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Tony and Jesse talk about the allure of false teaching, and how it happens one step at a time.

Jesse Schwamb 0:02
Welcome to Episode 157 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony and we are proud members of the Society of Reformed Podcasters.

Hey, brother,

Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey brother, man, what's going on?

Tony Arsenal 0:34
Not much. just chillin doing some podcasting. You know how it is?

Jesse Schwamb 0:41
Actually I do. I'm waiting for the time that we ask. And one of us discloses like some kind of major earth shattering change in our lives that we didn't speak about before we started podcasting. like as if we were just going to let that roll out so people could hear in real time, because I want to ask you what's up, I generally into There'll be a kind of a Hey, not much. It's Yeah.

Tony Arsenal 1:03
You mean like if I said like, Hey, I didn't get that job I applied for the other day. Yes. Yeah, I didn't get that job I applied for the other day.

Jesse Schwamb 1:11
Oh, I'm sorry about that. It's

Tony Arsenal 1:12
okay. It's funny because, you know, after I, I heard from them that I didn't get it. I actually wasn't even that disappointed. So it was kind of like, maybe I didn't really even want and all that much.

Jesse Schwamb 1:23
Okay, so that's good. Yeah. So so that's news. It just happened in real time.

Tony Arsenal 1:28
Yeah. I mean, that it stand corrected. It's like the opposite of life changing because it's like, life's like staying the same thing.

Jesse Schwamb 1:36
Yeah, but that that's like some actual news. So it

Tony Arsenal 1:38
is. It is

Jesse Schwamb 1:39
I wish I could share something equally, like interesting, but I've got nothing. It's we should probably just move along into affirmations.

Tony Arsenal 1:48
We should we're not going to do denials today, mostly because I couldn't come up with anything.

Jesse Schwamb 1:53
And what that just means that you're super optimistic, upbeat, grateful. Yeah, person.

Tony Arsenal 1:58
Yeah, I guess so. All right. Go Think about it. Let's go with that. Why don't you start for me?

Jesse Schwamb 2:04
Oh, I gotta start. Okay.

Tony Arsenal 2:06
We had our British speaking thing.

Jesse Schwamb 2:11
All this drama, who will go first? How about, you know, how about you? I'll kick us off. Yeah, I'm fine with doing that. So this is the month of October. And it would be great for you to appreciate your pastors, which is generally I don't know who decided on October was the pastor Appreciation Month, but I'm down with it. I think we should stay in that lane. So this is like two for one, like definitely affirming that whole thing. But in terms of like other things happening in October, it's also a great time, for those of us that love Reformed faith and that tradition where of course drawn to the end of the month where we at least celebrate in some respect the Reformation itself, or at least the idea of the reformation, and there's a couple of books that I end up reading every year because they're good, they draw my mind back to certain things and I want to affirm one of those books and And encourage everybody to do the same. And that is get this book, keep it on your bookshelf and read it every October because it's super approachable. It's short enough that you can do that without investing all the resources. And yet it's rich enough that I give you this appreciation for the the Reformation all over again. And that book is by Pastor friend of the podcast, Nate piglets, and it's entitled, why we're Protestant, an introduction to the five solace of the Reformation. Yeah, it's just a brilliant little volume. And it's such a great resource. And it reminds you again, as it does me every year, just how good the good news is. Yeah. So this is one of those things too, that like you may be reformed and have like various, you know, kind of, like exposure to Reformed theology. And sometimes I find that even those who are very well versed in Reformed theology, struggle, we all struggle with this from time to time to answer the question, well, what was the Reformation like, what did it do? Why was it necessary? This is a succinct way to kind of move our minds into being able to give like a cogent answer to that question that's satisfying for somebody who's asking it and doesn't know anything. But also is again, it's a deep enough work that you'll certainly get something out of it.

Tony Arsenal 4:12
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think I've been a right like, a weird click Beatty kind of article that introduces the concept that pastors Appreciation Day actually was like a reformation principle. Like, yeah, and then in like, 20 years, it'll just people will just assume it's a fact. I'll have to put some pithy quote around it and pretend it was Martin Luther, people. Anything you say about Martin Luther, as long as it's pithy.

Jesse Schwamb 4:43
That's true timestamp it. Yeah. Speaking of that, I've just started where is it on my desk somewhere? I just started reading that book. Here I stand. Ah, and it's true because IQ is a unique enough guy that you can end like eccentric another That you could probably say almost anything in a tribute to him to peel back. Yeah, well, that was Luther.

Tony Arsenal 5:05
Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of Luther, I'm going to move on to my affirmation, please. My affirmation is beer, more or less. So, speaking of my loser, let's talk about beer. So absolutely, and I went to harpoon brewery, which is a New England brewery has an Oktoberfest celebration every October. And we went yesterday on Saturday. And it was probably one of the more fun times that I've had. And you know, it's it's interesting, people just desire community so much that they will rally around any kind of thing to form community. So like you grew up in New England, people up here are not the most friendly, outgoing people in the world. Like it's a little bit unusual for someone that you don't know to talk to you at like a like an event of some sort. Like people kind of keep themselves in mind their business, and I was had this thing and I'd have never had more people just like randomly strike up conversations with me in New England than I did yesterday. And I don't know if maybe it's because people were imbibing some alcoholic beverages and so things were just loosened up. But I actually think it really does have a lot more to do with the fact that people just naturally desire community. So I am affirming Oktoberfest so go enjoy a nice brewed beverage with or without alcohol but Sam Adams makes a good Oktoberfest harpoon makes a good Oktoberfest pretty much everybody at a craft brewery this time of year has a good Oktoberfest. So just take whatever pumpkin beer you might be drinking and dump it straight down the drain and then go buy an Oktoberfest.

Jesse Schwamb 6:42
That's that's a good word. Right? Yeah. And I affirm what you're saying about New England. New England is cold. So we can't spend time talking to people that we don't know we need that resource for body heat and show

Tony Arsenal 6:55
musicians.

Jesse Schwamb 6:56
Exactly. You got to make the call. So usually keep yourself totally on board with what you're saying there. I think when you get into any any kind of like region, and there's some kind of celebratory gathering, and it's let's say that gathering is a little bit nuanced, or it kind of has a particular purpose, or it draws a certain type of person, you immediately want to communicate with the people that are there. Because just like you so I think that Oktoberfest fits that bill. In many ways. We have the same thing in my community with like, whether that be around running or beer, it's or, you know, like, like building robots. It's just when you get those people together, that having that sense that you're there for the same purpose, automatically breaks down all these walls, which is why again, the gospel is so incredible, because if you go to any god honoring church on the Lord's Day, and you look among that group of people, there is no earthly reason why they should all be together. And so the fact that God through His Son can unite all of us bring us together with all these divergent personalities, these different interests, but There is real community in there because of the reason why we're all there. So it happened. It's like, isn't Oktoberfest like just like another shadow of the fact that God exists and that he wants us to be with one another and that he's given us the test to love him and love others.

Tony Arsenal 8:16
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and, you know, beer in general is like a perfect example of taking dominion over creation. Because it's like you take not only are you producing something, but like you're taking this process that is supposed to be that's like, inherently destructive, right? yeast is like a fungus. We were corrected after the last time I talked about yeast on the show. It's not a bacteria. It's like a little fungus. But yeast, it consumes sugar, and then it like poops out alcohol. And we've taken this process which is like inherently destructive. And we've harnessed it to make a glorious beverage that cheers the heart. So like, it's a perfect example of it. And I don't know like just find an Oktoberfest celebration, and just go and enjoy some good food, some good drink and some merriment and just enjoy what the Lord has for you.

Jesse Schwamb 9:08
Yeah, I love that. That's just any time of year. That's really good advice. But especially this time of year, there's all kinds of like great things that are centered on brewing or making beer because it's getting colder. And there's a lot of tradition around this time of month, especially for like making beer, often it will get longer, which means storing at a cooler temperature. So as the season changes, all of this now comes into play. I mean, we could talk about beer for a long time. The only thing I want to comment on is that as somebody who's made beer before, this is one of those things that just continues to blow me away. I think I've said in the podcast, how often making beer leads me into like straight up ducks, algae, and to your point about taking in under kind of all creation under dominion. We've said before that if everything wants to become alcohol, if you will let it Yes, let's sit out everything wants to really become alcohol. So in some sense, you would say okay, well then it's easy to make alcohol, right like just Don't leave a bunch of grapes in a bowl on your kitchen table for long enough and you'll wind will just pop out. But it's actually incredibly difficult. And you can make really bad tasting alcohol that will make you super ill. Yeah, that is absolutely within everybody's reach. But to do it well, and to make it awesome. It is like this harnessing so to speak or using these principles that God has created in all the world to take a living organism, the cellular organism and harness it in such a way that it's transforming all these other ingredients. And even in that there's something like beautiful and regenerative and something in there about the gospel transforming us and never being the same. So it's no matter which way you cut it. Luther was right. drink some beer. Yeah. And if people say listen, you're Christian, you can't drink beer. I believe Luther also address that as well. To which I think he said something like, I'm gonna drink it in your face anyway.

Tony Arsenal 10:54
Yeah. Less Lanphear from formerly from the reform podcast today. Show hasn't made an episode in like a year. But he in in the reform pub the other day, this you know, the topic of alcohol comes up frequently. And he said he was talking about the the concept of the weaker brother. And he said if I have a friend who used to be an alcoholic and struggles than what the Bible calls me to is to sacrifice my freedom in order to help him not to fall back into sin. He said, If I'm faced with the legal lyst than what the Bible commands me to is something closer to accidentally spirit, smelly, spilling it all over their head. Sounds like that's pretty much right. That's about right. And I got to put a bunch of like, King James only independent fundamentalist Baptist keywords in that episode description so that we support independent fundamentalist Baptist gets on here and he's like, I never Oh, my goodness. And then he's gonna say something about being on a wall or something.

Jesse Schwamb 11:53
Is that first of all, that last part, I have no idea what you're talking about. But just loved is that the standard go to response for fundamentals Baptist? Like the oma Yeah,

Tony Arsenal 12:05
yeah, they get really, really like, likes a Southern Gentleman style so I'm thinking gotcha, I never bless his heart. I never

Jesse Schwamb 12:15
well I declare Klay That's awesome. Yeah. Well see this is like super upbeat. I don't even know what to do now that we're not actually denying anything. It just seems like I feel so refreshed. Yeah, so jubilant?

Tony Arsenal 12:29
Yeah, we should probably talk about some judgment and like death and destruction.

Jesse Schwamb 12:33
Yes. If only there was something that could move us in that direction. Right? Yeah.

Tony Arsenal 12:37
Yeah. We're going to talk about the prophet Micah. We're continuing on in Micah cast, and we are in chapter three. And we have just a few verses, but I think there's a lot to it and I think we're going to get some good meaty conversation. So Jesse, do you have verses five through eight up in front of you?

Jesse Schwamb 12:55
You bet I do. I'm just going to read those. So here's Mike chapter three verses. five through eight. From the ESP, Thus says the Lord concerning the prophets who lead my people astray, who cry peace, when they have something to eat, but declare war against him who puts nothing into their mouths. Therefore I shall be night to you without vision and darkness to you without divination. The sun shall go down on the Prophets, and the day shall be black over them, the seer shall be disgraced, and The Diviners put to shame, they shall all cover their lips, for there is no answer from God. But as for me, I am filled with power with the Spirit of the Lord, and with justice and might to declare to Jacob his transgression, Israel is sin.

Tony Arsenal 13:40
So, we, you know, we looked at last week at the beginning of this chapter, and we commented how after sort of this little interruption, where God seems to like not be able to contain himself anymore and just has to issue for us this promise of mercy for his people. It jumped straight back into judgment and God A nation on the powerful people of Jerusalem and scenario. And so the very first part of this chapter section of verses one through four was a kind of a condemnation on the the judicial and the Royal elements of the rulership in Judah. And now verses five through eight switches over to the false prophets that had been proclaiming peace, when the true prophets of God had been proclaiming destruction because of the sin of the people. So this this section is interesting because, you know, there's a little bit of disagreement that I found in the commentaries about exactly what's going on here. And who these false prophets are. So you know, we tend to read false prophet, and we assume that a false prophet is has always been a false prophet. But some of the language in here actually seems to imply that the profits that Micah is addressing Actually, at one point those who did prophesied what the Lord had given them, and then over time had become corrupt, and began to prophesied for greedy game. And so you see in verses six and seven, where it's talking about how the sun will go down on them, one of the commentators basically talked about how this is sort of the dimming of the illumination of the Holy Spirit, that as as they begun to fail to proclaim what God had given them, that the inspiration that they had as prophets, the sun goes down on their inspiration. And now now instead of walking in the light as a true prophet does, they now walk in in both spiritual darkness with no knowledge of God's Word?

Jesse Schwamb 15:46
And I don't think that's inconceivable because I'm with you. Oftentimes, when we read these types of things, we think that Well, there's just a group of bad people that are doing bad things, and they've always been bad and annoying. Right. And, you know, I think what's more In all of our lives, and perhaps in this text as well is that there's there's a subtlety here, that we're talking about the people of God and that it's not inconceivable that these prophets who at one time would have been esteemed by the people because they were prophesying the truth of God, that it is so easy for any of us to slip from that type of place of authority. And then it turned around to use that for some type of unjust gain. Yeah. And what I find interesting is that he basically makes this whole case against these prophets actually think this, this suits your argument better, or supports it rather, is that these false prophets seem to be opportunists, right? So to get into that position, one might presume that at some point in time makes sense that they would have been telling the truth and being seen as legitimate profits because what their prophesied was coming to take place, right? So with that authority that in mind now we have these false prophets tailoring their pronouncements of peace and security to the desires of those who quite literally, according to this text are feeding them. So I find it interesting that the source of evil that Micah points out here is this desire for gain, and apparently was so strong, that there was no difference between what we said was true or false. But they really only sought to just get something of value in return. And there's like such a covenant status here. That's not only just enough for them to say, Well, I'm going to suit these particular prophecies to those I know who will pay me for them. But they actually go forward beyond that to declare war against anyone who didn't feed them. So we're talking about like a serious amount of, of evil from this covetous nature. And I think that actually makes more sense to me in the context of somebody who perhaps would have slowly over time moved away from true prophetic pronouncements under under God Himself. To one who would might use that power in other words, is that it's not hard for me to conceive that that jump was made.

Tony Arsenal 17:54
Yeah, yeah. And you know, when you think about most most people, we I would say on one level or another are false prophets. If you look at most of the prosperity preachers especially, or even even the, you know, like people who just have sort of gone off the rails in terms of biblical fidelity. If you listen to rob Bell, for example, if you listen to some of his early work, some of his early preaching, he was always sort of like, emotive and sort of touchy feely, which I never really resonated with. But some of the theology that he originally started teaching was actually not that bad. The same could be said of someone like Francis Chan, who as of late has kind of gone off the rails in the charismatic movement. Even Joel Osteen early in his career had certainly a much more exegetical approach. And as they, as they realized, as they started draw crowds, they just kept going off these rails, right. So it's not usually the case that someone explodes onto the scene of whatever it is just totally wrong and totally false. That's, that's the danger of this is that, you know, it's it's a degree off here a degree off there, and it changes the entire trajectory of things. And so what you know, what we see here in Micah is that there's a confrontation of Mike up by Micah of these false prophets. And he's, he's both judging them, but also calling them to account. And anytime that that a prophet issues judgment is also an opportunity to repent. And so we also, you know, we see here in this section, Micah is calling out to the false prophets. He's, he's accusing them of their sin, he's explaining to them what their judgment is. And that implies a call to repentance as well. So I just think we need to, you know, we need to look at this carefully and when we look at it and apply it to our day, you know, how do we address and how do we confront those who we believe to be false teachers? Do we just rail against them? Do we issue insults the public It certainly we're not above, inspired by the Holy Spirit. We're not above insulting language, right? The conflict between Elijah and the prophets of bail. He basically says like, well, your God must be taking a crap somewhere, which is why he's not answering you, you know. And so he's encouraging them to continue hurting themselves. And then ultimately, he comes to this place where he just exposes the glory of God and the rest happens according to God's purpose. But we have to be intentional when we address and confront those that we believe are in error. Even those who we believe are in gross error and even those who we believe are in gross air and doing it maliciously. We still have to remember that we are not the judges of those people. We should be exercising righteous discernment, right? It's it's perfectly okay. We do it on this show a lot. It's perfectly okay to call out a person for their erroneous teaching. It's perfectly okay to exercise righteous judgment and recognize when someone is Not demonstrating fruit that's keeping in repentance. But in the midst of all of that, we have to recognize that those people do not become our enemies. They become people that were to attempt to snatch out of the fire as God puts it.

Jesse Schwamb 21:12
Right. And to that point, I think a place where we could really apply this in our modern context, is perhaps more within the realm of our own friendships and spheres of influence. Yeah. So I mean, how many times have you come across you had a friend who is, you know, listening to something, reading something, and it's from a source that, you know, to be one that's off the mark. I mean, that's the opportunity here to speak up some of those. It's not just speaking out against writ large or kind of enigmatic wig and somebody who is teaching but is to apply that in our lives and our relationships with others, as they are as we ourselves and others are processing information that we received from all these different sources. And I think this is actually bound to happen a lot more frequently now because of the proliferation of media, news and information. Yeah, which just makes it easier for anybody to broadcast their message. Which means that even before we get to the point where we can confront these types of things, we have to know whether they're worth confronting, which means we need to have a solid base for doctrine and theology. And so what's interesting to me is that here God is allowing these false prophets in the midst of his people Israel. He says that at the beginning of the first set of verses there, he refers to him again, as my people, these adopted sons and daughters who are not worthy of that honor, but God is counting the message people, that he might punish the wickedness of the false teachers, of which Mike is accusing them. And in the midst of this, I think one should ask why are they even there to begin with? Why would God allow them to have a mouthpiece to have a foothold, to have a place? And if you go back to Deuteronomy 13, when God declares that whenever he has permitted false prophets to come among his people, it was to try them to see what sort of people they really weren't right? And just like in every pocket era, I think we're coming into the same of our own in this particular modern age. in which we live, and we need to be the kind of people that can discern good teaching from bad, and then are brave enough when we're with our friends and our family. And we're discussing that, to call it that teaching so as to mutually encourage one another toward good and true doctrine, as opposed to the doctrine which doesn't satisfy. Yeah. So when I find that this applies for me is in many conversations, especially in my place of work or with some of my secular friends, or non Christian friends, unbelieving friends, is, they're quick to identify with some of that common teaching, that just sounds really, really good. And I find that sometimes I need to be bold, or there, I need to take up a little bit more courage and say, I was just wrong teaching and let me explain to you why that is. And you know, people can be insulted by that. For instance, let me give you a quick example of a place where this type of application I think, can cause at the very least some social awkwardness. So my wife was with a group of people recently with a bunch of belief And somebody was talking about the book, the shack. Yeah. How that was there among like their most favorite books. And my wife to her credit did not hesitate in a loving way to say why that was a horrible book to have is your favorite book? Yeah. And I was really proud of her in that moment. Because there's, there's a lot of false teaching that's embedded in that. And there is the time where as Christians, we ought to in love to one another, not take fidelity to the Scriptures lightly, but confront that kind of thing again, in a way that's a lot more light than heat, but that we're also not afraid to bring the heat because this is something that's very important. Yeah. So I think there's like a little bit of nuance application that requires us to be brave among our friends.

Tony Arsenal 24:44
Yeah. Yeah. You know, when I was reading, studying for this, and I was thinking about that concept of why are there false prophets? How do we handle them? What should we do it them because we'll get into how Micah handles them here in a little bit, but it made me Think of First Corinthians 11 chapter 18, verse 18, it says, For in the first part, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part and this is the part that struck me, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. So I think sometimes, you know, we we think about polemics or, you know, contending for the faith or refuting those who are an error we think about that primarily as a defense of the truth almost like an evangelical or an evangelistic ministry, and it certainly is, right we, we do those things in order to propagate the gospel to make sure that those who are in the faith are grounded in the faith once delivered for the saints instead of something else. But beyond that, we also do that because it marks us off as those Who are serious about following Jesus and who are following the pattern of sound words which the apostles handed down to us. And so so polemics whether it's apologetics right, which is polemics primarily in the context of non Christians, or internal polemics where you're talking about refuting false teaching or refuting erroneous heterodox teachings like, you know, orthodox, Armenian ism, or even elements of Lutheranism, or erroneous teaching within Reformed theology, like the federal vision, or like EFS. In some instances, we mark ourselves off as those who are following the truth by standing up and refuting those who are teaching error. So it's important to do that not just because it's important to refute those things, but because it's what we're called to do and be and we can't demonstrate what we are unless we demonstrate what we are.

Jesse Schwamb 26:58
Exactly, it says if God gives this as a form of spiritual resistance, so to speak, you know, like running up a hill, with all that resistance of gravity is hard on the legs, and your cardiovascular system. But that's the very thing that builds muscle and endurance. And in somewhat the same way, here we have God allowing this his prayer ordination. So that we might be the ones like you said, that demonstrate how strongly we desire to run after the Lord Jesus Christ, and how we desire to have that kind of fidelity to the Scriptures, the whole and full counsel of God. And it strikes me that, you know, we've come across a lot of questions on this podcast. And I would say this exact vein and what I'm struggling with right now is that, you know, some people may be thinking, Well, I'm not the kind of person that wants to participate in politics, like I don't really want to go out and take on this really strong air of trying to confront all these things. I don't think that you do because I think that if you're honoring God, if you're serving him faithfully, if you're being a part of the family of God, this stuff will just fall into your lap all the time. Right? And but we have to be disciplined and diligent and ready forgiven accounts as Paul encourages, because this is the this is the way that we affirm that we are living in faithfulness and obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ that we know who he is that we know his commands, that we know the scriptures. And so this is just once again, like another case for having a strong basis for theology. Because without that, not only we just tossed, you know, to and fro, but without that we're not marking ourselves as as God's children, because God's children are those who are committed to learning about who he is, and what he desires for us. And then living that out in the world. And part of living that out is correcting error. Yeah, so one might say, if you're not correcting error, it's because only one of two things either one, the error doesn't exist, which is unlikely or two, you can't discern it. And so that's a problem either way.

Tony Arsenal 28:56
Yeah. Or there's a third option. You fear the sequences on a horizontal level for doing that, because it it is hard. And it does usually have relational consequences. Right? It was this this is how every single church that is slid into liberalism started with this, right they made the decision to allow something that was a matter of first importance to not be a matter of first importance, and they elevated horizontal unity above vertical clarity of doctrine. And so you know, that might be something as seemingly harmless as a compliment Tyrion ism, right? If you compromise on who can be in the pulpit, then then you can open yourself up to a whole range of partnerships with other people who are preaching the gospel. But the problem with that is in order to do that, in order to actually allow for egalitarianism to be true, you have to radically change your interpretive men. methodology of the Bible. So all the sudden, like I said, I've said before, I'm not one of those people that says all egalitarianism are necessary, necessarily liberals, but you do have to adopt a certain kind of liberalizing hermeneutics in order to interpret the passages the way you have to in order to allow for egalitarianism. So so that idea that it's no longer the the author that has the intention, and that the original context doesn't drive your hermeneutics, but it has to do with how how we apply the text now. That's a liberalizing tendency that most of the militaries have picked up on. So it starts with, usually with these small areas where you refuse to stand for the truth. And then all of a sudden, you slide and you slide and you slide. And now all the sudden you're accepting a theology that denies the incarnation of Christ. And here's here's a real world example. Right? I went I'm not gonna say his name, but I went to college with a friend of mine, who wouldn't Just had gotten done with college, he was going to pastoral ministry, and he was hoping to find a position in a conservative church. And so he accepted a call to a PC USA church. And when I said to him, you know, I'm a little bit concerned about this, because the PC USA is definitely headed in the right direction. He said something along the lines of, well, this particular church is not and I'm only going to be here for a few years, and I'm not going to have to deal with it. By the time I find another church, you know, I'll be out of here. So He then moved somewhere else. And he took another job at another PC, a church that was a little bit more liberal. And I said, you know, I'm still really concerned about this, you don't seem to be making progress towards a more conservative denomination? And his answer was like, Well, now that I've interacted with people who have those views a little bit more, you know, we really are unified in the in the central things of the gospel. We you know, we both understand the Trinity we affirm the existence of sin, we affirm the deity of Christ and so You know, then he went to Princeton, and he got his MBA at Princeton, and that you keep moving, you keep moving. And recently I talked to him. And I, I just flat out asked him, I said, Where are you on same sex marriage? And he said, Well, I've accepted it now. Because, you know, I'm still we're still really unified in the centrality of God's peacemaking mission in the world. And I said, Well, have you have you accepted the denial of the deity of Christ? Yeah. And he said, I'll never do that. And I said to me, so I remember a time that we had a conversation in college right before you took your first post, where you said you would never accept same sex marriage either. So so you move down this path. And it's again, it's just matters of degrees, right? It's the same thing we started talking about earlier, that you you move in matters of degrees and all the sudden you're on a different trajectory, that when you're close, it doesn't seem like a big deal, but you go 100 miles and all the sudden you're 200 miles off course from where you're supposed to be.

Jesse Schwamb 32:58
Right. That's a Great example. I think if anything, this little perk up here helps us to hone home in on that idea that any one of us can fall away when we take our eye away from our off of Jesus Christ. So it's not as if we study theology, of course, because we want to earn something. There is, however, a way in which we embrace the algae we run after Christ, we go to the Scriptures, we read the Scripture with the scripture read us, we meditate in almost a paranoid way, because we never want to be diluted. And we never want to fall away from the true gospel, especially those who are in leadership. But really every person is in some form of leadership because God has placed them in a unique position in their lives. And so I admire leaders. I've spoke with many leaders who have severe responsibilities that really shouldering a huge mantle. And what I find so interesting is how often and frequently and hard they fight for their own purity and for their own clarity of mind when it comes to doctrine, like they really fight hard for that every day through prayer and through study. And I think that's telling because I think they have the right idea in mind. Yeah, which is that little compromises never end. And they only results in a serious fall at some point and having you and I spoken on this podcast even like colloquially, and kind of, I'd say almost anecdotally about many preachers, many leaders, many pastors and teachers who have fallen away from the faith or have come under some kind of really shameful behavior. And in so much as we can tell, and as they express the background of that stuff, that it's always because of small compromises. Yeah, that just get out of hand. I mean, isn't that really the story of falling?

Tony Arsenal 34:51
Yeah, I mean, it's the same. As I said earlier, there's very few people that explode into the scene as like full blown false teachers and There's very few people who go straight to breaking the vows to remain chaste and marriage without, you know, 100 incremental steps before that could have had any at any one point they refuse to take a step farther, would have stopped the whole thing. Right? So, you know, a lot of times we were like two or three steps down the pathway of sin before we even realize we're on that pathway. And where that decision point comes in, whether whether it's false teaching or or a more practical kind of sin. Where the decision point comes in, is, am I going to continue to walk down this pathway? Or am I going to turn around and walk off of the pathway? It's, it's a rare person who consistently fails or consistently see is the pathway towards sin before they take a step on it. You know, someday in glory week, there won't even be a pathway to sin and iniquity. Increasing fashion. We recognize those pathways and we, we don't, we don't start to walk on them. But you're always going to find yourself at some point walking towards a sin and you have to decide do I do I keep walking? Right? Or do I do I turn around and go back towards righteousness? And you know, none of this is to earn your salvation. None of this is to do any of that. But we are called to die unto sin and to live unto righteousness. So I think it's important to sort of recognize that increment ality to sin. And then also just to recognize like it could get any of us like it's out there crouching for you, and you can it can get you you're not above Yeah, falling into sin.

Jesse Schwamb 36:38
Right, it's, it's at the door. It's waiting for you. Yeah. And so what's amazing is that God with his loving kindness has basically made provision for a way out So first, of course, Paul speaks about, we speak about like, elicits or obvious temptation that God will never attempt us beyond our means will always show a way out. But even at that point, Something that God allows for. And that is for us to come to him and say, God, I just don't know enough, I don't have enough wisdom to be able to proceed most of the time. And so I love that even in his opening, you know, James is saying, if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, because he gives it generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him, but just asked for it in faith. And I think that that's something as Christians like we just don't often do, or we have really deep prayer times, we're just asking God that he would give us wisdom, that wisdom to be better employees, that will be better husbands, or fathers, but merely just that Godly wisdom, which allows us to better discern when we are stepping into sin, and then have the wisdom to quickly repent of it, and to actually turn away 180 degrees and to walk in the other direction. Yeah, however, the Holy Spirit, I find that that's very convicting for me because that kind of wisdom, this Godly wisdom that the sole benefit is to have a life of abundance. And one obedience, where you know, of course, like when God through Micah is condemning these prophets, he's coming at them hard like there's, I mean, this language is tough in here. We just talked about cannibalism in the last podcast. Yeah. God's not of course, it's like a giant meaning, of course saying, well here, all these rules that I have for you, you must follow them. When God says know, what he really means is don't hurt yourself. So there's a kindness even in this, even though it's harsh, because the harshness of God is really softer than anything we could hope for. And there's true love embodied in this judgment there. I mean, that's probably as good as places anywhere to kind of pivot a little bit. And then talk about in these next couple of verses, these false prophets and how they're going to be judged and shamed by God's silence. Yeah. So what do you think of like verse six? And how that kind of pivots and transitions a little bit away from what we're just talking about?

Tony Arsenal 38:51
Yeah, I mean, this this goes to kind of what we started talking about a little bit that this seems to indicate i when i first read this argument, I was a little bit deeper. I was like, No, no, these are false prophets from the start. But this really does seem to indicate that there were these people, probably people that were Mike, his peers and colleagues. Right? Right. The prophets interacted with each other. Right? There's there's, there was a school of prophets. But there was also sort of like this informal College of prophets, where you see them interacting with each other, you see them referencing each other's writings at times. And so these are probably people that Michael was familiar with, that he was aware of, certainly people he's addressing now. And all the sudden now he's saying, basically, like, you thought it was bad before. Now it's going to be like night, there's no vision, you're going to be without divination. And the sun is going down on you, you're going to be in the darkness, the day will be like blackness to you. And so there really is this element of kind of shutting down and closing off the profits. And, you know, one of the things it's not the case that God was utterly inactive during the social called 400 years of silence. God was actually doing a lot of things in the 400 years of silence between Malika and Matthew. But the words of prophecy had been sealed up. Right? So there was this robust era of prophecy around the time of the kings, where God was through the prophets, God was calling Israel back to repentance. And then they went into exile. And there was this minor era of prophecy after they returned from exile. But there really is so so obviously Micah is talking to the prophets immediately in front of him. But then as we go, we go into the exile we come out of the exile. Prophecy as a whole is becoming more and more rare, more and more, more and more quiet until God silences all of the words of prophecy. And and that's not only a judgment on these individual profits, but it's also a judgment on the people. right because you know, where there is no where there's no vision, the people perish. Right. I know that the the charismatics, the ultra charismatic take that way off the rails. But the fact of the matter is what God is saying is where there is no prophetic word of scripture where there's no communication from God, there is nothing but death and misery. And so as the prophets themselves are being shamed, and their their words are being sealed, so also the people are increasingly being withdrawn from the Word of God over time.

Jesse Schwamb 41:27
Right, the literal phrasing of verse six is excellent. Yeah. reads there so BTU a night from vision. Yeah. Which I think I just love that phraseology as it kind of as a literal translation English because here's what's interesting. First, Micah doesn't say you guys are just going to be blind. So we have here is, you know, night is often a representation of God's great judgment. Yeah. So it's the taking away of the vision by way of the judgment. And so here you have, presumably, and again, I think this this really is a boon for this idea that these false Teachers are once wholly devoted to God, because they have, in some respect clearly just in this passage, the authority of the people. So it's possible no one dared speak against them. They're certainly respected in some light. And what God's saying here is, I will strip those false teachers of their superficial outward dignity. And I'm going to have all these calamities press upon these false prophets so overwhelmingly as to compel them to cease to pretend that they can actually divine it all the way. And it's going to be in a sense of overwhelming gloom and darkness, in judgment and their last ability to perceive spiritually, which again, is almost in line with this what we've been talking about the disease, the spiritual disease of this people, generally and here, it's being basically manifested in these leaders. I think there's a lot there's a lot I think, in this for our modern context, I love Let me just read what john Calvin wrote on this first because of course, he's among the best and says it so succinctly. He says the whole world shall understand that you he's talking to the false prophets are not what you boast yourselves to be for I will show that there is not in you know, not a particle of the prophetic spirit. But the ER men as dark as night and darkness shall be to you instead of divination. He boasts of great acuteness and great purpose acuity of mind but I will discover your basis so at the very children may know that you are not and dude with the spirit.

Tony Arsenal 43:27
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that that brings us and I want to spend a little bit of time on this. That brings us to verse eight, where Micah now contrasts the prophets, the false prophets, who are being sealed and shut up with now him and and by extension, the other true prophets who continue to proclaim God's word. And you know, there's there's beautiful tributary and implications here that I'm sure we'll talk about. But he says, As for me, I am filled with power and with the Spirit of the Lord and with justice. And might. And so so he's saying that while there were these false prophets that were proclaiming peace and were proclaiming prosperity, and may or may not have, at one point been true prophets, they no longer are, they no longer have any power. They no longer have if they ever did the Spirit of God empowering their ministry. But now for the true followers and prophets of God, they are in do not just with power, but with God Himself. And I think that's key for us because, you know, sometimes I think as reformed Christians, you know, we very much are a people who live in exile, right? So, we are a people who live in sort of an alien land. We're among people of alien cultures. We don't really fit in or at least we shouldn't fit in. Our worship is strange to those a lot of times even within the church, you want the flashiness of modern worship. And so we, we have to recognize that we we don't need to worry about what's going on with them. Because as for me as for us, we're in do with the Spirit of the Lord. That's not to say that there aren't Christians out there who have other kinds of worship or other church arrangements that we would say are an error that don't have the Spirit of the Lord. That's not what I'm saying. But we shouldn't look at the failure of the church and other quarters as something negative. I think oftentimes we do that we sort of lament the fact that there are certain parts of the church that seemed to be in decline. Well, the reality is God is shutting down he's he's setting the sun on the false prophecy of false Christianity, right? Christianity Christendom had an enormous amount of power and with it became a came a lot of wealth and prosperity that then was used to oppress people right. Now that we have kind of come into this post Christian Age, and that that power and that influences on the wane. We're sort of frustrated by at times, but we shouldn't be. Because true Christianity is as powerful as it ever was because the same spirit that empowered it in the book of Acts is the same spirit that empowers true Christian fellowship to Christianity today. And nothing can stop that. And so just as Micah is saying, those false prophets no longer have any power, they no longer have any prophecy. You know, they're the seers have been disgraced. The Diviners have been put to shame, they'll cover their mouths, because there's nothing from God for them. But as for me, as for me, a prophet of the Lord, I have the power and the Spirit of the Lord. And that's, that's really where we need to understand ourselves. That's where we need to go. When we go into these dark places, spiritually dark, intellectually dark, right? Planned Parenthood, for example, just put out a statement that they're going to be funding Basically funding political campaigns. I mean, how much more overt Do you get than that? Right? They're straight up saying, we're going to pay to put people in office that we believe will forward our our agenda. And it's the darkest, most vital lyst evilness agenda that we have seen in a long time. Right, that there are other things that the the liberal feel of theologically and politically liberal, left have done that are bad, but the advocacy for the murder of unborn children is as evil as it gets, right? That still is not something that we need to fret about. Because our Lord is in control, and we have the Spirit of the Lord. So we should be bold to go into those dark places, just as Michael was, and proclaim the gospel, proclaim the law. proclaim God's truth in those dark places. Because when we do that, the power of the Spirit of the Lord and the Spirit of the Lord who is also Justice in might lives and dwells in us and empowers our message. And he will bring about whatever effect he intends to bring about.

Jesse Schwamb 48:08
Right? There's a lot with Micah here that we should try to emulate. And it's It is amazing that he starts off that sentence by saying I am full of power. Because Yeah, if you'd ask the average Christian, perhaps to say that they'd feel uncomfortable with that kind of phraseology, even though you did acknowledge that well, it's it's not the power isn't me, but is the power resides right? by the Holy Spirit, but he's out front about it. He just says, I'm full of power. And this is, as you said, the spirit of your way, which imparts for the discharge of that prophetic function. Right. And we I think, what we need to be careful about here is to recognize that this spirit that he speaks up here, and the one that you just spoke about, that in dwells us, is the same spirit throughout the entire scriptures. So like, for instance, I just pulled up these verses and Luke because as you're speaking that came to my mind, Luke one seven Again, listen to how the spirit is being described here. With the spirit and power of Elijah, he that is Jesus will go before him to turn the hearts of parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous, to make ready have people prepared for the Lord, or in reference to what you're talking about with Pentecost, and Luke 24. And see I am sending upon you what my father promised. So stay here in the city until you have been clothed with power. from on high. Yeah, so you're right, like we need a different sensibility about who we are, we need a different awareness that this Holy Spirit brings the full power of God and that we shouldn't shy away from that. And so I think that changes then of course, the conversations we were just talking about in correcting error, but it also means that again, we wait we can ask for wisdom we can ask for we're with all we can ask for discipline in our lives, and we can be transformed and change like we shouldn't have a defeatist attitude, even about our own bad habits. In such as we are coming before God and saying by the power of your Holy Spirit, will you Change me, will you feel me? Will you transform me more into the likeness of your sons that I might be obedient? So I might shine more brightly for those who need to see light in dark places. So it's this this wonderful continuity. You in other words in the Scriptures, you never have a place where you're like, Okay, so that's the spirit there. That's not the same one that I have. So any distinction here? It's always everywhere. The spirit, and he's always everywhere comes in power. It's just a great encouragement.

Tony Arsenal 50:28
Yeah. Yeah. And of course, you know, I think we would be doing a disservice if we didn't just comment on this briefly. We're kind of wrapping up here. But this is one of those spots in the Old Testament, where the doctrine of the Trinity is on full display. Right? Because, yes, there's no bones being picked in this passage about the fact that the Spirit of the Lord is seen as distinct from the Lord, right, that the language here is so clear, that we're not talking about some extension of God's In personal power, we're not talking about some sort of like circumlocution, or or euphemism, designed to not speak too closely about God. What we're talking about here is this distinct entity called the Spirit of the Lord that fills the Prophet. And you know, all throughout here we're talking about the Lord. Thus says the Lord, they will cry to the Lord is not the Lord in the midst of us out, you know, we get to later The Lord is a figure here, right? It's not as though the Prophet is shy about talking about the Lord directly. Right? That's one of the explanations that sometimes people give of the Spirit passages in the Old Testament is that, well, the Hebrews are trying to be indirect about the Lord. So rather than say, The Lord did something, or the Lord revealed something they say the word of the Lord or the Spirit of the Lord, but there is no hint of shyness anywhere here in this passage. And what I find is really interesting is You know, there's this passage in Amos, where the Prophet says, Let me pull it up because I don't want to misquote it. It says, For this is Amos 370 says, For the Lord does nothing without revealing his secret to his servant the prophets. And then in the book of Hebrews, you know, the author of Hebrews basically says that the entire economy of redemption, the the heavenly tabernacle, which is Christ, was revealed to Moses. And so all of the earthly implements were made after the pattern of the heavenly ones. And so there's all these passages that seem to imply that at the very least Moses, but I think the prophets in general had this theological glimpse into reality that we we sometimes don't give them credit for. And so when when, when Micah says, The Spirit of the Lord fills me or I am filled with the Spirit of the Lord, I don't think we should think that he is somehow like ignorantly making this, tryna Terry Statement without realizing it. And we see this kind of statement all throughout the Old Testament, but especially in the later prophetic books, we see this distinction between the way, the the word of Yahweh and the spirit of Yahweh. And yes, we can see that with more clarity after the after the Christ, so called Christ event, if you want even call it the Christ event. When we look at the life and ministry of Jesus, and then the coming of the Holy Spirit, we see these passages almost infinitely more clearly than the people in the era would. But the prophets were given this special insight into the very nature and being of God, that even we with the Holy Scriptures don't necessarily have access to. So we should we should see these passages. And here's when it comes to this goes back to the idea of polemics. We should not be shy about using these passages to demonstrate the reality of the Trinity. Whether we're talking to other Christians who want to make it seem as though the doctor the attorney is sort of a new title. A thing and it wasn't really there in the Old Testament, or whether we're talking to heretics, like witness Pentecostals, or Mormons, or whether we're talking to non Christians who are attacking the faith like Muslims or Jews who want to undercut the doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Testament, we should not be shy about utilizing these clearly tributary and passages to justify and explain the doctrine of the Trinity from Scripture. If anything, we should we should, we should hit the Old Testament passages extra hard, because that eliminates the idea that somehow people were just trying to explain this Jesus thing. Well, they weren't trying to explain the Jesus thing in the Old Testament. There wasn't a Jesus thing yet to explain. So Micah had no ulterior Christian motive to try to explain who this Jesus was. He was just proclaiming what God had given him.

Jesse Schwamb 54:53
Right? Yeah, he just has insight. I mean, it sounds obvious to say, but why else would he say it like this? Yeah, but let's see actually Understood to some extent and new and again, it was a prophetic word to him because you're right the language is so consistent it's almost interested more funny to be that like we get to the New Testament we find all the same language referring to the spirit in the Old Testament just being appropriate again Even Jesus himself when he reads from Isaiah says, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. It's we're talking about the same language and it's just there with this wonderful again, continuity in the Scriptures, explaining the Trinity in every place of the Scriptures, not just in one place. And here you have it and in in the midst of this incredible judgment. Here you have and this juxtaposition between here these guys they're just getting it all wrong. And then Michael comes in it's like full stop another sentence like I am filled with power it I mean, that's the same thing that all Christians can claim and this power I think one way to maybe wrap this up is to say like this power, though, is not knock everybody out. Stage style beat everybody over the head. Right? It's we have in Micah, there was he was guided by judgment and discretion. He was a man of wisdom as well as courage. And and all his preaching there was a light, I think as well as heat, and a spirit of wisdom as well as a spirit of zeal that is being full of the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And I think that we know it, when we see it, because it's difficult to be all those things in balance. Usually, when you become misguided, and you end up in one extreme, you know, that you're not exercising the spirits in a way that is true to the content, the quality and the character of God Himself.

Tony Arsenal 56:39
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's probably a good place to wrap it up is you know, we, we look at these passages and what we see is God's judgment on those who have departed from the truth. Right in the the judicial realm at the beginning of of Micah three. It's people who have departed from the truth of God's law and the priority That God has placed. We saw that earlier when he's talking about how they've kind of neglected the inheritance laws. And now you know, that's the that's the the wealthy elite, the land owners who have now disregarded the law. We have the judges of Israel, the kings of Israel who've disregarded the responsibility to execute justice. Now we have the prophets who've who've neglected their duty to proclaim God's word faithfully. So we see all these people who have neglected God's word, and it didn't start with a wholesale denial of the reality of God's truth, right? It all started with degrees and shades and every stolen piece of land started with a single shady deal, right? Every miscarriage of justice started with a single bad verdict, which which favored the wealthy or resulted from a bribe, every single false teacher began with a single false teaching. So we should take this and we should understand it and we should be cautious, less, we follow And become one of the false teachers that the sun sets on.

Jesse Schwamb 58:04
And I want to bring us all the way back to the beginning and say, one, what you should do is go out with some good friends, or even some new friends, have a have a beer a good drink, and get together and read why we're Protestant. reformation because it's, it's texts like this. And pastor Nate pick, what does this so well, pulls us back into our confession pulls us back into understanding why we believe what we believe and knowing what we believe. And so it's as if, of course, God has given us knowledge. He's given us wisdom, he's given us the scriptures. So there wouldn't be just this ephemeral sense that there are things that must guide our lives, but that there are actual things. Yeah. And so to know those things, is to be safe. To know those things is to live an abundant life and to know those things is to experience I think, the blessing and the pleasure of God, not because you're transacting salvation, but because you're living the way that That we were intended to live and being free from error in so much as we're able to on this side of heaven. So that's why what a time to be alive, right? Like Yeah, that's the podcast. You can get all the access to all these amazing works. You can go to like monetarism calm and download, I don't know, like 6 million free texts from the Puritan I know, there's all this wonderful stuff to fill our minds. And if that wasn't enough to have the scriptures in like every conceivable way And like every conceivable advice and every conceivable medium, and yet we are so slack with investing ourselves into those things and meditating metabolizes them. Yeah, man. There's a lot of conviction falling on me. Yeah. And this particular conversation.

Tony Arsenal 59:39
I hear you. Well, Jesse, I think next week is reform preaching cast, isn't it?

Jesse Schwamb 59:47
Yes, it's book cast

Tony Arsenal 59:49
book cast. Is it book cast? It is book cast, I think.

Jesse Schwamb 59:53
Yeah, it's book cast.

Tony Arsenal 59:54
Great. I love book cast feels like it's been an extra long amount of time. Since we Had the last book cast but I don't think it has. I just miss it that much.

Jesse Schwamb 1:00:05
I listen, I just love books. I love reading books. I love reading books with you and talking about books that were reading together.

Tony Arsenal 1:00:11
There you go. So we are working our way through reformed preaching by Joel beaky. I thought that that was the book you were gonna say you read every year and I was like, it's only been out for a year Jesse.

Jesse Schwamb 1:00:22
No, I mean that. That's a serious book. But what a blessing that book has been right I mean, again, when I say this every time but people grab a copy of this book is not too late. The chapters are somewhat compartmentalised. Anyway so you can just jump in with us and continue on I actually don't remember what what chapter we on

Tony Arsenal 1:00:40
chapter 10 we're like not even halfway through yet.

Jesse Schwamb 1:00:44
Oh, yeah, there's plenty of time to come on this journey. So get on the reform preaching train. And IL that's already a horrible metaphor. I got a ticket. You know, like, even if you're on the caboose, like Yeah, I just already This was things as soon as I started the metaphor, I was like, I regret this.

Tony Arsenal 1:01:03
You're like, I made a horrible, but there's nothing I can do.

Jesse Schwamb 1:01:07
There's nothing in the words already out of my mouth. This is zero editing podcast people's true. No edits. It's Dorito work with a net. We're just up there live in the dream.

Tony Arsenal 1:01:17
It's true every once while we fall like the flying will end does is too soon, too soon, like 60 years ago, right?

Jesse Schwamb 1:01:26
Yeah, I don't. I don't know what the statute limitations are. I'm making circus related jokes. I have no idea.

Tony Arsenal 1:01:33
I did see a video on YouTube the other day. I don't even know how this came up. Were like an entire circus family fell off the high wire like into the middle of the like, central stage like right in front of everybody. I don't think anybody died but like a bunch of them had to go to the hospital.

Jesse Schwamb 1:01:50
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's a whole nother world right there. I haven't. I haven't been to the circus and like forever is the circus still thing?

Tony Arsenal 1:01:57
I think so. I don't even like to walk down the stairs. Can't imagine being on like a high rise like a high wire.

Jesse Schwamb 1:02:04
You know what's funny is recently there's a as you know, like where we live, there's a train crossing. And I would say maybe this is like a couple years ago, my wife and I were sitting at the crossing, we happened to be the first ones there and the train is going past and all sudden, we noticed it's not usually just like freight. But in this particular time was like actual cars. And then we noticed that actually was labeled Barnum and Bailey Circus. And here's the funny thing, like we were very disappointed that like, there wasn't like a giraffes head sticking out of cars or like an elephant. You know, like, just just hanging out the back. It was like very underwhelming we're kind of like we're we're like the animals Where's like the fun stuff that you picture happens on circus trains, like, like a clown hanging out the window like

Tony Arsenal 1:02:45
crackers cart. like nobody ever thought about like what happens when the draft card gets to a tunnel. They get on the other side. They're like, Oh, we need another draft. Somebody gets the hose

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:01
Oh, listen this. We do not we do not condone giraffe violence.

Tony Arsenal 1:03:07
No, I'm saying and they need to think it through a little bit more carefully. The first guy who figured out that wasn't gonna work had a big mess to clean up.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:17
Oh, man,

Tony Arsenal 1:03:19
that poor draft that's

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:21
that's probably true.

Tony Arsenal 1:03:22
I read about that on the same news website that I read about pastor Appreciation Day finding its origin in the Reformation.

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:32
Here's the thing. I'm eagerly awaiting that article that long quotation from Luthor. Yeah, let's do it.

Tony Arsenal 1:03:38
I just need to throw a few like choice words like fart and poop. And maybe like popery, and like not like Paul Perri like popery. What was that?

Jesse Schwamb 1:03:52
Were you making a great pun that was like I might have popery

Tony Arsenal 1:03:57
popery and popery. Yeah

Jesse Schwamb 1:04:00
Yeah, that's absolutely great. See that again, there's so much room on Luther that you can pretty much just say all the things you should make it that was like it was like thesis number 22 or something like that.

Tony Arsenal 1:04:09
You just have to say that it was in Table Talk, and then nobody ever looks it up. possible to find anything in table talks. That's true, like 95% of the most damning quotes that the Roman is so bring to you in a debate are from Luther, his table talks, and none of them can actually justify where they got it. True story. I was having a debate. I did a radio debate with a Roman Catholic guy. Oh, it must have been seven years ago. Now. I was living in Connecticut. And the guy brought up like the classic quote he was talking about, was talking about Luther wanting to throw out the book of James, something like that. And I literally just said, Where did you get that quote? And he cited it from Table Talk. And I said, Did you actually pull it up, or did you just get it up someone else's PowerPoint presentation? And he goes, Well, I got it off someone else's PowerPoint presentation. And I went, No further questions. Yeah, so yeah, if you ever want to just make up a Luther quote, just say you found it in Table Talk and save. If you save Reimers, then it sounds real because it sounds like a big class. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But you're never going to find anything in there. So. So somewhere in Table Talk is where we started. pastoral Appreciation Month.

Jesse Schwamb 1:05:33
This is the kind of thing that you can only get on the reform brother podcast right here. Luther was like will tell you.

Tony Arsenal 1:05:40
Luther was like, listen up fart head. You better appreciate your pastors. And we're going to do it in October, along with our Oktoberfest beers, poop fighter.

Jesse Schwamb 1:05:52
Please write this article. Please use that as the quote. So good. All right, Jesse.

Tony Arsenal 1:06:00
We need to figure out how to bring this train to a stop.

Jesse Schwamb 1:06:05
Please no more train. Everything. I gotta get off this. I regret everything. Yeah, there were definitely off the tracks.

Tony Arsenal 1:06:14
So all right, Jesse. Well

Jesse Schwamb 1:06:16
until

Tony Arsenal 1:06:18
we did the break. Oh my goodness, we can't stop.

Jesse Schwamb 1:06:25
You go ahead. I I want to yield and submit to the amazing closure that you're about to bring to this podcast.

Tony Arsenal 1:06:31
All right, Jesse, please until next time, honor everyone.

Jesse Schwamb 1:06:34
Love the Brotherhood.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai