even the things that we say, is so important. And what's odd is, this is a small thing, in many ways. You know, I'm kind of encouraging all of us to be careful what we say and just not use certain words. And what's strange is how just doing something that's small. people notice that they really noticed that, especially in the place where I work with the other friends that I have, they noticed that and the funny thing is, I don't often realize that they do, but something will come up, or somebody will say something, or some of them make a joke. And they'll say something like I would this happened recently where somebody like you have Jesse ever said anything like that I would absolutely pass out just yeah. And that's because they understand that there's a certain quality of my language, but this is not like I've never given them a speech ever. Never heard me talk about it like this. Yeah. They just know that there are certain places I don't go. And it's such an oddity, that something just like that. How we choose to speak could be such a strong witness, but it really is.

Tony Arsenal 14:41
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Jesse Schwamb 14:43
Yeah. So enough on that, what do you got that you're denying against?

Tony Arsenal 14:46
So last week, we denied against Todd from the average everyday worship leader podcast. Yep. Or mistakenly saying that Ashley, and I live in Vermont. And today, someone sent me a link to a I'm not exactly sure what it was. But apparently, Joe Biden was visiting a town called Keene, New Hampshire, which is nestled down in this the sort of southwestern corner of New Hampshire right on the border of New Hampshire and Vermont. And it's funny, because he said, You know, I really love this place. It's beautiful. I've been here before. And he said, and what's not to love about being in Vermont? And, you know, if, if maybe like, you know, he's been traveling a lot, and he lost track of what city you was in? Oh, no, like if he thought that he was in Brattleboro which is just across the river from keen on the Vermont side. Maybe that'd be okay. But he clearly knew he was in Keene. And like, it seems like you'd be more likely to forget what particular city you're in versus what state you're in. But not as though I was going to vote for Joe Biden in any possible unit verse. But now I'm going to actively campaign against him not not because of his politics. I mean, there's enough to target there. But just because he confused Vermont and New Hampshire, he should lose the votes for both New Hampshire and Vermont for that.

Jesse Schwamb 16:15
Oh, he's going to timestamp this as the moment that everything went south for Joe Biden's campaign. Yeah, I mean, all it takes these days is one little like mistake like that. And this is a big mistake. It's not the here's why this also super unforgivable, not just because in many ways, Vermont is a bad word. I'm sorry, I use it just there. But also, because where is the first primary? Like, you know, this?

Tony Arsenal 16:40
I know, it's a big deal. Like politically, it's actually a really big deal.

Jesse Schwamb 16:43
Exactly. So

Tony Arsenal 16:47
we need like a good hashtag for this anti Biden, anti Todd from the average everyday worship leader, podcasts, campaign,

Jesse Schwamb 16:56
or shirt Todd loves. We're just grouped in with Joe Biden. But listen, Todd, you did it to yourself.

Tony Arsenal 17:01
You did you did it to yourself twice. So don't blame us. blame yourself and also blame Joe Biden.

Jesse Schwamb 17:08
In some ways, I sense that we're really only hurting ourselves, you and I, because after that episode aired last week, then it became like this great joke among people who know me to ask about was from Vermont. And yeah, I have a lot fewer friends this weekend I did last week. But that's just how it goes.

Tony Arsenal 17:26
I got a video from Tim Shorey, who was formerly a an admin in the reform pub. And there are two things that I hate. Maybe three things will go like proverbs style. That's exactly. I hate Apple air pods. I just think you look like a moron when you're wearing those air pods. And they just drive me nuts. Every time I see someone with them, I have to resist the urge to just slap them right out of their face. And he sent me a video he said he actually intentionally put his air pods in, in order to send me the video because he wanted to trigger me twice. And then he asked me how's Vermont? And I was like, joke's on you. I'm actually in Vermont right now. So you fail. So this has now become the why we hate Vermont podcast. So we're going to rename the show. Getting a new logo, it's going to be great.

Jesse Schwamb 18:25
We need to figure out though is a Do we have any people who are listening from the state of Vermont? I haven't heard anybody. And you know, Vermont backlash. Yeah, I don't know if that's because they're just that chill. But I know that people in Vermont would fight back though. I'm sure like there. If somebody was listening, I'm sure they would get in there Subaru Outback from Vermont right now and drive there to find me.

Tony Arsenal 18:51
It's it's all the pot, they can't really get excited about anything. So they also know that New Hampshire has like more guns per capita than anywhere else the world. So is that true? I don't think it is. But it's close enough. We do love our guns in New Hampshire.

Jesse Schwamb 19:07
That is actually correct. It's a It's a beautiful place. I would love for everybody to go experience it go hike the white or the Green Mountains Go. Go enjoy the lakes. Just especially it's the season is coming up. Tony, when I know that you when I live in New Hampshire. This is of course always the worst season to live in New Hampshire because of the leaf papers who just invade New Hampshire because that is the place where if you want to see God's creation, it's all his glory, all the beautiful leaves changing colors. You really need to go to New Hampshire. There's no other place that I would say in continental US that compares to New Hampshire. This is

Tony Arsenal 19:42
true. It's true. The leaf papers are the third thing that I hate in that little proverb sequence. So So there's that.

Jesse Schwamb 19:51
Can I tell a quick story before we actually get into real stuff, you bad leaf peeping. Maybe I've told this on the podcast. So a proceed. I'm going to call out my mother who is also your mother in law. One time during the peak leaf peeping season. We were coming back from someplace in the car. She was driving I was in the passenger seat. And is that is the case in New Hampshire. So much of the traveling there's some back roads, which means if you get behind somebody, you're stuck there for a long period time was just no passing. And so we were in such situation. And we were behind a bus that was clearly leaf peeping like I think it actually said like leaf tours or something on it. It was like a New York license plate, which is like the worst combination of things. And so this bus was just taking it sweet time. So there was one place to pass on this large stretch of road is actually root for this large stretch of road. And it's uphill. And there is a passing lane for I would say I don't know, maybe like a 10th of a mile. Right? So we she's ready for this to come. She's very upset that the bus is taking sweet time. I know exactly

Tony Arsenal 20:52
what you're talking about, too.

Jesse Schwamb 20:54
Yes, she is ready to pass it. And so she gets up, she's building up speed. Of course, the link comes up, she pulls alongside the bus. And then I've never seen anything like this before or since she actually has the window down and she yells out peep this baby while she drives by and

Tony Arsenal 21:12
I can totally see mom doing that. Ironically, in a super back.

Jesse Schwamb 21:18
Yes, yeah. Yeah, it was it was fantastic. So this is these are great affirmations to denounce Can I just affirm what just happened here?

Tony Arsenal 21:29
in denial, sometimes they're like two and a half minutes long. And sometimes they're 21 and a half minutes long.

Jesse Schwamb 21:35
Well, apparently, this is how people can get a sense of what our triggers are. Because the one about New Hampshire is like taking up a lot of time between this week. And last.

Tony Arsenal 21:43
I really need I really need an anti Joe Biden anti Vermont hashtag. Maybe it'll be like hashtag Biden our time in. Now, if that makes it seem like we support them,

Jesse Schwamb 21:57
right? Yeah. Yeah, that we can? I don't know. We'll figure it out. Before we get mistaken for being a podcast that does support Joe Biden, let's get into our pro mica. Yes, episode

Tony Arsenal 22:09
hashtag all Micah all the time. Or I suppose on this show, it'd be like hashtag all Micah 66% of the time.

Jesse Schwamb 22:20
Listen, I just want to say I appreciate that math joke, but I'm sure you're talking about but that was, that was really great. So what are we talking about tonight with respect to the book of Micah.

Tony Arsenal 22:30
So we are launching into the second half of chapter two. So we're looking at Micah chapter two, verses six through 11. And last week, we talked a little bit about how God was sort of continuing to bring down this judgment on sort of the elites of Jerusalem, and to a lesser degree, but but not entirely on to the elites in the capital of some area as well or Samaritan, some area as well. And so this kind of continues on and it drills down even further as we get into it, on what the particular sin of these elites in Jerusalem was. And then also kind of beyond the outward sin of what was going on. It drills into sort of the inward stubbornness and rebelliousness of the people and how they responded to the Lord's correction that had already come to them through several prophets. So I'm going to go ahead and start reading here. And one of the things that I found interesting about this chapter, and we'll have to, we'll have to nerd out a little bit more on the language, then we usually do is that depending on which translation you're reading, the text can actually have a very different sense. And that's, that's why I have Calvin open in front of me because he does a good job, in my reading, of really explaining the multiple different ways that the Hebrew could be taken. So I think a lot of our listeners, you know, we're used to, we're used to English, were you to Greek, maybe we're used to Latin, we're used to these kinds of language that have a little bit of ambiguity in the way that they're written sometimes, but are pretty clear, in terms of what they're trying to say. Hebrew, especially Hebrew, in poetic, poetic sections, like a lot of the prophets can be a lot more ambiguous and difficult. So it's important to go back to some of these original language resources that we have access to, and really read and consider them because it can make a big difference in how how the text is laid out and what it's communicating. So I'm going to start reading in verse six, I'm reading out of the ESP, it says, Do not preach thus they preach, one should not preach have shut such things. disgrace will not overtake us. Should this be said O house of Jacob has the Lord grown impatient are these his deeds? Do not my words do good to him who walk up brightly. But lately my people have risen up as an enemy, you strip the rich road from the who passed by trusting me with no thoughts of war, the women of my people, you drive out from their delightful houses, from their young children, you take away my splendor forever, Arise and go for this place is no place to rest, because of unclean, this that destroys with a grievous destruction, if a man should go about and other wind and lies saying, I will preach to you of wine and strong drink, he would be the preacher for this people. So the reason I say that this can, the way that the language is laid out can make a big difference is because the first really like eight verses, it's not entirely clear from the text, who is supposed to be speaking in which instance. So you could you could read it this way, where the people are saying, Do not preach this, they preach or this I preach. And so you can read this, as the people are saying to Micah, stop preaching these calamities to us. You could read this as Micah saying to the people do not preach and thus they preach the people preach to Micah that one should not preach of the things that Micah is preaching to them. So depending on how you understand the language, it can make either a subtle, or we'll see, in some parts of this a pretty significant difference. So Calvin is is a good resource on this. I don't know that we're going to get into all the details here. But it's good for us to take a look at those when you're reading through one of these, because you really have to have someone help you understand the Hebrew.

Jesse Schwamb 26:35
And just by hearing that you should have picked up that at least the ESP here, their particular interpretation is the suggested that Mike is confronting the false prophets who support the land robbers that we spoke about last week, right? And it's them who sought to silence him. So that's where you get the support translation of the the Hebrew phrase rendered, thus, they preach literally this idea of dripping words, right there translating as they prophesied. So I'll argue that the greedy and the corrupt leaders themselves have tried to silence the Prophet. But you see in that particular translation that basically they're they're coming from the perspective that Micah is coming against those who are saying, Do not preach, and he's pretty Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 27:14
yeah. And so the text, you know, I actually think Calvin's position is a little bit different. He he actually is saying that this is Micah who is sort of correcting and rebuking the false prophets, rather than the false prophets trying to do the same to Joe or to Micah. And I actually think that that makes a little bit better sense of the text. And so rather than this be like Micah kind of confronting them, and then a series of rhetorical questions that he asks to them, these are actually rhetorical questions that the prophets are kind of responding to Michael with. So they say to Mike, do not preach, and then they preach to him, you should not preach such things. disgrace will not overtake us. And then he says, should this be said, O house of Jacob? Has the Lord groan and patient? Are these his deeds? Do not my words do good to him who walk up rightly? So those first three rhetorical questions? Are the prophets, the false prophets, responding to Micah basically saying, This isn't in the nature or character of God? For him to judge us for this right? Should this be said a house of Jacob, the answer, the implied answer in the language is an answer of know so we really should read this a more along the lines of this shouldn't be said O house of Jacob, should it have the Lord hasn't grown impatient, has he? These aren't his deeds? Are they? So there's a rhetorical element where the implied answer is no. But then the text flips over here. And now it's, it's God or Micah speaking the words of God saying, Do not my words do good to him who walk up rightly. So his response to the the false prophets here is to point out the fact that God's words are goods to those who received them. So he God doesn't preach disaster to his people, he preaches disaster to those who are rebellious against him,

Jesse Schwamb 29:10
right? might be helpful just to hear a different translation real quick to just see exactly how there is such a difference with what you're saying. So this is from the NSP. This is verses six and seven of Micah chapter two, you'll hear immediately the difference in perspective here, and it's pretty stark. So verse six reads, do not speak out, so they speak out. But if they do not speak out concerning these things, where approaches will not be turned back? Is it being said, O house of Jacob, is the Spirit of the Lord impatient? Are these his doings? Do not my words, do good to the one who was walking up rightly. So it's amazing that there is such a difference there in the interpretation, you can see it's a pounded in how we're getting a translated either way, I think what's plain and clear is that the speakers are expressing this common but mistaken belief that because of Israel special relationship with the always, no judgment is going to fall on them. And that's something that actually want to unpack with you a little bit. Because here I think, are some amazing implications for as you and I sit here in the 21st century, and try to understand what God is saying to his people then, and something about God's character now, because I agree that he gives this answer and it basically says, like, the last line is this answer in verse seven, to these rhetorical questions. And it's this idea that you're always blessing is not unconditional. So we're benefits only those who submit to His authority. And I've heard so many pastors, and I think what a really good teachers promulgate this idea that God will not punish, because that's already been taken care of on the cross. And yeah, I think there is a misunderstanding that, yes, that punishment is complete. But there's a misunderstanding there, I think sometimes absorbing discipline into punish. And those are two very different words. So if we're understanding like the punishment that we're talking about here, this sense of suffering pain or loss that serves as some type of retribution, that's different than in the Christian life receiving discipline, which is this orderly a prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior, that is we are molded into by way of some kind of exoticness force that is pressed upon us. Yeah. And so I think what we're seeing here is that really, I guess the case I'm making is that discipline, is really the blessing, the expectation in the right, of the one who has had punishment that's been meted out in their place. Does that make sense?

Tony Arsenal 31:36
It does that mean that straight out of the book of Hebrews, right author there, he straight out says, you know, we had earthly fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them for it, right. And then he says, a person who's not disciplined is an illegitimate son. And so the picture that he's painting is, you know, what, when a man has a son, you know, through him sexual behavior, and he has a son out of that, he doesn't discipline that son, he doesn't, he doesn't correct that son, he doesn't care about that son. And so when we think about the chastisement or the discipline of the Lord, rather than be evidence of God's displeasure with us, or of God's disapproval, or God's anger towards us, it's actually evidence that God in fact, loves us and considers us his sons or daughters, that he would, he would actually sanctify us, not not, through our sin in terms of like our sin sanctified us, but using our sin as an occasion to to, to justly discipline us in order to bring about further growth in holiness.

Jesse Schwamb 32:47
And that's what I see is like the grievous error error here, right is this idea that there's so mistaken that God would not allow any harm to befall them, either generally, or specifically. And they're making that case, because ironically, they're saying, We're already so privileged in God's eyes, that he would not allow that to happen to us, right. And I think we can fall into that it may be a little bit less subtle. But if we were to press on that and really pull that the route, we're going to be pulling up some of the same ideology that I think we find it here that Mike is railing against.

Tony Arsenal 33:18
Yeah. And the other element that really struck me as I was reading this is that, you know, this is this is the world we live in, right, we've talked about mica, mica seems to be sort of the eternal contemporary. And we find that all over the scriptures, but in my study of Michael, it really seems to be the case that it's almost like he's preaching to our generation, right, because we have these false prophets that have come forward. And rather than rather than preach sin, and and the gospel of repentance, which the gospel wasn't any different in Micah's day than it is, now, we may we have a little bit more clarity as to how it is that God forgives us. But God is always forgiven those who repent, through grace through their faith. So it's not as though the gospel is different. But we live in an era where rather than those who consider themselves to be pastors preach the law and the gospel, they preach prosperity. And in good times, even though right you know, we live in a sinful generation, maybe not more sinful than previous generations. But I think probably definitely more apathetic than previous generations. And you know, Matthew Henry says this, and this is something that I think we should all remember. He says, God's words are good words to good people and speak comfortably to them. So when we hear God's word preached, even when we're hearing the law preached, if it's not comfortable to us, if it does not bring us comfort, and satisfaction, that's a real cause for concern if you're sitting under preaching, and it's, it's offensive to you, you have to ask yourself, Is it offensive, you know, could be offensive, because the pastor is preaching something that's not biblical. But more commonly, I would think it's actually offensive to us, because there's some sort of part of our life that we have not yet surrendered to God to be sanctified. And so we have to remember when God's word is faithfully preached, it should be sweet to us, not bitter,

Jesse Schwamb 35:12
right. And there is something to be said here, which is kind of like the opposite of the relief of what we're talking about. If God desires for us through by way of bringing sanctification into our life, to discipline us, by his good grace, because he is a good loving father. That also means then that there is a special blessing in obedience, which I think sometimes we shy away from that because it was God's grace and mercy in such a strong way that we make God to sound like he's egalitarianism. But there is a special blessing for those who are obedient to the Lord. And this is why the song is talks about there being a prosperity and a success in obedience. And like you said, That's juxtaposed against this nonsense, this bill of goods that sold out of the prosperity gospel, where it's all manifested in physical belongings, some kind of achievement of, you know, self aggrandizement. What Mike is talking about here is like the special covering, for those who are under the obedience of God, that there's a blessing that he brings into our lives. It's not the absence of hardship. But it is the ability to fall under his covenant blessing under the desk, Karen kind concerned, under his compassion and loving kindness, even in the midst of those hardships. And that is something that I think we tend to under emphasize, and basically it Mike is saying here is, you got this all wrong. You think that because you have some pedigree, that you have even some kind of historical connection, or you have some genetic connection to something that predisposes you to be part of the elite, at least in God's eyes, that that somehow gives you this covering, but it's really actually your obedience expressed from the heart, as you said, where the abundance truly lies, or the lack thereof. And so there's something there like for us, there's something that we need to tease out, because we so often think, well, we we don't want to, we want to emphasize the law in so much as it expresses to us that we are, it beats us down, it expresses that we cannot achieve on our own what God can only do for us. And that is true, but then we have to leave it there and just walk right like smack into grace as if to say that we can mostly ignore the law. But the law with the grace of job is back into the law as God for godly living such that we should be just as respectful may be fearful of it, not because disobedience means that our identity with God is severed, but more so because our identity should be expressed in obedience to the law. And in that obedience, we receive crazy blessing.

Tony Arsenal 37:38
Yeah. Do you ever read one of those sentences that you're like, if I could just read one? If I could just write one sentence like that for the

Unknown Speaker 37:45
rest of my life? I'd be all set.

Jesse Schwamb 37:48
Yeah, I mean, whenever I'm reading the Puritans. Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 37:50
exactly. This is what Calvin says about this. It says, It hands appears that they were not the people they wish to be deemed that is the people of God for the first condition in God's covenant was that he should rule among his people. In as much then as these men would not endure to be governed by divine power, and wish to have full and unbridled liberty, it was the same as though they had banished God far from them. Well, so you know, I think when I look at, I look at the church, you know, the visible church, and I look at people who are peddling a false gospel. They have no claim to the name of Christ, if they're not, if they're not truly trusting in Him in a way that produces faith and obedience. Now, we've, we've spoken very clearly on this show about what we think about the prosperity gospel, and about confusions in the artist salute is and what it can do to assurance of faith, but, but the fact of the matter is, true, genuine saving faith will necessarily produce a life of obedience and sanctification. Right, you you receive the whole Christ in, in Union, not not just for justification, but also for sanctification. And so when someone is living life, as though God is not their Lord, that God is not their sovereign, we have no reason. And they have no reason to believe that he is, in fact, their sovereign, when all evidence points to the contrary. And I think what he says is really insightful here, that the first condition in God's covenant was that he should rule among his people. Right? Now. Now, depending on how you slice up the 10 commandments that you know, there's the prologue, I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, like that is a statement of sovereignty over the people of Israel, that frames everything that follows. So even though even though the reformed tradition wouldn't consider that a commandment, per se, it's establishing why it is that God has the right to then Institute these 10 moral precepts that govern all of life, because he is the Sovereign Lord, who not only created them, but redeemed and rescued them. So when we as as people who claim to be redeemed by Jesus, when we basically spit in his face, and say, like, Well, I'm not going to follow that command, I'm not going to listen to that rule. I'm not going to do what he asks. We're basically saying, You're not my sovereign, you're not my Lord, and you've rejected Jesus as Lord. You've rejected Jesus as Lord. I mean, it doesn't get any clearer than that.

Jesse Schwamb 40:33
Right? Yeah, that's a good word. I mean, there's so much of that kind of teaching that does happen today. And because it sounds good, or mostly good, or like something that might be good, we take it as more or less something that's biblical. And it's interesting that kind of Mike at least in this perk up wraps this up with like one of my favorite verses in all of Mike, I know, I should probably be the one about, you know, what does the Lord require of you, but I just love this because it's like amazing turn of phrase, I'm going to read it from the NSP. Again, just because the NSP is like a workhorse translation, but yeah, literal it's trying to be. So this is gonna sound a little bit strange to the ear, but just like, just soaking this for a second. This is such a great verse. It's verse 11. So Mike writes, if a man walking after wind and falsehood, had told lies, and said, I will speak out to you concerning wine and liquor, he wouldn't be spokesman to this people. And it's just it's crazy. Like, it's almost like he's saying, Do you realize like, how ridiculous you guys have become like you've grown so spiritually inept, that you're easily deceived by any charlatan or false prophet about like, any matter of things like any subject matter, even like liquor in wine. And when I was reading this, this reminded me of this ad, I think that was it was really it was posted Twitter originally, but I think it was posted elsewhere. I don't know if you saw this on your website. It was like a long time ago, I think. But it was this advertisement from, I think Royal Dutch airlines, you know, I'm talking about you heard of this.

Tony Arsenal 42:00
I've heard of the Royal Dutch airlines.

Jesse Schwamb 42:02
Okay, so Well, that's great. So they had this, they had this advertisement. And it was in support of gay rights. It was like their pride Amsterdam event, which of course, is in the country, which they operate. And so it's a picture and vision, this it's a picture of a seatbelt, have an airline seat belt, you know, the airline seat belt has like to just like two ends, it has right a latch and then the faceplate where you release the latch. So what does the caption says it doesn't matter who you click with happy, hashtag pride, Amsterdam. And so it's a set of three combinations or three permutations. So and just because you you brought up some excellent math before I bring this math up just because this is the kind of thing I think Mike is talking about, like this, this is gonna sound super like intellectual like super like this is this is the proper way to think about something. So they have three combinations here. And so it's two latches together to latch keys together. And then one latchkey and one faceplate. So if you were to do that math with math look like to see like, how many combinations are these different permutations, some be like four factorial divided by four minus two factorial times two factorial, divide that whole thing by two, that sounds really super awesome, right? Like here, all the combinations in nature, we can figure out here the all the combinations that should go together. And of course, they're making a statement by saying, What doesn't matter, your sexual orientation, and we're going to use our seatbelts as an example. Here's where this comes into play, at least for me with Michael with waste talking about the sheer the sheer, like insanity and nonsensical nature of what's going on here is, I guarantee you, though, the Royal Dutch airline puts forward this little advertisement says it doesn't matter who you click with us, I guarantee that when you're on one of their airlines, when you're on the plane, and they hit turbulence, there's only one combination of those seatbelts that they're going to require you to use. Yeah. So it's, I think, in some ways, that's that's kind of what he's driving at here is like, you have become so preoccupied with everything. That's other God, that's not God, getting all of your wisdom from things that you think are actually wiser than God Himself, that you will be fooled by anybody, because you have become so spiritually inept, and that spiritual ineptness impacts all manners of our life, I think that's what we're seeing in our culture where we have a predominantly is a tolerance problem. We don't have predominantly a racial or gender problem. Those are all symptoms of sin, right and spiritual ineptness. And this is where we need God himself by the power of His Holy Spirit to come in and regenerate our lives. We cannot manufacture or mandate or legalize any kind of behavior that's going to eradicate all those things. And ironically, in trying to be more tolerant, we bring about more I get more violence, we bring about more discomforts, we bring about a lack of peace. And so I think this is where what Micah says then is really applicable now. Because I think it's called saying, You believe so many nonsensical things, you accept so many nonsensical things. And why is that? It's because you've turned away from God, it is the giving over and as sense, but I'm almost feeling like it's it's more than that. It's this idea that we've essentially lost our minds. And in, you know, this is kind of what is it Margaret's says this that we've educated ourselves into imbecility, it's exactly that thing. It's not lack of education. It's not lack of logic. It's not lack of operating processes. It's a lack of spiritual centeredness centeredness in Jesus Christ Himself.

Tony Arsenal 45:25
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a good word. And you know, one of the things that is a downside to the way we're approaching Mike, and just the way that modern Bibles divide up the text, is when you look at some of what the text is saying, unless you keep reading past what we're talking about, you miss a flavor of it. And this is what I ran into is, I'm reading Calvin, and I'm reading Matthew Henry, and they get to verse 10. And it says, Arise and go, for this is no place to rest because of the unclean is that destroys with a grievous destruction. I'm thinking right exile. Yeah, this is the punishment. But if you continue to read, and I'm just going to sneak peek the next one, when you get to verse 12, he says, I will surely assemble all of you, oh, Jacob, and I will gather the remnant of Israel, I will set them together like a sheep in a fold, like a flock, and it's pasture, a noisy multitude of men. And so so that, that command to arise and go is not speaking of the punishment of the exile, it's actually speaking to the remnant of Israel. Basically, God is going to exile those who are wicked, but he's also going to sweep those who are not wicked, he's going to take the remnant out of the land with the exiles, basically, in order to purify the land. So when they return, they can return to a land free of corruption. And so when it says here, Arise and go, this is no place to rest. He's basically telling them, this place is no longer the promised land right now. Right? The the the Association of rest, and the promised land is a biblical theme that flows all throughout Genesis all the way through into the reign of the kings all the way into the profits here, and then culminates in Christ, right? So when you saying this is no place to rest, he's basically saying to them, and Jeremiah picks up on this theme, right? Jeremiah, as a prophet says, Go into exile, build houses, start a family, you're going to be there a while, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for them, because God is going to prune the land, he's going to restore it to a sort of state of sanctuary for the remnant when they return. And Matthew Henry makes this, I think, this really beautiful point for us. You know, he's talking about his own context, but I think it applies to us as well. And he says, Here, we may apply this to our state in the present world, it is polluted, there's a great deal of corruption the world through lust, and therefore we should arise and depart out of it, keep at a distance from the corruption that is in it, and keep ourselves on spotted for it. And this is just, this is just another one of those sentences. It is not our rest, it was never intended to be so it was designed for our passage, but not for our portion, our in, but not our home. And so we we have this tendency, and this goes goes all the way back to the beginning of the show, we're talking about our language, we're talking about this, right? You know, we talk about the things we watch on TV, we talked about the way we treat our wives or our co workers or our you know, other people we encounter, the fact that we're polite and nice to people in the drive thru late, you know, it's funny, I get drive through maybe once a week when I'm doing grocery shopping. And when they make a mistake, the next time I come through, I simply asked politely, you know, there was some mistake on my order last time, would it be possible for me to get a complimentary meal tonight, every single time they say yes, and every single time, they say, you know, I really appreciate you just being respectful and asking polite, and there's something different about me, in that I take my time to be respectful, that really does catch people's attention. And this is what it is, is we here's here's Henry again, we have no continuing city, Let us therefore arise and depart. Right, so the Prophet is telling the remnant of God's people get out of here, get out of the land, go with the exiles into Babylon, because this is no longer the promised land. But it will be again, because in the future, I will send Christ and Christ will will sanctify and make his people holy for all time. And we just really need to remember that because I think sometimes we get so caught up in trying to sort of fix the world, not that we shouldn't seek social restoration and social justice, not in this sort of work sense. But in the true sense of social justice. We get so caught up in that we forget that at the very best. We're kind of arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. And it's going to take the Lord Himself to recreate and reconstruct this world to be that true garden sanctuary that he always intended it to be.

Jesse Schwamb 50:13
And we should draw from some of the themes that we've already talked about that Mike has been outspoken with respect to the spiritual disease that's happening out the people and how this relates to that there isn't this yet, this beautiful cross reference of the idea that they are to separate themselves from that grievous sin. And you see in here, like this amazing, really dramatic language, it's the same type of language that Jesus Himself uses. When he doesn't just say to people, you know, listen, soon as bad. Stop it. He says things like, if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out for you and cause you to sin, cut it off. And so you have here these amazing combination of words, for instance, in verse 10, which you just read, that's the rise and go, not only is this not a place to rest, because why is it not a place to rest because of unclean this that destroys with not just destruction, but a grievous destruction. So there's a weightiness here to what's going on. And I think this is the same play that Paul makes elsewhere, which is the be separate, be separate people. And what strikes me about the example you gave, which once again, is something where we're talking about a really simple act of love, which is when somebody has made a mistake, even where you've offered them remuneration for service, you do not take it upon yourself to exercise that right, essentially, say like, because the another person, even a well meaning person, even a loving person might go in and say, Well, I paid for this product, and I deserve to get what I paid for. Right? So I deserve to come on as strong as I want to about that. And so by you going in, and being gentle, and being kind, early, of course, doing the very thing that you would like to receive in return when you have made some type of error. But you're also essentially saying, this person has worth, and they have worth because God has made them and created them. And that sounds so trite, but most of the time and myself included, we walk around using other people, and instead of valuing who they are, and making that like the principal way in which we're going to approach them each when it comes to the small things, because really the small things dictate and really express what kind of people we are. Yes, I love that here. Micah has this challenge. Like you said, it's both the rise and go like you're going to go into exile. But in some ways for us, it's the same challenge. It's arise and go, basically, get rid of forsake your sin, mortify it work hard at doing that. That's something that we've talked about a lot on this podcast as well. Because when you do not do that, this unclean, this this innocence, even in the maybe the language that we use, which we started at the top of the show, it leads to destruction it destroys and the destruction that comes with it is grievous. It's not just bad. It's soul sucking, it is debilitating. It is it will make you weep and gnash your teeth. God does not want that for his children. He wants, of course, the exact opposite, this abundant life, and that, again, comes through the obedience. So he's done such a great job here, at juxtaposing what it means to be obedient, and what it means to be disobedient. The there's almost a sense where we should want to do these things for God. And sometimes that is, at least my prayer. I'm not, you know, like a sanctified enough to say that there are times where I just have to pray, God, would you would you help me to want to want to love you to do these things. I'm still learning what it means to walk in that kind of passionate love toward God, where everything I do is just an expression of that love. At the same time, it's almost like God has has in our weakness given us this wonderful testimony that we can look at this and say, God, I want to do these things, because I love you first. But I also want to do them because I want the blessings of obedience because I want to be your child and a little walk enter that's worthy of the calling, which have been called. So do you see like for me there, there's something that's beautiful in that God even condescends by saying, like, if it's just not enough that I'm so lovely, so amazing, so brilliant, so magnificent. So everything that you're not that you want to fall in love with me, and obey me. Can you at least see that like a good loving parent, I know the best way forward, and that when you obey me, there will be blessing in that obedience. And I just love that God, is that kind? Do that for me?

Tony Arsenal 54:01
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any better way to end that episode is is, you know, God is good and gracious to those who are his, he is kind and loving. And just as we talked about earlier, right, God's words are pleasant and delightful to those whom he has chosen and whom he is saved. And so we we, as his people should always be grateful and thankful, even when he brings a word of chastisement. Or when he brings a hard Providence that is oriented towards our sanctification, we should be grateful for that, because he is always acting in our in our benefit. And so even though you know, even as the exiles here, the people who are going to be going to exile, probably we're not looking at this as a positive thing. Ultimately, it was still for their benefit that they were taken out of the land that they were brought into exile, because that was important. What brought them to a place where they could repent and could be sanctified. So it that's a that's a good way for us to wrap up the episode here in this section.

Jesse Schwamb 55:11
I'm realizing that as we talk about this subject, and we're getting ourselves into the text, which is it really the best of all conversations, isn't it? Yeah. What a wonderful thing to be able to speak openly, and to have our voices recorded in a conversation that's about the scriptures and about Jesus Christ. And so to that end, I'm realizing that's possible that when we do when we're doing this series, we're talking about the Bible, that this is the fastest I ever speak, because I get really excited. Yeah, that's the New Englander coming out. And it's true because you seem like so much more measured in my comments. Were talking about this. And I just realized, like, I didn't even take a breath and like two minutes there, it was just all straight out. So I apologize for everybody that's listening out like two or three times speed, because it may just sounded like I was an auctioneer for a large portion of this conversation.

Tony Arsenal 55:58
I think it's because I live so close to Vermont, there's like a permanent contact high from the state.

Jesse Schwamb 56:07
I knew there was going to be another. I knew when we started this episode, that we have like Kairos stick structure that there be no doubt that we'd have to book ended by some kind of other returning our reprisal of the Vermont theme and you do not want me down and I'm so thankful.

Tony Arsenal 56:23
Don't do drugs. Kids even pie. Don't do it. Don't do it. God gave us the green plant for food not for smoking.

Jesse Schwamb 56:31
Yeah, well that's is that a bumper sticker? Cuz if it's not,

Tony Arsenal 56:34
not in Vermont, it's not

Jesse Schwamb 56:37
again, you never disappoint. I love that remark came up like back up again. What's gonna happen even before we get to that honor everyone part,

Tony Arsenal 56:44
you know, talks in a really slow measured sense.

Unknown Speaker 56:48
Who Todd from the average everyday.

Tony Arsenal 56:55
We love you, Todd. Even though everything

Jesse Schwamb 56:58
come come hang out on our podcast, let's do like this joint podcast thing. And we talked about worship and reformed worship. And that would be great.

Tony Arsenal 57:08
You know, there's an open invitation to Todd, I almost said

Jesse Schwamb 57:11
pod to Todd, I know you did

Tony Arsenal 57:14
to join the Society of reformed podcasters. As long as he becomes reformed. That's the only bar of entry there's got to be reformed. So get with it.

Jesse Schwamb 57:27
Get with it. I love ya. Good. That could also be a bumper sticker. Get with it. Yeah, that's great. We have all these great ideas. I'm waiting for somebody to come and execute. We're just throwing out all these amazing opportunities for somebody to take advantage of. And I'm waiting for like a printer or somebody to just, you know, snatch all these things up.

Tony Arsenal 57:45
Yeah. You know, I'm a little nervous with this closing here, cuz I was gonna say, I gotta go because I have the munchies. But I'm kind of nervous that someone's going to actually think that I do drugs, I'm very anti drugs. I do not do drugs.

Jesse Schwamb 58:01
As MI, do we need to do a more formal disclosure or, you know, disclaimer at this point. Not disclosure disclaimer at this point, or

Tony Arsenal 58:09
do you have something to disclose Jesse? No, no, no.

Jesse Schwamb 58:12
Yeah, all I want to disclose is that I'm definitely not condoning or in favor of any kind of drugs.

Unknown Speaker 58:18
It's true. It's true.

Jesse Schwamb 58:21
Drugs drink caffeinated coffee, because I just can't handle the caffeine but

Tony Arsenal 58:25
I don't even like to take medicine if I don't have to.

Jesse Schwamb 58:28
Yeah, I'm, I'm done with now I feel like we're just over emphasizing it. Like I've never taken Advil.

Tony Arsenal 58:35
Or like they're hiding something. They're over compensating for sure. We better be better playing because I don't know how to get off otherwise. And if we if we're on a crashing plane, we know how to buckle our seatbelts now.

Jesse Schwamb 58:50
There's only one way I'm looking at you Royal Dutch airlines.

Tony Arsenal 58:54
I feel like this is an episode of Seinfeld waiting to happen because you know like the last like 30 seconds of Seinfeld like the main joke of the episode comes back Yeah, like that's what this just was.

Jesse Schwamb 59:05
Yeah, this is particularly strong like our humor on this was five star easily.

Tony Arsenal 59:10
It's always it's always the best one you rate yourself five stars. All right, Jesse wanted to take us home here.

Jesse Schwamb 59:19
Can't the plane crashed and we're just limping out now at this point. But until next time, honor everyone. Love the Brotherhood.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai