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Tony and Jesse continue Book Cast with Chapter 10 of Reformed Preaching by Joel Beeke.

Jesse Schwamb 0:09
Welcome to Episode 158, of the reformed brotherhood, Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony and we are proud members of the Society of reformed podcasters.

Hey, brother,

Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey, brother, I know that we can no longer speak about the weather on this podcast. Like that's a rule we created and then we always violate it some violating it right off the top again. Follow is here. Fall is great.

Tony Arsenal 0:44
I agree. I do like fall, although we only get fall for like, a couple of weeks. So we've already got regularly, temperatures in the mid sometimes low 30s. So Winter is coming. I don't watch Game of Thrones, but apparently That's a phrase they use on the show. But it's Did you see that?

Jesse Schwamb 1:03
Yeah, I've never watched it either. But I see that meme all the time with like to do with the beard. Apparently that's very meaningful.

Tony Arsenal 1:09
Yeah, I don't know. When I first saw it. I thought it was a scene from Lord of the Rings that I didn't remember. But it's not. So. It does have that flavor was the same. It's the same actor. It's the guy play born there. Oh, is it really? Yeah. Sounds like I don't remember that scene. I don't remember that phrase. Because it wasn't there in

Jesse Schwamb 1:26
your movie knowledge and identification is on point.

Tony Arsenal 1:29
Yes, he was Sean Bean, isn't it?

Jesse Schwamb 1:32
I have no idea that sounds actually underwhelming for the way that he appears to me.

Tony Arsenal 1:37
It's true.

Jesse Schwamb 1:39
Well, well, let's warm ourselves up with a little affirmations and denials. How would you kick us off with an affirmation?

Tony Arsenal 1:44
So I am affirming a podcast that I was just keyed into called the daily reformation podcast. So if you remember, you know that when we started this society of reform podcasters we had reformed outlook and fast God stuff and Then us the reformed brotherhood, and very shortly after we added five for fruit, and for a variety of reasons, Kerry's life has gotten a little bit busier. So he hasn't been able to put together a show in quite a while. But the daily reformation is typically about 15 to 20 minutes long, so it's not quite five for fruit, but it's a shorter form podcasts. And they just explore like good general reform topics. They did a series on the five solos. They did some stuff on the canons of dork so it's just good, kind of episodic serialized, shorter form episodes. So check it out daily reformation podcast, it's super good.

Jesse Schwamb 2:35
Actually, that's something I'm going to throw into my list because there is this space is there for like kind of short snippets, nuggets, if you will, of Reformed theology that you can get thrown on your way to work or at your lunch break or whenever you like, even while you're working and just just get a little bit a little taste if Yeah, just

Tony Arsenal 2:51
Just let me throw this on is just like a secondary ad on affirmation. League in the year has this new show called simply put it in It's done by a guy named Barry Cooper. It's very similar in terms of length to like five minutes in church history. But it's usually like a topic in systematic theology. And it's called Simply put, because it's this sort of monologue style pithy presentation of a systematic theology topic and like common language, but he's British, so it automatically sounds smart, smarter. It's a good show, too.

Jesse Schwamb 3:24
This is the golden age of podcasting. podcasting hasn't been around for that long. But if there's a golden age, it's the day it's today, the day that you're living in right

Tony Arsenal 3:34
now. That means it's all downhill from here.

Jesse Schwamb 3:36
So let's get started.

Tony Arsenal 3:39
Yeah. Right. What do you got, Jesse?

Jesse Schwamb 3:42
I'm affirming a product this week. So lots of people for various reasons, including myself, have to give up gluten because there's sin in the world. And so most of the time when somebody says to you, oh, this thing is as good as the real thing. Just have gluten. There's 97% chance it's just not true. But There is this 3% out there this elusive the unicorn of gluten products and this is what I want to affirm. It's called Pamela's baking and pancake mix. I miss pancakes. pancakes are glorious. And so this Pamela's baking and pancake mix I know a Pam does I know where she's from, but it's made of it's got cultured butter milk, almond meal and eight grams of whole grains per serving. I know this sounds like a an infomercial right now. In some ways it is it's really good. And here's the thing about it is it makes the pancakes they're like, thicker than a crepe, but I would say thinner than like your normal like huge pancakes. But they get that like nice crispy outside in like the really soft center. And they're just absolutely dropped dead delicious. And I would pair these actually you have to pair these with pure maple syrup. Can I get like an Amen on that?

Tony Arsenal 4:54
Yeah, yeah, but New Hampshire maple syrup, not Vermont maple syrup. New There's a significant difference between the two.

Jesse Schwamb 5:04
So one is not socialist. So you want to definitely get pure maple syrup even if you're just going to eat pancakes packed with gluten, which is I'm down with that's if you can do that. Go ahead. But you need to stop people with this whole like, you know, enter my my stuff. syrup is not meant to be like thick and goopy. It's actually very thin and not as sweet. It's meant to be a little bit more mild on your palate. So definitely check out I'm totally affirming the baking and pancake mix made by Pamela's you can find it in your grocer.

Tony Arsenal 5:39
Nice. I don't

Jesse Schwamb 5:40
remember what a syrup thing. What was that? How do you feel about the syrup thing?

Tony Arsenal 5:44
I like good old fashioned like generic answer my most sir. But I do have to admit because you know when you're not from a state that does their own maple syrup or you're not in the region where you can get like locally made maple syrup. You don't really realize the What you have it's kind of like eating tacos in like northern New England. You don't realize until you go to Mexico that what you've been eating isn't really tacos. Sure it's the same thing like like Mrs. Butterworth and survival whatever the service. It's good and it's tasty but it's not really maple syrup. That doesn't mean it's not good it just isn't what maple syrup is. So like yeah the sort of watery running maple syrup that you get in New England, mostly New Hampshire but also Vermont, Vermont tends to be I think a little sweeter. But New Hampshire maple syrup is you're right. It's very subtle. And if you heat it up, it becomes really really liquidity which is good because it's soaks in so yeah, you're not eating maple syrup on top of your pancakes. You're eating maple syrup like impregnated pancakes, which is the way God intended maple syrup pancakes to be.

Jesse Schwamb 6:52
Sorry, I was not anticipating impregnated in there but it's actually probably pretty good description because It shouldn't be like motor oil, you shouldn't put on your pancakes and it just kind of cascades off the side. I know that's like the pictures that everybody sees, right? But true evil syrup does absorb. So you're getting that real. That's why you need to have the crispy sides. It locks everything in. There's a purpose people there is a God of chaos when it comes to your pancakes. So if you haven't tried that, I know you're probably if you go and look it up, and you've only had like the high fructose corn syrup style, generic stuff, you're going to be like sweet mercy. Why is this so expensive? Yeah, it's because it's very difficult to make or it takes a lot of effort to make it's resource intensive, but it is absolutely delicious. And because it's more expensive, you actually don't need as much of it right? You don't need to like drown everything in it. I'm just saying give it a try. This is the time of year we're coming into the winter months. You want some good pancakes, you're gonna need some good syrup. So check out both of those things highly recommend.

Tony Arsenal 7:54
Yeah, to make like genuine New Hampshire maple syrup, some Peroni had to, like walk around in the woods and hammer stuff into trees. So that's why it's expensive because it's not just like boiled down sugar. There's a lot of like actual intensive labor selecting the right tree, you know, getting it tapped at the right time boiling into the right temperature. There's a lot of like science that goes into it that you wouldn't expect.

Jesse Schwamb 8:19
There's a whole crazy industry like work since we're already off the rails on this topic. I'm on a soapbox, I'm just gonna keep going. So it's not just about like, it takes a lot of work, which is true. And you're right, like you got to go through find the right trees. You gotta tap them, you gotta hang your buckets, you got to boil it down all this stuff. But even just the supply is is so influenced by the weather because yeah, the trees prefer warm days and cool nights. That's like the absolute best for making the syrup. So depending on the weather of that year, going into, even out of like the summer months, makes a huge difference. So it's actually an incredible thing. It's what I would say, pure maple syrup is more akin to like making wine or making beer. Yeah, then it is Like, you know, just throwing recipes together and in boiling water, it's really complex. And so like I get some syrup, there are people that are like snobs thinking like, you know, I don't know, like they, they taste this syrup and they, you know, like, as if you're tasting coffee or something, and they're like, Oh, this was, you know, this came from a tree next to a red barn on the south side. They can tell all that stuff because it's that complex. So you just gotta try it. It's great. You'll love it.

Tony Arsenal 9:24
You know, when you know someone really well, you can see and predict the different kinds of faces they're going to make when they do certain personas. And you totally just put on your like, hoity toity, snooty face. We're like, maple syrup next to a red barn. It's like this this face. You do?

Jesse Schwamb 9:42
Yes. Yeah. Jason to a field of clovers. Yes. It's that good. Alright, so get me off of pancakes. What are you denying?

Tony Arsenal 9:51
So I don't know if you've heard about this or not, but I am denying the phoenix arizona police department. Have you heard about this stuff? A little bit, but I'm

Jesse Schwamb 10:01
curious, where are you going with this?

Tony Arsenal 10:03
So I'm in the great state of Arizona resides apology, a church with my friend Jeff Durbin and James White. They are elders at the apology of church which is in Phoenix. And so they are very active in anti abortion ministry. I they wouldn't even appreciate being called pro life they would prefer the term anti abortion, even though they are in favor of life, all that there's connotations with pro life that they would actually say they want to distance themselves from, but they regularly spend time protesting and sharing the gospel and ministering at local abortion Mills or clinics. And so there was a group of them that were out at a clinic on the 10th of October, and as they were protesting and you know, you can find their videos online, they're generally respectful their, their their their their law, being People they're very concerned with obeying the laws. A lot of times they know the laws better than the local police who come out there to try to confront them. And so, on the 10th of October, one of the people who is performing abortions leaves the clinic in their car. And as they're driving past, they pull out a gun and pointed at one of the protesters. And so the reason I'm denying the Phoenix Police Department is because they filed charges right? In I don't know the law for sure. But from the videos I've seen, and from what I've read, the law in Arizona is actually such that if you brandish an object with the intention of presenting it as a gun, then you can be charged with aggravated assault whether or not it's actually a gun. And this ended up I believe it ended up actually being a gun, but they called the local police. The local police took their their witness or their statements, they issued charges and then nothing happened for a week. So the following week, they were out at the clinic again, and the same doctor drove by and said The person who had been threatened with the gun called the police and said, Hey, I'm out here. Last week, this guy pulled a gun on me. I'm concerned he may still have the gun with him. I'm concerned for my safety. So the police came out again. They took some statements, they watched the video, and they did nothing. And Jeff Durbin has made the point. And I think he's absolutely right that if one of the one of the anti abortion protesters had pulled out a gun or even a knife and had brandished it in a threatening manner, they would have been arrested and taken off the scene immediately, regardless of whether or not a police was there to witness it. For sure. So the Phoenix police did nothing about this. They did there was no real investigation that that could be seen. No witness statements were taken apart from the initial day. There was nothing going on and then all of a sudden apology puts this up on their website and encourages all of their followers to call the police department. And within four hours the perpetrator or the alleged perpetrator had been arrested. So the reason I'm denying the Phoenix Police Department is that this is absolute terrible police work, right? There's video evidence, multiple witnesses, and they don't even question the guy. until of course the public brings pressure on them, which is just it's just ridiculous. Do your jobs like do your jobs, you have one job, and that's to keep the peace? And how much more clear of a situation can it be? Where you have video evidence of a man pointing a gun at somebody in a menacing fashion? You still do nothing. And his answer the police officers answer when they asked why are you not arresting this guy was? Well, I can't be sure that that's a gun. And then again, the statutes actually say like, it doesn't have to be a gun. It could have been a toy gun, and he still would have been potentially guilty of aggravated assault. If he intended to intimidate someone as though it were a gun, which clearly from the video he did. So I think we're in a cultural moment where like, we just are starting to see the police are not doing their jobs in certain instances and there is an agenda behind The police have been out there many times and have frankly been made to look foolish by Jeff and his team understanding and knowing and obeying the law. And I think now that there's, there's some blowback now that's happening where they won't even enforce clearly violated laws because of this agenda that they're trying to forward.

Jesse Schwamb 14:20
And anybody who knows Jeff Durbin, personally, or is like witnessed his ministry by just even viewing their work through YouTube knows that, you know, like we say they're protesting. They're doing in a way that's not only peaceful and lawful, but isn't like your traditional confrontation like they're not out there just yelling at people trying to garnish a lot of attention, right, what does what they're trying to do is is actually encouraging and get conversation going with those who are entering and exiting those clinics. So I think what you're absolutely right, what we're seeing that's fascinating to me, is this renewed or introduced double standard, whereby you have these Christian protesters, who I think naturally Have in the minds of others. This kind of said that they projected on them the sense that they are bigoted. And so because of that, for whatever reason that overshadows a natural law for response, because right now, not only do we live in a country where there shouldn't be this double standard, but now because of really where gun violence is, in our own country, this should be kind of an immediate response. Yeah. If that had happened in any other situation, where somebody calls in so and so is brandishing a weapon or see somebody branching a weapon, there should be an immediate response to that just based on the tragedy. It's happened in our country just this year alone. So there's definitely this double standard that's coming forward. And it seems extreme, because the response should be an immediate work to try to find out what's going on there. And yeah, apprehend the person that allegedly brandish the weapon.

Tony Arsenal 15:48
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I have my disagreements with Jeff on on several theological vectors, but I absolutely think he is probably one of the sharpest Sort of younger apologetics forces in the refresher movement, his his deployment of presupposition apologetics, he just had a debate that he and James White participated in, and the way that they employ the transcendental argument for God. Just some of the Vantage alien insights is really a sight to see. And the thing that I most respect about Jeff and his ministry is, he is prophetic in the most possibly reformed sense of the word that he he is able to take the written word of God and confrontational he apply it to whatever situation he is in. And so you know, there are times when the police will come out and try to tell him he needs to turn down his his amplification, and he will very respectfully present them with the law which says that they need to have a sound meter to be able to determine whether or not they're actually violating the statute. And then he is not afraid in any sense of the word to straight out call them out for their sin when they are not enforcing the law. The way that They are supposed to, which is exactly I think how a Christian, not necessarily the church, per se and that's one of the areas that Jeff and I would disagree on. But how a Christian is supposed to interact with the world in a prophetic fashion, right of being able to apply God's Word to the situation in in sometimes a confrontational sense. And you know what, this isn't like a cast we're going to get into reform preaching cast here. But this really ties into what we've been talking about. And Micah just situation is that Jeff is, is calling the people of Phoenix and the civil magistrates particularly to account and they are the police especially are acting as respecters of person, which is exactly what Michael was condemning the judges in Israel during his time for so it really is a strange time to be living in you know, not one of those people that thinks like, the whole world is falling apart and that like, we're not going to be able to have worship services next next Sunday because the government's going to come in and take away our buildings like we're not there. I don't know that. We're going to Be there in the next 20 years. I don't know, I'm not a prophet or the son of a prophet. But they're really it. It really is a strange cultural moment that I don't think we've ever faced in America. And it's it's an interesting, kind of scary time to be alive.

Jesse Schwamb 18:14
Hashtag that post mill.

Tony Arsenal 18:15
Yeah. Yeah, that's a little bit of the irony that sometimes I see when I see Jeff out preachy that he's so adamantly post mill, but then also is, is having to sort of grapple with the fact that the culture is pressing against him in like a much more aggressive way than we've seen in America in the past, right. So it's definitely kind of a strange cognitive dissonance there, but But yeah, just if you get a chance, it does turn out that the the perpetrator the alleged perpetrator has been arrested now, but pray for Jeff pray for his ministry. Pray for the work he's doing in Phoenix pray for the work that their church is doing, you know, he's got this end abortion now website movements that is really serving to launch a platform And, uh, to get resources in the hand of Christians all throughout the country. And I do think we're in this cultural moment where we actually are making some progress in the broader culture against the horror of abortion. But it is it is a strange time to be alive.

Jesse Schwamb 19:17
That's for sure. I'm with you, brother.

Tony Arsenal 19:20
What do you got?

Jesse Schwamb 19:23
So this is also denial of, of somewhat serious nature. And I want to provide quick disclosure. First, I'm not trying purposefully, that is to trigger anybody, nor am I trying to take on the role of a troll. But what I'm about to say is probably a bit of a hot take. And it's something that I've been thinking about because we're halfway through October, we're approaching reformation day and I always tend to think about where we've come from in our own theological perspectives where I've come from with the way that which Lord The Lord has led me and hopefully he's leading me from glory to glory and spiritual maturity, and sanctification and so when I think of the challenges that Martin Luther and john Calvin and others encountered the way in which we admire them for the way they were used by God and of God to make way for transformation through religious expression. But of course, going back to the Scriptures, I often think of the Roman Catholic Church and the use of indulgences, which was for many, it was almost like the touchpoint. It was a lightning rod that almost inadvertently spurred on a lot of other theological conversations and form. And so that got me thinking recently about the indulgences. And what is it in our modern culture that is like them? So let me just give you the thesis, which again, is my heartache. So it's this, that the sinners prayer, with the explicit language of the invitation to receive God into your heart is the modern day ubiquitous indulgence. Yeah. And what I mean by that is the sense that the indulgence is really under my Faith in a large degree because it was transactional based. And when we speak about a sinners prayer, and emphasize in particular this word of acceptance, did you accept Jesus? Did you ask the Holy Spirit into your heart? that language is so transactional based that it differentiates and divorces from this idea of not just crying out to the Lord, which I'm saying is important. That is part of the activation, as Paul says, but we don't ask things like, were you repentant? Are you is there contrition, you living a life of obedience and faith that results in fruitfulness. And so that's, that's my denial is that the sinners prayer and explicitly this idea of invitation and receiving that is the modern day indulgence, and I'm denying it as a type of indulgence. What say you have I gone too far?

Tony Arsenal 21:49
I don't think so. And I don't, I don't think anyone your audience is really going to think You went too far. I mean, I think there might be a couple people listening who are new to the show that are like what in the world is happened, but I think you're right. I mean, forget who it is. I'm sure Michael Horton is said it at some point. But there really is this reality or maybe our Scott Clark, that the the word and sacrament the baptism of the Lord's Supper has very much been replaced by quiet time and decision theology. Yeah, sure where the new sacrament of the church has been this decision for Jesus as sort of the initial story right? And, you know, your daily quiet time as the the sort of ratification right of the Christian religion. And what I think is really interesting in a sort of confusing and sort of sad way, is the same people often who will rail against the idea that someone believes their child is saved even though they've gone astray because their child was baptized, will also in the same vein will ignore the fact that their child has totally like walked away from the face because they They went down for an altar call at some point like the same people will say, well, that's ridiculous. You can't think your child saved because he was baptized, but will then despite all evidence to the contrary will believe their child is saved because they prayed a particular prayer at one moment in time. And there's this again there's this weird discordant reality so that that they don't see that they're actually doing the same thing. And you know, I think about the the sinners prayer, and don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with a like a particular scripted prayer that you lead someone through when they've when they've truly repented. But treating it as though it's some magic formula or some talisman that obligates God to do something is totally off base. There's this weird phenomena that happens in evangelicalism where that just becomes this new sacrament or this new indulgence very much like praying, you're our fathers. Right. You go to the priest, he says pray 1010 Hail Marys. Well, you only have one indulgence in the evangelical world and it's prayer One sinners prayer. And a lot of times people do that repeatedly because they don't think it took the first time.

Jesse Schwamb 24:06
Right? That's my point. My basic where I've come to land on this is if you hate indulgences, the idea the concept, the practice of them, then you ought to also hate that type of sinners prayer were based on Did you receive an invitation in Did you accept it, because we can rely on that in the same way that others rely on indulgence as proof that no matter what happens, while I did this particular thing, and therefore this obligation on the part of God, to absolve me from some kind of guilt, or some kind of shame, and then from sins itself to bring salvation, and that I think, is still a real problem? Yeah. And it's, I think it's pervasive and as pernicious as the indulgence system. So, I know that sounds extreme, but part of me believes that it is extreme because it is in the sense that the kind of behavior where we kind of meritorious Lee do something because we believe that in the doing of something on our part, that's seals the deal? Yes, the very thing that that Calvin and Luther were trying to get away from it, what started the whole, everything to begin with was this idea that we are somehow earning a sense of salvation or security. And we said all along, we should be focusing on the security that like we talked about on other episodes that God provides us through the silence of the Holy Spirit and the fruit in our lives. Because in reality, almost every day should be a sinners prayer and this turning ourselves over to God crying out for him to help. It's not that we have to continually ask that God would save us. But it's that His Divine Will and pleasure on his own volition to save us in a way that's not contingent on somehow we get this wedding invitation in the mail, we either open it and send an RSVP or we don't. And that to me is just like the indulgence I can't see any other way around it. So yeah, dream or not. I'm denying indulgences. And what I think is their derivative representation in our own evangelical culture. And that is this idea of invitation. Or decision theology?

Tony Arsenal 26:01
Yeah, absolutely. I just have one thing to say about that Jesse. I don't know why you're clapping I'm talking about you. You totally are channeling Paul washer right now

Jesse Schwamb 26:17
doesn't make a reference to to Britney Spears.

Tony Arsenal 26:20
Yeah, it's funny because if you look up his own reflection on that sermon he actually kind of admits that that sermon was a little bit of a train wreck. Yeah, it was just good he recognizes that like in the heat of the moment he went a little off base because at one point he says that repentance both precedes and follows faith and it's a white can't can't really do both. So yeah, he he he recognized that he was a little off kilter on that one.

Jesse Schwamb 26:45
The center of that is really good like it was a really unique challenge and it was kind of what we've been talking about here but it did on the peripheral there were some things said that it was some of that I think was just a matter of sloppy language. He's he's preaching passionately at the time and yeah, came out in a way that was slightly weird. But that is still remains like a challenging sermon, because it is all about the heart. It is all about the center of who we are and the desire for godly living, and that can only come through from God through the Holy Spirit. And it's something that we can't fake. But as human beings, we want to fake want the external science, we want to say, I did this thing, and therefore I know, or I read my Bible every day, like you said, going back to this idea of quiet time, which I hate that term. You know, we want to do these things, because it feels like it makes us more spiritual people. And it's really hard to separate us from that and say, like, what does the scripture say about what it means to be saved? That's just a much harder life to live. And it's not one that's like, I want to be clear, it's not one that is less identified and less secure. In other words, it's not like Well, there's no equivalent with what we're talking about to know for certain That you've been predestined or that God has saved you. Those assurances still come, but they come in a different way. And actually, this is a good segue because some of that I think we're going to see in this chapter from reform preaching by Yeah. Dr. beaky, We're on chapter 10. We're talking about some additional Puritans, we're just stacking them up stacks and stacks and stacks up here. And we're talking about three in particular, with the last names Rodgers saves. And Preston, those are great names. Yeah. And I want to pause real quick and say like before you turn off our voices, because you're like, I didn't read this chapter. I didn't read the book. Stay with us. It's not like an NPR thing. I think that's like a Yeah, stay with us. Because there's so much that's good in this chapter where you don't even need to read it. Because I think we're going to draw a lot of themes that are just practical, practical for Christian living, because that's what the Puritans did. So we're talking about these three guys. And the first thing I want to throw out to you that I find really interesting about this chapter is it kind of opens up with this statement that a lot of these preachers the reason why groups these guys together is they're coming out of the influence of Many others. And there's this spiritual lineage is almost like family tree of influence upon each other. And it struck me that good preaching good teaching. Mutual fellowship does result in this kind of thing. Like there's almost these we might look at them and say these all these circumstances were so and so heard somebody say this or so and so was present during this person's preaching and it just radically redefined or changed their lives. But isn't that the way God works is that what he draws us together and part of preaching is this dramatic influence that happens that's like sequential and derivative and gamma collective where there's there's ministers and congregants influencing one another, and radically changing the course of history because of a quote unquote, chance encounter.

Tony Arsenal 29:43
Yeah, yeah, you know, you and I, I think, I think you and I have always been very similar, but I think as we've done this podcast together over the last three and a half years or so, like we are, our perspectives have become more and more the same on things because that was the same exact thing that I picked up on when I read this chapter. Was there really is you know, you kind of look through this and you think i well i know Perkins, and then like the next chapter is, is you know john Bunyan comes down a little bit later and you like I know Perkins I know Bunyan. I know Calvin, I know bays, but like, Who are these guys? Like Willie? I know Ryan said like, Who's this Rogers and Preston's guy. And it's really important because there really is this spiritual lineage. There really is this trajectory that starts with Calvin and a lot of senses are swimmingly, and it really comes down through the reformed tradition. And and in a very real sense, it comes down to you and I today, it's not as though this this, this lineage stopped at some point. But you know, like, I if I had to point other than my own pastor, if I had to point to someone who was kind of like my most significant theological influence, I would say, Michael Horton, right. Sure. Michael Horton would probably point to RC Sproul RC school were probably points. JOHN Gerstner, john Kirschner would point to somebody else and Like, even just in that small amount of time, I can already identify four or five, like generations of influence, theologically, and if I really will really wanted to and have the time and energy, it probably would not be that difficult to trace out and figure out how that lineage goes all the way from where you and I are sitting today, all the way back to a person like Calvin, or to swimmingly because the lines, especially in the reformed tradition, the way that we are kind of a book driven and academic driven tradition. Those lines of academic transmission are very clear, and they're very interesting, and they're very important. And so, you know, he starts off this chapter with this whole this paragraph that basically is this this genealogical family tree, right? Perkins was the professor of this guy and this guy was the pastor of this guy, and then this guy mentored that guy, and it really is this organic development and lineage that really is very much like a family tree.

Jesse Schwamb 31:59
Yeah, You're absolutely right. What we know we need is, you know, like the seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon, we need a reformed equivalent of that.

Tony Arsenal 32:07
We could do that. That'd be a fun game. I don't know how I mean, it'd be like the first time we did it. And then after that would be like, I don't know.

Jesse Schwamb 32:15
But the idea is solid because, and this is where like, it translates into even like, just normal kind of casual conversation is, we never know exactly what God is doing. But we know that when we're preaching the gospel, and it's on our lips, when it's part of conversation, but especially when it's being proclaimed on the Lord's Day, something incredible is happening there. And that also means that somebody may come into our churches on the Lord's day and be so radically transformed. But again, what the thing is a random kind of chance encounter. But this is the way that God desires and often does work. And these gentlemen are good example that some of just just heard one sermon. And it wasn't because there was great oration present it was because the gospel was just being preached in its entirety, without kind of any kind of barn ish. And the Holy Spirit moved through that in a way that was predestined. And one of the things I want to kind of speak about with respect to Richard Rodgers, who's the first person mentioned here, now all these guys were talking about. They were came out of Cambridge University in the late 16th century. And they had this kind of common bond that we united around reformed doctrine. And this idea of living in a secular culture with a specific bent toward pursuing godliness. So there's something in that by itself that's very admirable that we ought to try to emulate right. One of the things I find really interesting about Rogers that I want to throw out there for discussion is his emphasis as Dr. PQ describes on the doctrine of predestination. And this actually was one of the things I was thinking about with my denial of the sinners prayer as a type of indulgence. So here's a quote from page 176. This is Rogers describing predestination and I think it's really illustrative how he articulates his position, he says, predestination itself is manifested in time, by the enlightening and opening of the heart to receive the glad tidings of the gospel. So that Christ is embraced by faith. And the Holy Ghost is given to the believer who quickens the heart with spiritual grace. Yeah, so I see this actually standing in complete juxtaposition to this decision theology that we just spoke about, because it's not as if we're saying, when you were saved, you're saved all at once. There's a moment of justification. But this idea that predestination itself is manifested in time. So God is working by means and the experience of conversion comes in stages. I think that's something that is really undervalued, as we speak about it. It's almost like when you become a Christian, where you have become like, fully a Christian, and there's a sense, which is true. I'm not debating that in terms of just justification by faith. But this idea that we must somehow exhibit a fullness or our full fullness, and compared to his idea that it's being manifested, like displayed through time. I think is is really under-valued. So let's say you about that.

Tony Arsenal 35:02
Yeah, I mean, that's a common thing that happens in Reformed theology where we have to understand that what God decrees in eternity past, has to unfold in time. Like he he decrees our salvation in eternity past. So in one sense, we are saved from all eternity. Right? Voss talks about it. I think it's in, I want to say it's dogmatic. Number one, maybe, or maybe number two, I don't know. It's one of the first two volumes. He talks about how, you know, we have a particular kind of union with Christ, in eternity past in the mind of God, pro logically and chronologically prior to our own creation. So in a certain sense, we are created already being comprehended as united to Christ. Right, but that that eternal reality that eternal comprehension of us as united to Christ still has to unfold and play out in time. So that's a slightly different angle at the same concept that that Rogers getting at here. But that idea that even though God has determined in eternity past that certain things would come to pass. Right. Westminster catechism, the decrees of God are His eternal purposes whereby according to the according to the purpose of his own will, for his own glory, he hath for ordained whatsoever comes to pass, he has utterly determined it, but it still has to come to pass so that that dynamic is something that is present in a lot of different elements in Reformed theology.

Jesse Schwamb 36:37
And so that's the kind of thing where we're talking about the conversion process. The order salute is and this idea of a sinners prayer. This is helpful because I think it shows us who demonstrates a proper properly based on the biblical data, that conversion is something that happens or as experienced in stages, such that part of that is the bearing of the fruit, the proof, so to speak, that's in the evening. of the pudding. And what I love about Rogers, and the rest of these guys, actually, is that they're so practical in their Christianity. That Yeah, they're willing to almost admit that these things don't happen exactly the way that we would, we'd want them to. In other words, they don't make anything simple. There aren't things that are more complex, more nuanced, and they don't shy away from those things. And yet at the same time, they're pushing us toward practical Miss because, or practicality because I think oftentimes, like we talked about before the Puritans get this bad rap is like these really super smart and kind of guys that spoke a lot about complicated theology, wrote tomes and tomes of material. And most of it was divorced from like what you do on Monday morning when you're just like a labor. And so what's interesting is that Roger is best known book, and I've heard of this, but I totally forgotten about it until Dr. beaky brought it up in this chapter. Let me just read the title of soap erupted and it's so awesome. So Rogers best known book is called seven treaties containing such direction as gathered out of the Holy Scriptures, leading and guiding to true happiness both in this life and in the life to come, and maybe called the practice of Christianity.

Tony Arsenal 38:15
I love that the title of this book is three lines long.

Jesse Schwamb 38:20
So good. And what I did was, I don't know if you did this kind of thing. But sometimes I'll see a book like this come across some page and I'm reading and I go obediently to Amazon, you actually can't find this thing real. Yeah, it's really difficult to find it. So I've read excerpts from it. But it's actually these seven treaties. And he mentions what each of them are, but they're so insanely practical, that what we're getting here is this idea of experience or preaching. It aims really high it sets like goals that are heavenly minded, but at the same time, it really speaks out about obstacles and inward warfare. Yeah, and that's what we need. A lot of preaching these days is a little bit one or the other. It's so high up there kind of like I don't even know where to start with this. And I've been this way to sometimes there's a bias against this idea of applications, like just give me meat. Yeah, tell me what to do. Like, I need to process that for myself and I need to wrestle and really figure it out. And yeah, and other times, there's no speaking about the struggle that that takes to apply this even in the power of the Holy Spirit, the constantly seeking to be filled by the Holy Spirit, so that we might actually live this out on by faith and in obedience. But these guys did a really good job of bridging that gap and making it not taboo to speak about both things with consonant harmony.

Tony Arsenal 39:38
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I think is interesting, right, it's not the case that the so called Puritan ethic or Puritan understanding of the commandments, like came into being with Rogers, but BQ makes the point here that this manual that Rogers produces really sort of kicks the These ethical positions are these moral positions, it really sort of like advances them into the popular mindset. So if you look at the way that Calvin reflects on the 10 commandments, right in the 1500s it's not it's not substantively different than what we have in the Westminster Confession in the 16. You know, 1640s. But Rogers here really, this manual includes these reflections on Christian moral practice. That really becomes like the program for godly living in the academic in popular mind in ways that it hadn't quite been before. So you can't under emphasize how important Rogers actually is. When you think about puritanical morals. You're really talking about Rogers book of that ridiculously long title, right? That's what we're talking about, not not necessarily what we think of in like, you know, like this Salem Witch Trials people think of like the Salem Puritans or the Salem pilgrims. That's a really late late application of this. The Puritan moral, the Puritan ethic really finds its fruition in Elizabethan England.

Jesse Schwamb 41:13
Right? And there's this just to give an example. The fourth treatise in the fig tree is the fourth is eight reasons why Christians should practice the daily disciplines of godliness. I want to get that Yeah, cuz like I read that and I think, yeah, like, that's what I need. Like, I basically need to have you tell it to me like I'm a fifth grader. Yeah. You know, like, it's, it's not that we can't understand complex things because God in His great graciousness, has condescended to give us that knowledge often. It's that what we desperately need is to know sometimes how to apply it and why it's worth wild into be. I think that that's part of the transformation of the mind. And the fifth treatise examination of the obstacles to walking with God. For example, see in leaving our first love evil in worldly lusts, again, I read that it was like how can I get A copy of that. Yeah, exactly. I just see that as the kind of thing that on Monday morning. That's what I need to be made mindful of what can I do to apply that? I love what Becky says on page 179 commenting about all of the stuff that Rogers puts together, and this is such an amazing and well articulated indictment against modern evangelicalism, so BQ rights. They want an easy Christianity that is us with a Christ who meets all their immediate desires, they may tolerate some discipline in the outward life to attain their earthly goals. However, it is common that they use the banner of grace alone, to claim that spiritual blessings come easily once you find the right key without pain or wrestling against evil. And yeah, that just like set me on my back, because for me, I tried to be a person that is disciplined when it comes to goal setting. And so I think oftentimes he he's very right in the sense that sometimes we can see that type of goal setting we think is not spiritually minded because there should be this overwhelming sense sense of grace and mercy that to set goals toward godliness seems to be counterintuitive because we don't want to smack of anything that's meritorious. But when I look at Jesus, one of the things I admire so much about him that I believe I've mentioned before, is that he is so disciplined, so disciplined, and I think that was by design, because God shows us the discipline of his son, for people, especially like me who say, I could not respect a god man, who wasn't the one who was going out early and separating himself from people forsaking sleep, to go be with the Father to pray. There is in that this intense desire to be with the Father that has manifested in action that we ought to observe, not merely as something that was unique, a particular to the Son of God who is imbued with the entirety of the Spirit, but something also that we ought to emulate. So this is again, like I know that we've kind of, we run into this line of like to try harder, where we're trying to like get to that line as you and I talked about it without going over it and going into some kind of heresy. This is kind of like the be like Christ, like be disciplined in your walk with God, do not accept an easy Christianity. There is no soft stuff when it comes to life with God within the power that he brings into our lives, and the way in which we ought to order our lives by way of discipline to meet with him. Does that make sense?

Tony Arsenal 44:19
It does. Yeah, I mean, there really, you really can't. You can't overestimate how much godliness and piety was central to the the self conception and understanding of the Puritans. And, you know, sometimes I wonder, I think, do we, as modern reformed Christians, because I don't actually even consider myself an evangelical anymore. But do we as modern reformed versions, right? Do we consider godliness and piety to be at the core of our very identity the way the Puritans did? And right I can say most of the time I do not right. I am All these different things that I would consider to be the center of my identity, and you know, on on the best day, most of them are related to my faith and to my identity in Christ. And you know, then there's other things. I'm a podcaster. I'm a husband, I work at the hospital, like there's other things that are accidental to my identity. But for the for the Puritan, all of those things. And this goes to that idea of the vocational understanding that even so called secular profane work is still made holy when it's done unto the Lord. Right, those things that we would consider accidental to our identity, even if we consider our identity in Christ as substantial or Central. Those things now become about piety and godliness in the Puritans in a way that I don't think we can quite grasp yet. So if anything that's a challenge to us is, you know, we really should look at the Puritans not as some sort of like legalistic you know, puritanical, crazy overly obsessed with holiness in the law kind of people, but as a people for whom the law of God was the pathway to understand what it meant to truly find your identity in Christ, right? If you truly have your identity in Christ, then you will walk and live and learn and love like Jesus Christ in a way that I don't think most of us even are our it's not even on our radar most of the time.

Jesse Schwamb 46:25
Exactly. Man, that was so good. And so anti indulgence.

Tony Arsenal 46:29
Yeah, forget indulgences.

Jesse Schwamb 46:31
Forget them.

Tony Arsenal 46:32
I don't even like I don't even like fancy chocolate because it's too indulgent.

Jesse Schwamb 46:38
we indulge in nothing, nothing, nothing. So let's talk real briefly about Richard Sims. It's kind of like a way to close out. Because I mean, Sims is the man but I love this. I want to throw this quote out. And I think is it a real good encapsulation of what sieves taught and there's something in it that's drew me back to conversations you and I've had before and God has really honestly transformed my mind in thinking and give me new convictions. So this is on page 181. And it's a quote from Deborah about sibs, he writes, sibs taught that the primary means Christ used to prepare his elects hearts for salvation, was by the Ministry of the gospel, hearing begets seeing in religion, death came in by the ear at the first Adam hearing the serpent that he should not have heard, death came in by the year. So life comes in by the year and quote, here's what struck me about this quote, I read this and I was like, man, is this not once again, coming strong against the second commandment images of Christ? Yes, it is. I was thinking this idea of he's making an interesting emphasis that it's hearing as the Apostle Paul speaks of this hearing of the word. It's interesting that he doesn't say seen but get seeing. He's saying hearing itself begets all the seeing that you need. It goes back again to something that john Owens has said, so I was just like, man here again, we see that theme coming up how important it is. That we see by faith and not by sight. And it's that hearing again, going back into the Lord's Day, and having the word proclaim to us, not just read in our own minds book for crying to us that the thing is that big gets the seeing.

Tony Arsenal 48:15
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, this goes back to the very beginning of when we started talking about periods in preaching. Right. So we're going back like two months now, and we had this sort of general Puritan preaching episode is that for the Puritans, the preaching of the gospel was everything. Everything that God was doing in the world in the world, was brought about by the preaching of the word, whether it was cultural transformation, whether it was societal, you know, governmental transformation, whether it was personal transformation, whether it was ecclesiastical transformation, everything was brought about primarily by sermons. So even even the fact that they collected sermons to be written, there was something unique about the sermons and, you know, we have Faith, as I've said before, like our faith is a word based faith. It's not a site based faith, it will they will someday be a site based faith in heaven when we're able to comprehend the you know, the risen Christ with our eyes. But it right now it's a it's a hearing based word based faith. And that's something that I think the Puritans even more than Calvin even more than swimmingly I think the Puritans got that in a way that that I think even some of their earlier predecessors didn't quite get. And you know, even I'm going to sound like the most curmudgeonly person in the world right now. But you know, so, you know, I was always prior to coming here. I was always involved in churches that had PowerPoint presentations, and skits and videos and things to sort of like keep your attention with your I know, we would do video announcements that had like funny commercials, basically one of these mega churches I was at, and now that I'm at a church where we don't have we don't have a projector, we don't have technology like the closest thing to have visual aid we have is like a hymnal that we can sing and read out of, and and the Bible itself. It really is refreshing to be to be forced to depend on the faculty of hearing in terms of receiving the gospel. Because that's that's the way that God intended it, or he would have, he would have, he would have inspired a picture book. Right. At the end of the day, the Bible is not a picture book. So So yeah, I mean, regardless of what your views are on the second commandment, and whether it applies to images of Christ or not, it still doesn't change the fact that our faith is predominantly if not exclusively, a word based faith at at this juncture in redemptive history.

Jesse Schwamb 50:41
I think that's among the stronger arguments among many for why images of Christ are a violation the second commandment, yeah, but it extends like you said, it's far reaching. One of the things that absolutely annoys me so much is this new technology where I mean I have no problem with the fact that Oftentimes the easiest way to communicate to a congregation that words that are about to sing is to put them on the screen. I can get down with that. Yeah, I'm totally fine. It's now like, I don't know if you've seen this where the current, the new iteration of that is to have some kind of image behind the screen that is constantly moving. Yeah, there is, you know, like twinkling stars, something like that. This kind of stuff. We think it's cool. And it is to some extent, it just does not belong, in my opinion, because it is it is ultimately a distraction. And what I find interesting is that sip says in this chapter, in his own words, it's not sufficient to preach Christ, merely by teaching people the doctrines of the Bible, rather, there must be an alluring of them for to preach is to woo. And when I read that, I was thinking, yes, pastors coming to us, unless you're in love with Christ, unless like what you're doing is not just mere teaching of doctrine, in fact, in fact, one of the things that john Preston says in his section is that the sermon isn't this running commentary of the Bible, but a structured discourse with distinct points where there is this wooing this pleading this passionate love that comes across for Christ that must be present in a sermon. And I know too many pastors that most of what they do is this reoccurring, or this kind of running re emphasis or regurgitation of just the story, the narrative in particular of a text. So like, Here, let me give an example that's like super nuanced, and just totally pigeonholed to it. Probably a select group, but you've seen the whole sitcom series, parks and recreation, right?

Tony Arsenal 52:35
Most of a

Jesse Schwamb 52:37
what, you haven't seen the whole thing?

Tony Arsenal 52:38
No. I'm a Christian. So.

Jesse Schwamb 52:48
Okay, so anyway, there's this MBC I think it's NBC sitcom. Yeah, Parks and Rec. It's about a small town in Indiana and their Parks and Recreation Department. But there's this one particular episode. where they're supposed to be debates for one of the the, the actors and the it's going to be televised to the all these participants who have donated a lot of money and they can't get the TV to work because this the cable has not been paid the cable bill. And so just stall for time. One of the people on the team who is part of this effort to try to get this person elected, starts to reenact all these Rambo movies and just goes through and tells the narrative, and I'm just not gonna be able to do justice. I can't do the interpretation. But those who don't know what I'm talking about Andy Dwyer is the character name does this whole thing about like, Rambo where he's talking about like, I mean, seeing the Rambo movies, but so hilarious. He talks about like, you know, the missionaries come up and they're like, we want to go upstream. Iran was like, I don't think so. And they're like, no, we're going to go up and do that. And he's like, what kind of weapons do you have? And he goes to this whole thing was just like kind of almost just telling the story over and over again. It's hilarious. So now I have this joke with my wife. Whenever I hear a pastor that's that's all they're doing. All I can see now is Andy Dwyer, reenacting the Rambo movies, and I think that's what's happening here is you're just we just read it together. And the most important part of the sermon is the scripture which has been read. What we need now is to have the truth unfolded to us, as Steve says, and for us to be wooed, so to speak, and we've spoken a lot about the difference between preaching and teaching. I love that emphasis. I think there's something there that unites appropriately. Passion. Yeah, for an exegetical focus on the scriptures.

Tony Arsenal 54:24
Yeah, yeah. Before we round out the episode, I do want to touch briefly on something that I observed that I thought was interesting in the little section here on john Preston, is, you know, we've talked a lot in this series about how experiential preaching is not necessarily a style, right? It's not it's not necessarily even a method. It has more to do with the aim and the the intention of the sermon to actually connect with the hearts of the people and, and influence them, not just in their mind, but also in their heart. And so one of the things that I think it's interesting is in in our modern context, a lot of times like non left to continue or not expository preaching is looked like really looked down on, even if it's something like redemptive historical preaching, which is more common in kind of the Westminster Street, Westminster seminary stream of thinking like reform forum, kind of that, that end of the Reformed theology spectrum. But it's interesting when when BQ here is talking about john Preston, is he makes the point that it's not just a running commentary on scripture, right? We talked about that with sits here. But he makes that point with Preston as well. That what Preston does, is he very quickly gets through the text, he very briefly if at all comments on the expository meaning of the text, and he goes straight to the meaning and the application of the text. And so he points out that Preston Preston preached a four sermon series on Romans 117 In this series, he points out three doctrines that the righteousness is revealed offered in the Gospel to many, that by faith we are made to partake of this righteousness and that faith has degrees in every Christian should grow from one degree to another. Now first of all the the amazing this of pulling those three points out of one verse and they being doctrinally sound is just flabbergasting. So good. But he goes on to point out that he does this in a lot of ways by asking questions about the text, which which is not necessarily positing the text, right? It's when when you go to do an exegesis of a text, you're you're trying to bring the meaning out, and you bring that meaning out by by asking certain kinds of questions. But what Preston seems to do here, at least if I'm reading BQ correctly, that's really I think, ingenious and very unique, is he actually preaches by means of those exegetical questions, rather than kind of doing exit Jesus publicly which The way a lot of expository preachers do, like like john MacArthur actually sort of refuses to do application, he doesn't think that there's a lot of value in that. He just executes the text from the pulpit and then kind of sits down. But what Preston does is he actually sort of like brings the congregation through that exercise of asking these questions of the text. And what he ends up doing is he's teaching his congregation how to apply the Scripture. And then he supports all this argumentation by making reference to other scriptures. So it's this really brilliant methodology. I mean, we've said it a bunch of times, like we're not that far into this book. And even if we were on the last chapter, this is the internet folks, you can always go back and listen to the old episodes again. So pick up the book and read it like it's an amazing book. And there's all these little insights that as we've said, if you're if you're the kind of person who has some sort of preaching responsibilities, I'm 100% confident that reading and metabolize in this book will make you A better preacher. I have very limited preaching responsibilities at the church. I think I preach maybe six times a year, maybe maybe five times a year. But I can tell you that reading this book has already changed how I approach crafting and thinking about a sermon. And I think really fruitful ways. And if you're not someone who's engaged in the task of preaching, reading this book will really help you to understand as a as a person who's being preached to what you should be listening for in the sermon, why it's important for you to be actually paying attention to sermon, light, right, make more sense to actually take your head up out of your notes and listen to the preacher make eye contact once in a while, instead of being fastidious about getting every little jot and tittle of the the the information that's being communicated to you down. It really is a phenomenal, amazing book. We're not that far into it. You can still join us on this. You can pick it up pretty much anywhere, Amazon Westminster books, you know, Christian, book.com, anything. So pick it up. It's It's a great book.

Jesse Schwamb 59:02
One of the surprising things for me about this book has been just the way in which we've kind of had this conversation that's like a bicycle wheel was so many spokes. So at the center is the reform preaching, but there's all these things emanating from it. And so for anybody that's thinking, I'm not a pastor, and I'm not really into preaching like that. I hear your heart, I understand what you're saying. But consider like, one of the things one of the main, here's just a random quote that beaky throws out on page 184, that just just to leave some people with because it's the kind of thing you can expect from this book. He says, True Religion is not just the ability to talk and think, but a mysterious knowledge in the heart. We do not really know God's grace until his grace is within us. Yeah. So you know, all this kind of these kind of like amazing observations, because when we're going through speaking about these types of preachers were to get a sense for what they believe was the center of their ministry. And that by itself is so valuable because it's not just about the discipline of preaching, but why they preached and so we've talked about even this episode, everything from What it means to read your Bible versus what it means to be preached to what it means that we ought to live in obedience, what predestination means how we might understand that's being manifest in our lives. So it's not like this is just entirely a strict manual about, here's how you craft a sermon. There's certainly great parts of that. But well above and beyond that there's so much practical meat here that we can chew on for Christian living day to day for all of God's people. And that's, that's kind of caught me by surprise and 3ds.

Tony Arsenal 1:00:29
And

Jesse Schwamb 1:00:30
I'm so glad it's part of the writing.

Tony Arsenal 1:00:32
Yeah, I agree. I think this book is just phenomenal. And I think, you know, there are a couple figures in the theological landscape right now that I think we will look back on in future generations as really giants of the faith, similar maybe not to the extent but similar to the way we look at Calvin or beta now, who you know, honestly, like Calvin was not that well. Appreciate During his time as as a person living in writing on Earth, he just wasn't. It wasn't until the next generation or even the second generation after that got a hold of his works, that they realized how really important he was. And I think, you know, RC Sproul now that he's gone, I think we all realize how significant he was. Sinclair Ferguson is probably another one of those fingers. And I really genuinely think that in terms of our theology of preaching and our understanding of practical piety, Joe beaky really is among that list of men that we will look back on in future generations as someone who had an outsized influence. And the beauty of it is that we have access to him, not only through his writing, but through his preaching through his podcasting, through his work at Pearson reformed seminary, God willing, someday we'll have access to him through the interview on this podcast it it really is amazing to interact with his work as it's coming out because I really think he'll be one of those fingers.

Jesse Schwamb 1:01:57
I agree. So let me kind of ended this way, because will bring us full circle with this idea of, of lineage. We have stood on the shoulders of so many people that God has in our lives, both say like in a more formal sense by way of their teaching people we don't know and then many that we do. And one of the ways that God has used people to influence us, and I think push forward, his kingdom is just in the support of this tiny little conversation that happens on the corner of the internet, on two microphones from people that don't even live in the same place. Yeah. And so there are so many people, there are many people that give their money to this podcast. And I want to say once again, thank you so much for regularly giving, because there are a lot of incidental expenses. And just the fact that you and I do not have to carry that burden is something that is beyond just a blessing. I see that as like a sacrifice of praise. So of course, yeah, your first opportunity and your first obligation should always be to your local church. If however, there is some way in which you are feeling that God is leading you to want to support the little conversations that Tony I have You are blessed by them, we would love for you to support that. And any gifts, small or large, we will never say no. We cover prayers, and we covered the financial support equally. And you can look us up on Patreon, right? Yeah, that's how most people give.

Tony Arsenal 1:03:15
Yep, Patreon, you can look up a reformed brotherhood on Patreon. Or if you want to do just a direct PayPal, you can send it to reform brotherhood at gmail. com on paypal. And we really, really do appreciate, you know, every gift we get whether it's large or small, because, you know, as Jesse said, like, there's not a lot of expenses that we have. But we want to make sure that we're being wise and stewarding our resources well, and so to not have to make the decision between whether we produce this podcast or whether we, you know, contribute to our local church in a more direct way, is really, really beneficial. And, you know, it's not I'm quick to say that in one sense, this show And what we do with the podcast is not a ministry and like a capital M, the sense of the word ministry. Right. But it isn't a lot of ways it is a vocational ministry like this is something that I, I'm really convinced that God has called us to do. And I know he's called us do it, because we're doing it like that that's part of his revealed will that he's brought us to this place where we're doing this podcast. And we really couldn't do it not only without the financial support of people who listen, but without the people who call in leave us voicemails for question cast, without the encouraging emails we get without the feedback that we get from people on Facebook with ideas and thoughts about the podcast, without the people who challenge us to think about things in different ways or ask hard questions that we haven't thought about before. So we really appreciate that the reformed Brotherhood is not just this show that Jesse and I do, but it really has become this community and this network that really serves to to further and to preach the gospel in its own non ecclesiastical way. And I think in a way that I hope supports the ministry of the church as well.

Jesse Schwamb 1:05:03
Well, this is definitely been the definitive 150 eighth episode. It has ERB

Tony Arsenal 1:05:09
I can agree with that.

Jesse Schwamb 1:05:10
Okay, good. I figured I could get you on board with that. So, in that vein until next time, honor everyone,

Tony Arsenal 1:05:16
love the Brotherhood.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai