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Tony and Jesse cover the final judgment oracle in Micah 3.
Link to DENS background vocals thing
Jesse Schwamb 0:02
Welcome to Episode 160 of the reformed brotherhood. I'm Jesse.
Tony Arsenal 0:16
And I'm Tony and we are proud members of the Society of reformed podcasters.
Hey, brother.
Jesse Schwamb 0:31
Hey, brother. So before we launch into some epic affirmations and denials On this episode, can I take a moment to just express a little gratitude? Are you done with that? Let's do it. So there are a number of brothers and sisters who are part of the reformed brotherhood, who give a little bit each month toward this podcast and I'm really super grateful for those who invest in that way. And another one was added this week. So brother Mike, I just want to say Thank you for giving to the podcast. Of course, your first responsibility at all of our first possibly as Christians is to our churches, but there's so many that I know are giving to the churches and then giving above and beyond in a little ways toward us. And what I love about this is so many people give just these little gifts, you know, a couple bucks here there. And that makes such a big difference to us. Yeah, it really does.
Tony Arsenal 1:22
Yeah, you know, there are other ways to give to if you want to just send us money, we're happy to take your money and put it to good use. But if you want some sweet gear, that also gives us a little bit of money, you can head over to confessional where.com and all of your purchases. They mostly go to help our brother FEL who is so gracious to put together all of our merchandise for us, but we do get a little portion of that as well. So if you're looking for some sweet gear, maybe a midwinter, no specific reason somewhere around the solstice present. Check it out at confessional where and you can still get the super limited time. edition reformed brotherhood beer Stein by had nowhere to confessional were calm still, as well. They're really sweet.
Jesse Schwamb 2:08
I'm not sure that we can really express the gravity of how cool this diner is because it is a straight up German style ceramic style or logo on it. It's unique. It's one of the kind you you have people over you bust this bad boy out. It changes everything.
Tony Arsenal 2:24
Yeah, I'm still probably going to at some point drink my morning coffee out of it. Because I usually have two cups of coffee in the morning so I might as well just put it all in one beer Stein and drinking in the morning.
Jesse Schwamb 2:38
This is legit bigger than a pint. Right? Is that we we determined?
Tony Arsenal 2:41
Yeah, it's 22 ounces. So it's like a pint and a half. A little more than that.
Jesse Schwamb 2:45
Yeah, that's a beautiful thing right there. So should go to confessional word calm. You can also give@patreon.com That's PATREON. com backslash, reformed brotherhood or you can just Go to our website, reformed brotherhood, calm and there are all kinds of fun links in the upper right hand corner, one of those of which is Patreon to give. So I just want to start out by saying thank you, thank you for being willing to give a little bit. I can't say how much that helps us cover all the incidental expenses that we have. It's one less thing actually you and I have to worry about because if we could just really enjoy the conversation and not have to worry about how we're going to cover some of the costs that come along with this.
Tony Arsenal 3:22
Yeah, thank you so much.
Jesse Schwamb 3:25
Thank you. So without any further ado, let's get into some affirmations and denials. Would you mind kicking us off affirm something?
Tony Arsenal 3:33
Sure. So this has gotten a little bit of a backdoor story that we've got to get to but I love backdoor
Jesse Schwamb 3:39
story Yeah,
Tony Arsenal 3:40
like a backdoor story like you have to come in from from the story and behind it. I don't know. So
Jesse Schwamb 3:45
like not not just backstory. But backdoor story.
Tony Arsenal 3:48
Yeah, yeah, I guess. I don't want this. I don't know if that's a saying or not, but it is now.
Jesse Schwamb 3:55
Sell it. Tell me tell me the backdoor story.
Tony Arsenal 3:57
I'm affirming. Michael Tate. formerly the lead singer of DC talk, currently the lead singer of news boys. And the reason I'm affirming Michael Tate. I mean, I don't really know a lot about this guy's personal life. But when I met him at the airport the other day, he seemed pretty nice.
Jesse Schwamb 4:16
so hilarious. I know.
Tony Arsenal 4:18
So I'm sitting in the airport, right? I was traveling home to visit family in Minnesota. And I'm sitting in the airport, you know how you're in the airport, you're kind of people watching and you sort of like listening because you're always waiting for like announcement about your flights. You always have like, one year open, listening for whatever. And all of a sudden, I hear this guy singing and I'm like, Man, that voice sounds so familiar. And I look up and I was like, This guy looks so familiar. And I'm like, I think that's Michael tape from DC talk. So I'm like getting on my phone, like looking at pictures of them. And I was like, I don't know. It's really hard to tell. So I'm watching. I'm looking at like the group of people who's sitting with and I'm like, Are any of them wearing like news boys shirts or like, like, even like, sort of like Christian t shirts, something that would like indicate to me that my my instinct is is right. And finally I'm like, I just got to go ask, it's gonna bug me It's literally going to bug me for the rest of my life if I don't go ask. And so I walk over and I say, I'm sorry, this might be really awkward, but are you Michael tape? And he looks at me He goes, Yeah, brother I am. And so, you know, like, like, you know, we sometimes bash a little bit on like CCM like Christian music or, but like, the fact is, DC talk was hugely influential in my early Christian life. I actually remember the first time that I can consciously recall feeling conviction about sin was when I was listening to the song in the light by DC talk. So I just I just shared with you that that DC talk was really influential, and that Jesus Freak was a really significant song in my life because you know, I know that You were raised in a Christian family but I was definitely not raised in a Christian family. So when I when I became a born again Christian, like people called me strange does that make me a stranger was like the real, like the reality of my life, my life became very strange to those around me. So having like a song to rally around that, that I could, like, listen to you in sort of almost like, metabolize in sort of a framework to like, understand my life through is really important. So it's funny because like, I don't get starstruck, like I wasn't nervous and like, I've met a bunch of like, famous theologians, I don't usually ask for like a picture with them. But he goes, he goes, come on, let's get a selfie. So I probably would not have asked for a selfie but he wanted to take a selfie So, so it was good. So I met Michael at the airport. Apparently the news boys and all their crew fly Southwest. So it was funny to just like, watch them get up and stand in line, like a bunch of chumps like the rest of us. So it was it was an interesting morning, but it was it kind of made my whole day. Because it was like, it was kind of like I sat back and reflected on God's providence, like, of all the terminals like Chicago, Chicago midway has, what? Like 15 terminals? Huge. Yeah, I was only at the terminal I was at because my flight actually got changed terminals based up for besides what my ticket was in, like he happened to be going through that terminal. I happened to be paying attention. he happened to be singing a song that I've sort of recognized. So like, all these little things that God lined up. I don't know what he was, I don't know what God's purpose in this providential he was. Maybe it was to encourage me maybe it was to encourage him, maybe was to encourage his bandmates? I don't know. But all these things lined up and it's just kind of marvelous to see how God's providence works out. Okay, have a couple of questions about the backdoor story. All right, let's do
Jesse Schwamb 7:46
what what was he singing? Do you remember?
Tony Arsenal 7:49
I don't really I just kind of like heard him singing and you know, like, you hear like a person's conversation or whatever but to register what they're actually talking about. Yeah. heard him singing. And I just recognize the voice. It was like he's got a very distinct voice. And it's funny because I probably haven't heard a news boys or DC talk song in like five years like an actual like him singing probably five years but he just has one of those voices that just so it was locked into my head.
Jesse Schwamb 8:19
That's incredible. I love the story when you asked me were like, Guess who I met at the airport? That like you said to me, I think I'll give you 100 bucks right now. Yeah, I guess I was not even close in any of my guesses. Yeah, you just sent me the picture. And even I was like 10 Michael T. Yeah, like of all people.
Tony Arsenal 8:36
Yeah. And I
Jesse Schwamb 8:38
don't know why he was like immediately recognizable to me. I have no idea. But yeah, after you sent me that text and relayed some of the story. I went home like that night and listen to almost all of supernatural that the DC and I was like, Man, that album is aged well, yes. Good album.
Tony Arsenal 8:56
I went on my way home. I threw on Jesus Freak, which the song The song is aged pretty well. I wasn't driving it I was waiting for my for the plane to like taxi when I was listening to it. And I I was watching the video, the music video is not age so well. It's just like the three of them like making weird faces in front of like this strange images and like it's just not a it's a it's not a great video. You know it's funny though, because this is now the second member of DC talk that I've met randomly out in public in a like, non musical situation like
Jesse Schwamb 9:35
flew away who was the other one I met?
Tony Arsenal 9:39
Was it Kevin Smith? Yeah, it was Kevin Smith, the other one? Not Toby McKeon. Kevin Smith, the more singer guy like Toby Mac was obviously like more of the rapper and then Michael Tate and Kevin Smith were more of the vocals and they were doing a signing at the local Christian bookstore near my house in Minnesota. I wasn't going to The signing I didn't even know there was a signing, I would have gotten to the signing if I knew about it was for supernatural actually. And I was I was out in the parking lot of stopping to get subway. And I randomly looked into like the cab of this van and I was like is that Kevin Smith? And I like was kind of staring at him and he like pulled me like he waved me over to the van. He could tell I recognized him. So now I just need to run into Toby Mac at like, the barber shop or something and, and we'll be all set.
Jesse Schwamb 10:28
Will you seem I would say on the trend to have that happen like providential. Yeah seems to be lining up just right for you.
Tony Arsenal 10:35
You know, news voice has become sort of this amalgamation of like former Christian bands. We just need to get somebody from audio adrenaline to join the band. And then maybe like Steven Curtis Chapman to do some like cameo appearances and we've got like the quintessential 90s band just in capsule in a modern day band.
Jesse Schwamb 10:57
I think if you could get a chorus or a verse in there, from Like a W. Smith, you'd be all set.
Tony Arsenal 11:01
Yeah, yeah, we'd be it'd be pretty locked in there.
Jesse Schwamb 11:05
Well, well, this turned into like a walk down. Memory Lane. I know respect to Christian contemporary.
Tony Arsenal 11:11
Yeah. So good. It was crazy. It was a really like surreal experience. It was fun. I mean, he's a nice guy. It was funny to watch them because part of the reason that I felt okay going up to talk to him was because he was kind of like bouncing around the terminal, like engaging random people. Like it wasn't like he was just sitting there. He was sort of like, like walking around talking to people and just like, like being an outgoing person. So I felt like, okay, even if this isn't Michael Tate, this isn't the kind of guy that's going to be like spraying me with pepper spray because I asked him if his name was Michael Tate. So I felt good about going up there. But it was fun to watch. Like, it was just this group of guys like horsing around like they're shoving each other around, or they were waiting in line and like, kind of like revenue each other. So it's like, just a bunch of guys on tour. But it was really sort of humbling, like good for them. They just fly Southwest like everybody It's like, like they're like you can tell that it hasn't not that like CCM artists are making tons of money, but they probably make more money than you or I do. And but they still like they're taking like regular commercial airlines flying coach, because that's like, Southwest doesn't have anything but coach, really. So it was it was an encouraging happenstance. Right on Yeah, that what are you affirming?
Jesse Schwamb 12:25
Well, this is great, because I'm just going to continue in the theme of music. And that's where my affirmation falls this week. So normally, I'm the one that I feel like is the self appointed, like curator of awesome music for our podcast and the representative of all things music, so you guys just want to up to me already, which is great. So here's my question, but and this is going to play into my information. And actually, I'm a history to ask this question now because you may answer yes. everything you just said. Randomly meeting contemporary Christian artists of some renown, randomly, like at Subway. Yeah, ridiculous. What can I say? Question. Have you ever had the opportunity to sing backup vocals on an album?
Tony Arsenal 13:05
Yes, actually have not like a popular one. But yes, I have.
Jesse Schwamb 13:11
Okay. We gotta stop there. What's your story on that?
Tony Arsenal 13:15
My one album, my choir director when I was in, like church choir when I was in high school, he had this like side band and he had our choir do like some choral music for the background on one of his songs.
Jesse Schwamb 13:30
Man just like music to me again. Alright, so here's your second chance to sing backup vocals on the album or if anybody else is listening. That hasn't done it before. Here's your first chance. I may have mentioned before it's possible. I really enjoyed this band name dens DENS, they're on facedown records. And they're what I would describe as like guitar driven post rock. They have like amazing vocal hooks, hooks really introspective music. Their lyrics are fantastic. They're Christian band and they're doing This really interesting thing, they're tracking a brand new album. And so they put out this call, and I will definitely make sure that we get this link into the notes for this particular episode. But what they're doing is they want people to sing a particular part of music that they have checked out actually will give you a scratch track and the lyrics. And then what they're asking for you to do is just to sing along to it with any recording device that you have. So where the Pro Tools garage band or just wanna use, like the voice memo function on your cell phone, that's totally fine. You send it to them, and they're going to obviously master it, put it together as part of a choir, and they are going to use it on their brand new album, including they will give you vocal credits on the track. And so I just thought that was like a really fun way to kind of crowdsource using social media to get people to sing and here's what's interesting about it is I looked at it, I'm gonna do it, you should definitely do it actually know what your wife should do it. She says,
Tony Arsenal 14:53
Yes, she would.
Jesse Schwamb 14:54
But here's the great thing about this is it's actually a fairly lengthy piece of music. It's several meters. So it's it's not like they're just asking you to sing a couple of lines, I would say it's like eight or 10 lines. So it's fantastic and really catchy. I'm really anxious to see where this fits in the song. So we'll throw it out there so that people can find the link in our show notes and then go to it.
Tony Arsenal 15:15
Jesse, you know, we don't actually do show notes, right.
Jesse Schwamb 15:20
Sorry, the show. Just this link.
Tony Arsenal 15:24
We saw we do a transcript now. So that's cool.
Jesse Schwamb 15:28
Yeah, we could I mean, I'd love to read back that whole story again about So yeah, I just thought this is a fun thing. And it's, we had a musical theme going on here. So I'm affirming this idea. And I'm affirming everybody whether you can sing or not to just go out and do it. Have a little fun and try something totally different than out of your comfort zone. And get on an album. If you've ever want to record and say like I was on that album, I sung backup vocals. Here's your chance. So check out dance. You can go to their Facebook page, you actually find this post, but we'll link to it in the show. notes. Yes, again beach just
Tony Arsenal 16:04
you know, I think that you're randomly meeting a moderately famous Christian recording artist story Trumps mine, because when you met a moderately famous recording artists you started a podcast with him.
Jesse Schwamb 16:19
That's true. So it's true.
Tony Arsenal 16:22
What's happened well, podcasts anyways.
Jesse Schwamb 16:27
Alright, so the podcast is still very much alive. We're actually working we're in the heat of putting together a episode right now. Wow. See what I did there.
Tony Arsenal 16:39
You know if anything makes me think of romance. It's Conrad. I love you caught.
Jesse Schwamb 16:47
Me. Me too. It got a little hot. We had to open the studio door. So man, you can be looking for that. It's still very much alive. It's coming. I thought you're gonna say something about like, this is a great I thought you're going to literally say I'd like to take this moment to announce my new partner. Cast with Michael TZCM throwback.
Tony Arsenal 17:04
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, so I did. I had my reform brotherhood sweatshirt, my hooded sweatshirt and I actually thought about giving it to him and asked him to check out the show. But it was like gross and sweaty from traveling and covered in cat hair from my mom's house. Sounds like this is not the way to promote our show.
Jesse Schwamb 17:24
Oh, he already listens.
Tony Arsenal 17:25
I'm sure yeah, yeah, for sure. He actually walked up to me and was like, are you Tony Arsenal? I was like, let's get a selfie. He's got a selfie on his phone now.
Jesse Schwamb 17:37
And then he was like, you fly Southwest as well.
Tony Arsenal 17:39
I know. And I was like, No, no, I just hang out in the terminal for good stories. I'm just waiting for my private jet to get filled up.
Jesse Schwamb 17:46
I'm looking for like the Delta sky lounge. I thought it was over here. So let's go into some denials. What is the name this week? You know,
Tony Arsenal 17:55
mine is a short denial. It's really straightforward. And I think probably is the same denial I had about this time last year or maybe about six months ago. I'm denying daylight saving time. Like it's just dumb, and stupid. And we should stop doing it. It's just pointless and worthless. So there's no more elaboration.
Jesse Schwamb 18:17
It's just dumb. To tell you a quick story, yes, very fast. Please do this happened to me today, which was the time that we changed the clocks. So now I'm in this I feel like we're as a society as a technologically advanced society, we're getting to this weird Limbo phase where we need to trust technology so much. And yet, I still have these misgivings about being able to trust it. And here's like a dumb example. So I had this my clock that sits on my nightstand, which also has my alarm to wake up. It's one of those clocks that like it's update about the atomic clock, you know, it has like a radio signal that it receives, but I never know if I can trust it. So what I did last night is I turned the clock back and kept my alarm at the same time. Well, overnight. What happened is, it decided it was going to adjust itself an hour anyway. And so it woke me up an hour early night. And so it went off. I hit the these buttons Stop it. My first thought was immediately, man, I'm so tired, like more tired than I thought I'd be. And I went to bed at fairly reasonable time. My second thought was, wow, I actually thought it would be a lot lighter outside since we set the clocks back. So I got up and was like doing stuff around the house before I realized I was up an hour early. And I tried to go back to sleep. So I was like, this thing is defeated me technology aided me even though I try my best to acquiesce to it.
Tony Arsenal 19:38
Yeah, it's just, there's no reason to do it. There never was a reason to do it. Honestly, I don't. I don't actually know why we started doing it. You hear people talk about it being for the farmers. It's not for the farmers. The farmers don't use alarm clocks. They wake up with the roosters, like, right. And in the era when this started, nobody used alarm clocks because they didn't exist yet. Like It was way back like 150 years ago. So I don't really don't understand why we do it. But like it we lose a lot of money be due to loss like time, it's crazy. People like are more likely to have heart attack like this is the good one where we get an extra hour of sleep. But like in the opposite one in the spring, people have more heart attacks. Like there's more traffic accidents, like energy wise, we actually get less hours of sunlight nationwide, like year round. If we didn't do or then if we did just leave it the way it was. So I'm sure that God knew what he was doing when he created the pattern of sun rising and sun falling. We don't we don't need to help him out with that.
Jesse Schwamb 20:44
So how about this? So a lot of people have contended that if we're going to do the daylight savings time, we should at least push it up. So we shouldn't be until like November before we actually go back and set the clocks back an hour. And there's been a lot of conspiracy, that it's the result of Big chocolate.
Tony Arsenal 21:01
Big chocolate.
Jesse Schwamb 21:03
Yeah, so I live in like Hershey.
Tony Arsenal 21:05
Oh like for Halloween? Yeah,
Jesse Schwamb 21:08
exactly. That makes sense. Yep. That's it's all part of like a mass conspiracy of lobbying for like, there are places that don't want to get rid of it and some that do. And there's all kinds of interest tied to when it actually happens. So big chocolate, it's no joke.
Tony Arsenal 21:22
Yeah. I just think we need to let God be God and not not try to mess with time. Let's turn this into a theological discussion. But let's i
Jesse Schwamb 21:33
was i was just not anticipating so great a quip right there. I just think we need to let God be God. Yeah, just do that. Let's
Tony Arsenal 21:41
do that. How about we find out what you're denying tonight?
Jesse Schwamb 21:44
Well, speaking of letting God be God, that was a great segue. I was I ended up watching something that my wife had on TV, and you're going to know this better than me, unfortunately. So that the last I think it's the last like Marvel movie is the end game. Or by just making that up.
Tony Arsenal 22:00
Yeah, but it's not the last Marvel movie.
Jesse Schwamb 22:03
Never there's probably a million.
Tony Arsenal 22:04
There's already been another one out since then.
Jesse Schwamb 22:07
Let's see. I can't even keep up. So was it end game is I was she was yes.
Tony Arsenal 22:11
And game.
Jesse Schwamb 22:12
Okay. So what I was thinking was one I was like, I my first thought honestly, when I came downstairs and saw it on I was like I thought was already gone. But there he was again. So I was like, Alright, so
Tony Arsenal 22:23
so. So just before you continue spoiler alert,
Unknown Speaker 22:28
just in case.
Tony Arsenal 22:30
Just in case you haven't seen the most significant movie in the last year for like six months since it came out a spoiler alert.
Jesse Schwamb 22:39
Oh, well, I'm not going to talk about the thing that happened. I won't talk about that.
Tony Arsenal 22:43
We already talked about the thing that one of the things that happened. Oh, that was like a big surprise was like a huge surprise.
Jesse Schwamb 22:50
Oh, man, I'm so sorry. Yeah. I had no idea that I just thought I ok. So then it was I should have been surprised and I was but here's what I was thinking about more was He in particular has like all these power, especially with like the gauntlet thing where he's, he's like, able to manipulate all of reality, there's like just an immense amount of power. And I was thinking about how we understand superheroes and usually we associate some kind of unique gifting or power that they have. And it's like very narrow. And here's then OSU apparently has like this broader range of powers, which includes, like, manipulating time and space and all kinds of other things. And I was just thinking, Man, I just do not in my day to day life, like on Monday or Tuesday morning, think about the amazing power that God is in that he gives to us by way of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. So I'm denying against my own lack of making that my reality that I go to those kind of movies, I see them and I think, wow, this is like exceptional. It's otherworldly, it's alien. It's unchartered. That kind of power is like, amazing to conceive of, and yet God is all of that and the bag of chips like so much more and that is for real. Yeah. And so when I'm thinking about my own spiritual condition, his ability to save me to transform me to change me that I just really don't give it enough weight in my day to day life. And so I was just that movie for some reason convicted me in that way. So I'm denying against not being cognizant of how powerful God is like, here's the one who raises the dead who redeems all things. And yeah, given his Holy Spirit to reside in me, and that should really influence and transform my behavior, it should at least transform the way I think and act. Yeah. And so I'm denying against a lack of awareness in that regard.
Tony Arsenal 24:31
Yeah, it's interesting because they actually like, like D powered the Infinity Gauntlet, in the movies, in the comics, like the like, Santos literally became more or less omnipotent. Like he could literally reshape the entire universe, like at will and and what ends up getting him in the comics. Now, this was like, the comics came out, like, I don't know, like 25 years ago. So spoiler alert, again, I guess we're alert. But like in the comics, what ended up undoing him was just pride. Like he got so sure that he could be defeated, that he like stopped paying attention. And someone like basically picked potty pick pocketed the gauntlet off of him. So like in the Marvel movies, like his influence in his ability to change things, like not only is it limited in time and space, but also like it comes at a personal cost to him. So even more so is your observation apt because Santos, like using the gauntlet hurts him like if there's a personal cost he he's physically damaged. There's an emotional toll, like God is not diminished in any sense, right? Like when he when he uses his power, he doesn't extend his power. He doesn't even extend his power. He just exercises his power.
Jesse Schwamb 25:51
Exactly.
Tony Arsenal 25:52
We're actually going to talk about that tonight, I think.
Jesse Schwamb 25:55
Yeah, that's great. So before we get into a little bit of Mike, I feel like there's one more thing that bridges both theology and music that we should probably just address. I'm surprised we got this far without any the rest bring it up. But just really quickly, we didn't talk about Kanye West at all.
Tony Arsenal 26:09
Yeah, apparently if you talk about Kanye West, so the wrong way you could like get kicked off Twitter. Really? Yeah. Apparently there's an apologist to say said and I I'm not sure that this was particularly the wisest thing, but Justin Peters, who's a kind of a discernment ministry, apologetics type guy, he sort of said, like I've been holding, I've been holding back on talking about Kanye blah, blah. He said something. And the word on the street. I don't know if it's true or not. So take it with a grain of salt. But this is the word on the street is that he got so many like hate filled letters and like harassment that he had to shut down his Twitter. Wow.
Jesse Schwamb 26:47
Yeah. That's incredible. Well, I just think I've listened to the album at all.
Tony Arsenal 26:52
No, I don't care about rap. The last the last rap song I listened to was Jesus Freak. DC talk.
Jesse Schwamb 27:02
We've come full circle.
Tony Arsenal 27:04
It's funny because I actually I, you know, I'm in the reform pub, and I actually posted a picture of me and Michael Tate. And the caption was, the whole reformed world is going crazy about Kanye West. And then I was like, and I'm sitting here in the airport going is that Michael Tate? So So Kanye West, like, I am incredibly optimistic. And actually, from an observation standpoint, I think we have every reason to be even more than like cautiously optimistic. I think we can actually I think we can actually look at the fruit that he's bearing the way that he's speaking boldly for the gospel. And I mean, even even, like certain moral things that are pretty dramatic reversals, I think for him, right. Um, I think that this is fruit bearing in keeping with repentance. That said, like the parable of the sower, or I suppose the parable of the seed might be more appropriate college. If you ignore the editorial headings, the parable of the seeds is applicable here, right? So there's there's way, right there's the seed that was cast on to the thorny ground, or onto the hard ground that springs up quickly. And does it bed doesn't put down roots. And so it seems to blossom quickly. But then in the midst of persecution or the troubles of this world, it, it falls away, right. And then there's the the seed that was sown among the thorny ground. And the thorns are things like wealth and fame and pride that choke out the growth that the seed may have had. So, in reality, we should be praying that Kanye is neither the seed on the rocky ground or the seed on the thorny ground, because he is in one of those unique positions where both of those threats are hyper real in a way that I don't think you and I, or most average Christians can even comprehend that he has some So much temptation to rely on his wealth and his prestige. And he has so much likelihood, you know, he's starting to speak out about things like abortion, which is a hot topic. But the second he speaks out against the LGBT q plus, I, whatever, lobby, they're going to come down hard and fast on top of him in a way that none of us have ever seen before. And we need to pray that the Holy Spirit sustains him, because there is a very good likelihood that he will lose everything, every worldly blessing and benefit that he's received, probably including his wife and and likely his children, he could lose that and likely will. Because that's the reality of the world we live in. So that that kind of persecution is something that most American Christians can't even comprehend. So we should be praying for him. We should be praying for his pastor. I mean, there are there are certainly reasons for concern like he seems to be sort of starting This pseudo church thing that he does, and it's really concerning to see a neophyte, sort of thrust into the spotlight thrust into sort of this informal leadership that he seems to have taken on, you know, we have a very brand new baby Christian who's being asked to give interviews about Christian faith that millions of people will watch and listen to, which is a little bit concerning. So my instinct and my impulse and I have been praying this way is to pray that God preserves him and protects him and takes him out of the spotlight in a way that protects him even more, because the spotlight is not not really a healthy place for a brand new baby Christian to be. So God seems to be using him though. I mean, there's already accounts that I'm hearing from pastors across the country where people are coming to their congregation and saying, you know, I would never have thought to go to church, but I just listened to Kanye his album, and I felt like I had to investigate it more. So it seems like the gospel is already going forth through his through his record and through his music. So we should continue need to pray that it does. But I think we have good reason to be optimistic and joyful over this though.
Jesse Schwamb 31:06
Here's all I'll say about it is everyone should just at least give the album a listen. In fact, the other night, my wife and I were sitting in the living room and we just pulled it up on amazon music and amazon music will give you the lyrics in real time. And there's no doubt just like you said, there's a dramatic reversal and the things that he's talking about. So at the end of the day, no matter where Connie is and what God is doing in his life, the album itself is intensely God glorifying. Yeah, and that alone, yes, beautiful thing. So it's worth listening to, and certainly worth worth praying for him. Yeah. Let's get into Mike which we're still Micah cast. We've spent all this wonderful time talking about music, which was great. But before we get into the passage for tonight, the little perk up we set aside, can I just give a quick update on chapter three like where we've been because we're coming to the end of it. So to give people context, this would be like the scriptural backdoor story, if you will.
Tony Arsenal 31:59
I'm previously Now previously on Michael cast
Jesse Schwamb 32:03
previously, I'm Michael cast. So we're in chapter three. And there are three prophecies in this chapter that announced the rejection and the punishment of Israel's corrupt leadership. The first is in verses one through four we've talked about, and it's the leaders treatment of the oppressed people it's like into cannibalism. The second one is the false prophets who led the people astray, and are condemned and contrasted with Micah, who delivers this true message from God. He's on point that's verses five and seven, and then chapter in verse eight. And unless we're getting into now, is the corrupt political and religious leaders are condemned, and their complacency is castigated. So this rounds out verses nine through 12, the rest of chapter three, would you be willing to read those beautiful verses?
Tony Arsenal 32:50
Sure thing, starting in chapter three, verse nine. Hear this you heads of the house of Jacob and rulers of the house of Israel, who detect Justice and make crooked all that is straight, who build Zion with blood and Jerusalem with iniquity. Its heads give judgment for a bribe. Its priests Teach for a price. Its profits practice divination for money. Yet they lean on the Lord and say is not the Lord in the midst of us. No disasters shall come upon us. Therefore because of you, Zion shall be plowed as a field. Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins and the mountain of the house, a wooded height.
Jesse Schwamb 33:37
German dramatic pause,
Tony Arsenal 33:38
dramatic pause. So, you know, this, this section here. You know, as you said, the first kind of condemnation Oracle is targeted specifically at the political and judicial rulers and leaders of Israel. The second is sort of targeted specifically at the religious the specifically the False Prophets, but kind of the religious leadership of Israel. And so this is kind of a summary judgment and a final proclamation right. The first, the first phrase of this here you hear this is kind of like when the judge comes into the courtyard or into the courtroom and delivers the verdict, right. So Micah is coming in. This is set up and established as kind of a courtroom trial scene. The charges have been read, the evidence has been brought forth. And now Micah comes forth on behalf of the judge who is delivering his verdict. And so he reiterated, just like in a trial, right when they come in, the judge says, john smith, you have been charged with the crime of murder in the first degree. And then he says, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what say you and then they deliver the verdict. And this is what's going on is Micah is now on behalf of the judge of the universe, delivering the covenant verdict and verdict is unequivocably guilty, right? And so now we're into, we move in, in the back half of these verses, we move into the sentencing phase of this condemnation Oracle. And it's not pretty at all
Jesse Schwamb 35:12
right. And what really has come out to me through these verses that it's a personal concern to myself, is the way in which as you said, God is able to review this evidence where he's able to weigh out the arguments for and against the vert that's being announced here. Because it seems to me that what Micah really is emphasizing and most of these verses is that the sin of man does not work the righteousness of God. So even when men do that thing, which in itself is good, but do it for unrighteous reasons, it becomes an abomination both to God and to man. So here we have this example of where faith rests in the Lord as the source foundation. But presumption only leans upon the Lord like as if it were a prop, which is saying there, and it uses God to meet some kind of ulterior motive or leverages him for some kind of selfish purpose. And this is where I feel like that sense of personal conviction that Yeah, once again, it's not just about what you do. But the attitude, the heart attitude and what you do it once again, here's intent, always proceeding content.
Tony Arsenal 36:19
Yeah, yeah. So you know, there's a couple interesting features of the text that we should comment on. Right. So in verse 11, the English the English translators have followed Standard English, grammatical conventions, right? So subject, the subject, verb, predicate, right subject, verb comment. And so it's heads is the subject. Give judgment is the verb and then for a bribe is the preposition phrase that explains it. But in Hebrew, it actually places that preposition or phrase before the verb which is the emphatic, an emphatic structure. So so it would better read it something along the lines of its leaders for a bribe, they give judgment. It's prescribed for a price. They teach its profits for money. They practice divination. And so there's this threefold repetition, showing that it's actually the greed of these leaders. Because it all three of those in that in that triplet, they're all three of them are related to the proper role of the finger and question or the grouping question. So it's right. It's right and good for the leaders to give judgment. It's right and good for the priests to teach. And it's right and good for the prophets. The there's some disagreement, whether this is practice divination, and sort of a general sense that they are practicing divination and that they're getting divine messages. That's the position Calvin takes that this is, this is actually a legitimate function of a prophet is to practice, practice divination, right? You think of like Joseph who says I'm able to practice divination when he's meeting his brothers. You know, he's not lying to them. He does practice divination in a certain sense. And so so Calvin wants to say this practicing divination is a legitimate function. There are others that would say this is almost mocking the prophets, because it's comparing them to pagan practices of divination. I actually would take Calvin's view because it it maintains that parallel ism. But either way, these functions that the the leaders, the priests and the prophets are doing, they should be done out of a sense of justice and a sense of desire to follow God a sense of an understanding of their proper role in society and in God's economy. But instead, now it's done for money. So the leaders take a bribe and deliver the judgment they've been told to give. So they fought actually forfeit the authority of their office because they're no longer in charge. It's actually the ritual in charge. Now, the priests no longer teach sound doctrine. They teach doctrine. Their wealthy patrons are telling them to teach. The prophets no longer deliver God's message, but they deliver a message that will tickle the people and keep their stomachs full. So it's important to see, you know, even though we we have talked about different aspects of what these different groups are doing, it's important to see that ultimately, the sin that has occurred is an abandonment of their proper exercise of their office in favor of financial renumeration or financial compensation that just is ungodly to the core.
Jesse Schwamb 39:35
And the irony here is that they don't even realize that there's been a perversion of function, right? Because when they say, Will God really harm us? what they're trying to do is leverage the fact that we're doing these good things, but we're doing them in an unrighteous way, but But still, they're good things and we are God's people. So therefore, by some kind of weird extension of that logic, we should be totally fine. So this idea that he brings in of Zion being built up with blood, which again, is just this really grotesque image. Even in that verse, you have this idea of it. Micah moves from using different pronouns like he has day. And that's a change from the personal pronoun of you, right verse the proceeds in chapter chapter in verse nine. So the third person there puts even like these people to like a greater distance as a strange from God, it's literally whosoever builds, its singular. Yeah, so this is kind of this really direct way of addressing these leaders. And when I was looking at this in respect to like, what the other prophets are saying both respect to Jews, Jerusalem at the time, and also how often God has had to bring this message against his people. And so I looked at his email 27 which reads this way. It's officials as Jerusalem within it are like wolves tearing the prey, shedding blood destroying lives, to get dishonest gain. How crazy is that? Like? We're talking about A complete destruction of people, in other words to get dishonest gain. And I think what we have to understand is the destruction that's happening here. The sickness, the disease that we've been talking about all throughout this series of Micah cast is, in fact, this destruction that's happening. It's not just bodily destruction, it's also a spiritual decay, which they are promoting in promulgating, by way of this type of behavior. It's dangerous, in every possible way on every possible level to the greatest magnitude.
Tony Arsenal 41:27
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's, it's important to note, you have to read all the profits, kind of in concert with each other. Right? Because we remarked a little bit in our very introductory one here, and we haven't come back to it and we may not but Micah and Isaiah very much function as partners in terms of the way that their content is unfolded. But just because Micah and Isaiah are very closely linked, doesn't mean that passages out of Jeremiah and Ezekiel And other prophets don't inform here for us what's going on. So for example, at the end of verse 11, here it says, they lean on the Lord and say is not the Lord in the midst of us, no disaster shall come upon us. This is exactly the same situation that Jeremiah is commenting on, in the early part of his book, where he talks about how the people go in, and they say, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord. And they're using it almost like home base in a game of tag where they go into the temple and they go, Well, we've got the temple, God's name dwells here, surely, he's not gonna he's not going to allow tragedy to be falling because he would be allowing that to be fall on his own the place where his own name dwells. It's not it's actually kind of like this weird perverted version of the inner sanctuary prayer that Moses praise. Were in the desert. He says, Lord, you you, you are not a God who's capricious and why should your name be defamed? Because these people have sinned? Why should the people look at them and say he led them into the desert Destroy them? Well, they're they're kind of doing the same thing. They're going like, well, the Lord won't destroy us because that will look good for him. And what God says, and I read this in my my devotions, I don't remember exactly where it was. But where God, what God says is basically, I'm going to take that shame, because the right thing to do is to punish you. And there's a certain element, I mean, that that idea right there for shadows of the cross and really significant ways. And if this was Jeremiah cast, then maybe we would dig into that more. But it's a it's important to look at the other prophets and understand and we'll, we're going to talk about this because I had this like, brain melting moment this morning when I was doing my devotions. And then when I was reading and preparing for this, there is such other harmony and unity across the prophets, and that other harmony and unity across the prophets is completely 100% harmonious with the pictures and understanding of judgment that the rest of the Scripture gives from the very beginning of Genesis to the very End of revelation that anyone who would look at this and read it and understand what's actually being said, and say that this is not a divide book is out of their mind entirely. Right?
Jesse Schwamb 44:11
Yes. Just as physically speaking, it's the impossibilities. Yeah. It's, it's to a degree, that's impossible that you'd have this much coordination. Yeah, among this many different authors. So let's get into that, because I want to hear more about that and the observation you have. And let me kind of throw out like you just said, some where we see this common thread throughout all the prophets. And as you were saying that what really struck me was this sense of the difference between Moses and the people, once again, in terms of like, leveraging this promise with their innocence, they're leveraging God's promises against him, right? And the thing is, when Moses does that, he's doing that with righteous intent, right? And and so then God is going to honor that of course, and here we see the exact opposite thing. So by way of confirmation, here's what Isaiah writes in the first chapters in his book, this is verses 21 through 23. Just so we can see the continuity what you're talking about. He writes how the faithless city has become a whore. She who was full of justice, righteousness lodged in her but now murderers. Your silver has become dross your best wine mixed with water. Your princes are rebels and companions of thieves. Everyone loves a bribe and runs after gifts. They do not bring justice to the fatherless. And the widow's cause does not come to them. Yeah. So what a wonderful like mix of all these kind of metaphors, like your wine is mixed down. Who wants that nonsense like nobody wants to drink that stuff? The righteousness that was once a part of who you are now you're just murderers or killers. That's all you care about. The Silver that was pure and beautiful, practical, useful, a glorious treasure. Now it's just become like all of the waste that's in the silver that will will you want to purify out you become the exact opposite thing that required and so in that situation, you can see how God would say, I'm going to bring punishment because that is what is Actually just in this situation, there are no rules in the sense that because you are my people, I will fail to punish you. In fact, I think it's the other way around the requirement is be holy as God is holy. So here you have this continuity where, you know, all throughout the Old Testament and even in our own contemporary error, people say like, Well, God won't punish me is not going to get after me for that, like, I'm still doing the things that he would like me to do. And it's this, God is always saying, Look at Shiloh See what I did there? Yeah, I will do it again. I will do it again. And in many ways, like you said, He's done it on the cross, and exemplary way, but in a way that transforms all of history. But what I'm really curious to get to what like what was like the mind melting into textual thing that you came across? Yeah, to this passage.
Tony Arsenal 46:45
So this is going to take a little bit of setup. All right, give me the back. So I'm going to read a bunch of verses and then I'm going to show you how this ties together. Right. So the first verse is Genesis one verse To it says the earth was without form and void and darkness was over the face of the deep and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And then I'm going to go to Genesis seven. Let my logos catch up here. Genesis seven, nope, not seven
Unknown Speaker 47:24
must be eight.
Jesse Schwamb 47:26
We need like Bible turning page.
Tony Arsenal 47:28
Yeah. Verse. Let's start at verse six of chapter eight of Genesis. At the end of the 40 days, no open up the window of the ark that he had made and sent forth the raven and went to and fro into the water church right up from the earth. Then he sent forth a dove from him to see if the water subsided from the face of the ground. But the dove found no place to set her foot and she returned to him and the waters were still on the face of the whole earth. Okay, so. So in Genesis one, the earth, the heavens and the earth aren't created by God in Genesis one one and inverse two, what will we see as this unformed sort of mass of chaos, right? It's this unformed, empty, empty void, that is said to be kind of this watery depth, and the Spirit of God is hovering over it. Genesis seven, or sorry, Genesis eight, after the judgment. There's there's this imagery again that there's the water over the whole face of the earth. And now we have a dove, which we know becomes a spirit as a symbol of the Holy Spirit later in Scripture, who's now flying to and fro over the earth to sort of assess the situation. And this is where, in my morning devotions, this kind of rocked my world. So we're going to jump all the way forward to Jeremiah chapter four. And we're going to start in verse 23. And it says, I looked on the RFID Jeremiah, just a little setup. Jeremiah is now reflecting on a vision that God gave him of the future coming down Judgment of particularly Jerusalem. And he says, I looked on the earth and behold, it was without form, and void, and to the heavens, and they had no light. I looked to the mountains and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro. And then verse 26, I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the Lord before his fierce anger. For thus says the Lord, the whole land shall be a desolation, yet I will not make a full end. And so in Genesis one we have, God creates the heaven in the earth Genesis to its without form and void. The only other place that that combination of words which if you're interested in the Hebrew is Tova vo who, which is just a beautiful, poetic way to say things. The only other place that that combination of words is used is in Jeremiah 23 here and so the state, the form of the earth of the unfold chaos of creation prior to God's organizing, and sort of purifying work, purifying, not in the sense of removing corruption, but purifying in the sense of making functional or bringing form. That's the state of the earth prior to God's creative act. And now here it is used again to describe his act after judgment. And what we see here this, this was the thing that just melted my whole brain is the act of judgment that God engages in, in the flood is an act of D creation, right? So he takes this formed world, that was the law of the dry land was separated, and he opens up the windows of heaven the windows in the firmament, right when he formed the the waters and he made it habitable. He placed this firmament between the waters above and the waters below that that brought order to this chaotic world. He undoes that in the flood by removing or taking the windows and open them in the firmament. So what we see is that judgment fundamentally in the view of the prophets here in Jeremiah, judgment fundamentally, is God withholding his organizing and restraining presence from from from the world and allowing chaos to take over again. Right, so now let's go to Micah 312, which is from our passage, let me get their
Jesse Schwamb 51:29
page turning Bible music I
Tony Arsenal 51:30
know seriously. And this is where he says, He says, Therefore, because of you, right leaders of church Jerusalem, right? And so we have this double logical explanation therefore, right because of everything we said in verses nine through 11. Therefore, because of you leaders of Jerusalem, I, the Lord will make Zion a plowed as a field right? The same imagery, we saw in Jeremiah, that Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins and the mountains, a house of a wooded height. Right? So, so God is taking what was this civilized, ordered structure, this place that had been cultivated and refined and made into a civilization. He's de creating it in judgment. And so so he does that by withdrawing his restraining presence and allowing evil to take over. And what do we see when we when we talk about the Apostle Paul, Romans one, right, he gives people over to their own judgment. So so we have that lined up, we go all the way to the book of Revelation, what happens in the final eschatological ordering of things, we see the New Jerusalem, which is a perfectly proportioned cube, float down out of heaven and take permanent residence on the earth, never again to have chaos restored to the earth. So from very start of the Scriptures, all the way through the prophets all the way through Paul. All the way to Revelation, we have this consistent understanding of what judgment is that God, when the people violate His covenant, what he does is he withdraws his his protection, he withdraws his ordering, in a sense, he starts to no longer uphold the orderliness of the being of what he's extended right in him and we live and move and have our being. Well, when God withdraws that ordering presence, things begin to descend into chaos. And that's what judgment is. This is the consistent picture of judgment throughout the scriptures, and the prophets across the board, paint this picture that what God does. It's not as though he's passive in it. It's not as though he simply lets what was going to happen happen. But what he actively does is withholds His grace, withholds his kindness, withhold his protection, and allows the chaotic forces of evil to do what chaotic forces Evil do, and that brings judgment upon his people. And it was just amazing to me to see, you know, Micah was brought into the presence of God and given this Oracle, Jeremiah, when he saw that the earth was formless and void, he was being given a glimpse of God's revelation in a way that you and I probably until we pass into glory will never understand what it's like to have that kind of direct, unmitigated access to God. It's just this consistent picture throughout Scripture. And Micah here is no different.
Jesse Schwamb 54:36
Yeah, that's a beautiful observation. To me. What I see here is something that I can only describe by borrowing terms that I know from economics that describe capitalism, which is I think what we're seeing is God's creative destruction. Yeah, that there is a passive it to what God is doing but it's active if that makes right.
Tony Arsenal 54:55
No, it does and
Jesse Schwamb 54:55
he he is applying a curse. He is applying a judgment and application of that judgment is in the allowance of an extreme amount of evil to basically habits away with his people, at least in this particular sense. Yeah. And that's exactly what we see. What's interesting is the imagery that Micah draws out, shows in some ways, how dramatic it is, how weighty God's judgment isn't, and how pervasive and how long lived it is. So, of course, this is all fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, right? But think about what it would be like if you have a facade, a building, just you know, in terms of the physicality in order for it to be overgrown with shrubbery, it's not only has to be destroyed, but completely uprooted. I mean, the ground almost has to be completely turned over, right. And so here we're talking about, it's not just like, you know, you're all going to have to leave, you're going to get out, they'll set it on fire, but we're talking about like a complete wiping out. And in many ways, that's what God's talking about with his entire people here, that there's going to be a remnant that is preserved, but God Salaam as they know it, because of all the things that will happen, will be so undone that it will be unrecognizable by any kind of historical standard. And that's exactly what happened. So, if sacred places are polluted by sin, and this is always God's modus operandi, if sacred places are polluted by sin, and then includes You and I, they will be wasted and ruined by the judgments of God. Yeah. And so you're right, that there's a consistent message from the beginning of the Scriptures all the way throughout to the end, that that is what exactly is going to happen like, in other words, the protection of God's people is for God's people. But we define that in a strictly Romans kind of way where that is those whom God has regenerated call to himself for God's people, not those merely who tried to appropriate God, or some kind of works of God for their own purposes. They will find themselves early unprotected and yeah.
Tony Arsenal 56:50
Yeah, you know, what I think is really beautiful. And this is where I think we see the gospel in these judgment articles. Right. So going back to Jeremiah a little bit more is, Jeremiah looks and he sees this unformed, chaotic world. And he looks up and he sees darkness in the sky. Well what happens on an end? He says, the mountains begin to shake. Well, what happens on the day of the crucifixion? Right? Right that Yeah, the mountains begin to shake. That darkness that Jeremiah sees, is no longer hovering over to the people. But now it is hovering over the broken, broken, crucified, naked, shamed man on a cross who has been destroyed for the sins of his people. And so that darkness no longer is a judgment, but now is a sign of the severity of God's wrath which has been taken by Christ. And so now Now we look forward to the day when we no longer need a sun. When the fact that there are no sky, no stars in the sky, will no longer be attentive. terrifying thing to us. But we'll be okay because the Lord is our light. Right? So so we no longer look to the day where the temple has been destroyed. And as the Jewish people had to wonder and re kind of reinvent Judaism, because they couldn't have access to God's presence without a temple. Now we look at the book of Revelation, and we see that there is no temple because the Lord is the temple, because we have direct access to the Lord, we no longer need this Caltech apparatus of the temple and the sacrificial system, because Christ is now the temple, right? He has tabernacle among us, and then we will one day dwell with him and glory. So so we see, in a in a real sense, we see all of the judgment that happens in the prophets, all the judgment that is meted out against Israel is flipped around and that the curses of the covenant of works become the blessings of the covenant of grace in a certain size because everything that we would lose if We don't obey the covenant of works, which we don't all have that we gain the opposite blessings in the New Jerusalem because of God's gracious covenant with Christ first and foremost. And then with those who are united to him by faith,
Jesse Schwamb 59:15
we can't under emphasize or underweight that kind of judgment that happens in the New Testament on the cross, because there's a tendency to really focus on the fact that the Scriptures say explicitly, like Jesus gives up his life that here we have a manifestation of God's love for us, and that while we were sinners, He sent His Son to die for us. All of that is, of course, absolutely true. But this weird juxtaposition, this false dichotomy of the Old Testament where we find what here's the God of judgment, and the New Testament, here's the God of extreme love. There was an intense amount of judgment that happened on the cross that really was the culmination or the wrapping up. Even all this stuff in the Old Testament, almost that all of what we're talking about is itself kind of like a shadow of the judgment that is to come the final judgment that That sets everything straight. Because at the end of the day, even with the judgment here, there was still such a barrier, there was still the sin that separated, that things were left undone, people were still bound up in chains. And so really, that doesn't change until Christ comes. And he dies on the cross. And so what's odd to me is for those who would argue, well, here we have, again, the Old Testament where God is all judgment. Yeah, the book of Jonah, where Jonah is just like a whiner. He's like, I knew you were going to be super gracious. And that's why I didn't want to go to Nineveh. And then you get to the New Testament, and you have Jesus crying out in the garden, and he's not crying out, because he fears some kind of physical death. I think to the contrary, how many have come after him, who have gladly gone to their desk to be persecuted and killed for Christ. Instead, what we have here is he is aware of the separation that's about to take place, something that he's never experienced before, and that is going to be the blessing that comes by way where the curse is broken. This is a gospel good news. like you'd never graduate from that to your point. I mean, yeah, how awesome that the more we study the Scriptures than where we marinate and pick ourselves into them, that we find that not only is the message consistent, but it just keeps drawing us back to the gospel is good news all the time and all the time in every way. The gospel is really good news.
Tony Arsenal 1:01:19
Yeah. And you know, this is why we should study the prophets, because in in a very significant way. The judgment that falls down upon the people of Israel for their sin is a a tiny, miniscule version of the eternal judgment, that all of
Jesse Schwamb 1:01:45
us exactly.
Tony Arsenal 1:01:46
And so, yes, we should look at the law to see how far how far short we have fallen of God's perfect holy standard. And yes, we can look at the foretold curses In the deterministic code, right, we can look at the the sections in Deuteronomy 24, and following that show what is to come. But it's not really until we get to the profits, that we see the depth of the judgment that God is going to pour out on Jerusalem. And here's the kicker, that is a tiny foretaste of the eternal judgment of the wicked. And so, so we really want to get to the law, you want to you want to crush someone with the law, bring them to the prophets. And the beauty of the prophets is that it's not just crushing them with the law, but it's never very far in the profits until you get to the hope of the gospel. Right. So we're going to come in next week, just a little sneak peek. Spoiler alert, I guess. We're going to get to the the coming of the gracious Lord, who saves his people and the next verse here, but in a very real sense, Micah is doing this log gospel approach to evangelism where he's saying, look, all of you people are wicked and terrible, and you've all sinned. And this is what's coming to you. But, but God, who is rich in mercy, right, we could, we could probably take something right out of a fusion just swap right in here. But God who is rich in mercy because of his great love for you, which he has in Christ, we have to remember that any grace that is shown in the Old Testament is grace that is shown because of Christ. So it's not just that God decided to be gracious, he did decide to be gracious, but he decided to be gracious to people in Christ. We can't lose sight of that, and the prophets just because that phrase isn't there. We do see glimpses of it here and there, that there's a coming mediator that there's a coming righteous one. But we have to remember that the grace that when we get to verse four, one next week, and it says it shall come to pass in the latter days, the grace that is shown to those in the latter days, whether it's eschatological latter days, or whether it's the latter days of the exile when they return to the land, all of that grace is purchased by Christ on the cross, even if it's purchased in advance.
Jesse Schwamb 1:04:10
Hey, man, see that? thing? I mean, honestly, it makes me laugh because it's it's so otherworldly. It's so alien that it's almost too good to be true. I know only way it could be true. is if it comes from God Himself. Yeah, of course it does. So yeah, like we should wrap this up, I think kind of by saying like, if we take this full circle, let me just draw us back to where we kind of started in some ways. How do I know that it's possible that somebody like Kanye West could be a Christian? The reason I know is because I am the worst sinner that I know. Yeah, God saved me. So the fact that we are made a new creation in Jesus Christ, even though we deserve the wrath that we're talking about here, and I like what you said. I'm going to summarize that saying it's kind of like an appetizer wrath. Yeah, really, that's a judgment that we deserve, but it's just an amuse boosh. if you will. weights of what should be put on upon us. And so I think you know that verse and Titus, he saved us, not because of works done in righteousness, which is when you're trying to be done here, but according to his own mercy, yeah, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewal of the Holy Spirit, man, I hope people like our Stoke design right now. Yes. Hear that again and think about it a new.
Tony Arsenal 1:05:23
Yeah. Well, Jesse, I'm excited to get to the next passage. So let's just go No, we should probably stop. And we'll close this out just by saying like, pray, pray for the people in your lives who are Christians pray for Kanye. Pray for his wife. I mean, it's not the case that any one sinner is more valuable to God than any other. But it is the case that sometimes one sinner who's redeemed has more impact than another sinner who's redeemed and suffered someone like Kanye West and Kim Kardashian to to have both of them come to true genuine saving faith in Christ and to become passionate about sharing the gospel. They have an influence and a platform and the ability to reach a whole sector of society that quite frankly, it's like an unreal people group at this point. I actually don't even know who it was that shared the gospel with Kanye. And there's something actually really beautiful about that, that like whoever it was, that shared the gospel with him, that that that was the human means by which God brought this about is anonymous for the most part, or maybe I just haven't run into it. That's actually a really beautiful picture of the gospel. Because that that's what it is like we share the gospel, not to make our own name great, but to save sinners and to make God's name great. And and regardless of whether this is a genuine conversion or whether it turns out to be serious. God's name has been made great through this. Like there's no denying that his name has been lifted up and elevated, you know there was that I forget his name, but that British guy who did the, the airplane karaoke thing with him, did you see that interview? Yes, like that guy was exposed to the gospel, and then then all of his audiences exposed to the gospel. And like you could see that he was genuinely genuinely joyful, hearing and singing these gospel songs on this plane, like he couldn't hide the fact that he was experiencing joy, by being in the presence of all these people seeing God's praises. And you could see that he thought the whole thing was a little bit weird. And maybe I'm reading into this but you can also see that he was really like genuinely curious what was going on. So pray for God he Kanye, pray for his protection, pray for the gospel to go forth. We know that it will but pray that it'll go forth powerfully through Kenya and pray that he will not become a false convert.
Jesse Schwamb 1:07:56
One of the things we can at least say for certain about this podcast is It's really been the definitive podcast about Michael Tate.
Tony Arsenal 1:08:04
Yes. And Kanye West. I actually haven't heard a podcast about Kanye West.
Jesse Schwamb 1:08:09
Oh, really? I'm only he's like everywhere right now. But I really think if somebody knows Michael Tate, well, sorry, you do know Michael J. So maybe you could just get him to come on and talk to us.
Tony Arsenal 1:08:18
I think we should try to see if we should try to get Kanye on the podcast.
Jesse Schwamb 1:08:22
Oh, yeah. Well, let's just do that. I feel like Kanye,
Tony Arsenal 1:08:27
let me let me work on that. Well, I have my people call his people. I don't have their people. I'm my people. I'm gonna have to call him Does anyone have Kanye cell phone number?
Jesse Schwamb 1:08:36
Somebody got. We're calling on the Brotherhood. We need Kanye. Somebody's got to have a connection. Somebody has to get a connection. I will jump in. He met him at a subway.
Tony Arsenal 1:08:45
Yeah, I will give 100% credit to someone who gets Kanye West on this podcast. You'll get a free beer Stein for that.
Jesse Schwamb 1:08:52
First, absolutely. For sure.
Tony Arsenal 1:08:55
Well, Jesse, I'm going to preempt you because I could tell you we're going for it. Until next time. Honor everyone. Love the Brotherhood.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai