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Tony and Jesse discuss Thomas Goodwin and John... Jack... William... Someone named Shephard.

Jesse Schwamb 0:10
Welcome to Episode 166 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony and this is the podcast where we are our brothers keepers.

Hey, brother,

Jesse Schwamb 0:33
brother, what a great intro. We are brothers keepers.

Tony Arsenal 0:37
We are I'm going to very quickly I'm going to run out on those. So please, brotherhood forgive me if I start to repeat them. I didn't get any suggestions from the Facebook group or from Twitter or by carrier pigeon or any other way of people getting messages to us. I need I need your help rather than me. I got to help me come up with some some taglines that I can can use in the intro here.

Jesse Schwamb 1:01
Speaking of getting in contact with our brothers and sisters, do you mind if I just launches right into affirmations, the denials?

Tony Arsenal 1:09
Let's do it.

Jesse Schwamb 1:10
So I'm going to start on the other end, flip it up reverse it. I'm going denials first, and I'm denying against unrealistic expectations and goals. So yeah,

so um, let me start by saying I'm a man of my word. And so I'm going to absolutely follow through when I though explain to my wife that you and I had set up this impromptu on air wall podcasting challenge that if 200 persons joins our recently resurrected Facebook group that I would make my foray I would wade into the waters called me out onto the waters of facebook and join. She was like, why is that number so low? And I was like, is it low? I don't know. It seems like a reasonable expectation at the time. And so I think within like, less than three days, though.

Tony Arsenal 1:58
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to say Say that I tricked you. But I kind of tricked you.

Jesse Schwamb 2:02
Yeah, what happened here?

Tony Arsenal 2:04
I mean, we would have met, we would have met the goal anyways, there was already like 40 people in the group when we made that deal. But we would have gotten to 200. And either way, that was why when you said like, you mean by the end of January was like, No, like the end of December? Because it took like two days. I mean, I'll be honest, like, all I did was add, like, invite every person that's liked our Facebook page to the group. And apparently there are people who have liked our Facebook page that don't actually know what the show is. Because there's people who ended up in the group from the Facebook page that are like, what's this thing? But slynt but we did hit 200. It was actually said the episode released on Wednesday morning, and I think that it was like before the end of the work day on Thursday that I sent you the final screenshot and was like, It's time.

Jesse Schwamb 2:59
It's time. It's So I'm going to join the plan is definitely to join. Hopefully I carve out some time this week to do I don't know, give over my social, whatever I have to give to, for them to allow me in. And so probably I would say sometime after this episode airs, I'll drop in there and just let the insanity begin. I want to start by saying that me joining this group is going to be a fun adventure. Yeah, primarily because I have no idea what I'm doing on Facebook. So this is great. There's actually

Tony Arsenal 3:28
like an interview with Zuckerberg you have to do to get in. Yeah, that's actually it's actually very hard to join Facebook. I don't know if you knew that or not.

Jesse Schwamb 3:38
It seems like the barriers to entry.

Tony Arsenal 3:40
It's a very elite club that more than 50% of the human population join. That's a

Jesse Schwamb 3:46
part of that's what I hear. But here's what I'm more concerned about is I don't know any of like the Facebook mores like I have no sense for Facebook behavior in like, what are the little customs were like? How do you interact with people pulling away. Like, I feel like there's there is a custom structure and an interaction that is native to Facebook that's kind of grown out of that environment. And I guess I'll just have to learn it going, Oh, you know, like, in real time?

Tony Arsenal 4:12
Yeah. I mean, that's the beauty of like, the way that Facebook has these groups setup is that like every group will develop its own specific kind of like way of interacting and behaving. So I mean, I would imagine, because you were, you were way back in the day, you were a part of the reform pub, like briefly, environmentally, right? It probably won't be all that different than the interactions in the reform pub. It's not a replacement for the reform pub, as if anything could ever be a replacement for the reform pub. But a lot of the same kind of people that are in the reform pub are also in the Facebook group, a lot of the same, like major participants. So I would imagine they'll probably be a fair amount of overlap in the way that the group functions. But I'm excited. It's, it's already sort of shaping up with its own sort of flavor and its own sort of Life. So it'll be it'll be exciting to see you grow and blossom on Facebook, in this new sheltered environment that we're creating.

Jesse Schwamb 5:10
Alright party people out see in there.

Tony Arsenal 5:13
So tell you though the people, the people in the group are getting restless, wondering when you're joining. So I have to put up like a special announcement to look for you at the end of the week.

Jesse Schwamb 5:22
Yes, tell them I'm coming. I'll carve out some time. Yes. All my list of things to do. It's a busy week ahead. But it is a priority. But if there are people that even though there are 200, at least in there now, and I'm going to be joining under that commitment, if other people want to join in, how can they do that?

Tony Arsenal 5:39
You can just go to you can go to our web page, reform brotherhood calm. And on the link that says join the Brotherhood, which you'll see in the top menu. there's now an entry in there that will take you directly to the Facebook group.

Jesse Schwamb 5:51
Excellent. Come join me if I can get in there. Anybody can come in?

Tony Arsenal 5:55
Yeah, let's make sure that Mark Zuckerberg schedule is filled with all the interviews that he asked us. to do to get people on Facebook,

Jesse Schwamb 6:03
exclusive clubs. So what about you? What are you denying this week?

Tony Arsenal 6:06
So have you ever heard of the podcast revisionist history by my head? Well, so, Malcolm Gladwell wrote this book called David and Goliath. And have you have you heard anything about this book, I read it or anything.

Jesse Schwamb 6:19
I only know of the book, I have not read it.

Tony Arsenal 6:21
So it's kind of what you would expect from sort of your general secularist, who has some sort of familiarity. I mean, he's a historian and he, he's a pretty well read guy. So you can tell by the way he talks about it, that he's interacted with the Bible on uncertain levels. I think he probably has some sort of Christian background from his childhood. So he knows enough about the Bible to just get everything wrong. So the book is basically like about the underdog. So his first like introduction is telling the story of David and Goliath and is basically like, but what you don't realize is that David actually wasn't the underdog. And so he talks about like, how to David had an advantage because of his disadvantage was sort of sets up the whole book. So he just totally like, it's not even. It's not even like you're not David. It's like David actually was just he just was the guy who won the fight like and he should have won the fight. We shouldn't be surprised that he won the fight. Because Goliath was a giant he probably couldn't see and he certainly couldn't move. And a slinger could hit a hair from, you know, 100 yards away with like, basically a bullet. And on one level, like that's true, like David was an expert slinger realistically, like he, he probably shouldn't have been all that afraid of Goliath in terms of being able to hit him from far away, where he misses the boat and this is why it's a denial is that he misses what all non Christians who are reading that story would miss, is that David's victory comes from the Lord. Now whether that's a miraculous victory that he should never have had Or whether it's the Lord had been preparing him his entire life. I actually think that's probably that second part of the Lord had been preparing him his entire life for that victory, right? He He fought bears and lions and he probably didn't do that with his bare hands. He did that using his skills as a slinger and those kinds of things. But yeah, he gets it wrong because he makes it about David having the right skill set to overcome the giant. And and really, you know, we know from the account in the biblical account, really is because David trusted the Lord and he was the Lord's Chosen One to defeat the giants. That is why he had the victory. So I'm denying Malcolm Gladwell taking this tax completely out of context, and basically just using it for his own his own needs. And it's really funny because a really striking example of that is he actually takes a verse that's applying to solve the one where it says that he stood head and shoulders above the rest, and that like the people looked up to and he actually takes that verse and implies that it's about Goliath, so he's obviously not really trying to do it justice to what's actually going on in the text. He's just using it as like a foil and a background. So I'm denying that part of it.

Jesse Schwamb 9:07
That's a good denial. I just looked this up on goodreads. com so I can get a sense for what it's been rated by people have read it. It's rated 3.94 stars that have five. So it's not actually fantastic. But the full title to give people a sense for a little flavor. What's going on with what you just said, is David and Goliath, underdogs, misfits, and the art of battling giants. Yeah, so it definitely has that let's pull out extract some kind of like nugget that we think has potential for marketing purposes. And really turning into here's how you can leverage something of this story for your own life for your own purposes. Yeah, for your own greed and accomplishments. And that's a great denial, because this is one of the things I think we've talked about in the podcast before. A couple of chapters prior to the story, I think, is the linchpin for everything that follows. And especially with this encounter, because the Scripture is very clear that David was filled with the Holy Spirit. So all of this courage that he has coming into it is born out of, I think, the superintending will of God which has prepared him to actually do literal battle in this particular account, right? also the reason why he's he so courageous, he's boastful in the Lord is because he's still with the Holy Spirit. It's not just again, like he's a superhero. And all sudden, he's he just kind of pulls himself up by his own spiritual bootstraps, while he's watching this happen, and says, well, somebody's got to do something about this. It's because he's been taken over by the full power of the Holy Spirit. And so in that awakening that comes almost in a regeneration, so to speak, there he is courageous with that power. And that power is going to be manifested in God's ability to deliver Goliath into his hand. Yeah, by way of the skill set that God himself has developed. Right now. He even says so in in the Psalms, it talks about being trained, having his fingers in his hands being made ready for war, and all those things are tools that God uses. So you're absolutely right. I mean, there's so many stories, so many accounts in the Bible, that just gets stripped away. Spirituality. And it's so strange because they get extracted in this profoundly disturbing way. And then turned around and marketed and Miss marketed so, so much that they don't even mean anything remotely close to what God intended. And I guess this always happens in every generation and every time. Yeah, this story in particular, like Christians and non Christians get this one wrong all the time. Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 11:25
yeah. It struck me as I kind of reflected on that introduction and how, how he misuses and kind of abuses the concept of David and Goliath, like what's going on there? It struck me that there are 1000 Christian preachers that do exactly the same thing. For sure. So maybe we shouldn't be all that hard on a non Christian who looks at this text and goes, Yeah, let's let's use this as like a backdrop because he's coming. He comes at the Bible from what I can tell from his podcasts. And then there's some other verses and passages he uses in this book. He he definitely has like a biblical theme going on. Right? He's drawing from various parts of the Bible as kind of like seem passages. He has a very like Bible as literature vibe to it, which is not surprising from someone who just thinks that the Scripture is just ancient literature. But I will say this, he's, he's kind of cautiously respectful. I think of the fact that this is his history. So one of the things that struck me is, as a historian, he doesn't treat David and Saul and the rest of the biblical account like it's a myth. So he speaks he speaks about David and Saul, and and the history of Israel, as though it's actual history, which is a little bit rare among secular historians to treat Saul particularly saw once we get to David, it's a bit more well established archaeologically, but to treat solid a historical figure is something we don't see a lot. So it's it's

Unknown Speaker 12:55
a,

Tony Arsenal 12:56
it's an interesting book, in terms of the way that he's made use of this imagery or this this concept that he's kind of using as a backdrop.

Jesse Schwamb 13:05
If anything, it just shows the allure of the Bible with respect to its narrative and storytelling. There is something in this story that anybody who hears will take something away that's compelling from it. And so this idea that there's like an art to fighting giants is ridiculous. There really is no art. That's, of course, not the purpose of it. In fact, the purpose is that the Giants do overwhelm you that you need the deliverer, you need one who is the true Messiah who comes and wipes out all the Giants forever. And that all these guys failed at that attempt, no matter how great they were in their own time. So there's just so much irony there. But in any respect, it just shows you that there is an appreciation respect for the Bible, because almost we've talked about this before too. And this actually kind of goes into my affirmation. So much of this is about taking something from the scriptures extracting it and telling every other story with the theme or the motif. That is the biblical arc.

Tony Arsenal 13:59
Yeah. Yeah, what are you affirming?

Jesse Schwamb 14:02
I'm going to do like a twofer today only because like, again, that time of Christmas is approaching. And there's two things that came to my mind in particular, and they're both more or less light hearted. The first is one that's on the musical spectrum. And there's a piece of music that is not necessarily like overtly Christmas, but it's kind of like passively Christmas. So I don't find it like offensive or it's not trying to be like overly spiritual or overtly spiritual. And it comes from actually an animated short, that I think has one of the beautiful, most beautiful melodies that I've honestly ever heard. It is a beautiful piece of music. And I think everybody should listen to it if they haven't. It's called walking in the air, and it's by Howard Blake, daikon Galbraith, and Peter Autry. And this is from an animated short called the snowman. Have you seen this?

Tony Arsenal 14:54
I have many times.

Jesse Schwamb 14:56
So this piece of music walking in the air is just gorgeous. Jesus, it's got this almost it's in a minor keys got a haunting melody. It's sweet. It's sung by like a young boys choir. It's just beautiful. So look it up. It's walking in the air Howard like this for me. It just proves God exists in the sense that sometimes music is so powerful, so beautiful and so glorious that it evokes all these kinds of feelings and experiences that seemed to swell in your consciousness. And so this song does that for me, because I think it's like the perfect representation of like a mid winter's night. Yeah, well, crisp, dark, foreboding, and yet beautiful and mysterious. So walking in the air is that piece of music for me. And the second thing is something that's probably less spiritual, although it has kind of like roots, some would argue in some kind of spiritual sense. But everybody's familiar with A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens, written in 1843 and amazing piece of literature First, if you haven't actually read that book, because it's so often quoted, and at least the themes around this time of year. So often quoted all the tropes related to Dickens. But a lot of people haven't read it. It's so worth the reading. I just pick it up. It's it's amazing story. It's a great story, no matter how you feel about it, but I'm going to go out on a limb. I know people are going to really disagree with me on this. And I don't really care because I'm about to affirm that the greatest representation aside from the literary work of A Christmas Carol is a Muppets Christmas Carol,

Tony Arsenal 16:24
I am so 100% on your side on this one. I love Muppets Christmas Carol.

Jesse Schwamb 16:31
I know people gonna be like what about George see Scott? I don't care about Joyce's there was no rat in his version. Light the lamp, not the rat. Yeah, if you haven't seen him up, it's Christmas Carol. You definitely should see it. And for me, I'm not a big person that enjoys holiday movies. But this one to me is always hilarious. I really love it. I think it's so clever. There's so many funny lines. It's like just good, clean, fun. When there's nothing about this. Yeah, it's really offensive. It's just kind of a fun represent. And again, here's another story going back to we just talked about David and Goliath, that has so many themes, that about redemption. They're kind of manifested in the wrong way sometimes in this account. But there's so much in here that we want to gravitate towards this idea of love winning out of the nobody being beyond redemption, of having essentially a resurrection of sorts. And so I think the Muppets do it best. So I'm going Muppets Christmas Carol, all day.

Tony Arsenal 17:26
Yeah, it's just good and fun, although I do want to know how it is that a pig and a frog can produce children that are either pigs or frogs, but not some sort of strange pig frog hybrid.

Jesse Schwamb 17:41
It's a Punnett Square. It's recessive.

Tony Arsenal 17:43
Yeah, I don't. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think it is. It's the Muppet mystery brother Muppet mystery. Maybe Muppets are actually like a species in and of themselves. And they're not like Kermit the Frog isn't actually a frog. He's a muppet. That looks like a frog and Miss Piggy is a frog like a muppet. So Muppets can't nevermind, I'm getting way too into this.

Jesse Schwamb 18:05
You don't get this talk, another reform podcast. This is what people come to hear.

Tony Arsenal 18:08
It's true. I will say this about your first affirmation. This is one of those songs that I would be surprised if people heard it and they didn't go. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, this is one of those songs that really is all over the place. When you listen for it. You hear it in a lot of different places. Really, it's up? Yeah, I think it is. Because the first time that I heard it, I was like, Oh, yeah, I know this song. And, you know, I don't think it's like, it's not like you, you could be able to place it, but it's a melody that you've probably heard somewhere. If this is a beautiful melody, right? It really is. Yeah, it is a beautiful melody. I would actually take it a step further and encourage people not just to look up the to look up the song but to actually look up the animated short. I'm sure you can find the animated short all over the place online. It is just this sort of like really beautiful story about it's in the Short, you know, the short the snowman and it's just this beautiful story about a kid in a snowman. It's kind of like Frosty the Snowman without all like the silly nonsense. It's just like, it's just an interesting beautiful little animated short. It's kind of like all this stuff. I would love it. If Pixar did a new like Pixar eyes version of the snowman. I think that'd be a really cool thing for them to redo.

Jesse Schwamb 19:22
When people see this, if they look it up, it's the way in which it's animated is a unique style. Yeah, not it's almost like storybook animation. Yeah. So watercolors. Yeah, it's got kind of this really warm, comfortable feel to it that's, you know, expressive in a kind of a more artistic way. And it's really brief. So it's definitely worth watching. I mean, as by way of like spoiler and caeser triggers for people there is like Santa in it. But yeah, the Santa trigger is strong in this but beyond that, the whole score, the whole music that goes with it is really beautiful. And I actually, I don't know, there might be there. I'm trying to remember now. There might be narration but I don't think there's actually any conversing. It's that kind of story.

Tony Arsenal 20:04
Yeah, yeah, it's really good. I really like it.

Jesse Schwamb 20:06
Check it out. Alright, so what about you give me your affirmation.

Tony Arsenal 20:09
So I am reading this book or listening to this audio book rather called David and Goliath by Malcolm Gladwell.

I actually apart from what we talked about with the weird appropriation, which is interesting, because they talk all about, you know, like, the big thing is cultural appropriation. But apart from the weird appropriation of the biblical story and some of this biblical language, it's actually quite a good book. So I'm affirming the book, except for that part of it. And the book really is about rethinking the concept of advantage and disadvantage, and how a lot of times what we traditionally think of as a disadvantage, can actually be an advantage. And I was thinking about that, you know, let's think about that. In terms of martyrdom, right? We talked about martyrdom and how in the early church, the fact That people were being martyred for their faith actually turned into an advantage for the church. And yes, of course, we affirm that the Holy Spirit was acting and moving through this these terrible things. But martyrdom as a whole is actually a phenomena that is pretty consistently across the board. When you when you make someone a martyr for their cause, it actually forwards their cause more than it hurts it. So they talk about those kinds of themes about how, why the underdog why we shouldn't really be all that surprised when the underdog comes, you know, comes in and wins. So I would check it out. Like I said, if you can get past kind of this weird appropriation or misappropriation of biblical stories and imagery, the book is actually really interesting. I'm really enjoying it. It's really made me rethink a lot about how I'm going to look at the world. You know, thinking about one of the one of the most interesting stories that I think he tells us there's, there's this account of this, this like 11 year old girls basketball Team in California, and the coaches a father of one of the girls on the team, and he recognizes that he's never played basketball. And the girls are all pretty terrible at basketball. I've got like one or two decent players, but all the rest are really terrible. And so what he does is he he upsets the conventions of basketball. So I'm not a basketball player, we figured out that I know next to nothing about basketball when I figured that a point guard was actually a defensive position. And you let me say that and let me do that didn't even say anything. But in basketball, so I'm told by Malcolm Gladwell, you know, when when one team scores, the other team has to inbound the ball, and they have five seconds to do it or they the ball gets turned back over to their team. And then there's a certain amount of time that they have to get the ball from their end of the court to the other end of the court. And then there's a certain amount of time that they have once they do that to make the shot. And if they fail to cross those thresholds in the dedicated times, then the ball Return to the other team. And so this coach, he kind of upset all the conventions. Because in basketball usually what happens when one team is inbounding is the other team kind of jogs back to the rest of the court, and they just give them that half of the court and they don't oppose them. And so what this coach did is he taught his girls to simply not let them clearly inbound the ball. So they would be all over all of the people who were there to receive the ball. And something like 70% of the time, the other team was not able to properly inbound the ball and so went back to them. So they were able to then just make layups because they were already on their side of the court when they got the ball. And he's so he's using that example to show that like, the way that we the way that we think about the quote unquote, right way to do something that conventional way to do something, a lot of times when we're the underdog, we have to sort of circumvent or subvert that, that convention in order to be successful. So again, the David and Goliath story, David was expecting or Goliath was expecting another warrior of kind of this infantry type to come forward and to fight him on the field of battle in this sort of infantry way. And so the way David wins the victory is he comes forward and he's he's not an inventory person. So he's subverting the expectation, the, the military conventions of the day would have been that another infantry person comes forward, and they have that one on one, like you think of like Achilles and Hector, right. That's the that's the kind of fighting that was anticipated. And so David wins the victory, as we've said, because the Lord was with him, but in sort of secondary causation, he wins the victory because he's a slinger and David is an inventory purse or Goliath is a imagery fighter, he didn't really have a chance, because David struck them down before he was even close enough to do anything about it. So so the book goes through a lot of those kinds of examples and it goes everywhere from people with dyslexia and how they've, some people are able to turn that from an advantage. A disadvantage to an advantage to the civil rights era where they turn kind of this martyrdom concept. They turn what what was being done to them and an advantage because they're able to sort of change the public perspective, by means of basically martyrdom. I mean, most of the time, not like losing your life martyrdom, but a lot of times it was that. So it's, it's a great book, he narrates it, and I love when an audio book is narrated by the author because they're, they understand the intonation and inflections that they intended when they wrote the book. So it's, it becomes a lot, a lot more engaging when it's the person who wrote the book. That's the narrator. And I really enjoy it. I think it probably merits more than 3.947 repeating or whatever it was on Goodreads. I haven't finished it yet. So maybe by the time I get done, I'm going to be like, yeah, that's a two but at least right now. At least right now. It's a solid for

Jesse Schwamb 25:57
your basketball knowledge is really improving. You really post stood up on that metaphor right there.

Tony Arsenal 26:02
I see what you did there.

Jesse Schwamb 26:03
Yeah, there we go. Speaking of basically giving you the alyou, you want to lead us into today's topic?

Tony Arsenal 26:12
Sure. So we are tracking along on our series on jobi keys reform preaching. And last last week, we talked about the Westminster directory of public worship, which was a little bit of an interruption in the way that the book has been going. We have been looking at specific figures in church history, particularly in the Puritan and reformation era. And we took this little break to talk about this significant document in what's called the second reformation called the Westminster directory of public worship, but now we're back at it with specific figures. And so in this, in this week, we're talking about Thomas Goodwin, and we're talking about I forgot his first name. I want to say john Sheppard. I don't think that's right, Thomas Thomas. Shepherd is it Thomas both them wow wow this is what happens when we don't prepare I just realized that I'm not able to like quickly place what this second guys first name is

Jesse Schwamb 27:16
they're both Thomas

Tony Arsenal 27:17
are they both Thomas? Well, Thomas Goodwin and Thomas Shepherd, which are two, two preachers who are sort of at the, you know, we talked about the the reformation, which is the figures we all know and love, you know john Calvin Martin Luther, john Knox, Theodore bays. And then we talked about the second reformation, which is kind of the next several generations two or three generations worth of people, what they did as they continued and further developed it. So most of the people you think of as English Puritans, those are second second reformation fingers or you talk about the Dutch reformation people like that master edge, who are kind of building on this Initial, this initial flourish or initial flurry of reformation there then further developing it so good one in Shepherd, our second reformation figures. And what I found really interesting about this chapter is he's using them almost as foils for each other, to present two different ways of preaching or two different emphases of preaching. And then what's what's strong about that and what potentially might be a little bit weak about that, which I really appreciate that he's, he's not. Dr. beaky is not just writing hagiography, right? He's he's willing to point out areas in people's preaching or in their theology that are are questionable or troublesome, or even potentially dangerous. I appreciate that he was willing to point that out.

Jesse Schwamb 28:46
There's a wonderful anecdote to start this chapter that I think is worth highlighting because this is what I hope can be said of like when you and I get together, I sometimes feel this way sometimes catch this in our conversations, and I hope that's probable for others that maybe are listening. So he talks How the Puritans preach the truth with hearts of flame. I just love that reference. And he quotes Cedric Simpson, who is writing about this dude Rogers and his preaching, but the quote is just amazing. I want to read it real quick. So the quote goes, some books are like a frosty day clear, but drying cold. He was a burning and shining light, having a heart and flamed with love to Christ truth in the souls of men. His words was sparks of fire. And so he talks about hearing these gentlemen preach and just catching fire. And I think that's part of what God has for us in the course of having conversations like this, which is why it's good to talk about these type of men who wouldn't Shepherd because in doing so, I think we ourselves get to help catch fire as the Holy Spirit illuminates the scriptures through the preaching that these guys did. So we start with Goodwin, what I was really impressed with is first just to give people from a reference. We're talking about dude who was born in 1600. Right? So this is kind of like to your point about Where we are in the scope of kind of the historical narrative. This guy graduated with a BA from Christ College in 1617. So he's only 17 years old, he had an MA, and then he got an or then sorry. Then he went and got an MA in 1620 sets. He's only 20 years old from St. Catherine's Hall in Cambridge. And then he was elected as a lecture there. So generally, there's like a different sense of we talked about the educational pedagogical environment of that time, but he's a wicked smart dude, like, as you'd say, in New England, like he's wicked. But here's what blew me away about this is oftentimes when we hear these gentleman's names, when we know that they're of like the Puritan ilk. We hold them up immediately on this pedestal as like, well here, man, privileged upbringing had amazing education probably grew up for the most part in homes that were unbelieving families. And Goodwin is really not that way exactly, because he actually grew up in the church, but then he had this kind of pivotal, almost crisis moment, where he was put up by the church and so he was determined to become a popular preacher just so he'd be accepted. By the Church of England, yeah, especially among those who really didn't like Puritan preaching. And he in according to his own testimony, even though he had all this knowledge he got through all this training. He was a wrongheaded and wrong minded in the direction he was going, essentially leveraging the gospel for his own purposes, that he says and confesses that he was only converted to the preaching of Thomas Bainbridge on repentance just before his 20th birthday. Yeah, so here's like a dude that's has a unique case example of the way that God grabs ahold of people. And that just because somebody was a Puritan preacher, doesn't mean that they didn't come through the come this force of reckoning in their own conversion, or come from a direction that was completely off course in which God rerouted them back onto the path back toward this kind of traditional Reformed theology.

Tony Arsenal 31:49
Yeah, and, you know, I think it's beneficial for us to talk a little bit about this account of kind of how good when, I don't know if I would say became converted But this experience he had when he was a teenager at the preaching of Rogers here, that sort of like awakens him to his need for the scriptures. And so I won't go through the whole thing. But essentially, it's interesting because this is almost like a little case study in Puritan preaching, although I don't know if I would, if Rogers would necessarily be considered a preaching john Rogers here or be considered a Puritan. But he has this experience where this preacher named john roberts is preaching to, to a group that Goodman is a part of, and Rogers basically is doing almost like a one man skit. He's he impersonates, or he takes on the persona of God, and says to the people, I'm going to take the scriptures away because you've neglected it. And this is a real thing in this era, because in the English church, right, we have to remember the context here is that the English church, although it wasn't the first it was probably the most widespread church. To finally bring the scriptures to the vernacular language to bring it out of the Latin or, in some instances, other kinds of academic languages, mostly Latin, to bring it into a vernacular language that the average person could could at least understand if it was read to them, let alone read themselves. And so, Rogers is presenting this skit, essentially where he personating impersonates God and threatens to take the Bible away from them. And so he actually takes the puppet Bible, and he closes it and he begins to walk away. And then as he's walking away, he shifts his his persona to be now the people weeping and begging for God not to take the scriptures away. And so as he does this, then he switches back to God in this skit, and says Fine, I'll leave it here for a little while longer. And and you will say, we'll find out whether you love it or not. Whether you practice it more whether you live more, according to it. And it was this sort of skit that Goodwin observed. It says he went out and he he got on his horse. And for like a half an hour, he just wept over the fact that he had neglected the Bible. And so he says he would go on at that point, and he would become a mighty preacher of the word himself. And now there are these like, starts and stops that we talked a little bit about. He's actually denied communion by his tutor when he's in, in his training. And he, he kind of like, puffs himself up, and it's like, I'll show these guys. But he's still he's still points back to that experience of having this this. The reality of the threat of God's Word being taken away from him is is part of what he points back to to say that's when I decided that I needed to be a preacher. And so even though he has these fits and starts the starts and stops, he still had this this throughput or this kind of thread throughout his time as in training, where he was being being pulled towards the Word of God is kind of the source of life.

Jesse Schwamb 35:04
And this is what I think is really instructive and illustrative for us, like you and me, people that are probably listening to us have the same type of turn of mind is I look at this example. And actually, when you start to catalog, the number of reformers, number of theologians, a number of those, whom we would call out to as examples of those who are mighty in the faith, to preach the Word of God faithfully, that this kind of experience is actually not all that uncommon. Because I think what's difficult sometimes is when you have a turn of mind or a penchant for wanting to understand the logic of the Scriptures, and because the scriptures are logical by God's beautiful design, we can mistake the complexity in the compulsion in the intellect for that of the heart. And until I think you have an experience like this, it's sometimes hard to see that is possible that you can think that you are identifying with God in the most profound In real way, and not yet not realize that your emotions have not been arrested by His love and His grace. Yeah. And so I think what you're seeing here is that all synergizing that coming together for Goodwin and I prayed that kind of thing comes together more for me because it's easier for me to give the intellectual assent to the Scriptures than it is sometimes to be moved by compassion, which is really one of the major themes that Goodwin preaches on, and to be undone emotionally and to weep before the Lord either because of this sense of neglecting something profound and beautiful the He's given us, or because we do not really understand him. You know, it's one thing in this day and age to read the scriptures, and to meditate on the names of God, or the names of Jesus Christ. It's another thing to understand them an intimate relationship, and we need both and so we shouldn't punish one over the other, and we certainly shouldn't punish them, or we shouldn't judge them rather By their extreme positions or their abuses, so there's emotionalism and we want to stay far away from that. And then there's just egghead ism. And we want to stay far away from that. So the somewhere in between God wants to bring together the mind and the heart and consummate unity. And so I think we have here is is good when, after all that education perhaps, and then being rejected, like you said, in the church, it really it's a profound rejection, I suppose. But what's clear is like a trigger for him. Yeah. And I said him on a trajectory toward trying to essentially prove his worth, by way of becoming smart in the scriptures. And reform people have that temptation. I'm just that's all I'm saying is I think it is a temptation we ought to just recognize it is we put it on the table and we say, Lord, take this, and transform my heart in a profound way, so that I am compassionate with my knowledge, and with my thirst for knowledge, I'm compassionate in it.

Tony Arsenal 37:54
Yeah, and then one more a little bit of biographical information before we move on to kind At the the meat of what Dr. beaky pulls forward and in Goodwin's preaching here is a doctor beaky makes the point. And I think it's interesting, because we don't always think in these terms, but good one himself was an independent minister. Right? So he was, he was a preacher or a minister who was, was outside of the Church of England. He actually was invited to come back in when things started to change. And the state church was being a little bit more tolerant of independent ministers. But he was actually a representative on the Westminster assembly, who was not a Presbyterian, and was actually vocal in opposing Presbyterian ism as a church polity. So I think we have to remember we have to think about the fact that as the Westminster assembly as a Presbyterian body and the Westminster Confession is a Presbyterian document, but the Westminster confession doesn't actually say anything about Presbyterian form of government, right that comes in, in a separate document that they publish that we certainly have to read the Westminster Confession in light of the other documents that were published alongside it. But it's not the case that only Presbyterians were involved in the the drafting of the Westminster Confession. So Goodwin was a significant voice. JOHN Owen was a significant voice on in this theological mill you and neither one of them really, strictly speaking were Presbyterians. So we should just remember that and I appreciate that Dr. beaky, as a Presbyterian is willing to sort of bring that forward in the tax and point that out that that Goodman was an influential Member of the Assembly, but he still was not in the same kind of church polity that we think of when we think about the Westminster assembly. I just thought that was an interesting feature to sort of point out remember,

Jesse Schwamb 39:57
it is worth noting, I think, because Dr. beaky is unbiased, like in his approach, I think in him giving deference to these great scholars and theologians, and then talking about how they preach why they preach. And so like I said, in terms of what he's kind of brings into this text, at least he notes for good one is his preaching on the compassion of Christ. And he uses by example, a rather famous sermon from him called the heart of Christ in heaven to sinners on Earth, which again, we should just remark one. It's a beautiful title. Yeah, it's pretty awesome title to like that would hardly fit in a bolton today, like all our titles need to be like short and pithy. I just love this heart of Christ in heaven to sinners on Earth. So even there, there's just wonderful juxtaposition, but he brings forward in this sermon, something that we should talk about, because it's a really interesting idea. So the sermon itself is centered on Hebrews 414 and 15. And what Goodwin sees in these what he actually says he challenges congregation by saying, in these verses contains both a problem for faith in Christ and a solution. The question that he basically presents is in his glorious ascension, has Christ left behind all memories of weakness and pain. And that's a really interesting point. I mean, he's a sickly, almost creating a problem so he can deliver a solution to us. Because I think on the on the face, most of us don't think about that. Right, thank Well, here's the high priest. He's good to us. But he's saying, Well, listen, Jesus in heaven, though he's like, physically resurrected. He's in a glorified state. What then can we say of him and his ability to really identify with us? I love it. This is where beaky goals goes, goals where he scores a goal with respect to good one.

Tony Arsenal 41:37
Yeah, and you know, this is this is one of those things that you know, I'm I'm kind of an aspiring preacher. I'm trying to understand like, how do I it like what you're saying earlier like that egg headedness, that's so characteristic of reformed thinkers and Puritans and really like people who are mindful of theological doctrine. It's so easy for us to slip into this like impractical. Egg headed theology. And Goodwin here is able, I haven't read the sermon itself, but I have no reason to think that Dr. beak he's not representing accurately, he's able to sort of marry together some really complex theological concepts with with exegetical preaching and then also with, like, really good pastoral application to his congregation in a way that I think is quite beautiful that I think we'd all be well, good to pay attention to. And so what he what he the question he asks basically is, as you said, is, does Christ still sympathize with our weakness? Right and and if you break down the word sympathize, you know, you have that prefix s y n or soon, which means together and then you have pathos which is suffer. So does Christ still suffer with us in our weakness and in our tribulation? And on one level and in one way, Goodwin answers the Well, no, absolutely not Christ is beyond suffering. Because if Christ is still suffering, then that means that when we reach our glorified state, we still will be capable of suffering, which is, is nonsense. But on another level, he talks about how Christ is still touched by our suffering. And he uses that in kind of the same way. We might say, like, Oh, I'm touched that you thought about you thought of me. It's not to say that, like he's touched or afflicted with our sufferings, but our suffering still impacts and still affects the sun in heaven. And that, in a real sense, drives him further into intercession with the Father on our behalf. And so because he became our high priest, because he became one of us, and has a sort of memory of suffering, a memory of his humiliation, he's able now in his excitation to bring that before and represent that to the Father and His intercession in a way that he otherwise could not have. So he does, he sets up this problem. For his congregation this theological quandary, to say, well, Christ is human, but he's glorified. So he he can't suffer. yet he's still touched by our affliction and our furmity, which is using biblical language to draw that in. So how do we resolve that? And his resolution is not some complex theological answer. It's to say, it's to point to the fact that what the scripture says, is that he is able to intercede on our behalf, he's able to understand our weakness and to make intercession for us, because of this memory or this history of having taken on our infirmities and our weakness, and being able now to bring that into the presence of the Father, and to resonate with us in a way that God could not have resonated with us before. Because Christ isn't resonating with us as God, right? He's not resonating with us according to divinity. He's resonating with us, according to his humanity. And I think there's something so beautiful about the way that Good when ties that together, it's just a marvelous masterpiece of theological preaching.

Jesse Schwamb 45:05
It really is. And we should note that why this is so good and so useful. There's something particular in here that I think many, many that's maybe unfair, some contemporary preachers would really not dare do and that is, what he does from the outset is he actually deconstructs of it. Yeah, forces, the hearers into an uncomfortable position to have to reconcile what he's saying with this question. He actually, he actually kind of deconstructs, or pulls down some of your theology so that in the end, he can rebuild it and make it stronger than it was before. Yeah, that is some really good preaching right there. And it's almost risky preaching, but at the end of it will get is this this idea that given puts forward that, that our infirmities, as he talks about with respect to Christ sympathy include both our troubles and our sins, like even our foolishness and simple choices, awakened Christ, compassion. He cannot go there. Unless he at first puts forward this question. Is it possible for Christ to still identify with us and like a real identification, like you said, Not like this trivial, just kind of like, you know, yes, I can understand or I think I could experience or kind of maybe be, you know, be agreed to have some sense of feeling for what you're going through. So he does end with this idea that we should not think of Jesus suffering in heaven, as he did on Earth, like the humiliation, all that suffering was complete on the cross in the tomb. But Jesus remains a man with human emotions, and this human body. And that's, I think, something that we need to remember is, we've talked about this before the sense that it's actually better to have the Holy Spirit who knows the mind of God, than to have Jesus Christ with you in the room in that sense. And we want Jesus Christ representing us in the actual throne room and heaven as the prototype as our first brother as the one who is the first fruits of resurrection. And so he's no longer subject to any kind of frailty mortal Quality, weeping, exhaustion, fear all that stuff is gone as it should be. And yeah, I was just thinking about this because this again, the season that we're in, automatically usually draws our minds toward Christology. There's so much amazing Christology in this that consider the condescension of God that isn't just temporary in the giving of Jesus Christ in the logos, which becomes flesh and tabernacles hangs out among us. But this condescension that is permanent in the sense that God was always identifying with us. Yeah, in a way that's real with our suffering with their humanity, even with their sinful choices that we make. That is an amazing condescension that is ours forever in Christ. I just can't get beyond that. Like it's full stop for me. I just cannot get beyond how amazing that is.

Tony Arsenal 47:46
Yeah, especially in this Advent, if you want to call it that, in this Advent season in this midwinter, no reason season. That, let's call it that. Let's just say Advent. You're right. Like we We don't hear as much christological preaching as you would anticipate or expect. And I think part of it probably is, honestly, like preachers are probably a little bit afraid of getting too deep in the weeds there too. They're a little bit nervous about shooting to theological. And that I think that's the strength of this. This book as a whole. is Dr. beaky has been able to really clearly show that theological preaching and preaching that affects the emotion, the paths of a person, and effective application that those three things are not mutually exclusive. So you're able to see in these Puritan preachers, especially the Puritan preachers, you're able to see that you can preach a doctrinally sound theologically high sermon, and still affect the hearts of your people. I think that you know, we would do better As a church if we were able to do that, because how many, how many Christians? If you were to ask the question that he asks, in the beginning of this sermon that sort of posed this dilemma of how can it be that the Christ who is in heaven is still touched by our sorrows? And infirmities? How can that be? I don't know that there are a lot of Christians in the Pew on average, that would be able to work their way through to a solution exists. So the fact that Goodwin is able to bring his congregation to those he's preaching to, through that solution, and then not only give them the theological acumen to be able to answer that question, but then to show how that applies to their life and how that gives them the assurance of faith. That is an amazing masterpiece of preaching that I think, I can't think of another instance of something like that, that I've ever really been exposed to.

Jesse Schwamb 49:53
And this is much more difficult to do than just taking a theme or even just executing a particular passage. This Rise challenging and right. Part of the responsibility lies on those who are sitting in the pews who call themselves among the local church and submit to the teaching of their pastors to desire this type of education that isn't just about terms or isn't just about five things you can do this week to make your life better, but are really hungry and thirsty. Yeah, for the full breath in scope of God's counsel, as it is expressed in his written revelation. And saying in the kind of practical approach that takes that full counsel and wants to live it out, it's over are saying to our pastors, would you help me to live in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ? Would you help me to be a better follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, in my office place with my spouse, with my children, then naturally, we will have to go in this type of direction, the one that good one leads us because he is very concerned with that it isn't just about knowing more and having greater even if greater appreciation for Christ. But what he's propelling us forward to do is to say, walk in this kind of surety, that the one who Hebrew speaks about is the one who is intimately acquainted even now with your suffering with your fullest issues and decisions, and so identifies with you that you may have forgiveness and righteousness and therefore be transformed to live a life that is holy and pleasing under the Lord.

Tony Arsenal 51:23
Yeah, yeah. So let's turn the corner and talk a little bit about Thomas Shepherd here. But before we do, I want to read something from the conclusion of this chapter that I think is important to kind of frame the conversation about Shepherd in and Dr. beaky closes here, and he says the Puritans did not merely teach a doctrinal system, but tried to help their hears to feel the terrifying darkness of sin and be drawn to the radiant beauty of Christ. Neither should we think that goodland only preached Christ and Shepherd only preach sin shepper preached about the glory of God and the redemption of Christ. free offer of the gospel to all people and faith in Christ and the benefits of union with Christ. And the reason that I want to frame it that way is because Dr. beaky is actually very, I think, very critical of Shepherd in some of his comments here that I'm, I'm not an expert on shepherd. I couldn't even remember the guy's first name at the beginning of the show here. But I think it's probably right on that, that there is this element in certain Puritan authors. And he's pulling this out in shepper. But there is this element in certain Puritan authors, to overemphasize our inability or to overemphasize our fallenness in a way that actually kind of bruises and sort of beats on the sheep in a way that may not be so healthy. We've talked a little bit about this in reference to Paul washer, right and I get in fights online once in a while because people people make a joke about Paul washer about how they listen to Paul washer sermons and they question their salvation. And I'm constantly saying like, that's not a great thing. Like that's not a great thing, the purpose of a preacher is yes to call believers to a higher degree of holiness. But if you're preaching is regularly causing people to question their salvation, who have no other good reason to question their salvation, that's not necessarily such a good thing. And so Dr. Becky points out here he actually issues a little bit of a warning to those who might read Shepards book. He says here, a few notes of caution are forced. Some of his books are notes someone took of his sermons and published without his reviews, so we should ask, one of the printed words actually reflects his spoken words, just a good general warning but then he says, second Shepards books can be overwhelming and their scrupulous demands upon the soul. Tender consciences may fall into unnecessary self condemnation by reading them. And then he goes on to point out a theological gap in shepherds preaching, he says, shepherds books contain a doctrine which most Puritans rejected the idea that before a person can be saved, he must submit contentedly to God's Judgment even if God should send them to hell. So the concept there is that if a person truly recognizes God's sovereignty, then they should recognize that God would be just to send them to hell, which is a common perspective among the Puritans. And I think, right. But Shepherd takes it a step further and says, not only should they recognize that they're deserving of hell, and that God would be just to send them to hell. But that if God had still decided to send them to hell, that they should be almost thankful for the fact that God has judge judge their sins, and is punishing them. And I can I can understand how Shepherd would get there. I think I've actually probably said similar kinds of things in the past, when I'm trying to explain to people that God is good and righteous and just and for us to stand there and question his judgment is like a supreme act of defiance. Instead, we should be looking at and saying, God is the good, just good, just judge of all, and he'll do what's right. But the Puritans thought and I'm just going to read what he says the Puritans in general taught that in order to trust in Christ alone Salvation, a person must recognize that God would be entirely just too damn them to hell for their sins. But they also thought it it's a contradiction, to expect anyone to be content to go to hell. And I think that where that comes out is that to be content to go to hell would be to be content with eternal separation from God. So to say I'm satisfied with that is actually to say, I don't actually care enough about God to be dissatisfied with separation from him, which I think that right, that's just a contradiction in terms. Like, that's not logical, but I can see how Shepherd gets there. So with that in mind, you know, what did you think about these different, you know, BBK loves his bullet points when he gets to sort of these back after these chapters. Right. He's so good at summarizing in such a succinct way what's going on with these different fingers thought,

Jesse Schwamb 55:47
yeah, you're right. There's some of this stuff that I agree that was maybe problematic with respect to how just Thomas Shepard was expressing this. I think the heart of the matter is absolutely on point. It's this idea that There's a type of preaching that drives men to despair of self. And so that way they can only look to Christ alone. And who hasn't been there at some point in time who hasn't heard testimonies of men and women who are brought to that point of despair. And it's in that actual moment that if there is a blessedness, in that gift, it is a gift of despair. And so it forces them to look to Christ alone. Right. And I think the what's interesting is just in the language, and this is what believes means that maybe leads me to believe that Shepherd is still on point is just that that idea of despair seems to be like working against this idea of being contented and be damned. Yeah. So I think that really what he means is that we need to have the kind of preaching that is unapologetic with respect to the fact that sinners deserve the flames. Yeah. So the part of the bullet points that you referred to is this idea that in some of shepherds most famous work, he basically enumerates these 10 ways in which like the heart in sleepy hearts, even though somebody's mind You may want to understand their misery, their soul does not greatly care to come out of it. He gives these 10 different ways and they're really deep. And again, these are like profound practical ways in which he's basically emphasizing, hey, listen, like center, listen up, like you don't want to come out of where you are, you need to actually be delivered into the kind of depth of despair. That is soul crushing, because without that, you're likely to continue to make these excuses and to continue to want to not just walk but run the path of damnation. Right. And so he's working very hard against that.

Tony Arsenal 57:36
Yeah, I mean, he really was in a lot of ways. He was kind of the Paul washer of his day, right? He's coming, he's coming to congregations and every congregation has a mixed body, right? So it's not as though any preacher comes before their congregation and doesn't recognize that there may be and likely are unconverted individuals there, but he's coming to his congregation and he's he's seeing you after my What's going on in England in these states, right? This is the Church of England, everybody is a part of the Church of England. Everybody is is a Christian, quote unquote. And so he's seeing people that claim the name of Christ. Yet they live in a way that seems to say otherwise. And so he he's trying, you know, this is not all that all that different than Jonathan Edwards, who would come along later, and would write treatises about how do we recognize someone who's genuinely converted, versus someone who's just experiencing sort of an outward affection or an outward an outward conversion? He's kind of anticipating what Edwards is right about with religious affections later on. And he does he has these he has these different points in these sermons to basically say, like, these are the things that sinners do to make excuses for not coming to Christ. And and what I appreciated about this chapter, what I appreciate about Shepherd as as bheegi presents him is he is he's willing to point out the fact that sinners and here's you know, and he has this This book, the sincere convert, and then he has been called the sound believer. And beaky kind of distills this down into the six parts. And the sixth part here is the greatest cause why so many die and perish in this estate, that is the state of sin and misery is from themselves. Right? So he's making this point that sinners have no reason to be condemned. Apart from what they do to themselves. God, God doesn't right, prevent anyone who wants to come from him come to him from coming to him. Instead, sinners make excuses for why they can't come to him. You know, you think of the parable of the wedding feast. Right? And then the, the person who kind of figures God and the parable of the wedding feast, he issued this invitation to all of his friends and his friends make these really stupid excuses. Like that's one of the things we miss in that parable, is that the reasons that the people give for not being able to come to the feast are bad excuses, right? I bought some oxen, and I have to go check them out, like, one day is not gonna make a difference, or I just got married, so I can't make it like there's these dumb excuses that people give. And the person giving the feast of the master the feast is rightfully infuriated by the fact that the people do this. And so Shepherd is kind of pointing out that every sinner makes these silly excuses for why they won't come to faith. Well, you know, it's just too high of a cost, right? I got to make sure that I can't run my business the way I want to, or the way that I need to if I come to faith, then most people don't make that consciously. But it's the same thing like when you ask a bunch of college students, some of them are radically honest when you ask them why what is it that keeps you from coming to the faith? And they'll say to you, I don't want to change my life. Right? I don't want to continue to sleep around and I know that if I come to Christian faith, I'm gonna have to stop that. Right Augustine Praise Lord make me chase but not yet because he wants to continue to live dwell in his sin. And Shepherd has this way of putting his finger right on that he kind of takes his thumb and he finds that wound that sin is made. And this is why he can be, I think can be a little bit risky for sensitive people to read and why beaky is putting this warning forward. He kind of takes his thumb and he finds that wound that sin has made and it kind of drives his thumb into it makes you feel it until it hurts. And for some people, that can be too much, and all the sudden instead of turning to Christ, it can drive them away from Christ, which I think as we've said, you know, Paul washer has nothing but the best intentions like I don't want to impugn the man's motives, or his horse or salvation or anything like that. But washer does the same kind of thing where he kind of he kind of drives the screws down on people, at least his most famous works, right? We get a very small sample of his overall preaching what we see on the internet, but then that that shocking youth message like he drives the screws down on people, and there are probably Christians in the audience you think Britney Spears is just a fun singer, who are like, Oh my gosh, I like Britney Spears. I guess I'm not a Christian anymore. And like that's not really justified. So I think that this is a great look at some representative preaching that that is important. Right? We have to preach the law. But I think that that Becky is right and kind of calling out that maybe this approach might have been a little imbalanced at times.

Jesse Schwamb 1:02:21
Well, the bottom line is, if you've felt that deep pain of saying you don't need to feel it again, right. And so obviously, he's just kind of blanket going after everybody. And it is tough. It is a little bit tough to read. It'll make you uncomfortable, but that's okay. In the sense that if you understand where his motive lies, I think I'm helping you in filtering what exactly he's saying, especially again, if if you've been regenerated, if you felt that deep pain, that twinge of sin and a desire to really repent in the truest sense to turn away from it, then I think you can be protected and knowing that what he's talking about is he's really trying his best to express the seriousness because he lived in a day and age where we needed to where there was a lack of serious conviction and behavior when it comes to following after Jesus Christ. Yeah. And so he's working against that. I think in closing my favorite anecdotes about Thomas Shepherd is that he was born on Guy Fawkes Day.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:16
Yeah, the Guy Fawkes Day. I am

Tony Arsenal 1:03:17
familiar with guy Fox stable. Why don't you give us the rundown?

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:20
So I mean, here's the thing. This is super embarrassing. everything I know about guy Fox day I learned from reading

Tony Arsenal 1:03:28
V for Vendetta,

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:30
know is that in vivo?

Tony Arsenal 1:03:32
The Movie The vendetta is about I mean, at least the outward about it is is about Guy Fawkes Day.

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:39
Get out. I learned everything I know about Guy Fawkes Day from reading Sherlock Holmes. So there you go. This guy Fox was a member of what's called the Gunpowder Plot, right? He was arrested while guarding explosives that Potter's had placed underneath the House of Lords. That was in 1605. So here's what I want to know like shout out, and I know they're out there. Shout out to our British brothers and sisters. I want to know like, Are we still celebrating Guy Fawkes Day like, what do we do on Guy Fawkes Day? I want to get in on that.

Tony Arsenal 1:04:06
Yeah, I don't know do we wear masks like in V for Vendetta? Is that what?

Jesse Schwamb 1:04:10
I've never seen that I've no idea what that's about. I

Tony Arsenal 1:04:12
never have either. My understanding is it's kind of like a future like dystopian take on the guy Fox story. So like, it's not exactly the same, but it's it's using a lot of the same imagery. Yeah, it's it's, it's interesting. Don't they still burn guy Fox in effigy?

Jesse Schwamb 1:04:29
Again, that's what I've learned from reading. You know everything about Sherlock Holmes, but I don't know anything about I don't know if they still do that. I'm guessing there's like fireworks, something like that. But like, yeah, like a national holiday still, like you get the day off. Like two people. Grilled sausages, eat beans and toast on that. What do you do on that day?

Tony Arsenal 1:04:50
I don't know. I don't know. We should figure it out. Let's do something here on Guy Fawkes Day. I mean, we have like a year to figure it out. It's like November just got nasty. Yeah, November. Fifth well that's the remember the remember remember remember the fifth of November like that? Yeah, from guy Fox. It's like a saying that they I don't know. I'm gonna stop. This is like when I side tried to talk about point guards in basketball.

Jesse Schwamb 1:05:12
This is like what we talked about but not trying to appropriate culture.

Tony Arsenal 1:05:15
Exactly. Our British listeners which we have a pretty sizable contingency. Our British listeners are freaking out right now. They're going to burn you and me in effigy

Jesse Schwamb 1:05:26
that Listen, you gotta educate us jump into the Facebook group. I'll be there some point. educate us on what's going on a Guy Fawkes Day.

Tony Arsenal 1:05:33
It's true. Let's let's do a Guy Fawkes Day celebration. Although we don't want to celebrate guy Fox, do we guy Fox was a bad guy, right?

Jesse Schwamb 1:05:42
Yeah, no, no, yeah, he was trying to blow up the House of Lords. So I assume we're just celebrating the thwarting Of course of his plot, and yes, represents that plot.

Tony Arsenal 1:05:52
It's just more reasons why we shouldn't think that it's okay to be friends with Papyrus because if you're not careful, there gonna blow you up. That's the moral of the story, isn't it?

Jesse Schwamb 1:06:05
That seems like the lesson. That's the lesson I was trying to get out of you. So I'm glad you're finally, I always

Tony Arsenal 1:06:10
assume that when I meet someone who's Catholic that they're going to try to blow me up. The NSA is all over our podcasts now.

Jesse Schwamb 1:06:21
I told you right before we started recording this, we had to pause briefly because there was this beeping up from a truck that was backing up in my parking lot here. And it was like a white unmarked van and then it backed up and it sat there for very long pretty

Tony Arsenal 1:06:35
clear apartment.

Jesse Schwamb 1:06:36
Yes, like a white unmarked ca style surveillance type. Then like I was looking for like the like, you know the beaded red light on my wall, because I was like, What is going on here?

Tony Arsenal 1:06:48
It's Papa Frankie. He's coming to get you Papa Frankie, the hippie Pope.

Jesse Schwamb 1:06:56
See, we always have good intentions to actually wrap up this podcast one out We're not even like a reasonable way Yeah, just it all I mean it just falls apart

Tony Arsenal 1:07:05
you know this is something we should talk about the Catholic Church is like heading for a major schism right now like really is heading for a schism and I actually predicted this when Benedict abdicated and and Francis took the PayPal seat that this was going to happen. And you know, this is this is hard because I honestly am not sure. On one level like I think it's good and right to celebrate when things don't go right for the Catholics in terms of the church in terms of their sort of like Anti Christ Church is in your heart. Yep. But also like, it really does kind of break my heart to see it happen. Because even though I don't think that the Roman Catholic Church is a faithful Church, I do think that the Roman Catholic churches are part of the visible church, even though they're kind of defective parts of the visible church. I don't kind of breaks my heart to see a church that whether right or wrong, you know, wrong, I think but bears the name of Christ sort of get ripped asunder. And there's a podcast I listened to was it called one p something one p five, three, I'll put a link in the show notes. But it's by it's not a not like a traditionalist, there's these different camps in the Roman Catholic Church, but it's by a a Roman Catholic guy who recognizes how terrible of a Pope Francis is. And you can actually kind of feel the inconsistency and sort of like the, the cognitive dissonance in in the fact that he's criticizing a pope, like you can feel that it makes him really uncomfortable when he has to point out all these really terrible stupid things that the pope is doing that are just contrary to Catholic doctrine is an interesting Listen, I'll put a link in the show note. But like, did you hear about the stuff at the Amazon senate? Have you heard about all this stuff? Yes, yeah. Oh, my goodness, like the Roman Catholics are losing their minds. Because in in the Amazon, a bunch of pre suggested like incorporating idol idol worship into the there. They're Eucharist masses in order to like, draw in natives. It's like the ultimate seeker sensitive model. And some some, I mean, bless his soul, like, please become a Protestant because you're already halfway there. Some priests came into this meeting and like took the idols and like smash them in front of the whole assembly and was like, This is not happening. Like, we're not gonna have idol worship in the middle of our of our Roman Catholic congregation. And then they of course, they've demonized this guy and made him seem like a radical but yeah, it's interesting. Catholics. I don't know, man, we should talk more about Catholics on this show.

Jesse Schwamb 1:09:36
We are 69 minutes into this podcast. I know. I just want to

Tony Arsenal 1:09:40
get going. I'm always

Jesse Schwamb 1:09:45
like, Listen, we could just keep going for like another four hours here. Make it epic. You know, what's that podcast about history? That's like really hardcore history. It's like nine hours. Yeah, it's like that. I mean, people listen to us for that long, right?

Tony Arsenal 1:09:58
Yeah, maybe I just I don't even know that I would listen to us for that long. Neither would I. Yeah, I would definitely turn us off.

Jesse Schwamb 1:10:05
Well, if people want to get in contact with us outside of just listening to our voices on the podcast, what are some ways that they could do that?

Tony Arsenal 1:10:12
Well, of course right now, the best way to have some direct interaction is to join our Facebook group, which you can find by going to reform brotherhood calm and clicking on join the Brotherhood. You can also call us and leave a voicemail, we do question and answer session once a month. Yet number is 603. Sorry, 607 444-276-7623 is the extension for New Hampshire. Well, wouldn't be my own one of my own numbers in Minnesota Extension. I mean, people can have my own number if they want but so 674442767 and then you can always email into info at reformed brotherhood com if you'd rather send an email or if you want to record an audio file if you're not in the United states and send it to us to be on question cast, you can do that as well.

Jesse Schwamb 1:11:05
Like for instance, if you live on an island and celebrate Guy Fawkes Day and want to give us a recording of your explanation of that holiday, it's true might be a suitable way to do it.

Tony Arsenal 1:11:14
I would love it if next year we saw some videos of British people burning guy Fox in effigy. Yes. Yeah, like wearing their reformed brotherhood t shirt. Well, man, I couldn't even get through that without laughing we shouldn't burn Michael service in effigy.

Jesse Schwamb 1:11:37
Oh my word. Yeah. So many see so many things that we can plan for 2020 like, let's get together and burn an effigy.

Tony Arsenal 1:11:45
Yes. Reform brotherhood. Honor everyone burn in effigy. All right, Jesse. Why don't you Why don't you land this plane take us home.

Jesse Schwamb 1:11:58
There's no landing, the landing didn't didn't drop out was gonna crash land this sucker. So, until next time,

Unknown Speaker 1:12:04
honor everyone. Love the Brotherhood.