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Tony and Jesse talk about the struggle of the Christian life as they continue to work through Micah.
Jesse Schwamb 0:09
Welcome to Episode 169 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
Tony Arsenal 0:17
And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast that's born for adversity.
Hey, brother.
Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey, brother.
Tony Arsenal 0:33
How are you tonight?
Jesse Schwamb 0:35
I'm doing pretty well. How are you? I love that you went with the born for adversity tagline today?
Tony Arsenal 0:40
Yeah, yeah, I mean pretty much if you just like search the Bible for passages that say brother or like popular quotes online for brother. You can get a sneak peek of all of our tag lines. We don't really face really try to make this podcast.
Jesse Schwamb 0:57
I thought maybe there was just like something deep and heavy. You're gonna disclose on this particular episode.
Tony Arsenal 1:03
Now, now keep it light we're not
Jesse Schwamb 1:07
even good at like teasing stuff.
Tony Arsenal 1:09
No, I know there's enough there's nothing there's nothing there. There's nothing going on. It's all good.
Jesse Schwamb 1:15
Well, then we we might as well just move right into affirmations. And we decided in our pre episode meeting which was about 35 seconds long that we were just gonna Yeah, and yeah, that was probably too long. And do the double affirmation the double stack affirmation double Yes.
Tony Arsenal 1:35
affirmation double sec, do you want to go first or should I go first? I think
Jesse Schwamb 1:39
you should go first.
Tony Arsenal 1:41
So I'm affirming that this is a little bit strange. It's a It's a strange thing that we stumbled upon. It's a TV show called The masked singer. And it's kind of hard to explain but basically Take like the format of like a, like a talent contest show, that get really really reminds me of America's Got Talent, it's got it a lot of similar kind of like visuals and production style. So you take that style with like four panelists, judges. And then you take celebrities and you put them in elaborate con, like elaborate costumes. And then the point is for the celebrities to continue to remain anonymous as they perform until the last person. So it's like, famous singers. It's not all singers, famous athletes, politicians, like a whole bunch of different people who come out and sing and do these performances in these costumes and you don't know who they are. And the whole point is for like the judges, instead of like picking the next America's next star. They have to like Guess who these people are? and Ashley and I saw a preview of it. We were We were watching some TV and we saw a preview of it on Hulu and we were like, like Just watch like the first, the first performance and then we'll like make fun of it a little bit and then we'll get on with the day. And we watched it for two hours yesterday, it was like strangely compelling entertaining. So check it out. I don't know what network it's on. We watched it on Hulu. It's really entertaining. It's just really strangely entertaining. It's called the masked singer.
Jesse Schwamb 3:20
I've never seen this, but I have heard about it. And what's interesting about the whole show is that they only either you reveal your identity because you win it or you reveal it because you're voted off right? So like you right? You're getting to see the judges can guess this whole time if they want to, but even I guess correctly, you don't get disclosed then. But then once you're eliminated, you take off the mask. They're like, Oh, man, I can't believe it was so and so. And now they're off the show.
Tony Arsenal 3:47
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's just really, I don't know, it's really fun to watch. For some reason. I can't really explain. I actually said to Ashley towards the end of our like two hour binge that we didn't mean to do. I felt a little bit like maybe we had taken some sort of drug like maybe there was something in the food. Because it was this weird surreal experience I couldn't quite explain.
Unknown Speaker 4:11
And you're affirming this?
Tony Arsenal 4:13
Yes, it was definitely entertaining. I mean, it was a fun show to watch. And, you know, like, it's, it's worldly people do on worldly things. So it's, it's fairly wholesome on the grand scheme of things like there's obviously no like nudity. There's no like, swearing, there's no violence, but like, it's secular songs, people dancing to secular music. So sometimes they're dancing a little like, suggestively but yeah, it's very interesting. It's a very it was a very strangely entertaining show.
Jesse Schwamb 4:43
Put that on our long list of T shirt slogans now, worldly people gonna be worldly.
Tony Arsenal 4:49
Yes, exactly. wretches gonna Rach What about you? What are you affirming?
Jesse Schwamb 4:55
So this is an affirmation inside an affirmation like a Delicious nuts covered in chocolate. So we've mentioned on this podcast a couple of times how we're just unashamed stationary nerds, we kind of both I think came to that conclusion on an episode. Actually, we didn't exactly know that about each other. Yes, there's just something about having a nice writing implements, and a nice piece of paper or a notebook or a journal in front of you, that just inspires you to want to write the next great American novel or to just take some notes or to write out your prayer. Yeah, just to do a little bit of journaling. And so this week, I received in the mail from a very gracious and generous listener, a brand new journal that actually they had recommended privately, and I checked it out online and now that I'm holding it in the flesh, I want to affirm this thing because it's beautiful. And I'll give the give you the exact make and model this thing because journals are like vehicles. They are they're very specific. And so it's important to find one you like and I'm loving this one. So this is a car Gibson sounds like a guitar but CR Gibson does charcoal gray leather journal notebook and it's seven and a half by 10 and a quarter. So it's like big, it's like really nice like it lays out flat, it gives you plenty of space to get your hand in there, I am left handed. So I've got to have that space on that smudging all over the place. And I want to affirm both the listener who sent it to the so kind. And just say generally, that's the CR Gipson gray leather notebook journal is really fantastic volume like it's beautiful, has that wonderful smell. It's sturdy. The paper is like soft, and it's like it's the Goldilocks paper not too firm but firm enough which is really nice and it will hold the ink which I use a fountain pen like exceptionally well. So this is the kind of thing that you just go out and get because it'll inspire you to get back into writing. And this year I want to do a little bit more writing with respect to note taking and journaling. So I was just blown away by this. It's a lovely gift, and even No more lovely journal. So I'm just affirming all day long to see our Gipson it's really, really nice.
Tony Arsenal 7:07
Yeah, so I know we said we're going to double affirmations. But I have to sneak a little bit of a denial in here. I have for you stealing my affirmation, because I also received one of these notebooks in the mail. And it's funny because, you know, you get it like, I don't know about you, but like, I order a fair amount of stuff on Amazon. So it's not terribly uncommon for me to get an Amazon package and not like no worry, be anticipating exactly what's in the package. And so I pick up the package out of the mail and I bring it in and I open it and it's this journal and I'm like, Hmm, I don't remember ordering a journal. So I'm looking at it I'm you know, I'm checking the address. It's like, yeah, it's got the right address. That's weird. I can't figure it out. And so I'm finally I actually am finally about to call amazon customer service to be like, Did someone hacked my account and send me this nice gift, because I couldn't find into my order list. And so I'm like digging in the envelope, trying to find like the order thing. And then I find this nice little note from a generous TRB listener, that they sent us this. So whoever you are out there, this was a great gift. I'm going to make heavy use of this. And you're right, like it's bigger. It's bigger than a moleskin. It's like a full size notebook. The paper is a little bit thicker, you can just feel it that it's a little bit of a heavier stock paper, but not like cardstock is not like super thick. Jesse's not going to be like cutting it up and making note cards out of it. And it's nicely space. I'm excited. I'm excited to give this thing a little test run.
Jesse Schwamb 8:46
You know, real I realized as I was listening to you, my excitement, enthusiasm is shared. And I'm also thinking, Man, this is just horrible podcasting. Here we are going on and on about describing a journal like is there anything less interesting to hear, then somebody's talking about paper quality. But it really is that nice. And I really didn't get excited about really nice stationery.
Tony Arsenal 9:11
It's great. I mean, you know, this is one of those things that I've learned is, we can talk about whatever we want to talk about, because this is our podcasts. And there's a fast forward button. If people don't like it, they can, they can fast forward to something else on the show.
Jesse Schwamb 9:29
Well, speaking of moving, maybe even fast, let me start us off with a second round of affirmations and the double stack that we're putting on today. So this affirmation may fall flat because it's possible it might not translate, but I'm going to affirm that everybody take on this kind of joke or this kind of sense of humor in their family. So in my in laws in my wife's family, we have this running joke, and it started because my wife's name is Jen, which is not inherently funny. But one of her cousins was trying to put Jen's phone number into her phone and for some reason accidentally spelled it as can. And so it's stuck. And then what happened is, Ken became this fictional character in their family who was kind of like a man for all seasons, like the Renaissance man, like the most, most interesting man in the world. And so now we all speak of Ken, as if he is an actual person. And we're always talking about him whenever we're getting together. He's in group chats, he has his own Facebook page, nobody knows who is actually that can. But he's always doing interesting things. And I bring this up because my wife's cousin had a 40th birthday party. And now it's become our custom. Whenever we go to her one of her family events, we always get two cards one is for the actual one is for they're both for the person who's celebrating. One is from us. The other one I always write out from Ken and he's become this great mystery of who is can and in a gathering, there'll be multiple references to And there will be like multiple cards from from Ken. It's always like, you know, like in this card for instance, I wrote Sorry, I couldn't attend the party. I've been in Australia fighting bushfires and rescuing baby koalas, that kind of stuff. So it's, it's just one of those things that's it's grown so big that he has his own personality. And I just think it's like the most random hilarious thing because he's become a legitimate person. And sometimes it gets a little confusing because when people hear about it from the outside, they think there's this actual person named Ken, who is among like, the most interesting people they've ever heard described. That's pretty awesome.
Tony Arsenal 11:35
I don't know how to follow that up. I would like to be even even knowing that Ken is not real. I would like to meet Ken, can you introduce me to Ken sometime?
Jesse Schwamb 11:47
Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Yeah, I sent you something.
Tony Arsenal 11:51
So here's the question when you write out the card from Ken because you have very distinctive handwriting. Do you disguise your handwriting to make it look like someone else's?
Jesse Schwamb 11:59
This is great. Great question. And I thought a great length about this because I wanted to be as authentic as possible. I wanted to cloak my own contributions that nobody would know it was for me so I actually write in cursive, which I never do. So it's my cursive is is pretty ugly. But it's no there'll be nothing to compare it to because I never write with exception signing my name, but my name is like so stylized and ridiculous that it's not actually a legitimate cursive.
Tony Arsenal 12:27
You know, now, most people who listen to the show probably do not know this. But your handwriting when you write out like a card actually looks like a font. Like it's so crisp and precise and consistent. And like, right down to the like, the height of the letters like it really looks like it was like was typed on there. That must have taken a lot of practice.
Jesse Schwamb 12:53
years is pretty neat as well, though.
Tony Arsenal 12:54
No, it's not. No, absolutely not. I look like a drunk five year old when I right A
Jesse Schwamb 13:01
really unique combination.
Tony Arsenal 13:04
Yeah, not not even just a five year old but a drunk five year old is one time I wrote something down on a piece of paper at the hospital and I handed it to a doctor. And they were like, man, even I think your handwriting is bad and it was a doctor. They have the worst handwriting except apparently for me because it's really bad.
Jesse Schwamb 13:24
Well, that's like a shout out to all the lefties out there of which I know you're one. I think for me, it was just a matter of trying to make it neat and not smudge. And so over time, I just that's what happened is it was an effort to really try to make it really crisp because most lefty handwriting is pretty bad. And I was trying to avoid that stereotype, I guess. But yeah, so I'm affirming like make your make up your own kin in your family somehow make up this family member this like a strange or distant family member. That's awesome. And then like send cards from that family member to other people and you know bring gifts from that person. It's just, it's just a really weird source of fun.
Tony Arsenal 14:05
That's crazy. Yeah, it's an awesome thing. So you stole my second affirmation, but I have rebounded and created another second affirmation, well, I'm just affirming, like doing stuff with your church family, again on the Lord's day. So a lot of churches, it's kind of a classical position in the reformed world, to have like a Sunday evening Lord's Day service or a Bible study or premiere some something else in the evening on the Lord's day to sort of like bookends the day and it helps to encourage God's people to be focusing on the Lord engaging in public and private worship throughout the whole day. But you know, we had church this morning is normal. We had our after our after church, Sunday school is normal. And then, you know, we gathered at about four o'clock and at our church, we gather pastors house to do this. But we just have this wonderful time of like, casually studying the scripture together and then spending time praying for and with each other and for our community. And then we just hung out for a little bit Nick cookies. And it was just this really beautiful sweet time of fellowship that, you know, like, it's nice to like, have a meal with someone after church but coming back together again towards the end of the day. Like it reminds me a lot of like, you know, when when you and Jen and your brother are home for Christmas, or for midwinter, no reason. Like there's that same rhythm to our day like we do something in the morning like we open presents, or we have breakfast or we do something. And then there's like a lot of times to kind of go our separate ways and do our own thing during the day. But then we always come back together in the evening for dinner and usually dessert and it had that same kind of rhythm and feel to it. So it just was this really sweet time. So I'm affirming spending time with the saints on the Lord's day not just on Sunday morning but also throughout the The day,
Jesse Schwamb 16:01
I was just having a conversation with somebody recently about this very thing. And it seems like I don't know if this is unique maybe to American culture, or maybe more of just developed world culture. But we have this tendency, I think, in Christian circles sometimes, to feel like for something to be particularly spiritual, it must be formally formalized and systematized. And this idea of like, we need to have, we need to really develop a small a strong small group ministry, we need to really set aside just focused time to gather people together to solve a particular problem, which is a need for intimacy and fellowship. And I was kind of remarketing and struck by the fact that really what we need to do is exactly just what you're saying. It's just living life together in a way where Christian fellowship and discipleship is the priority and out of that priority I think comes these things naturally when we desire to spend time with each other, but we should never legitimize or make small, sharing cookies with Christians. Yeah, that is a beautiful, wonderful thing. In fact, I think sometimes It's the informal nature of normal activity, which proves that all things can be redeemed because God is big enough to encapsulate all those things. And so we'll just gather in that kind of way. Even if the conversation doesn't become like explicitly Christian, so to speak, we're still doing a great act of worship and praise by being with one another, encouraging one another by eating cookies, enjoying good fellowship and conversation, and just loving on one another by listening and being together. So I just I like that idea. Because I'm realizing in my own life, I don't, I shouldn't need to have somebody call a meeting for me to gather together with brothers and sisters. And it shouldn't even have to be like, especially on the Lord's Day, although that is an important part of what's happening here. But this idea of living life together is in the small moments, gathering informally, almost serendipitously during the week, and doing it in a way that we don't need some kind of outside force like we do it without compulsion. We don't need to be cajoled. We don't need to have somebody again, schedule the time for us, but we make it a priority and Bill into our daily lives.
Tony Arsenal 18:02
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more. It just was it was just this nice sweet time of fellowship. And, you know, it really, I think it really showed like, it's it's interesting because our Bible study that we're doing this year is the theme is like seeing how God treats the church like a family, like how does God speak of the church in the scriptures as a family? What implications does that have for the way we interact with each other? And it just, it was so appropriate that like, after this conversation, kind of this meal that we engaged in, in terms of like the scripture being the meal that we just kind of like, had cookies afterwards? It was just really nice. And really sweet.
Unknown Speaker 18:44
Was it upon?
Tony Arsenal 18:45
No, I mean, the cookies were great. And your mom makes great cookies.
Jesse Schwamb 18:48
Yeah, she does. Yeah. So basically, what you're saying if we can summarize is if you give a Christian a cookie, he or she should want to share it with a brother or sister.
Tony Arsenal 18:56
Yeah, let's go with that. So, before we get into our topic, though, yeah, I do have to call out one amazing thing that happened on Facebook this week. So last week, if you recall, we requested, somebody put together a Puritan style tagline for our podcasts. And john Davis left this comment on our Facebook page. And this is this is the Puritan tagline. Quote, on the fraternal discourse regarding Reformed theology, particularly of the nature of proper hermeneutical and exegetical approaches to coming to a full understanding of the truth of the Holy Scriptures, the righteousness of God and the gospel according to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the means of salvation pertaining there and to and from where these means of salvation may be known. And quote, john Davis, you win the internet that that's amazing. It actually is like a really apt discussion of all of the different things that we're trying to accomplish with this show. So thank you brother. Like, I can't even verbalize how awesome and epic that is.
Jesse Schwamb 20:13
Yeah, I saw that. And I thought, wow, that's actually a perfect encapsulation in that the of the puritanical approach because yeah, it is a lot of words, but every one of them is important and meaningful. So it wasn't just kind of taking something and making it longer for the sake of making it more verbose. He actually hit it right on so I thought that was really clever. And that pretty much is a an apt description of what we're talking about today because we are back into Micah cast.
Tony Arsenal 20:44
Yes, it feels like it's been a really long time since we've done Micah cast, and I'm not sure why it is that feels that way. But I'm excited to get back into the tech.
Jesse Schwamb 20:52
Yeah, so my so we're in the end of chapter five. We're looking at verses 10 through 15. So how about I just start off by reading those scriptures.
Unknown Speaker 21:01
Go ahead.
Jesse Schwamb 21:02
I just want to get your get your approval first. I mean, yeah, I was, I was pretty sure you were gonna say no, don't read the Bible to me, but I want to make sure you're ready.
Tony Arsenal 21:10
Yeah, I mean, do we need like a motion for this? Because I can make a motion if you'd like
Unknown Speaker 21:17
some Robert's
Jesse Schwamb 21:17
Rules.
Tony Arsenal 21:19
Yeah, there's only two of us though. So we're gonna run into problems.
Jesse Schwamb 21:24
So passes. All right, here's my you may proceed. Thank Thank you, I appreciate the floor. You have five, verses 10 through 15. And in that day, declares the Lord I will cut off your horses from among you and will destroy your chariots. And I will cut off the cities of your land and throw down all your strongholds, and I will cut off sorceries from your land and you shall have no more tellers of fortunes. And I will cut off your carved images and your pillars from among you, and you shall bow down no more to the work of your hands. And I will root out your Ashura images from among you and destroy your cities and in anger in wrath, I will execute vengeance on the nation's that did not obey.
Tony Arsenal 22:07
Yeah, so this is this is one of those kind of downer passages but the beauty of this is it's actually sort of like a classic parallel with the beginning of chapter four. So that phrase in that day declares the Lord is a repetition of the same phrase in verse for chapter four, verse six. And what we see in chapter four is, at least in part of chapter four, is in that day, God will assemble his people, right, there's this positive, eschatological hope that will happen in that day. But now also in verse five, or in chapter five here we have in that day, and there's also this negative eschatological judgment that's going to come upon those who are far away from an obstinately opposed to the
Jesse Schwamb 22:56
right. Yeah, there's this sense in which as I think we must Moving through Micah where I get to these verses, and it's almost like it's go time. And, guys, this there's this repetition of this cleansing of cutting off that word is used consistently. And it's finally God saying, I'm going to cleanse. What's interesting is he cleansing his nation once removed the pagan nations. And it's almost as if God's salvation cannot come otherwise, then by stripping again, his nation, his people, of all the vain and false military confidence, the sorceries the idolatry is, God's objective is to remove every form of foe strength and every proxy of control. And that's the thing that just on the face as I took these verses, in some really struck me hard, because I think that is something that God that's always God's providential prerogative to do that thing. And it applies specifically in Israel to the cutting off of all these things, but it doesn't mean that applies to think any less to us. In terms of him often doing the same thing where he's going to cut off from us certain things that are source of foe strength, or some kind of analog for control. So I'm like ahead of ourselves a little bit with kind of speaking about where I see some of the application. But it's just amazing to me, the directness of God in the sense and that there is, there's a beauty of a loving father and a great mercy and kindness and his desire to cleanse his people and to know exactly how the cleansing ought to take place for their greatest good, and in a way that brings him the greatest glory.
Tony Arsenal 24:33
Yeah, and you know, one of the things that is a common theme in the scriptures is that the judgment of the wicked is deliverance for the righteous and deliverance of the righteous is judgment for the wicked. So even as early as you know, Genesis 315, which we often talk about as sort of the first giving of the gospel or the proto un jelly on that's actually embedded in the curse of The serpent so that the judgment of the wicked comes about in the blessing of the righteous. And we see the same thing here, right? So vite five, seven through nine is talking about the remnant of Jacob, that will be delivered. And then you see in verse 10, it starts with that word. And in that day, when, what day, the day in which the remnant will be delivered, so so that the deliverance of the remnant involves this cutting off of all of the things that the remnant depend on all of the things that the remnant trust instead of the Lord right, starts off with horses and chariots, which is a common feature a common thing that Israel's Ward against trusting in it cuts off the cities and strongholds so we're probably talking specifically about fortified cities. We're not just talking about your average town or city but but the actual military ones which we saw earlier and Micah, God is going to skin a strike out and against to these military strongholds, and then it moves in. This seems like a shift that is like a shift in topic, but it's really not the sorceries and the fortune tellers, these these ways that the people were trying to discern and learn about the future apart from what the Lord had ordained as the means for that, right? There was obviously direct prophecy, but there was also Catholic casting of lots of women and women, right? And then the carved images and the pillars, right. So these are these are the false gods, right? This is probably referring to the male and female fertility deities, things like bail, and Ashura, those those kinds of different Bane, pagan Canaanite fertility deities that will also be cut off. So this is not just, this is not just a vengeance, you know, a scene first 15 This isn't just the anger and vengeance that's executed on the nations that don't obey. But this expulsion and vengeance against the nations is the deliverance of the remnant. And I think right i think that this actually sort of teaches us a little bit, not in a direct fashion. But this is just how God works right? sanctification is painful sometimes, because it involves taking these corrupt and and distorted and sinful patterns of our lives and elements of our own personalities that God has to cut away like a surgeon. It involves some pain and some difficulty but it's this cutting off this judicial cutting off of those who are wicked, but that also results in the purification and the deliverance of God's people themselves.
Jesse Schwamb 27:40
Yeah, absolutely meets this is exactly as Jesus described it in the sense that Every valley will be filled and every high place will be leveled. And I'd seems I like the way you described it, because that was my impression as well, that there's a duality to the vengeance that God is executing here. That is both for purposes of punishment and refinement. It says If for his people, its confidence restored by confidence crushed. And I think again, like the providence of God is always to tear away from carnal confidences, which are often taken on consciously and subconsciously. And until God starts doing that exacting work of pulling them away. Sometimes we don't even realize that our health or our money or position status, our jobs, but these were things that were relied on to such a great degree that they were in competition with God that we did not realize it. And so that he does all this that the people of God enjoy, such as security, that they're not going to need any kind of other secondary confidences. That's an amazing love. When we think about God as the supreme being who is in himself all fullness, all beauty, all glory, all majesty, the best thing of course, that he can give his himself and so he wants to give himself in a way to us so that we rely on him completely and holy, and we can sense and have that kind of abundance and relationship with him which will be imperfect in Live. But the fact that he is protecting his people by doing this is, I think, still an extraordinary kindness, though it is no less painful, because it was the scene of Israel that they, as you said, furnish themselves extravagantly with horses and chariots and with diviners. And now God is promising that you're not gonna be able to regard those anymore. And I think that's an act of merciful kindness with salvific implications, because what he's basically saying is these things will not save you. So we need to deal with this. Now, you need to come to terms with the one who is the Redeemer and the rescuer, the one on whom you can rely without reservation, and the one who will never let you down the one that will not be crushed under circumstance or weight of worship or weight of glory. Only God can handle this kind of weight. So it's his prerogative to defeat his enemies and to destroy his competitors to demonstrate their effectiveness and their insufficiency. And I think he continues to do this work in his people, as you said. Part of that is I think, like you said, sanctification, primary to me is is just this. This cutting away, I think is sanctification but it's almost like in order for us to enter the door of sanctification, the opening up of that door is the cutting away of these carnal confidences, so that we may walk through because we realize we have nothing left. There's nothing else which can stand on. So it's a great mercy to be deprived of harm of those things which we have confusedly assumed confidence in competition with God, which we have made our strength. So here is I still see this is very similar to like the old Mosaic law because it says if God is coming in, just with the 10 commandments and saying, do not hurt yourself, do not harm yourself. I'm going to strip this stuff away. See, it may see where your security really lies.
Tony Arsenal 30:42
Yeah. And you know, as I read through this passage couple times, as I read some commentary, what struck me is, you know, when God when God does this sort of judicial cutting off in this sort of sanctifying sense that we're talking about, where he's he's judging ourselves. In he's judging, in a sense, he's judging us for our sin. But he's judging us in a salvific manner in a way that brings about our redemption and our salvation right now. There's, it's it strikes me that some people will look at that, and we'll recognize it in the midst of it and be able to say thank you to God, as he's doing it. But I think more often than not, we don't recognize the, the, you know, the fullness of what God is doing and the blessing in that pain until after the fact. And I think, you know, reading this is what kind of struck me is like, I want to be that kind of person that can in the midst of this sort of surgical operation to remove my sin, I can see that although it hurts, although it's painful, although God is judging my sin and judging me for my sin. Bad it is for my good and be able to give thanks even in the difficulties of that, you know, I, I won't get into details, because you don't have a lot of permission to share it. But I know of someone and you'll know who I'm speaking of who, who has a family member who died. It wasn't unexpectedly but it was a condition that came on and deteriorated very quickly. And, you know, as I reflected on that situation, you can either look at that, and you can say, This is terrible. This is awful. And I can't believe this happened and I'm so mad and frustrated angry about it, or you can't, as this person did, as I've talked to them about it, can look at it and say yes, this is painful, and this is frustrating, but I know that God is going to do good out of it right. I may not understand what that good is, I mean, understand on how that good comes to be or who that will influence or impact. But I'm confident and I trust God that He will do good in this even though it hurts and I'm more and more Want to learn to be someone who can speak that way who can cry out to God in gratitude even as I cry out to Him begging for relief from the affliction of under like that? That's one of the things I think is is we often think that that cry of affliction and that cry of gratitude are somehow contradictory. But I think that in God's economy, which never functions the way we expect it to, in terms of our human reasoning, that cry of affliction and that cry of gratitude, actually are in harmony with each other not not in disharmony with each other.
Jesse Schwamb 33:33
Yeah, that's solid. I didn't intend to go here with this passage. But you saying that in directing us I think it does fit perfectly with Mike is saying here. It's this idea that there is like a sweetness. It is as bittersweet as the idea of nostalgia that there's something beautiful about at the same time, very painful, and I'm with you. I am a guy that has all lag when it comes to this stuff. It's not even that sometimes I can't acknowledge and worship God through the pain, it's more that I have trouble even seeing how that the pain is being used for this purpose of extracting, or like you said, This judicial cutting, I'm not even seeing like I'm blind to that until sometimes much later on. But I want to say that I think we ought to deny the kind of Christianity that says, we need to sing happy music and dance at the tomb of Lazarus. There is a time for mourning and grief, and pain and recognizing that we are people that feel deeply as God created us to. And yet at the same time, we get to see God not just as the creator who brings all things into existence and upholds them by the word of his power. But he's also the one who rescues who can take desolate, who can take what is dismayed and turn it into rejoicing that shows another side of his beauty, that of course we all together absent and we would be blind to if we didn't have this kind of pain. And so the reason why I think God allows These kind of things to creep into our lives and then to cut them out is so so as to demonstrate the beautiful way that he is a bomb and a healer and a redeemer. And you saying all of that reminded me of a song, which I've recommended before. This is from a band called my epic. And this is a beautiful song, I encourage everybody to look it up. It's a very haunting melody. But it's called blacklight. And I appreciate this song because I've been drawn to it at times when I've been in my own type of pain, and had the pressure to say, well, we just need to power through it. It'll all get better in a second. And the song is basically saying, don't do that, to rest into lean into the suffering as Jesus Christ himself even did and to recognize that God is using this Yes, but it is okay to mourn and to lament because his people did that regularly. So, just a couple of lyrics from the second verse, which I think will allow everybody to get a sense for the song. It says, sing out the dissonance. It's awful, but it's time for the truth. Don't tell the half of it. You only end up twice confused, come on, this ain't a blessing yet. Come on, it isn't beautiful to say it is. And I love that because it's implying that it will be a blessing. But it doesn't feel like that yet. And it can still be painful even as God is doing it. And there have been times in my life, to be totally candid with you and everybody else where I've sensed in prayers of where you're just groaning godly, either on behalf of somebody else or yourself, who's experiencing this kind of pain and God is doing something. Maybe if it God has led you into the desert, where seems he's removed the joy of his presence from you, so as to draw you back onto himself. Where I've sensed honestly, that I'm in a strange this sounds that I'm in the lap of Jesus, and he's comforting me. And all he's saying to me is, I know it's going to be okay. Even while he's the one providing the discipline. Does that make sense? Like, he he's the one that needs to do this, but he's still saying to me, I know. But this is for your good, it will be. Okay.
Tony Arsenal 36:59
Yeah. And you know, it was It strikes me as I think through this, you know, I was about to say we should think of it more like surgery than like discipline. But in point of fact, like that discipline analogy and the surgery analogy are not actually different analogies, right? discipline is, in, in many senses, and I use this word a little cautiously. But discipline is the infliction of some sort of violent mean, to bring about a corrective action. Right, right. Not necessarily visit physically violent, although I'm not opposed. I'm not a parent. But if I was, I'm not opposed to spanking, right. The Bible talks about the rod of discipline. And we have every reason to think that in that context, they're talking about an actual rod. But that's violent in the sense that you're imposing your will and you're, you're enforcing something because of your power and your ability and your authority to do so for corrective loving purposes and surgery. is also the imposition of violence in order to bring about a corrective action. So, in a sense, surgery and discipline are not no not at odds with each other. They're kind of the same analogy. And you know, as I've just think about this more like, we really need to be a people that that welcome and love and appreciate the discipline of the Lord. And sometimes that means, like being okay with and being thankful for God's hard provenances. And that that's really hard to do. Like, that's a really difficult, I don't want to call it a skill, but I'm not really sure what else to call it. That's a difficult skill to cultivate. Because it really takes this sort of posture of humility, and this really radical trust in who God is that even though it seems like he may be doing the evil, I know that God is not evil, and I know that he does not do evil. And I know from his word, you know, in a lot of ways, it's trusting, trusting the promises of God given to us in The Scriptures more than my subjective experience of what I think God may be doing, really is elevating the scriptures and the truth contained there in above my own understanding based on my experiences. And to me, that seems like the quintessential reformed thing to do, because it seems like that's really the hallmark of Reformed theology is that although, you know, as we're talking about in reform preaching cast, like, there is an experiential elements to reformed piety, right, we want to experience God. But there are times where we have to take our experience, and for a time, set it aside or sub submitted to the written objective Word of God in a way that really does sometimes cause us to deny our own experiences or understanding of our experiences in favor of a more stable, objective truth presented in the scriptures.
Jesse Schwamb 39:59
It's for sure condition. of the heart that's learned, I think you're absolutely wrong about that. And it's one of those things where we get the test before we receive the lesson, we read the scriptures, and we give some sense of intellectual assent to the goodness of God as we understand it on the page. And then we see him of course doing things life is people we say, of course, yes, we can see the story. I see the grand arc in the narrative, and God is doing this good thing. And then it comes into our lives. And like you said, Isn't it ironic almost, that we have to tell ourselves and I do this all the time, say, God is good, he can only do what is good. And we have to say that almost as a to remind ourselves, this pain is so awful, that seems incompatible with the God that I know. And yeah, we know from reading that this God is good and that he uses us in such a way but of course, when it's our nerves, when it's our feeling when it's our loss. That's a totally different thing. And I think we use the surgical metaphor so many times here, and I just, I'm with you, I keep coming back to it because what I realized after this past year is if you just Just take yourself out of the modern context and have somebody describe surgery to you. It sounds absolutely insane, right? I mean surgery,
Tony Arsenal 41:06
yeah, it really does an insane
Jesse Schwamb 41:07
thing because it's somebody inflicting purposefully a violent wound on your body, so as to go in and repair something and then to sew up the wound they've inflicted, and so that you're better off than before. I mentioned before, this past year, my wife had to undergo, you know, several very serious abdominal surgeries, and especially toward the end when she was getting to the end of that process. And you know, the surgeon would describe what he's going to do. Not only is it I would think this sounds crazy, like this just sounds insane. Like in any other circumstance, like this is where like a dude in the back of a van, I'd be like, This is crazy. It only makes a modicum of sense, because I'm like sitting in a sterile doctor's office. And this person has a jacket on and a stethoscope. And I see the diplomas on the wall. And supposedly he's well trusted and there was a secretary who scheduled the appointment. That all brings some air legitimacy to the process. But when the doctors like, this is what we're going to do and you know, you've been involved. You've seen you've seen surgeries. Like, it's a violent process like now they're cutting you open, but they're just, you know, I'm being somewhat hyperbolic. But in this case, we're just throwing organs around moving things to their hands, like you're doing things you want to be like, Can you do that? Should you do that. And in the end, they're saying this is going to be the most good for you, it's going to fix and resolve something, it's essentially going to redeem a part of your body that is not functioning properly. And trust me, when it's all said and done, you will be thankful that you underwent this process. Even if the recovery is super long and painful, you will be thankful that you had it done. That is crazy. And so I think that we need we need to have the same kind of faith in God but that's so much easier said than done. And one other thing that struck me with what you're saying, and this is somewhat straw man, but but go with me here for a second is I think you're right, in that there is a violence with respect to when God decides to discipline us when God decides To put us under anesthesia, so to speak, and put the knife to a spiritually, he is imposing his will, over hours. And there is a violence in that in the sense that he's killing our will by his own and under his own volition, right? And it strikes me that that's very much against in contradiction against an iminium mindset, which would say that God can basically only do that which we allow him to do. Right. And I think in many cases in the Christos, in this are many perspectives and stop, of course, just when we speak about the order salutis. But what about everything thereafter, when God does stuff in our lives that we don't want, which is to say basically, we never know what it is to follow God, if we always got we want it. So he's always going to do this stuff. There is a killing of our will, that we don't get a choice in, he's gonna overwhelm it and overthrow it, as Paul says, to such a degree that we might even despair of our lives themselves. That doesn't seem to me like the kind of thing where if you give me the choice in other words, I Never going to agree volitionally to that, or would take like a major act of God anyway, in regeneration to get me to agree to that upfront, do you? I'm saying,
Tony Arsenal 44:09
Yeah, Yeah, I do. And you know, I was actually just thinking this, like, the Westminster shorter catechism. I don't remember the question which question it is, but it talks about the three fold offices of Christ, right, that Christ executes the office of a prophet of priests and the king. And then it goes through each of those offices to explain how Christ executes that office. And I think the the answer to the question, how does Christ execute the office of a king is really telling in a sense that it really exemplifies what we think Christ is doing in our salvation. And the answer is that the first part of it is that he subdues us to himself, right, right. So it's using this language of overcoming us he's subduing us to himself, and then it's he then he then he rules and defends us. Right so so he overcomes our will he seduces himself. Then he rules us, He reigns over us, he executes HIS WILL over us. And then the last part is he conquers and defeats ours and his enemies like so. So all along the process, it's God imposing His will. And, and this is what I think is is really interesting to kind of bring it back full circle about this passage is there's I can't get past this sort of dance that's going on in Micah here that the blessing of God on his people is the expulsion of the enemies, right? So just going rolling back a little bit to verse eight. It says, and the remnant of Jacob shall be among the nations in the midst of many peoples. Right, and then it says in verse nine, your hand shall be lifted up over your adversaries, and all your enemies shall be cut off, and then the next several verses that language of Cut off is applied to all of these things that stand in the way of fully trusting the Lord. Right? So yes, there's these pagan peoples, that the nation of Jacob or the remnant of Jacob are among. Right? And those are the adversaries who will be cut off. But then it extends that logic of what will happen to the adversaries to the things in the midst of the people themselves. That needs to be cut off away from the people. Yeah, so it's this. It's this element. It's like cutting out a cancer right? To go back to the surgeon. We're just all over every kind of metaphor we have. But but that cancer is among you, it's in you. It's part of you. Right? And it needs to be cut off away from you. It needs to be cut out of your body. And that requires violent means like there's no, there's no way to get rid of cancer. That is pleasant, right. There's no sugar pill you can take you can't just meditate the cancer away. You have to cut it out. You Have to poison it, you have to overcome it by violent means in order to get rid of it. And that is going to take a toll on your body. Like people don't come out of cancer treatments, feeling great about their bodies and feeling good and healthy in their bodies. They come out feeling like they've been in a war, because they've been in a war. And I think sometimes we treat our spiritual life like we should be coming out of this war against sin, hunky dory, and everything's fine. And we're fine and everything's great and we love everything. But in reality, like the war against sin is hard. It's hard and it has, there's casualties in our spiritual life, that sometimes when God cuts out the sin, it he takes with it some of our happiness like that's that's reality, like that's the dark night of the soul is that there is this sense that a loss is a loss and it takes us time to get over that loss, even though that loss is ultimately a good thing. It's Has this sense of mourning and grief? That isn't entirely inappropriate, right? When someone's recovering from surgery, a lot of times they if you ask them how they feel, they're going to say, I feel terrible. I feel really bad, I really hurt, I feel sick, I'm nauseous, like there should be a sort of spiritual sense of that as well. We're not going to go from being burdened with sin, to being unburden from sin without some sort of transitional state that is not entirely pleasant. It just isn't going to happen.
Jesse Schwamb 48:32
Right? I totally agree with that. I mean, there's so many medical metaphors for that because I have a friend to just recently underwent double hip replacement surgery, which is that's a crazy process and of itself, but that's been his that was his immediate response is like he must regretted should I have done this very thing. And of course, as the healing takes place, as God does the healing through time, there's a change of perspective on that. But in that moment, when you come out of it, and you have to stand up for the first time you I don't think it would be possible to think anything but I've made a horrible mistake, because this pain is so much worse than the pain I was experiencing before. I've replaced it with something that's more horrific. And yet I think like you said, God does this replacement. And what struck me what you're saying is that the amazing thing about God is to stay in the surgeon metaphor. We need somebody who is the expert who has authority, who is sovereign who has the power to affect that kind of change. And again, we're seeing God's glory when he does that. And so I think what's interesting about what Micah emphasizes here is that the enemy is exoticness and endogenous he's both Yeah, outside and it's easy for us to see that like look at the pagan peoples see what they're doing, see how they are law haters, how they stand against God. And Micah says, No, no, that is true. But it's also within you. The enemy is within you as well, the same behaviors. The one you want to point to the enemy that is right in front of your face is the one that's also deep within and God will protect them both one, he sets aside for complete destruction, the other because you are His chosen people, he burns out so that you may be pure and holy. And so I've made up this term, and it's probably not a great term but here's what I'm calling it. In this passage, I'm calling this providential symmetry of divine action, you like that? Wow, providential symmetry, divine action. So here's my thesis on what that means is this idea of God's vengeance, those who stand against the gospel of Christ and continue in league with their idols, they're going to fall under the wrath of God to be consumed by it. God will give his son either the hearts of people in mercy, or the next in judgment, he's going to make us either his friends or his foes so God's vengeance takes place when he secures His sovereignty by delivering his people at the same time punishes the guilty oppressors. pressors But to your point, it is the same action is the same act it is conquering enemies, but you notice it in one it leads to other damnation just direction and then the other, it leads to purification. But there's a symmetry of providential action in that respect, right? That's I'm calling this providential symmetry of divine action.
Tony Arsenal 51:10
Yeah, you know, it's funny, just to be totally stupid and nerdy. So there's, there's this game I play, I haven't played in a while. But there's this game I play called rimworld. And it's like this weird simulation where like, you have these three people, they crash land on a planet, you have to, like rebuild a colony. But one of the things that happens, the primary way you expand your colony, is by capturing people who have attacked you. And you either have the choice, you take them prisoner, you kind of nurse them back to health, and you have the choice to either execute them or to take a much longer time and convince them to join your colony interested in. But it's the same basic action in both both Yes, exactly. Like you it's the same person doing it and it it really is. It's It's interesting. It just shows how how much you and I think alike on these things is I was going to go to the exact same place is that in the text here, like, as I've been talking about sort of Yahweh executing violent means on his people and also his enemies. There's been like this part of me that's like, Oh, do I really want to use that language? Like, like, I feel, I feel squishy about that. But like, you can't deny it in the text here. Not only is he is he doing the same thing. It's the exact same words, right? Verse nine, the enemies will be cut off a verse 10 your horses will be cut off your chariots, your cities, all of these things are going to be cut off from you. None of these things. Well, horses, chariots, city struggles, those are not intrinsically evil, unless they're being trusted in instead of reality, which is what was happening among the people here. So what we have is, either God is cutting off the enemies or he's cutting off the sin within which is just a different kind of enemy of our people. Right? Right, so so I have just as you said, like I have, we have the the church has external enemies. Right, there are external oppressors. You know, my mind goes to what's going on in China with the government wanting to register Christian actions. It's it goes to the Middle East where there's persecution of Christians have violent means. And then there's internal enemies, right? There's, there's the sin that still remains inside of us. And it's no, it's no coincidence that the Westminster standards use the language of war, in reference to sanctification, that, that the corrupt part of us and the part that has already been sanctified, there is a constant war going on between those two parts of us. And ultimately, war is messy, and it's painful and it's frustrating. But at the end of the day, in in the Christians life, we know that victory is assured. Right? And so this is where this is where I think the text goes here and we're going to get into it as we get into The next, the next couple chapters here, that the scripture presents our perspective as sort of warriors in the battle as a victorious, joyful warrior who understands that the rest of the battle is going to be painful and difficult. But because the outcome is secured, we can still rejoice as though we were already at the outcome, right? I can rejoice in the hope of the resurrection, despite the fact that my death is still out in front of me that I'm going to die someday. But I can still rejoice as a person who lives resurrection life, because I know that's going to happen because I can trust is going to happen because God's promise that's gonna,
Jesse Schwamb 54:43
right. That's the great distinctive of Christianity, isn't it? The essentially, it's the fact that our eternal destiny or judgment after death has been clicked, dragged and dropped into the present, so to speak exactly by justification through Christ and sanctification, positionally, and there. After such that we now live with a sense of glory already achieved because of what Christ has done regardless of the current circumstance. And the battle comes into as you said, being transformed by the renewing of our minds so that we might remember that that's exactly the truth now, you have been while pain
Tony Arsenal 55:18
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself. So Jesse
Unknown Speaker 55:23
Yes. How are you? How do you feel like this?
Tony Arsenal 55:27
It's kind of a heavy episode.
Jesse Schwamb 55:29
Yeah, it's it is but you know what, I'm glad that we have these conversations and here's another thing one of the I think happy byproducts of us like going through micro cuz like I understand like, some people might be thinking like, just you know, get to it guys already like this. Maybe this is not the most interesting way to form a podcast series where you just go through the Scriptures five verses at a time and talk about it. But but here's my pushback on that. I had no idea exactly what we be talking about tonight. When we Yeah, with respect to these verses. I know we looked at them We always prepare by trying to set our hearts on what these mean and how we understand the word of God. And at the same time when we go through like this descriptor sets the agenda for us, which I love, and I'm always surprised at really the breadth of our conversation and the scope, it went in lots of different places. But it was all uniquely tied together in this central theme of what Mike is talking about. Yeah. So it's heavy. But I hope that somebody out there will be encouraged by this who's going through something now that's deep or if they're in a desert, or if they're just experiencing downright a large amount of pain. And so I want to say like, God is a God of hope. And there is always strength for today and hope for tomorrow. When we seek after him and we rely on him, he will always come through and so because we know like you said, the beginning from the end with respect that Godwin's that our salvation is secured, and that he's doing this for our good. I really hope that'll be some small amount of comfort for somebody who's experiencing something Equally deep and hard right now. So it's hard, but it's good. I'm glad we can talk like this. And we're not afraid from getting into some stuff. That's not necessarily like, I mean, you might not get stoked and want to run through a wall after all this. But it might help us maybe to stand a little bit firmer in the place that we are right now. And tickling a little bit more closely to the Lord Jesus Christ who himself leaned into suffering greatly, and is well acquainted with the kind of grief that we experience in this life.
Tony Arsenal 57:32
Yeah, yeah. You know, I really dig the like, the vibe you've got going on, but I just had this amazing idea for a reformed brotherhood t shirt. And it's crazy did I did it's your face on the Kool Aid man running through a wall.
Jesse Schwamb 57:53
Oh, yeah.
Tony Arsenal 57:54
With the caption that says reformed brotherhood. so stoked you just want to run wall. I mean, so if there's I need some, like some good artists out there who can make that happen for me.
Jesse Schwamb 58:07
I know I come back to that a lot. But that is like for me, the only word picture I can conceive of that really encapsulates, often how I feel after our conversations. This is like, yeah, iron sharpening iron. This is like the fellowship you were talking about. This is like the people of God, getting pumped up in the scriptures and being with one another in a way that I cannot replicate on my own. And that's the way it's supposed to be right? Yeah,
Tony Arsenal 58:34
yeah. So we're coming down to the end of this Micah series pretty soon. We've got a couple more chapters, probably four more episodes or so maybe five. We're going to take a little pit break, pit break, pit stop. When we get to the famous verse, we get to make a six eight and do something a little bit different. But you know, we would love to hear some feedback from the Brotherhood here about Has this been helpful? What have you liked? What should we do next? You know, we were always looking for ideas. And we're getting to the point where we're going to start planning, kind of in big picture terms. I know we joke about like not planning, but we, we try to have some sort of outline or roadmap of what we're going to talk about over the next couple months. And let us know like we're doing this podcast, I will be totally transparent like I do this podcast, predominantly because it's edifying for me, like, I learned things about the scripture when I'm talking and when I'm processing this stuff that I've never, never really come to before. So it's it's extremely edifying for me, but we also do this because we want to be edifying to the broader Christian community at large. So join our Facebook group. share with us what you've learned through this micro series, what we think we've gotten wrong, what you think we could do differently. Let us know if you want us to do another book of the Bible or if you want us to do something else do you want us to get back to kind of like Whatever we think of episodes every week where we're not doing a series, let us know what's worked, what hasn't we really want to do a show that is edifying to the community. And you know what this Facebook group that we've got is starting to be a pretty cool, nice little place that I really enjoy being in, you know, we make this joke about the Puritan tagline. But there's a whole thread in the Facebook group now that's like Puritan movies. Not peer to movies, but common movies, popular movies with Puritan titles, and I gotta be honest, some of them are so good that I can't even figure out what movie their talk. Yeah, they're, they're hilarious. They're pretty sweet. So
Unknown Speaker 1:00:39
you should join Can
Jesse Schwamb 1:00:40
you share yours? You should share yours. You wrote one.
Tony Arsenal 1:00:42
I'll have to look it up. They figured out what I was. what I was doing.
Jesse Schwamb 1:00:47
I couldn't remember what yours was. Do I have I see somebody did I think
Tony Arsenal 1:00:52
it's possible that you didn't I have to find the thread here.
Jesse Schwamb 1:00:56
Because my I feel like you're moving would be something I have it almost in front of me here I I feel like your movie be something in like the Marvel Universe so I might not be the bet I have it right front of me. Let me read it. Yeah, go ahead. Okay, so this is your description. The challenge was give your favorite movie appearance and title and this is what you wrote the value of friendship community and unity exemplified by the challenges of assembling a singing group in the absence of instruments and the resolution there in which, as I say, that's a great description. So obviously, I can take from this. It's something about singing and it's obviously acapella. But yeah, I'm actually shocked that this would be this is like a favorite movie of yours.
Tony Arsenal 1:01:42
Yeah, this is I won't call it a guilty pleasure because I am totally unashamed of this. I love and Matt butts shares this love with me. I love the Pitch Perfect.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:55
I absolutely love those.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:56
Where did this come from?
Tony Arsenal 1:01:59
Every Buddy has those movies where when you're flipping through channels and they come on, you just stop and watch the movie no matter what else you have to do
Jesse Schwamb 1:02:08
this is that movie and
Tony Arsenal 1:02:09
this is what the first one. The second one was okay, the third one was pretty awful. The first movie you know, it was just there was something so wholesome is not there. Definitely not the right word. There was something so like, organic about it booth like it just, it just scratched an itch that I didn't know I had. Like I said, it really is a movie. Just like in the title like the the movie isn't, isn't just about the singing group. It's about learning to live in a community and like, the way that the movie like kind of the symbol that the movie uses to show how this community has to form and work together and overcome their differences or is this like, is this acapella singing They can't get it together at first and then they have to figure it out as they go. So I just really like
Jesse Schwamb 1:03:05
that is so great. I really was shocked when I read your description because I was for sure thinking this is going to be some kind of cinematic epic. That's of the hero. Yeah, variety. But I was totally thrown by this. I know it. I couldn't even guess I wanted to write something crazy, but I was like, I don't even know what this is I I'm so surprised that sings involved so that is amazing.
Tony Arsenal 1:03:28
Yeah, so less lanfear, who I didn't even know was in our Facebook group. So cheers to last. He wrote the undoing of the cataclysmic snap through the mighty works of the man of iron and his avenging allies, which is that that's the quintessential Marvel Puritan title. So that's pretty cool.
Jesse Schwamb 1:03:46
Yeah, I have no idea what cataclysmic snap means.
Tony Arsenal 1:03:50
You saw you saw Infinity Ward in
Jesse Schwamb 1:03:52
shallow it's that snap the whole Yeah. Well, it's
Tony Arsenal 1:03:56
it's Yeah, it's it's an end game. It's the undoing of it by the man of iron.
Jesse Schwamb 1:04:02
I got your man. Yeah, I got you. Okay, yeah. So this is reason enough if you're not in the Facebook group to join, so you can see this thread there. It's several deep, and people have written all kinds of amazing titles that are converting their titles of their favorite movies into some kind of puritanical form. It is hilarious. Everybody's looking at it.
Tony Arsenal 1:04:23
Yeah. So join up. You know, like I said, we're not trying to be the new pub. We're not trying to replace any other Facebook group. But I do think that this community that has built up around this podcast and what we're trying to accomplish and sort of the the type of community we're trying to foster, it really is starting to develop in this Facebook group. So I'm very excited to see that so join up. If you haven't, jump in, join the conversation. It's probably the only reformed Facebook group that I know of that still is open on Sundays. But we want that to be a place where we can discuss spiritual things. So join up and join the Brotherhood that way we're really good excited about it.
Jesse Schwamb 1:05:01
I love it. Well, I think that pretty much does it for this episode, Tony. Again, it was fantastic. I love talking about the scriptures with you. So until next time, honor everyone.
Tony Arsenal 1:05:10
Love the brother